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  1. #1
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    Are we being harsh on the current squad?

    Are we being harsh on the current squad given they had very little preparation in South Africa, were obviously undercooked before the Test series, many were touring South Africa for the first time.

    In addition Pakistan's record in South Africa is awful despite having some excellent batsmen at their disposal.

    Surely 3-0 was expected.

    Are we being too harsh on the current group of players representing Pakistan in Test cricket in South Africa?



  2. #2
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    For me the major disappointment is how these guys weren't able to seize the key moments like in the 1st test when we were 100-1 and in the 3rd test when we had reduced them to like 90-5.

  3. #3
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    I think a LOT of the blame should go to Azhar and Asad Shafiq and they deserve all the criticims, especially Azhar. These two are supposed to be our senior batsmen, filling the shoes of Misbah and YK yet they give pathetic performances. At least Asad stat padded in a couple of innings, but Azhar was simply unforgivable, averaged single figures. Huge disappointment. You can't beat SA in SA if your best 1/2 batsmen aren't leading from the front.

  4. #4
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    Yes and No

    No, because Azhar and asad Shafiq need to be taking more responsibility. They are now the senior batsmen, but they still play as if they are new in the team. A 60-80 runs scored by them doesnt deserve a congratulations, because they are senior batsmen and should be scoring more.

    iI dont critisize Sarfraz, but now he is to be blamed aswell. He is the captain, and should be scoring runs. No one should use that WK excuse. THe reason why Sarfraz is in the team was because he could also bat. He replaced Adnan Akmal due to his batting, and even back in 2015 the outcry used to be that Sarfraz should be played in the top order because he could bat.

    It is unfair to bash Asad and Azhar while overlooking Sarfraz. All three hold blame.

    Rather than that, we are Harsh on the others. South Africa is a great side, they have a great bowling line up, thus a 3-0 was expected.
    Last edited by Zeeraq; Yesterday at 19:54.


    "Life is Pain"
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by babajee View Post
    For me the major disappointment is how these guys weren't able to seize the key moments like in the 1st test when we were 100-1 and in the 3rd test when we had reduced them to like 90-5.
    Very good point, 1st Test was our best chance, if that partnership between Imam and Masood were together for even just 5-10 more overs then SA really would have started to panic, and heads would have started to drop. But Imam got out, to a fairly average delivery it must be said, and the floodgates opened.

  6. #6
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    Not really. Knowing full well that its the lesser known bowlers who do well against Pakistan, our team keeps repeating the same mistake of not getting the hang of the newbies despite visual analysis and simulations now a days. Getting SA 4 down before they reach 60 and then conceding 270+ score is also unforgivable. So no, this team deserve all the backlash it has been recently receiving.

  7. #7
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    I think the people who are touring for the first time have done well.

    Imam has played 2 knocks of 30 plus and one 50 ( though still poor)

    Shan masood is our top scorer.

    Babar is our second highest scorer.

    Shaheen shah was our highest wicket taker in the first two matches

    shadab took wickets and scored.

    Faheem was our highest wicket taker in the only match he has played.

    The major responsibility was on azhar , asad and sarfraz , touring the place for the second time.

    Azhar completely failed , asad failed in 4 innings and sarfraz averaged 18.

    Its not about preparation only , pakistan batting has been failing for a long long time now and same culprits do it time and again. The captaincy was questionable and the team selection was shady in the first two matches.


    It is either a heartache or a headache ..Argh relationships.

  8. #8
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    Azhar, Asad and Sarfaraz were terrible or impactless, which is why things didn't well. So, when seniors don't perform, you gotta be harsh.

    Same for Yasir, so much hype, remains a non-entity in the series.

  9. #9
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    Why were there no long-term preparations or thinking for this tour despite the fact that it was a return to South Africa after five years?

    This point can be exaggerated by the fact that the former South African coach of the best South African team since itís return to cricket is now the current coach of the Pakistan cricket team!

  10. #10
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    Yes we were expected to lose 3-0.

    The fact our batsmen played a few nice t20 knocks and showed no heart and application or willingness to improve (babar/shan aside) means they should rightly be criticised. Same gutless displays lost us games at home to SL and NZ aswell.

  11. #11
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    They lost to NZ and SL at home.

    How do you do that?

    They deserve way more criticism.

    If Pak want to remain at the bottom and not become a top team again, then sure this is nothing serious and we should ease up.

  12. #12
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    fans wouldn't be as harsh if the team put up a fight every now and then

  13. #13
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    Example - pakistan beat england 3-0 in UAE 5/6 years ago. All 3 tests were competative and england had chances to win each game.

    Pakistan lose 3-0 here did our players fight out or make it competative? Not even slightly. At best we won 1 session in each test. Pathetic and gutless stuff.

    Atleast show some fight in defeat.

  14. #14
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    Not good enough to make 'that' step Im afraid...Azhar, Asad and Sarfraz.

    Best way forward for Pakistan is to start by dropping one of them or two...and give a chance to someone else, Fawad, Saad, Salahuddin, Rizwan etc

    Just dont sacrifice Fakhar or Haris...even Imam.

  15. #15
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    We should have won the Centurion test. But we didn't capitalize key moments.

    Also I feel if Shadab, Faheem had played we would have won the Centurion game. Only needed 80-100 runs more in that game. Our tail contributed zilch.


    "You aren't a failure if you fail, you are a failure if you don't get up to try again" - Imran Khan.

  16. #16
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    No.

    We are a mediocre team and we were always going to struggle. The issue is that our so-called seniors once again flopped badly as they have done in recent times. We have a coach who knows SA conditions inside out. No excuses possible.

    Asad and Sarfraz both need to be removed from the team as soon as possible. Lets have Saad Ali and Mohammed Rizwan instead.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Pakistan View Post
    We should have won the Centurion test. But we didn't capitalize key moments.

    Also I feel if Shadab, Faheem had played we would have won the Centurion game. Only needed 80-100 runs more in that game. Our tail contributed zilch.
    Also expected more from guys like Amir, Abbas and Hassan. I thought we might get SA under 200 a couple of times, but SA always came back and these bowlers got soft.

    I know our batting was awful but we are known for our bowling and they couldn't do anything spectacular.


    "You aren't a failure if you fail, you are a failure if you don't get up to try again" - Imran Khan.

  18. #18
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    You get disappointed when the expectation doesn't meet the results.

    Number of 100s for each countries in the last 3 years. Lack of conversion is a big issue for Pakistan. Big 100s, Daddy 100s are clearly missing. They are barely better than Windies and Bangladesh.


  19. #19
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    We werent harsh i think...these guys deserve criticism for being average most of the series

  20. #20
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    Lack of willingness to bat hard sessions was bad to see. Playing few T-20 knocks when Field was up was fine, but you have to show willingness to take some blows on body and be there in some tough overs.

    Only one batsman showed willingness to bat tough sessions without simply trying his luck with T-20 game. Shan, he was the one. Rest of them were simply too afraid to bat normally and treat ball on merit. You don't have to block eveyrthing, but you don't need to be afraid to not trust your defense as well.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  21. #21
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    @Saj

    You are right in a way we all knew when the selections were announced this team will lose to Proteas, but not playing 50 complete overs, no 100s from any Pakistani cricketer, selfish cricket from seniors, playing for places, irresponsible shots, unprepared for bounce, losing the match in 3rd and 4th day, seniors playing 70 odd tests fearing being hit, collapses,.....

    This is one of the worst tour I've seen for Pakistan team since South africa returned to test cricket in 91/92.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by babajee View Post
    For me the major disappointment is how these guys weren't able to seize the key moments like in the 1st test when we were 100-1 and in the 3rd test when we had reduced them to like 90-5.
    But isn't that part of a good/decent developing side? Azam, Shan, Imam, Afridi, Abbas all had less than 10 Test each IIRC and played relatively well. Played with rookies yet managed to find themselves in decent if not winning positions.

    To put things in perspective SA sent an experienced side to Lanka (decline/transition or not) and didn't even win a session. Pakistan won a few sessions and scored runs against a quality bowling unit. This SA pace attack is the best we've had as a unit since readmission, so Pakistan competed really well imo.


    The only concern I have is whether or not these guys can develop, talent is there it's not even an issue. But can the PCB produce a conducive environment for players to grow? That's my only concern (I don't trust them tbh), been a while since I've seen Pakistan play the same side over a long period without chopping and changing. Moyo, YK, Misbah were all kicked out of the side for non cricket reasons at some stage in their respective careers. That's just not conducive for development.
    Persist and persevere with the current crop of youngsters and see where that leads you guys. Good luck.

    PS: Obviously Pakistan has to find a way of touring SENA countries frequently. If not, go back to England as a neutral venue I hope the PCB didn't completely burn its bridges with the ECB. (A side can't develop on it's own you need a network of friends and allies, even South Africa got help from India then played the likes of Australia and England regularly in the 90's. So public relations are as important in player development. If you're not getting invited in these countries regularly, this includes A tours, then there's little scope for growth. Point being it takes more than just fixing your domestic structures to compete at the highest level. The PCB has to work on its PR) This post is longer than I wanted it to be, sorry.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnaveen1980 View Post
    You get disappointed when the expectation doesn't meet the results.

    Number of 100s for each countries in the last 3 years. Lack of conversion is a big issue for Pakistan. Big 100s, Daddy 100s are clearly missing. They are barely better than Windies and Bangladesh.

    Worse, actually.



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  24. #24
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    I would not back the current team beat an equally poor SL at home in Oct or to be even remotely competative in Australia.

    I reckon we would struggle against WI and bangladesh right now.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    But isn't that part of a good/decent developing side? Azam, Shan, Imam, Afridi, Abbas all had less than 10 Test each IIRC and played relatively well. Played with rookies yet managed to find themselves in decent if not winning positions.
    Fair enough, but those are the moments you want the seniors in a developing side to step up (Azhar, Asad, Sarfraz) and they failed miserably.

  26. #26
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    I expected 3-0. I'm not that upset about it really.

    What I am upset is losing against Sri Lanka in UAE. And even worse New Zealand, a non-subcontintent team in UAE.

    It sucks that we're in a position where we're not even confident in winning in UAE, or Asia for that matter, the way we are playing we wouldn't start favourites in Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.

    I do think people single out Asad and Azhar a bit too much, as the other guys in the side bar Imam aren't youngsters, they already have international experience and need to be scoring hundreds regularly. Shan and Haris are around 30 with previous international experience. Babar's mid 20 but he has a lot of international experience now starting young. Everyone is expected to perform, IMO they all feel like seniors. The only guy who's an actual youngster is Imam Ul Haq.

  27. #27
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    India did our bidding in the 90's when the ECB and CA thought we were a hot potato politically. Then the Windies invited us, the rest is history.

    Who does the PCB consider as it's closest ally within the ICC member nations? Coz at the moment they seem like a lone woolf. South Africa has sandwiched itself between CA, ECB and BCCI. Even though there's been tension between the BCCI and CSA in recent years there's political will between the two countries that transcends egos of cricket administration. PCB has to start making some bonds coz they seem isolated atm.

  28. #28
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    kind of harsh, we know from start these batsmen will struggle as our batsmen always struggle in SA.
    if we look statistically Asad is better than Inzimam, Yousuf and Younus in SA. I am not saying these players should be praised or not asked to do more. We need to think why it happen to all of our batsmen, it seems its not individual problem.

    M R Avg
    Asad 6 385 36.5
    Younus 8 489 32.6
    Inzimam 8 445 31.78
    Yousuf 5 261 26.1

  29. #29
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    I think a whitewash was a realistic result. But the frustrating things is the seniors not performing after long investment and the frequent collapses from decent positions.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by babajee View Post
    Fair enough, but those are the moments you want the seniors in a developing side to step up (Azhar, Asad, Sarfraz) and they failed miserably.
    I'd get rid of Azhar, tap Asad on the shoulder to let him know he's on borrowed time. I'd keep Safraz (not as captain though) on his day he's a match winner. There's so much to work with in this current side it's frustrating. Pakistan doesn't even play as many internationals (including the IPL) as India, England, Australia (maybe SA too) there's no reason for them not to arrive a month before a tour. They tour SENA once every four years if I'm not mistaken, hence it's imperative to arrive early. But all of this goes back to the administrative side of things, that's what is hurting Pakistan the most rather the players.

  31. #31
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    Pakistans next 3 test series - SL, Aus and bangla. I wouldnt back them to win any of the 3 series.

  32. #32
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    IIRC Asad averaged 33 in his last tour to SA as well. The likes of Dravid would average 20, there's definitely talent within this side. But they have to be developed, and that isn't solely the responsibility of the batting coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by munda_khi View Post
    kind of harsh, we know from start these batsmen will struggle as our batsmen always struggle in SA.
    if we look statistically Asad is better than Inzimam, Yousuf and Younus in SA. I am not saying these players should be praised or not asked to do more. We need to think why it happen to all of our batsmen, it seems its not individual problem.

    M R Avg
    Asad 6 385 36.5
    Younus 8 489 32.6
    Inzimam 8 445 31.78
    Yousuf 5 261 26.1

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by munda_khi View Post
    kind of harsh, we know from start these batsmen will struggle as our batsmen always struggle in SA.
    if we look statistically Asad is better than Inzimam, Yousuf and Younus in SA. I am not saying these players should be praised or not asked to do more. We need to think why it happen to all of our batsmen, it seems its not individual problem.

    M R Avg
    Asad 6 385 36.5
    Younus 8 489 32.6
    Inzimam 8 445 31.78
    Yousuf 5 261 26.1
    Inzi and YK played match winning knocks in SA to win us a test and didnt get soft runs like Asad.

  34. #34
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    Before a ball had been bowled I had called the series a 3-0 whitewash because this young Pakistan team simply didn't have the skill to cope with the South African pacers. I don't take any relish from the fact that prediction has been realised. I am not particularly perturbed by this series result as better Pakistan sides have come to South Africa and left with the tail between their legs.

    However the key is context - those sides at least took care of home base. This Pakistan side has lost two Test series at home to Sri Lanka and New Zealand in an era where home domination is so pronounced. Batting collapses are nothing new, but in the MisYou era those were reduced though not ironed out completely. Now they are commonplace even in UAE. We have lost 8 out of 13 Tests since the appointment of Sarfraz as skipper, but what's so discouraging is how many times we've failed to cross 300 in this period.

    Apart from the summer of 2010, I haven't seen a Pakistan batting unit this devoid of solidity and reliability. Even during the dark periods of the 2000s there was at least one gun senior batsman in the team you could bank on to score centuries consistently. Now we're banking on two senior batsmen in Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq that've always been support acts at best and lack consistency bar brief purple patches under MisYou. Babar Azam hasn't yet shown he can be a 45+ Test averaging batsman despite impressive performances here - though batting at 6 does prevent him from building long innings especially with our hopeless tail. Haris Sohail has dodgy knees. So where is the hope for the future ?

    We used to rely on our bowlers to bail us out but their poor fitness, lack of speed compared to the SAF pacers, and wasting of the new ball has been exposed on this tour. In fairness, the bowlers must be so demoralised by the constant collapses and having so few runs to defend.

  35. #35
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    The senior players should take most of the flak.

    I think it's a tad unfair to hammer the likes of Imam in South Africa?



  36. #36
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    Yes and No. This is international cricket and you have to show your mettle here and to be fair, a few players did show their talent in patches i.e. Imam, Shan Masood, Asad Shafiq, Babar Azam, Sarfaraz, Shadab, Amir, Faheem, Shaheen.

    Players need to look at Shan Masood and learn from him, I don't mind technical mistakes, shot selection errors in the first 3-4 games but not when you have played for a few years. If Shan Masood can put in the hard yards to work on his weaknesses and return as an improved players, why can't the other batsmen in the squad find a way regardless of the dearth of high quality bowling machines back home in Pakistan. Where there is a will, there is a way

  37. #37
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    My biggest frustration is with Sarfaraz's captaincy, he keeps repeating the same captaincy mistakes on the field in every game and has shown zero improvement, he doesn't bring close in fielders for new batsmen, he doesn't bring his strike bowlers on immediately when there is a new batsman in, he concedes easy singles to new batsmen, he is uncreative in his bowling changes, does not try anything out of the box, he keeps on shouting at the fielders under the pump, his body language goes for a toss when the opposition is on top, he did not once bother to stand up to Abbas knowing full well the proteas were countering him by standing outside the crease, he shows zero responsibility and consistency with the bat.

    What Pakistan needs is a Williamson type captain, atleast the bowlers will be well served in the field with such a captain.

  38. #38
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    Another thing not being mentioned is just how bad our tail was, we had our main batsmen struggling against bouncers, the tail had no chance and it showed in our collapses at the end. You can't have your last 5 wickets falling for 10 runs, it adds too much pressure on the top order. Tailenders need to learn and show the right technique against bouncers so that they can support a main batsman at the wicket.

    The two test matches we have won in SA is because our tail supported a main batsman at the other end i.e. Akhtar and Fazle Akbar supported Azhar Mahmood in 1997-98 and Mohd Asif supported Inzamam who brilliantly shielded him in 2007. Also on the 2007 tour, in the first test, the likes of Rana Naveed, Shahid Nazir and Danish Kaneria added a 100 runs for the last 2 wickets which is why Pakistan set a target of 190.

    You cannot have a weak tail in SA

  39. #39
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    No! The criticism is absolutely fair. We talk up our side up like crazy when we win in the UAE. Similarly, they deserve all the criticism for what was an awful tour. Let's not forget that prior to this series New Zealand also defeated us too. The bowling is class, my beef has always been with our batsmen.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    The senior players should take most of the flak.

    I think it's a tad unfair to hammer the likes of Imam in South Africa?
    Imam didn't perform against NZ in the UAE either. So he deserves the stick he's getting.


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  41. #41
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    Yeah,surely people are being way too harsh.
    Pakistani batters did better than any subcontinent side did in their last tour.
    But yeah,the bowlers are way too overrated,ATM batsman did better than bowlers.
    AZhar deserves criticism ,he needs to go.Sarfaraz also did quite a good job,look at performances of other asian wktkeepers in SA.Sarfaraz was also good with the gloves but yeah he needs to shed the captaincy load so that he can focus on his own performances.AS a capatain sarfaraz was'nt up to the mark.

  42. #42
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    Yesterday I was looking at a post which mentioned the averages of batsmen in domestic cricket and there were at least 5 batsmen with better averages than Azhar and Asad. We have stuck with mediocrity for far too long. Needs to select team on merit or otherwise that day is not far when we will get whitewashed in UAE regularly as well.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    The senior players should take most of the flak.

    I think it's a tad unfair to hammer the likes of Imam in South Africa?
    Did they not get a dressing down early in series and no change occurred? Similarly come end of the series the senior players were given solid backing by the coach

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    India did our bidding in the 90's when the ECB and CA thought we were a hot potato politically. Then the Windies invited us, the rest is history.

    Who does the PCB consider as it's closest ally within the ICC member nations? Coz at the moment they seem like a lone woolf. South Africa has sandwiched itself between CA, ECB and BCCI. Even though there's been tension between the BCCI and CSA in recent years there's political will between the two countries that transcends egos of cricket administration. PCB has to start making some bonds coz they seem isolated atm.
    Tough call, when they've even picked a fight with Bangladesh.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed View Post
    Inzi and YK played match winning knocks in SA to win us a test and didnt get soft runs like Asad.
    One each.


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