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  1. #1
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    Why did the secular, socialist PPP of Z. Bhutto declare Ahmadis as 'kaafirs'?

    I have always wondered why a party which was very popular at the time, had a big mandate, leading a country out of turmoil and led by a very secular person (prolly most secular leader of Pakistan post-Jinnah) give in to mullahs at the time and constitutionally declare Ahmad's as non-Muslim?

    This is the baffling part. It wasnt Zia or some religiously inclined government. It was Bhutto.

    Bhutto ended up passing many strict laws if you look at it. He made Friday the national holiday, banned alcohol and casinos among other things.

    And despite all that the religious parties of the time still formed the PNA against him in the 1977 elections and then allied with Zia which led to Bhutto's eventual demise.


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  2. #2
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    If you are actually interested in learning and not merely point scoring and dragging PPP/Bhutto - check out the following interview by a scholar of religious extremism.

    http://tns.thenews.com.pk/no-scope-c...-from-ahmadis/

    The 2nd amendment was focusd on the definition of being a muslim. The state led persecution of Ahmadis started during Zia's era with his ordinance XX. Previously Ahmadis were not barred from praying in mosques, "acting like muslims" or professing + propagating their faith.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSchultz View Post
    If you are actually interested in learning and not merely point scoring and dragging PPP/Bhutto - check out the following interview by a scholar of religious extremism.

    http://tns.thenews.com.pk/no-scope-c...-from-ahmadis/

    The 2nd amendment was focusd on the definition of being a muslim. The state led persecution of Ahmadis started during Zia's era with his ordinance XX. Previously Ahmadis were not barred from praying in mosques, "acting like muslims" or professing + propagating their faith.
    I am genuinely curious so I will read and share my thoughts if anything stands out

    The thing is ofcourse Zia made it worse and forget Ahmadis he made Pakistan as a nation go towards extremism and strict Islam. But most people recognise that. Zia gained legitimacy through that charade. But what was Bhutto's need is what I want to know. Here we have a powerful leader approved by the masses and who has the army on its knees post-Dhaka. So what made him constitutionally declare Ahmadis as kaafirs.

    Zia may have made it worse but Bhutto set the ball rolling


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  4. #4
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    The article shared says that Saudis were possibly behind this movement

    But then again. I am interested to know why Bhutto personally took such an extreme step. Pressure can come via different quarters always.


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  5. #5
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    Bhutto basically submitted to pressure from the religious establishment. Three points are relevant here: the specific context in 1974 and more broadly the 1970s, understanding the reasons for vehemence of the campaign run by the ulama, and finally seeing the bigger picture on the decline of Islamic modernism.

    Although Bhutto had achieved a remarkable breakthrough in the elections of 1970 in West Pakistan, by 1974 the Bhutto government was coming under strain and had lost some of its political credit. Dissension within the government, was compounded by economic difficulties. In August 1973 there were massive floods. In October 1973 there was a four fold increase in petroleum prices. University teachers went on a countrywide strike in 1974 and there were shortage of flour and cooking oil.

    There is also the wider context especially in the aftermath of the loss of the eastern wing, which prompted Pakistan seeking closer ties with the Islamic world. First, there was an economic dimension. Prior to Bangladesh achieving independence, 50 per cent of West Pakistan's exports were to East Pakistan. Now Pakistan had to seek new markets and restructure its trade and one market that Pakistan sought to develop was West Asia. By 1981, 30 per cent of Pakistan's exports and imports were with the Organisation of Islamic Conference states. There was also a security dimension. Closer diplomatic ties with the Arab world facilitated inflow of Libyan and Saudi money which was crucial for the nuclear programme. But such support did not come unalloyed. As Ali Usman Qasmi indicates in the interview in post 2, Saudi Arabia began to put pressure on Pakistan to declare Ahmadis a non-Muslim minority. There was the issue of self-esteem. The loss of the eastern wing damaged national pride. Turning to the Arab world represented at least in part, and effort to restore national self-esteem. The world spotlight turned to Pakistan when the Islamic summit in 1974 was held in Lahore. A euphoric crowd in Lahore turned up to hear Colonel Qaddafi claim that Pakistan was the 'citadel of Islam in Asia'. Finally, the loss of the eastern wing meant that Pakistan lost most of its religious minorities. Whilst the secession of Bangladesh damaged the idea of the two nation theory, ironically by making Pakistan less plural, it bolstered Islamic parties and made it much easier to orientate Pakistan towards West Asia.

    On second point - the strength of the campaign of the religious establishment that ultimately pressured the Bhutto government into caving in - we must of course acknowledge that religious groups had long called for the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims, and this extends back to the colonial period, when the Majlis-i Ahrar-i Islam were the forefront of the anti-Ahmadi movement. Anti-Ahmadi sentiments were therefore deeply rooted and for many a crucial theological issue. But beyond this, we must also consider the wholly original point made by Muhammad Qasim Zaman that the religious establishment’s “misgivings” about Islamic modernism and the modernists, who also formed the government elite. As Zaman states, this is partly because the Ahmadis themselves have been associated “with modernist positions, notably a derisive attitude toward the `ulama and the Islamists, an insistence on adapting Islam to changing conditions, and doubts about the state’s implementation of Islamic law.” More than this, as Zaman argues, for the intensity of the religious groups in pressuring the government to act, was because of what they perceived to be the actual lack of commitment of modernists to moor the state to Islam. For the religious establishment the presence of Ahmadis in positions of authority within the state and failure to excommunicate the Ahmadis from the Islamic fold demonstrated that the modernists were not seriously committed to Islam.

    This leads thirdly, to the final point, around the decline of Islamic modernism. Within Pakistan it seems clear that Islamic modernism has become increasingly beleaguered- this is in fact the core part of Zaman’s argument in his book. Modernists had been committed to bringing to life the ‘spirit’ of Islam, to emphasising ethical values, which in their eyes had been deadened by the religious establishment who had encased Islam in outer ritualism. The modernists had emphasised the ‘ecumenical’ nature of Islam that transcended sectarian divisions. Such a perspective was already coming under stress in the Ayub years when modernism had reached its zenith. It was in 1968, that Fazlur Rahman was forced to resign as director of the Institute of Islamic Research. The lack of intellectual firepower to counteract the arguments of the religious establishment had left modernists vulnerable to pressure from the religious right. And this too is part of the story of the events that unfolded in 1974.

  6. #6
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    Good Post

    Quote Originally Posted by KB View Post
    Bhutto basically submitted to pressure from the religious establishment. .
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I have always wondered why a party which was very popular at the time, had a big mandate, leading a country out of turmoil and led by a very secular person (prolly most secular leader of Pakistan post-Jinnah) give in to mullahs at the time and constitutionally declare Ahmad's as non-Muslim?

    This is the baffling part. It wasnt Zia or some religiously inclined government. It was Bhutto.

    Bhutto ended up passing many strict laws if you look at it. He made Friday the national holiday, banned alcohol and casinos among other things.

    And despite all that the religious parties of the time still formed the PNA against him in the 1977 elections and then allied with Zia which led to Bhutto's eventual demise.
    because Ahmadis are non-muslims genius

    Read basics of Islam and you will understand it too
    Last edited by srh; 8th September 2018 at 13:31.

  8. #8
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    Ahmadis are Non Muslims by the very definition of Islam, whether they are declared so by Government or not that's a different matter, But I agree they should accept that they are non Muslim and should be given equal rights of minority like other minorities, and this is fact no twisting amd turning can deny it. Period

  9. #9
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    Bhutto's desperation to score Brownie points to hold on to power. The biggest damage caused to the Pakistani nation

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeshan547 View Post
    Ahmadis are Non Muslims by the very definition of Islam, whether they are declared so by Government or not that's a different matter, But I agree they should accept that they are non Muslim and should be given equal rights of minority like other minorities, and this is fact no twisting amd turning can deny it. Period
    That seems to suggest that it is acceptable for minorities to have different rights than Muslims in Pakistan - Can you clarify?

  11. #11
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    Under pressure from the right wing.

    This is the best article I've read on this:

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1057427

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Bhutto's desperation to score Brownie points to hold on to power. The biggest damage caused to the Pakistani nation
    Declaring Qadyani's Non muslim is biggest damage? Are you for real. Bhutto or no Bhutto it was bound to be done in a Theological Country like Pakistan, which is very sensitive about religious matters.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbowl View Post
    That seems to suggest that it is acceptable for minorities to have different rights than Muslims in Pakistan - Can you clarify?
    I meant to say Ahmadis should enjoy as much rights as other minorities in Pakistan Constitution. But They can't have it both ways and have to Accept their Non Muslim Identity.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeshan547 View Post
    Declaring Qadyani's Non muslim is biggest damage? Are you for real. Bhutto or no Bhutto it was bound to be done in a Theological Country like Pakistan, which is very sensitive about religious matters.
    Pakistan was very secular from 1947 to 1974 before Bhutto and then Zia introduced religion in Pakistani society on a grand scale just to score brownie points and maintain their grip on power

  15. #15
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    You can beat around the bushes as much as you can but it comes down to one thing Ahmadis are not Muslims. To be a Muslim you need to believe there is one God and Prophet Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and there will be no messenger after him. Now if you deny one or both of these two things, which Ahamdis do, you’re not Muslim. I don’t know why they don’t start their own religion. You can't say I don’t beleive in Moses but I am a jew. Until they declare themselves nonmuslims they are not going to get their due rights.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 9th September 2018 at 12:29.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Pakistan was very secular from 1947 to 1974 before Bhutto and then Zia introduced religion in Pakistani society on a grand scale just to score brownie points and maintain their grip on power
    Rather than saying Pakistan was secular I think it would be more apt to say that government policies, senior civil service, military high command was very secular, since it was trained in the British traditions and greatly admired it.

    I doubt the average molvi was any less toxic.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSchultz View Post
    Rather than saying Pakistan was secular I think it would be more apt to say that government policies, senior civil service, military high command was very secular, since it was trained in the British traditions and greatly admired it.

    I doubt the average molvi was any less toxic.
    That is a very important point that most people tend to overlook. The mindset of the common man has not change, and the lifestyle of the elite in the 50s and 60s does not reflect the mentality of the country, but the crucial difference is that the rise of extremist leaders like gave the bigots voice and power.

  18. #18
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    Ahmedis are clearly not Muslim.

    Second, ZAB also made Friday a holiday and forbade alcohol. These were his last decisions in a desperate attempt to win support of the public during his last days.

    Pakistan WAS more secular back in the day but not the extent people think. secularism isn’t some universal movement. We were secular towards drinking of alcohol but women were way more conservative than they are now

  19. #19
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    Dude would do anything to stay in power. He was just another tribal chief.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    because Ahmadis are non-muslims genius

    Read basics of Islam and you will understand it too
    Frist of all why state should be involved in defining faith of people? - Don't tell me that Pakistan was made to be a Sharia Lab, it was created but Jinnah not Moodadi and first foreign minister of Pakistan was Qadani and he declare himself as Muslim and Jinnah knew about it... There are many Shais and Sunnis call each other Kafir too, why not clarify those details as well in the constitution...Definition of Islam is not as straight forward

    Secondly, if being last Prophet is fundamental part of Islam, why God/Allah did not mention that in first Kalama, Second Kalama and in every Azan, muslims recite them everyday without dare to modify that content, this clerical error is made by God himself. Why don't you first change religious text before changing constitutions??


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I have always wondered why a party which was very popular at the time, had a big mandate, leading a country out of turmoil and led by a very secular person (prolly most secular leader of Pakistan post-Jinnah) give in to mullahs at the time and constitutionally declare Ahmad's as non-Muslim?

    This is the baffling part. It wasnt Zia or some religiously inclined government. It was Bhutto.

    Bhutto ended up passing many strict laws if you look at it. He made Friday the national holiday, banned alcohol and casinos among other things.

    And despite all that the religious parties of the time still formed the PNA against him in the 1977 elections and then allied with Zia which led to Bhutto's eventual demise.
    Its not upto the Gov. It is decided by Ijmaah of all elders of Islam in that time. And at that time almost 192 Ullamas in Sub Continent declared a combined fatwa which states that Ahmedis are non Muslims.

    So frankly speaking, though i hate PPP, but they were not at fault at that time.


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasir View Post
    Frist of all why state should be involved in defining faith of people? - Don't tell me that Pakistan was made to be a Sharia Lab, it was created but Jinnah not Moodadi and first foreign minister of Pakistan was Qadani and he declare himself as Muslim and Jinnah knew about it... There are many Shais and Sunnis call each other Kafir too, why not clarify those details as well in the constitution...Definition of Islam is not as straight forward

    Secondly, if being last Prophet is fundamental part of Islam, why God/Allah did not mention that in first Kalama, Second Kalama and in every Azan, muslims recite them everyday without dare to modify that content, this clerical error is made by God himself. Why don't you first change religious text before changing constitutions??
    I think Pakistan has different rules for muslims and non-muslims and thats why State had to make it clear who is muslim and who is not muslim. Among the regular muslim folks, Qadianis have been known as non-muslims right from the start when their leader announced that he is a prophet (nauzbilllah). But the State had still not recognized them as non-muslims hence there was confusion about the laws. Eventually this matter was decided unanimously by the parliament.

    Prophet Mohammad (SAW) as last Prophet is fundamental to Islam. It has been mentioned in the Holy Book Quran and the Hadiths.


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