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  1. #1
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    Green mambas vs rank turners - Which are worse for cricket?

    Which of these pitches is bad for cricket??

    Subcontinent teams struggle on swinging pitches but even home sides have a tough time IE England South Africa and New Zealand. Yet on rank turner's more often than not subcontinent teams manage a decent score and blow away the SENA countries for fun.

    On a green mamba bowlers need to have some skill in swinging the ball yet on rank turner's you see part timers turning the ball square.

    Personally I prefer the swinging/seaming pitches over the rank turner's, your thoughts???

  2. #2
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    I like England pitches. I love seeing the ball swing/seam. It makes tests matches much more interesting compared to the flat tracks where batsmen keep on piling up the runs, which makes test matches very boring. Matches like these make you interested in every delivery. I like seeing scores around 250-350 on average, occasional 107s are also fun to watch or 363s.

  3. #3
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    I'd go green mambas. As much fun as it is to watch batsman go off, especially if they're Pakistani, at the very least you'd get results on swinging/seaming pitches.

  4. #4
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    an extreme of both is bad IMO, but a pitch should have some greenery at least on the first day so there could be some decent seam bowling.

  5. #5
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    green mambas is better

    if you are supremely skilled you can negotiate them

    in case of rank turners no one, including the spinner, knows which way the ball is going

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    green mambas is better

    if you are supremely skilled you can negotiate them

    in case of rank turners no one, including the spinner, knows which way the ball is going
    It's the same case with seam. It can go either way.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

  7. #7
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    Green pitches look better visually

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    It's the same case with seam. It can go either way.
    required reaction time against a raging seaming wicket is way less than a rank turner and the deviation is much more in the latter.

  9. #9
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    As @Slog mentioned sometimes the spinner batsman or wicketkeeper doesn't have a clue what the ball will do.

    You have spinners who are glorified darters away from Asia who become second coming of warne in asia.

    Also teams opening bowling with spinners on first day of test match not a very pretty sight compared to a fast bowler steaming in with 5 slips waiting to snap a chance.

    Atleast on seaming/swinging wicket there's a chance the pitch will ease up slightly and there will be a contest between bat and ball but on rank turner's the pitch gets worser every session.

    Englands pitches are by far the best as they have a bit in it for everyone. The 2005 ashes you had swing (Hoggard) spin (warne) reverse swing (Simon Jones) bounce (Flintoff) seam (mcgrath).

    Raging turner's are getting boring now results are so predictable in the subcontinent when the SENA nations tour.

  10. #10
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    @MMHS @Junaids Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmirilion View Post
    @MMHS @Junaids Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

    It's more difficult to bat on rank turners than firm, greenest of wickets with bounce. More than movement, batsmen are in more discomfort from uneven bounce in general, because movement is predictable, uneven bounce isn't. Cricket being a side on game, batsmen's balance is better against side wise movement rather than vertical unexpected movement, because balance comes from footwork - if a ball kicks from a front foot length or shoots from back-foot length .... you know, it destroys the confidence of entire batting line up.

    On a big seeming wickets, good batsmen can leave lots of balls on length and can use few other tactics like taking guard at advanced position (Kohli was standing a foot in front at Lord's), which often forces bowlers to shorten length little, or taking guard at off-stick line (so that he can take the impact on pad outside line on playing shots) - result is less movement and often ball raising above bail height, or bowler missing line. If you bring WK up to force batsmen to go back (behind popping crease), it's a major risk of missing/dropping edges. Also, on a green tracks, you need to keep lots of catching fielders, allowing batsmen lots of space for % shots. Once set, a top batsman can play meaningful innings on his batting merit even on the greenest of wickets.

    Often rank turners are under prepared tracks and extremely dry from the start (otherwise it won't turn sharp from Day 1) - apart from sharp turn, it results in two more challenges - often wickets start to "kick" or "die" very early, means, from same spot one ball can jump & very next one shoot; batsmen's even best footwork is compromised. Then, a rank turning wicket hardly can get better with duration, it remains same or most cases disintegrates further, therefore no batsman is set on such wicket irrespective of duration in middle, you can't back your defensive techniques to survive.

    Besides, on rank turners, batsman can't stand outside popping crease as WKs are up against spinners, and it's extremely difficult to score because of field placings. Often 8 fielders are used at catching spots on green tracks (ENG yesterday put 5 slips, a gully, and a short mid-wicket and a short cover, leaving point open). On rank turners, most captains use 3-3-3 field setting - 3 in close catching, 3 in inner ring or single saving/close catching spots and 3 on line; it's almost impossible to go after spinners against such fielding.

    To explain fielding impact, think about this game. What ENG set at Lord's yesterday, on a rank turner, field placings against a right hander for Offie should be like 3-6: a slip, silly point and deep mid-off in offside encouraging him to play inside out drives against viciously truing ball; and on leg side a leg slip, forward short leg, in between deep squire leg on line to block sweep, short mid wicket, deep mid on & a fielder floating at 45 metres on conventional mid-wicket. Same field for a Leggi or SLAO will be 5-4, with 2 men on slip/gully, short cover, sweeper cover, deep mid-off and on leg side a forward short leg, a fine leg at 45 degree saving single ( at catching miscued top edges on sweep, one man on line in between these 2 at long leg and a widish mid-on at 25 metres to encourage batsmen going over the leg side against turning ball - it's near impossible to score even at 3 rate and survive, unless bowlers don't bowl absolute long-hop or full toss.

    The 3rd factor is, on green tracks, basically you are killing spin attack - finger spinners might not even come into play (Today, Ashwin came probably after 40 overs); but on dry rank turners, it's a double edged sword because reverse swing comes into equation.

    Personally, I don't like any. Playing on "Confirm result" wicket actually makes the game lottery for batting, while it hinders the development of bowlers. Test games should be played on wickets which should need good bowling & catching to get 20 wickets - a close draw is a great result as well. True, firm wicket with good, even bounce and some dry cracks on it so that spinners can come on to play from Day 3 (& bit reverse as well), while batsmen gets full value for timing & placement. In olden days, I liked the Oval & Adelaide wicket most, while from subcontinent old Eden wicket offered everything for everyone over 5 days, including a lighting fast outfield - you can expect 7/8 wickets and 300+ scores in a days game.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    It's the same case with seam. It can go either way.
    Not really

    Any random pie chucker becomes a beast on dust bowls. Recent examples would include Harmer from SA in India or even O'Keefe for that matter

    But not any seamer off the block has same impact no matter how green the pitch is. Overhead conditions can help swing but even there in my experience there is more skill involved

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Not really

    Any random pie chucker becomes a beast on dust bowls. Recent examples would include Harmer from SA in India or even O'Keefe for that matter

    But not any seamer off the block has same impact no matter how green the pitch is. Overhead conditions can help swing but even there in my experience there is more skill involved
    Not sure I entirely agree here.

    The likes of Woakes, Stokes etc. are unplayable in these green conditions but are not world class bowlers by any stretch of the imagination.

    I feel like if any medium pacer puts in a good length on green / overcast wickets - he will be rewarded against Asian batsman who usually struggle against lateral movement

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmirilion View Post
    Which of these pitches is bad for cricket??

    Subcontinent teams struggle on swinging pitches but even home sides have a tough time IE England South Africa and New Zealand. Yet on rank turner's more often than not subcontinent teams manage a decent score and blow away the SENA countries for fun.

    On a green mamba bowlers need to have some skill in swinging the ball yet on rank turner's you see part timers turning the ball square.

    Personally I prefer the swinging/seaming pitches over the rank turner's, your thoughts???
    There is no such thing as a swinging pitch. The amount of grass has nothing to do with orthodox swing. You could have lush grass and it will still go gunbarrel straight through the air. There could be no grass and it will swing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmirilion View Post
    Which of these pitches is bad for cricket??

    Subcontinent teams struggle on swinging pitches but even home sides have a tough time IE England South Africa and New Zealand. Yet on rank turner's more often than not subcontinent teams manage a decent score and blow away the SENA countries for fun.

    On a green mamba bowlers need to have some skill in swinging the ball yet on rank turner's you see part timers turning the ball square.

    Personally I prefer the swinging/seaming pitches over the rank turner's, your thoughts???
    First of all, there hasnt been a green mamba in England for India, lets get that out of the day. The Lord's pitch had some live grass but nothing eye popping, the overcast conditions however allowed swing but even then, apart from that ripper from Curran, none of it was so wild that a batsman could not even get ab at on it. The Indians were let down by limited skill and even more limited application.

  16. #16
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    As long as the pitches aren't too extreme, I don't mind either.

  17. #17
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    England pitches are one of the best in the world.. England is one of my favourite places to watch test cricket in..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Not really

    Any random pie chucker becomes a beast on dust bowls. Recent examples would include Harmer from SA in India or even O'Keefe for that matter

    But not any seamer off the block has same impact no matter how green the pitch is. Overhead conditions can help swing but even there in my experience there is more skill involved
    Plenty of average seamers have had their days on green wickets. Grandhomme against us for example.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Plenty of average seamers have had their days on green wickets. Grandhomme against us for example.
    Talking about average seamers...


    You're one microscopic cog in his catastrophic plan, designed and directed by his red right hand.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    required reaction time against a raging seaming wicket is way less than a rank turner and the deviation is much more in the latter.
    Other way around. The ball is deviating at 135ks compared to 90ks. You can skip down the track, take a long stride and smother the ball, sweep, etc. against spinners but you can't do that against seam. There's no time for it.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.


  21. #21
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    Doesn’t swing depend on climate conditions like clouds and dampness in air rather than grass?

    OP should know that.

    Green pitches means nothing if there is no cloud cover.

  22. #22
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    I hope this thread is not based on this game. The pitch is fine. The weather conditions are making the difference. But not so bad thah you get bowled out for 107

  23. #23
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    I prefer green pitches but not to the point where you win the toss and win the match.

    Here at Lord's if anything it was the overhead conditions and the rain that did the damage.

    The most harmful pitches for Test cricket are the dead drop in wickets in Australia we're seeing recently where even guys like Mitch Marsh racks up 150 and scores of 500 are par with no real bounce, lateral movement or spin on offer. The opposition then inevitably crumbles under scoreboard pressure.
    Last edited by Markhor; 12th August 2018 at 23:34.

  24. #24
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    pattas


    The only disability in life is a bad attitude. -Scott Hamilton

  25. #25
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    Neither. There are better spinners these days than there are pacers, so rank turners become really diificult to bat on. But i would go with rank turners because unlike green mambas, rank turners become unplayable after second or third day. But on green wickets, if you get dismissed cheaply in the first innings, which is usually the case these days, the result becomes predictable on the very first day.
    Don't think a team can come back and win from getting all out for 100.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Doesn’t swing depend on climate conditions like clouds and dampness in air rather than grass?

    OP should know that.

    Green pitches means nothing if there is no cloud cover.
    Correct! Though the green pitch will make it seam about and probably bounce higher.

  27. #27
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    Let me sum that up. If India produces rank turners, it is against the sprit of cricket and an unsporting wicket. If England produces spicy green pitches, it is an sporting wickets that tests the opposition batsmen.

    I'm not making excuses for our awful batting display, but the English double standards can be seen from the moon.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Not really

    Any random pie chucker becomes a beast on dust bowls. Recent examples would include Harmer from SA in India or even O'Keefe for that matter

    But not any seamer off the block has same impact no matter how green the pitch is. Overhead conditions can help swing but even there in my experience there is more skill involved
    Stuart binny says hi.

  29. #29
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    Both are better for cricket than UAE dead flat pitches that don't do anything.

  30. #30
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    Rank turners which get worse as the game progresses while mambas ease out. But personally i like a few matches like the india vs england one every now and then although it was more poor batting than the cause of a rank turner.

  31. #31
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    It is harder to maintain great level of control and accuracy for pacers on green mambas than it is for spinners on rank turners as spinners only have to walk a few steps and roll their arms.

    They can also bowl 15 overs on trot which pacers can't do. But green mambas can be very dangerous for batsman, especially tailenders. This is not the case with rank turners.

  32. #32
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    None

  33. #33
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    A rank turner is worse because most of the time the pitch gets worse the longer the game goes on. Whilst a green pitch more often than not can get easier to bat on as the game goes on.

  34. #34
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    Both are fine so long as the pitch is designed to survive 4/5 days.

    It shouldn't be throwing up sand, random deviation and forming a pothole were the bowlers land after 1 day.

  35. #35
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    Both are bad to me.

    I personally prefer a balanced pitch.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 27th February 2021 at 05:03.


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  36. #36
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    I find green mambas more exciting.

  37. #37
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    I prefer fast and bouncy wicket. India's best chance of doing well these days is neither turner nor swinging conditions. Bowlers are suitable for such conditions.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by observer1 View Post
    Both are fine so long as the pitch is designed to survive 4/5 days.

    It shouldn't be throwing up sand, random deviation and forming a pothole were the bowlers land after 1 day.
    Quite. At least grass on the wicket holds the surface together - you don’t get Moon craters on the morning of day two.

  39. #39
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    Rank turners especially if the pitch is behaving like a day 7 pitch on day 1.


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