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  1. #1
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    Is Azhar Mahmood to blame for the problems with our faster bowlers?

    It seems to me cross-seam has become the go-to delivery for many of our bowlers.

    I'm wondering why are the bowlers doing this and if Azhar has indeed told them to do so, or the players not listening to the bowling coach?

    Where are the yorkers? Where is the swing [not only this series] of our new ball bowlers?

    Hasan Ali doesn't look the same bowler he was after his injury. He, along with other aren't really bowling to the supposed plans.

    Less said about Amir the better.

    Shinwari has been very poor this tournament too.

    The only bowler that has mixed things up has been Shaheen Afridi. He's swung the ball first-up, seamed it and bowled slower balls.

    Do we blame the bowling coach or the bowlers themselves?


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  2. #2
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    I don't understand how someone like Azhar Mahmood could become a specialist bowling coach. You'd think when hiring a coach for a specific skill you'd hire someone with experience and knowledge in that particular field. Azhar Mahmood was a medium pacer who could at times seam the ball. He was never a prolific wicket taker. He was brought in to keep things tight and possibly contribute with a ticket or two during the middle overs.

    If you're going to keep a bowling coach for a team which is primarily consisting of pacers you need a bowling coach who himself was an experienced fast bowler. Moreover, we have Amir, Hassan Ali and Afridi who are all swing bowlers not seam bowler. What can someone like Azhar Ali teach them when he wasn't a swing bowler himself. What tips can he give them? How can he guide them when we doesn't know the art of swing bowling. Moreover, we've seen that our seam bowlers like Junaid and Usman Khan Shinwari haven't really performed that well under him either.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    I don't understand how someone like Azhar Mahmood could become a specialist bowling coach. You'd think when hiring a coach for a specific skill you'd hire someone with experience and knowledge in that particular field. Azhar Mahmood was a medium pacer who could at times seam the ball. He was never a prolific wicket taker. He was brought in to keep things tight and possibly contribute with a ticket or two during the middle overs.

    If you're going to keep a bowling coach for a team which is primarily consisting of pacers you need a bowling coach who himself was an experienced fast bowler. Moreover, we have Amir, Hassan Ali and Afridi who are all swing bowlers not seam bowler. What can someone like Azhar Ali teach them when he wasn't a swing bowler himself. What tips can he give them? How can he guide them when we doesn't know the art of swing bowling. Moreover, we've seen that our seam bowlers like Junaid and Usman Khan Shinwari haven't really performed that well under him either.
    Our fans know nothing about cricket. You don't have to be a good bowler to be a good bowling coach.

    At the international level, for a coach it is important for a coach to show them HOW to do something not what to do. The bowlers know what to do.

    International coaches don't teach bowlers stuff like how to inswing or outswing. You don't need a coach for that at international level. The focus is on drills and tracking progress of bowlers.

    Inzi is a batsman, how can he select bowlers?

    People just love using a scapegoat. The truth is conditions are not good for bowling here.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsha View Post
    Our fans know nothing about cricket. You don't have to be a good bowler to be a good bowling coach.

    At the international level, for a coach it is important for a coach to show them HOW to do something not what to do. The bowlers know what to do.

    International coaches don't teach bowlers stuff like how to inswing or outswing. You don't need a coach for that at international level. The focus is on drills and tracking progress of bowlers.

    Inzi is a batsman, how can he select bowlers?

    People just love using a scapegoat. The truth is conditions are not good for bowling here.
    Conditions not being good for bowling is no excuse for being pathetic with the ball. Look at the Indian bowlers, they know that the conditions are not conducive for pace bowling, they do the next best possible thing i.e. bowl to their field, bowl to the batsman's weak areas and keep the economy under control.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsha View Post
    Our fans know nothing about cricket. You don't have to be a good bowler to be a good bowling coach.

    At the international level, for a coach it is important for a coach to show them HOW to do something not what to do. The bowlers know what to do.

    International coaches don't teach bowlers stuff like how to inswing or outswing. You don't need a coach for that at international level. The focus is on drills and tracking progress of bowlers.

    Inzi is a batsman, how can he select bowlers?

    People just love using a scapegoat. The truth is conditions are not good for bowling here.
    I must disagree with you on this point and take football as an example.In the premier league they have different coaches for each position based on the fact that one player who has played in a certain position has the expertise to give out advice and guide players who play in that specific position. In fact, recently Liverpool have hired a coach who is a throw in specialist. We need to hire the right coaches for the right job. You can't hire a defender and ask him to coach strikers. That doesn't happen nor do they do this in football.

    The coach makes a huge difference and if the coach himself is inexperienced in a certain skill he really cannot contribute.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsha View Post
    Our fans know nothing about cricket. You don't have to be a good bowler to be a good bowling coach.

    At the international level, for a coach it is important for a coach to show them HOW to do something not what to do. The bowlers know what to do.

    International coaches don't teach bowlers stuff like how to inswing or outswing. You don't need a coach for that at international level. The focus is on drills and tracking progress of bowlers.

    Inzi is a batsman, how can he select bowlers?

    People just love using a scapegoat. The truth is conditions are not good for bowling here.
    I am going to quote myself again rather than responding all who disagreed with me.

    Like I said, a good coach is a good coach. Playing ability has little bearing on that. Diego Maradona was a terrible coach while Sir Alex Ferguson and semi professional player Louis Van Gaal won trophies upon trophies

  7. #7
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    Up until the CT victory he was being praised and now look ... why are we so fickle?


    He is fine.. he is a qualified bowling coach.. we gotta lay off the negativity.. these are difficukt bowling conditions. Our bowlers will do better in the next games..


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Up until the CT victory he was being praised and now look ... why are we so fickle?


    He is fine.. he is a qualified bowling coach.. we gotta lay off the negativity.. these are difficukt bowling conditions. Our bowlers will do better in the next games..
    Never did I ever praise him so much so that being the opposite was being fickle. Barring the latter stages of the CT, what exactly has he done? Genuine question.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  9. #9
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    Is Azhar Mahmood to applaud/blame for our victory/defeats? (*insert appropriate word depending on current result)

  10. #10
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    His fan circle will say it's not him.

    Others will say it's because of him.

    But, the reality is, our bowling has regressed significantly and it needs accountability.

    If bowlers are bowling cross seam with the new ball, it's the coach's responsibility and he's accountable.

    If bowlers are unable to consistently hit good length, or unable to bowl Yorkers, coach has to answer.

    Bumrah and co are improving. We are regressing. Did not even play spinners in this desert.

    You think coach has nothing to do with it? Good luck.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    His fan circle will say it's not him.

    Others will say it's because of him.

    But, the reality is, our bowling has regressed significantly and it needs accountability.

    If bowlers are bowling cross seam with the new ball, it's the coach's responsibility and he's accountable.

    If bowlers are unable to consistently hit good length, or unable to bowl Yorkers, coach has to answer.

    Bumrah and co are improving. We are regressing. Did not even play spinners in this desert.

    You think coach has nothing to do with it? Good luck.
    Exactly. If the problem is the bowlers, then it's fine to point fingers at the bowling coach. When it's the batting people on here are very critical of Flowers, yet we can't be the same for Azhar Mahood?

    When we lose you get people blaming Micky and Sarfraz. Why can't be blame Azhar Mahmood? It's not about being fickle, it's about seeing what's happening and wanting accountability.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Exactly. If the problem is the bowlers, then it's fine to point fingers at the bowling coach. When it's the batting people on here are very critical of Flowers, yet we can't be the same for Azhar Mahood?

    When we lose you get people blaming Micky and Sarfraz. Why can't be blame Azhar Mahmood? It's not about being fickle, it's about seeing what's happening and wanting accountability.
    Grant Flower has been our batting coach since 2014, how about doing a performance appraisal on him given that 4 years is a decent enough time to judge someone.

    Azhar has been in the job for 2 years and our bowling attack did show improvement in the CT and against minnow teams, this is perhaps the first time after a long while where our bowlers have looked clueless and ineffective but he deserves some margin for now.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Grant Flower has been our batting coach since 2014, how about doing a performance appraisal on him given that 4 years is a decent enough time to judge someone.

    Azhar has been in the job for 2 years and our bowling attack did show improvement in the CT and against minnow teams, this is perhaps the first time after a long while where our bowlers have looked clueless and ineffective but he deserves some margin for now.
    No offence but, Flower has been at the blunt end of some very negative comments when our batsmen do badly. Let's not pretend that never happens.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Exactly. If the problem is the bowlers, then it's fine to point fingers at the bowling coach. When it's the batting people on here are very critical of Flowers, yet we can't be the same for Azhar Mahood?

    When we lose you get people blaming Micky and Sarfraz. Why can't be blame Azhar Mahmood? It's not about being fickle, it's about seeing what's happening and wanting accountability.
    That is true.

    Folks here pick and choose the coach they like to bash / protect. If you're trashing a different coach, why not criticize the present one if the team's gong downhill?

  15. #15
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    He was never a good bowler, how is he the coach of Pakistan

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohit_Beardman View Post
    He was never a good bowler, how is he the coach of Pakistan
    Although it's not necessary that only great players become great coaches.

    But to become a coach of a top Test nation, you got to have significant international coaching experience of other Test nations.

    We can say Mickey has Australia and I think South African experience.

    What does Azhar have? What great bowlers were made or coached by him?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    Although it's not necessary that only great players become great coaches.

    But to become a coach of a top Test nation, you got to have significant international coaching experience of other Test nations.

    We can say Mickey has Australia and I think South African experience.

    What does Azhar have? What great bowlers were made or coached by him?
    Azhar Mahmood had his own academy in the UK, he invested in all the coaching certificates and is a recognized ICC accredited coach. Azhar has played in all the T-20 leagues around the world and is the best up to date guy to teach our bowlers the tricks required to excel in todays T-20 era.

    Waqar was a legendary cricketer and had coached our team 3 times.

    Mushtaq Ahmed has UK coaching qualifications and was our spin bowling coach.

    Our players have had access to the best possible coaches, the real question is do they have the work ethic of the players of the Big 5.

    Mickey Arthur has already lashed out at Wahab for his lack of work ethic. After a while it is down to the players in the end and them making the best of the opportunities that they have.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohit_Beardman View Post
    He was never a good bowler, how is he the coach of Pakistan
    Waqar Younis was a legendary fast bowler but our bowling stats were rubbish under his tenure.

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    Sarfraz is main reason :

    All bowler can hit for four or six , But every four or six he runs toward bowler.

    As per imran khan , Management under Sami played they told him to bowl on line and length and don't leak run. On the other hand his bowling style was aggressive and have wicket taking delivery.

    Same situation our bowling attack is facing , Ask Amir , Usman to go and take wickets , Forget about runs leakage

  20. #20
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    Its ultimately down to the bowlers. How can you forget what has been taught to you by the coaches in the past and present? You can't expect a coach to take a gun out and force players to buy into work ethic.

    Like Mickey Arthur said the other day, he saw Bumrah Practicing Yorker after Yorker in the nets and he was able to execute it perfectly in the match. How many of our bowlers actually flat out work and practice all these things in the net and during the off season?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Its ultimately down to the bowlers. How can you forget what has been taught to you by the coaches in the past and present? You can't expect a coach to take a gun out and force players to buy into work ethic.

    Like Mickey Arthur said the other day, he saw Bumrah Practicing Yorker after Yorker in the nets and he was able to execute it perfectly in the match. How many of our bowlers actually flat out work and practice all these things in the net and during the off season?
    I said this in the Amir thread, his inability to listen to or gauge the coach[es] instructions have been detrimental to his form.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  22. #22
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    I don't know what Azhar is doing but I wonder why most of these guys, especially Amir, don't seem to show any signs of improvement at all.

  23. #23
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    Next thing you know people will be blaming the physio and the media manager.

    Azhar Mahmood is a good coach. All the Pakistani bowlers have admitted that he has helped them become better bowlers. The coach can only tell you to bowl according to a plan or tell you what you are doing wrong, it is up to the bowlers to execute them and make things happen. And Pakistani bowers were drab when it came to execution. Also, you don't necassarily have to be a good player to be a good coach. If you look at some of the best coaches in the world many of them are failed cricketers: Ottis Gibson, Graham Ford, Sanjay Bangar to name a few. Coaching rather depends on your understanding of the game or a particular craft i.e batting, bowling, fielding and the ability to both be critical and be able see through areas where other players improve. It has a lot to do with the intellect of a particular person rather than how good he was as a player.
    Last edited by RedwoodOriginal; 25th September 2018 at 23:14.

  24. #24
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    More than Azhar, flower deserves criticism. Almost 4 years and I haven't seen much improvmemt in even one batsman.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarfiBabarHaris View Post
    More than Azhar, flower deserves criticism. Almost 4 years and I haven't seen much improvmemt in even one batsman.
    4 years is a decent amount of time to judge someone. Its time to try someone else now.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarfiBabarHaris View Post
    More than Azhar, flower deserves criticism. Almost 4 years and I haven't seen much improvmemt in even one batsman.
    I'd say there's three - Fakhar Zaman, Sharjeel Khan (pre-ban) and Azhar Ali until recently had his best run in Test cricket.

    On our last two England tours, our batsmen have looked more technically compact (bar the Test at Old Trafford in 2016 and Headingley 2018) and equipped to play the moving ball than I've seen in a long time.

    It's true strike rotation remains a concern. Maybe he's not a good ODI batting coach - Grant was more of a grinder in his playing days.

    The problem lies with grassroots coaching. That's when young batsmen develop their techniques whereas at international level there aren't many batsmen who make major technical changes.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    I'd say there's three - Fakhar Zaman, Sharjeel Khan (pre-ban) and Azhar Ali until recently had his best run in Test cricket.

    On our last two England tours, our batsmen have looked more technically compact (bar the Test at Old Trafford in 2016 and Headingley 2018) and equipped to play the moving ball than I've seen in a long time.

    It's true strike rotation remains a concern. Maybe he's not a good ODI batting coach - Grant was more of a grinder in his playing days.

    The problem lies with grassroots coaching. That's when young batsmen develop their techniques whereas at international level there aren't many batsmen who make major technical changes.
    The present Pakistani batsmen do not play with the flair of our previous batsmen, I also believe that these coaches at times over complicate things with their analysis and instructions. Someone like Inzamam will be better able to draw on his experiences and guide our local batsmen better.

  28. #28
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    Make wasim akram bowling coach

  29. #29
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    We do not know what percentage of the blame should fall on Azhar's shoulders, but ultimately, the performance of a coach is gauged through the performance of the players. If the pacers are bowling tripe, the bowling coach has to answer. If that is not the case, how would you measure the performance of a bowling coach?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    We do not know what percentage of the blame should fall on Azhar's shoulders, but ultimately, the performance of a coach is gauged through the performance of the players. If the pacers are bowling tripe, the bowling coach has to answer. If that is not the case, how would you measure the performance of a bowling coach?
    After continuous trash bowling by the bowlers. I believe that the Pakistani bowlers had a poor tour of NZ and now Asia Cup under his watch but were decent on other tours and the CT. To early to have knives out for him at this stage.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    We do not know what percentage of the blame should fall on Azhar's shoulders, but ultimately, the performance of a coach is gauged through the performance of the players. If the pacers are bowling tripe, the bowling coach has to answer. If that is not the case, how would you measure the performance of a bowling coach?
    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    After continuous trash bowling by the bowlers. I believe that the Pakistani bowlers had a poor tour of NZ and now Asia Cup under his watch but were decent on other tours and the CT. To early to have knives out for him at this stage.
    You have guys like Wasim Akram and Shoaib Akhtar commentating around the world, get them coaching contracts worth few crores and they will come. People may laugh on Shoaib but if you listen to his Urdu/Hindi commentary he analyses fast bowling very well.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    We do not know what percentage of the blame should fall on Azhar's shoulders, but ultimately, the performance of a coach is gauged through the performance of the players. If the pacers are bowling tripe, the bowling coach has to answer. If that is not the case, how would you measure the performance of a bowling coach?
    Basically this.

    When you're continuously regressing, there has to be a chain of accountability and the bowling coach has to answer.

    Otherwise, there's no other way to judge the coach.

    People have biases. If this horrible show was done under Waqar, people would have been calling for his head! All that the team did wrong was due to Waqar at that time.

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    Azhar should have prepared the bowlers for the kind of pitches we are dealing with. You can't be telling me that Amir or Hassan do not know how to bowl yorkers.
    When looking at India's bowling performance what stood out was how smartly they were bowling as opposed to how skillful they were.

  34. #34
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    Sarfaraz is a captain and he takes decisions such as field settings, change of bowlers, reads the flow of play etc - much more directly involved.

    Mickey and coaches can tell the players what they like but they have to execute.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    He should be looked at of course but where are those posters who were saying our attack is the best in the world? Shouldn't have over hyped this attack. It is a good attack but as I said it has a lot to prove before being labelled with that tag.

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    I am sick of some of these self proclaimed experts/pakistani fans thinking out loud on online forums..

    If only the world ran on your opinions... i am sorry to say but a secrion of pakistani fans are the most immature bunch on the fave of this planet. Baatein ornmashwaraey or complaints sun lo in se..

    After the CT victory everybody aknowldges the role of azhar with the bowling.. how his knowledge of bowling in England helped. He was lauded and praised.. yes our bowlers have struggled in the last two/three games .. but its the same combo of players and coaches thst have helped rack up some consistent wins for us... our life should not revolve around ODI wins against india.

    Its stupid and immature.. its exactly due to reactions like these our players and coaches feel so much pressure and then they crumble because they themselves impose all that pressure on themselves. Dont make one or two games a matter of life and death or career.

    There should be a consistent and planned effort to improve regardless of opppsition. Given the circumstances, our team and coaches have given us decent results. Lets not forget their accomplishments overnight. I wouldnt give a flying...... if we lose 3-4 ODIs to India. As long as the team performs well overall and wins against other teams consistently, does well at the World Cup, etc. thats what we should be thinking about..


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  37. #37
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    Azhar has to take the some of the blame for what has happened, but it is also a case of bowlers executing what they learned in practice. Maybe its a case of the bowlers' work ethic. After all, a lot of people are saying that the fame has gotten to some the bowlers' heads.

    Regardless, there are still few things for which Azhar can be blamed, like a lack of plan or bowlers wasting the new ball with this scrambled seam bowling. At the end of the day though, if he has set a plan, and taught them the skills necessary to execute the plan, yet they fail to deliver, then the bowlers should be held accountable and dropped from the team if it continues to happen.

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    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post

    Oh no! This will hurt a lot of people

  40. #40
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    Azhar Mahmood has worked very closely with Surrey in the UK as well as other counties, has his own academy and has all the icc qualifications, he is probably one of the most qualified coaches in Pakistani cricket, just because he wasn't the best bowler does not mean he is a rubbish coach, in fact most of the best players have failed as coaches. The players should be ultimately held responsible for their own performances at this level when they step on to the field, the coach should only be there to assist and recommend minor tweaks.

  41. #41
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    In your face, Azhar haters!


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  42. #42
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    Hes doing a reasonable decent job.

    Just a year ago everyone was singing his hyms but now if the bowlers don’t perform then he gets all the blame.

    When he speaks he knows what’s he talking about. He always tells the bowlers to pitch it up unlike Mohammed Akram who was horrendous when he advocated bowling back of a length nonsense.

    Some bowlers no matter who the coach will not improve or do it on a consistent basis because they don’t want to or have the capacity to do so - this is something fans should always have in their minds before looking for scapegoats.

    The only 1 issue I think Azhar can work on the bowlers is the Yorkers - someone like Hassan should have developed that delivery a better by now.

  43. #43
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    Players at international level are responsible for their own performances. Coaches can only do as much. Its naive to believe a change in the bowling coach personnel will turn the current lot into Wasim or Waqar

  44. #44
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    As a coach Azhar is doing (from the looks of it) his up most best but the bowlers must take certain responsibilities. We have to remember certain bowlers have improved under this current PCB coaching. But also the commitment must be there from the bowlers to improve

  45. #45
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    Azhar is a good lad. He has put his coaching role at stake for players he rates, like Junaid and Shinwari.

  46. #46
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    Azhar was credited with the good showing by the bowlers in the CT 2017 but there was no excuse for the toothless showing by the bowlers on the NZ tour and Asia Cup

  47. #47
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    But the way our bowling has regressed over the last few years, surely we need to make our bowling coach accountable.

    We're now number 7. Players are not the only ones to blame.

    We need to hire a bowling coach with experience of a top fast bowling attack unit.
    Last edited by MenInG; 11th January 2019 at 20:00. Reason: Write sensible stuff

  48. #48
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    Yep needs to go.

  49. #49
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    Confused Ppers are posting all over the place.

    Azhar Mahmood, is the best bowling coach Pakistan has had since many years. Worked with raw players like Hasan Ali, Faheem,etc.. and transformed them. Compared to what coach Waqar Younis did to Junaid Khan and others, Mahmood is by far the best in the league.

    He was absolutely spot on Amir and the time will prove him right once again. Amir has been a disgrace.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khwaja78 View Post
    Confused Ppers are posting all over the place.

    Azhar Mahmood, is the best bowling coach Pakistan has had since many years. Worked with raw players like Hasan Ali, Faheem,etc.. and transformed them. Compared to what coach Waqar Younis did to Junaid Khan and others, Mahmood is by far the best in the league.

    He was absolutely spot on Amir and the time will prove him right once again. Amir has been a disgrace.
    What?

    Each and every bowler has regressed. Even Hasan who was naturally good is now all over the place when bowling and having a horrible time for at least one year.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    What?

    Each and every bowler has regressed. Even Hasan who was naturally good is now all over the place when bowling and having a horrible time for at least one year.
    Hasan's length is issue but his bowling more or less the same.There are outside issues as well he is being dropped for the most ****** bowler in team right now who has actually regressed. Hasan's swing, pace is still there.

    Amir pace is in 120s, he can't swing into the right hander, he bowls with scrambled seam and defensive line which does'nt give wickets. This is regression

  52. #52
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    Waqar was a much better bowling coach.

  53. #53
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    Our bowlers bowl one line, one length, and one pAce. There is no strategy in how they structure an over or a spell. For that you have to blame the Head Coach and Bowling Coach.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by unemployedgm View Post
    Our bowlers bowl one line, one length, and one pAce. There is no strategy in how they structure an over or a spell. For that you have to blame the Head Coach and Bowling Coach.
    They did very well yesterday. Think this urge to look for scapegoats is rather silly


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  55. #55
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    A very decent showing by the pace attack today- as is usually the case.

    We are just accustomed to the 3rd grade low class batting from our batsmen and then expect our bowlers to do the same to the opposition which wont happen 9 times out of 10.


    Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.


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