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  1. #1
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    Are the Indian cricket team bottlers in Test cricket?

    I may get some stick here but yes, that is what I believe India's case has been. I feel that when it come to the real format of the game, test cricket, India have failed to seize the big moments of the game and turn the game by the scruff of its neck like a great test team do.

    No doubt, at the moment, they are no.1 Test team but this is like a famous phrase "Andhon me kaana Raja".Other teams are just so poor that India are clearly no.1 Test team at the moment.

    But just like in limited overs, the pinnacle is World Cup Win, in a same way, in Tests, the pinnacle is overseas test series wins in countries like Australia, England, South Africa and India.

    I have followed pretty much each of the last few tours of India to South Africa and they have always bottled it from a winning situation whether it was in 2006, 2010, 2013 or even 2018 tour. They just dont have the ability to turn it on in test cricket and win the series.

    In Australia, they failed to turn it on in 2003 series, although it can be argued that they didnt had bowlers to win and were unlucky with the umpiring in 2007 series but they have also collapsed from winning position in India tour to Australia 2014 in a couple of matches. It was not long ago, when Pietersen & Cook came to India and turned the series on its own after losing the first test of the series. Not many teams make a comeback in away series after losing the first test but England did it.

    To conclude, many like to say that South Africans are bottlers in ICC tournament but I feel India are as much a bottler as them when it comes to winning overseas in Test cricket.

    Discuss!
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 5th August 2018 at 17:19.

  2. #2
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    Not in familiar conditions but outside Asia and eslecially in 4th innings chase after Adelaide 2014, Colombo 2015, Capetown 2018 and Edgbaston 2018, fair to say we cannot chase totals in 4th innings. Only thing that can change this stat is if Kohli started to remain not out in chases like he's done so many times in ODIs and T20s.

  3. #3
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    @freelance_cricketer, bhaijaan analysis is very important before we come to any kind of conclusion. Feel free to express your opinion on it.

  4. #4
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    Indians are bullies at home only. They cant win overseas.

  5. #5
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    India vs England since 2011:-

    2011- England 4-0
    2012- England 2-1
    2014- England 3-1
    2016- India 4-0
    2018- England 1-0 till now

    Overall:- India 6
    England 10

    Pakistan vs England since 2010:-

    2010- England 3-1
    2012- Pakistan 3-0
    2015- Pakistan 2-0
    2016- Drawn 2-2
    2018- Drawn 1-1

    Overall:- Pakistan 9
    England 6

  6. #6
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    Outside of India, they have bottled a lot of close games recently. This match against England, against SA at the start of the year and also one match in Australia where they looked to be on course for a successful chase and then collapsed.

  7. #7
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    Pakistan has lost some very winnable tests as well, so it's not just India's problem.

    What we've done in Austaralia is a total and complete embarrassment. Some of the tests we've ended up losing there have been downright down to being nerves.

    First and second test in 99'.
    Sydney test.
    2018 MCG and SCG. Even tho there was a log of fight in the Gabba test, it shouldn't have reached that stage.

    We've done the same in South Africa, dropping dollies, letting tailenders score soft soft soft runs. We may have an okayish record in England but it should have been a lot better. Of the top of my head, we've lost about 4 matches there that should have been easily won and at best drawn with ease.

    The last tour in Newzealand, we lost 8 wickets in a session and it was a really stupid defeat. Even in West Indies some pretty soft defeats from very impregnable positions have happened.


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  8. #8
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    Not only india all team are home track bully or famliour condition bully,but india is best home track bully now

  9. #9
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    India deserve the number 1 test status. Letís be clear about this. Simply due to their results at home and because no-one else has done better.

    However - this simply papers over the cracks. Are India the best test team on sheer ability alone? NO

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Pakistan has lost some very winnable tests as well, so it's not just India's problem.

    What we've done in Austaralia is a total and complete embarrassment. Some of the tests we've ended up losing there have been downright down to being nerves.

    First and second test in 99'.
    Sydney test.
    2018 MCG and SCG. Even tho there was a log of fight in the Gabba test, it shouldn't have reached that stage.

    We've done the same in South Africa, dropping dollies, letting tailenders score soft soft soft runs. We may have an okayish record in England but it should have been a lot better. Of the top of my head, we've lost about 4 matches there that should have been easily won and at best drawn with ease.

    The last tour in Newzealand, we lost 8 wickets in a session and it was a really stupid defeat. Even in West Indies some pretty soft defeats from very impregnable positions have happened.
    I remember the 'clicky bat handle' excuse being thrown in after the famous hobart test in 99 when Gilchrist and Langer chased down a 300+ target.

    Then in 2013 we let ROBIN PETERSON defy us a win at the Cape Town Test.

    The less said about Sydney 2010 the better.

    While for me the hardest loss to swallow was the 2000 Antigua test match where Billy Doctrove trolled us and Jimmy Adams helped West Indies deny a us a win - I mean Wasim bowled his heart out and yet it wasn't enough Took us another 17 years to get our first series win in the Carebbian.

    There are many other similar to this but I rather not open any other wounds

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Pakistan has lost some very winnable tests as well, so it's not just India's problem.

    What we've done in Austaralia is a total and complete embarrassment. Some of the tests we've ended up losing there have been downright down to being nerves.

    First and second test in 99'.
    Sydney test.
    2018 MCG and SCG. Even tho there was a log of fight in the Gabba test, it shouldn't have reached that stage.

    We've done the same in South Africa, dropping dollies, letting tailenders score soft soft soft runs. We may have an okayish record in England but it should have been a lot better. Of the top of my head, we've lost about 4 matches there that should have been easily won and at best drawn with ease.

    The last tour in Newzealand, we lost 8 wickets in a session and it was a really stupid defeat. Even in West Indies some pretty soft defeats from very impregnable positions have happened.
    There are few instances out there for everyone but in general, Pakistan have always upped their game whether it is ICC tournaments or Test cricket.

    Pakistan just drew a test series in England with very young players who were yet to establish themselves, let alone hit the peak.

    They drew a test series in England even when their main batsmen, Younis Khan was all over the sea and outta nowhere he produced a blinder and not only won the match but drew the series. They also drew a series in NZ under Misbah's team.

    Not long ago before Pakistan won an ODI series in South Africa which by no means they had a team to win there. That was the phase when Pakistan were having crisis as ODI team.

    Again, outta nowhere in CT 17, Pakistan went on to win three consecutive big games against three favourites- South Africa, England and India and sealed the Champions Trophy.

    India is having a much better team. So, obviously at this point they will win more but they have failed to be an opportunitist like Pakistan have been in Test Cricket. Even non-Asian teams like SA or England have won series by seizing off big moments in Test cricket like SA did in Aus 2012 or England did in India 2012.

  12. #12
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    More than bottling, they came very close to winning compared to other Asian teams.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuskash View Post
    More than bottling, they came very close to winning compared to other Asian teams.
    compared to which other Asian team? Are you including Afghanistan/ Bangladesh? Both Pakistan and Srilanka have won games in England before. Actually I would go as far as to say winning in England for Asian teams (Including India) doesnt seem to be as hard as winning in AUS/NZ/SA!

    This Indian team ranked No.1 should really win this series or we can say the number 1 status is only due to home game safely. We must remember its not the best English side playing against number 1 ranked side. If India dont win the would have surely bottled it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakhs View Post
    compared to which other Asian team? Are you including Afghanistan/ Bangladesh? Both Pakistan and Srilanka have won games in England before. Actually I would go as far as to say winning in England for Asian teams (Including India) doesnt seem to be as hard as winning in AUS/NZ/SA!

    This Indian team ranked No.1 should really win this series or we can say the number 1 status is only due to home game safely. We must remember its not the best English side playing against number 1 ranked side. If India dont win the would have surely bottled it.
    The thread is about bottling in general, not bottling only against ENG. We should take a note of performances against other teams as well. A lose is lose, no matter what. They came very close to winning against SA and AUS on top of ENG more than any other asian teams.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuskash View Post
    The thread is about bottling in general, not bottling only against ENG. We should take a note of performances against other teams as well. A lose is lose, no matter what. They came very close to winning against SA and AUS on top of ENG more than any other asian teams.
    The tread has some millage specially if they dont win this current tour which is against a lower ranked side not at their best. If they dont win this then they can be classed bottlers in my opinion. some people might say they even bottled it against SA! but I would say not because even thought India was ranked number 1 nobody actually bought it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakhs View Post
    The tread has some millage specially if they dont win this current tour which is against a lower ranked side not at their best. If they dont win this then they can be classed bottlers in my opinion. some people might say they even bottled it against SA! but I would say not because even thought India was ranked number 1 nobody actually bought it.
    There is no undisputed number 1 team at present. Everyone does well at home but not good away.

  17. #17
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    What do you mean just in Test cricket?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuskash View Post
    There is no undisputed number 1 team at present. Everyone does well at home but not good away.
    I agree but still I would say they should beat this England side for two reasons. One for asian teams England has not been the hardest place to win second this is not a great England side and Indians been claiming theirs are.

  19. #19
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    They have performed in pressure occasions. Kohli seems to be the only current batsmen in the team who can perform in all conditions on a consistent basis.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    What do you mean just in Test cricket?
    They dont bottle in LO. Won CT and WC 2 times. Have won ODI series everywhere as well.

  21. #21
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    India has worst win % outside Asia since 2011

    Last edited by hadi123; 7th August 2018 at 14:48.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagestani_Eagle View Post
    India has worst win % outside Asia since 2011

    This might prove that Indian team are not bottlers but just lack of skill? Generally bottlers are when you are suppose to win but dont?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakhs View Post
    This might prove that Indian team are not bottlers but just lack of skill? Generally bottlers are when you are suppose to win but dont?
    Or it may due to they do not play with minnows much outside Asia!!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagestani_Eagle View Post
    India has worst win % outside Asia since 2011

    This image is a bit outdated. They are above BD now (in that timeframe)

    Team Mat Won Lost Draw W/L Ave RPO HS LS Win %
    Australia 65 39 16 10 2.437 39.75 3.58 662 47 60%
    South Africa 58 34 12 12 2.833 37.02 3.28 637 83 59%
    England 74 34 24 16 1.416 35.02 3.33 710 58 46%
    New Zealand 52 22 17 13 1.294 34.26 3.33 680 45 42%
    Pakistan 25 10 14 1 0.714 27.99 2.91 542 49 40%
    West Indies 53 15 26 12 0.576 27.62 2.97 522 93 28%
    Sri Lanka 26 5 16 5 0.312 27.06 3.2 537 82 19%
    Zimbabwe 18 3 14 1 0.214 24.42 2.77 412 51 17%
    India 33 5 18 10 0.277 29.04 3.15 566 94 15%
    Bangladesh 11 1 10 0 0.1 22.18 3.22 595 43 9%


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  25. #25
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    How did Zim managed 3 wins and also SL 5 wins?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    How did Zim managed 3 wins and also SL 5 wins?
    The filter is for outside Asia, so Zimbabwe's home games count. They've beaten Bangladesh twice and Pakistan once

    Sri Lanka beat SA in SA once in 2011, England in England once in 2014, 2 wins in Zim and one in WI.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    @freelance_cricketer, bhaijaan analysis is very important before we come to any kind of conclusion. Feel free to express your opinion on it.
    No.

    This is an overreaction. India were against huge odds to win this test. They opted to bat last in this test. It was a blunder but they showed great fight to recover from it to a great deal until they allowed England's lead reach near 200 which under those conditions and against those bowlers was always gonna be an uphill task. Not a single test team in the world would have pulled off that chase.

    India are the better team and should learn their lessons from this defeat.

    Classic thumb rule of cricket, always bat first. Maybe not in LOI cricket on a pitch with bit of movement expected early on otherwise you always bat first. India screwed themselved in 2003 wc final and in 2016 CT semi final by not ceasing the opportunity to bat the opposition out of the game in great batting conditions.

    Never forget your lessons.

    Rejuvenated India should win this series 3-1

    Bhaijaan

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    The filter is for outside Asia, so Zimbabwe's home games count. They've beaten Bangladesh twice and Pakistan once

    Sri Lanka beat SA in SA once in 2011, England in England once in 2014, 2 wins in Zim and one in WI.
    So, against Aus/SA/NZ/Eng

    SL - 2 Wins
    Pak - 4 Wins(1 vs NZ, 3 vs Eng)
    Ind - 2 Wins

    However, it is important to note that Pakistan have lost two test matches to WI and one to Zim while SL have lost to WI as well. India never lost a test match to either of them and have defeated WI twice(2011 & 2016 series).

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuskash View Post
    More than bottling, they came very close to winning compared to other Asian teams.
    Bottling doesn't mean you aren't good enough or you dont have skill-set to win. It means you come close to winning, yet lose it from a winning situation.

    India have been the best Asian team since the start of the Millenium. That is not the debate. However, they have failed to show up good results outside Asia because they have bottled up several times from winning position.

    This team should have won a lot more than what they have won as far as outside Asia is concerned.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakhs View Post
    This might prove that Indian team are not bottlers but just lack of skill? Generally bottlers are when you are suppose to win but dont?
    These are just numbers. When you do micro-analysis and look at how the whole things have gone, you will find that India are the best Asian team in the world in terms of skill-set, yet they haven't won much because they have bottled more often than not since 2011.

  31. #31
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    Certainly bottled the 1st Test at Edgbaston being in a commanding position and then allowing a youngster to score so freely and quickly. The bottling continued when they were on course to chase the target down with 50/60 runs and wickets in hand.

    However this can be an important learning curve esp with 4 test remaining. Let's see what happens in the series before tagging them with this label.


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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    No.

    This is an overreaction. India were against huge odds to win this test. They opted to bat last in this test. It was a blunder but they showed great fight to recover from it to a great deal until they allowed England's lead reach near 200 which under those conditions and against those bowlers was always gonna be an uphill task. Not a single test team in the world would have pulled off that chase.

    India are the better team and should learn their lessons from this defeat.

    Classic thumb rule of cricket, always bat first. Maybe not in LOI cricket on a pitch with bit of movement expected early on otherwise you always bat first. India screwed themselved in 2003 wc final and in 2016 CT semi final by not ceasing the opportunity to bat the opposition out of the game in great batting conditions.

    Never forget your lessons.

    Rejuvenated India should win this series 3-1

    Bhaijaan
    Fantastic analysis by Bhaijaan. However, you have to understand that the overreaction isn't coming from one match.

    There have been several instances now where India have bottled test matches in overseas conditions from the winning position. Just a few from my memory only:-

    Johannesburg 2014( where AB/Faf almost chased 459 on a day 5 pitch)
    Wellington 2014( The worst of all when McCullum scored a 300 and drew a match in which India were having a lead of 250 runs after the end of first inning)
    Adelaide 2014
    Cape town 2018
    Edgabastan 2018

    Clearly, India, even though they have been the best Asian team in this decade, have failed to take the game by the scruff of its neck on more than several occassions now. They just lack the mentality to win series against top teams overseas.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 7th August 2018 at 23:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    This image is a bit outdated. They are above BD now (in that timeframe)

    Team Mat Won Lost Draw W/L Ave RPO HS LS Win %
    Australia 65 39 16 10 2.437 39.75 3.58 662 47 60%
    South Africa 58 34 12 12 2.833 37.02 3.28 637 83 59%
    England 74 34 24 16 1.416 35.02 3.33 710 58 46%
    New Zealand 52 22 17 13 1.294 34.26 3.33 680 45 42%
    Pakistan 25 10 14 1 0.714 27.99 2.91 542 49 40%
    West Indies 53 15 26 12 0.576 27.62 2.97 522 93 28%
    Sri Lanka 26 5 16 5 0.312 27.06 3.2 537 82 19%
    Zimbabwe 18 3 14 1 0.214 24.42 2.77 412 51 17%
    India 33 5 18 10 0.277 29.04 3.15 566 94 15%
    Bangladesh 11 1 10 0 0.1 22.18 3.22 595 43 9%
    Pakistan sure is consistent- maintaining a win ratio of 40%


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  34. #34
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    Not only tests, we are the new chokers of cricket, Asia cup 2014, CT 2017 are some prime examples where our teams took win as a formality and bottled it, there are numerous single ODIs as well and tests abroad are a plenty

  35. #35
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    Didn’t bottle it at Birmingham - just lacked the skill set to stay in and score against the swinging ball.

    Too much LO cricket?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Didn’t bottle it at Birmingham - just lacked the skill set to stay in and score against the swinging ball.

    Too much LO cricket?
    Not due to LOI cricket but they were playing at a conditions they dont face at home. Eng would struggle same way against spin in India. Hell they couldnt even face Kuldeep Yadav at home

    Its the way it is....all teams are home bully these days. Same Eng team got thrashed in Aust at Ashes. The issue is only when Asian team fails overseas, it gets highlighted but no one brings up non Asian teams struggle in Asia. Recently SL beat SA at home, how many people talking about it??
    #Hypocracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    Not due to LOI cricket but they were playing at a conditions they dont face at home. Eng would struggle same way against spin in India. Hell they couldnt even face Kuldeep Yadav at home

    Its the way it is....all teams are home bully these days. Same Eng team got thrashed in Aust at Ashes. The issue is only when Asian team fails overseas, it gets highlighted but no one brings up non Asian teams struggle in Asia. Recently SL beat SA at home, how many people talking about it??
    #Hypocracy
    South Africa or England didnít claim to be the best team on the planet. The threads here before this defeat were mind-blowing insufferable

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuskash View Post
    Or it may due to they do not play with minnows much outside Asia!!!!
    When did other teams play against minnows outside Asia in test matches? The only team who has improved their stats by beating minnows outside Asia is India as they have won maximum number of matches against Windies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    These are just numbers. When you do micro-analysis and look at how the whole things have gone, you will find that India are the best Asian team in the world in terms of skill-set, yet they haven't won much because they have bottled more often than not since 2011.
    You are giving excuses for them! the reality would be if a team fails to win regularly in certain conditions that would mean they lack skill set to succeed in those conditions. Still we have to wait until the end of current series to be 100% sure of that as this current set of players did reasonably well in SA so lets see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Fantastic analysis by Bhaijaan. However, you have to understand that the overreaction isn't coming from one match.

    There have been several instances now where India have bottled test matches in overseas conditions from the winning position. Just a few from my memory only:-

    Johannesburg 2014( where AB/Faf almost chased 459 on a day 5 pitch)
    Wellington 2014( The worst of all when McCullum scored a 300 and drew a match in which India were having a lead of 250 runs after the end of first inning)
    Adelaide 2014
    Cape town 2018
    Edgabastan 2018

    Clearly, India, even though they have been the best Asian team in this decade, have failed to take the game by the scruff of its neck on more than several occassions now. They just lack the mentality to win series against top teams overseas.
    I will ignore the MS Dhoni phase. He had no clue how to manage his test bowlers. He literally ruined careers of every potentially great test bowler we had during his reign.

    Under Kohli, India's winning and competing abroad like it did under Ganguly, probably even better. Suddenly this team looks like one which has no issues in taking 20 wickets.

    Let us wit for the series to be over and then judge this team.

  41. #41
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    Bottlers for a reason.

    Just cant win from precarious situations of the match. Not a single great inning from any batsmen or any bowling spell that changed the whole match on its head.

    And loses games from strong position as well.

  42. #42
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    Was expecting better things from them today.

    The wicket today was not horrendous and the reality is that they should have made a better effort than they did. Some really poor shots from players who should know better.



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    Yes, kind of. They keep losing tight games, games that they should win. 5-1, in their last two overseas series, excluding dead rubbers.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  44. #44
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    Thrashed in the end.

  45. #45
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    Poor chasers.Bottlers.

  46. #46
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    Absolute bottlers.

    Kohli has been the only bright spot in the batting department.

  47. #47
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    Bottling it against Beard is one example as well. Kohlig got out in first inning and then they collapsed although a short revival by Pujara but things changed foe them around there.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Bottling it against Beard is one example as well. Kohlig got out in first inning and then they collapsed although a short revival by Pujara but things changed foe them around there.
    Batting wise, this team is more dependent on Kohli as it was on Sachin in the 90s. I feel the bowling attack now is better, but no batsman in Dravid , Azhar or even Ganguly class. Rahane , Pujara etc will contribute in one innings in the whole series but will most likely fail in the rest.

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    Seemed like a disjointed effort.

    As if they were hoping that Kohli would see them through.



  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Ball View Post
    Batting wise, this team is more dependent on Kohli as it was on Sachin in the 90s. I feel the bowling attack now is better, but no batsman in Dravid , Azhar or even Ganguly class. Rahane , Pujara etc will contribute in one innings in the whole series but will most likely fail in the rest.
    Won't say more dependant as the story was similar back then. Dravid reached his peak in 2000s only, while Pujara and Rahane are in the league of Azhar and Ganguly IMO. Ganguly atleast added massively with his captaincy. Others here are useless mostly.

    None outside Kohli is in league of even VVS.

  51. #51
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    India choked the series

    TO be honest with you guys. India could had easily won the first and the 4th test.

    The targets were chase-able and it wasn't an asian spin wicket which deteriorates over the course of 5 days.


    "Life is Pain"
    ~House~

  52. #52
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    This one should be put in my thread " Are Indian team bottlers in test cricket".

  53. #53
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    Looks like it.

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    Ashwin in particular choked in this series.

    India should've won atleast 1 of the 2 matches (Edgbaston and Southampton).

    In first test, England were 87-7.India should've bundled them under 140 and India would've been slight favourites then.Instead rookie left hander Sam curran helped them cross 180 mark.

  55. #55
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    WE are not bottlers. We are simply not skilled enough with the bat to win tough tours against quality opposition.

    Rahane failed miserably. Pujara had an okayish tour. These are our 2nd and 3rd best players.

    Youngsters did not step up like Sam Curran did for England.

    Our so called all rounders got badly out played by Stokes, Woakes and Ali.

    Ali has bowled like a champ while Ashwin bowled like a noob. Ashwin totally wasted the conditions. Did not pitch it in the rough. Someone like Lyon would have run through the English side on this pitch.

    KL Rahul and Dhawan should stick to T20 and Odiís. Chances should be given to youngsters.

    For the dead rubber test, I would rest Dhawan and give a chance to Shaw.

    Overall, it was yet another fruitless tour.
    Last edited by troodon; 2nd September 2018 at 20:34.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    WE are not bottlers. We are simply not skilled enough with the bat to win tough tours against quality opposition.

    Rahane failed miserably. Pujara had an okayish tour. These are our 2nd and 3rd best players.

    Youngsters did not step up like Sam Curran did for England.

    Our so called all rounders got badly out played by Stokes, Woakes and Ali.

    Ali has bowled like a champ while Ashwin bowled like a noob. Ashwin totally wasted the conditions. Did not pitch it in the rough. Someone like Lyon would have run through the English side on this pitch.


    KL Rahul and Dhawan should stick to T20 and Odiís. Chances should be given to youngsters.

    For the dead rubber test, I would rest Dhawan and give a chance to Shaw.

    Overall, it was yet another fruitless tour.
    These are signs of bottling. A bowler like Ashwin runs through side in Asia but struggles here, even if conditions are good enough for him.

    A support bowler like Ali runs through a side. That's instance of bottling.

    The way India thrased England in last test, we just saw how poor England actually are but at the end, fact remains that this team continues to bottle in test cricket after the likes of VVS and Dravid left the scenes.

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    In one word,yes.No real opener for foreign conditions,no real lower middle order.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    These are signs of bottling. A bowler like Ashwin runs through side in Asia but struggles here, even if conditions are good enough for him.

    A support bowler like Ali runs through a side. That's instance of bottling.

    The way India thrased England in last test, we just saw how poor England actually are but at the end, fact remains that this team continues to bottle in test cricket after the likes of VVS and Dravid left the scenes.
    Ashwin has a tendency to do this from time to time.

    I remember the England series in India where KP and Cook destroyed Ashwin on rank turners while our batsmen were getting owned by Monty.

    It’s not bottling. The problem is consistency. Ashwin plays Jekyl and Hyde too often for my liking. Bowls well in one series and then trash in the next.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Won't say more dependant as the story was similar back then. Dravid reached his peak in 2000s only, while Pujara and Rahane are in the league of Azhar and Ganguly IMO. Ganguly atleast added massively with his captaincy. Others here are useless mostly.

    None outside Kohli is in league of even VVS.
    Strongly disagree with you here mate. Pujara and Rahane have their moments but they are not half as skilled, either defensively or offensively, as Azhar and Ganguly. Rahane seems a bit weak mentally too. Don't forget that India during the nineties had to contend with some of the best fast bowlers that have ever played the game too.

    You're also massively understating the role Rahul Dravid played in that team too as soon as he came into that team, he averaged 56 away from home during his first 4 years of test cricket (up to the disastrous tour of Australia in 99-2000): 62 in England, 55 in SA, 107 in NZ, and 72 in the West Indies.

    It's a huge myth that India were dependent solely on Sachin Tendulkar to put up good scores in away test matches during the 90s. This team is comfortably more reliant on Kohli than the 90s team was on Tendulkar.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Strongly disagree with you here mate. Pujara and Rahane have their moments but they are not half as skilled, either defensively or offensively, as Azhar and Ganguly. Rahane seems a bit weak mentally too. Don't forget that India during the nineties had to contend with some of the best fast bowlers that have ever played the game too.

    You're also massively understating the role Rahul Dravid played in that team too as soon as he came into that team, he averaged 56 away from home during his first 4 years of test cricket (up to the disastrous tour of Australia in 99-2000): 62 in England, 55 in SA, 107 in NZ, and 72 in the West Indies.

    It's a huge myth that India were dependent solely on Sachin Tendulkar to put up good scores in away test matches during the 90s. This team is comfortably more reliant on Kohli than the 90s team was on Tendulkar.
    Okay. Outside Asia, I think, batting wise, perhaps you are true and you are saying it batting-wise only.

    The current bowling is obviously much better outside Asia and the teams like Australia, West Indies and South Africa of 90s were much better as well. NZ is much much better today. The current England is not that good but I think they must be on par with England of 90s. Not sure about it, maybe you can help. But one thing is true- the current England team aint any great.

    On Rahane part, I completely agree. He seems to be so mentally weak and soft cricketer, I was about to make a thread on it but left it eventually.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 2nd September 2018 at 22:07.

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    Outside Asia and the Middle East India are nothing, nothing at all! There fans think of them as being superhuman watching them win at home all the time or that IPL stuff. Pujara and the rest of them are average at best no better then any other middle order batsman. Again Kohli was there top scorer, without him England would have won by a greater margin. Just want England to send India home 4-1 ashamed good and proper.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Outside Asia and the Middle East India are nothing, nothing at all! There fans think of them as being superhuman watching them win at home all the time or that IPL stuff. Pujara and the rest of them are average at best no better then any other middle order batsman. Again Kohli was there top scorer, without him England would have won by a greater margin. Just want England to send India home 4-1 ashamed good and proper.
    Isnt it the same for all teams, good at home and aweful away? I mean Eng lost 4-0 in India last time with 1 match being rained out. Have you called England shameful that time? SA got whitewashed last time they toured India.

    Atleast India competed well this series and won a test already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    Isnt it the same for all teams, good at home and aweful away? I mean Eng lost 4-0 in India last time with 1 match being rained out. Have you called England shameful that time? SA got whitewashed last time they toured India.

    Atleast India competed well this series and won a test already.
    Not really! Indian fans think of themselves as being a great side much like the Australian side of the 1990's. England or the RSA have never had this attitude so there defeats don't matter. India like to tell everyone "we're number one in Tests" which is true only that most of those wins are on home soil. Pak drew in England where as India lost so there is nothing "at least" about it.


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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Not really! Indian fans think of themselves as being a great side much like the Australian side of the 1990's. England or the RSA have never had this attitude so there defeats don't matter. India like to tell everyone "we're number one in Tests" which is true only that most of those wins are on home soil. Pak drew in England where as India lost so there is nothing "at least" about it.
    But India are indeed no.1 ranked test team and is no.1 for more than 15 months now. Hence the fans boast about it. Pak fans also boast about being no.1 T20 team. To become no.1, you need not win everywhere. India is almost invincible at home and competitive away. And pls dont brag about Pak's test accolades...you guys got whitewashed by SL, a team which has never won a test match in India.

  65. #65
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    Disappointing from India.
    You can say "well they were in it" but the truth is that they lost! If you're going to win, go out and do the work to win!
    I don't get the feeling this is a strong English side, but against India when the chips are down, they've shown up. If India had shown up in the first and fourth test, then they would be up 3-1, but the key word is "if"-they didn't. That's all there is to it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    But India are indeed no.1 ranked test team and is no.1 for more than 15 months now. Hence the fans boast about it. Pak fans also boast about being no.1 T20 team. To become no.1, you need not win everywhere. India is almost invincible at home and competitive away. And pls dont brag about Pak's test accolades...you guys got whitewashed by SL, a team which has never won a test match in India.
    This team is down 3-1 on the road at England. Please tell me how that's competitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    But India are indeed no.1 ranked test team and is no.1 for more than 15 months now. Hence the fans boast about it. Pak fans also boast about being no.1 T20 team. To become no.1, you need not win everywhere. India is almost invincible at home and competitive away. And pls dont brag about Pak's test accolades...you guys got whitewashed by SL, a team which has never won a test match in India.
    Nothing wrong with boasting however one needs to have an overall perspective. So what if we got whitewashed by Sri Lanka that as a long time back. That would be like saying Pak are a great one day side after we tanked you by 200 runs in last years CT final. The point is that India has lost/losing in England where we drew some months back. No, mostly outside India your boy's get their you know what handed back to them like you are at the moment and the RSA as well. You are only good in home conditions.


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    Sharamful from #1 team

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    Quote Originally Posted by zn426 View Post
    This team is down 3-1 on the road at England. Please tell me how that's competitive.
    If you looked at more than the final scoreline, you'd know how.

    No doubt, India has underperformed. But it is an outright lie to say that the series hasn't been competitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zn426 View Post
    This team is down 3-1 on the road at England. Please tell me how that's competitive.
    Roads? It was bowlers dream test series and far from being roads. Except the 2nd innings in Trent Bridge when India declared, rest all the innings team got all out (mostly below 300 runs). Lords was a minefield...but other 3 venues had constant swing.

    Scoreline may say 3-1, but India lost by 46 runs in 1st test which they should have won. Won the third test and competed all the way in this test. Except the Lords test, India have been competitive throughout. Joe Root was lucky with the toss as well, if India batted first here they would have won it as well like in Trent Bridge

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Nothing wrong with boasting however one needs to have an overall perspective. So what if we got whitewashed by Sri Lanka that as a long time back. That would be like saying Pak are a great one day side after we tanked you by 200 runs in last years CT final. The point is that India has lost/losing in England where we drew some months back. No, mostly outside India your boy's get their you know what handed back to them like you are at the moment and the RSA as well. You are only good in home conditions.
    Pak plays well in Eng no doubt but this drawn series you talking about is little out of contest. It was 2 match series and Pak played well at Lords and got hammered in the next game. Who would know what might have happened if it was a longer series? Comparing a 2match series with 5 tests is not fair.

    SL won 1-0 in Eng in 2014 in 2 match series. India toured next and was 1-0 after 2 tests. But they lost the next 3 games and scoreline was 3-1. Does it mean SL is a better test team than India or Pak because they won a series in Eng most recently??

    You need to have a context. India is no.1 because they dont drop tests at home like Eng, SA, Pak, SL etc.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Okay. Outside Asia, I think, batting wise, perhaps you are true and you are saying it batting-wise only.

    The current bowling is obviously much better outside Asia and the teams like Australia, West Indies and South Africa of 90s were much better as well. NZ is much much better today. The current England is not that good but I think they must be on par with England of 90s. Not sure about it, maybe you can help. But one thing is true- the current England team aint any great.

    On Rahane part, I completely agree. He seems to be so mentally weak and soft cricketer, I was about to make a thread on it but left it eventually.
    Yes, I was only talking about batting. In terms of bowling, this side is on another level altogether. The 90s side were Srinath (who was steady but unremarkable) and not much else away from home. Kumble was perhaps a bit better than Ashwin but not by much. Overall, the present team will always be in with a shout of winning test matches due to the quality of the fast bowlers.

    In terms of the quality of England teams; in my opinion 90s England had more talent than the current crop, but they were badly mismanaged by the board: indiscipline, erratic selection policies, counties retaining equal influence over the players as the international team because they paid the wages which led to bowlers being exhausted after a 60-over workload toiling away on the county circuit the week before a test match. It was a shambles on the most part, but that was a talented side once they got their act together especially at home, as evidenced by their series win over a very good South African side in 1998. I think that if they were managed well and all off-field nuisances ignored, the 90s side would beat the present lot.
    Last edited by Last Monetarist; 2nd September 2018 at 22:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    Pak plays well in Eng no doubt but this drawn series you talking about is little out of contest. It was 2 match series and Pak played well at Lords and got hammered in the next game. Who would know what might have happened if it was a longer series? Comparing a 2match series with 5 tests is not fair.

    SL won 1-0 in Eng in 2014 in 2 match series. India toured next and was 1-0 after 2 tests. But they lost the next 3 games and scoreline was 3-1. Does it mean SL is a better test team than India or Pak because they won a series in Eng most recently??

    You need to have a context. India is no.1 because they dont drop tests at home like Eng, SA, Pak, SL etc.
    Not a good excuse! We could have easily won the series against England as well despite the heavy loss in the second Test. So if Sri Lanka can beat England then there is nothing for you to dance about when they defeat Pak as well, right? What it means is that India lost to the RSA which is a FACT and you lost to England as well, never mind the if's and but's of it being a five test series when in hindsight we can say anything. What you need to understand is that India by and large are paper tigers who only bite in their own tailor made conditions. Away they'll mostly struggle to defeat even Zimbabwe.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    If you looked at more than the final scoreline, you'd know how.

    No doubt, India has underperformed. But it is an outright lie to say that the series hasn't been competitive.
    I say they aren't competitive because they aren't doing what it takes to win. Look, I've followed the series. England put in hard yards and built a strong lead in a high scoring contest and defended it comfortably. If it had been within 20-30 runs then you can argue it was competitive. But England gritted it out. India didn't.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Not a good excuse! We could have easily won the series against England as well despite the heavy loss in the second Test. So if Sri Lanka can beat England then there is nothing for you to dance about when they defeat Pak as well, right? What it means is that India lost to the RSA which is a FACT and you lost to England as well, never mind the if's and but's of it being a five test series when in hindsight we can say anything. What you need to understand is that India by and large are paper tigers who only bite in their own tailor made conditions. Away they'll mostly struggle to defeat even Zimbabwe.
    Struggle to defeat even Zimbabwe??

    WI series was 2-0 in 2015, and if not for washout, it could have been 3-0.

  76. #76
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    India have the ability to win a series away anywhere but they have failed to take the hard yards and capitalize on momentum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Not a good excuse! We could have easily won the series against England as well despite the heavy loss in the second Test. So if Sri Lanka can beat England then there is nothing for you to dance about when they defeat Pak as well, right? What it means is that India lost to the RSA which is a FACT and you lost to England as well, never mind the if's and but's of it being a five test series when in hindsight we can say anything. What you need to understand is that India by and large are paper tigers who only bite in their own tailor made conditions. Away they'll mostly struggle to defeat even Zimbabwe.
    Pak lost the 2nd test by an innings i.e not able to match Eng 1st innings score of 363 by batting twice. 174 and 134 is their score in each innings. If you think they would have won the 5 match test series, well I dont know. We cant debate on would have...could have. But Pak never won a test series in Eng since 1998 so I would not be optimistic.

    SL won the test match in 2014 with all their Sangas and Mahelas. But it was 1 match win and win the series. Thats how flukey 2 test series are. As I said before, if India series in 2014 was also 2 test series, they also would have won 1-0.

    Not sure if Indian team would struggle in Zimb but I think I know a certain team dropped a test in Zimbabwe...lol.
    Last edited by Canford Cliffs; 2nd September 2018 at 23:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    Roads? It was bowlers dream test series and far from being roads. Except the 2nd innings in Trent Bridge when India declared, rest all the innings team got all out (mostly below 300 runs). Lords was a minefield...but other 3 venues had constant swing.

    Scoreline may say 3-1, but India lost by 46 runs in 1st test which they should have won. Won the third test and competed all the way in this test. Except the Lords test, India have been competitive throughout. Joe Root was lucky with the toss as well, if India batted first here they would have won it as well like in Trent Bridge
    :Facepalm. Sorry, I think the message got a little lost in translation. When I say "on the road", here in the United States it means you are playing away from home.
    Example: India went on the road to London to face England in a Test Match. I'm not saying the pitch was a road.
    I disagree that this was a bowler's dream pitch series, particularly in this last match. England has scored 287, 180, 396, 161, 317, 246, and 271. Their average score is 265. Basically, they've scored when they've applied themselves. India in the same vein has scored 274, 162, 107, 130, 329, 352, 273, and 184. They've averaged 226. This is more about application than it is about the pitches.

  79. #79
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    It shouldn't be forgotten that England won 4 tosses out of 4 in a series where conditions and chasing targets mattered heavily. That played a huge part in their success.


    John 3:16

  80. #80
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    India have struggled chasing target in the 4th innings over the last few years. I still remember the collapse at the hand of Herath at Galle after dominating the Test match for the most part. This needs to be addressed if India have to win abroad. Even though 190, 245 look decent target on those pitches, India still could have chased down those targets. The same team which chases middling targets with ease in ODI's, gets under tremendous pressure in Tests and thereby losing too many wickets.


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