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  1. #1
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    Pakistan rethinks its role in Xiís Belt and Road plan


    Pakistan plans to review or renegotiate agreements reached under China’s Belt and Road Initiative, joining a growing list of countries questioning the terms of their involvement in Beijing’s showpiece infrastructure investment plan.

    Pakistani ministers and advisers say the country’s new government will review BRI investments and renegotiate a trade agreement signed more than a decade ago that it says unfairly benefits Chinese companies.

    “The previous government did a bad job negotiating with China on CPEC — they didn’t do their homework correctly and didn’t negotiate correctly so they gave away a lot,” Abdul Razak Dawood, the Pakistani member of cabinet responsible for commerce, textiles, industry and investment, told the Financial Times.

    “Chinese companies received tax breaks, many breaks and have an undue advantage in Pakistan; this is one of the things we’re looking at because it’s not fair that Pakistan companies should be disadvantaged,” he said.
    https://www.ft.com/content/d4a3e7f8-...a-68cf89602132


    I doubt Pakistan have leverage here though,especially at current economic situation and close dependency on China.
    Last edited by noonebetterthanPappu; 10th September 2018 at 15:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noonebetterthanPappu View Post
    https://www.ft.com/content/d4a3e7f8-...a-68cf89602132


    I doubt Pakistan have leverage here though,especially at current economic situation and close dependency on China.
    The Chinese are ready to help and facilitate the new government. There is a reason the Chinese foreign minister was here yesterday. CPEC will not be stopping. It is a strategic necessity. Some projects will be renegotiated as they have not started yet and that is perfectly fine.

  3. #3
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    I have been saying this since day 1 - you can only be a nutter to support CPEC, its Chinas way of buying Pakistan and creating a battlefield against USA.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    I have been saying this since day 1 - you can only be a nutter to support CPEC, its Chinas way of buying Pakistan and creating a battlefield against USA.
    Pakistan can also have benefits but need to have a proper plan of how much control can be conceded to China.Obviously Chin's intention will be for ts own benefits otherwise there is no use to spend so many billions.

  5. #5
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    Will be able to stop East India Company of China? Lets see.

  6. #6
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    The terms of CPEC were questionable to the naked eye from day one. This may turn out to be one of the biggest mistakes in Pakistan's history.

  7. #7
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    Fake news. Mods should take this down cause the Pakistani and Chinese govts refuted this story.


    "Peace is only made with the powerful"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonebetterthanPappu View Post
    Pakistan can also have benefits but need to have a proper plan of how much control can be conceded to China.Obviously Chin's intention will be for ts own benefits otherwise there is no use to spend so many billions.
    no it cant, its probably the biggest project in PAkistans history and its not ours at all, it belongs to someone else.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

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    It must benefit us as much as China. I am not sure that is the case as things stand.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    It must benefit us as much as China. I am not sure that is the case as things stand.
    Even if it benefits Pakistan 1/4th of how much it benefits China, it's still a good deal given Pakistan's current economic health.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    no it cant, its probably the biggest project in PAkistans history and its not ours at all, it belongs to someone else.
    The roads, railways, bridges, ports and other infrastructure won't just melt away, or deconstructed and taken back to China. Once built, they will exist. Whilst the tax breaks, and other aspects of the trade deal can always be renegotiated, or at the very least, reach their end-of-term limits. Besides, once CPEC becomes an important component of China's trade routes, it also becomes difficult for China to wean itself off it when/if the existing time delimited tax breaks and contracts come to an end and it's time to renegotiate.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackShadow View Post
    Even if it benefits Pakistan 1/4th of how much it benefits China, it's still a good deal given Pakistan's current economic health.
    We need to know what exactly Nawaz Sharif agreed to. I am hearing stories of him having agreed to 10 million Chinese people living and working in China. I am concerned we may become a Chinese colony with thousands of China towns being built in Pak.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Fake news. Mods should take this down cause the Pakistani and Chinese govts refuted this story.
    Obviously Chinese Govt will refute any such news and once they make their objection known Pakistani Govt will not have any other option.

    Soon after the report was published, Dawood said parts of his interview had been taken out of context. He said he would present a clarification in the evening. “I run the risk of being misquoted once again if I present one right now,” he said.
    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1799826...s-report-cpec/
    Last edited by noonebetterthanPappu; 11th September 2018 at 00:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    We need to know what exactly Nawaz Sharif agreed to. I am hearing stories of him having agreed to 10 million Chinese people living and working in China. I am concerned we may become a Chinese colony with thousands of China towns being built in Pak.
    I meant living and working in Pak.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I meant living and working in Pak.
    I have read about 5,00,000 Chinese working a township dedicated to them..10 million is too much.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonebetterthanPappu View Post
    I have read about 5,00,000 Chinese working a township dedicated to them..10 million is too much.
    Even that is far to much. In no time will they grow to ten times that number.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  17. #17
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    Malaysia recently decided to renogiate or cancel many of its chinese projects which all had the same pie in the sky type benefits. Infrastructure is good if there is a real need otherwise it is just a waste of resources that will decay over time. Look up China ghost cities.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonebetterthanPappu View Post
    I have read about 5,00,000 Chinese working a township dedicated to them..10 million is too much.
    Now where did you read that?

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    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    The US can win this if they outbid china from Pakistan... 30-40 billion is peanuts for them.

    But they won't because they want to stifle china and not help pakistan in a meaningful way ....

    The US time is over. Their ** just doesn't work anymore.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Now where did you read that?
    Economic times.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/65481132.cms

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    I started the post with silly because thats what defines your thinking and posts but thanks for confirming you posted the same word just to get back at me without meaning it - because i can see there is no logic in your thinking or posts either and you just throw around the same absurd thinking that comes from your friends in tableegi jamaat who call China the savior without realising what the Chiense are doing to the muslims in China, nope this is not delusionals but but when you take your head out of the same sands your mullahs have them in you will see the reality of what China actully is.

    In terms of who USA sides with then that is who serves there interests, you seem to have just come into the world and are too young but USAs alliances have always changed over the years and are with India now because of Pakistans over the top friendship with China. When you have your head out the ground come back and we can have a meaningfull discussion.
    Is it only Pakistan which has over the top friendship with China? The Chinese seems to be making over the top friendships in every continent, from Asia to Africa, are all these countries somehow getting duped with the same ruse? I am surprised that USA would give up Pakistan or any other country as a client regardless of new markets in India, why not service Pakistan as well instead of giving up to China to exploit?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Is it only Pakistan which has over the top friendship with China? The Chinese seems to be making over the top friendships in every continent, from Asia to Africa, are all these countries somehow getting duped with the same ruse? I am surprised that USA would give up Pakistan or any other country as a client regardless of new markets in India, why not service Pakistan as well instead of giving up to China to exploit?
    How would you describe those countries as over the top friendships with china, they are just taking investments from there economic hitmens, but in Pakistan its another thing where China has almost the status of god and it seems every person in the country has already made up there mind that the whole west is conspiring against the muslims and wants Pakistans nuclear weapons and China is going to be the messiah that saves them, Heck you even have mullahs on YT connecting China with hadiths that they will save the muslims.

    I wouldnt be suprised by USA there gameplan was just stupid after Mush left, they supported a lunatic like Zadari and though they will get access to the country very easily and wipe it out internally but they ofcourse underestimated the army.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    How would you describe those countries as over the top friendships with china, they are just taking investments from there economic hitmens, but in Pakistan its another thing where China has almost the status of god and it seems every person in the country has already made up there mind that the whole west is conspiring against the muslims and wants Pakistans nuclear weapons and China is going to be the messiah that saves them, Heck you even have mullahs on YT connecting China with hadiths that they will save the muslims.

    I wouldnt be suprised by USA there gameplan was just stupid after Mush left, they supported a lunatic like Zadari and though they will get access to the country very easily and wipe it out internally but they ofcourse underestimated the army.
    China are just moving in where US has moved out, you can call the Americans stupid but it's there money and you can't force them to invest it abroad. Clearly the developing countries need investment from somewhere to advance, and that is where China has taken advantage.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    China are just moving in where US has moved out, you can call the Americans stupid but it's there money and you can't force them to invest it abroad. Clearly the developing countries need investment from somewhere to advance, and that is where China has taken advantage.
    Can you prove thats the USA has moved out?

    Rather they have a very new competitor in gaining terroitory by enslaving nations through debt by using economic hitmen.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    Can you prove thats the USA has moved out?

    Rather they have a very new competitor in gaining terroitory by enslaving nations through debt by using economic hitmen.
    Well that hypothesis should be easy enough to prove, America isn't the sort of country which will bow down quietly to unfair competition, I'm sure you can provide some insights or articles as to how they have been sidelined by the Chinese economic hitmen, whatever that means.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Chinaís ĎBelt and Roadí Plan in Pakistan Takes a Military Turn

    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ó When President Trump started the new year by suspending billions of dollars of security aid to Pakistan, one theory was that it would scare the Pakistani military into cooperating better with its American allies.

    The reality was that Pakistan already had a replacement sponsor lined up.

    Just two weeks later, the Pakistani Air Force and Chinese officials were putting the final touches on a secret proposal to expand Pakistanís building of Chinese military jets, weaponry and other hardware. The confidential plan, reviewed by The New York Times, would also deepen the cooperation between China and Pakistan in space, a frontier the Pentagon recently said Beijing was trying to militarize after decades of playing catch-up.

    All those military projects were designated as part of Chinaís Belt and Road Initiative, a $1 trillion chain of infrastructure development programs stretching across some 70 countries, built and financed by Beijing.

    Chinese officials have repeatedly said the Belt and Road is purely an economic project with peaceful intent. But with its plan for Pakistan, China is for the first time explicitly tying a Belt and Road proposal to its military ambitions ó and confirming the concerns of a host of nations who suspect the infrastructure initiative is really about helping China project armed might.

    As Chinaís strategically located and nuclear-armed neighbor, Pakistan has been the leading example of how the Chinese projects are being used to give Beijing both favor and leverage among its clients.

    Since the beginning of the Belt and Road Initiative in 2013, Pakistan has been the programís flagship site, with some $62 billion in projects planned in the so-called China-Pakistan Economic Corridor. In the process, China has lent more and more money to Pakistan at a time of economic desperation there, binding the two countries ever closer.

    For the most part, Pakistan has eagerly turned more toward China as the chill with the United States has deepened. Some Pakistani officials are growing concerned about losing sovereignty to their deep-pocketed Asian ally, but the host of ways the two countries are now bound together may leave Pakistan with little choice but to go along.

    Even before the revelation of the new Chinese-Pakistani military cooperation, some of Chinaís biggest projects in Pakistan had clear strategic implications.

    A Chinese-built seaport and special economic zone in the Pakistani town of Gwadar is rooted in trade, giving China a quicker route to get goods to the Arabian Sea. But it also gives Beijing a strategic card to play against India and the United States if tensions worsen to the point of naval blockades as the two powers increasingly confront each other at sea.

    A less scrutinized component of Belt and Road is the central role Pakistan plays in Chinaís Beidou satellite navigation system. Pakistan is the only other country that has been granted access to the systemís military service, allowing more precise guidance for missiles, ships and aircraft.

    The cooperation is meant to be a blueprint for Beidouís expansion to other Belt and Road nations, however, ostensibly ending its clientsí reliance on the American military-run GPS network that Chinese officials fear is monitored and manipulated by the United States.

    In Pakistan, China has found an amenable ally with much to recommend it: shared borders and a long history of cooperation; a hedge in South Asia against India; a large market for arms sales and trade with potential for growth; a wealth of natural resources.

    Now, China is also finding a better showcase for its security and surveillance technology in a place once defined by its close military relationship with the United States.

    ďThe focus of Belt and Road is on roads and bridges and ports, because those are the concrete construction projects that people can easily see. But itís the technologies of the future and technologies of future security systems that could be the biggest security threat in the Belt and Road project,Ē said Priscilla Moriuchi, the director of strategic threat development at Recorded Future, a cyberthreat intelligence monitoring company based in Massachusetts.

    An Asset on the Sea


    The tightening China-Pakistan security alliance has gained momentum on a long road to the Arabian Sea.

    In 2015, under Belt and Road, China took a nascent port in the Pakistani coastal town of Gwadar and supercharged the project with an estimated $800 million development plan that included a large special economic zone for Chinese companies.

    Linking the port to western China would be a new 2,000-mile network of highways and rails through the most forbidding stretch of Pakistan: Baluchistan Province, a resource-rich region plagued by militancy.

    The public vision for the project was that it would allow Chinese goods to bypass much longer and more expensive shipping routes through the Indian Ocean and avoid the territorial waters of several American allies in Asia.

    From the beginning, though, key details of the project were kept from the public and lawmakers, officials say, including the terms of its loan structure and the length of the lease, more than 40 years, that a Chinese state-owned company secured to operate the port.

    If there was concern within Pakistan about the hidden costs of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, also known as CPEC, there was growing suspicion abroad about a hidden military aspect, as well.

    In recent years, Chinese state-owned companies have built or begun constructing seaports at strategic spots around the Indian Ocean, including places in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Malaysia.

    Chinese officials insisted that the ports would not be militarized. But analysts began wondering whether Chinaís endgame was to muscle its way onto coastal territories that could become prime military assets ó much as it did when it started militarizing contested islands in the South China Sea.

    Then, Sri Lanka, unable to repay its ballooning debt with China, handed over the Chinese-built port at Hambantota in a 99-year lease agreement last year. Indian and American officials expressed a growing conviction that taking control of the port had been Chinaís intent all along.

    In October, Vice President Mike Pence said Sri Lanka was a warning for all Belt and Road countries that China was luring them into debt traps.

    ďChina uses so-called debt diplomacy to expand its influence,Ē Mr. Pence said in a speech.

    ďJust ask Sri Lanka, which took on massive debt to let Chinese state companies build a port of questionable commercial value,Ē Mr. Pence added. ďIt may soon become a forward military base for Chinaís growing blue-water navy.Ē

    Military analysts predict that China could use Gwadar to expand the naval footprint of its attack submarines, after agreeing in 2015 to sell eight submarines to Pakistan in a deal worth up to $6 billion. China could use the equipment it sells to the South Asian country to refuel its own submarines, extending its navyís global reach.

    Deepening Debt

    When China inaugurated Belt and Road, in 2013, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharifís new government in Pakistan saw it as the answer for a host of problems.

    Foreign investment in Pakistan was scant, driven away by terrorist attacks and the countryís enduring reputation for corruption. And Pakistan desperately needed a modern power grid to help ease persistent electricity shortages.

    Pakistani officials say that Beijing first proposed the highway from Chinaís western Xinjiang region through Pakistan that connected to Gwadar port. But Pakistani officials insisted that new coal power plants be built. China agreed.

    With CPEC under fresh scrutiny, Chinese and Pakistani officials in recent weeks have contended that Pakistan has a debt problem, but not a Chinese debt problem. In October, the countryís central bank revealed an overall debt and liability burden of about $215 billion, with $95 billion externally held. With nearly half of CPECís projects completed ó in terms of worth ó Pakistan currently owes China $23 billion.

    But the country stands to owe $62 billion to China ó before interest balloons the figure to some $90 billion ó under the plan for Belt and Roadís expansion there in coming years.

    Pakistanís central bank governor, Ashraf Wathra, said publicly in 2015 that he had no clarity on Chinese investments in Pakistan and was concerned about rising debt levels. It still took him months after that to secure a briefing from cabinet officials.

    ďMy main question was, ĎDo we have any feasibility studies of these projects and a cost-benefit analysis?í Their answers were all evasive,Ē recalled Mr. Wathra, who has since retired.

    Ahsan Iqbal, a cabinet minister and the main architect for CPEC in the previous government, said the project was well thought-through and dismissed Mr. Wathraís account.

    ďNo one wanted to invest here ó the Chinese took a chance,Ē Mr. Iqbal said in an interview.

    But the bill is coming due. Pakistanís first debt repayments to China are set for next year, starting at about $300 million and gradually increasing to reach about $3.2 billion by 2026, according to officials. And Pakistan is already having trouble paying what it owes to Chinese companies.

    Fighter Jets and Satellites

    According to the undisclosed proposal drawn up by the Pakistani Air Force and Chinese officials at the start of the year, a special economic zone under CPEC would be created in Pakistan to produce a new generation of fighter jets. For the first time, navigation systems, radar systems and onboard weapons would be built jointly by the countries at factories in Pakistan.

    The proposal, confirmed by officials at the Ministry of Planning and Development, would expand China and Pakistanís current cooperation on the JF-17 fighter jet, which is assembled at Pakistanís military-run Kamra Aeronautical Complex in Punjab Province. The Chinese-designed jets have given Pakistan an alternative to the American-built F-16 fighters that have become more difficult to obtain as Islamabadís relationship with Washington frays.

    The plans are in the final stages of approval, but the current government is expected to rubber stamp the project, officials in Islamabad say.

    For China, Pakistan could become a showcase for other countries seeking to shift their militaries away from American equipment and toward Chinese arms, Western diplomats said. And because China is not averse to selling such advanced weaponry as ballistic missiles ó which the United States will not sell to allies like Saudi Arabia ó the deal with Pakistan could be a steppingstone to a bigger market for Chinese weapons in the Muslim world.

    For years, some of the most important military coordination between China and Pakistan has been going on in space.

    Just months before Beijing unveiled the Belt and Road project in 2013, it signed an agreement with Pakistan to build a network of satellite stations inside the South Asian country to establish the Beidou Navigation System as an alternative to the American GPS network.

    Beidou quickly became a core component of Belt and Road, with the Chinese government calling the satellite network part of an ďinformation Silk RoadĒ in a 2015 white paper.

    Like GPS, Beidou has a civilian function and a military one. If its trial with Pakistan goes well, Beijing could offer Beidouís military service to other countries, creating a bloc of nations whose military actions would be more difficult for the United States to monitor.

    By 2020, all 35 satellites for the system will be launched in collaboration with other Belt and Road countries, completing Beidou.

    ďBeidou, whatever any users use it for ó whether itís a civilian navigating their way to the grocery store or a government using it to coordinate their rocket launches ó those are all things that China can track,Ē said Ms. Moriuchi, of the research group Recorded Future. ďAnd thatís what is most striking: that this authoritarian government will be a major technology provider for numerous countries in Asia, Africa and Europe.Ē

    For the Pentagon, Chinaís satellite launches are ominous.

    Chinaís military ďcontinues to strengthen its military space capabilities despite its public stance against the militarization of space,Ē including developing Beidou and new weaponry, according to a Pentagon report issued to Congress in May.

    In October, Pakistanís information minister, Fawad Chaudhry, said that by 2022, Pakistan would send its own astronaut into space with Chinaís help.

    ďWe are close to China, and we are getting more close,Ē he said in a later interview. ďItís time for the West to wake up and recognize our importance.Ē

    Wooing Pakistanís Military

    Though the relationship between China and Pakistan has clearly grown closer, it has not been without tension. CPEC could still be vulnerable to political shifts in Pakistan ó as happened this year in Malaysia, which shelved three big projects by Chinese companies.

    Campaigning during the parliamentary elections that made him prime minister in July, Imran Khan vowed to review CPEC projects and renegotiate them if he won. In September, after meeting in Saudi Arabia with the crown prince, Mr. Khan said that the kingdom had agreed to invest in CPEC too.

    Pakistanís new commerce minister then proposed pausing all CPEC projects while the government assessed them.

    The moves by Pakistanís new government angered Beijing, which was concerned they could set back Belt and Road globally.

    But in Pakistan, China has a steady ally it can approach to smooth things over: the countryís powerful military establishment, which stands to fill its coffers with millions of dollars through CPEC as the militaryís construction companies win infrastructure bids.

    Shortly after the commerce ministerís comments, the Pakistani Armyís top commander, Gen. Qamar Javed Bajwa, hurried to Beijing for an unannounced visit with President Xi Jinping. The meeting came six weeks before Mr. Khan made his first official visit with the Chinese president, a trip he had listed as a priority.

    Statements from the military said General Bajwa and Mr. Xi spoke extensively about Belt and Road projects.

    General Bajwa ďsaid that the Belt and Road initiative with CPEC as its flagship is destined to succeed despite all odds, and Pakistanís army shall ensure security of CPEC at all costs,Ē read a statement from the Pakistani military.

    Shortly after the Beijing meeting, Pakistanís government rolled back its invitation to Saudi Arabia to join CPEC and all talk of pausing or canceling Chinese projects has stopped.

    But China could face another challenge to its investments: a Pakistani financial crisis that has forced Mr. Khanís government to seek loans from international lenders that require transparency.

    Throughout September, international delegations traveled to Islamabad carrying the same message: Reveal the extent of Chinese loans if you want financial assistance.

    In a late September meeting with visiting officials from the International Monetary Fund, Pakistanís government asked for a bailout of up to $12 billion. The fundís representatives pressed Pakistan to share all existing agreements with the Chinese government and demanded I.M.F. input during any future CPEC negotiations ó a previously undisclosed facet of the negotiations, according to communications seen by the Fund and a Pakistani official. The fund also sought assurances that Pakistan would not use a bailout to repay CPEC loans.

    But the Chinese Embassy in Islamabad stepped up its engagement as well, demanding that CPEC deals be kept secret and promising to shore up Pakistanís finances with bilateral loans, Pakistani officials say.

    Three months after taking office, Mr. Khan still has not made good on his campaign promises to reveal the nature of the $62 billion investment Beijing has committed to Pakistan, and his government has backtracked on an I.M.F. deal.

    In early November, Mr. Khan visited Mr. Xi in Beijing, a trip during which he was expected to clinch bilateral loans and grants to ease Pakistanís financial crisis.

    Instead, his government walked away with vague promises of a deal ďin principle,Ē but refused to disclose any details.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/w...-military.html


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