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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    They didn't improve under him. Instead Hassan Ali got worse after Champions Trophy. He found form again in PSL

    Faheem is more or less same he was during the PSL, which got him selected

    Shaheen was a prospect from U19 and he just continued what he did at that level. I don't see any improvement with his wobbly seam or anything to suggest some coach has been done to improve him.
    As you yourself pointed out that was a form issue, how does the blame lie on Azhar? All you need to do is watch a video from the England series in ‘16 and compare that to the bowler he is now, not that he is the finished product now either. The difference is glaringly obvious.

    Faheem was picked for Pakistan before he made his PSL debut. You clearly haven’t seen much of him prior to his international debut because he’s very visibly improved under the national set up. He’s a much more penetrative bowler and has gained some K’s as well. But this still doesn’t take away from the fact he’s an average bowler.

    Shaheen doesn’t fall away as much as he did during his U-19 playing period. Other things such as setting up batsman, the development of variations etc. Again, there’s clearly been a significant improvement.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    snip
    What did Azhar did to improve Hassan? Form of bowler isn't like batsman that you lose the timing to hit the ball. It's about rhythm. Coach impart skills to the bowlers. Clearly that didnt happen as long as he was playing under Azhar for so much time after CT and only happened in PSL when he probably found right coach to guide him what he could do improve him. More than 2 years after CT

    Faheem was selected because of PSL. And he improved there. And yes he is average, the most he can do is bowl a tight length. I am not sure what exactly he improved? Improving extra Ks? That's what muscles do. Unless Azhar put him on steroids and diet plan, not sure what he did with him. Line and length is basic stuff and he may have become more accurate at that with practice.

    Shaheen played PSL after that and learned variations there. Other things come with experience.
    Watch this, as he clearly got better in PSL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTB_6rhIqug.

    And do see what had happened with Amir.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    What did Azhar did to improve Hassan? Form of bowler isn't like batsman that you lose the timing to hit the ball. It's about rhythm. Coach impart skills to the bowlers. Clearly that didnt happen as long as he was playing under Azhar for so much time after CT and only happened in PSL when he probably found right coach to guide him what he could do improve him. More than 2 years after CT

    Faheem was selected because of PSL. And he improved there. And yes he is average, the most he can do is bowl a tight length. I am not sure what exactly he improved? Improving extra Ks? That's what muscles do. Unless Azhar put him on steroids and diet plan, not sure what he did with him. Line and length is basic stuff and he may have become more accurate at that with practice.

    Shaheen played PSL after that and learned variations there. Other things come with experience.
    Watch this, as he clearly got better in PSL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTB_6rhIqug.

    And do see what had happened with Amir.
    Lol wut? Are you suggesting that Azhar hasnít developed any of Hasanís skills and that a coach completely transformed him during a T20 tournament- where thereís nearly zero attention paid to skill development or technical issues. Hats off to you sir. For me the only difference between Hasan in the PSL and Hasan at the international level prior to the PSL is him being allowed to be bowl freely and getting the new ball.

    Again Faheem was not selected because of the PSL. He was a member of Pakistanís LOI sides before making his PSL debut. And I repeat, you donít make significant improvements during a month long T20 tournament where teams are playing back to back games and travelling constantly. No, building muscle does not result in an automatic increase in pace. The only way pace can be significantly improved is through technique.

    Why are you avoiding the obvious technical work done with Shaheen. Iím not saying that heís now technically perfect but there has been obvious improvement. What does his spell against the Sultans have anything to do with improvement? Surely your not trying to say that Aqib has had anything to do with Shaheens development as a bowler.

    @Cheif Destroyer has a couple of very good posts on Amirís issues, Iíd suggest you read them.

  4. #84
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    I believe in results/performance/results. What I have seen Hassan do, I have said it here. And he certainly declined for 2 years, under Mehmood's coaching, and then picked up in the middle part of this PSL. So, Does Azhar have to do with this decline? Pretty sure. I will stick with this, until Azhar go back to past and change this fact.

    You obviously aren't giving these month long PSL or domestic coaching any importance. Where the fact has been our guys have groomed by that setup and have performed there, only to be let down after they were picked for national squad where they went static or lost their mojo.

    Now, any sane mind would question the relation between this. That spell of Shaheen was supposed to tell you he was already on his way to improvement before being 'polished' by Azhar. Azhar would have imparted the basics to him as would any coach during his tenure, but the fact is our bowling unit struggled a lot, and never have we witnessed such poor performance by them, when they couldn't get the opposition out. This is not just lack of coaching to players, but total lack of planning on how to get them out or how to have bowlers ready/train for that plan so that they don't have to lose by 8 or so wickets even after they score 280+ runs

  5. #85
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    We're going to suffer even further.

    Bring in someone else asap!

  6. #86
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    Pakistani bowling has absolutely been in shambles.

    The lack of taking wickets with new-ball is haunting us.

    The sooner Pakistan changes itís bowling coach, the better it will be.

  7. #87
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    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.

  8. #88
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    I think the fast bowlers struggling in international cricket is a symptom of our domestic cricket structure where bowlers just get easy wickets and don't have the ability to bowl with the old kookaburra ball.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.
    Surely not though? Look at the way some of the English players have improved over the years.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    If any of you guys ever get to talk to 1st class cricketers, they will tell you that at that level there is no actual coaching and more like consultancy or mentorship. Some blaming AM is a bit misguided.
    Whatever mentorship or consultancy he is doing doesnt look to be working as results on the field are there to be seen for everyone.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    Lol wut? Are you suggesting that Azhar hasn’t developed any of Hasan’s skills and that a coach completely transformed him during a T20 tournament- where there’s nearly zero attention paid to skill development or technical issues. Hats off to you sir. For me the only difference between Hasan in the PSL and Hasan at the international level prior to the PSL is him being allowed to be bowl freely and getting the new ball.

    Again Faheem was not selected because of the PSL. He was a member of Pakistan’s LOI sides before making his PSL debut. And I repeat, you don’t make significant improvements during a month long T20 tournament where teams are playing back to back games and travelling constantly. No, building muscle does not result in an automatic increase in pace. The only way pace can be significantly improved is through technique.

    Why are you avoiding the obvious technical work done with Shaheen. I’m not saying that he’s now technically perfect but there has been obvious improvement. What does his spell against the Sultans have anything to do with improvement? Surely your not trying to say that Aqib has had anything to do with Shaheens development as a bowler.

    @Cheif Destroyer has a couple of very good posts on Amir’s issues, I’d suggest you read them.
    Cant deny Azhar's efforts but the best Hassan has looked post CT 17 was in this year's PSL under the coaching of Mohammad Akram. Mohammad Akram was also the one who picked him for PZ as emerging player in his first tournament ever.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Surely not though? Look at the way some of the English players have improved over the years.
    The common perception is that coaches work with you intensively and that was also mine, but i have spoken to a few players and I wanted to find out what the coaches do and the universal reply was that they expect you at that level to figure it out, but if you do need help they are there for you.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Whatever mentorship or consultancy he is doing doesnt look to be working as results on the field are there to be seen for everyone.
    Maybe they are not good enough. Coaches can give you ideas, and I would go as far as to say that the best coach for the player is himself.
    I have seen junior coaches work intensively with young fast bowlers in the rest flick to gain extra pace, and although I wasn't a believer at first it did make a difference to many of the more talented guys.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Cant deny Azhar's efforts but the best Hassan has looked post CT 17 was in this year's PSL under the coaching of Mohammad Akram. Mohammad Akram was also the one who picked him for PZ as emerging player in his first tournament ever.
    I agree and I’m suggesting that it had more to do with Hasan taking the new ball rather than some miraculous coaching.

  15. #95
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    Until the final 30-odd deliveries this series I haven't seen a yorker bowled that would make us Pakistani fans old enough proud. They simply stopped bowling them until the very end when things have gone out of shape.

    Azhar needs to be asked about why the bowlers can't swing/seam barring Shaheen. Why they refuse to bowl fuller. And why someone like Amir scrambles his seam when he bowls quicker, when all he needs to be told is to slower it down and bowl it more fuller.

    I swear the issues can be resolved but it seems over coaching staff, despite having the laptops and gizmos, are too ignorant of basic issues and are relying on individual talent rather than bowl as a group.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by xricket View Post
    I believe in results/performance/results. What I have seen Hassan do, I have said it here. And he certainly declined for 2 years, under Mehmood's coaching, and then picked up in the middle part of this PSL. So, Does Azhar have to do with this decline? Pretty sure. I will stick with this, until Azhar go back to past and change this fact.

    You obviously aren't giving these month long PSL or domestic coaching any importance. Where the fact has been our guys have groomed by that setup and have performed there, only to be let down after they were picked for national squad where they went static or lost their mojo.

    Now, any sane mind would question the relation between this. That spell of Shaheen was supposed to tell you he was already on his way to improvement before being 'polished' by Azhar. Azhar would have imparted the basics to him as would any coach during his tenure, but the fact is our bowling unit struggled a lot, and never have we witnessed such poor performance by them, when they couldn't get the opposition out. This is not just lack of coaching to players, but total lack of planning on how to get them out or how to have bowlers ready/train for that plan so that they don't have to lose by 8 or so wickets even after they score 280+ runs
    I would love for you to point out some areas where Hasan’s bowling bowling declined. It was a form issue, it’s as simple as that.

    A player is hardly groomed by the PSL. You can’t compare international cricket to the PSL- a league where batting standards are incredibly mediocre, and are coupled with sluggish pitches.

    Azhar doesn’t cast a spell of some sort on PSL bullies, ala Faheem, which makes them look out of depth against quality international sides on true pitches.

    That day everything clicked for Shaheen, that’s all there is to it. If my memory serves me right he got carted around in a lot of the games after that as well.

    I think that’s a reflection of the bowlers moreso than the coach. I don’t know about you but an attack consisting of two test specialists in Abbas and Yasir, a harmless trundler in Junaid Khan, and the wicketless wonder that is Amir, doesn’t inspire much confidence.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    I would love for you to point out some areas where Hasanís bowling bowling declined. It was a form issue, itís as simple as that.

    A player is hardly groomed by the PSL. You canít compare international cricket to the PSL- a league where batting standards are incredibly mediocre, and are coupled with sluggish pitches.

    Azhar doesnít cast a spell of some sort on PSL bullies, ala Faheem, which makes them look out of depth against quality international sides on true pitches.

    That day everything clicked for Shaheen, thatís all there is to it. If my memory serves me right he got carted around in a lot of the games after that as well.

    I think thatís a reflection of the bowlers moreso than the coach. I donít know about you but an attack consisting of two test specialists in Abbas and Yasir, a harmless trundler in Junaid Khan, and the wicketless wonder that is Amir, doesnít inspire much confidence.
    NO! Re-read what I said. I am obviously no bowling coach to figure out what Hassan did wrong, but the results do make it obvious if anyone is worried about his performance under Azhar. So, did Aamir. I am sticking to my criticism of Azhar, the worst thing that happened to our fast bowlers in this era. And let's just agree to disagree.
    Last edited by xricket; 1st April 2019 at 01:59.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Until the final 30-odd deliveries this series I haven't seen a yorker bowled that would make us Pakistani fans old enough proud. They simply stopped bowling them until the very end when things have gone out of shape.

    Azhar needs to be asked about why the bowlers can't swing/seam barring Shaheen. Why they refuse to bowl fuller. And why someone like Amir scrambles his seam when he bowls quicker, when all he needs to be told is to slower it down and bowl it more fuller.

    I swear the issues can be resolved but it seems over coaching staff, despite having the laptops and gizmos, are too ignorant of basic issues and are relying on individual talent rather than bowl as a group.
    Couldn't agree more. And these are basic things. Bowling full, with upright seam, delivering close to the stumps, bowling yorkers at the death. What happened to all that?

  19. #99
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    Maybe we should credit the bowling coach for the fine way our fast bowlers are bowling.


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  20. #100
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    Credit where it's due but who decides that it's a good idea to bowl slower deliveries within the first 3 or 4 overs. Especially when it's swinging

  21. #101
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    Our two best fast bowlers haven't even been around the set -up.
    He should take the blame for Shaheen's decline

  22. #102
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    Except Amir none of the fast bowlers are performing THAT well and i would blame Azhar Mehmood for that.

    Shaheen and Hassan Ali have been leaking too many runs and they are also missing seam and swing with the new ball.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeon1994 View Post
    Except Amir none of the fast bowlers are performing THAT well and i would blame Azhar Mehmood for that.

    Shaheen and Hassan Ali have been leaking too many runs and they are also missing seam and swing with the new ball.
    Amir is relying on his domestic coach therefore Azhar Mahmood shouldn't be credited for his performances

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Amir is relying on his domestic coach therefore Azhar Mahmood shouldn't be credited for his performances
    Hypnosis? or via Skype?


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  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Amir is relying on his domestic coach therefore Azhar Mahmood shouldn't be credited for his performances
    If the bowlers struggle, blame Azhar, if they do well, praise others. This is the biggest problem with posters like you. You guys select individuals to hate and guys to love and then blindly critisize/praise them.


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  26. #106
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    What's the final verdict on Azhar Mahmood?

    Before the world cup when Amir and other bowlers were getting smashed in the Australia and England series, everyone was bashing Azhar Mehmood.

    Now we have got 2 bowlers in the top 6 of the world cup, with 1 taking 17 wicekts and the other taking 16, while our third bowler also showed good effort only to see 9 catches be dropped off his bowling.

    Plus, we didn't had to use our 5 bowler on bench.

    So was this because of Azhar Mehmood, the world cup bowling?

    Whats the final verdict?
    Or is it bad performance because of coach, good performance because of player himself or because Waseem Akram likes to take credit.


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  27. #107
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    Pakistani pacers did a tremendous job. Mahmood should get credit.


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  28. #108
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    Shaheen gave a lot of credit to Azhar Mahmood, must be doing something right !


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  29. #109
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    When the bowlers were bowling badly everyone was critisizing him, so now it’s also time to give him credit for the good bowling at the latter stages of WC. Shaheen has taken 15 wickets in just 5 matches and Aamir is among top 5 wickettakers.


    Ki Mohammad (saw) sey wafa tu ney tou hum terey hain
    Yeh jahaan cheez kya hai Loh-o-Qalam tere hain

  30. #110
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    Should be sacked just like Grant Flower. Start fresh.


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  31. #111
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    I donít mind the team management getting an extension as long as Inzamam and Sarfraz are booted out.

  32. #112
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    Inzimam needs to go,


    Bowling

    fast bowler as bowling coach would be better suited Wasim Waqar poss even Zahid. Or maybe a foreigner, Streak Id prefer Waqar over Wasim as at least he's has already shown intent with two stints as head coach.

    Batting

    The Name Mohammed Yousaf, Younis Khan, misbah , graham Smith


    Spin Mushy, Graham Swan


    Fielding Steve Rickson, jonty rhodes

  33. #113
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    Wasim was caught talking to Shaheen, and a lot of people credited Shaheen's turn around to Wasim.

    In reality, a 5 minute conversation with a legend may give you a boost in morale but it does not fix what you have been doing wrong for the last 3 months.

    So Azhar must have worked with Shaheen throughout the Tournament.

    Credit where credit is due.

    However, if you look at the last few series before the world cup, we have struggled with bowling and tactics.

    I feel like azhar should be replaced but it has to be with someone more competent. Otherwise there is no point.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t mind the team management getting an extension as long as Inzamam and Sarfraz are booted out.
    Would you play Sarfraz as a player only?

    Atleast maybe try him for a few series without captaincy pressure, he may get his form back that he had in his 2 year purple patch.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    Before the world cup when Amir and other bowlers were getting smashed in the Australia and England series, everyone was bashing Azhar Mehmood.

    Now we have got 2 bowlers in the top 6 of the world cup, with 1 taking 17 wicekts and the other taking 16, while our third bowler also showed good effort only to see 9 catches be dropped off his bowling.

    Plus, we didn't had to use our 5 bowler on bench.

    So was this because of Azhar Mehmood, the world cup bowling?

    Whats the final verdict?
    Or is it bad performance because of coach, good performance because of player himself or because Waseem Akram likes to take credit.
    Wildly inconsistent, lack of any proper plans far too often. Obvious issues not being fixed, like amir still not coming close to the stumps. Needs to go

  36. #116
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    Verdict: thank you....next, next.

    The real sad part here is you have two legends of Pakistan cricket sitting in thr commentary box rather than being employed by PCB to be the bowling coaches.

  37. #117
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    I think time has come to make some changes. Azhar and Grant might not have done badly, but given the time, we did not make good progress that was expected.

    Azhar Mahmood : We were looking for Azhar to give us 2/3 good wicket taking fast bowlers, and bowlers who are specialists in yorkers and death bowling. We dearly missed these 2 areas. There were some sporadic successes, but we were not able to execute these things consistently. So I think something has not worked.

    Grant Flower : He has spent almost 5 years or so. Again we made some progress. But not much. Stats might say otherwise that average scores have improved. Strike rate percentage has also improved. However, we lost key moments in batting again and again. We lost when it mattered. Batters still fear from failures, and no break free batting happened except for few instances.

    I would still want Mickey to continue but with a new setup: few batting and bowling specialists from Australia or South Africa rather than any local.

  38. #118
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    I think time has come to make some changes. Azhar and Grant might not have done badly, but given the time, we did not make good progress that was expected.

    Azhar Mahmood : We were looking for Azhar to give us 2/3 good wicket taking fast bowlers, and bowlers who are specialists in yorkers and death bowling. We dearly missed these 2 areas. There were some sporadic successes, but we were not able to execute these things consistently. So I think something has not worked.

    Grant Flower : He has spent almost 5 years or so. Again we made some progress. But not much. Stats might say otherwise that average scores have improved. Strike rate percentage has also improved. However, we lost key moments in batting again and again. We lost when it mattered. Batters still fear from failures, and no break free batting happened except for few instances.

    I would still want Mickey to continue but with a new setup: few batting and bowling specialists from Australia or South Africa rather than any local.

  39. #119
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    Sarfraz and Mickey MUST go, need young and PLAYING Captain, we cannot have a non playing Captain. 🙄🙄🙄

    Babar or Imman are main candidates for top job.

    Azhar is doing fine job, getting should be retained, if possible. He has turn around bowling more than once in both CT and WC.

  40. #120
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    I think coaches are overrated in cricket. They're not necessary. More like advisors could be required, technical issues can be resolved back home when they're not playing and whatnot


  41. #121
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    The verdict is that if you hate him, the bowlers who returned to form in this tournament did it on their own. If you like him, all the success is down to him.
    I think he has done a good job tbh.

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by iniqbal223 View Post
    I think time has come to make some changes. Azhar and Grant might not have done badly, but given the time, we did not make good progress that was expected.

    Azhar Mahmood : We were looking for Azhar to give us 2/3 good wicket taking fast bowlers, and bowlers who are specialists in yorkers and death bowling. We dearly missed these 2 areas. There were some sporadic successes, but we were not able to execute these things consistently. So I think something has not worked.

    Grant Flower : He has spent almost 5 years or so. Again we made some progress. But not much. Stats might say otherwise that average scores have improved. Strike rate percentage has also improved. However, we lost key moments in batting again and again. We lost when it mattered. Batters still fear from failures, and no break free batting happened except for few instances.

    I would still want Mickey to continue but with a new setup: few batting and bowling specialists from Australia or South Africa rather than any local.
    Flower has the numbers to support his game. If the batting failed at crunch periods that’s down the mental fortitude of the players. He can’t do much about that.

  43. #123
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    He should be retained.

  44. #124
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    Fair to ask if we are already missing Azhar Mahmood?


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  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Fair to ask if we are already missing Azhar Mahmood?
    No way. 2 random T20s and the knives are already out. T20s are to test players anyways.


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