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View Poll Results: Is Alastair Cook an all-time great?

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  • Yes, he is

    3 37.50%
  • No, he falls short

    5 62.50%
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  1. #1
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    Is Alastair Cook an all-time great?

    Let's get this clear for once and all. Many posters consider him an ATG. Do you think he is an ATG given his weaknesses against quality pace bowling?

    He failed in 10 straight consecutive Ashes and then continued failing vs India and SL at home, latter winning a test series there. He never did well vs South Africa or Australia at home. He never faced Ajmal or Yasir in UAE and struggled against Jadeja in India.

    Is he an ATG opener and better batsmen than other openers like Gooch, Boycott, Greendige, Smith, Kirsten and Hayden?

    Who is better test player- KP or Cook?

  2. #2
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    He isn't an English great. Leave alone ATG.

  3. #3
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    He's an English great.

    No matter how little you rate Cook, he will go down as one of the better English openers.

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    An English great. Not an all time great of the sport - too many holes in his game. But still a top player and more than good enough to plunder runs in the current era.

    KP was the better batsman.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipl_fan View Post
    He isn't an English great. Leave alone ATG.
    This is a bit harsh. You also have to consider his opening batsman position and his leadership. England’s big win in the 2011 Test series away in Australia was in large part down to Cook’s 700+ runs across the five Tests (including 2 big tons and 1 double ton), and England’s win in India - the only side to do this in Test cricket in a very long time - had a great deal to do with Cook’s runs and captaincy. These achievements alone arguably certify his English Great status.

  6. #6
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    Not even close. Will never ever be.

    He has never chased big totals like Smith can do and neither does he have as memorable performances as Smith has.

    He isn't inspirational or world beater like Smith was.

    Was overshadowed by KP till 2012 who was the best batsmen in the team and then he had a slump of two year where he was under scanner of getting dropped.Root established himself in 2015 and since then Cook has managed some success although against decent bowlers mostly.

    He has got great mental concentration though.Can bat long and long.

    But he has got too many failures to even put him in consideration.

    If Azhar Ali continues performing well for few more years, he will reach Cook's level.

    An England great.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    If Azhar Ali continues performing well for few more years, he will reach Cook's level.
    No, he won't, don't even compare the tailender to Cook

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by InziRules View Post
    No, he won't, don't even compare the tailender to Cook
    Tailender who scored a 200 vs Starc and Hazlewood in Australia?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Tailender who scored a 200 vs Starc and Hazlewood in Australia?
    One can score somewhat quickly, the other defends and defends.

  10. #10
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    I don't even consider him a test great let alone conferring the ATG status upon him. He's vastly overrated on PP by some wannabe posters who drool over any half decent performance that an Englishman puts up while at the same time discredit their own bunch. Maybe due to the British colonial influence on their desi slave mentality.

    Other than that, Cook is the most terrible opener I've seen among all cricket playing nations, this is the same guy who couldn't manage to put bat on ball for more than two years and made to look like an amateur by the likes of Dilshan - the bowler - of all people. I'll never rate a batsman who struggles against part timers, he's not even in contention of being great.

    Most of his accomplishments have come at home except that odd Ashes away series and India where he helped his side win. Besides, the guy bats at snail's pace, struggles throughout his innings, can't put the bad ball away unlike Root, Smith etc, always vulnerable against the ball swinging in making him LBW candidate and is horrendous against spin, foibles that aren't associated with greats or ATGs.

    Even though he has good temperament but its useless if you don't have the ability to survive tough situations. All in all, he's just mediocre who should have retired in 2014 as apparent from his debacles in both formats as an opener. Mentioning him in the same breadth of proven ATGs is an insult to all of them. Selectors have been generous enough to let him continue past his sell-by date.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by InziRules View Post
    One can score somewhat quickly, the other defends and defends.
    Azhar would need one series away from home where he could dominate and 3-4 year of consistent runs. That would put him at same level to Cook.Both avg same in tests.

    He doesn't play for England unlike Cook hence cant reach 150 tests in 12 year long period.

  12. #12
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    I think he is one of the modern day great openers. There is no single formula for greatness, every careers tells a different story.

    He has scored mountains of runs in series wins in Australia and India, and was Man of the Series on both occasions. In addition, he has been a resilient captain and has won two Ashes series, was the captain when they won in India and has also led them to a series win in South Africa.

    It really doesn't get better than that for an English cricketer in the modern era. Winning and performing in those countries is all that counts, and you don't have to do it every single time in every innings and every series. In addition, opening in Test cricket when you play most of your matches in England is probably the toughest job in the game.

    To survive and perform for that long when others around him have come and gone exhibits hims capacity to absorb pressure. England have tried a staggering number of different opening pairs in the last 10 years, and the only constant has been Cook and for good reason.

    To claim that he is not even an English cricket is ridiculous, and I would argue that he just about gets into the ATG category because of his tremendous mental strength, longevity, impactful series winning efforts and serviceable if not unspectacular captaincy.

    He is not a box office player and he will not be remembered by the majority of the viewers because he doesn't capture their imagination with the bat. However, those who follow the game more intricately and are willing to watch and appreciate the game beyond statistics and have a taste for the finer things in life, would always remember him for his massive contribution to the game and to English cricket.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by darksher View Post
    I don't even consider him a test great let alone conferring the ATG status upon him. He's vastly overrated on PP by some wannabe posters who drool over any half decent performance that an Englishman puts up while at the same time discredit their own bunch. Maybe due to the British colonial influence on their desi slave mentality.

    Other than that, Cook is the most terrible opener I've seen among all cricket playing nations, this is the same guy who couldn't manage to put bat on ball for more than two years and made to look like an amateur by the likes of Dilshan - the bowler - of all people. I'll never rate a batsman who struggles against part timers, he's not even in contention of being great.

    Most of his accomplishments have come at home except that odd Ashes away series and India where he helped his side win. Besides, the guy bats at snail's pace, struggles throughout his innings, can't put the bad ball away unlike Root, Smith etc, always vulnerable against the ball swinging in making him LBW candidate and is horrendous against spin, foibles that aren't associated with greats or ATGs.

    Even though he has good temperament but its useless if you don't have the ability to survive tough situations. All in all, he's just mediocre who should have retired in 2014 as apparent from his debacles in both formats as an opener. Mentioning him in the same breadth of proven ATGs is an insult to all of them. Selectors have been generous enough to let him continue past his sell-by date.
    Great post. Agreed completely. Calling Cook an ATG is insult to other great English players. He has been there because of lack of any good opener.

    Winning is a team performance not one player. Eng won't have won in India not for KP or Swann//MP.

  14. #14
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    Misbah an ATG too. He never lost any series at adopted home place. His team has to stay away from home and family and still never lost any series in UAE and then kept touring outside Asia.

    He won a test series in NZ and drew in England as a player of the series. He took the team away from match fixing saga and took the responsibility in other formats of the game too. He doesnt have the luxury of Anderson, Broad and Swann.

    It just doesn't get any better for a Pakistani player.

    An alltime great of the game.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Misbah an ATG too. He never lost any series at adopted home place. His team has to stay away from home and family and still never lost any series in UAE and then kept touring outside Asia.

    He won a test series in NZ and drew in England as a player of the series. He took the team away from match fixing saga and took the responsibility in other formats of the game too. He doesnt have the luxury of Anderson, Broad and Swann.

    It just doesn't get any better for a Pakistani player.

    An alltime great of the game.
    Misbah has not performed outside the UAE barring a few innings and he has not lead Pakistan to a Test series win in any major country. UAE is not home but the conditions are very similar, and it gives our team big advantage over non-Asian sides.

    In addition, Misbah has been poor in ODIs but was made to look good because the other players were worse. He would not get into any top ODI team. The only thing that Misbah has over Cook is that he is a better T20 batsman.

    Overall, based on performances and achievements, Misbah is nowhere near Cook.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Misbah has not performed outside the UAE barring a few innings and he has not lead Pakistan to a Test series win in any major country. UAE is not home but the conditions are very similar, and it gives our team big advantage over non-Asian sides.

    In addition, Misbah has been poor in ODIs but was made to look good because the other players were worse. He would not get into any top ODI team. The only thing that Misbah has over Cook is that he is a better T20 batsman.

    Overall, based on performances and achievements, Misbah is nowhere near Cook.
    Misbah is an ATG.He drew a series in England and NZ and was the player of the series in England which is a massive achievement for any Asian team.

    And he is a very good odi and t20 bat and levels superior to Cook in LoIs that goes without saying.

    Misbah also has got the fastest hundred something Cook cant manage in his lifetime unfortunately and is a much better leader than Cook.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Misbah is an ATG.He drew a series in England and NZ and was the player of the series in England which is a massive achievement for any Asian team.

    And he is a very good odi and t20 bat and levels superior to Cook in LoIs that goes without saying.

    Misbah also has got the fastest hundred something Cook cant manage in his lifetime unfortunately and is a much better leader than Cook.
    Winning a series in NZ and drawing a series in England are insignificant achievements compared to winning series in Australia, India and South Africa, and he was also Man of the Series in the Australian and Indian series.

    Misbah is a decent T20 batsman but he is not a good ODI batsman. He is at the same level as Cook but Cook got dropped because England evolved as an ODI team. Cook scored back to back hundreds to help England whitewash Pakistan in an ODI series in the UAE, but Misbah's individual contribution has not been great in the big ODI series that we won under his captaincy.

    However, neither Misbah nor Cook would get into any quality ODI side, but at least Cook was good enough to score some hundreds.

    Fastest hundred is an isolated individual achievement that doesn't define greatness. McCullum holds the record now and it doesn't make him an ATG. Chanderpaul has scored a faster Test hundred than Lara but that doesn't make him better.

    As far as captaincy is concerned, both are very similar. Poor in LOIs but decent in Tests, although inflexible and unimaginative. Misbah had the good fortune of not touring tough overseas teams from 2013-2016 which didn't expose his captaincy much, and he ruined his legacy in the end by losing 6 consecutive Tests.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Winning a series in NZ and drawing a series in England are insignificant achievements compared to winning series in Australia, India and South Africa, and he was also Man of the Series in the Australian and Indian series.

    Misbah is a decent T20 batsman but he is not a good ODI batsman. He is at the same level as Cook but Cook got dropped because England evolved as an ODI team. Cook scored back to back hundreds to help England whitewash Pakistan in an ODI series in the UAE, but Misbah's individual contribution has not been great in the big ODI series that we won under his captaincy.

    However, neither Misbah nor Cook would get into any quality ODI side, but at least Cook was good enough to score some hundreds.

    Fastest hundred is an isolated individual achievement that doesn't define greatness. McCullum holds the record now and it doesn't make him an ATG. Chanderpaul has scored a faster Test hundred than Lara but that doesn't make him better.

    As far as captaincy is concerned, both are very similar. Poor in LOIs but decent in Tests, although inflexible and unimaginative. Misbah had the good fortune of not touring tough overseas teams from 2013-2016 which didn't expose his captaincy much, and he ruined his legacy in the end by losing 6 consecutive Tests.
    Cook lost 0-5 Ashes in Australia, lost to even Lanka at home, and no Asian team has ever won in Aus or SA.Cook won because of the team. You dont win it alone. Your favourite Tendu never won there. So that makes Cook> Tendu.

    Misbah is a far better test captain than Cook and far better odi and t20 batsmen than Cook.

    The guy could score fastest 100 in tests and is at same level to Cook in LoIs lol. He would have been exploited a lot better if played for England in odis.

    Cook was on verge of getting dropped in tests in 2014.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I think he is one of the modern day great openers. There is no single formula for greatness, every careers tells a different story.

    He has scored mountains of runs in series wins in Australia and India, and was Man of the Series on both occasions. In addition, he has been a resilient captain and has won two Ashes series, was the captain when they won in India and has also led them to a series win in South Africa.

    It really doesn't get better than that for an English cricketer in the modern era. Winning and performing in those countries is all that counts, and you don't have to do it every single time in every innings and every series. In addition, opening in Test cricket when you play most of your matches in England is probably the toughest job in the game.

    To survive and perform for that long when others around him have come and gone exhibits hims capacity to absorb pressure. England have tried a staggering number of different opening pairs in the last 10 years, and the only constant has been Cook and for good reason.

    To claim that he is not even an English cricket is ridiculous, and I would argue that he just about gets into the ATG category because of his tremendous mental strength, longevity, impactful series winning efforts and serviceable if not unspectacular captaincy.

    He is not a box office player and he will not be remembered by the majority of the viewers because he doesn't capture their imagination with the bat. However, those who follow the game more intricately and are willing to watch and appreciate the game beyond statistics and have a taste for the finer things in life, would always remember him for his massive contribution to the game and to English cricket.
    This post sums up Cook brilliantly.

    The conclusion is ATG or not: Cook is a heck of a player who is a run machine. Impact player when his team wins in difficult series.

  20. #20
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    Although Misbah is nowhere close to Cook as a test player, I dont think it is wrong if someone claims that he is much better captain than Cook and is also a better limited over batsmen.

    Cook is 7.5/10 in tests and at same level to Inzy IMO.

  21. #21
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    .

    An English ATG for me, mostly for his record in Asia.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Cook lost 0-5 Ashes in Australia, lost to even Lanka at home, and no Asian team has ever won in Aus or SA.Cook won because of the team. You dont win it alone. Your favourite Tendu never won there. So that makes Cook> Tendu.

    Misbah is a far better test captain than Cook and far better odi and t20 batsmen than Cook.

    The guy could score fastest 100 in tests and is at same level to Cook in LoIs lol. He would have been exploited a lot better if played for England in odis.

    Cook was on verge of getting dropped in tests in 2014.
    You don't have to win every series. Winning in Australia, India and South Africa more than makes up for any defeats. England are the only team in this decade who have won in all three of those countries. South Africa have come close but they have missed out on beating India in India.

    Pakistan have not come anywhere close to such achievements. Drawing in England was good, but we lost heavily in South Africa and Australia, and never toured India in this decade. We even lost a Test in Zimbabwe out of all teams, and most cricket boards would have sacked Misbah for that humiliation.

    Misbah isn't a far better captain than Cook. In addition, he is way inferior in Tests and T20 is the only format where he can be considered undoubtedly superior.

    As I said, scoring fastest hundred is an isolated achievement that doesn't mean much. No one cares about these records. For example, Afridi and Corey have both held the fastest ODI hundred record, but does that make them ATG ODI batsmen? No.

    Misbah was dropped at the age of 37 in 2010 and he was threatened to burn his cricket equipment. Only in Pakistan would he have had the opportunity to make a come back. He did well thereafter, but let's not talk about getting dropped.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Let's get this clear for once and all. Many posters consider him an ATG. Do you think he is an ATG given his weaknesses against quality pace bowling?

    He failed in 10 straight consecutive Ashes
    Which ten?

    I would put him fourth among England openers I have seen, behind Boycott. Gooch and Stewart.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Which ten?

    I would put him fourth among England openers I have seen, behind Boycott. Gooch and Stewart.
    None of those three are ATGs.

    Ten consecutive Ashes test matches( 5 in England and 5 in Australia) which were played back to back.

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    Great player. England have struggled so hard since Strauss retired to find a decent opener but Cook has always been there and is a solid player. Never far from a big score. He's still got a few years left playing for England. He most likely will be an English great but not so sure about ATG.

  26. #26
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    Great for Eng, but not an ATG.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    None of those three are ATGs.

    Ten consecutive Ashes test matches( 5 in England and 5 in Australia) which were played back to back.
    Ah, you typed "Ashes" which to an England or Australia fan means a series not a match.

    I didn't say they were ATG, I said they are better than Cook.

    Though I think Stewart would have been one of the greatest English batters if they had not given him the gloves. They missed out on something special.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ah, you typed "Ashes" which to an England or Australia fan means a series not a match.

    I didn't say they were ATG, I said they are better than Cook.

    Though I think Stewart would have been one of the greatest English batters if they had not given him the gloves. They missed out on something special.
    So he is England 4th best opener and is hailed as ATGs by some posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I think he is one of the modern day great openers. There is no single formula for greatness, every careers tells a different story.

    He has scored mountains of runs in series wins in Australia and India, and was Man of the Series on both occasions. In addition, he has been a resilient captain and has won two Ashes series, was the captain when they won in India and has also led them to a series win in South Africa.

    It really doesn't get better than that for an English cricketer in the modern era. Winning and performing in those countries is all that counts, and you don't have to do it every single time in every innings and every series. In addition, opening in Test cricket when you play most of your matches in England is probably the toughest job in the game.

    To survive and perform for that long when others around him have come and gone exhibits hims capacity to absorb pressure. England have tried a staggering number of different opening pairs in the last 10 years, and the only constant has been Cook and for good reason.

    To claim that he is not even an English cricket is ridiculous, and I would argue that he just about gets into the ATG category because of his tremendous mental strength, longevity, impactful series winning efforts and serviceable if not unspectacular captaincy.

    He is not a box office player and he will not be remembered by the majority of the viewers because he doesn't capture their imagination with the bat. However, those who follow the game more intricately and are willing to watch and appreciate the game beyond statistics and have a taste for the finer things in life, would always remember him for his massive contribution to the game and to English cricket.
    Agree with this.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Great for Eng, but not an ATG.
    That leaves not much else to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I think he is one of the modern day great openers. There is no single formula for greatness, every careers tells a different story.

    He has scored mountains of runs in series wins in Australia and India, and was Man of the Series on both occasions. In addition, he has been a resilient captain and has won two Ashes series, was the captain when they won in India and has also led them to a series win in South Africa.

    It really doesn't get better than that for an English cricketer in the modern era. Winning and performing in those countries is all that counts, and you don't have to do it every single time in every innings and every series. In addition, opening in Test cricket when you play most of your matches in England is probably the toughest job in the game.

    To survive and perform for that long when others around him have come and gone exhibits hims capacity to absorb pressure. England have tried a staggering number of different opening pairs in the last 10 years, and the only constant has been Cook and for good reason.

    To claim that he is not even an English cricket is ridiculous, and I would argue that he just about gets into the ATG category because of his tremendous mental strength, longevity, impactful series winning efforts and serviceable if not unspectacular captaincy.

    He is not a box office player and he will not be remembered by the majority of the viewers because he doesn't capture their imagination with the bat. However, those who follow the game more intricately and are willing to watch and appreciate the game beyond statistics and have a taste for the finer things in life, would always remember him for his massive contribution to the game and to English cricket.
    Just had a chance to read this in full. Excellent post and well deserving of the Post of the Week award.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Just had a chance to read this in full. Excellent post and well deserving of the Post of the Week award.
    It is a shame to see people undermine his contribution and achievements because of his xx average against xx bowlers. He has done more for his team than a lot of 50+ averaging batsmen.

  33. #33
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    Yes he did well in one Ashes series out of 6; coincidentally when Aus bowling attack was at it's worst and pretty much the whole batting line up minus Collingwood was also scoring.

    You set your standards too low if you think Cook is anywhere close to ATG. ATG is reserved for players like Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Sanga etc.

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    Anyone who thinks Cook is anywhere near Sachin has got to have their head examined.

    Cook may end up with more centuries but that's more due to the fact that he played about twice the number of tests per year when compared to Sachin.

    That's the main reason why he is so overrated. Check his centuries to tests ratio and you will see it's nothing special.

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    Most English fans consider him an England great not ATG and regard KP as superior test player.

    So there is not much left to debate on. Some people will overhype him and hence the guy gets bashed out otherwise a very respectable player in my view.

  36. #36
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    Great player. Will acquire many longevity records much like Sachin.

  37. #37
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    https://www.thefulltoss.com/england-...nd-tough-runs/

    Very interesting article online. Couple of years old. But basically dissects and shows how Cook is very good at taking advantage of mediocre attacks.

    Contrasts Cook to Atherton who averaged only 37/38 but faced seriously high quality attacks.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketTruth View Post
    https://www.thefulltoss.com/england-...nd-tough-runs/

    Very interesting article online. Couple of years old. But basically dissects and shows how Cook is very good at taking advantage of mediocre attacks.

    Contrasts Cook to Atherton who averaged only 37/38 but faced seriously high quality attacks.
    The article pretty much sums up everything.

    Cook has been lucky to be playing in this era. He would have been Atherton of that era if played in 80s and 90s.

    He should be stopped from getting compared with the greats of the game. An opener job is to do well against quality pace attack and atleast 15-20 openers of alltime are ahead of him in this regard.

    Misbah has done more to Pakistan cricket than Cook to England but that doesn't make Misbah an ATG and Cook is also far from it.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is a shame to see people undermine his contribution and achievements because of his xx average against xx bowlers. He has done more for his team than a lot of 50+ averaging batsmen.
    Had he been Pakistani, people would change their minds.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 2nd November 2017 at 01:25.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    An English great. Not an all time great of the sport - too many holes in his game. But still a top player and more than good enough to plunder runs in the current era.

    KP was the better batsman.
    Fair post. He's a great batsman for sure but not an ATG. Was never the best batsman in the world at any point in his career.

    Quote Originally Posted by InziRules View Post
    One can score somewhat quickly, the other defends and defends.
    I assume you mean Azhar is the former and Cook the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Agree with this.
    9.5 out of 10. A legend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is a shame to see people undermine his contribution and achievements because of his xx average against xx bowlers. He has done more for his team than a lot of 50+ averaging batsmen.
    This is not a charity fundraiser. Keep the same standards for every batsman. For someone who refuses to rate Younis Khan an ATG, you fan after Cook very hard.


  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Fair post. He's a great batsman for sure but not an ATG. Was never the best batsman in the world at any point in his career.



    I assume you mean Azhar is the former and Cook the latter.



    9.5 out of 10. A legend.



    This is not a charity fundraiser. Keep the same standards for every batsman. For someone who refuses to rate Younis Khan an ATG, you fan after Cook very hard.
    But Cook is an ATG who has done so much for England and Misbah is a nobody in front of Cook.

    Also, Misbah =Cook in odis.

    Younis scores in one match against good bowling attack in England. He is still a failure.

    Cook never scores in more than one match ever in a whole series when the bowling attack is good. He is still an ATG.

    Some fans here!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketTruth View Post
    https://www.thefulltoss.com/england-...nd-tough-runs/

    Very interesting article online. Couple of years old. But basically dissects and shows how Cook is very good at taking advantage of mediocre attacks.

    Contrasts Cook to Atherton who averaged only 37/38 but faced seriously high quality attacks.
    This articles proves that Cook has never succeeded against any quality pace attack in his career and hence is well behind all his contemporaries Younis, Amla, Clarke, KP and deVilliers, all have succeeded against 2-3 quality pace attack atleast unlike Cook.

  43. #43
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    Amla in odis = Cook in tests

    Cook misses out on what should be the basic requirement of an opening batsmen- to succeed against some of the quality pace bowling attack.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    This is not a charity fundraiser. Keep the same standards for every batsman. For someone who refuses to rate Younis Khan an ATG, you fan after Cook very hard.
    Younis Khan has not reached those standards. He has not helped Pakistan win any major Test series away from home/outside Asia and has been one of the chief architects of those failures. He has not been able to dominate a series in England, Australia, India and South Africa in spite of playing some good innings here and there.

    He had the opportunity in England last year who were there for the taking, but he blew it with both hands by failing in the first 3 games and ensuring that Pakistan went into the final Test 2-1 down rather than 2-1 up or leveled at 1-1.

    Similarly, his only meaningful contribution in Australia last year came in the dead rubber. Had he helped Pakistan win a series in any of those countries, he would have been an ATG. Unfortunately, his series winning contributions were limited to beating teams in the UAE.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis Khan has not reached those standards. He has not helped Pakistan win any major Test series away from home/outside Asia and has been one of the chief architects of those failures. He has not been able to dominate a series in England, Australia, Indiaand South Africa in spite of playing some good innings here and there.

    He had the opportunity in England last year who were there for the taking, but he blew it with both hands by failing in the first 3 games and ensuring that Pakistan went into the final Test 2-1 down rather than 2-1 up or leveled at 1-1.

    Similarly, his only meaningful contribution in Australia last year came in the dead rubber. Had he helped Pakistan win a series in any of those countries, he would have been an ATG. Unfortunately, his series winning contributions were limited to beating teams in the UAE.
    2004-05 India tour to Pakistan against Kumble and Harbhajan unlike Cook against Ojha and younger Ashwin.

    Outside Asia:

    178 at Headingley
    214 at Oval
    170 at Sydney
    148 at Auckland
    88 at Melbourne

    All these against much better attacks than against whom Cook has scored.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    2004-05 India tour to Pakistan against Kumble and Harbhajan unlike Cook against Ojha and younger Ashwin.

    Outside Asia:

    178 at Headingley
    214 at Oval
    170 at Sydney
    148 at Auckland
    88 at Melbourne

    All these against much better attacks than against whom Cook has scored.
    Read my post again.

    He has played good individual innings in all countries, but he has not been able to dominate and help his team win the series.

    And this talk of good bowlers and mediocre bowlers doesn't mean anything. England were struggling in the bowling department last year but still Younis could not capitalize and failed in his first 6 innings. Anderson was below par because of his shoulder injury, Broad wasn't special, Stokes played only 1 Test and Moeen was bowling pies.

    Woakes was the only bowler who bowled well but he is not a top bowler. Younis has had a very good Test career but his legacy and impact isn't greater than Cook's. He has failed to help his team win series in major countries away from home even though he has had the opportunity, but his lack of ability and poor technique against the moving ball has been exposed throughout his career.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Read my post again.

    He has played good individual innings in all countries, but he has not been able to dominate and help his team win the series.

    And this talk of good bowlers and mediocre bowlers doesn't mean anything. England were struggling in the bowling department last year but still Younis could not capitalize and failed in his first 6 innings. Anderson was below par because of his shoulder injury, Broad wasn't special, Stokes played only 1 Test and Moeen was bowling pies.

    Woakes was the only bowler who bowled well but he is not a top bowler. Younis has had a very good Test career but his legacy and impact isn't greater than Cook's. He has failed to help his team win series in major countries away from home even though he has had the opportunity, but his lack of ability and poor technique against the moving ball has been exposed throughout his career.
    If this means nothing then we can also say that SRT hasnt won a single series for his team outside Asia with the bat in a 18 year whole career.

    Now before you use the bowling attack excuse, YK had to play with a rubbish bowling attack too.

    I am not making a comparison between SRT and YK just explaining your wierd logic.

    Or on that basis, Amla> Gavaskar/ Border and many ATGs which is wrong.

  48. #48
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    ATG opener in the modern era for sure

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    If this means nothing then we can also say that SRT hasnt won a single series for his team outside Asia with the bat in a 18 year whole career.

    Now before you use the bowling attack excuse, YK had to play with a rubbish bowling attack too.

    I am not making a comparison between SRT and YK just explaining your wierd logic.

    Or on that basis, Amla> Gavaskar/ Border and many ATGs which is wrong.
    There is no single measure for greatness. The reason why I brought those overseas wins when discussing Cook and Younis is those two series that Cook had in Australia and India have given him superiority over Younis. If you take those two series out them both players have had similar careers. Sporadic good innings in all countries and frequent struggles against quality pace bowlers in difficult conditions. Both very good players of spin as well in their peak, although Younis was better.

    When it comes to the likes of Tendulkar and Gavaskar etc., they are simply too far ahead of the likes of Amla, Cook, Younis etc. for a comparison to be established. However, when you are comparing two players who are roughly at the same level, then you have to take these factors into consideration.

    Younis is an inferior Test batsman Cook, Amla, Sangakkara, Clarke and Pietersen. Those are 5 best Test batsmen of his era. He is a Pakistani legend but his legacy is not great, but Cook has consistently been among the very best opener of his era, and Smith was the only one who can be considered better than him in terms of the openers who played a lot of cricket in the last 10 years.

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    Coming back to quality pace attack, its pretty shocking to know that Yk has more hundreds outside Asia against quality pace attack than Cook.

    Cook has 4 as per that article and he hasn't got any more hundred against good bowling attack since then.

    Now for YK:

    218 vs Anderson, Broad, Finn, Woakes, Yasir
    175 vs Starc, Hazlewood
    111 vs Steyn, Philander and Morkel
    173 vs Hoggard, Harmisson

    And then many more vs high quality spin and also vs quality pacer at home which isnt taken into consideration. He also did far better than McGrath, Gillespie and Warne as compared to what Cook did.

    And then people talk how rubbish he is vs quality pace bowling.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    There is no single measure for greatness. The reason why I brought those overseas wins when discussing Cook and Younis is those two series that Cook had in Australia and India have given him superiority over Younis. If you take those two series out them both players have had similar careers. Sporadic good innings in all countries and frequent struggles against quality pace bowlers in difficult conditions. Both very good players of spin as well in their peak, although Younis was better.

    When it comes to the likes of Tendulkar and Gavaskar etc., they are simply too far ahead of the likes of Amla, Cook, Younis etc. for a comparison to be established. However, when you are comparing two players who are roughly at the same level, then you have to take these factors into consideration.

    Younis is an inferior Test batsman Cook, Amla, Sangakkara, Clarke and Pietersen. Those are 5 best Test batsmen of his era. He is a Pakistani legend but his legacy is not great, but Cook has consistently been among the very best opener of his era, and Smith was the only one who can be considered better than him in terms of the openers who played a lot of cricket in the last 10 years.
    This is because they did well vs much better bowlers and scored many runs against them which unfortunately you aren't taking into consideration for YK vs Cook comparison.

    And among last 10 years, you forgot to mention Matthew Hayden and Virender Sehwag( tough call) a far better opener than Cook.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    This is because they did well vs much better bowlers and scored many runs against them which unfortunately you aren't taking into consideration for YK vs Cook comparison.

    And among last 10 years, you forgot to mention Matthew Hayden and Virender Sehwag( tough call) a far better opener than Cook.
    Hayden retired in 2009 and Sehwag was past his best by the time Cook got going. Calling them openers of the same era as Cook is a massive stretch.

    Younis has never been good enough to score against swing and seam. Most of his runs have come on flat decks, and similarly Cook has had issues with swing and seam as well. However, in spite of those flaws, he has been able to dominate series in Australia and India and helped his team win. When Younis has had the opportunity to do the same, he has not been able to capitalize.

    Last year in England, one good knock in Old Trafford and Edgabston could have won the series for Pakistan, but Younis went completely missing until the 4th Test where the best Pakistan could do was level the series.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    And de Villiers also.
    Sangakkara is the best Test batsman of this era in my view, but you could rank Cook, Amla, Clarke and Pietersen in any order. I would rank de Villiers below Younis. He is overrated in Tests.

  54. #54
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    Brilliant player.

    Definite English great.

    He truly has refined the art of piling on the runs even if it is done at his own pace.


    May the Hawks Fly Forever. Lightning Hawks CC -- Team Thread.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Hayden retired in 2009 and Sehwag was past his best by the time Cook got going. Calling them openers of the same era as Cook is a massive stretch.

    Younis has never been good enough to score against swing and seam. Most of his runs have come on flat decks, and similarly Cook has had issues with swing and seam as well. However, in spite of those flaws, he has been able to dominate series in Australia and India and helped his team win. When Younis has had the opportunity to do the same, he has not been able to capitalize.

    Last year in England, one good knock in Old Trafford and Edgabston could have won the series for Pakistan, but Younis went completely missing until the 4th Test where the best Pakistan could do was level the series.
    If we are leaving out Hayden and Sehwag and Cook is inferior to Smith, who else left?

    Yes, he is better than Azhar, Warner, Latham and xyz. And Warner also has a test series win in SA against a top quality SA attack.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Sangakkara is the best Test batsman of this era in my view, but you could rank Cook, Amla, Clarke and Pietersen in any order. I would rank de Villiers below Younis. He is overrated in Tests.
    Why? If I recall he has also contributed in test series win in Australia (2008 and 2012) twice unlike Cook or Amla who did it once and I think drew in India and UAE( that I remember against Ajmal) and I dont recall any major failure for him during his peak phase 2008-2015.

    And didn't he fared well vs peak Johnson who toyed with England batting lineup of Cook, Trott, KP, Root and Bell in 2013 Ashes.

    There are more exploits in odis though.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Why? If I recall he has also contributed in test series win in Australia (2008 and 2012) twice unlike Cook or Amla who did it once and I think drew in India and UAE( that I remember against Ajmal) and I dont recall any major failure for him during his peak phase 2008-2015.

    And didn't he fared well vs peak Johnson who toyed with England batting lineup of Cook, Trott, KP, Root and Bell in 2013 Ashes.

    There are more exploits in odis though.
    And was also the leading run scorer for SA in 2008 tour to England which SA won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Why? If I recall he has also contributed in test series win in Australia (2008 and 2012) twice unlike Cook or Amla who did it once and I think drew in India and UAE( that I remember against Ajmal) and I dont recall any major failure for him during his peak phase 2008-2015.

    And didn't he fared well vs peak Johnson who toyed with England batting lineup of Cook, Trott, KP, Root and Bell in 2013 Ashes.

    There are more exploits in odis though.
    Because he isn't an Indian or Englishmen.

    If AB would have been Indian, he would have been hailed as 2nd greatest odi batsmen of all time. LOL!

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    Brilliant player.

    Definite English great.

    He truly has refined the art of piling on the runs even if it is done at his own pace.
    He has not even done this. There were plenty of batsman who did this better than him before him, and plenty after him including one in his own team who is a much better player (Root).

    He's refined the art of playing a lot of test matches per year thus getting the opportunity to get high aggregate numbers.

    Give Ross Taylor the chance to play that many tests and he will have the same number of runs.

  60. #60
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    An England great but not an ATG.

    I rate
    Hashim Amla,
    Michael Clarke,
    Kevin Pieterson and
    AB de Villiers

    ahead of Cook.

    Matthews won us a test series in England under Cook captaincy. I dont know if we can ever draw one in Aus and SA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Amla is a much better ODI opener than Cook is. Amla is a master at his primary job which is to bat long and score loads of runs at a good SR. Cook is average at his primary job which is to see off the opposition's strike bowlers and do well in seam and swing friendly conditions.



    How many Asian batsmen have won their teams series outside Asia? No one has done it in Australia or South Africa, that is for sure.

    Younis Khan helped Pakistan level a series in England and reach the #1 spot in the test rankings, that is as good as it gets for a Pakistani batsman. He also became the first batsman to reach 10,000 test runs and that is also as good as it gets for a Pakistani batsman.

    You said that removing Cook's series in India and Australia leaves nothing between him and Younis but that is far from reality. The reality is that Younis has done better than Cook almost everywhere in the world, has consistently been ranked higher and can lay claim to a much greater number of great innings than Cook can.

    Not to mention, that Younis has almost always outscored Cook when it comes to Pakistan vs England test series. Younis is the better batsman and an ATG. Cook however, is one level below in the 'great' tier, alongside KP, Clarke and Inzamam.
    If we remove those two series, their is nothing much left to talk about in Cook's whole career.

    His small hundreds vs McGrath/Warne, Steyn/ Philander or Asif/ Amir were those knocks where he averaged 24-25 in those tours.

    294 against an attack which has no Yasir or Ajmal or any good bowler on flattest track of all time is what is left to talk of.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 2nd November 2017 at 19:02.

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    @Bilal7, openers job is different in odis and tests.

    Amla in odis = Cook in tests

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Why? If I recall he has also contributed in test series win in Australia (2008 and 2012) twice unlike Cook or Amla who did it once and I think drew in India and UAE( that I remember against Ajmal) and I dont recall any major failure for him during his peak phase 2008-2015.

    And didn't he fared well vs peak Johnson who toyed with England batting lineup of Cook, Trott, KP, Root and Bell in 2013 Ashes.

    There are more exploits in odis though.
    Well, I would argue that Johnson didn’t cope very well with peak Cook either.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, I would argue that Johnson didn’t cope very well with peak Cook either.
    Johnson was average bowler back then.

    Against mediocre bowlers, Cook will always be at his peak.

    Johnson of 2013-14 was at a much different level to the usual one.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, I would argue that Johnson didn’t cope very well with peak Cook either.
    And anyways ABD, johnson and cook are approx same in tests.I was replying to @Mamoon who rates devilliers below all those names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    If we are leaving out Hayden and Sehwag and Cook is inferior to Smith, who else left?

    Yes, he is better than Azhar, Warner, Latham and xyz. And Warner also has a test series win in SA against a top quality SA attack.
    That is the point. Opening in Test cricket and being successful for over 100+ Tests is not an easy task. In any era, there are many elite middle-order batsmen but very few elite openers. There is a good reason why the game has seen many 50+ averaging openers but very few 50+ averaging openers.

    Opening in Test cricket in England is the hardest job to do. All the middle-order batsmen that you are referring too would have lower averages if they open on a regular basis in England, but Cook would actually be more prolific in the middle-order.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Why? If I recall he has also contributed in test series win in Australia (2008 and 2012) twice unlike Cook or Amla who did it once and I think drew in India and UAE( that I remember against Ajmal) and I dont recall any major failure for him during his peak phase 2008-2015.

    And didn't he fared well vs peak Johnson who toyed with England batting lineup of Cook, Trott, KP, Root and Bell in 2013 Ashes.

    There are more exploits in odis though.
    There are a few reasons why I don't rate de Villiers very highly in Tests. For most of his career, SA were the best Test team in the world and he was in the shadow of players like Steyn, Kallis, Smith and Amla, all of whom have made more important contributions to the Test team. He has played some great individual innings, but I don't feel that he is capable of carrying a lineup the same way the likes of Younis, Clarke, Sangakkara etc. have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is the point. Opening in Test cricket and being successful for over 100+ Tests is not an easy task. In any era, there are many elite middle-order batsmen but very few elite openers. There is a good reason why the game has seen many 50+ averaging openers but very few 50+ averaging openers.

    Opening in Test cricket in England is the hardest job to do. All the middle-order batsmen that you are referring too would have lower averages if they open on a regular basis in England, but Cook would actually be more prolific in the middle-order.
    Opening and perhaps even batting at #3 in South Africa is the hardest thing in test cricket. There is a reason even Graeme Smith averages in the low-40s there and several ATG/great batsmen have failed in that country.

    On the other hand, plenty of batsmen have done well in England and a good number of Asian batsmen too.

    Warner's record in South Africa is an anomaly.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    There are a few reasons why I don't rate de Villiers very highly in Tests. For most of his career, SA were the best Test team in the world and he was in the shadow of players like Steyn, Kallis, Smith and Amla, all of whom have made more important contributions to the Test team. He has played some great individual innings, but I don't feel that he is capable of carrying a lineup the same way the likes of Younis, Clarke, Sangakkara etc. have.
    Cook has always been in the shadow of KP, Strauss, Trott, Bell and now, Joe Root and Johnny Bairstow. Forget about ever being the best in the world.

    Apart from that great Ashes series he had, he's been one-upped by someone else from his team, with the bat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is the point. Opening in Test cricket and being successful for over 100+ Tests is not an easy task. In any era, there are many elite middle-order batsmen but very few elite openers. There is a good reason why the game has seen many 50+ averaging openers but very few 50+ averaging openers.

    Opening in Test cricket in England is the hardest job to do. All the middle-order batsmen that you are referring too would have lower averages if they open on a regular basis in England, but Cook would actually be more prolific in the middle-order.
    And then imagine you have the likes of Fleming, Atherton, Kirsten, Langer and Hayden opening the innings against ATG bowlers in 90s and early 00s. How underrated are they in comparison to Cook who has to gel only with Australian and Saffers attack?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    There are a few reasons why I don't rate de Villiers very highly in Tests. For most of his career, SA were the best Test team in the world and he was in the shadow of players like Steyn, Kallis, Smith and Amla, all of whom have made more important contributions to the Test team. He has played some great individual innings, but I don't feel that he is capable of carrying a lineup the same way the likes of Younis, Clarke, Sangakkara etc. have.
    It can be arguable that between 2008-2015, de Villiers has contributed more than Kallis who mostly went missing in those big series in Australia and England and was more consistent than many of his contemporaries.

    Anyways,that is not the point of discussion. I will assume that they are all at same level with Smith and Amla ranked higher.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    And then imagine you have the likes of Fleming, Atherton, Kirsten, Langer and Hayden opening the innings against ATG bowlers in 90s and early 00s. How underrated are they in comparison to Cook who has to gel only with Australian and Saffers attack?
    It's not about simply facing the best bowlers, it's about doing well against them. Cook has failed against every good attack that has come up against him.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Opening and perhaps even batting at #3 in South Africa is the hardest thing in test cricket. There is a reason even Graeme Smith averages in the low-40s there and several ATG/great batsmen have failed in that country.

    On the other hand, plenty of batsmen have done well in England and a good number of Asian batsmen too.

    Warner's record in South Africa is an anomaly.
    Only if you could explain this.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is the point. Opening in Test cricket and being successful for over 100+ Tests is not an easy task. In any era, there are many elite middle-order batsmen but very few elite openers. There is a good reason why the game has seen many 50+ averaging openers but very few 50+ averaging openers.

    Opening in Test cricket in England is the hardest job to do. All the middle-order batsmen that you are referring too would have lower averages if they open on a regular basis in England, but Cook would actually be more prolific in the middle-order.
    Hayden is better than Cook but no one considers him ATG. They consider him a great player but not at the same level as a true ATG opener like Gavaskar.

    As for the opening in England is tough: I agree with you in general but these days even in England some of the pitches are quite flat. Lords and Oval for example are quite nice for batting.

    I have mentioned this at some point before but check out Cook's record at Trent Bridge where the ball swings around.

    351 runs for 16 dismissals at an average of under 22!!! A highest score of 50 in 17 innings!

    And even that includes a cheap 43 not out he got against West Indies when England needed 100 to win. Pretty shocking for a so called ATG.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It's not about simply facing the best bowlers, it's about doing well against them. Cook has failed against every good attack that has come up against him.
    Yet he is an ATG and Kirsten and Langer have fared much better, even Stewart ( underrated lad) but they arent.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Only if you could explain this.
    Maybe just a good day or two for Warner. It has happened before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketTruth View Post
    https://www.thefulltoss.com/england-...nd-tough-runs/

    Very interesting article online. Couple of years old. But basically dissects and shows how Cook is very good at taking advantage of mediocre attacks.

    Contrasts Cook to Atherton who averaged only 37/38 but faced seriously high quality attacks.
    That's a superb article.

    Cook has not done enough against quality pace bowling - I'd rate Atherton higher in this regard and let's not forget Atherton had back problems that significantly hampered his career. Its quite striking reading that list of Cook's Test centuries just how poor some of those bowling attacks are.

    Cook's Ashes record is nothing to write home about either other than the 2010-11 series where Australia had a very weak attack. Against spin though he's been one of England's better batsmen, problems against Jadeja last winter aside.

    Cook is also limited as a strokeplayer, though an excellent grinder. Despite these flaws, he's still the best opener available to England currently. There's a dearth of technically solid openers and so England won't want to lose Cook for the time being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis Khan has not reached those standards. He has not helped Pakistan win any major Test series away from home/outside Asia and has been one of the chief architects of those failures. He has not been able to dominate a series in England, Australia, India and South Africa in spite of playing some good innings here and there.
    The reason we didn't win in 2005 and 2007 in India is because we had a desperately weak bowling attack. I wouldn't blame the batsmen or claim Younis was one of the main reasons for us failing to win.

    Younis was statistically our best batsman on that 2005 tour, scoring a career saving hundred in the Kolkata Test before even outshining Inzamam in Bangalore with a series saving double ton so its bizarre to use his India record as a stick to beat him with.

    Fans overestimate the effect one individual can have on winning a series and its an unfair standard to judge players. Cricket is ultimately a team game. Brian Lara was outstanding in the 2001 tour of Sri Lanka but his heroics meant nothing as the rest of the West Indies team was so weak that it got whitewashed 3-0.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Coming back to quality pace attack, its pretty shocking to know that Yk has more hundreds outside Asia against quality pace attack than Cook.

    Cook has 4 as per that article and he hasn't got any more hundred against good bowling attack since then.

    Now for YK:

    218 vs Anderson, Broad, Finn, Woakes, Yasir
    175 vs Starc, Hazlewood
    111 vs Steyn, Philander and Morkel
    173 vs Hoggard, Harmisson

    And then many more vs high quality spin and also vs quality pacer at home which isnt taken into consideration. He also did far better than McGrath, Gillespie and Warne as compared to what Cook did.

    And then people talk how rubbish he is vs quality pace bowling.
    2 of them came when he was 40+. Imagine how many more of these innings he could have played had he played against these teams as often as Cook does.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis Khan has not reached those standards. He has not helped Pakistan win any major Test series away from home/outside Asia and has been one of the chief architects of those failures. He has not been able to dominate a series in England, Australia, India and South Africa in spite of playing some good innings here and there.

    He had the opportunity in England last year who were there for the taking, but he blew it with both hands by failing in the first 3 games and ensuring that Pakistan went into the final Test 2-1 down rather than 2-1 up or leveled at 1-1.

    Similarly, his only meaningful contribution in Australia last year came in the dead rubber. Had he helped Pakistan win a series in any of those countries, he would have been an ATG. Unfortunately, his series winning contributions were limited to beating teams in the UAE.
    How many series has Tendulkar won with his batting in those countries? The hypocrisy here is mind-boggling.


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