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  1. #1
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    What are the real reasons behind Pakistan being so hopeless in ODIs?

    Some say we are just minnow bashers.

    My answer: I dont think thats right. If that was the case then we wouldnt have won the test vs Australia and white washed Aus & NZ in T20s. Not too long ago we won tests in England as well.

    Some say we dont have talent.

    My answer: I do not agree. We have a strong bench strenght with lots of guys knocking on the door. Lots of our players give strong performances in Tests and T20s at home and overseas

    Some say playing in the UAE has destroyed our cricket

    My answer: Then how come we continue to win tests and T20s here.

    Some say Mickey Arthur and Grant Flower have to go

    My answer: These are two top names and they have transformed the fitness, professionalism, fielding etc.

    Some say Sarfaraz is the problem

    My answer: Who would you like to replace him with? Kamran Akmal?

    Some say Umar Akmal, the missing star

    My answer: Oh please!

    I dont think any of the above points are the real issues. In my view it is the methodolgy problem. ODI cricket is just a different science. We need guys who know how to bat in 50 overs. 260 was a piece of cake on that wicket and any decent team would have chased it down.

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
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    The batsmen are not talented enough, aren't strategic enough and don't have any self-belief.

    The batting line up needs tweaking as well. I would rather play Sarfraz at 4 and Hafeez at 6. Sarfraz is the accumulator. Hafeez does well when he doesn't have to plan out an innings and can just play his cricket freely.

  3. #3
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    How was it a piece of cake chase when 250+ has only been chased 3 times?

    All 3 times by Pakistan and it took one hell of an innings to cross the line.

    Bottom of the line is that we just aren't good enough on these slow pitches where it's a combo of t20 and test.

  4. #4
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    Our best two batsmen are flunking game after game. We have been two down for nothing in majority of the games we have played against good sides. The middle-order doesn't have the quality to win you games after disastrous starts, simple as that.

    The bowling is fine, and gets scrutinized more so because Pakistan fans expect the bowling attack to win them games consistently in an era where every top team is relying on their powerhouse batting line-ups to win games.

    Soon as Fakhar and Babar start scoring, we'll go back to "does Pakistan have the most dynamic batting line-up in ODI cricket?"

  5. #5
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    A top order Hatrick is very hard to recover from especially when you have a 3 man tail. The Fact that Pakistan Crossed 200 and was in the game till the last 10 overs is a good sign. However the worrying fact is how we left NZ of the hook in last overs, where total tail enders hit us for Sixes. Hassan Ali declining form is an issue. Hope We play Faheem in his place it will strengthen the batting. However we need to fix our pace dept. As we Just only have Shaheen Afridi in limited overs cricket & M abbas in Tests. We need 3 in both Odis and Tests who are performing.

  6. #6
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    Talking about this match, Boult was just remarkable. Take out his contribution, Pakistan would have likely reached the target, with stellar work from their teenagers in Sahdab and Shaheen. Lets not forget NZ is a terrific ODI side as well.

    The end of this series will show us where Pakistan are at. If they are not competitive or lose, then there is a serious, serious issue.

  7. #7
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    Our best batsmen (Fakhar and Babar) are failing like no tomorrow along with our best bowler (Hasan)

  8. #8
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    Some say it was #Misbahsfault

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by babajee View Post
    Our best batsmen (Fakhar and Babar) are failing like no tomorrow along with our best bowler (Hasan)
    Don't forget Amir. Same story with him. He's better than Hasan when in rhythm.

  10. #10
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    Playing T-20's and ODI's in UAE is different from test matches. UAE wickets are not meant for fast scoring.

  11. #11
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    Its the approach firstly.

    Most modern day ODI teams have batsmen who can score 5-7 runs an over just in singles and doubles, playing low risk shots. They look comfortable doing this.

    Our strike rotation is very poor to the point where we get 2-3 runs an over. When we are bogged down, we play out maidens.

    Playing like this just brings pressure, and pressure brings wickets.

    Today was a freak collapse, which happens to Pakistani batsmen once in a while. I wouldnt read too much into this match alone. However, the larger trend of us not adapting to the modern game is definitely a worry.

  12. #12
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    When Pak top 3 give a start Pakistan score runs. Nothing much else, the lower order can hit and bowling and fielding is very good.

    Just stick with it until the World Cup, things will improve.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  13. #13
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    An outdated batting strategy of playing 5-6 accumulators whereas the rest of the world have moved to an avg SR of 90 plus

  14. #14
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    Because Pakistan still relies on a batter who has been playing since 1999 to provide stability to the ODI line up. Pakistan is fantastic in T20 and the same formula does not work in ODIs. In ODIs you need players who bat at a good clip and also are able to score big hundreds. Pakistan does not have many players who can do that. They are all good scoring pretty 30's and 40's but not scoring big hundreds. When you have such a line up your best chance is to bat first and hope your batters can get you to 250+ and you try to defend it using your bowling attack which is great. If chasing you hope that your bowlers can get the opposition out under 230.

  15. #15
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    I feel rotation if strike during middle order and loss of top order wicket(s) is the reason

  16. #16
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    u cant win ODI with pretty 20'sssssss. You need someone to score 100.

    Pakistan can not chase with bunch of t20 hackers. In Tests, don't underestimate the contribution of Yasir previously and Abbbas lately for us to win the matches, we have been avg in tests as well.

    You take out these guys and you are drowning like no tomorrow.

    Tailenders have BLOCK or HIT mentality and can not accumulate, this is what we are plagued with.


    Yesterday is the past.Tomorrow is the future.Today is a gift.That's why it's called the "present"

  17. #17
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    Pakistan's formula for winning ODIs is gone.
    The original pakistani formula for winning was bat first.They had generally good enough batsmen for respectable totals even though were always vulnerable chasing.If they could score 230 plus with legendary bowlers and reverse swing they always fancied themselves.

    Then the legendary bowlers retired .Batting quality also declined.Pak batsmen never caught on with the ODI batting revolution where runs were getting ever higher.250 was competitive in 90s,but pakistani batsmen still play like that.To compensate for fall in bowling quality Pak used 3 spinner attack with hafeez,afridi and ajmal.Chucker ajmal and hafeez won them many games.But once ajmal got banned, hafeez same this strategy of strangling opposition teams no longer worked in UAE.

    In CT came with a new team with half of the players unknown and was taken lightly by all the teams.But after that,most teams began to study these previously unknown guys.Now problem is pakistan neither has chucking spinners,nor legendary fats bowlers,nor reverse swing.But it still has good-very good fast bowlers.But they can't rely solely on the bowling anymore to win them games.
    But batting has not really improved much and retained its original flaws.
    So pakistan has partially lost its original power in bowling and has never really improved in batting retaining all its original flaws.On top of it both in batting and bowling talent level is not as high as earlier.

  18. #18
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    There is only one team currently that can set or chase 300+ scores. That's England and they are eons ahead of everybody else.

    Indian team's chasing strategy is to restrict opposition to a score less than 270. Their top 3 batsmen are capable of scoring hundreds and you need at least one batsman to score a hundred and a couple of fifties to chase down 270. Due to weak middle order, they don't have the capability to chase more than that score anymore. It's the Indian bowling that is winning games for the team often as they are restricting the opposition to less than that 270 score regularly.

    Pakistan has a similar strategy but the score they can chase is close to 230. Does Pakistan have the bowling to restrict teams to 230 consistently? Does Pakistan have a top order that can consistently score 75 runs in the first 15 overs without losing more than a wicket?

    At the end of the day, India cannot copy England and Pakistan can't copy another team. Each team has their capabilities and restrictions. However, great team management, captain and strategies are usually aligned to maximize the utilization of resources in their disposal. Pak team can't score more than 260 while setting a target. They can't chase more than 230. Accept that and think how to consistently make those numbers first. As the players improve or are replaced with fresh faces, the targets could change. At this point, I think Pakistan needs to aim for those minimum guarantee returns consistently.

  19. #19
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    We are finished as a cricket nation.
    There is no talent in domestic
    All our upcoming Batsman are same as haris and imam ( too slow)

    We are not going to beat even windies in cw19

  20. #20
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    Lacking confidence, once or when the team can string a couple of 260+ chases together they will have more hope and confidence knowing that they've chased it before. I honestly hope NZ sets high totals this series so it could help our batting order develop their game i.e. Babar.

  21. #21
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    People will always talk up some messiah that is not part of the team and how he will change our fortunes.

    First it was Sahibzada and now it is Badar, Shakeel, Saad etc. whatever. However, the truth is that there is a 99% chance that these players will be out of their depth as well.

    In addition, our lower-order is an absolute circus and undoubtedly the worst in the world.

    Sarfraz is mediocre, Asif is terrible and Shadab and Faheem are glorified tail-enders who are given prominent positions in the lineup. Out of all the so-called all-rounders, Imad is the best batsman.

    The spin bowling is quite weak as well. Yes Shadab took three in one over yesterday, but he is not in the same league as the best ODI spinners today. Imad is also more of a T20 specialist.

    I donít buy our artificial T20 success and I think the drama that we are the best T20 side will blow up soon. I also think we are a mediocre Test team, but our batting deficiencies are not exposed in those formats to the same extent as they are exposed in ODIs.

    ODI is the most tactical format and only dynamic and intelligent batsman can thrive in it, especially today.

    You need everything - technique, patience, intelligence, strike rotation and big shots. All of our batsmen lack in multiple categories.

    Some donít have patience and technique, others lack in intelligence and some donít have big shots.

  22. #22
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    Honestly, when we play pak I am not worried about someone running away with game, only fakhar somewhat is capable that too when odds are in his favour totally.

    Their batting line is manageable, so as a viewer you are not fearing of assault later even if partnership is developing.

    Bowling attack is question of surviving new ball. Thats why amir is someone we are wary of.

  23. #23
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    bits and pieces from no.4 to no.8

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    People will always talk up some messiah that is not part of the team and how he will change our fortunes.

    First it was Sahibzada and now it is Badar, Shakeel, Saad etc. whatever. However, the truth is that there is a 99% chance that these players will be out of their depth as well.

    In addition, our lower-order is an absolute circus and undoubtedly the worst in the world.

    Sarfraz is mediocre, Asif is terrible and Shadab and Faheem are glorified tail-enders who are given prominent positions in the lineup. Out of all the so-called all-rounders, Imad is the best batsman.

    The spin bowling is quite weak as well. Yes Shadab took three in one over yesterday, but he is not in the same league as the best ODI spinners today. Imad is also more of a T20 specialist.

    I don’t buy our artificial T20 success and I think the drama that we are the best T20 side will blow up soon. I also think we are a mediocre Test team, but our batting deficiencies are not exposed in those formats to the same extent as they are exposed in ODIs.

    ODI is the most tactical format and only dynamic and intelligent batsman can thrive in it, especially today.

    You need everything - technique, patience, intelligence, strike rotation and big shots. All of our batsmen lack in multiple categories.

    Some don’t have patience and technique, others lack in intelligence and some don’t have big shots.
    Agree with each and every word

  25. #25
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    It's quite simple really, 50 over matches require a quality batting line up. Pakistan has a poor record in these games because they don't have five top class batsmen. Check the averages and see if the figures add up.

    On the other hand, Pakistan is almost unbeatable in 20 over games, because for the shorter game you don't need big innings. One or two decent slog innings wins you the game, and bowlers become much more important.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It's quite simple really, 50 over matches require a quality batting line up. Pakistan has a poor record in these games because they don't have five top class batsmen. Check the averages and see if the figures add up.

    On the other hand, Pakistan is almost unbeatable in 20 over games, because for the shorter game you don't need big innings. One or two decent slog innings wins you the game, and bowlers become much more important.
    I do think we have four or five quality ODI batsmen:

    1) Babar
    2) Imam
    3) Haris
    4) Malik
    5) Fakhar

    However, the team management refuses to play them all at the same time and even when they have, at least a couple have been out of form. Right now, Haris is out of the side and Fakhar is batting like a tail-ender.

    The real problem is that we have no #6 batsman. Sarfaraz does a decent job from time to time but he's not a top-class batsman and should not be batting higher than #7, at least not until he rediscovers his earlier form. If, and when we find that #6 batsman, who can ideally also bowl a bit, our batting lineup will look much better.

    The bowlers are also suffering from a case of poor form but they'll bounce back soon enough. That is not an issue, in my opinion.

  27. #27
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    Sarfaraz and Imad at six and seven is going to end badly 9 times out of 10. We need a proper number six batsman, ASAP.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    I do think we have four or five quality ODI batsmen:

    1) Babar
    2) Imam
    3) Haris
    4) Malik
    5) Fakhar

    However, the team management refuses to play them all at the same time and even when they have, at least a couple have been out of form. Right now, Haris is out of the side and Fakhar is batting like a tail-ender.

    The real problem is that we have no #6 batsman. Sarfaraz does a decent job from time to time but he's not a top-class batsman and should not be batting higher than #7, at least not until he rediscovers his earlier form. If, and when we find that #6 batsman, who can ideally also bowl a bit, our batting lineup will look much better.

    The bowlers are also suffering from a case of poor form but they'll bounce back soon enough. That is not an issue, in my opinion.
    None of your top 5 have ever played a match winning knock batting second against a top side except malik.
    You are presuming they are top notch. Let them deliver first. So far they havent.

  29. #29
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    Our biggest prob is lack of genuine batsmen, we hype up and embrace guys who have zero mental toughness or strategic game awareness, who can't take charge of a situation. These guys hit one good innings and then keep dishing out 20 30 or 40 and become shuper shtaars, and the hunger for more is never there once they are in the 11...

    sirf aik do match jeet jana kaafi nahin hai.... look for sheer dominance... the current lot of players (mainly batsmen) we have are t20 material bits and peices, hence we do good there... babar is the only half decent bat... rest dont belong... bowling wont bail you out every game...

    and yeah, chasing ka word hamari dictionary mein hai hi nahin... its a lost art on us...

  30. #30
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    Few quotes you hear a lot:
    "surplus of resources is a good headache to have"
    "people (playing) out of position will have significantly diminished value"
    "make the most of the resources you have"

    If you put these 3 things together, you'll have the answer to what is wrong with the Pakistan cricket team.

    I genuinely believe that the resources that we have available in this team are good enough for us to be a good team. Not the best team. But a good team! and definitely not have a 9 - 0 record against top sides this year.

    What do I mean?

    1. We can't find a spot for Haris Sohail in the team. I think @Saj posted his stats in the last few ODIs and they are better than most Pakistani batsman. But somehow we can't find a spot for him.

    2. Hafeez . . In and out? Open or number 4? If a team hasn't realized his value in ODI cricket in 15 years, then its better to just bang your ahead against the wall. For me, IF Hafeez plays in ODIs, his role needs to be that, that was ACCIDENTALLY given to him in the final of the Champions trophy. Go out there after the 35 over mark and attack (and hope that he doesn't get banned again otherwise there's no place for him)

    3. Asif Ali. We need a batsman like him at the death. No doubt about it. His effectiveness has been questionably till now. Also no doubt about it. But for me, he has shown glimpses to suggest that he can give you quick 30s at the end. But my point is, if you have selected him for the role and you believe that he is the best in the country to perform that role, then why dont you stick with him? Give him the time and the confidence to show it.

    He has played 10 matches with 2 against India. And in one of those 2 games, he actually was playing well and looked like someone who could do a job for us. But his record for a number 7 batsman whos job is to accelerate is hardly anything to kick him out for. But again, you can't find a spot for him!

    4. Fahim Ashraf / Shadab Khan / Imad Wasim: What do you do with this trio? Shadab I think is a great cricketer and I really hope he continues to learn, evolve and get better with age. He is only 20. But he is not the batsman you want walking out at the 40th over mark. He doesn't have that ability, so for Pakistan to count him a number 7 batsman is an issue because it creates a false impression of the batting depth. I think Shadab Khan can do a fantastic job in test cricket as a batsman (like he has shown). But in ODI, he should be played ONLY as a bowler (its all in the mindset).

    Fahim Ashraf, while a decent bowler who is improving is not a good batsman. I have not seen any innings from him in the ODI team where he has had an impact with the bat (someone can correct me?). Unless he can become a reliable hitter, you can't count on him. Because if he can, then there is no need for Asif Ali. Right now, we ONLY need both of them because clearly the team doesn't trust our "all rounder" to do the job with the bat! So for me, he is only playing as a bowler, which again is wrong! Perhaps Amir Yamin is a better option than him with the bat even if his bowling is not as good as Faheem. But again . . DEPENDS ON THE ROLE you want this player to play!

    Imad Wasim should be played depending on conditions. I think in places like the WI, UAE, Bang he adds value to the team. In South Africa, England, Australia, NZ, his bowling style doesn't suffice. But for me, he is a better batsman than both Fahiim Ashraf and Shadab khan in ODI cricket. So again, if you wnat him to play a role of a batsman who can bowl . . then work on it! and play him like that!!

    5. Hasan Ali / Amir/ Shinwari / Shaheen Afridi / Junaid: Goodness gracious! You don't even know who starts? Man! And then on top of that add a captian who bowls Hasan Ali in the last overs when he is clearly out of form and Shaheen Afridi was the best fast bowler on the day . . doesn't help! For me personally, Amir, Hasan and Shaheen Afridi would be the 3 pace bowlers I'd like in the World cup . . but again . . idk what the team is thinking, but there is way too much tinkering and not enough planning

    6. Form of Hasan Ali. Look! A lot of people are reacting harshly, and perhaps rightly so! He has been average at best given the heights that he achieved in 2017. Everyone was all praise (world over) for his abilities, his action, his control, his pace, his aggression, etc. etc. . . Also he had NO mystery about him (that he will get found out) . . he was just a good fast bowler! He has lost form . . perhaps focus . . Someone in the setup has to take him away and just get him back to what he was . . Some technical things include his lines and length . . his head position while delivering . . and generally, I think clutter in his head! He needs to sort it out ASAP. YOu don't lose ability over night!! He has the ability and it was/is well recognized . . it's a dip in form and focus! SOMEONE from the THINK TANK has to have the ability to address it . . or so I hope!

    Lastly, This notion that we need hitters in teh line up and not accumulators is NOT correct! You need people in the line up who can BAT! Who will give you a SCORE more often that not! You can worry about hitting when that is taken care off . . A team comprising of Fakhar Zaman and Sharjeel Khan and Asif Ali and other quick scoring players will NOT give you the results (unless you can find a gilchrist and de kock and jason roy and kohli and bairstow in Pakistan)! I can bet my bottom dollar on it!

    You need a team that covers all aspects and roles, and you've got the right people playing those roles . . For now, I think the Pakistan team has good resources. But the team management/think tank is at a loss on how to use those resources!

    Like I said above, with people like Zaman, Babar, Haris, Malik (who has been in the form of his life), Shadab, Amir, Shaheen, Hasan Ali . . (also I am not saying these people are good players . . analysts and pundits world over recognize this fact) . . we have the ability to become a good team! We are grossly underperforming for the reasons I have mentioned above.

  31. #31
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    i blame 2 new balls. before that pakistan was competitve if you look at pakistan at 2011 and before, being competitve in odi matches at home and overseas.

    since their inclusion, spinners have been hampered and reverse swing is out of the equation. being a bowling oriented team, pakistan has not recovered since then.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by warcry View Post
    i blame 2 new balls. before that pakistan was competitve if you look at pakistan at 2011 and before, being competitve in odi matches at home and overseas.

    since their inclusion, spinners have been hampered and reverse swing is out of the equation. being a bowling oriented team, pakistan has not recovered since then.
    Wrong assessment. While 2 new balls will not give much chance of reverse, at the same time it gives twice the number of conventional swing overs up front. A bowling oriented team should have made the maximum of that and picked up 2-3 wickets in the first 15 overs of every game.

    PS: spinners actually would prefer 2 new balls as they can bowl with a ball that has prominent seam (thus better grip and better spin even in the latter part of the innings).

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Wrong assessment. While 2 new balls will not give much chance of reverse, at the same time it gives twice the number of conventional swing overs up front. A bowling oriented team should have made the maximum of that and picked up 2-3 wickets in the first 15 overs of every game.

    PS: spinners actually would prefer 2 new balls as they can bowl with a ball that has prominent seam (thus better grip and better spin even in the latter part of the innings).
    After 30 overs with the second new ball at most you'll see just one slip with more boundary riders against normally a set batsman(men), so the pacers won't try to swing it since it's a high risk strategy with low chance of reward.

    As for spinners - it depends if they can generate bounce like the way Ashwin and Lyon can with the newer ball otherwise they prefer the older ball because it is easier to grip and therefore more spin on offer.
    Last edited by topspin; 8th November 2018 at 11:21.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    People will always talk up some messiah that is not part of the team and how he will change our fortunes.

    First it was Sahibzada and now it is Badar, Shakeel, Saad etc. whatever. However, the truth is that there is a 99% chance that these players will be out of their depth as well.

    In addition, our lower-order is an absolute circus and undoubtedly the worst in the world.

    Sarfraz is mediocre, Asif is terrible and Shadab and Faheem are glorified tail-enders who are given prominent positions in the lineup. Out of all the so-called all-rounders, Imad is the best batsman.

    The spin bowling is quite weak as well. Yes Shadab took three in one over yesterday, but he is not in the same league as the best ODI spinners today. Imad is also more of a T20 specialist.

    I donít buy our artificial T20 success and I think the drama that we are the best T20 side will blow up soon. I also think we are a mediocre Test team, but our batting deficiencies are not exposed in those formats to the same extent as they are exposed in ODIs.

    ODI is the most tactical format and only dynamic and intelligent batsman can thrive in it, especially today.

    You need everything - technique, patience, intelligence, strike rotation and big shots. All of our batsmen lack in multiple categories.

    Some donít have patience and technique, others lack in intelligence and some donít have big shots.
    All the points are spot on.
    All our upcoming Batsman are same as Imam, Asad, Azhar no one is capable of world class odi batting performance.
    Saud Shakil at best can be like babar ( may be less than babar) because he also lake that extra gear.
    Saad Ali is also good for anchor the inning nothing more.
    Zeeshan Malik is still young he needs to improve strike rotation because he plays alot of dot balls.
    Saif Badar have not enough performance on his back in FC and A.

    Similarly Our spin bowling is very very weak
    Shadab is our 1st spinner but is still not good enough, Yes he takes 4 wickets but he also bowled alot short.

    Imad is only best for t20.

    Zafar gohar was good but i don't about his performance in recent matches.

    we will be same minnows basher for at least another 10 years

  35. #35
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    Playing too much T20 and being contended with T20 success. Test bowlers like Abbas will be more successful in ODI.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by warcry View Post
    i blame 2 new balls. before that pakistan was competitve if you look at pakistan at 2011 and before, being competitve in odi matches at home and overseas.

    since their inclusion, spinners have been hampered and reverse swing is out of the equation. being a bowling oriented team, pakistan has not recovered since then.
    So lets just ignore we have had a pathetic batting side in ODIs for about 12 years?

  37. #37
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    We cannot chase 250+ and this is something that has remained a constant thing in Pakistan's batting culture which is why it is imperative that whenever we bowl first we restrict teams to sub 250 scores (as we did so well in CT).

    Babar Azam needs to take more responsibility and forget about playing for his average and milestones. He needs to start winning matches for us on his own with handy cameos around him. Fakhar can't always be the one man army of this team.

    I would experiment with the batting order for now and perhaps promote Imad higher up the order because he can at least rotate the strike effectively and play spin. He also did very well in England during the 2016 ODI leg of the tour.

    Sarfraz needs to stop hiding at no.6 as if he's some hitter and Hafeez is a better hitter than a top order batsman, so I would swap their positions.

    Shoaib Malik's ability to play pace isn't good enough to play in this team and his record in England leaves much to be desired, so I would give Imad a go at 5.

    I would actually shift Hafeez to number 7 and have a floating hitter at 6 depending on the circumstances with either Umar Akmal, Maqsood or Asif Ali. Not the best looking options but that's all we have.

    Imam opening will creep the run rate up and suck out the momentum of Pakistan's innings. I would replace him with Haris Sohail because he has the game against pace to utilise the gaps in the field during the first batting powerplay, unlike Imam he can take the pressure off Fakhar. Ideally we need Sharjeel back however!

    Fakhar
    Haris Sohail
    Babar
    Sarfraz
    Imad
    Umar Akmal/Maqsood/Asif Ali
    Hafeez
    Shadab
    Hasan Ali
    Shaheen
    Amir
    Last edited by topspin; 8th November 2018 at 11:52.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed216 View Post
    None of your top 5 have ever played a match winning knock batting second against a top side except malik.
    You are presuming they are top notch. Let them deliver first. So far they havent.
    Babar Azam 62* vs England
    Haris Sohail 85* vs New Zealand

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Cronie View Post
    Babar Azam 62* vs England
    Haris Sohail 85* vs New Zealand
    Oh yes i forgot haris' innings. But i still cant recall babar'. Please tell me when he played that knock

  40. #40
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    ODI Squad,

    01. Imam ul Haq
    02. Babar Azam
    03. Sarfaraz Ahmad(wk&c)
    04. Saud Shakeel
    05. Shoaib Malik
    06. Mohammad Hafeez
    07. Fahim Ashraf
    08. Imad Wasim
    09. Shadab Khan
    10. Shaheen Afridi
    11. Junaid Khan

    Bench
    12. Hussain Talat
    13. Fakhar Zaman
    14. Haris Sohail
    15. Usman Shinwari
    16. Hasan Ali

    Hafeez should play as finisher.

    If sarfaraz fails then replace him with Rizwan or Umar Akmal and make imad as captain.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed216 View Post
    Oh yes i forgot haris' innings. But i still cant recall babar'. Please tell me when he played that knock
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...irates-2015-16

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Cronie View Post
    Babar Azam 62* vs England
    Haris Sohail 85* vs New Zealand
    Babars innings came at number 6.

    Haris' came at number 5 I believe.

    Maybe they should stick to those positions.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NauV View Post
    3. Asif Ali. We need a batsman like him at the death. No doubt about it. His effectiveness has been questionably till now. Also no doubt about it. But for me, he has shown glimpses to suggest that he can give you quick 30s at the end. But my point is, if you have selected him for the role and you believe that he is the best in the country to perform that role, then why dont you stick with him? Give him the time and the confidence to show it.

    He has played 10 matches with 2 against India. And in one of those 2 games, he actually was playing well and looked like someone who could do a job for us. But his record for a number 7 batsman whos job is to accelerate is hardly anything to kick him out for. But again, you can't find a spot for him! .
    Pakistan can't afford to have a poor mans Afridi in the side that doesn't even bowl.

    We suffered enough with Afridi at 7, but at least he was a world class bowler.

    Asif Ali should learn to twirl his arm for a few overs.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_outsider View Post
    Wrong assessment. While 2 new balls will not give much chance of reverse, at the same time it gives twice the number of conventional swing overs up front. A bowling oriented team should have made the maximum of that and picked up 2-3 wickets in the first 15 overs of every game.

    PS: spinners actually would prefer 2 new balls as they can bowl with a ball that has prominent seam (thus better grip and better spin even in the latter part of the innings).
    what conventional swing? there would be conventional swing if we used white duke balls, but with the kookabura, there isnt any swing.

    and no, a spinner would prefer an older ball, much difficult to belt an old scuffed up ball than a brand new one. a newer ball is much easier to shine

    i remember wahab riaz getting the ball to reverse swing in odis when he burst onto the scene in 2010.
    since 2 new balls were implemented, he couldnt get the ball to move an iota and became toothless and now his career is over.

    compare pakistan's tour to england 2010 with 2016 to see the difference.

  45. #45
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    Okay. People have given all the reasons. But I will take a bite on solution.

    How about making players play 50 overs domestic games on a flatter surfaces? Most 50 overs games are played on slightly flatter surfaces. The guys you currently have, get bored as they play 5 overs, they play flashy shots to release pressure. Lots of release shots are played by set batsmen, the way Imam and Malik played. They were both set, but just played those shots to just get out of low scoring rate.

    How about practice mock 50 overs games to increase mental capacity to play for 50 overs. I believe most players have good fitness, but mental fitness to play for 50 overs is lacking. If I were coach, I would just create multiple scenarios for batters to be in game for 1:30 hours to 2 hours.

    Culture of indian batters are different, they are hungry for runs, ever since they hold a bat, they want to bat for as long as possible, as fast as possible comes very late in their mind. You will keep hearing records for most number of runs or longest inning being broken on media like every 3 months. It's because young minds are trained that way. So, you can't compare indian batsmen with pakistani batsmen.

    You need to develop a skill from the lot you got. Current pakistani players are not bad. They have all the skills in the world and world class bowlers to defend the total. That's why they still end up winning tournaments like Champions trophy.

    So, I would focus on what's lacking. And i think mental capacity to play 50 overs is lacking. The mental stamina to stay on crease as much as possible is lacking. That's why you see odd wins and failures against top sides. Not all playing XI players be allowed to go back and learn basics. Coach would just make scenarios, mock scenarios to increase concentration in players. And do this multiple times, few days before tournament starts. And then pick the playing XI who performed the most in those mock drills.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Okay. People have given all the reasons. But I will take a bite on solution.

    How about making players play 50 overs domestic games on a flatter surfaces? Most 50 overs games are played on slightly flatter surfaces. The guys you currently have, get bored as they play 5 overs, they play flashy shots to release pressure. Lots of release shots are played by set batsmen, the way Imam and Malik played. They were both set, but just played those shots to just get out of low scoring rate.

    How about practice mock 50 overs games to increase mental capacity to play for 50 overs. I believe most players have good fitness, but mental fitness to play for 50 overs is lacking. If I were coach, I would just create multiple scenarios for batters to be in game for 1:30 hours to 2 hours.

    Culture of indian batters are different, they are hungry for runs, ever since they hold a bat, they want to bat for as long as possible, as fast as possible comes very late in their mind. You will keep hearing records for most number of runs or longest inning being broken on media like every 3 months. It's because young minds are trained that way. So, you can't compare indian batsmen with pakistani batsmen.

    You need to develop a skill from the lot you got. Current pakistani players are not bad. They have all the skills in the world and world class bowlers to defend the total. That's why they still end up winning tournaments like Champions trophy.

    So, I would focus on what's lacking. And i think mental capacity to play 50 overs is lacking. The mental stamina to stay on crease as much as possible is lacking. That's why you see odd wins and failures against top sides. Not all playing XI players be allowed to go back and learn basics. Coach would just make scenarios, mock scenarios to increase concentration in players. And do this multiple times, few days before tournament starts. And then pick the playing XI who performed the most in those mock drills.
    The same team finds it easier to bat in test matches so I don't think batting for long periods is the problem, the problem is keeping up with the scoring rate in ODI's and batting at a modern RR and S/R is a problem on these slow grindy UAE pitches. Almost all major teams batting wise have struggled to score 300 runs on these pitches.

    For starters we can try to shift our cricket away from these UAE wickets somehow, it has destroyed the confidence of our batsmen and they no longer have the confidence to play their shots whereas the bowlers have this false sense of superiority with these decent economy rates. When a few games from the PSL shifted from the UAE to Pakistan, the difference in the pace, bounce in the wicket, outfield was astonishing and all of a sudden the batsmen were able to hit through the line easily and the economy rates of the bowlers skyrocketed.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    The same team finds it easier to bat in test matches so I don't think batting for long periods is the problem, the problem is keeping up with the scoring rate in ODI's and batting at a modern RR and S/R is a problem on these slow grindy UAE pitches. Almost all major teams batting wise have struggled to score 300 runs on these pitches.

    For starters we can try to shift our cricket away from these UAE wickets somehow, it has destroyed the confidence of our batsmen and they no longer have the confidence to play their shots whereas the bowlers have this false sense of superiority with these decent economy rates. When a few games from the PSL shifted from the UAE to Pakistan, the difference in the pace, bounce in the wicket, outfield was astonishing and all of a sudden the batsmen were able to hit through the line easily and the economy rates of the bowlers skyrocketed.
    UAE wickets can be flat. Pakistan batsmen struggle more against pace bowlers rather than spinners. The slowness of the pitch can be tackled by just having mental capacity to construct an inning. When I said learning to stay till 50 overs, means learning constructing inning. This you can learn by playing lots of practice games prior to tournament. There must a good reason why UAE is Pakistan's neutral home and not other country, financially speaking. If you do well in UAE in test where pitch gets even more slower on 4th and 5th day, there is no reason you can do it ODIs too.

    I also agree with @topspin post that order can be tweaked to get the most output from batsmen.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  48. #48
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    Some really sensible posts. I think i have come to the conclusion that Pakistan will never produce a team that will consistenly make big scores in ODIs against good teams. Even in the 90s when other sides were scoring 260 and winning, we were 20-30 runs behind them.

    We need to focus our energies on our bowling attack. Select good bowlers and have attacking field setting and try to choke the oppossition. I remember the old Pakistan used to take so many wickets between overs 30-40 (thanks to reverse swing, quality spinners and attacking field placings).

    May be we need to back Shadab Khan and Shaheen Afridi a bit more and give them role of getting us wickets in overs 30-40.

  49. #49
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    Fakhar
    Babar
    U Akmal
    Haris
    Malik
    Sarfraz
    Imad

    A batting line up like the one above is better and more capable of making bigger scores consistently feel like Akmal overall can do 40+/90+ stats in the top order as pitches have become flatter recently Babar and Haris can be a solid accumulators Fakhar/Akmal and Sarfraz to be more attacking with Malik milking the spinners in the middle overs.


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