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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    They didn't improve under him. Instead Hassan Ali got worse after Champions Trophy. He found form again in PSL

    Faheem is more or less same he was during the PSL, which got him selected

    Shaheen was a prospect from U19 and he just continued what he did at that level. I don't see any improvement with his wobbly seam or anything to suggest some coach has been done to improve him.
    As you yourself pointed out that was a form issue, how does the blame lie on Azhar? All you need to do is watch a video from the England series in ‘16 and compare that to the bowler he is now, not that he is the finished product now either. The difference is glaringly obvious.

    Faheem was picked for Pakistan before he made his PSL debut. You clearly haven’t seen much of him prior to his international debut because he’s very visibly improved under the national set up. He’s a much more penetrative bowler and has gained some K’s as well. But this still doesn’t take away from the fact he’s an average bowler.

    Shaheen doesn’t fall away as much as he did during his U-19 playing period. Other things such as setting up batsman, the development of variations etc. Again, there’s clearly been a significant improvement.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    snip
    What did Azhar did to improve Hassan? Form of bowler isn't like batsman that you lose the timing to hit the ball. It's about rhythm. Coach impart skills to the bowlers. Clearly that didnt happen as long as he was playing under Azhar for so much time after CT and only happened in PSL when he probably found right coach to guide him what he could do improve him. More than 2 years after CT

    Faheem was selected because of PSL. And he improved there. And yes he is average, the most he can do is bowl a tight length. I am not sure what exactly he improved? Improving extra Ks? That's what muscles do. Unless Azhar put him on steroids and diet plan, not sure what he did with him. Line and length is basic stuff and he may have become more accurate at that with practice.

    Shaheen played PSL after that and learned variations there. Other things come with experience.
    Watch this, as he clearly got better in PSL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTB_6rhIqug.

    And do see what had happened with Amir.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    What did Azhar did to improve Hassan? Form of bowler isn't like batsman that you lose the timing to hit the ball. It's about rhythm. Coach impart skills to the bowlers. Clearly that didnt happen as long as he was playing under Azhar for so much time after CT and only happened in PSL when he probably found right coach to guide him what he could do improve him. More than 2 years after CT

    Faheem was selected because of PSL. And he improved there. And yes he is average, the most he can do is bowl a tight length. I am not sure what exactly he improved? Improving extra Ks? That's what muscles do. Unless Azhar put him on steroids and diet plan, not sure what he did with him. Line and length is basic stuff and he may have become more accurate at that with practice.

    Shaheen played PSL after that and learned variations there. Other things come with experience.
    Watch this, as he clearly got better in PSL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTB_6rhIqug.

    And do see what had happened with Amir.
    Lol wut? Are you suggesting that Azhar hasnít developed any of Hasanís skills and that a coach completely transformed him during a T20 tournament- where thereís nearly zero attention paid to skill development or technical issues. Hats off to you sir. For me the only difference between Hasan in the PSL and Hasan at the international level prior to the PSL is him being allowed to be bowl freely and getting the new ball.

    Again Faheem was not selected because of the PSL. He was a member of Pakistanís LOI sides before making his PSL debut. And I repeat, you donít make significant improvements during a month long T20 tournament where teams are playing back to back games and travelling constantly. No, building muscle does not result in an automatic increase in pace. The only way pace can be significantly improved is through technique.

    Why are you avoiding the obvious technical work done with Shaheen. Iím not saying that heís now technically perfect but there has been obvious improvement. What does his spell against the Sultans have anything to do with improvement? Surely your not trying to say that Aqib has had anything to do with Shaheens development as a bowler.

    @Cheif Destroyer has a couple of very good posts on Amirís issues, Iíd suggest you read them.

  4. #84
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    I believe in results/performance/results. What I have seen Hassan do, I have said it here. And he certainly declined for 2 years, under Mehmood's coaching, and then picked up in the middle part of this PSL. So, Does Azhar have to do with this decline? Pretty sure. I will stick with this, until Azhar go back to past and change this fact.

    You obviously aren't giving these month long PSL or domestic coaching any importance. Where the fact has been our guys have groomed by that setup and have performed there, only to be let down after they were picked for national squad where they went static or lost their mojo.

    Now, any sane mind would question the relation between this. That spell of Shaheen was supposed to tell you he was already on his way to improvement before being 'polished' by Azhar. Azhar would have imparted the basics to him as would any coach during his tenure, but the fact is our bowling unit struggled a lot, and never have we witnessed such poor performance by them, when they couldn't get the opposition out. This is not just lack of coaching to players, but total lack of planning on how to get them out or how to have bowlers ready/train for that plan so that they don't have to lose by 8 or so wickets even after they score 280+ runs

  5. #85
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    We're going to suffer even further.

    Bring in someone else asap!

  6. #86
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    Pakistani bowling has absolutely been in shambles.

    The lack of taking wickets with new-ball is haunting us.

    The sooner Pakistan changes itís bowling coach, the better it will be.

  7. #87
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    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.

  8. #88
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    I think the fast bowlers struggling in international cricket is a symptom of our domestic cricket structure where bowlers just get easy wickets and don't have the ability to bowl with the old kookaburra ball.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.
    Surely not though? Look at the way some of the English players have improved over the years.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.
    Whatever mentorship or consultancy he is doing doesnt look to be working as results on the field are there to be seen for everyone.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    Lol wut? Are you suggesting that Azhar hasn’t developed any of Hasan’s skills and that a coach completely transformed him during a T20 tournament- where there’s nearly zero attention paid to skill development or technical issues. Hats off to you sir. For me the only difference between Hasan in the PSL and Hasan at the international level prior to the PSL is him being allowed to be bowl freely and getting the new ball.

    Again Faheem was not selected because of the PSL. He was a member of Pakistan’s LOI sides before making his PSL debut. And I repeat, you don’t make significant improvements during a month long T20 tournament where teams are playing back to back games and travelling constantly. No, building muscle does not result in an automatic increase in pace. The only way pace can be significantly improved is through technique.

    Why are you avoiding the obvious technical work done with Shaheen. I’m not saying that he’s now technically perfect but there has been obvious improvement. What does his spell against the Sultans have anything to do with improvement? Surely your not trying to say that Aqib has had anything to do with Shaheens development as a bowler.

    @Cheif Destroyer has a couple of very good posts on Amir’s issues, I’d suggest you read them.
    Cant deny Azhar's efforts but the best Hassan has looked post CT 17 was in this year's PSL under the coaching of Mohammad Akram. Mohammad Akram was also the one who picked him for PZ as emerging player in his first tournament ever.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Surely not though? Look at the way some of the English players have improved over the years.
    The common perception is that coaches work with you intensively and that was also mine, but i have spoken to a few players and I wanted to find out what the coaches do and the universal reply was that they expect you at that level to figure it out, but if you do need help they are there for you.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Whatever mentorship or consultancy he is doing doesnt look to be working as results on the field are there to be seen for everyone.
    Maybe they are not good enough. Coaches can give you ideas, and I would go as far as to say that the best coach for the player is himself.
    I have seen junior coaches work intensively with young fast bowlers in the rest flick to gain extra pace, and although I wasn't a believer at first it did make a difference to many of the more talented guys.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Cant deny Azhar's efforts but the best Hassan has looked post CT 17 was in this year's PSL under the coaching of Mohammad Akram. Mohammad Akram was also the one who picked him for PZ as emerging player in his first tournament ever.
    I agree and I’m suggesting that it had more to do with Hasan taking the new ball rather than some miraculous coaching.

  15. #95
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    Until the final 30-odd deliveries this series I haven't seen a yorker bowled that would make us Pakistani fans old enough proud. They simply stopped bowling them until the very end when things have gone out of shape.

    Azhar needs to be asked about why the bowlers can't swing/seam barring Shaheen. Why they refuse to bowl fuller. And why someone like Amir scrambles his seam when he bowls quicker, when all he needs to be told is to slower it down and bowl it more fuller.

    I swear the issues can be resolved but it seems over coaching staff, despite having the laptops and gizmos, are too ignorant of basic issues and are relying on individual talent rather than bowl as a group.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    I believe in results/performance/results. What I have seen Hassan do, I have said it here. And he certainly declined for 2 years, under Mehmood's coaching, and then picked up in the middle part of this PSL. So, Does Azhar have to do with this decline? Pretty sure. I will stick with this, until Azhar go back to past and change this fact.

    You obviously aren't giving these month long PSL or domestic coaching any importance. Where the fact has been our guys have groomed by that setup and have performed there, only to be let down after they were picked for national squad where they went static or lost their mojo.

    Now, any sane mind would question the relation between this. That spell of Shaheen was supposed to tell you he was already on his way to improvement before being 'polished' by Azhar. Azhar would have imparted the basics to him as would any coach during his tenure, but the fact is our bowling unit struggled a lot, and never have we witnessed such poor performance by them, when they couldn't get the opposition out. This is not just lack of coaching to players, but total lack of planning on how to get them out or how to have bowlers ready/train for that plan so that they don't have to lose by 8 or so wickets even after they score 280+ runs
    I would love for you to point out some areas where Hasan’s bowling bowling declined. It was a form issue, it’s as simple as that.

    A player is hardly groomed by the PSL. You can’t compare international cricket to the PSL- a league where batting standards are incredibly mediocre, and are coupled with sluggish pitches.

    Azhar doesn’t cast a spell of some sort on PSL bullies, ala Faheem, which makes them look out of depth against quality international sides on true pitches.

    That day everything clicked for Shaheen, that’s all there is to it. If my memory serves me right he got carted around in a lot of the games after that as well.

    I think that’s a reflection of the bowlers moreso than the coach. I don’t know about you but an attack consisting of two test specialists in Abbas and Yasir, a harmless trundler in Junaid Khan, and the wicketless wonder that is Amir, doesn’t inspire much confidence.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    I would love for you to point out some areas where Hasanís bowling bowling declined. It was a form issue, itís as simple as that.

    A player is hardly groomed by the PSL. You canít compare international cricket to the PSL- a league where batting standards are incredibly mediocre, and are coupled with sluggish pitches.

    Azhar doesnít cast a spell of some sort on PSL bullies, ala Faheem, which makes them look out of depth against quality international sides on true pitches.

    That day everything clicked for Shaheen, thatís all there is to it. If my memory serves me right he got carted around in a lot of the games after that as well.

    I think thatís a reflection of the bowlers moreso than the coach. I donít know about you but an attack consisting of two test specialists in Abbas and Yasir, a harmless trundler in Junaid Khan, and the wicketless wonder that is Amir, doesnít inspire much confidence.
    NO! Re-read what I said. I am obviously no bowling coach to figure out what Hassan did wrong, but the results do make it obvious if anyone is worried about his performance under Azhar. So, did Aamir. I am sticking to my criticism of Azhar, the worst thing that happened to our fast bowlers in this era. And let's just agree to disagree.
    Last edited by xricket; 1st April 2019 at 01:59.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Until the final 30-odd deliveries this series I haven't seen a yorker bowled that would make us Pakistani fans old enough proud. They simply stopped bowling them until the very end when things have gone out of shape.

    Azhar needs to be asked about why the bowlers can't swing/seam barring Shaheen. Why they refuse to bowl fuller. And why someone like Amir scrambles his seam when he bowls quicker, when all he needs to be told is to slower it down and bowl it more fuller.

    I swear the issues can be resolved but it seems over coaching staff, despite having the laptops and gizmos, are too ignorant of basic issues and are relying on individual talent rather than bowl as a group.
    Couldn't agree more. And these are basic things. Bowling full, with upright seam, delivering close to the stumps, bowling yorkers at the death. What happened to all that?


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