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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by light View Post
    I don't think most of you are understanding the point being made here and jumping up and down about fluke or not fluke. Let's assume Bangladesh wins this WC, do you think 10/10 times they will win it? Hardly. They can have good games, also opponents might have bad games, weather may play a role, etc. 9/10 times, they won't win the cup if it is repeted. Consider England in this scenerio in their current form, possibilities are high that 8-9/10 times they might win the cup.

    Same thing with PAK and CT. Peaked at the right time, other teams had bad games at the wrong time, certain players were high on confidence, etc. However, if CT was repeted 10 times, it would be highly unlikely that PAK will win it all the time. It would be in the lower end spectrum. Higher end would be england/india to name a few.

    However, win is a win, regardless of how it came. CT was rightfuly pak's trophy by beating all others.
    The whole point of playing multiple games against different opposition is to see who he most consistent team is across those matches.

    If you win 4-5 games in a row against world class opposition, by definition it cant be a fluke.

    You can fluke a match, but a tournament? If its a fair tournament across enough matches, it just means the team played to their fullest potential were able to handle the pressure better than other teams across those matches and was able to win the tournament.

    It doesnt mean said team is the best team in the world. It just means they were better for the span of the tournament.

    You cant call that a fluke.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by light View Post
    I don't think most of you are understanding the point being made here and jumping up and down about fluke or not fluke. Let's assume Bangladesh wins this WC, do you think 10/10 times they will win it? Hardly. They can have good games, also opponents might have bad games, weather may play a role, etc. 9/10 times, they won't win the cup if it is repeted. Consider England in this scenerio in their current form, possibilities are high that 8-9/10 times they might win the cup.

    Same thing with PAK and CT. Peaked at the right time, other teams had bad games at the wrong time, certain players were high on confidence, etc. However, if CT was repeted 10 times, it would be highly unlikely that PAK will win it all the time. It would be in the lower end spectrum. Higher end would be england/india to name a few.

    However, win is a win, regardless of how it came. CT was rightfuly pak's trophy by beating all others.
    Pakistan has a different history to Bangladesh, they have won no ICC tournament or even played in a final. Pakistan have had weak teams in the past but have reached finals or semi finals on a regular basis, this wont change.

    I would ignore those on here who have never played any sport, those cricketers who have and know the history of the game are never suprised if Pakistan turn up in tournaments.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As I explained in post #149, every time a non-favourite wins the World Cup it doesn't mean that it is a fluke, but when teams like India (1983), West Indies (2004) and Pakistan (2017) win tournaments, there is a significant amount of luck and freakish events involved.
    It doesnt make sense.

    Why is the luck always with Pakistan then?

    Made semis in 2011, won CT 2017, won a t20 world cup. An asia cup too if your into that sort of thing.

    Why isnt the luck ever with south africa, new zealand, bangladesh, england? Why dont freak occurences happen for them?

    Or are you saying God answers Pakistani prayers over others?

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    CT win was an one-off, BUT NOTE this is not a synonymous with the term "fluke", which implies the team was lucky to win.

    Some of you need to improve your grasp of English. If it is not beyond working proficiency (or native like mine) just don't bother until you've had your lessons. This applies especially to @Hyperion66 .
    You were lucky to have caught us on a bad day, hence a fluke.

    Now take that arrogance of yours and shove it where Sun don't shine brown sahib.

  5. #165
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    It was massive fluke.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion66 View Post
    You were lucky to have caught us on a bad day, hence a fluke.
    Why don't you expand your illogical fallacy by stating Pakistan were lucky to catch 4 teams on their bad day!? All on the trot! Was it a bad moon or something?

  7. #167
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    I think winning the 92 WC was a bigger fluke for Pakistan.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion66 View Post
    You were lucky to have caught us on a bad day, hence a fluke.

    Now take that arrogance of yours and shove it where Sun don't shine brown sahib.
    It wasnt a fluke because Pakistan didnt catch India on a bad day. Kohli made the mistake of bowling first on a very good batting pitch when he won the toss.

    India could have batted first and would have won the match. But Kohli made a mistake, and Pakistan capitalized.

    If capitalizing on a big mistake is called a fluke, then sports history needs a great deal of revision.

    Also you cant look at that match in islolation. Pakistan won 4 essentially knockout matches in a row. Cant fluke that.

  9. #169
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    I don’t think it was a fluke. We won 4 matches, 1 against England and 1 against India. We played good cricket and ended up beating teams better than us.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Why don't you expand your illogical fallacy by stating Pakistan were lucky to catch 4 teams on their bad day!? All on the trot! Was it a bad moon or something?
    Incredibly lucky against Lanka, SA choked as always, Pitch you got in Cardiff had written Abu Dhabi all over it.

  11. #171
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    Congratulations Pakistan once again on winning CT17 trophy...it was definitely one of the greatest victories in sports

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion66 View Post
    Incredibly lucky against Lanka, SA choked as always, Pitch you got in Cardiff had written Abu Dhabi all over it.
    I would like this luck again. happy to fluke it to the world cup. wouldnt mind at all if ppl keep calling it a fluke till the cows come home

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Rose View Post
    I would like this luck again. happy to fluke it to the world cup. wouldnt mind at all if ppl keep calling it a fluke till the cows come home
    Truth be told it still hurts, India was clearly the deserving team. Pak made a mockery of that win by losing as many as possible since then. Anyways you got the trophy and that's what matters I guess.

  14. #174
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    It wasn't a fluke as such the team was underrated by others and put together a run of 4 wins running into some nice form.

    Over time the fresh faces then Hasan Fakhar Babar are now the mainstays the surprise factor is no longer there the other players bounced off them in 2017 but nobody is leading from the front with seniors looking worse than rookies.

    It was an inconsistent team surprising everyone by doing well for a short period with the normal pattern soon being resumed and carried on into the WC where things are going from bad to worse and nobody in the reserves capable of changing its fortunes quickly.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Pakistan has a different history to Bangladesh, they have won no ICC tournament or even played in a final. Pakistan have had weak teams in the past but have reached finals or semi finals on a regular basis, this wont change.

    I would ignore those on here who have never played any sport, those cricketers who have and know the history of the game are never suprised if Pakistan turn up in tournaments.
    I am not sure if you understood my pov. The comment wasn't about if BD has any ICC trophy or how many PAK has, my pov was more about probability. Hence why the fluke comments comes up quite often. No victory is a fluke in my book, but probability does play a factor. That's where those betting numbers comes from.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    This is what I am attempting to explain. It is not even about luck - every team that wins a tournaments needs a bit of luck, but it is about the probability of replicating those events in the same conditions/circumstances.

    For e.g., India did get lucky at times in the 2011 World Cup, but I can say with confidence that in those subcontinent conditions, that Indian team would win the World Cup more often than not. Hence, although they got a bit lucky, their triumph wasn't a fluke. Same goes for Australia winning in 2015.
    Pretty much. NBA does it right, play 7, whoever wins 4 games first is the rightful winner. That's where probability will show properly. If indvpak CT final occured 7 times, I would bet quite alot of money that india would have been the winner. Cricket is too long to determine that, so this current format stands.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    The whole point of playing multiple games against different opposition is to see who he most consistent team is across those matches.

    If you win 4-5 games in a row against world class opposition, by definition it cant be a fluke.

    You can fluke a match, but a tournament? If its a fair tournament across enough matches, it just means the team played to their fullest potential were able to handle the pressure better than other teams across those matches and was able to win the tournament.

    It doesnt mean said team is the best team in the world. It just means they were better for the span of the tournament.

    You cant call that a fluke.
    I didn't call PAK's CT win a fluke. I said the probability of PAK repeating that all over again is very low. A win is a win. Remember Kenya at one point made it to the semi final. What do you think the probability of that was happening? VERY LOW.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by light View Post
    I didn't call PAK's CT win a fluke. I said the probability of PAK repeating that all over again is very low. A win is a win. Remember Kenya at one point made it to the semi final. What do you think the probability of that was happening? VERY LOW.
    Probability is for bookies and mathematicians.

    Probability in the context of actually winning a tournament is useless.

    Otherwise, lets just give the cup to the team with the highest probability and save ourselves sometime.

    The thing about sports is, there is no do over. Once a team wins, its irrelevant whether they would have won had the tournament started over.

    The team wins the tournament as they are the most consistent throughout a number of matches, therefore they deserve to win.

    Any talk about flukes or probabilities at that point is trying to take credit away from them for playing consistently throughout the tournament.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    Probability is for bookies and mathematicians.

    Probability in the context of actually winning a tournament is useless.

    Otherwise, lets just give the cup to the team with the highest probability and save ourselves sometime.

    The thing about sports is, there is no do over. Once a team wins, its irrelevant whether they would have won had the tournament started over.

    The team wins the tournament as they are the most consistent throughout a number of matches, therefore they deserve to win.

    Any talk about flukes or probabilities at that point is trying to take credit away from them for playing consistently throughout the tournament.
    Probability is what the percentages say but that doesn't mean the favourites always win a 1% chance is still a chance of winning and it's not guaranteed it won't win.

    In this World Cup an outsider winning is less likely than the CT because to go through teams have to win 6 matches in all likelihood and then 2 more that extra consistency is unlikely to be found in the teams with less chance of winning.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    Probability is for bookies and mathematicians.

    Probability in the context of actually winning a tournament is useless.

    Otherwise, lets just give the cup to the team with the highest probability and save ourselves sometime.

    The thing about sports is, there is no do over. Once a team wins, its irrelevant whether they would have won had the tournament started over.

    The team wins the tournament as they are the most consistent throughout a number of matches, therefore they deserve to win.

    Any talk about flukes or probabilities at that point is trying to take credit away from them for playing consistently throughout the tournament.
    Once again, you're statement has nothing to do with what I said. Read the last line of my first post. You might get your answer on what I think about pak's CT win ...

    My comment had more to do with people calling it a fluke/not fluke

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cric1234 View Post
    Probability is what the percentages say but that doesn't mean the favourites always win a 1% chance is still a chance of winning and it's not guaranteed it won't win.

    In this World Cup an outsider winning is less likely than the CT because to go through teams have to win 6 matches in all likelihood and then 2 more that extra consistency is unlikely to be found in the teams with less chance of winning.
    I get that.

    But after the tournament has been won, 2 years later, still saying if the tournament was played again Pakistan wouldnt have won is ridiculous.

    As the tournament CANT be played again.

    Its done. Pakistan won.

    Calling it a fluke or an aberration takes away from the win.

    That is my point. Any discussions on probabilities should be done before the tournament, 2 years after the tournament, all it is is sour grapes.
    Last edited by blackanhyellow; 17th June 2019 at 05:37.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    I get that.

    But after the tournament has been won, 2 years later, still saying if the tournament was played again Pakistan wouldnt have won is ridiculous.

    As the tournament CANT be played again.

    Its done. Pakistan won.

    Calling it a fluke or an aberration takes away from the win.

    That is my point. Any discussions on probabilities should be done before the tournament, 2 years after the tournament, all it is is sour grapes.
    If it was played again the chances would be similar around 10% say which means it is unlikely to be repeated that's the reason for the mercurial unpredictable cornered tigers stuff.
    It was a team who aren't perennial winners winning a major 50 over title unexpectedly and are unlikely to repeat it and didn't do it beforehand now if the team becomes more consistent in the future then the percentages of winning increase.

  23. #183
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    Compare the results between each the last 6 odis played between India Pakistan I.e since world cup 2015. It will show a pattern

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    India vs Pakistan: Former Pakistan pacer Wasim Akram went on air to admit that Pakistan’s 2017 Champions Trophy triumph was ‘fluke’. This statement comes after the Men in Blue thrashed Pakistan by nine wickets in the Asia Cup Super Four match. Akram is not the only person who is upset with the lacklustre performance of the men in Green, but voices from Pakistan have vented anger after their loss to Rohit Sharma’s India.

    Commentator and great bowler in his prime, the 52-year-old Akram spoke straight without beating the bush and accepted who is the better team. Mind you, India had defeated Pakistan in the group stage match as well. The win in the group stage was India’s best over Pakistan ever in terms of balls to spare and in the Super Four stage, the Men in Blue got their most comprehensive victory over the arch-rivals in terms of wickets.

    Speaking to Aaj Tak from Dubai, Akram said: “I played for Pakistan for 20 odd years. I never thought I would live to see this day. The way we got thrashed… one-sided games. We need to play less against the low-ranked sides. I am all promotion of the game… one off it’s fine. But going to Zimbabwe, playing five one-days, three T20s. What is Pakistan team gaining from these tours? Nothing. They go and score runs there, hit double hundreds, but when they play good bowling, good teams, they come under pressure. We need to strengthen our team and play good teams in their home.”

    Akram added: “These defeats will at least get Pakistan rid of their Champions Trophy nostalgia. There is no relevance of the Champions Trophy win which came one-and-half years ago. India’s main player Virat Kohli didn’t even come and God knows what would have happened had he been around.”

    http://www.india.com/sports/india-vs...watch-3344865/
    But he did'nt actually say 'Fluke win'...reading the above he was just frustrated at the team's display...(and rightly so).....saying Champion tournament was a fluke is diluting the performance of several players and the efforts they put in, I am Indian but frankly i admire the jussa, junoon and jazba pak players showed in the later stages of that tournament,they were the better team on the finals day....its insulting to call this 'fluke' ...move on 2017 is history....good luck to pak from an indian supporter...

  25. #185
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    Well, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka could have actually won it.

    Pakistan did not necessarily fluke the Semi final and final because that is 2 icc formatted matches with the same intensity and pressure of icc semis and finals. However only having to win 2 matches to reach the semis is a fluke

  26. #186
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    Final i would call an upset. India was no way that bad regardless of the toss decision. They were jolted after conceding 338 runs. Ashwin/Jadeja/Jadhav went for 164 runs in 20 overs in that match. In a way that loss forced India to look for other options. Kulcha happened. India gained something big from that loss.

  27. #187
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    I don't know what is the fuss and the insistence behind calling it a fluke or not. All that matters is Pakistan played well during the week, won matches against top teams on a trot and won the cup. And they are an elite team that deserve the respect of not being called a fluke win. As of us Indians, why would you still be sad or shocked about it. This loss was the best thing that happened to Indian ODI cricket, else we would never have been able to witness KulCha in action and continued with our finger spinners.
    In hindsight that win has regressed PCB by bloating their egos and making them content and satisfied and not realising that this was just papering the deep cracks underneath that will take years to fix. Unfortunately they seem to be very near sighted.

  28. #188
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    @Hyperion66, leave'em alone. Soon every win they taste once in a year will become an occasion of festival for them. Watch them celebrate their win vs Afghanistan & you will understand! True minnow mentality.

  29. #189
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    If Pakistan played 20 Champions Trophies, they would have won 1 of them. They just got lucky that the 1 win came when it did. That's why we call it a fluke. Since they had less than 1/20 chance of winning.


    Misbah, Wahab, Junaid, Root, Williamson fan.
    T20 isn't Cricket

  30. #190
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    That win gave some player free ticket to hang around as long as they could. That is the worst part of the CT win. Sure it gives bragging rights. But if you look at the larger picture, and if you go back to all the threads were created after the first beat down India gave to Pakistan you would see fans crying for overhaul. All disappeared once the CT was won. Some of the guys should have called it quits right after CT win.


    Since CT 2017 win against test playing nations (including afghanistan)

    Babar Azam 1230 runs 43.92 avge 81.40 SR
    Imam ul haq 1048 runs 47.63 avge 75.94 SR
    Fakhar Zaman 971 runs 33.48 avge 88.67 SR
    Sohaib Malik 720 runs 30.00 avge 82.47 SR
    Hafeez 640 runs 33.68 avge 89.38 SR
    Sarfraz 580 runs 29.00 avge 86.43 SR
    Haris Sohail 554 runs 50.36 avge 83.30 SR
    Imad Wasim 415 runs 46.11 avge 115.27 SR
    Asif Ali 247 runs 22.45 avge 113.82 SR


    Strike rates are poor or average is poor. Haris looks okay. Others have regressed.

  31. #191
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    Mr Akram, pakistan winning the CT17, was less of a fluke than when you won the WC in 92!

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    CT 17 wasn't a fluke. Pakistan beat 4 good teams in row to win that tournament. Consistency is not fluke.

    If Pakistan lose more matches in this WC especially against Bangladesh/Afghanistan , then you can call win against England a fluke.

    Fluke - Keyna reaching 2003 WC semi.
    Keyna got walkover against New Zealand which gave them good spot in super six. Then the beat Sri Lanka in a fluke win to reach semi's.

    Keyna in 2003 WC
    Lost to South Africa by 10 wickets
    Beat Canada by 4 wickets
    Beat New Zealand by walkover
    Beat Sri Lanka by 53 runs
    Beat Bangladesh by 32 runs
    Lost to West Indies by 142 runs
    Beat Zimbabwe by 7 wickets
    Lost to Australia by 5 wickets


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

  33. #193
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    I absolutely agree with Wasim, and I too thought it seemed like a fluke at the time.

    I didn't want to say so at time though, because it would seem like a case of sour grapes, but I watched that same team play after their CT victory and thought to myself, "Man this is an ordinary side"

  34. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    It doesnt make sense.

    Why is the luck always with Pakistan then?

    Made semis in 2011, won CT 2017, won a t20 world cup. An asia cup too if your into that sort of thing.

    Why isnt the luck ever with south africa, new zealand, bangladesh, england? Why dont freak occurences happen for them?

    Or are you saying God answers Pakistani prayers over others?
    2011 World Cup and WT20 2009 were definitely not flukes for Pakistan. Not by any measure.

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    1992 world cup was a fluke as well.

  36. #196
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    A team like Pakistan winning a tournament also devalues the prestige. We made a complete mockery of the Champions Trophy with the way we played before and after the tournament. We entered the tournament as a minnow, fluked our way to the trophy and started to play like minnows again. That is why England or India winning this World Cup would great for the ODI game. They are the top two sides and will remain the top two sides irrespective of what happens in the World Cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by light View Post
    Pretty much. NBA does it right, play 7, whoever wins 4 games first is the rightful winner. That's where probability will show properly. If indvpak CT final occured 7 times, I would bet quite alot of money that india would have been the winner. Cricket is too long to determine that, so this current format stands.
    Can we see home and way thing in Cricket as well just like Champions League?


    If you Can Believe In Something, Than why not believe In Yourself.

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    Wasim becoming a commentator is a big fluke..

  39. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARK Rafay View Post
    Can we see home and way thing in Cricket as well just like Champions League?
    would be interesting but i recon only possible with T20. 50over match is too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Why don't you expand your illogical fallacy by stating Pakistan were lucky to catch 4 teams on their bad day!? All on the trot! Was it a bad moon or something?
    In CT17, PAK really got lucky in reaching the semis based on that match they played against SRL.

    I have never seen a poorer cricket match in my life in any ICC event.

    In that match PCT was worse than they were in the 2011 WC SF. They didn't deserve to win either matches. Fortunately for PCT, the Sri Lankan team was even worse than them. So they sneaked into the SF of CT.

    From there I admit that PCT played two very good games. But they certainly didn't play good enough cricket to warrant a SF place to begin with.


  41. #201
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    Pakistan will win 2019 WC


    Yesterday is the past.Tomorrow is the future.Today is a gift.That's why it's called the "present"

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    In CT17, PAK really got lucky in reaching the semis based on that match they played against SRL.

    I have never seen a poorer cricket match in my life in any ICC event.

    In that match PCT was worse than they were in the 2011 WC SF. They didn't deserve to win either matches. Fortunately for PCT, the Sri Lankan team was even worse than them. So they sneaked into the SF of CT.

    From there I admit that PCT played two very good games. But they certainly didn't play good enough cricket to warrant a SF place to begin with.
    Again, arguments like this make no sense.

    Sri Lanka played poor and Pakistan played better which is why they won, and deserved the semi spot.

    Your argument is like saying India played poorly in mohali 2011 semi final, but Pakistan played worse because they dropped sachin 3 or 4 times, and then lost quick wickets while chasing a gettable total. So by your logic, India didnt deserve to go to the next round.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    A team like Pakistan winning a tournament also devalues the prestige. We made a complete mockery of the Champions Trophy with the way we played before and after the tournament. We entered the tournament as a minnow, fluked our way to the trophy and started to play like minnows again. That is why England or India winning this World Cup would great for the ODI game. They are the top two sides and will remain the top two sides irrespective of what happens in the World Cup.
    Sri Lanka a minnow in 1996 won the WC against all odds. India in 1983 did the same.
    Didn't that devalue the prestige of the tournament too?

  44. #204
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    Arguments like if the game was played again Pakistan would lose, hence it is a fluke, is a joke of an argument.

    If India replayed the 1983 World Cup final, India would lose 9/10 times.
    If India replayed the 2011 SF, India would lose, (SRT would not be dropped 4 times etc)
    If India replayed the 2007 World T20 final, India would have lost, Misbah would not have played that scoop.

    Ergo, India's wins above are all flukes!

    The list goes on, not just with India, but any team, in any sport.

  45. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Arguments like if the game was played again Pakistan would lose, hence it is a fluke, is a joke of an argument.

    If India replayed the 1983 World Cup final, India would lose 9/10 times.
    If India replayed the 2011 SF, India would lose, (SRT would not be dropped 4 times etc)
    If India replayed the 2007 World T20 final, India would have lost, Misbah would not have played that scoop.

    Ergo, India's wins above are all flukes!

    The list goes on, not just with India, but any team, in any sport.
    People will come at you with “India has won every game against Pakistan in the World Cup”.

    Anyone with little sense in cricket and who isn’t attention seeking mohaly ki aunty would know it wasn’t fluke.

  46. #206
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    Not even SA celebrated CT win this much lol. They never refer to CT win. Their only goal is the world cup.

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Arguments like if the game was played again Pakistan would lose, hence it is a fluke, is a joke of an argument.

    If India replayed the 1983 World Cup final, India would lose 9/10 times.
    If India replayed the 2011 SF, India would lose, (SRT would not be dropped 4 times etc)
    If India replayed the 2007 World T20 final, India would have lost, Misbah would not have played that scoop.

    Ergo, India's wins above are all flukes!

    The list goes on, not just with India, but any team, in any sport.
    Alan Donald would have definitely taken a run given a second chance

  48. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnaveen1980 View Post
    Not even SA celebrated CT win this much lol. They never refer to CT win. Their only goal is the world cup.
    SA did not beat their arch rivals, and SA's opponents weren't giving it large before the final.

  49. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    People will come at you with “India has won every game against Pakistan in the World Cup”.

    Anyone with little sense in cricket and who isn’t attention seeking mohaly ki aunty would know it wasn’t fluke.
    Indeed, the odds of 7-0, is the equivalent of 2^7, or simply put, 1 in 128, which is a fluke!

  50. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    India vs Pakistan: Former Pakistan pacer Wasim Akram went on air to admit that Pakistan’s 2017 Champions Trophy triumph was ‘fluke’. This statement comes after the Men in Blue thrashed Pakistan by nine wickets in the Asia Cup Super Four match. Akram is not the only person who is upset with the lacklustre performance of the men in Green, but voices from Pakistan have vented anger after their loss to Rohit Sharma’s India.

    Commentator and great bowler in his prime, the 52-year-old Akram spoke straight without beating the bush and accepted who is the better team. Mind you, India had defeated Pakistan in the group stage match as well. The win in the group stage was India’s best over Pakistan ever in terms of balls to spare and in the Super Four stage, the Men in Blue got their most comprehensive victory over the arch-rivals in terms of wickets.

    Speaking to Aaj Tak from Dubai, Akram said: “I played for Pakistan for 20 odd years. I never thought I would live to see this day. The way we got thrashed… one-sided games. We need to play less against the low-ranked sides. I am all promotion of the game… one off it’s fine. But going to Zimbabwe, playing five one-days, three T20s. What is Pakistan team gaining from these tours? Nothing. They go and score runs there, hit double hundreds, but when they play good bowling, good teams, they come under pressure. We need to strengthen our team and play good teams in their home.”

    Akram added: “These defeats will at least get Pakistan rid of their Champions Trophy nostalgia. There is no relevance of the Champions Trophy win which came one-and-half years ago. India’s main player Virat Kohli didn’t even come and God knows what would have happened had he been around.”

    http://www.india.com/sports/india-vs...watch-3344865/
    As huge fan of Wasim Akram, I am absolutely gutted that he would make this statement. Shame on him to belittle the achievements of the Pakistani team that actually won the ICCT. Looks like his passion has dulled.

    What day is he talking about? The day when Pakistan didn't qualify for the next stage just like in 2003? Or the day we got embarrassed by Australia in 1999? It's ok to see lesser commentators and some media personalities and fans wallowing in self-pity but now Akram too.
    Last edited by zulfiqar; 18th June 2019 at 06:31.


    Have the players going forward, just need coaching&professionalism! #1 priority: fielding

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    I find these chants of Pakistan CT win to be extremely unsporting. Yes Pakistan is a poor ODI and T-20 side compared to the Top 5 teams of the world but that CT win was no fluke, it was similar to India's 1983 WC win but you don't see fair people going on and on about that achievement being a fluke and that India didn't deserve it.
    I know right? It's even worse when it's coming from our own legends!


    Have the players going forward, just need coaching&professionalism! #1 priority: fielding

  52. #212
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    Pakistan was also helped by the ongoing conflict between Kohli and Kumble at the same time and soon after that Kumble was made to resign. It's still hard to believe the way India lost given their status as an ODI team. Did Kohli use this opportunity to make a point against Kumble?

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    SA did not beat their arch rivals, and SA's opponents weren't giving it large before the final.
    I think that CT win influenced your selection and lot of other things so much. So many got a free pass. Even after a loss (twice) in Asia cup that CT final was used as a tool to excuse poor performance of players. OH yea. The celebration was way over the top that kinda hurt Pakistan in the long run. Even now when the coach is criticized, some use CT win to defend him. If you look at either side of CT win Pak performances were poor.You just have to go back to old threads that were created right after their first loss to India in CT you will see a different picture. India lost badly to the mighty west indies after 1983 world cup. Kapil was fired within one year. 1984 Sunny Gavaskar was the captain. Nobody was saying "he won the world cup" for us so he should continue as captain. Now reality has kicked in. Should have kicked in right after their failure to reach Asia cup final and almost a loss to Afghanistan. Didn't happen. Then series of losses. Probably Akram was fed up with this CT gloating and poor decisions that were made based on that.

  54. #214
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    After india won the 83 world cup, they won the 85 Benson and Hedges trophy which was a world championship involving all teams and proved to the world that 83 win was not a one off or fluke...
    Pakistan on the other hand has lost miserably since CT proving again it was a fluke..so Akram Shoaib are all correct here..

  55. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxfordchamp View Post
    After india won the 83 world cup, they won the 85 Benson and Hedges trophy which was a world championship involving all teams and proved to the world that 83 win was not a one off or fluke...
    Pakistan on the other hand has lost miserably since CT proving again it was a fluke..so Akram Shoaib are all correct here..

    Those days selection committee was ruthless. Kapil was dropped for one reckless shot in the delhi test. Delhi test also saw the demise of Sandeep patil. Sandeep patil's last 4 innings 127, 20, 30, 41. They wanted to send a message and selected the rookie player Azharuddin in place of him. He scored 3 centuries and a fifty in his first 3 tests. He never looked back.

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    CT win was an one-off, BUT NOTE this is not a synonymous with the term "fluke", which implies the team was lucky to win.

    Some of you need to improve your grasp of English. If it is not beyond working proficiency (or native like mine) just don't bother until you've had your lessons. This applies especially to @Hyperion66 .
    Fluke means an unlikely chance occurrence. For Pakistan, to win against India in a tournament like CT, especially in an elimination match absolutely is an unlikely chance occurrence given their record.

    Are you sure about being a native English speaker? Tottenham native aren't ya?

  57. #217
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    Well, had we not won the CT, a lot of the dead wood in our team would have been cleaned up a while ago.

  58. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Well, had we not won the CT, a lot of the dead wood in our team would have been cleaned up a while ago.
    You won the tournament. So it was totally worth it. You could still have cleared out the dead woods who were on their last legs.

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Pakistan beat SL, SA, Eng and demolished India to win the CT. Look up the definition and dont copy the nonsense from other posters.
    I wouldn't call it a fluke, I would compare it with Sri Lankas 96 world cup win. They raised their game, luck and conditions favoured them and they beat way stronger teams

  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
    Pakistan was also helped by the ongoing conflict between Kohli and Kumble at the same time and soon after that Kumble was made to resign. It's still hard to believe the way India lost given their status as an ODI team. Did Kohli use this opportunity to make a point against Kumble?
    Hell, no! He might have been clueless in choosing to field first in the final but knowing him, he won't ever under perform just to undermine someone he allegedly didn't like!

  61. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP2011 View Post
    Hell, no! He might have been clueless in choosing to field first in the final but knowing him, he won't ever under perform just to undermine someone he allegedly didn't like!
    If they had won that tournament, it would have been hard for BCCI to remove Kumble, on Kohli's demands. I think Kohli was desperate to have him removed and a match against Pakistan came at the right time.

  62. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by urnotserious View Post
    Fluke means an unlikely chance occurrence. For Pakistan, to win against India in a tournament like CT, especially in an elimination match absolutely is an unlikely chance occurrence given their record.

    Are you sure about being a native English speaker? Tottenham native aren't ya?
    Another poster in need of English classes. Fluke implies more luck than skill as per Oxford Dictionary's definition:

    Name:  Capture 4.JPG
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  63. #223
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    No way CT win was a fluke, Pakistan earned it.

  64. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Another poster in need of English classes. Fluke implies more luck than skill as per Oxford Dictionary's definition:

    Name:  Capture 4.JPG
Views: 211
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    Boom.

    Love it when insults backfire.

  65. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    I wouldn't call it a fluke, I would compare it with Sri Lankas 96 world cup win. They raised their game, luck and conditions favoured them and they beat way stronger teams
    This!

  66. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Well, had we not won the CT, a lot of the dead wood in our team would have been cleaned up a while ago.
    Nothing would have happ.

    PCB needs to become professional or Pak cricket will die.

    The mentality of players and management is pathetic.

    Too much jazba...too little brains.

  67. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Another poster in need of English classes. Fluke implies more luck than skill as per Oxford Dictionary's definition:

    Name:  Capture 4.JPG
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    Right, that poster is you. https://www.google.com/search?safe=o...31.CtDofk9HHxM

    And yes it was more luck than skill when it comes to Pakistan as proven by the game before and the games since.

  68. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by urnotserious View Post
    Right, that poster is you. https://www.google.com/search?safe=o...31.CtDofk9HHxM

    And yes it was more luck than skill when it comes to Pakistan as proven by the game before and the games since.
    The skill-set shown by Pakistan during the CT was not a fluke. Hasan Ali was the best bowler in the tournament, as evident by his MOTM award. The best batsman in the tournament was Fakhar Azam with his flurry of 50+ clutch knocks. The best bowler in the final was Amir, who dismissed the best top 3 in the world with proficiency, not out of fortune, as you suggest.

    Their accomplishments were not "more luck than skill", so for your sake, I would strongly advise not making a fool out of yourself.

    As you don't seem to understand the context of my original post on this thread - FYI, I'm not here to cheerlead the Pakistan team. We all know they are an incompetent and mediocre team. My issue is with the use of the word: "fluke", which is not an accurate term to describe Pakistan's successful CT campaign. I would refer to it as an "one-off" or an "isolated event". None of these terms are synonymous with the word beginning in F and ending in E. Best to stick to the original plan (proposed in my previous post) with the requirement of English classes.
    Last edited by topspin; 18th June 2019 at 19:26.

  69. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    The skill-set shown by Pakistan during the CT was not a fluke. Hasan Ali was the best bowler in the tournament, as evident by his MOTM award. The best batsman in the tournament was Fakhar Azam with his flurry of 50+ clutch knocks. The best bowler in the final was Amir, who dismissed the best top 3 in the world with proficiency, not out of fortune, as you suggest.

    Their accomplishments were not "more luck than skill", so for your sake, I would strongly advise not making a fool out of yourself.

    As you don't seem to understand the context of my original post on this thread - FYI, I'm not here to cheerlead the Pakistan team. We all know they are an incompetent and mediocre team. My issue is with the use of the word: "fluke", which is not an accurate term to describe Pakistan's successful CT campaign. I would refer to it as an "one-off" or an "isolated event". None of these terms are synonymous with the word beginning in F and ending in E. Best to stick to the original plan (proposed in my previous post) with the requirement of English classes.
    Superb points.

    The naysayers cannot explain if Pakistan's win was a fluke, how comes luck did not favour the other teams? As someone pointed out, God only answers the prayers of Pakistan.

  70. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Superb points.

    The naysayers cannot explain if Pakistan's win was a fluke, how comes luck did not favour the other teams? As someone pointed out, God only answers the prayers of Pakistan.
    Exactly, an underdog beating superior opposition does not mean they were lucky. It seems a few cricket fans don't understand how to define a fluke. Forget what Wasim Akram says, he's just jumping on the Indian bandwagon. You would never hear the likes of Nasser Hussain and the Cambridge educated Michael Atherton with sound English, imply Pakistan were fortunate to have won the tournament.

  71. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Indeed, the odds of 7-0, is the equivalent of 2^7, or simply put, 1 in 128, which is a fluke!
    How does the odd of 7-0 translate to 2^7? Clearly you don't understand the fundamentals of probability.

  72. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    How does the odd of 7-0 translate to 2^7? Clearly you don't understand the fundamentals of probability.
    OMG.

    Base odds of winning an ODI match are 1 in 2.

    Winning 1 match is 1 in 2
    Winning 2 matches in a row is 1 in 4
    Winning 3 matches in a row is 1 in 8

    and so on.

    http://onlinestatbook.com/2/probability/basic.html

  73. #233
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    Sri Lanka a minnow in 1996 won the WC against all odds. India in 1983 did the same.
    Didn't that devalue the prestige of the tournament too? - srilanka progressed after 1996 world cup, india won the world championship in 1985, but what is pakistan's record lost a test series against new Zealand in home after many years, since 90s no team has smashed new Zealand like pakistan did to them, see the odi head to head records between these 2 teams since 2014 its pathetic, its the same with australia, england, south africa & india, pakistan's chams 2017 win is no different to wi chams 2004 win, see their recent performance against bangladesh, so champions trophy is a fluke only.

  74. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Exactly, an underdog beating superior opposition does not mean they were lucky. It seems a few cricket fans don't understand how to define a fluke. Forget what Wasim Akram says, he's just jumping on the Indian bandwagon. You would never hear the likes of Nasser Hussain and the Cambridge educated Michael Atherton with sound English, imply Pakistan were fortunate to have won the tournament.
    India- Pakistan encounters since last world cup.

    WC2015 match lost by approx 70 odd runs
    CT17 league match lost by approx 90 odd runs
    CT17 the sole win ( fluke in other words).
    Asia cup match 1 : Lost bt 8 wkts
    Asia cup match 2 : lost by 9 wickets (sole wicket to fall was a runout)
    WC2019 league game : lost by 50 odd runs

    Trend or pattern shows fluke.
    Naseer Hussain and Artherton do not call it fluke...the call it unpredictable team ( a sugar coated word for "Inconsistent" or "Unreliable"). British polite gentleman tend to use sugar coated word..for example instead of saying "He was fired from the job"..they will say "He decided to move on".

  75. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mp812 View Post
    India- Pakistan encounters since last world cup.

    WC2015 match lost by approx 70 odd runs
    CT17 league match lost by approx 90 odd runs
    CT17 the sole win ( fluke in other words).
    Asia cup match 1 : Lost bt 8 wkts
    Asia cup match 2 : lost by 9 wickets (sole wicket to fall was a runout)
    WC2019 league game : lost by 50 odd runs

    Trend or pattern shows fluke.
    Naseer Hussain and Artherton do not call it fluke...the call it unpredictable team ( a sugar coated word for "Inconsistent" or "Unreliable"). British polite gentleman tend to use sugar coated word..for example instead of saying "He was fired from the job"..they will say "He decided to move on".
    By this logic Bangladesh wins in the current world cups have been flukes vs WI and SA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    By this logic Bangladesh wins in the current world cups have been flukes vs WI and SA.
    BD has defeated WI 5 times in last 5 encounters. So that aint fluke based on trend. But SA well one might call it fluke because it happened on an extremely bad day for SA and BD had extremely good day on same day. Something similar happened in CT17 final. So fluke fluke and fluke

  77. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mp812 View Post
    BD has defeated WI 5 times in last 5 encounters. So that aint fluke based on trend. But SA well one might call it fluke because it happened on an extremely bad day for SA and BD had extremely good day on same day. Something similar happened in CT17 final. So fluke fluke and fluke
    So BD defeated WI 5 times in 5 previous encounters, but not 5 times on the trot in the WC/CT. If you are going to use stats outside of the WC/CT to prove yesterday's win was not a fluke, then it only strengthens the argument that Pakistan's CT17 win was not a fluke based on over all head to head stats.

  78. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnaveen1980 View Post
    Not even SA celebrated CT win this much lol. They never refer to CT win. Their only goal is the world cup.
    Same with WI. They won CT plus went on to win two T20 cup. If they qualify for Semis, I can see them doing something powerful this world cup too. They were unlucky against Aus and RSA.

  79. #239
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    I wonder why flukes like these never happen to teams like BD, ENG, SA or NZ. Fluked in 92, fluked in 09, fluked in 17.


    Mein inko rolaonga

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    @topspin
    That CT win wasn’t a fluke, I agree. But some of the performances that lead to that win were far from convincing and ‘good fortune’ definitely was a factor in it. They somehow got the job done, despite not being the strongest team in the tournament. So it wasn’t a very popular victory. A bit like Italy’s win in 2006. So the ‘fluke’ thing is not a technical argument like you think it is. It’s in the minds of some people. That’s how they perceive that victory. So you posting screenshots from a dictionary page won’t change anything because it has nothing to do with being a non-native speaker.


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