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  1. #1
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    What is morality without a belief in God?

    Well that is the question, discuss.

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    In Islam nothing is inherently good or evil Unless Allah has said it is so.

    Even if we observe different society, people have different Views on what is good and what is bad.

    So we don't derive our morality on societies beleifs but From the Quran.

  3. #3
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    Moral values are a product of
    socialization.Before the birth of civilization,when people didn't have any idea of God,people followed a code of ethics.

    I believe that belief in religion-any religion-does strengthen moral values if one follows it religiously.Having said that,religious people,especially Mullahs,frequently violate ethical values.They indulge in illegitimate relations;they humiliate women;and they incite people to violence.
    Last edited by syed abbas; 29th September 2018 at 22:30.

  4. #4
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    I don’t need religious texts to tell me what’s right and wrong. I am old and intelligent enough to decide on my own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    In Islam nothing is inherently good or evil Unless Allah has said it is so.

    Even if we observe different society, people have different Views on what is good and what is bad.

    So we don't derive our morality on societies beleifs but From the Quran.
    Very good point. Allah swt is the judge of morality, and He is the one who defines it.

  6. #6
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    Frankly, it's kind of insulting to think you need the fear of some supreme being in your heart to know and do right instead of wrong.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    In Islam nothing is inherently good or evil Unless Allah has said it is so.

    Even if we observe different society, people have different Views on what is good and what is bad.

    So we don't derive our morality on societies beleifs but From the Quran.
    This argument leads to the conclusion that if a person does not believe in the supernatural (which is necessary for belief in God) then that person is immoral.

    It is illogical to make belief in the supernatural a prerequisite for being moral.

  8. #8
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    Morality without belief in God is called Humanity!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    This argument leads to the conclusion that if a person does not believe in the supernatural (which is necessary for belief in God) then that person is immoral.

    It is illogical to make belief in the supernatural a prerequisite for being moral.
    There are people who believe in God but still carry out immoral acts.

    But what you believe to be moral, may not be the same as another person's belief of being moral.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by barah_admi View Post
    Well that is the question, discuss.

    A locally agreed set of rules. Same as belief in God.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Third_Umpire View Post
    Frankly, it's kind of insulting to think you need the fear of some supreme being in your heart to know and do right instead of wrong.
    You are right.. but how would we know without Allah telling us what is right and what is wrong ?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    A locally agreed set of rules. Same as belief in God.
    Is morality local or universal ? Do things become right or wrong based on local perceptions of morality?

  13. #13
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    Firstly, belief in god degrades my humanity or morality.

    If morality/humanity can only come with a belief in god, then the act of kindness one performs, was done either due to fear of god, or hoping that god will reward will the one performing it. Whereas, if an atheist performed that act of kindness, that person did it out of nothing but love and respect. There were no ulterior motives related to god, behind that act of kindness.

    Secondly, if one studies laws/rules of morality in religion, they are all nearly the same in all religions. Do not kill someone else, do not lie etc. Why? Because, they are actually a good set of rules that the human race has arrived had after tens of thousands of years of our existence.

    For instance - Killing another human being is a crime. Why? Well, If we all started killing each other, then the human race will die out very soon. So, due to evolution, we have realised that killing each other harms the human race and thus it is only logical to stop it.

    Thus, in the end, the rules of religion are a set of rules that have been plagiarised from human logic which has developed due to evolution, and termed as religion.
    Last edited by Sidilicious; 30th September 2018 at 08:08.

  14. #14
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    Pointless thread. Morality isn't a trait exclusive to theists, there is no connection here.

  15. #15
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    Morality is not really a thing if you ask me. If it is, it is infinitely malleable. For example, when state sanctions the killings, the killers become heroes. When a common man kills, he’s a murderer. When a smaller state support mass murdering organisation, that state becomes a terrorist state. But when a country directly takes part in mass murder, a.k.a war, everything is justified and glorified for centuries. Our morality is driven from our tribalistic tendencies. Believing in god as a navigational scale of morality is also part of that package. So in the end, morality is a tool for all of us to justify our individual and collective achievements and failures.
    Last edited by Angrez Pakistani; 30th September 2018 at 09:42.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post

    For instance - Killing another human being is a crime. Why? Well, If we all started killing each other, then the human race will die out very soon. So, due to evolution, we have realised that killing each other harms the human race and thus it is only logical to stop it.
    .
    But killing another human being is not always a crime.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    Is morality local or universal ? Do things become right or wrong based on local perceptions of morality?
    Local variations exists, though everyone seems to have accepted the idea that is is good to treat people they way you would like them to treat you.

  18. #18
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    There is no such thing as morality. The Crusades were 'moral' as per the Christians. Jihad is 'moral' as per Muslims.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Local variations exists, though everyone seems to have accepted the idea that is is good to treat people they way you would like them to treat you.
    But this definition is not a logically defensible position.

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    Which God though, mine or yours?


    Tazimi Sirdar

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    I don’t need religious texts to tell me what’s right and wrong. I am old and intelligent enough to decide on my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Third_Umpire View Post
    Frankly, it's kind of insulting to think you need the fear of some supreme being in your heart to know and do right instead of wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderwoman View Post
    Morality without belief in God is called Humanity!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    A locally agreed set of rules. Same as belief in God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    There is no such thing as morality. The Crusades were 'moral' as per the Christians. Jihad is 'moral' as per Muslims.
    People can decide but does this mean they are right?

    If we only live once and are here for a very short time, why stop at anything? If there are no consequences, why are the below wrong if they can benefit me?

    Murder
    Theft

    Saying we know what is moral without explaining means little.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderwoman View Post
    Morality without belief in God is called Humanity!
    But what exactly is humanity . Is there any book , guidelines for it ? Or does each person has right to define Humanity on its own in all aspects of life and society ?

  23. #23
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    Morality is relative. What was accepted hundreds of years ago as moral may not hold true today.

    If you ask the question what is morality without god, then I'll ask this, has God been changing his mind since morality itself is changing?

  24. #24
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    IMO morality is just a set of rules put in place for societies to co exist. These rules were created and built upon by societies themselves over thousands of years. If basic rules are not abided by then a society cannot exist. For example sleeping with another mans woman or stealing would cause chaos, and our animal instincts would cause us to retaliate (think anarchy). So it is part of our evolution to play within the basic rules of morality (think 10 commandments) so that society can thrive and humanity can survive.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    People can decide but does this mean they are right?

    If we only live once and are here for a very short time, why stop at anything? If there are no consequences, why are the below wrong if they can benefit me?

    Murder
    Theft

    Saying we know what is moral without explaining means little.
    I can't believe you need religion to tell you what's right and what's wrong. Do you not know that murder and theft are wrong? Why do you need religion to verify this belief?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    Morality is relative. What was accepted hundreds of years ago as moral may not hold true today.

    If you ask the question what is morality without god, then I'll ask this, has God been changing his mind since morality itself is changing?
    Interesting point brought up and the main idea put forward by atheists on morality, namely that it is based upon society, time and place. So moral values change, what is right and wrong also changes.

    You have then confused it with God, I'm not quite sure why. The values of Islam for example, have stayed the same across 14 centuries and the basic moral framework is exactly the same. In fact, the same can go for any Abrahamic religion, regardless of whether or not someone practices it.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    There is no such thing as morality. The Crusades were 'moral' as per the Christians. Jihad is 'moral' as per Muslims.
    Nothing to do with the overall question.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by barah_admi View Post
    Nothing to do with the overall question.
    It was a silly question to begin with

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    People can decide but does this mean they are right?

    If we only live once and are here for a very short time, why stop at anything? If there are no consequences, why are the below wrong if they can benefit me?

    Murder
    Theft

    Saying we know what is moral without explaining means little.
    Murder, rape and theft are not inherently immoral. Only God decides the morality.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by barah_admi View Post
    Interesting point brought up and the main idea put forward by atheists on morality, namely that it is based upon society, time and place. So moral values change, what is right and wrong also changes.

    You have then confused it with God, I'm not quite sure why. The values of Islam for example, have stayed the same across 14 centuries and the basic moral framework is exactly the same. In fact, the same can go for any Abrahamic religion, regardless of whether or not someone practices it.
    Even with Islam, the moral framework has evolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    Murder, rape and theft are not inherently immoral. Only God decides the morality.
    or the fact that you have some common sense. Religious people scare me really, suppose if some day you wake up and find out that God didn't exist. Would you go on a murder and rape spree? Obviously you wouldn't. It's not religion defining your morals. It's your own humanity and sense of civility.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    or the fact that you have some common sense. Religious people scare me really, suppose if some day you wake up and find out that God didn't exist. Would you go on a murder and rape spree? Obviously you wouldn't. It's not religion defining your morals. It's your own humanity and sense of civility.
    "own humanity and sense of civility" are very generic, abstract terms. They don't stand any objective moral chance.. which is only possible with the help of Allah swt.. (Allah is just the name one calls God).

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    "own humanity and sense of civility" are very generic, abstract terms. They don't stand any objective moral chance.. which is only possible with the help of Allah swt.. (Allah is just the name one calls God).
    I'm curious. You didn't answer my question. If, let's suppose, you wake up one day and find out religion is a lie, would you go on a murder and rape spree? Or if say you weren't a believer and were an atheist, is that what you would do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    I'm curious. You didn't answer my question. If, let's suppose, you wake up one day and find out religion is a lie, would you go on a murder and rape spree? Or if say you weren't a believer and were an atheist, is that what you would do?
    Soldiers are hailed as heroes for killing while laymen are vilified as criminals for the same thing. Right and wrong is decided by Power, and God being the Almighty takes on that mantle. The atheist looks to the state, hence China or Stalin's Russia where religion was seen as a challenge to the state's authority and millions of religious people were killed

  35. #35
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    Morality is simply the non-physical/non-biological, and group-wise, side of human evolution.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    I'm curious. You didn't answer my question. If, let's suppose, you wake up one day and find out religion is a lie, would you go on a murder and rape spree? Or if say you weren't a believer and were an atheist, is that what you would do?
    That is a big if.

  37. #37
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    Why do we need the concept of God to have morality?

    Does it take a miracle ethics book from God to tell us that Killing others, harming, raping, pillaging, enslaving, cheating is wrong? Any sane mind would know all those things are wrong.

    If someone dares to do all the above mentioned things, there is law, police to handle it.

    Religion/God worked as moral and ethical police centuries ago.

    Just because you do not believe in God, doesn't make any of the non-believers the above all mentioned.

    Also each religion differs from its morals. The concept of God and morals vary a lot from religion to religion.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    That is a big if.
    If that "big if" is true, then would go on a rampage and killing spree after that? I can bet you will not.

  39. #39
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    A farce.

    Non-religious people have no morality of their own but what they took from religious people around them or before them. Even this morality is twisted by them at their own convenience. So they can pick and choose as they please. Hence, non-religious people have a greater tendency than truly religious people to be untrustworthy and sometimes dangerous. This, because they arent bound by any strict moral codes but are generally guided by self-interests, principle of self-preservation, individualism and progress at any cost.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    If that "big if" is true, then would go on a rampage and killing spree after that? I can bet you will not.
    I think I am prone to hurting others..I like non-veg food which involves killing animals.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    A farce.

    Non-religious people have no morality of their own but what they took from religious people around them or before them. Even this morality is twisted by them at their own convenience. So they can pick and choose as they please. Hence, non-religious people have a greater tendency than truly religious people to be untrustworthy and sometimes dangerous. This, because they arent bound by any strict moral codes but are generally guided by self-interests, principle of self-preservation, individualism and progress at any cost.
    I Agree. But the same, for most part, is true for religious people as well.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    I can't believe you need religion to tell you what's right and what's wrong. Do you not know that murder and theft are wrong? Why do you need religion to verify this belief?
    Why are they wrong? Care to explain?

    If I can get away with it without any consequences and it benefits me in some way, it's fine then isnt it?

    If you had wealth and I didnt but I can come and take it from you, why shouldn't I?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    People can decide but does this mean they are right?

    If we only live once and are here for a very short time, why stop at anything? If there are no consequences, why are the below wrong if they can benefit me?

    Murder
    Theft
    Because society will fall apart in no time if there are no sanctions.

    Probably the beginning of morality was the old animistic belief systems where the hunters would pray to the spirits of the prey animals, to thank them and apologise. Hence we learned respect for each other too.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    A farce.

    Non-religious people have no morality of their own but what they took from religious people around them or before them. Even this morality is twisted by them at their own convenience. So they can pick and choose as they please. Hence, non-religious people have a greater tendency than truly religious people to be untrustworthy and sometimes dangerous. This, because they arent bound by any strict moral codes but are generally guided by self-interests, principle of self-preservation, individualism and progress at any cost.
    I wholly disagree. I have n strict moral code yet am motivated to be kind, by feelings of love and fundamental respect for others. Not self interest or self preservation, and progress at any cost is meaningless to me.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Because society will fall apart in no time if there are no sanctions.

    Probably the beginning of morality was the old animistic belief systems where the hunters would pray to the spirits of the prey animals, to thank them and apologise. Hence we learned respect for each other too.
    So? How is this important to me? All I care about is my life and to get the best out of it in any way I can. Im only here for a short time and since there is no God, no issues when I go either. Survival of the fittest or the greediest.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    So? How is this important to me? All I care about is my life and to get the best out of it in any way I can. Im only here for a short time and since there is no God, no issues when I go either. Survival of the fittest or the greediest.
    You seem to stereotype atheists as selfish people, in some cases this is true - but it isn’t at all the case for many atheists, who find enough motivation to behave themselves in not wanting to harm others.

    Remember that there are many self-absorbed and power-hungry religious people out there as well.

    I don’t really find a strong correlation between religious beliefs and a good or bad moral code. I don’t think there is any evidence for this around the world.

    Morality more depends on what kind of “person” you are, not whether you believe in God or not.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    You seem to stereotype atheists as selfish people, in some cases this is true - but it isn’t at all the case for many atheists, who find enough motivation to behave themselves in not wanting to harm others.

    Remember that there are many self-absorbed and power-hungry religious people out there as well.

    I don’t really find a strong correlation between religious beliefs and a good or bad moral code. I don’t think there is any evidence for this around the world.

    Morality more depends on what kind of “person” you are, not whether you believe in God or not.

    I think you have the wrong end of the stick here James. My questions are open to anyone atheists, agnostics or religious people.

    Ill try to explain. Morals differ from people to people. Who am I to tell a man living in a jungle who is starving to death he shouldn't murder another who he can take food to survive? If we are mere random life beings, coming to this planet by chance, shouldn;t we do whatever we please or whatever benefits us? If we can get away with and have nobody to answer to in this life or after death, whats stopping us?

    The only answer I have received is society decides on what is morally right or wrong but this is not true at all. In some societies homosexuality is immoral and in others it's not. This is just one example. So who is right?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    So? How is this important to me? All I care about is my life and to get the best out of it in any way I can. Im only here for a short time and since there is no God, no issues when I go either. Survival of the fittest or the greediest.
    Perhaps it’s a difficult concept to comprehend, but you and I are both part of the society. If you don’t see the long term ramifications, then you are not a religious man, nor a godless man, but an imbecile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrez Pakistani View Post
    Perhaps it’s a difficult concept to comprehend, but you and I are both part of the society. If you don’t see the long term ramifications, then you are not a religious man, nor a godless man, but an imbecile.
    Or perhaps you are too slow to understand Im playing devils advocate? How does the long term ramifications have anything to do with me? If I can do what I like to make my short life here better, why not? Because society says it's immoral? Try to understand the discussion im trying to generate or go and help society by picking up litter or something.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    A farce.

    Non-religious people have no morality of their own but what they took from religious people around them or before them. Even this morality is twisted by them at their own convenience. So they can pick and choose as they please. Hence, non-religious people have a greater tendency than truly religious people to be untrustworthy and sometimes dangerous. This, because they arent bound by any strict moral codes but are generally guided by self-interests, principle of self-preservation, individualism and progress at any cost.
    Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg are all idiots and have no morals. Especially Bill Gates who donates billions to charity.

    Good to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    I think I am prone to hurting others..I like non-veg food which involves killing animals.
    If religious morals are the only thing stopping you from hurting others, you need to visit a psychologist.

    Killing animals for food does not make one cruel and immoral. Again, morality is different in different parts of the world. Just goes to show it is all man made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Or perhaps you are too slow to understand Im playing devils advocate? How does the long term ramifications have anything to do with me? If I can do what I like to make my short life here better, why not? Because society says it's immoral? Try to understand the discussion im trying to generate or go and help society by picking up litter or something.
    You are just proving my point!

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    My relatively obvious conclusion is that there is no difference between the religious people, atheists and agnostics when it comes to morality. Atheists navigate their morality through a larger public discourse within the societies in which they socialise. Agnostics have the similar tendencies when it comes to morality. Religious people on the other hand are slightly, but not drastically, different from atheists and agnostics when it comes to morality. Their morality is also informed by a larger social discourse around them, however their tendency is to project their morality on their religions. For example, the Christians justified the system slavery by using the same biblical verses as the opponents of slavery used to deligitimise slavery. Similarly, Muslims have justified violence through quoting Quranic verses and the other Muslims have chosen the path of peace by giving references of Quran. Hindus have defended cast system for more than a millennia and they are now using Hinduism to deligetimise the cast system. The fact of the matter is that it’s the societal discourse that shape our morality and moral values on which we project our religious beliefs. Morality is infinitely malleable and so are the religious beliefs. The fact is that it is we who use religion and God to legitimise and further our morality and self interests.
    Last edited by Angrez Pakistani; 1st October 2018 at 20:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    So? How is this important to me? All I care about is my life and to get the best out of it in any way I can. Im only here for a short time and since there is no God, no issues when I go either. Survival of the fittest or the greediest.
    What you describe is not atheism, but nihilism. Or psychopathy. You will be expelled by your tribe in all likelihood.

    An atheist can hold deep value in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What you describe is not atheism, but nihilism. Or psychopathy. You will be expelled by your tribe in all likelihood.

    An atheist can hold deep value in life.
    Fair point Robert but I would say not all tribes hold the same moral values esp when it comes to murder. There are tribes who are ok with killing someone who are strangers. Then there is also the death penalty and even in societies such as the UK where it has been abolished millions felt it morally fine for the UK to bomb and kill people in Iraq because of a perceived threat.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    If religious morals are the only thing stopping you from hurting others, you need to visit a psychologist.

    Killing animals for food does not make one cruel and immoral. Again, morality is different in different parts of the world. Just goes to show it is all man made.
    How exactly ? For my food I can kill animals, and it would not make me immoral.. but for money if I kill a human, it would make me immoral ?

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    It amuses me to see Muslim brothers and sisters bending over backwards to justify the Islamic morality to Atheistic standard.

    Do we not trust Allah swt enough to explain to us what is moral and what is not ? How can a random atheist on the street tell us about morality which Allah swt could not ?

    Think for a moment.. once we start "reinterpreting" Allah swt's message, is our purpose to understand what He wanted to convey, or is our purpose to make Him say what is acceptable to our Atheist friends ?

    The answer to this subtle question will define how good a Muslim you are and how strong your imaan is.

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    Morals have nothing to do with religion. We know many religious people from all religions who pray god 24/7 and have zero moral values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I think you have the wrong end of the stick here James. My questions are open to anyone atheists, agnostics or religious people.

    Ill try to explain. Morals differ from people to people. Who am I to tell a man living in a jungle who is starving to death he shouldn't murder another who he can take food to survive? If we are mere random life beings, coming to this planet by chance, shouldn;t we do whatever we please or whatever benefits us? If we can get away with and have nobody to answer to in this life or after death, whats stopping us?

    The only answer I have received is society decides on what is morally right or wrong but this is not true at all. In some societies homosexuality is immoral and in others it's not. This is just one example. So who is right?
    Right or wrong is defined by quantity. In any society, whatever the majority goes for is right and opposite is wrong in that context. As I have said earlier, morality is relative. It will depend upon the time, the people, and the place.

    It could be immoral giving water to a thirsty person but when water is a rare commodity, you can justify that even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    It amuses me to see Muslim brothers and sisters bending over backwards to justify the Islamic morality to Atheistic standard.

    Do we not trust Allah swt enough to explain to us what is moral and what is not ? How can a random atheist on the street tell us about morality which Allah swt could not ?

    Think for a moment.. once we start "reinterpreting" Allah swt's message, is our purpose to understand what He wanted to convey, or is our purpose to make Him say what is acceptable to our Atheist friends ?

    The answer to this subtle question will define how good a Muslim you are and how strong your imaan is.
    I've seen strict religious people and their way of living with hypocrisy and using the religious scripts as they find convenient.

    You can say, they are not good Muslims. But in that case, I'll speak that, the religion itself failed and it couldn't provide enough ground to that person to the moral values that he should have had according to the religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    Right or wrong is defined by quantity. In any society, whatever the majority goes for is right and opposite is wrong in that context. As I have said earlier, morality is relative. It will depend upon the time, the people, and the place.

    It could be immoral giving water to a thirsty person but when water is a rare commodity, you can justify that even.
    ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    I've seen strict religious people and their way of living with hypocrisy and using the religious scripts as they find convenient.

    You can say, they are not good Muslims. But in that case, I'll speak that, the religion itself failed and it couldn't provide enough ground to that person to the moral values that he should have had according to the religion.
    I am talking about Islamic morality, not Muslims' morality.. many Muslims today are swayed by western Atheistic standards of morality and behavior, where strange roles of women are prescribed.. does it mean Muslim women start acting like their western counterparts ? I would advise no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    I am talking about Islamic morality, not Muslims' morality.. many Muslims today are swayed by western Atheistic standards of morality and behavior, where strange roles of women are prescribed.. does it mean Muslim women start acting like their western counterparts ? I would advise no.
    This is the problem.

    Who are you to decide what's right and wrong?

    How you can guarantee that the version of interpretation that you are giving is the right one than thousands of others offered by different people?

    You are just a mortal person. Only GOD knows the best and he can give the verdict. What you are doing here is, you are at the verge of self proclaiming Messiah who is trying to dictate how people should live their lives.

    ... That's against Islam itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    This is the problem.

    Who are you to decide what's right and wrong?

    How you can guarantee that the version of interpretation that you are giving is the right one than thousands of others offered by different people?

    You are just a mortal person. Only GOD knows the best and he can give the verdict. What you are doing here is, you are at the verge of self proclaiming Messiah who is trying to dictate how people should live their lives.

    ... That's against Islam itself.
    I am not giving any verdict.. I am just trying to state Islamic position. You are right, in the end, Allah swt knows best.. but he gave a message in the form of Qur'an.. so we know what He wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I wholly disagree. I have n strict moral code yet am motivated to be kind, by feelings of love and fundamental respect for others. Not self interest or self preservation, and progress at any cost is meaningless to me.
    You have taken all of these values from religious people around you or internalised them during the days when you were religious. If we had put you in a vacuum when you were born without any religious people around you or with people who had not inherited any moral codes from religion, you wouldnt have these values. Secondly, there are lots of exceptions to the general trends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    You have taken all of these values from religious people around you or internalised them during the days when you were religious. If we had put you in a vacuum when you were born without any religious people around you or with people who had not inherited any moral codes from religion, you wouldnt have these values. Secondly, there are lots of exceptions to the general trends.
    The isolated system would have itself develop its own moral after hit and trial during the conflicts that would have developed. Which in turn shows that morality is independent of religion itself. This comes from adaptation. Even an isolated system tries to adapt to maintain equilibrium for its own survival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    I am not giving any verdict.. I am just trying to state Islamic position. You are right, in the end, Allah swt knows best.. but he gave a message in the form of Qur'an.. so we know what He wants.
    Quran is interpreted differently by different people. How do you know your version is correct?

    I have seen numerous example where people take a verse out of context yet they claim it is Islamic because it is written in quran.

    How you will be sure that the ethical principles that you are arguing for is infact is represented correctly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    You have taken all of these values from religious people around you or internalised them during the days when you were religious. If we had put you in a vacuum when you were born without any religious people around you or with people who had not inherited any moral codes from religion, you wouldnt have these values. Secondly, there are lots of exceptions to the general trends.
    Not all religion claims it's souce of morality/code of conduct from God,... like Buddhism,Jainism etc where the source is man himself.
    Last edited by RogerBao; 2nd October 2018 at 08:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axis View Post
    It amuses me to see Muslim brothers and sisters bending over backwards to justify the Islamic morality to Atheistic standard.

    Do we not trust Allah swt enough to explain to us what is moral and what is not ? How can a random atheist on the street tell us about morality which Allah swt could not ?

    Think for a moment.. once we start "reinterpreting" Allah swt's message, is our purpose to understand what He wanted to convey, or is our purpose to make Him say what is acceptable to our Atheist friends ?

    The answer to this subtle question will define how good a Muslim you are and how strong your imaan is.
    Allah's moral code? Ok, according to the verse, tafsir & hadith below, it's not a big deal to flirt around (as long there is no penetration). You subscribe to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerBao View Post
    Allah's moral code? Ok, according to the verse, tafsir & hadith below, it's not a big deal to flirt around (as long there is no penetration). You subscribe to it?
    Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152, 153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V. 2:2)]. (Quran 53:32,)

    Those who avoid grave sins and abominations exception lesser offences that is minor sins such as a look a kiss or a touch this constitutes a discontinuous exception in other words the meaning is but lesser offences are forgiven by the avoidance of grave sins......... * تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Quran 53:32)

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
    A man came to the Prophet (ﷺ), and said: My wife does not prevent the hand of a man who touches her. He said: Divorce her. He then said: I am afraid my inner self may covet her. He said: Then enjoy her.
    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2049 Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    Quran is interpreted differently by different people. How do you know your version is correct?

    I have seen numerous example where people take a verse out of context yet they claim it is Islamic because it is written in quran.

    How you will be sure that the ethical principles that you are arguing for is infact is represented correctly?
    Qur'an is not very ambiguous, it is only those Muslims who try to interpret it deliberately to suit their own agenda who create this impression of various interpretations existing.

    Qur'an as by the word of Allah swt, is clear and complete, and fully detailed. If there is ambiguity, it would mean Allah swt isn't clear and perfect.

    It is human effort to make it seem different..

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerBao View Post
    Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152, 153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V. 2:2)]. (Quran 53:32,)

    Those who avoid grave sins and abominations exception lesser offences that is minor sins such as a look a kiss or a touch this constitutes a discontinuous exception in other words the meaning is but lesser offences are forgiven by the avoidance of grave sins......... * تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Quran 53:32)

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
    A man came to the Prophet (ﷺ), and said: My wife does not prevent the hand of a man who touches her. He said: Divorce her. He then said: I am afraid my inner self may covet her. He said: Then enjoy her.
    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2049 Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)
    If Allah swt said it is fine, it should be fine.. are you more perfect than the almighty creator of the universe ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Fair point Robert but I would say not all tribes hold the same moral values esp when it comes to murder. There are tribes who are ok with killing someone who are strangers. Then there is also the death penalty and even in societies such as the UK where it has been abolished millions felt it morally fine for the UK to bomb and kill people in Iraq because of a perceived threat.
    The death penalty is Biblical.

    Then again two million people marched against that invasion, and a lot of MPs voted against it including all fifty Lib Dems of the time. You will find few Britons now who will try to justify it and millions who think Blair is a war criminal. This despite the U.K. being largely secular now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    The isolated system would have itself develop its own moral after hit and trial during the conflicts that would have developed. Which in turn shows that morality is independent of religion itself. This comes from adaptation. Even an isolated system tries to adapt to maintain equilibrium for its own survival.
    I disgree when you say it would have developed its own moral because such a "moral" might not be what we generally define as moral. I believe it would have developed a (im)moral code that "Might is right" which is exactly what God less corporators and powerful businessmen do. Traditions,sentiments of powerless people take a back seat for their evil agenda of greed, unregulated progress and personal interests. Isolated system might move towards equilibrium but equilibrium doesnt always mean justice for all. If the powerless accept that being oppressed is their only choice, then things would reach an unjust equilibrium. Without religion, the isolated system would move towards such a state. Many social contract theorists have pointed towards such a condition in the state of nature where there was no religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerBao View Post
    Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152, 153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V. 2:2)]. (Quran 53:32,)

    Those who avoid grave sins and abominations exception lesser offences that is minor sins such as a look a kiss or a touch this constitutes a discontinuous exception in other words the meaning is but lesser offences are forgiven by the avoidance of grave sins......... * تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Quran 53:32)

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
    A man came to the Prophet (ﷺ), and said: My wife does not prevent the hand of a man who touches her. He said: Divorce her. He then said: I am afraid my inner self may covet her. He said: Then enjoy her.
    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2049 Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)
    Do you have a degree in Islamic studies , fiqh, Jurisprudence and a permission from an Islamic university/authority to interpret hadiths and derive rulings out of them?

    If not, then kindly go to a learned scholar who will clear your doubts. The science of hadiths is not as simple as reading a hadith and taking its literal meaning out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerBao View Post
    Not all religion claims it's souce of morality/code of conduct from God,... like Buddhism,Jainism etc where the source is man himself.
    In their case the man "received" enlightenment. And Buddhism is more of a lifestyle rather than a religion in the strictest sense of the word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    I disgree when you say it would have developed its own moral because such a "moral" might not be what we generally define as moral. I believe it would have developed a (im)moral code that "Might is right" which is exactly what God less corporators and powerful businessmen do. Traditions,sentiments of powerless people take a back seat for their evil agenda of greed, unregulated progress and personal interests. Isolated system might move towards equilibrium but equilibrium doesnt always mean justice for all. If the powerless accept that being oppressed is their only choice, then things would reach an unjust equilibrium. Without religion, the isolated system would move towards such a state. Many social contract theorists have pointed towards such a condition in the state of nature where there was no religion.
    I have lot to write about the other points but first, I want to weed out one point that is not related to the thread.

    Has religion ever solved the problems of injustice? Going through the history, it has failed miserably. Isn't it the middle east where most dictatorship is prevalent where religion is first priority (if you call it a facade, I may agree but then again, it means religion failed to bring realizations to people that it is merely a facade), then is equality there?

    The countries who boosts more about mortality seems like the one where the most injustice does exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    In their case the man "received" enlightenment. And Buddhism is more of a lifestyle rather than a religion in the strictest sense of the word.
    Err No.. It is one of world's first religion in the strictest sense of the word.


    Tazimi Sirdar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    I have lot to write about the other points but first, I want to weed out one point that is not related to the thread.

    Has religion ever solved the problems of injustice? Going through the history, it has failed miserably. Isn't it the middle east where most dictatorship is prevalent where religion is first priority (if you call it a facade, I may agree but then again, it means religion failed to bring realizations to people that it is merely a facade), then is equality there?

    The countries who boosts more about mortality seems like the one where the most injustice does exist.
    Yes it has.
    Siddhartha Gautam
    Alvar and Nayanar saints
    Bhakti and Sufi saints in North India.

    They all fought against injustices against lower class people and dedicated all their life to the upliftment of downtrodden. They were all religious and preached the message of one almighty except perhaps Siddharth but even his teachings had a religious element in them.

    Religion infact has done a LOT to solve the problems of injustice. Now that's a completely different matter altogether that it failed in that task.


    Tazimi Sirdar

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    "Morality" is the formalization of interpersonal relations cemented by "civilization", which is itself the extension of "religion", in the sense of a gradation of rituals which create a social link (as per anthropologists like AM Hocart/Rappaport) or provider of a sense of sacred which re-actualizes origin myths (Eliade).

    Basically (post)modern individuals (atheists or agnostics) can be "moral", but their "morality" predates them by 1000s of years, and is exclusively religious in nature.


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