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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    I think by now you should've realised how flawed is your criteria.

    It doesn't whether the comparison is between India and Australia or between ENgland and Australia.If we use your criteria then the "EXACT" same criteria should be applicable to rest of the teams.

    Once again if we still consider your criteria then Australia and SA would've never lost their no 1 ranking so easily.Pakistan would've never become NO 1 in Tests and Australia would've still been regarded as best team during 2009-2011 while India and SA were better in that period.
    So have the rest of the posters on this thread been comparing India to South Africa or Australia?

    Or Pakistan?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    So have the rest of the posters on this thread been comparing India to South Africa or Australia?

    Or Pakistan?
    Nah the point is that the criteria that you are applying should be applicable to rest of the teams as well.

    For ex-Suppose You are considering India 8-0 whitewashes in England and Australia during 2011-12.And due to that you are calling Pakistan better than India overseas currently.Then that should also mean that rest of the team is also better than India overseas.

    And if you extrapolate the bold part-You would also find that South Africa and Australia should easily be considered as better team overall due to simply much better performance and India pathetic overseas performance.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    Nah the point is that the criteria that you are applying should be applicable to rest of the teams as well.

    For ex-Suppose You are considering India 8-0 whitewashes in England and Australia during 2011-12.And due to that you are calling Pakistan better than India overseas currently.Then that should also mean that rest of the team is also better than India overseas.

    And if you extrapolate the bold part-You would also find that South Africa and Australia should easily be considered as better team overall due to simply much better performance and India pathetic overseas performance.
    Which team are you mentioning in your example?

    Also, I made the point of 8-1-1 and 9-0 to show that with three tours of each England and Australia respectively, both teams have had terrible performances.

    But if you want to compare both teams during this decade than look at their overall overseas record.

    India: 10-19-11

    Pakistan: 15-18-4

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post

    But if you want to compare both teams during this decade than look at their overall overseas record.

    India: 10-19-11

    Pakistan: 15-18-4
    Once again this record is completely irrelevant.Although it is still far better than you bringing India performance in NZ 2002.

    If we are considering performance in this decade to prove that currently Pakistan is better than India away from home.Then we should also consider performance of all the other teams in that period.This is the actual point that I am making.

    And you would find that there is only team which would be regarded as best Test team in the world and that team is South Africa due to simply far superior Overseas performance.And thus we wouldn't be having this debate anymore.

    In other words-

    If we are comparing the performance of India and Pakistan in this "decade" to prove that currently Pak>India overseas.Then we should also consider SA(along with rest of the other teams) overseas performance in the same exact period and you would find that "Currently" South africa is easily the best team in the world.Australia would be second best team currently.Thus Rankings(also has some flaws) which serves the purpose of indicating the recent performances of Teams would be completely meaningless.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    Once again this record is completely irrelevant.Although it is still far better than you bringing India performance in NZ 2002.

    If we are considering performance in this decade to prove that currently Pakistan is better than India away from home.Then we should also consider performance of all the other teams in that period.This is the actual point that I am making.

    And you would find that there is only team which would be regarded as best Test team in the world and that team is South Africa due to simply far superior Overseas performance.And thus we wouldn't be having this debate anymore.

    In other words-

    If we are comparing the performance of India and Pakistan in this "decade" to prove that currently Pak>India overseas.Then we should also consider SA(along with rest of the other teams) overseas performance in the same exact period and you would find that "Currently" South africa is easily the best team in the world.Australia would be second best team currently.Thus Rankings(also has some flaws) which serves the purpose of indicating the recent performances of Teams would be completely meaningless.
    So to counter a direct comparison record of India and Pakistan overseas, you are in fact going to bring in South Africa’s records.

    (Which is 10-9-11 in the same timeline by the way, below India, Pakistan, and Australia).

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    So to counter a direct comparison record of India and Pakistan overseas, you are in fact going to bring in South Africa’s records.

    (Which is 10-9-11 in the same timeline by the way, below India, Pakistan, and Australia).
    I don't the exact away record of SA record in that timeline.But it is simply WAY SUPERIOR TO rest of the teams.They won the away series in England and Australia 2012 whereas India lost 8-0 in same countries i 2011.Thus they would easily be called as best team in the world right now.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    I don't the exact away record of SA record in that timeline.But it is simply WAY SUPERIOR TO rest of the teams.They won the away series in England and Australia 2012 whereas India lost 8-0 in same countries i 2011.Thus they would easily be called as best team in the world right now.
    I quoted the overall overseas record of SA since January 2011 which is available to see on a recent post by @RedwoodOriginal titled, “Test teams away from home since January 2011- Pakistan and Australia level with the most wins”.

    Australia and Pakistan are tied with fifteen victories despite the former playing five more matches. It also clearly shows SA behind the three nations of India, Pakistan, and Australia.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    I quoted the overall overseas record of SA since January 2011 which is available to see on a recent post by @RedwoodOriginal titled, “Test teams away from home since January 2011- Pakistan and Australia level with the most wins”.

    Australia and Pakistan are tied with fifteen victories despite the former playing five more matches. It also clearly shows SA behind the three nations of India, Pakistan, and Australia.
    It doesn't matter what the record suggests.They have simply been far better than the rest.They have lost only 3 series away from home in that period - 1 in India,1 in England and 1 in Sri Lanka recently.

    If we rank teams on basis of performance in this decade,then SA would easily be ranked no 1 Without any doubt.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    I quoted the overall overseas record of SA since January 2011 which is available to see on a recent post by @RedwoodOriginal titled, “Test teams away from home since January 2011- Pakistan and Australia level with the most wins”.

    Australia and Pakistan are tied with fifteen victories despite the former playing five more matches. It also clearly shows SA behind the three nations of India, Pakistan, and Australia.
    SA away performance since 2011:-

    Drew a series in UAE 2014
    Won a series in England
    Won a series in Australia twice
    Won a series in Sri Lanka
    Won a series in New Zealand twice

    If you consider 2010, since that is also the part of this decade, add:-

    Drew a series in UAE 2010
    Drew a series in India 2010

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    It doesn't matter what the record suggests.They have simply been far better than the rest.They have lost only 3 series away from home in that period - 1 in India,1 in England and 1 in Sri Lanka recently.

    If we rank teams on basis of performance in this decade,then SA would easily be ranked no 1 Without any doubt.
    “It doesn’t matter what the record suggests” a.k.a. lets ignore statistics and data while resorting to perceived notions about team strength and performance.

    What’s next?

    Although India have beaten Pakistan 6-0 it doesn’t matter because Pakistan have beaten them in the most recent ICC Tournament?


  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    SA away performance since 2011:-

    Drew a series in UAE 2014
    Won a series in England
    Won a series in Australia twice
    Won a series in Sri Lanka
    Won a series in New Zealand twice

    If you consider 2010, since that is also the part of this decade, add:-

    Drew a series in UAE 2010
    Drew a series in India 2010
    The record is from January 2011.

    Not that it matters because they drew both series in 2010.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    “It doesn’t matter what the record suggests” a.k.a. lets ignore statistics and data while resorting to perceived notions about team strength and performance.

    What’s next?

    Although India have beaten Pakistan 6-0 it doesn’t matter because Pakistan have beaten them in the most recent ICC Tournament?

    Can you please bring the away stats of SA in this decade.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    Can you please bring the away stats of SA in this decade.
    I have done it twice.

    And quoted the source.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    I have done it twice.

    And quoted the source.
    No Problem.

    here is the stat.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    As you can see,it is simply way superior than the rest.And if you look beyond stats,you would find that they are country miles ahead of any other team if we consider overseas performance.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    The record is from January 2011.

    Not that it matters because they drew both series in 2010.
    Pakistan away wins are inflated by playing Ireland, Zimbabwe(twice) and WI (twice) away from home since 2011.

    South Africa away wins against minnows feature only 1 win against Zimbabwe.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Pakistan away wins are inflated by playing Ireland, Zimbabwe(twice) and WI (twice) away from home since 2011.

    South Africa away wins against minnows feature only 1 win against Zimbabwe.
    At home,India and Australia are still ahead of SA though.Overall SA is easily the best in that timeline.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    No Problem.

    here is the stat.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    As you can see,it is simply way superior than the rest.And if you look beyond stats,you would find that they are country miles ahead of any other team if we consider overseas performance.
    That is the W/L ratio.

    Not the overall victory-defeat-draw ratio.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Pakistan away wins are inflated by playing Ireland, Zimbabwe(twice) and WI (twice) away from home since 2011.

    South Africa away wins against minnows feature only 1 win against Zimbabwe.
    And yet even if you take that into account, they have one more overseas win than SA.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    That is the W/L ratio.

    Not the overall victory-defeat-draw ratio.
    Bro what are you trying to say?

    Are you suggesting that SA is not the best team away from home in that timeline?

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    And yet even if you take that into account, they have one more overseas win than SA.
    Not too sure of that.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    That explains SA dominance clearly when you look at wins, losses and draws all of them.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 13th August 2018 at 19:31.

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    Bro what are you trying to say?

    Are you suggesting that SA is not the best team away from home in that timeline?
    Not “me”.

    “The numbers, Mason”.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Pakistan have historically been a much better Test team than India so this is a moot point. I am clearly referring to Pakistan's abysmal record in Australia from 1990s onwards. I have lost count of the number of consecutive matches we have lost in Australia. In the last two decades or so, we have easily been the worst touring team in Australia.
    Why do you use "we" when referring to Pakistan?

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Not “me”.

    “The numbers, Mason”.
    Actually "The numbers" are clearly indicating that SA is easily best in that timeline.And if you look beyond "The numbers" South Africa are country miles ahead of any other team in terms of away performance.

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Not too sure of that.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    That explains SA dominance clearly when you look at wins, losses and draws all of them.
    @ManFan, and these numbers aren't even counting other teams matches vs Pakistan in UAE as away matches.

    So, add:-
    +1 to SA(In 2014 they won 1 match in UAE)

    Total:- 10 wins for SA away now.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Not too sure of that.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    That explains SA dominance clearly when you look at wins, losses and draws all of them.
    Let’s take a closer look.

    Pakistan has had

    1.) A win in NZ (2011)
    2). Two wins in SL (2015)
    3). Three wins in BD (2015)
    4.) Three wins in ENG (2016+2018)
    5). A win in IRE

    That’s nine off the top of my head yet you’re list has us at six.
    Last edited by ManFan; 13th August 2018 at 19:39.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    I think he might be talking about 1986 series where India won.
    Yes, Vengsarkar scored his 3rd century at Lord's and it was a great innings. But, that's thirty two years back, not twenty two.

  27. #187
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    South Africa seems to be an excellent away team, but never quite as good at home - particularly against England and Australia. A strange quirk and it has been going on for years.

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    LetÂ’s take a closer look.

    Pakistan has had

    1.) A win in NZ (2011)
    2). Two wins in SL (2015)
    3). Three wins in BD (2015)
    4.) Three wins in ENG (2016+2018)
    5). A win in IRE

    ThatÂ’s nine off the top of my head yet youÂ’re list has us at six.
    3 wins in BD(2 wins came in 2011 & 1 in 2015) + A win in Ireland shouldn't be counted as they were minnows at that point of time. Even today, BD are same as WI are.

    If SA would have played against these teams away, SA would have beaten them comprehensively as well, afterall they have beaten the likes of Australia twice and England (that too an England team of 2012) in their backyards.

    So, excluding minnows(BD, WI, Zim, Ireland), total is:-

    SA- 10
    Pak- 6

    SA's wins have come against England(3), Australia(3), New Zealand(2) ,SL(1), UAE(1).

    Pakistan's 6 wins away have come against NZ(1), Eng(3), SL(2).

    There is hardly a comparison between the two since 2011.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 13th August 2018 at 21:57.

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    3 wins in BD(2 wins came in 2011 & 1 in 2015) + A win in Ireland shouldn't be counted as they were minnows at that point of time. Even today, BD are same as WI are.

    If SA would have played against these teams away, SA would have beaten them comprehensively as well, afterall they have beaten the likes of Australia twice and England (that too an England team of 2012) in their backyards.

    So, excluding minnows(BD, WI, Zim, Ireland), total is:-

    SA- 10
    Pak- 6

    SA's wins have come against England(3), Australia(3), New Zealand(2) ,SL(1), UAE(1).

    Pakistan's 6 wins away have come against NZ(1), Eng(3), SL(2).

    There is hardly a comparison between the two since 2011.
    Yes.

    I realized that when I noticed the filter for Teams in your link.

    So South Africa have been better against non-minnows.


    "Preventive war is like committing suicide for fear of death" ~ Otto Von Bismarck

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Yes.

    I realized that when I noticed the filter for Teams in your link.

    So South Africa have been better against non-minnows.
    They have had one more tour to NZ and two more to AUS during this period so it makes sense that PAK has more victories in SL while SA in NZ and AUS.

    Regardless, Pakistan has more overseas victories from January 2011 onwards with both minnows and non-minnows taken into account.

  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    Probably you are not aware of Indian history & heritage... Let Indians be true Indians (eat the kind of food we were eating in the ancient days, live the way were living in the ancient days). After that we can compete in any field!


    I am well aware not friend but we are talking about 2018 not 3000 years ago. Who cares how Indians were 3000 years ago(lot of myths as well).. Fact is today we can’t compete in sports with most of the world.

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    It’s not genes. It is malnutrition. Majority suffer from stunted growth.

    Compare an average Indian kid in India with an American or European kid. The difference is too much to ignore.
    Yea but it seems now due to malnutrition over thousands of years the lack of physicality has come in indian genes.. Might take couple of generations to eat well and get back the proper structure..

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_gamer007 View Post
    I am well aware not friend but we are talking about 2018 not 3000 years ago. Who cares how Indians were 3000 years ago(lot of myths as well).. Fact is today we can’t compete in sports with most of the world.
    The treasure of knowledge and vedas is not a myth! And I agree we are not doing well with what we have!

  34. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_gamer007 View Post
    Yea but it seems now due to malnutrition over thousands of years the lack of physicality has come in indian genes.. Might take couple of generations to eat well and get back the proper structure..
    For Sports (other than Body Building and Boxing probably) you don't need too much muscles (Indian tribes & warriors - kshatriyas were consuming meat anyhow) Especially for a game like cricket you actually don't need muscles, you just need athleticism & endurance+concentration in heat & cold! Indian tribes had perfect skills for that! What is there in cricket? (apart from technique, I guess DK & co know what's those techniques, but they just can't apply isn't it?) Indians are educated now (then, ever) I think you & the whole world agrees that! Add to that the old Indian tribal body (or even the current Indian tribes who are not disturbed with noodles, steroid milk, etc + if you are able to educate them) you will get the desired results! All you need is throwing capability at good speed (educating that to convert into bowling) After that its all skills (we have a lot of skilled players in cricket in India, its just about the combination, the full playing XI). I still remember how Australians were praising Indian batting (Laxman, Dravid, Sachin, Sehwag) in that golden period, they told that they bat like doing meditation!

    So its all there, we need to just get everything in the right place! Throw out DK (I guess he is an upper caste guy, please note that I am not bringing any casteism here if you understood my actual intent! Today caste means getting more benefits in the society & becoming more powerful politically) there could be a proper athletic ancient Tamil tribe there who could do wonders (the genes could be similar to the great WI players of 70s and better than artificial steroid-based modern food Australians!)

    I don't think we need to go that deep to get the perfect team (I think it is out of scope here) If we get few things right like selection, coaching, captaincy, application, etc, then we will do reasonably well...

  35. #195
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    @ManFan

    That SA point is just one of the many instances which exposes the flaw in your criteria.But first you need to realize that Pakistan is nowhere near South Africa in terms of away performance in this decade.You are mentioning number of away win for Pakistan but completely ignoring

    1 Number of overseas losses for Pakistan.Special Mention - Zimbabwe loss.
    2 No of away wins against the Weaker sides for Pakistan as compared to South Africa.
    3 Number of away series win for South Africa(particularly against top ranked sides) as compared to Pakistan.
    4 Number of away series losses for Pakistan as compared to South Africa

    Now let me use Similar logic of yours in ODI format and call no 2 ranked India Best team in this format right now because India have won the away series in England 2014 whereas England have won only 3 matches in India since 01 Jan 2011.If I prove that ATM India > England then it would automatically mean that Australia and South Africa are also much better ODI team than England.So Currently no 1 ranked England is not even amongst the top 3 best ODI sides in the world.Do you realize how absurd it sounds?

    After thrashing India recently,England is easily the best ODI side in the world right now and deserve no 1 ranking.

    And if you want to justify the no 1 rank of England,it would be difficult to find a better stat presentation than what you can see in post #84.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage View Post
    @ManFan

    That SA point is just one of the many instances which exposes the flaw in your criteria.But first you need to realize that Pakistan is nowhere near South Africa in terms of away performance in this decade.You are mentioning number of away win for Pakistan but completely ignoring

    1 Number of overseas losses for Pakistan.Special Mention - Zimbabwe loss.
    2 No of away wins against the Weaker sides for Pakistan as compared to South Africa.
    3 Number of away series win for South Africa(particularly against top ranked sides) as compared to Pakistan.
    4 Number of away series losses for Pakistan as compared to South Africa

    Now let me use Similar logic of yours in ODI format and call no 2 ranked India Best team in this format right now because India have won the away series in England 2014 whereas England have won only 3 matches in India since 01 Jan 2011.If I prove that ATM India > England then it would automatically mean that Australia and South Africa are also much better ODI team than England.So Currently no 1 ranked England is not even amongst the top 3 best ODI sides in the world.Do you realize how absurd it sounds?

    After thrashing India recently,England is easily the best ODI side in the world right now and deserve no 1 ranking.

    And if you want to justify the no 1 rank of England,it would be difficult to find a better stat presentation than what you can see in post #84.
    Indian's carrying out such detailed analysis just to defend such a pathetic performance. Next, you will study the cloud patterns between the two series'.


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  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Indian's carrying out such detailed analysis just to defend such a pathetic performance. Next, you will study the cloud patterns between the two series'.
    do you even know what's going on here?

    I never talked about India's recent loss in this thread and I certainly didn't defend their performance anywhere in PP.

    Please try to make some sense before you post

  38. #198
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    Let's see what India comes up with for the next test


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