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  1. #1
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    Should MS Dhoni make way for Dinesh Karthik for World Cup 2019?

    In the first T20 match against West Indies, Dinesh Karthik led his team to victory with a cool and calm inning, playing the role of anchor to utmost perfection. With that performance, he has proved that he is ready to take the mantle from MSD as far as WC 2019 is concerned, who is currently only good in playing the anchor role when there isn't any scoreboard pressure.

    DK is a very good wicket keeper as well but what seperates him from MSD currently is his ability to score runs at a fast rate when matters and unlike MSD, he won't take away the life from the game either after the platform is laid by Rohit and Kohli.

    Yes, he is not some kind of a genius. He will also fail in few games but I believe at this point of time,he will produce better output than MSD,who I think will fail seven out of 10 times and play a good supporting role on two occasions at a relatively better looking Strike Rate and score one hopeless inning when team loses early wickets.

    I think time has come for the unselfish Dhoni to make way for Karthik for that no. 5 position in the Indian team as DK also brings with him the experience and can play the anchor role as well as score runs fast as per requirement of the game. My batting lineup for the WC 2019 will be: -

    Rohit
    Dhawan
    Kohli(C)
    Rayudu/Rahul
    Karthik(wkt)
    Jadhav/Pant
    H Pandya

    This is the best lineup India can play with. With a middle order of KL Rahul, Dinesh Karthik, Kedhar Jadhav and Hardik Pandya, India gets a great mix of players who can play the anchor role as well as the ones who can switch gears when its about going berserk. Dinesh Karthik brings with him the added experience in that middle order.

    While at this point, Rayudu has been impressive at 4 and hasn't kept a foot wrong since his return, I won't mind having him there either. KL Rahul hasn't yet cemented the no. 4 spot(he got just 3 matches at 4 and when he opened, he was fantastic both in ODIs/T20s). So, it is still a fight between the two at 4.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 6th November 2018 at 06:32.

  2. #2
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    Dhoni should make way without worrying who replaces him. When he knows that he can't score runs or win matches , then he should step aside and let others be given a chance. He shouldn't sit there as a judge evaluating who's better than him.

  3. #3
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    Pant is the guy. We should invest in him across all formats going forward.

    Dhoni, Karthik, Parthiv Patel et al are busted flushes.

  4. #4
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    A middle order of KL Rahul/Ambati Rayudu(since he hasnt kept a foot wrong till now, I am changing my stance for him), Dinesh Karthik, Kedhar Jadhav and Hardik Pandya is what India should eventually go with. A good mix of aggression as well as defense.

    Rishabh Pant is a backup option because I feel Indian management were over-cautious and took it a little late to have him in the side.So, he is still a WIP.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    Pant is the guy. We should invest in him across all formats going forward.

    Dhoni, Karthik, Parthiv Patel et al are busted flushes.
    His keeping is not good and Indian management being over-cautious, took it a little late to have him in the side. I will have him after the WC 2019. Till then he is a backup option and feel Karthik with his experience and his ability will add more value than MSD.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    His keeping is not good and Indian management being over-cautious, took it a little late to have him in the side. I will have him after the WC 2019. Till then he is a backup option and feel Karthik with his experience and his ability will add more value than MSD.
    What has Karthik done bar a 9-ball innings vs Bangladesh in a T20?

    He averages a slender 30 after 80+ ODIs.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    What has Karthik done bar a 9-ball innings vs Bangladesh in a T20?

    He averages a slender 30 after 80+ ODIs.
    The 230 chase vs NZ, remember?? He is a better option than Dhoni and can bat as per team requirement unlike Dhoni and Pant, where the former can only play anchor inning while the latter can only play quickfire inning.

    This is DK V2. 0 not the older one.

  8. #8
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    MS Dhoni can only play those kind of innings which DK played two days back. He can't score runs fast as per team requirement.

    Pant can play quickfire innings but he needs to learn the art of anchoring the inning and if he was given a chance 1.5 year ago in the team, he might have been able to learn it by now. But now it is too late for WC 19. Also, his keeping isn't any good.

    Karthik is a good enough keeper, knows how to anchor his inning, delivers when matters and can also quicken up when required. He can't become an equivalent of peak MSD but he is the best option available for India.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    What has Karthik done bar a 9-ball innings vs Bangladesh in a T20?

    He averages a slender 30 after 80+ ODIs.
    You are taking this from an overall career point of view. Pant should go on to have a much bigger and better career than Karthik but as far as WC 19 is concerned, the best option available right now is DK.

  10. #10
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    karthik has one or two good international innings every 3-4 years. He's been playing for India for 14 years and is nothing more than a half decent journeyman. It's a joke that he's been playing ODIs recently as a specialist batsman.

  11. #11
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    I would rather play Dhoni than DK. Pant is the long term man for India.

  12. #12
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    Pant should be the one to replace him and Karthik should be thrown out of the side.

  13. #13
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    Dinesh Karthik made his India debut before Dhoni. So replacing Dhoni with Karthik would be like Replacing Dhawan with Gambhir.

  14. #14
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    For Pant yes not for karthik who is coming to an end of his career anyway.

  15. #15
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    As if Kartik is any better.

  16. #16
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    Pant as keeper and KL Rahul as back up keeper is enough in the squad.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Pant as keeper and KL Rahul as back up keeper is enough in the squad.
    Remember Rahul keeping in IPL a few years ago. Why doesn't India use this option?

  18. #18
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    Because he’s played two good T20 knocks? Average of 30, strike rate of73 after 86 ODIs. Even a misfiring Pant or Kishan will be better

  19. #19
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    We're stuck.

    Pant can't be played as he's not capable of building an innings.

    Dhoni is over, can't be played as he cannot hit when RRR reaches even 6.

    Karthik, he just is not international quality. He may play good innings here and there but, cannot be trusted for the WC.

    Best option is play Rahul at 5 as a WK

  20. #20
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    Some good points there but it seems most have failed to understand the context.

    There is no point mentioning his career average. Nobody is making a claim that he is anywhere close to the player that Dhoni is or Pant will become in future.

    The argument is that on current form and considering the team role and balance, the best guy India can pick as a wicket-keeper for the World Cup 2019 is DK.

    He has recently proved that he can play the role of anchor as well as MSD does, and he can also play quick-fire innings as per requirement of the game which Dhoni cant.

    As for Risabh Pant, he is no doubt a future of Indian cricket but if you think someone who is still a Work in Progress and had played just 12 ODIs till WC 19 and is a mediocre keeper as well will have a major impact on WC, then chances are quite unlikely. He is your man, your pick but after WC 2019, not now. It's late for WC19.

  21. #21
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    Really? Drop Dhoni the greatest chaser of all time for that guy?

    Dhoni at 80 is still more useful than Dinesh.
    Dhoni is still the best Kepler and tactician in the world. The best keeper batsman is De kock.

  22. #22
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    Why don't India try out Ishan Kishen as a wk in odis? I saw him in IPL and he looked far better technically than Pant. He has decent List A numbers too

  23. #23
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    Take Pant and MSD to World cup. Clearly MSD for experience and back up just in case if Pant keeps failing. Pant should be selected from first match though, so he gets going. We know how devastating he can be if he plays 50 balls. Pant may have been flooded early to international games, but with getting exposure, he can improve a lot. MSD and Karthik's performances are on par at the moment, MSD wins just for the sheer experience and wicket keeping ability.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  24. #24
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    Dhoni is averaging 25 with 72 sr in 2018. Don't know how people are not seeing that. Just as Dhoni dropped players bc they were getting older and slower in the field, now his performance as a batsman is being affected so he needs to go. what I do not understand is if drone played as a finisher his whole career by himself, how is it that he believes that he can suddenly change his style and become a middle order player. but main issue is dot ball percentage. he has adopted misbah's strategy which is odd bc he dhoni is a a beast.

  25. #25
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    Play pant.We need a hitter(for last 15 overs after good start by top 3) and left hand batsman in middle order.Rayudud/Rahul can be anchor at 4.

  26. #26
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    Dhoni is not going anywhere. He has always been part of the WC plans and this was decided long time ago.

  27. #27
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    No. Dhoni should play in world cup.

  28. #28
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    I think Dhoni will not go anywhere in ODI format till the WC is over. So it is a moot point even discussing this now. But after the WC, India need to invest in youth and get rid of the 30+ players like DK, Rayudu, Jadhav et all and build a team around Rohit, Dhawan and Kohli for the next WC. If we don't do that we will end up in similar mess we are in right now.

  29. #29
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    MS Dhoni is still the best wk-batsman in the country.

    /thread

  30. #30
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    KL Rahul should become a full time wicket keeper. I have no hopes from Karthik and Pant.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsin123 View Post
    Why don't India try out Ishan Kishen as a wk in odis? I saw him in IPL and he looked far better technically than Pant. He has decent List A numbers too
    Still too young and a top order bat
    Though he did well for India A in middle order in the couple of matches he played
    He would be getting more opportunities for India A in future since Sanju Samson experiment has failed and Pant is in the Indian side
    If he does well there he would get into the national team
    I expect him to be our future WKB who will have a better career than Pant

  32. #32
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    Dhoni is still better.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaag Viru Bhaag View Post
    KL Rahul should become a full time wicket keeper. I have no hopes from Karthik and Pant.
    It will go the other Rahul (Dravid) way! Actually Dravid was much better keeper, but still he had issues with wicket-keeping! But one thing it did was it brought good balance to the team (India had some good run in ODIs then with 7 quality batsmen - Natwest win, World Cup finals in SA...)

    But still it will not be a long term solution. There's Dhoni still, DK also around, and with Pant being groomed and Rahul's not yet established at least in Tests (compare that with Dravid) it looks too risky and it can put even more pressure on Rahul who is already struggling with mental issues! I don't think this will happen. Actually Rahul is good enough to play as a batsman alone if he gets all his act right! Kohli may also drop to No.4, if Rahul assures consistency at No.3...

    Unfortunately we have too many wicket-keeping alrounders, it would have been so good if some of these guys were decent part-time bowlers like Yuvaraj, Raina, D.Mongia, etc! Also all these guys are pretty slow in the field without WK glows. This has added a lot to India's batting lineup issues! This is where probably K.Jadhav may score over all these guys (including Rayudu!) Also we have Krunal coming up, let's see... But all these are looking like complications more on the negative side (not yet settled... Krunal, Jadhav may all find tough time in Australia/NZ)

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    It will go the other Rahul (Dravid) way! Actually Dravid was much better keeper, but still he had issues with wicket-keeping! But one thing it did was it brought good balance to the team (India had some good run in ODIs then with 7 quality batsmen - Natwest win, World Cup finals in SA...)

    But still it will not be a long term solution. There's Dhoni still, DK also around, and with Pant being groomed and Rahul's not yet established at least in Tests (compare that with Dravid) it looks too risky and it can put even more pressure on Rahul who is already struggling with mental issues! I don't think this will happen. Actually Rahul is good enough to play as a batsman alone if he gets all his act right! Kohli may also drop to No.4, if Rahul assures consistency at No.3...

    Unfortunately we have too many wicket-keeping alrounders, it would have been so good if some of these guys were decent part-time bowlers like Yuvaraj, Raina, D.Mongia, etc! Also all these guys are pretty slow in the field without WK glows. This has added a lot to India's batting lineup issues! This is where probably K.Jadhav may score over all these guys (including Rayudu!) Also we have Krunal coming up, let's see... But all these are looking like complications more on the negative side (not yet settled... Krunal, Jadhav may all find tough time in Australia/NZ)
    It's amazing that in a country this vast, there is no decent middle order batsman. Rahul could have made no.4 his own but I understand his reluctance after seeing the nature of his dismissals. After a pretty 15 or 20, he is getting dismissed on a million dollar shot. He seems to enjoy the freedom of PP overs and wants to continue there. Rohit and Dhawan aren't going away soon and Rahul seems to have lost the race to Rayudu. The ODI series in Aus should show the real capability of Rayudu

  35. #35
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    India's real problem is not Dhoni, it's lack of bowling option from top order..


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smbhayi View Post
    India's real problem is not Dhoni, it's lack of bowling option from top order..
    So we must select batsmen on their bowling skills?Time to bring back Raina again?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanRyan10 View Post
    So we must select batsmen on their bowling skills?Time to bring back Raina again?
    I didn't mean that way! Actually I preferred all these guys to be proper specialists (i.e., batsmen! Good middle order batsmen who can continue the work of such a high quality top order batting!) We don't need their bowling or WK skills actually! Our bowling resources now is so good (death bowling, wicket-taking wrist spinners, fielding unit...) so we just wanted them to do that peak Yuvaraj/Dhoni/Raina kind of middle-order batting! This Top order & bowling unit deserved such decent middle-order! But unfortunately we have three Wicket-keepers fighting for middle-order "specialist" batting spot! (DK, Dhoni, Pant...) This is so annoying (ironically even Rayudu, Rahul have "wicket-keeping" as secondary skill... None of these 5 have any kind of bowling skills neither are they good in ground-fielding! They are only good at catching in close positions which is not that important in ODIs!) Again I say that we didn't bother their secondary skills at all if they were completely reliable as batsmen! Kohli, Pandya & other fast movers would have covered the fielding loopholes!

    For this team Pandya is enough as alrounder, and probably Bhuvaneshwar (if he becomes a certain in ODIs, he actually looks so!) can also add depth to the batting! It is only the "middle order" batting! Only that! Only that is the big issue/weakness of this side! This rubbish middle-order is what is making our TOP order to be blamed in some matches (like CT Finals) and our late-order/tail is also criticized which is not necessary! This is actually putting additional pressure on our top order... They will bat more freely and even perhaps Pandya can also play more freely & effectively if he bats at No.7 with a solid No.4 to No.6! Bumrah, Kuldeep, Khaleel with Panyda & Bhuvi is a decent bowling line up in England (unless it assists spin where we can play Krunal/Chahal in place of Khaleel)) which means we want only 1 wicket-keeper with best batting strength & all others don't really have to bowl anything (It only had to come naturally to them like Yuvi/Raina! If it's not then no issues! Our current bowling unit is capable of bowling their each 10 overs quota! We don't have Varun Aaron/Munaf kind of bowlers now thankfully!)

    So it just sums up that there should be 1 proper WK with decent batting skills (at least good enough to bat at No.6) and No.4 & No.5 should be on par (at least 80%) with Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli's abilities! That will make this team complete! Otherwise this team becomes predictable, one-dimensional & oppositions will exploit the loophole (attack the Top order like in CT Finals). Hence this team can only win selected matches on their day when the opposition are on sleep or if the opposition is not strong enough! And will continue to bottle in proper high profile knockouts against decent teams (like last WC Semis, CT Finals, etc)

  38. #38
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    @RamLakhan

    CT final loss was definitely not due to the middle order. That loss was because of

    1. bowling failure
    2. failure of top 3 batsmen

    How many scorecards have you seen of a team scoring 350 runs after being 3 down in the first 10 overs? I can only recall one:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-india-2016-17

    I don't remember any other team doing this.

    Modern day ODI cricket is totally dependent on top order batters. Nobody has better chances of scoring runs than a top order bat. If all 3 fail collectively, despite being given the best batting positions, then there is no point in blaming the middle/lower order for not being able to score 300 runs in 40 overs with just 7 wickets in hand.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    @RamLakhan



    How many scorecards have you seen of a team scoring 350 runs after being 3 down in the first 10 overs? I can only recall one:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-india-2016-17

    I don't remember any other team doing this.
    Indian middle order actually did this twice in this series. The 2nd ODI, as mentioned and also the 1st one. But since Kohli was also part of the chase in the 1st, I haven't mentioned it. But it should be noted that in that match our middle/lower order scored 211 runs off 156 balls.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Indian middle order actually did this twice in this series. The 2nd ODI, as mentioned and also the 1st one. But since Kohli was also part of the chase in the 1st, I haven't mentioned it. But it should be noted that in that match our middle/lower order scored 211 runs off 156 balls.
    So you are OK with the middle order comprising of DK, Rayudu, Dhoni... OK I understood your point (CT & World Cup Semis were won because of posting huge totals... 350+ totals) But cricket is not just about stats, its more of psychological & mental advantages! Even in the match you mentioned you can notice that India batted first and hence they were able to recover like that (and it was just one-off last glory of Dhoni & Yuvi! And it is ironical how you were able to bring this match as example!) The same match is also the best example how England were almost able to chase down that total because of the efforts by Morgan (No.4 bat playing outside his home! That's called quality! Current Dhoni/DK/Rayudu lack that! And England got rid of even that man because there were other better options for them or he lost his touch! But you know in India how we stick on to certain things like leaches!) In that match f course even they underwent slight top order collapse, but some of them recovered because knowing that they bat deep & they can be in the game always! That's what I call "psychology"!

    In India's case the top order will be under immense pressure and all of them will succumb to pressure easily whenever opposition are strong/punch higher! You can observe the result! They will not even get close to the target or compete properly in these matches (CT Finals, WC Semis!) They will just surrender like minnows! This happens because of the "Weak" middle order! But ardent BCCI/Shastri/Kohli supporters such as you will tweak the scenarios to your liking! We don't mind competing till the end and losing, but this total surrender in some matches is because of huge dent/weakness in one area and that's certainly middle-order which the opponents exploit if they plan carefully/smartly! Also the bowlers will be under immense pressure to restrict opponents on flat pitches because they know that they don't have any kind of batting after No.3... (Bumrah's no-ball is the best example and the way he lost his bowling totally when Fakhar went berserk!) All this adds to the psychological game! No team will perform properly/to their fullest strength once they know that they have a huge-mount-everest like weakness in their kitty every time they go out to play! Every player in the team (including Dhoni, Rayudu, Kohli, Shastri) knows it exactly, but still they hide it for strange (political!) reasons I guess!
    Last edited by RamLakhan; 9th November 2018 at 08:20.

  41. #41
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    On the other hand I am happy with Indian Test Team even though they lose/even if they get whitewashed in overseas tests! Because they are competing till the end and there is no or very less political selections happening there! Everything is going on the basis of merit (whether we win/dominate at home or lose/compete overseas!) Players also seem to get selected/dropped based on merit only!

    But in ODIs there is a clear case of mafia ( ) going on... Dhoni has to be there to retain his brand and the corporates want this to continue for longer time because they don't want to wait for another player to grow to that stature and it will be a business-loss for them (as they are not interested even an iota about welfare of Indian Cricket!) And this is also the reason why DK, Rayudu, etc, are all around the scheme because they are anyway going to perform lesser than Dhoni, and hence Dhoni can claim superiority as he is doing better than them + WK skills + Experience/Ghost Captaincy!

    Tests don't generate enough revenue and hence they have left it safe! (Also Dhoni left it)

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    @RamLakhan

    Anybody who follows cricket properly will tell you that WC SF 2015 and CT 17 final was lost due to the bolwers.

    Look back at all the scorecards of KO matches from WC 2015 and CT17. Not a single team has managed to chase a 300+ score in a KO. In fact, the lowest margin of defeat in all of these instances is 95 runs. That should tell all you need to know about chasing 300+ scores in KOs.

    Today's modern day 340+ scores in JAMODIs seemed to have numbed you when it comes to gauging competitive scores but a 300+ target has always been a huge target in KOs and it still is.

    If a bowling team gives away 330+ runs in a KO, then you have lost more than half the match there itself and the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the bowlers.

    If your top order, who gets the maximum chance to settle down at the crease cannot contribute to chasing a 330+ score, only a fool would blame the middle order for failing.
    Last edited by the_outsider; 9th November 2018 at 11:33.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    @RamLakhan

    Anybody who follows cricket properly will tell you that WC SF 2015 and CT 17 final was lost due to the bolwers.

    Look back at all the scorecards of KO matches from WC 2015 and CT17. Not a single team has managed to chase a 300+ score in a KO. In fact, the lowest margin of defeat in all of these instances is 95 runs. That should tell all you need to know about chasing 300+ scores in KOs.

    Today's modern day 340+ scores in JAMODIs seemed to have numbed you when it comes to gauging competitive scores but a 300+ target has always been a huge target in KOs and it still is.

    If a bowling team gives away 330+ runs in a KO, then you have lost more than half the match there itself and the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the bowlers.

    If your top order, who gets the maximum chance to settle down at the crease cannot contribute to chasing a 330+ score, only a fool would blame the middle order for failing.
    NZ once chased 300 in 43 overs match in a WC semi-final.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    NZ once chased 300 in 43 overs match in a WC semi-final.
    I don't remember this match. When was it? I was under the impression that 2015 was NZ's first WC final appearance.

    When I was writing my last post I looked at scorecards from the last 4 WCs and the highest score chased in a KO out of all them was India chasing down 275 in the 2011 final.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    I don't remember this match. When was it? I was under the impression that 2015 was NZ's first WC final appearance.

    When I was writing my last post I looked at scorecards from the last 4 WCs and the highest score chased in a KO out of all them was India chasing down 275 in the 2011 final.
    Probably the best match of that tournament.

    WC semi final 2015,SA vs NZ.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Probably the best match of that tournament.

    WC semi final 2015,SA vs NZ.
    Oh yeah! Forgot that it was a truncated match. I kept thinking NZ chased down 280.

    But I think my point stands. Probably the only time in WC history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    I don't remember this match. When was it? I was under the impression that 2015 was NZ's first WC final appearance.

    When I was writing my last post I looked at scorecards from the last 4 WCs and the highest score chased in a KO out of all them was India chasing down 275 in the 2011 final.
    Correction. As AB Fan rightly pointed out, this would be the NZ vs SA semifinal.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Oh yeah! Forgot that it was a truncated match. I kept thinking NZ chased down 280.

    But I think my point stands. Probably the only time in WC history?
    Yes, that was biggest run-chase. 2nd is India in WC final 11 and 3rd, although not sure but is it India vs Australia, 2011 WC quarter final?? Do you have any link to check for it?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Yes, that was biggest run-chase. 2nd is India in WC final 11 and 3rd, although not sure but is it India vs Australia, 2011 WC quarter final?? Do you have any link to check for it?
    No link man. Sorry. I have just checked the individual scorecards. But I think you are right about all that.

  50. #50
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    @ the_outsider You are not at all getting my point of "Psychology" in cricket! If you have proper middle-order bat then opponents may not score 300+ in the first place, bowlers may not bowl like mads (in a high profile knockout! Remember even the opponent get under same kind of pressure, same kind of intensity in such a key match! And it is not that they magically hit 300+ in such a tough match as they do in JAMODIs as you say! They plan everything carefully! Pakistan burnt out against Australia in 1999 finals just thinking about Australian strong deep batting lineup & their strong bowlers! They didn't know how much to post, how to bat even though they had a decent batting lineup, and eventually messed up everything! They would have competed well even if they had put 270 on the board which they were capable of!) This is what you can do to opponent if you have such STRENGTH in you! It can demoralize the opponent, on the other hand India has a HUGE HUGE WEAKNESS in their armory which is clearly visible to the opponent! (That Australian team didn't have any such weakness!) Once you expose such a huge weakness to opponent, they will plan everything accordingly! When there is such huge weakness in you, then even your SUPERB strength can go for a toss at times! That's why Australia were so strong as they covered all the holes in their team & that's why I strongly feel that England is the favorite to win the coming world cup because they are closer to that Australian kind of side (covering all holes + they are playing at home! I strongly feel England will win their first world cup this time!) That's why so many international cricketers/commentators insisted to improve the Indian middle order, were insisting to include Rahul in the scheme of things! Were telling how bad DK, Rayudu, etc, are as they do not have the capability to score 100s (like Yuvaraj, Raina... At least hit high 50s at will...!)

    For instance Pak wouldn't have decided to bat first if India had same kind of strength in middle order as they have at the top! Since they knew it they planned to take that risk of giving maximum punch on attacking Indian Top order and Indian opening bowlers and it paid off on that day (Indian Top order was also under pressure because they knew that its a KO match and there is no batting later on to carry the innings! So they were in a dilemma whether to attack or defend) That's why Pakistan again tried the same ploy in Asia Cup (especially without Kohli! That reduces the Top order to just 2 batsmen)! But this time (both matches) Indian bowlers outsmarted them & Top order blew them away! It is utter foolishness to blame Indian bowlers & Indian Top order for these losses and hide this dirty middle order batsmen saying as if they have no role to play! (Yes I know I understand that they are in the team as passengers without anything to do! Even though you do not mean that way, it eventually means that way to me without your knowledge )

    India has the best top order in the world today (compared to other teams) & also has their best ever bowling unit (best ever pacer in their entire cricketing history! And also potential best ever spinner!), see where the actual problem lies if you can think properly! No need to politically mask up things!

    You can't neglect JAMODIs just like that! These are the matches which helps a team to develop & work out combinations at the same time opposition will learn the Strengths & Weaknesses of their opponent!

    As I said it not just about statistics or runs! It is the psychological game that works behind unknowingly to everyone!

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    @RamLakhan

    So much of your "psychological knowledge" so can you say why no team ever has chased 280+ in an ICC KO? The only exception to this is NZ vs SA in 2015. Only once has this been done after 19-20 WC/CTs.

    So by your logic all these teams had a "weak middle order" that put pressure on the top order right?

    Remember our 2003 WC batting line-up? Sachin, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Yuvi, Kaif. What did they do chasing 360? But of course your logic is correct. Blame CT loss on middle order.

    Current Indian middle order is not as strong as the top order. Everyone knows that. But to blame CT final loss on the middle order takes a special kind of genius.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    @RamLakhan

    So much of your "psychological knowledge" so can you say why no team ever has chased 280+ in an ICC KO? The only exception to this is NZ vs SA in 2015. Only once has this been done after 19-20 WC/CTs.

    So by your logic all these teams had a "weak middle order" that put pressure on the top order right?

    Remember our 2003 WC batting line-up? Sachin, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Yuvi, Kaif. What did they do chasing 360? But of course your logic is correct. Blame CT loss on middle order.

    Current Indian middle order is not as strong as the top order. Everyone knows that. But to blame CT final loss on the middle order takes a special kind of genius.
    When you are not getting the point of why 300+ score is put in the first place, then there is no point in arguing further! According to you 300+ first innings score just happens accidentally/magically and any team (probably decent, OK) can do it on a given day if they are lucky (luck of winning toss included)! Is that what you are arguing? Probably you think so because all the initial editions of World Cup were won by teams batting first (and hence all oldies thought that winning the toss, batting first and score board pressure is enough to win all ODIs! They filled this filth so much that everyone believed it blindly! This is exactly what you are arguing now in a different way!) until Sri Lanka revolutionized & changed that trend (that was a magnificent turnaround by them and forever Sri Lanka will be praised for this immense achievement) Until then everyone blindly thought that chasing is difficult even for Top teams like WI, Aus, RSA... This is again psychological hangover and even teams/players perhaps fell into this trap (again psychologically!) Fortunately teams later learnt that this is not a necessity (I guess now you will talk about new batting rules, technology, neutral umpires, etc! But still it won't affect 300+ scores isn't it )

    Anyhow even in the past, teams actually won based on merit (WI, Australia were top teams then) and not necessarily because of batting first (thankfully they did not post 300+ to make your claim stronger!) According to you England would have won 2 world cups instead of WI if they were lucky at the toss (as simple as that! Huh!) Also its not that teams were not winning chasing at all! 250+/- scores were chased in some matches (including WC Semis probably) 220-250 those days were equivalent to 300 of today (at least!) It was just coincidental that top teams batted first in the finals & won the World Cups. Except the unexpected India in 1983! But even then India were an in-form team in that world cup (with pretty good players for English conditions!) The finals was just a punch way above their heights and probably WI were bit complacent after 2 world cup triumphs before and never took India seriously! And probably after this Indian victory in finals (defending low total) made everyone believe that "batting first" is the winning formula! Now I guess it is posting 300+ is the winning formula for you!

    Pakistan tried the same formula in Asia Cup against India and you saw what happened (in fact for UAE conditions 250+ were enough for them to stay competitive!) Hence 300+ just doesn't happen like that (at least in high profile knock out matches!) It happens because the winning team have planned thoroughly for the match covering all their holes + the losing team messed up severely/complacent and gave adequate indication of their loopholes! Otherwise every match or every alternate match will have 300+ scored by teams batting first if its so easy!

    You neglect human psychology so much and consider these real games by humans on real fields as some computer/mechanical games! I have encountered lots of humans under different psychological conditions and even experienced myself and know how much "psychology" plays a role in human life! And that's what makes life so beautiful & joyful (the unexpectedness, unpredictability & surprises mixed beautifully with plans, actions & executions!)

    F.Zaman may have accidentally started playing fluently in that match (unexpected at least by Indian bowlers) got hit with a luck (no-ball), but still carried on because captain stupid Kohli (everyone knows it expect you probably who think/pretend to be ardent Kohli/Shastri/BCCI follower), coach debacle, weak/worn out middle order in the mind of captain & bowlers (feeling the pinch what happens if Pak reaches 300! Suddenly Amir looks lethal in English conditions! Chasing in Finals pressure.... Everything starts calculating & ringing in the mind!) This makes the opponent go further stronger & you getting further weaker! This is how life/match happens! You can see the mixture of everything here (luck, unexpectedness, misunderstanding, miscalculation, lack of planning... everything!)

    It is because of strong (super strong) middle order that we won WC'11.... They were on par with the Top order if not better! There is absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever! Otherwise the result would have been no different! We would have faltered... The peak Dhoni (at least in SC conditions), Yuvaraj (Super Raina about to come at No.7. Harbhajan, Zaheer no mug with the bat sent negative signs to the opposition!) And remember all these guys were at BEST form (it doesn't mean that you should keep picking them forever showing tribute to their achievements!) Also you can notice that the Top Order also actually contributed in that match, in fact a good/important/major contribution (Gambhir!) Its a team game, all 11 should have a role to play (there is no room for passengers or past glory tributes!) Only then you will win matches regardless of batting first/chasing/posting 300+ anything (Yes only then you will be posting 300+ instead of being in the receiving end to chase 300+ Even luck goes behind victors/strong men only!)

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    @RamLakhan

    You don't need to teach me psychology. I'm pretty sure I have more formal education in psychology than you do and I haven't discounted it at all.

    But the fact remains that 300 has been chased down only once in 43 years of ICC tournaments. You haven't explained why that is the case.

    And you have said it yourself. Despite having its best ever middle order, India still needed a 97 run contribution from a top order batsman to chase down just 275 (that too at home).

    That should be enough for you to realise that blaming the middle order for CT is totally rubbish. When your top 3 fails collectively chasing 330, then it's not the fault of the middle order. When your bowling gives away 330 in a final (which is basically like giving away 430 in a JAMODI) it's not the fault of the middle order.
    Last edited by the_outsider; 10th November 2018 at 09:08.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    @RamLakhan

    You don't need to teach me psychology. I'm pretty sure I have more formal education in psychology than you do and I haven't discounted it at all.

    But the fact remains that 300 has been chased down only once in 43 years of ICC tournaments. You haven't explained why that is the case.

    And you have said it yourself. Despite having its best ever middle order, India still needed a 97 run contribution from a top order batsman to chase down just 275 (that too at home).

    That should be enough for you to realise that blaming the middle order for CT is totally rubbish. When your top 3 fails collectively chasing 330, then it's not the fault of the middle order. When your bowling gives away 330 in a final (which is basically like giving away 430 in a JAMODI) it's not the fault of the middle order.
    Oh! You are going to any extreme to defend the useless middle order, political selection policies and captaincy shortcoming! No wonder Indian cricket will remain backward forever and will never dominate it to the fullest and will always falter overseas with fans/experts such as you in spite of talent abundance, and it disheartens true fans such as us!

    Why are you insisting on 300 so much? First of all putting up such total (first innings) is also difficult in World Cup! And I gave the example of Pakistan in 1999... Wasn't that Pakistani line up (comprising of Anwar, Inzamam, Ijaz, Razzak and Wasim coming at No.8 capable of scoring better than 130+ against not so strong Australian bowling attack (which had just Mc.Grath & Warne as the only real threats!)

    According to you 300+ just happens accidentally without any planning and the opposition should just shut up and accept the defeat caused due to an accident! The mindset of Gambhir opening on that day (with the backing of a solid middle order coming below him and a far lesser runs to chase!) is completely different than the jittery Top order in CT finals who had to encounter Hot Amir, Coach Debacle and the absent middle order! No surprise that you not even want to blame coach/captain debacle for the CT loss and put the entire blame on bowlers & top order! This is a win-win situation for you, because people know that Indian Top order & bowlers are good now, so putting blame on them works well because they are doing their job otherwise, in this way you can hide all your weaknesses, weak-links! This is how political dramas work in our country!

    I can show you tons of example of how Australian middle order rescued their team's collapse (whether they are batting first or chasing) Opponents used to never relax against them! It may have never happened in World Cup, that's because Australia were too hot to handle by any team in World Cups! Hence they never got into that kind of position (but they handled other tougher conditions like Klusener! That was possible because of their team game & covering all holes!) Even South Africa of 90s was a brilliant complete team (barring their choking & ill-luck affairs!) These teams didn't even bother who were opening for them or never were totally dependent on them! (Mind you, that also meant that the openers had to do their job & don't put all the responsibility on the rest)

    You don't want India to become that complete team and want to live within the limitation forever. This shows in the way you back the worn-out players and bad-potential-trundlers (without identifying the proper talents, just blindly nodding heads at political selections made by so-called superior authority! Look what SA did to Cronje, Aus to Smith/Warner! Forget discarding non-performers, they even completely discard any ill-act!) You guys want India to be corrupt nation forever (besides its glory & culture) So we should satisfy & feel proud when this Top Order Giant come up with glorified individual performances in less consequential matches & the bowlers blowing out lesser teams! You want to celebrate this fake dominance and do not want to build a proper team where each player's contribution becomes meaningful & consequential!

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    @RamLakhan

    I think you haven't read my posts properly. I have never disagreed with you that our current middle order is weak at this point.

    Where I disagree with you is on the fact that you are somehow blaming the middle order for the CT final loss.

    Which is just not true. CT was lost because of bolwers. It's crazy that you would blame a middle order for not chasing 340 after the team is 3 down for 40 but you are not putting blame on the bowlers who let the opposition score 340 in the first place!

    Like I said before, India had better middle order (and an ATG top order) in the 2003 WC final as well. But they lost by 125 runs! Is that the fault of the batsmen? No! It's the fault of the bowlers. No team should let the opposition score 350 runs in a final and then expect the batsmen to bail them out of a near-impossible situation.

  56. #56
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    @ the_outsider

    It seems there is some miscommunication between us and I guess the truth is somewhere between the two extremes! My point is the team's mindset gets affected prior to the match/series looking at the opposition! If the opposition is clear-cut solid like Australia, then it depresses them knowing that however, how much ever you try you may fail eventually (no matter how professional you are, human emotions always flow) On the other hand if you see a noticeable weakness in opposition, then if you are determined and smart enough you can exploit it!

    Hence 300 being scored on a given day (especially against good oppositions in a high profile match) is a result of this pre-planning by smart team and lapse by the not so smart team, hence it doesn't happen just like that by luck/accident! (Of course there is momentarily victories of key moments in the match! As they say the team was good on the given day! But still only a strong team at least in their current form can go on to win any trophy, no matter how much luckier they are!) That is why you have to be ruthless to remain dominating!

    Hence I say it is not fair to put the blame on Top Order and Bowlers for such losses (symptoms of a disease) when you have an actual disease aggravated in some other part of the body! Hence always naturopathy medicine teaches to cure disease by seeing body as a whole! (In this case the whole 11 members + substitutes are essential for healthy condition of the team!)

  57. #57
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    In the meantime, Dhoni's PR team rumbles on:

    MS Dhoni attends company board meeting, enthrals executives

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/crick...i3PnEr5VI.html
    The Mahi Way: The story of the outsider who took on Indian cricket’s high and mighty

    https://indianexpress.com/article/ex...dhoni-5439026/
    More articles than runs is hardly ever a good sign.

  58. #58
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    First T20I 50 for Pant in 30 balls. Something which took 75 matches and10 years for Dhoni to achieve.

    Pant, with today’s knock, has taken a huge step towards ending Dhoni’s ODI career as well. So happy for him. Could have finished the match on his own, played too many risky shots but then that’s the format.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketindiafan View Post
    First T20I 50 for Pant in 30 balls. Something which took 75 matches and10 years for Dhoni to achieve.

    Pant, with today’s knock, has taken a huge step towards ending Dhoni’s ODI career as well. So happy for him. Could have finished the match on his own, played too many risky shots but then that’s the format.
    Dhoni can pass on his valuable tips of how to play with a cool head and remain not out till the end or take it to last over After all they shared/share same dressing room recently (and perhaps in WC too!)

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    Pant played like a hack and got out like a hack. The way he got out, I bet Rohit gave him an earful in the dressing room. And rightly so.

    If India lost the match, it would have been because of Pant.

    And some fans were asking for Pant to replace Dhoni.

    Hopefully he'll learn not to be a brainless slogger and finish the match. But clearly has a long way to go.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    Dhoni can pass on his valuable tips of how to play with a cool head and remain not out till the end or take it to last over After all they shared/share same dressing room recently (and perhaps in WC too!)
    Haha. Expect the Dhoni PR mafia to put a story soon on how Dhoni has guided Pant to improve as a player.

    The burn Pant has given to this Dhoni mafia and Dhoni bhajan mandli in the last 4-5 months can be felt in posts of blind Dhoni supporters. Imagine a 20 year coming in and doing things in 4 months which Dhoni could not do in his 14-15 year long career.

  62. #62
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    Good inning by Pant. He is a future superstar for India. If he learns the role of anchor, he can become the next Yuvraj Singh in making.

    Deserves to be in T20 and once Dhoni retires, he will take that place in ODIs as well.

    India is blessed to have Pant, because he will play a pivotal role in middle order moving ahead.
    Last edited by Ab Fan; 12th November 2018 at 07:41.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Pant played like a hack and got out like a hack. The way he got out, I bet Rohit gave him an earful in the dressing room. And rightly so.

    If India lost the match, it would have been because of Pant.

    And some fans were asking for Pant to replace Dhoni.

    Hopefully he'll learn not to be a brainless slogger and finish the match. But clearly has a long way to go.
    Current Pant is certainly better than Current Dhoni! That much at least I can assure! I am definitely not saying that Pant is better than Prime Dhoni or even the initial long-haired masculine 180+ hard-hitting Dhoni Please don't think that we were/are not fans of Dhoni & his achievements! Probably we loved him much more than you at that time (At that time probably you were thinking of Kiran More or Nayan Mongia as they were perfect Wicket-Keepers for those days, and scrutinized even Dhoni then for his hack abilities!)

    We are some fans who think/dream like Australian/English/SA fans to lift our team to the TOP level by playing right players at right time! Current Dhoni will lose more matches than Current Pant (even with all his experience and cool head!) Current Pant has the capability to win more matches than Current Dhoni! More importantly, Current Pant can only become better Pant (at least 80% of Prime-Dhoni if not more!) if only he gets more chances to play & given more responsibility, and not by hiding & burning his talent by going behind so-called experience/expertise! Current Pant may not win the coming world cup but I am sure he will become a real force by the time next world cup arrives (for that he needs the experience of being part of key moments! That's what Kohli got in 2011 & his career took a quick exponential rise there onward!) If you delay then everything will be delayed & decayed eventually!

    This delaying & hiding is the act of political movement! Unfortunately Dhoni/Kohli/Shastri are not visualized enough like Ganguly who changed the model of Indian Cricket team then!

  64. #64
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    India seems to have moved a step ahead after dropping Dhoni out of the T20 squad.

    This is a team filled with youngsters and they have stepped up for India. One match was won by a cool and calm effort by Dinesh Karthik while the other had Pant playing a pivotal role.

    T20 squad looks good now as India are without Kohli.

    Once Kohli comes in, Manish Pandey might have to make way.

    Rohit
    Dhawan
    Kohli
    Rahul
    Pant
    Karthik(wkt)
    Pandya
    Jadeja
    Kuldeep
    Yadav
    Bumrah

    Always, these XI means nothing because India will continue to make experiments in T20 matches.

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    I feel both Dhoni & Karthik should make way for youngsters like Sanju Samson or another up coming player. So to answer the OP, both shouldnt be playing for India now...


    "Everything else seems so superfluous." ~ Albert Einstein on the Bhagavad-Gita

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    India seems to have moved a step ahead after dropping Dhoni out of the T20 squad.

    This is a team filled with youngsters and they have stepped up for India. One match was won by a cool and calm effort by Dinesh Karthik while the other had Pant playing a pivotal role.

    T20 squad looks good now as India are without Kohli.

    Once Kohli comes in, Manish Pandey might have to make way.

    Rohit
    Dhawan
    Kohli
    Rahul
    Pant
    Karthik(wkt)
    Pandya
    Jadeja
    Kuldeep
    Yadav
    Bumrah

    Always, these XI means nothing because India will continue to make experiments in T20 matches.
    Umesh & Jadeja are crap in t20 format
    Khaleel/Bhuvi & Chahal should be in the XI instead of them

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romali_rotti View Post
    I feel both Dhoni & Karthik should make way for youngsters like Sanju Samson or another up coming player. So to answer the OP, both shouldnt be playing for India now...
    I am all for youngsters coming in. But now there is not much time left to groom youngsters for 19'WC.

    So, it comes down to Dhoni and Karthik only. And now I dont think Dhoni will be replaced before WC 19. So, perhaps that is what Indian team will go with.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Pant played like a hack and got out like a hack. The way he got out, I bet Rohit gave him an earful in the dressing room. And rightly so.

    If India lost the match, it would have been because of Pant.

    And some fans were asking for Pant to replace Dhoni.

    Hopefully he'll learn not to be a brainless slogger and finish the match. But clearly has a long way to go.
    It wasn't an exceptional knock still a good one
    Has MS Dhoni played a better knock in a chase in t20s?(for India not His franchise CSK)

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanRyan10 View Post
    Umesh & Jadeja are crap in t20 format
    Khaleel/Bhuvi & Chahal should be in the XI instead of them
    Maybe, I don't follow T20 much.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Pant played like a hack and got out like a hack. The way he got out, I bet Rohit gave him an earful in the dressing room. And rightly so.

    If India lost the match, it would have been because of Pant.

    And some fans were asking for Pant to replace Dhoni.

    Hopefully he'll learn not to be a brainless slogger and finish the match. But clearly has a long way to go.
    1.he made runs, that's what matters.

    2.india won the match, pandey ji scoring4(6)
    Is the reason why match went that close.

    3.you claimed that pant is a hack and he served you humble pie, so you devised a new way ofdegrading a very good innings applying meaningless filters.

  71. #71
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    There's no use of crying now, it's too late. Dhoni is going nowhere.

    This is going to be our top 6(unless some injuries occur )

    Rohit
    Shikhar
    Legend *
    Rayudu
    Pant
    Dhoni +

  72. #72
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    Dhoni in one feet is still better than DK could ever be.

    Furthermore the way kohli gets clueless in crunch moments of the game, its imperative for DHONI to stay in the team to guide Kohli.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    Oh! You are going to any extreme to defend the useless middle order, political selection policies and captaincy shortcoming! No wonder Indian cricket will remain backward forever and will never dominate it to the fullest and will always falter overseas with fans/experts such as you in spite of talent abundance, and it disheartens true fans such as us!

    Why are you insisting on 300 so much? First of all putting up such total (first innings) is also difficult in World Cup! And I gave the example of Pakistan in 1999... Wasn't that Pakistani line up (comprising of Anwar, Inzamam, Ijaz, Razzak and Wasim coming at No.8 capable of scoring better than 130+ against not so strong Australian bowling attack (which had just Mc.Grath & Warne as the only real threats!)

    According to you 300+ just happens accidentally without any planning and the opposition should just shut up and accept the defeat caused due to an accident! The mindset of Gambhir opening on that day (with the backing of a solid middle order coming below him and a far lesser runs to chase!) is completely different than the jittery Top order in CT finals who had to encounter Hot Amir, Coach Debacle and the absent middle order! No surprise that you not even want to blame coach/captain debacle for the CT loss and put the entire blame on bowlers & top order! This is a win-win situation for you, because people know that Indian Top order & bowlers are good now, so putting blame on them works well because they are doing their job otherwise, in this way you can hide all your weaknesses, weak-links! This is how political dramas work in our country!

    I can show you tons of example of how Australian middle order rescued their team's collapse (whether they are batting first or chasing) Opponents used to never relax against them! It may have never happened in World Cup, that's because Australia were too hot to handle by any team in World Cups! Hence they never got into that kind of position (but they handled other tougher conditions like Klusener! That was possible because of their team game & covering all holes!) Even South Africa of 90s was a brilliant complete team (barring their choking & ill-luck affairs!) These teams didn't even bother who were opening for them or never were totally dependent on them! (Mind you, that also meant that the openers had to do their job & don't put all the responsibility on the rest)

    You don't want India to become that complete team and want to live within the limitation forever. This shows in the way you back the worn-out players and bad-potential-trundlers (without identifying the proper talents, just blindly nodding heads at political selections made by so-called superior authority! Look what SA did to Cronje, Aus to Smith/Warner! Forget discarding non-performers, they even completely discard any ill-act!) You guys want India to be corrupt nation forever (besides its glory & culture) So we should satisfy & feel proud when this Top Order Giant come up with glorified individual performances in less consequential matches & the bowlers blowing out lesser teams! You want to celebrate this fake dominance and do not want to build a proper team where each player's contribution becomes meaningful & consequential!
    Brilliant post!

    I simply don't understand how can an Indian fan be satisfied with a team which isn't domainting world cricket

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeteshssaxena View Post
    1.he made runs, that's what matters.

    2.india won the match, pandey ji scoring4(6)
    Is the reason why match went that close.

    3.you claimed that pant is a hack and he served you humble pie, so you devised a new way ofdegrading a very good innings applying meaningless filters.
    Dhoni hasn't finished a t20 match For India in his life but has actually lost us 5 which includes 2 matches where he failed to get 8 runs in the final over

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeteshssaxena View Post
    1.he made runs, that's what matters.

    2.india won the match, pandey ji scoring4(6)
    Is the reason why match went that close.

    3.you claimed that pant is a hack and he served you humble pie, so you devised a new way ofdegrading a very good innings applying meaningless filters.
    1. Yes I'm very happy that we won and overall you're right that he scored runs in a winning cause and for that I am happy

    2. Pandey was certainly not the reason the match went so close. That blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Pant. If you have doubts go back and watch that god-awful shot he played to get out when all India needed was 8 off 11 balls.

    3. Anybody who is more than a pyjama cricket fan can tell that Pant is a hack. He tries to muscle the ball more often than not. And in the process he loses his balance - which is the most important aspect of batting. And even in this innings he skied the ball 3 times which almost went to a fielder.


    People here seem to think that I am some blind Dhoni fan and all I'm trying to do is downplay Pant and it couldn't be further from the truth.

    I know that Pant is the future of Indian cricket and I hope he achieves great things for the country. But I am also not not to the very obvious fact that Pant is simply not ready to play at the highest level yet, much less a WC.

    WC is only 40% about skills. 60% is about temperament and mindset. And Pant certainly does not have the temperament for international cricket yet. The day he starts doing that, there will be no stopping him.

    I would be glad if Pant is taken to the WC but currently there is not a single spot in the XI that he can claim to have earned. And rightly so.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanRyan10 View Post
    It wasn't an exceptional knock still a good one
    Has MS Dhoni played a better knock in a chase in t20s?(for India not His franchise CSK)
    Don't know about chases (have to check) but I can certainly remember many T20I knocks that were better than this one Pant.

    In fact, I can remember at least 2 knocks from the first T20WC itself that were far better innings. Both of those matches were KO matches for India, including a SF.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kohli, The King of Chase View Post
    There's no use of crying now, it's too late. Dhoni is going nowhere.

    This is going to be our top 6(unless some injuries occur )

    Rohit
    Shikhar
    Legend *
    Rayudu
    Pant
    Dhoni +
    Problem here will be only five bowlers. No sixth option. So, they might go with Jadhav instead of Pant.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Problem here will be only five bowlers. No sixth option. So, they might go with Jadhav instead of Pant.
    Yeah, Jadhav will replace Pant.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Don't know about chases (have to check) but I can certainly remember many T20I knocks that were better than this one Pant.

    In fact, I can remember at least 2 knocks from the first T20WC itself that were far better innings. Both of those matches were KO matches for India, including a SF.
    You need not to check it
    You know MSD hadn't played any knock as good as Pant played yesterday

    But instead of praising him for that knock you are still finding faults in his knock & blaming him for match getting close
    Pant got out when India needed 8 runs from 11 with 7 wickets left so he has done his job by the time he got out
    But then it was ur another fav Manish who huffed & puffed in such an easy finish so you are trying to put entire blame on Pant

    "1 teer se 2 nishaane"
    You are defending Manish & at the same time making Pant look bad since he is a threat to Your Thalapathy's place in the team

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    1. Yes I'm very happy that we won and overall you're right that he scored runs in a winning cause and for that I am happy

    2. Pandey was certainly not the reason the match went so close. That blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Pant. If you have doubts go back and watch that god-awful shot he played to get out when all India needed was 8 off 11 balls.

    3. Anybody who is more than a pyjama cricket fan can tell that Pant is a hack. He tries to muscle the ball more often than not. And in the process he loses his balance - which is the most important aspect of batting. And even in this innings he skied the ball 3 times which almost went to a fielder.


    People here seem to think that I am some blind Dhoni fan and all I'm trying to do is downplay Pant and it couldn't be further from the truth.

    I know that Pant is the future of Indian cricket and I hope he achieves great things for the country. But I am also not not to the very obvious fact that Pant is simply not ready to play at the highest level yet, much less a WC.

    WC is only 40% about skills. 60% is about temperament and mindset. And Pant certainly does not have the temperament for international cricket yet. The day he starts doing that, there will be no stopping him.

    I would be glad if Pant is taken to the WC but currently there is not a single spot in the XI that he can claim to have earned. And rightly so.
    If I'll apply your logic, I'll have to kick out Tendulkar in every match that India lost during 90s where he got out at 60+

    Manish failed to pick even single.


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