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  1. #1
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    Melbourne attack: Man stabs three people before being shot by police

    One person has been stabbed to death and two others are in hospital after they were attacked on a shopping street in Melbourne, Australia.

    Police responded to reports a car was on fire but when they arrived discovered a man with a knife who lunged at the two officers several times.

    Video posted to social media of the incident showed the attacker repeatedly swinging the knife at officers, while a member of the public pushes a trolley into the attacker, knocking him over. Towards the end of the video, one of the police takes out a gun and shoots the knifeman.

    Victoria Police later confirmed the man had been shot in the chest and was in hospital in critical condition, while several others are being treated for stabbing injuries. Victoria's ambulance service said that three injured people were being treated at the scene.

    Superintendent David Clayton said at an impromptu press conference as the police were attempting to disarm the man, passers-by were shouting at them that people had been stabbed.

    One of the victims died at the scene while two others had been taken to hospital for treatment, he said.

    The police were not looking for anyone else over the incident and there was no known connection to terrorism yet, although "we will keep an open mind as to whether there is any link", he told reporters.

    Bomb disposal experts had now arrived and were working to make the area safe, while the fire brigade had put out the car on fire.

    Unconfirmed reports from the Australian broadcaster ABC suggest that the man crashed the car, jumped out and then threw an object inside the vehicle, setting it on fire.

    A section of Bourke Street, a major tram thoroughfare and one of the busiest streets in Melbourne's city centre, has been closed off to traffic and shoppers.

    One witness, who only gave the name Markel, said he ran out of a nearby shop and stumbled across one of the victims.

    "Turned out there was an old man in front of me, literally by my feet. He was face down, face down, and there was a lot of blood," he told the ABC. "I was already stepping on his blood.

    "There was a lot of bystanders trying to help him out. They didn't know what to do because obviously in that situation it is pretty crazy."

    Markel said other shoppers in the area were yelling out "just shoot him, just shoot him," while the two officers were trying to disarm the knifeman.

    Another witness, Aaksh Verma, said that he saw the man try and stab one of the police officers as soon as they arrived, while they were still inside their car.

    Once the officers got out of the car they used pepper spray and then a taser on the knifeman, but neither forced him to abandon his attack, he told The Guardian.

    The incident caused authorities to activate an automated alert system, sending messages to Melbourne citizens' phones warning them of "an incident at the corner of Bourke and Swanston streets" and urging them to "avoid the area".

    Police are extending a cordon of the area and Supt Clayton asked for anyone who had seen the incident and taken any photos or videos to come forward and share them with detectives.

    Australia has been on heightened alert from 2015 for attacks by home-grown militants returning from fighting in the Middle East.

    The street where the car caught fire was the scene in December 2017 of a fatal but not terror-related incident in which a man drove his car at pedestrians at high speed, killing six people and wounding about 30.

    Elsewhere in the city, a murder and armed siege by a man out of prison on parole was declared an "act of terrorism". Yacqub Khayre was shot dead by police after he had killed man inside an apartment block and then held a woman hostage inside.

    In 2014 an 18-year-old terror suspect was shot dead after stabbing two police officers during a counter-terrorism operation in the city.

    The Lord Mayor of Melbourne, Sally Capp, has praised residents of the city in a statement for how they dealt with the incident.

    "I’m proud of the way our community responded respectfully to police instructions at the scene. I know many of us will feel the impact of these terrible events and it’s important at these times that we pull together as a community and support one another.

    "Melburnians should be reassured by the rapid response from Victoria Police and emergency services who worked quickly, bravely and effectively to minimise harm to the public and contain the situation."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8625246.html


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  2. #2
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    So this one was terror related. Looks like the terrorists didn't want to be one upped by the insane.

    Terrorist - 1
    Mentally deranged - 1

  3. #3
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    Reports say that the attacker, now dead, was a refugee from Somalia. Well done to that man for attacking the very country that gave him refuge and in the process make life more difficult for other refugees in Australia.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Reports say that the attacker, now dead, was a refugee from Somalia. Well done to that man for attacking the very country that gave him refuge and in the process make life more difficult for other refugees in Australia.
    What an utter bufoon. What did he or anyone gain ekse from this pointless murder and assault.

  5. #5
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    So the religion of the terrorist is not mentioned. This only applies when the perpetrator is a Muslim.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    So the religion of the terrorist is not mentioned. This only applies when the perpetrator is a Muslim.
    You're complaining that a Muslim attackers religion wasn't mentioned in the article above? I am confused as to what it is you're complaining about.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickyG View Post
    You're complaining that a Muslim attackers religion wasn't mentioned in the article above? I am confused as to what it is you're complaining about.
    I am saying that had the perpetrator been a Muslim the whole world would be attacking Islam. We will have been told that the teachings of Islam is responsible for killing innocent people. When non-Muslim's commit such crimes there religious belief is never questioned. Then we are told that it was just a crazy man or "lone gunman" taking out his personal frustrations.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I am saying that had the perpetrator been a Muslim the whole world would be attacking Islam. We will have been told that the teachings of Islam is responsible for killing innocent people. When non-Muslim's commit such crimes there religious belief is never questioned. Then we are told that it was just a crazy man or "lone gunman" taking out his personal frustrations.
    He is a muslim.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I am saying that had the perpetrator been a Muslim the whole world would be attacking Islam. We will have been told that the teachings of Islam is responsible for killing innocent people. When non-Muslim's commit such crimes there religious belief is never questioned. Then we are told that it was just a crazy man or "lone gunman" taking out his personal frustrations.
    The guy was from Somalia, so he was Muslim.

    Now are you willing to have a go at the media again?

  10. #10
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    australian police are a lot better when labelling things terrorist or not. There is still alot of debate about the Sydney seige, and the guy who ran over 12 people last december was not designated as being terrorist, despite being a muslim, he had some big mental health and drug issues.

    While drugs and mental health appear to have played a part here, apparently this guys family was reported by other muslims as having issues and links to certain organisations. If they werent sure they wouldnt have labled it as a terrorist incident. This isnt america
    Last edited by pakistanigoneaussie; 10th November 2018 at 09:29.


    "Last time Uganda toured Canada, half their team ran away to start a new life" - cricfan967

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The guy was from Somalia, so he was Muslim.

    Now are you willing to have a go at the media again?
    Name:  Untitled.jpg
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    You were saying something about the media, is it?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistanigoneaussie View Post
    australian police are a lot better when labelling things terrorist or not. There is still alot of debate about the Sydney seige, and the guy who ran over 12 people last december was not designated as being terrorist, despite being a muslim, he had some big mental health and drug issues.

    While drugs and mental health appear to have played a part here, apparently this guys family was reported by other muslims as having issues and links to certain organisations. If they werent sure they wouldnt have labled it as a terrorist incident. This isnt america
    No, what they are is a bunch of incompetent officers who can't even disarm a guy with a knife without killing him (despite outnumbering the assailant)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    You were saying something about the media, is it?
    I wasn't, but PakLFC was. His words, not mine.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    No, what they are is a bunch of incompetent officers who can't even disarm a guy with a knife without killing him (despite outnumbering the assailant)
    It’s easy to say. Look at the video, they tried for a more than a minute to subdue him, apparently the taser didn’t work which can happen, plenty of videos of that online. Even then they kept trying, one of the officers gets cut up, after all that he gets shot.

    In America they would have unloaded a clip into him straight away

    If somebody wants to die, it’s hard to stop them


    "Last time Uganda toured Canada, half their team ran away to start a new life" - cricfan967

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The guy was from Somalia, so he was Muslim.

    Now are you willing to have a go at the media again?
    Yes! So he was a Muslim but why is the religion of non Muslim's not mentioned when they commit such crimes?


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    No, what they are is a bunch of incompetent officers who can't even disarm a guy with a knife without killing him (despite outnumbering the assailant)
    What a pathetic thing to say, only a bigoted uneducated fool could come to this conclusion.

  17. #17
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    australia trying to stay relevant.


    "Peace is only made with the powerful"

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    australia trying to stay relevant.
    Thought someone would come out in defence of this crazy person.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Yes! So he was a Muslim but why is the religion of non Muslim's not mentioned when they commit such crimes?
    You can get the answer through several threads and posts here itself, over the years. Muslims themselves say that they are Muslims first, Libyan / Omani / Pakistani later. On the other hand, a Nan Theow is not Buddhist first, Burmese later. A Harold is not Christian first, Canadian later. A Varun is not Hindu first, Indian later. You get the drift.

    In other words, the nationality of the attacker is mentioned when it comes to non-Muslims, but the religion is when it comes to Muslims. Both sets of attackers relate to different aspects of their personality during 'peacetime', and the media is just joining the dots - don't shoot the messenger.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Thought someone would come out in defence of this crazy person.
    @Gilly Glad you called him a CRAZY man, he is undoubtedly a crazy piece of **** but when this happened (right next to our workplace), we had this interesting debate at work whether this is going to be called a terrorist attack or craziness of mental patient. Of course the deciding factor was always going to be attacker's religion and they didn't disappoint us. Next day we saw headlines like:

    "Violent Islam strikes Bourke Street"
    "Islamic terrorist attacks Melbourne"

    This is DISGUSTING policy by media to purposely spread hatred. Dimitrious Gargasoulas who killed 6 people in same street last year had similar mental issues and intentions but he is not a terrorist no one called him Christian or Greek terrorist even though he had posted some religious material prior to committing this crime.

    I have come across details on social media (may not be true) that this so called Islamic terrorist haven't been to mosque for 2 decades and have been kicked out of home several times for his behaviour (mental issues) but hey let's call it "Violent Islam strike"

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You can get the answer through several threads and posts here itself, over the years. Muslims themselves say that they are Muslims first, Libyan / Omani / Pakistani later. On the other hand, a Nan Theow is not Buddhist first, Burmese later. A Harold is not Christian first, Canadian later. A Varun is not Hindu first, Indian later. You get the drift.

    In other words, the nationality of the attacker is mentioned when it comes to non-Muslims, but the religion is when it comes to Muslims. Both sets of attackers relate to different aspects of their personality during 'peacetime', and the media is just joining the dots - don't shoot the messenger.
    Some Muslim's may feel that way but not all. The ones who claim to be Muslim first mostly are not suicide bombers or murderers that they should be equated with such people. You may not be Hindu first but the likes of Modi and Adityanath are. We know what these two are all about yet the Hindu faith is never put to question.

    "In other words, the nationality of the attacker is mentioned when it comes to non-Muslims, but the religion is when it comes to Muslims" then why is the Muslim religion also mentioned when there are millions of nominal Muslims as well? Why should people like me who has never even been in a police station be made to feel guilty for some coreligionists crimes if you are not for Modi's? Why the double standards?. I am afraid the messenger here is the biased media who has it's own agenda to satisfy the Zionists. Lets not pretend otherwise.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Why should people like me who has never even been in a police station be made to feel guilty for some coreligionists crimes if you are not for Modi's?
    I guess this varies from person to person. I don't give two hoots about Modi or politics so I'm not guilty for any of his statements. I presume you don't give two hoots about some tinpot from Somalia, so why then are you falling prey to the folks who make you feel guilty for his actions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    @Gilly Glad you called him a CRAZY man, he is undoubtedly a crazy piece of **** but when this happened (right next to our workplace), we had this interesting debate at work whether this is going to be called a terrorist attack or craziness of mental patient. Of course the deciding factor was always going to be attacker's religion and they didn't disappoint us. Next day we saw headlines like:

    "Violent Islam strikes Bourke Street"
    "Islamic terrorist attacks Melbourne"

    This is DISGUSTING policy by media to purposely spread hatred. Dimitrious Gargasoulas who killed 6 people in same street last year had similar mental issues and intentions but he is not a terrorist no one called him Christian or Greek terrorist even though he had posted some religious material prior to committing this crime.

    I have come across details on social media (may not be true) that this so called Islamic terrorist haven't been to mosque for 2 decades and have been kicked out of home several times for his behaviour (mental issues) but hey let's call it "Violent Islam strike"
    Look if you want to defend him then good for you.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You can get the answer through several threads and posts here itself, over the years. Muslims themselves say that they are Muslims first, Libyan / Omani / Pakistani later. On the other hand, a Nan Theow is not Buddhist first, Burmese later. A Harold is not Christian first, Canadian later. A Varun is not Hindu first, Indian later. You get the drift.

    In other words, the nationality of the attacker is mentioned when it comes to non-Muslims, but the religion is when it comes to Muslims. Both sets of attackers relate to different aspects of their personality during 'peacetime', and the media is just joining the dots - don't shoot the messenger.
    Whether are not people identify with their religion first or their ethnicity is not the issue and neither do you know what people identify with on an individual level. If this attack was religiously motivated/had ties to islamic fundamentalists, then yes mentioning his religion would be appropriate. You miss the entire point.
    @PakLFC to answer your question, if this attack was religiously motivated then mentioning the religion would be right, the reason why the religion of a muslim is mentioned in attacks like these because many times over the past decade there have been attacks done in the name of Islam. That's all there is to it, ignore the comments.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Look if you want to defend him then good for you.
    Defend him really??

    I really expected better from you, not sure what part of my post is defending him???

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Defend him really??

    I really expected better from you, not sure what part of my post is defending him???
    You call it what it is, the police have had dealings with this person before. He tried to leave Australia to go to Syria to fight for ISIS because of his extreme religious views. This is getting ugly now because muslim leaders in Australia are now attacking the Prime minister of our country. This is going to get worse and its all down to the response from muslims.

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    The man had some serious mental health and drug issues and for the pm and **** dutton to make it into what Muslims aren't doing is just dog whistling 2 weeks before the vic state election.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salma_T View Post
    The man had some serious mental health and drug issues and for the pm and **** dutton to make it into what Muslims aren't doing is just dog whistling 2 weeks before the vic state election.
    Well muslims have to do something about the amount of people that get radicalized in their mosques. You cant just keep blaming everyone else.

  29. #29
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    Some Indian/Hindu nationalists, even those living in Australia, will use these incidents to drive forward their own agenda....

    They even defend Trump because of his anti Muslim / Pakistan stance.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Defend him really??

    I really expected better from you...

    I don't know why, fairly standard Gilly contributions to be honest. The terrorist must be representative of wider Muslim community, whereas the white gunman is a mentally deranged nutcase with no connections to anyone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Whether are not people identify with their religion first or their ethnicity is not the issue and neither do you know what people identify with on an individual level. If this attack was religiously motivated/had ties to islamic fundamentalists, then yes mentioning his religion would be appropriate. You miss the entire point.
    @PakLFC to answer your question, if this attack was religiously motivated then mentioning the religion would be right, the reason why the religion of a muslim is mentioned in attacks like these because many times over the past decade there have been attacks done in the name of Islam. That's all there is to it, ignore the comments.
    There are also attacks in the name of other religions as well. Come on we all know it so why remain in denial.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    I guess this varies from person to person. I don't give two hoots about Modi or politics so I'm not guilty for any of his statements. I presume you don't give two hoots about some tinpot from Somalia, so why then are you falling prey to the folks who make you feel guilty for his actions?
    Coz the media attacks what I believe in. I don't care about the Somalian but do care about Islam being constantly bashed.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You call it what it is, the police have had dealings with this person before. He tried to leave Australia to go to Syria to fight for ISIS because of his extreme religious views. This is getting ugly now because muslim leaders in Australia are now attacking the Prime minister of our country. This is going to get worse and its all down to the response from muslims.
    On the other side, family claims he has seen psychologist and psychiatrist (easily verifiable) and has suffered from mental health for many years. Friends claimed that he had been telling them someone was chasing him with spears. if this doesn't explain his mental condition, NOTHING will.
    As for Prime Minister, he is supposed to be representing ALL Australians and need to act a bit more maturely.

    You mention mosques radicalizing people which is true to some extent but massively exaggerated, for every idiot teaching hatred there are dozens who speak about positive contribution to society ( i know from personal experience).

    Posting hate filled headlines like "Violent Islam terror" is radicalizing millions as well.

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    A GoFundMe has raised more than $100k for the Bourke St ‘trolley man’

    A GoFundMe page set up for a homeless bystander dubbed “the trolley man” has smashed its original target by $95,000 and is still climbing.

    Michael Rogers, 46, attempted to help police officers stop Hassan Khalif Shire Ali during Friday’s Bourke Street terror attack by taking on the armed terrorist with a shopping cart.

    Mr Rogers, who is homeless with few possessions, began ramming a shopping trolley into the terrorist in a bid to help.

    “I threw the trolley straight at him, and I got him. I didn’t quite get him down, though. I’m no hero,” Mr Rogers told Seven News’ Robert Ovadia from the scene of the attack.

    Ovadia later told the program: “People think he deserves some sort of award for being a hero. He doesn’t see himself necessarily as a hero but believes he did help save lives and defend his city as well.”

    Mr Rogers yesterday told The Agehe “just wanted to help and do something right for the first time in my life”.

    Mr Rogers said he spent years behind bars for burglary and had a long history of drug use, according to the newspaper. It’s understood he has a public housing apartment but chooses to be homeless.

    In response to his heroic actions on Friday, a GoFundMe page was created by Melbourne Homeless Collective, a registered charity that supports people experiencing homelessness.

    National Homeless Collective founder and managing director Donna Stolzenberg said she was aware of Mr Rogers’ criminal and drug history and will work to connect him with homeless services and ensure the money is used in ways that will not put him at risk.

    The original fundraising target was set at just $5000 on November 10 but within hours an overwhelming amount of support prompted charity organisers to increase it to $45,000. That target was also soon exceeded with $106,217 raised in just over one day.

    “All funds donated to this campaign will go directly to Mr Rogers to help get him back on his feet,” the organisation’s site reads.

    “He’s a hero in our eyes and he can do what he feels best with any funds he receives. He risked his own life that day for nothing in return and you can’t put a price on that.”

    The charity has since expressed how blown away it is by everyone’s generosity and “spirit in helping our hero ‘Trolley man’ get back on his feet”.

    “We don’t actually have a set target to reach but due to the incredible generosity we’ve seen so far we’ll keep increasing the total accordingly,” the charity said.

    “We’ve far surpassed our original goal. Let’s aim for the sky. Our hero absolutely deserves it.”

    Hassan Khalif Shire Ali, 30, the terrorist behind Friday afternoon’s attack pulled up in Bourke Street in a four-wheel drive, containing gas cylinders in what police said was a failed plan to cause an explosion and maximise casualties.

    The Somalia-born Ali then stabbed three men, including much-loved 74-year-old Italian restaurateur Sisto Malaspina, who died at the scene. The two other victims are now recovering in Royal Melbourne Hospital.

    HOW TROLLEY MAN HELPED:

    The Sunday Herald Sun tracked down Mr Rogers on a park bench, amid a nationwide bid to find the humble hero, just 24 hours after he risked his life to save others.

    The newspaper reported that Mr Rogers was homeless, but wasn’t concerned when his phone was smashed during the fight, despite not having the means to replace it.

    Mr Rogers was one of two bystanders who stepped in as the killer tried to claim more victims in the city. Witness footage of the incident uploaded to social media showed Mr Rogers running to one side of the street to get the trolley before pushing it towards Ali who was wielding a knife and lunging at police.

    The trolley appeared to startle Ali before the man who pushed it tripped and fell to the ground. The terrorist then ran across the road, followed by police, as Mr Rogers got up and gave chase, pushing his cart towards the attacker a second time.

    His actions gained him widespread praise on social media by users who dubbed him “trolley man” and called for him to receive a medal or be made Prime Minister of Australia. Mr Rogers was reportedly unaware of the attention being heaped on him for his actions.

    One witness said she spoke to Mr Rogers at the scene and he told her his actions were “just instinctive to help the police protect the safety of others”, the Herald Sun reports.

    Mr Rogers told 7 News that he believes he did help save lives.

    “I’ve seen the trolley to the side so I’ve picked it up and I ran, threw the trolley straight at him, got him, but didn’t get him down,” he said.

    “I did that motion quite a number of times but it just wasn’t getting him down.”

    Moments later, Ali was shot in the chest by police, before he died in hospital last night.

    Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the Somali-born attacker, from Melbourne’s northwestern suburbs, had violated the nation’s trust.

    “The greatest threat of religious extremism in this country is the radical and dangerous ideology of extremist Islam,” he said.

    Mr Morrison said Ali was one of about 400 people on a national ASIO terror watch list.

    “Here in Australia we would be kidding ourselves if we did not call out the fact that the greatest threat of religious extremism in this country is the radical and dangerous ideology of extremist Islam,” Mr Morrison said.

    “There is a special responsibility on religious leaders to protect their religious communities and to ensure dangerous teachings and ideologies do not take root here.”

    In a press conference on Saturday, Victoria Police confirmed Ali had been known to intelligence agencies for years, but he was not being actively monitored prior to the attack.

    They said his passport was cancelled in 2015 after ASIO determined he was planning to travel to Syria.

    https://www.news.com.au/national/vic...e7631fb5b5cc71

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I am saying that had the perpetrator been a Muslim the whole world would be attacking Islam. We will have been told that the teachings of Islam is responsible for killing innocent people. When non-Muslim's commit such crimes there religious belief is never questioned. Then we are told that it was just a crazy man or "lone gunman" taking out his personal frustrations.


    Question yourself, how many Hindus in US/whole Europe/Australia ever killed the locals due to the Hindu religious brainwashing?

    OK, show me Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/any other religion (except Islam), where their followers started killing the locals while their religion tell so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Why should people like me who has never even been in a police station be made to feel guilty for some coreligionists crimes
    Counter Question: Why Islam allowed to take the women and children of enemies as slaves, despite their innocence?

    After victory, all the civilians, including all women, all children were made the slaves for whole of their life (actually their coming generations also born as slaves).

    Would you please tell me what was the mistake of all these women, all these children, all these civilians that they and their coming generations all were made slaves?
    Last edited by Azmi; 12th November 2018 at 08:30.

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    I rarely feel comfortable when islam is mentioned with these attackers but it is what it is. When these attackers are using religion as their source of inspiration or purpose for the attacks then why wouldn't you mention that in a news article.

    When attackers kill people in the US its made pretty clear that these people are usually right wing trump supporters and pro gun activists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    I rarely feel comfortable when islam is mentioned with these attackers but it is what it is. When these attackers are using religion as their source of inspiration or purpose for the attacks then why wouldn't you mention that in a news article.

    When attackers kill people in the US its made pretty clear that these people are usually right wing trump supporters and pro gun activists.
    The biggest problem I see is that there is a lot of lip service from the muslim community but no action. What they need to do is have some sort of method of approving imams and some way of making sure that without accreditation they dont get the chance to teach, mentor or represent islam. There is no governance within the religion as far as I can tell, no regulation and no defined regulation. There seems to be a multitude of representatives and some are even against each other.

    If there were Christians being radicalised then the church would be able to take control of what is being taught by priests and have some margin of control but islam seems to be adhoc and no one being able to give concise clear objectives of what the religion is about.

    I know that some here may have a clear and consistent vision of what islam is and means but it doesent take much to get a completely different slant from someone else. Its a changing story that gets very confusing and different answers depending on who you speak with or what area they come from. Islam has to gets its act together and provide a more solid form of leadership that inspires confidence in people that are not muslims.

    The representatives that have come out attacking the Prime Minister and demanding he apologises are out of line and have only inflamed the situation, they need to take a deep breath and look at the issue from the Australian peoples side and not the from a islamic side because to be an Australian you put your country before your religion.

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    guys stay on topic, if you want to discuss religion or God, there is a separate thread for it.


    When in Doubt- Act Stupid....... That's Pakistan Cricket for you.

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    Bourke Street attack: Morrison accused of 'scapegoating' Muslim community
    Bourke Street attack: Morrison accused of 'scapegoating' Muslim community

    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ndroidApp_Memo

    Yes Muslims do commit these.....you will never hear me defending the 7/7 guys or the liquid bomb plots but this situation is different. ISIS would claim anything regardless of the reality of the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    I rarely feel comfortable when islam is mentioned with these attackers but it is what it is. When these attackers are using religion as their source of inspiration or purpose for the attacks then why wouldn't you mention that in a news article.

    When attackers kill people in the US its made pretty clear that these people are usually right wing trump supporters and pro gun activists.
    To get real parity you would have to get Trump supporters described as white supremacists/racists or Christian terrorists. Instead they are given softer labels like Alt-right or pro-nationalists. These small but subtle differences is where double standards are creeping in.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Question yourself, how many Hindus in US/whole Europe/Australia ever killed the locals due to the Hindu religious brainwashing?

    OK, show me Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/any other religion (except Islam), where their followers started killing the locals while their religion tell so.
    ...and how many Hindu's and Sikhs have been bombed to death and killed in the Middle East, Africa, Kashmir and Afghanistan by NATO and India as well. You do realise that anger spills amongst those whose relatives have been victims of such atrocities?. I don't know any country like Iraq where 2 million people have been killed under the pretence that the country had weapons of mass destruction.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Counter Question: Why Islam allowed to take the women and children of enemies as slaves, despite their innocence?

    After victory, all the civilians, including all women, all children were made the slaves for whole of their life (actually their coming generations also born as slaves).

    Would you please tell me what was the mistake of all these women, all these children, all these civilians that they and their coming generations all were made slaves?
    Now you are talking about Islam the faith which is a different topic altogether. I don't know where you get this nonsense of generations being made slaves. If you want to talk about various systems in Islam then open another thread. This one is talking about something different. You fail to understand that life in ancient times was very different to what it is today. From what I know the Prophet(saw) encouraged people to free slaves. I am wondering what this has to do with one person today being made to feel guilty for their faith? Surely you realise people in other religions not commit massive cruelty as well.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Over the past 20 years or so "peaceful" Hindu's, Jews and Christians have killed millions more Muslim's then Muslim terrorists have killed non Muslim's.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...coverage-study
    http://columbanird.org/muslims-are-n...rists-muslims/
    Last edited by PakLFC; 12th November 2018 at 19:39.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Question yourself, how many Hindus in US/whole Europe/Australia ever killed the locals due to the Hindu religious brainwashing?

    OK, show me Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/any other religion (except Islam), where their followers started killing the locals while their religion tell so.
    What do you mean "your religion tell so?". So people from other faiths must also be killing others because there religion tells them to do that, right?


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    The peaceful Buddhists have also been killing Muslim's in Myanmar. All these peaceful people killing Muslim;s and when the Muslim's retaliate they are all then killing terrorists.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The biggest problem I see is that there is a lot of lip service from the muslim community but no action. What they need to do is have some sort of method of approving imams and some way of making sure that without accreditation they dont get the chance to teach, mentor or represent islam. There is no governance within the religion as far as I can tell, no regulation and no defined regulation. There seems to be a multitude of representatives and some are even against each other.

    If there were Christians being radicalised then the church would be able to take control of what is being taught by priests and have some margin of control but islam seems to be adhoc and no one being able to give concise clear objectives of what the religion is about.

    I know that some here may have a clear and consistent vision of what islam is and means but it doesent take much to get a completely different slant from someone else. Its a changing story that gets very confusing and different answers depending on who you speak with or what area they come from. Islam has to gets its act together and provide a more solid form of leadership that inspires confidence in people that are not muslims.

    The representatives that have come out attacking the Prime Minister and demanding he apologises are out of line and have only inflamed the situation, they need to take a deep breath and look at the issue from the Australian peoples side and not the from a islamic side because to be an Australian you put your country before your religion.
    I agree and this comes two things, a victim mentality and blindness to the facts. This is pretty much the status quo for most muslims. People are so busy trying to find faults in the way other people are portraying muslims that they forget that there is a problem within the community and therefore are unable to solve the issue.

    If you are ignorant to the problems within the community then how are you meant to solve any of it.

    In terms of Christianity, I wouldn't use the church as a standard for this as they are prone to covering up issues rather than saving them also (pedophilia).

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post

    In terms of Christianity, I wouldn't use the church as a standard for this as they are prone to covering up issues rather than saving them also (pedophilia).
    The Catholic church received an enormous amount of bad press over their handling of the pedophilia and from the public (even to this day). They didnt complain about the bad press but went about fixing the problem.

    If Islam wants to change the way it is portrayed in the media and community then they need to fix the problems that cause the bad press, criticism wont stop just because muslims don't like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The Catholic church received an enormous amount of bad press over their handling of the pedophilia and from the public (even to this day). They didnt complain about the bad press but went about fixing the problem.

    If Islam wants to change the way it is portrayed in the media and community then they need to fix the problems that cause the bad press, criticism wont stop just because muslims don't like it.
    Incorrect, I get what your trying to say but again I would say the church is a very very bad example. They hid the controversies under the carpet, they didn't tackle the issue head on. They didn't complain because there wasn't a smear on the religion itself (there is no justification in the bible for abusing young boys) mainly the blame was laid on priesthood and catholic schools.

    This is because the west has a better understanding of christianity and knows where the issue arises.

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    The conservative muslims are fine, they go on with their lives, live peacefully. However these extremist muslims, there is an islamic problem it seems in almost all western countries and it will ruin it for the conservative muslims who live their lives like every other ordinary citizens... I see videos on youtube in Hyde park in the UK and you see certain muslims trying to talk over every other person who wishes to have a decent debate, it is shocking to say the least, these ppl just dont get it, they are going to be an isolated community in the future......


    "Everything else seems so superfluous." ~ Albert Einstein on the Bhagavad-Gita

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    What a pathetic thing to say, only a bigoted uneducated fool could come to this conclusion.
    No, only a person who values merit and human life will come to this conclusion.

    I'm pretty scared now. Just imagine, Victoria's finest can't protect me from a guy with a knife without using a gun.

    They could've shot anywhere, literally ANYWHERE but they shot near his ribcage.

    Don't teach me about the security industry. By law, you are entitled to use THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE FORCE NEEDED in that situation. Using a gun in a knife fight isn't minimum possible force. It's clearly excessive force and proof that you aren't competent for the job.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    No, only a person who values merit and human life will come to this conclusion.

    I'm pretty scared now. Just imagine, Victoria's finest can't protect me from a guy with a knife without using a gun.

    They could've shot anywhere, literally ANYWHERE but they shot near his ribcage.

    Don't teach me about the security industry. By law, you are entitled to use THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE FORCE NEEDED in that situation. Using a gun in a knife fight isn't minimum possible force. It's clearly excessive force and proof that you aren't competent for the job.
    Watch the video of the incident and then put yourself in the police shoes, they dont have the option of running away like the public. You have no comprehension of the danger in this situation and no common sense, the police tried everything they could to disarm this man and were left with no option but to shoot.

    I can only assume there is something wrong with you to come to this conclusion, something is just not right with you.

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    @Gilly and let's not even get started on Islam and radicalism.

    How thick must you be to equate Islam and a violent muslim dude?

    If someone is vandalizing and threatening the community why does their religion come into perspective? Why can't you deal with it on an individual basis?

    There are 2 billion Muslims in the world. If Islam was "violent" there wouldn't be 5.2 billion non-muslims living peacefully around the globe.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    @Gilly and let's not even get started on Islam and radicalism.

    How thick must you be to equate Islam and a violent muslim dude?

    If someone is vandalizing and threatening the community why does their religion come into perspective? Why can't you deal with it on an individual basis?

    There are 2 billion Muslims in the world. If Islam was "violent" there wouldn't be 5.2 billion non-muslims living peacefully around the globe.
    I consider your slurs against the police that had to deal with this person as pure hatred and nothing less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Watch the video of the incident and then put yourself in the police shoes, they dont have the option of running away like the public. You have no comprehension of the danger in this situation and no common sense, the police tried everything they could to disarm this man and were left with no option but to shoot.

    I can only assume there is something wrong with you to come to this conclusion, something is just not right with you.
    Sir, I've lived in Karachi and have had a gun pointed on my mom so please don't teach me about the dangers of such situations. Random dodging hand movements don't equate to "tried everything they could". No armed person should run away from such a situation. That'd be pathetic. They could've shot anywhere but they went with shoot to kill

    Go on assuming things to protect your arrogant pride. You fail to admit that everyone from the police to the media and (unfortunately) even the PM has handled this matter in the worst possible way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I consider your slurs against the police that had to deal with this person as pure hatred and nothing less.
    I have nothing to hate them for. They failed to keep their heads in a pressure situation. Its called constructive criticism.

    I'm not bad-mouthing their community, morals or their religion like your PM is doing to us. That's called hatred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    No, only a person who values merit and human life will come to this conclusion.

    I'm pretty scared now. Just imagine, Victoria's finest can't protect me from a guy with a knife without using a gun.

    They could've shot anywhere, literally ANYWHERE but they shot near his ribcage.

    Don't teach me about the security industry. By law, you are entitled to use THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE FORCE NEEDED in that situation. Using a gun in a knife fight isn't minimum possible force. It's clearly excessive force and proof that you aren't competent for the job.


    Police made it's intention clear when they tried to control him earlier without using the gun. And one police officer got injured during this try. Reason is this that police had only pistols in hand which they were not using, while the attacker got the knife which he was using mercilessly. He attacked many times (8-9 times) with the knife, but still Police didn't shoot.

    But then he became so close to the already injured Police officer that he was in position of severely injuring him. At such close distance there is absolutely no problem in firing at any of the body part to get rid of the danger.

    Even the Law allows the Police to aim at any part of the body in such situations, and it is not incumbent upon the police to only fire upon the legs, which one could not aim so good in the danger situations as compared to the upper body.

    What Police did in this case is totally according to the law.

    And if you are **** off from this law and don't consider yourself safe, then you are fully free to move to any of your Muslim country where you feel yourself safer. You need not to stay any more in the Western country with police having this right to defend themselves against the mad attacker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    I have nothing to hate them for. They failed to keep their heads in a pressure situation. Its called constructive criticism.

    I'm not bad-mouthing their community, morals or their religion like your PM is doing to us. That's called hatred.
    This is not called positive criticism, but this is called the stupid criticism, which is against the law, which is insane.

    And you Pakistanis sent away all the Afghan refugees by saying that they were involved in the weapon smuggling and drugs and Mafia etc. Whey you talk about the dangers from a community then it is Halal, but when others talk about the dangers from your community, then it is Haram for the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    This is not called positive criticism, but this is called the stupid criticism, which is against the law, which is insane.

    And you Pakistanis sent away all the Afghan refugees by saying that they were involved in the weapon smuggling and drugs and Mafia etc. Whey you talk about the dangers from a community then it is Halal, but when others talk about the dangers from your community, then it is Haram for the others.
    I agree with you, crime is crime, whether it is perpetrated by a Muslim or a non-Muslim. It is pathetic to pick out Afghans as a community and target them as criminals, just as it is pathetic to pick out Muslims and do the same. This is stereotyping at it's most dangerous and we should all speak out against it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    ...and how many Hindu's and Sikhs have been bombed to death and killed in the Middle East, Africa, Kashmir and Afghanistan by NATO and India as well. You do realise that anger spills amongst those whose relatives have been victims of such atrocities?. I don't know any country like Iraq where 2 million people have been killed under the pretence that the country had weapons of mass destruction.
    If this is the case then Hindus must kill each and every Muslim in India, while Muslim Invaders like Ghaznavi killed millions of Hindus and made their women slaves and looted them for centuries. And still Indian Muslims praise Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb and take them as their hero.

    If Western people are criminal for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, why then to come to the European countries after "pledging" to respect the European Laws, but then start killing the innocent civilians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Over the past 20 years or so "peaceful" Hindu's, Jews and Christians have killed millions more Muslim's then Muslim terrorists have killed non Muslim's.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...coverage-study
    http://columbanird.org/muslims-are-n...rists-muslims/
    Your problem is this that you start the history from the last 20 years, but Buddhists fear the Muslims for their Barbarism, killings, making their women slaves for the last several hundred years which Muslims did in name of Jihad.

    And surely the number of killings by Muslims are 100s and 1000s of times more than any killing by the Buddhists.

    Persecution of Buddhists by Muslims

    Afghanistan

    Pakistan

    Bangladesh

    India

    Maldives

    Myanmar

    Thailand

    Xinjiang
    Last edited by Azmi; 13th November 2018 at 12:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Now you are talking about Islam the faith which is a different topic altogether. I don't know where you get this nonsense of generations being made slaves. If you want to talk about various systems in Islam then open another thread. This one is talking about something different. You fail to understand that life in ancient times was very different to what it is today. From what I know the Prophet(saw) encouraged people to free slaves. I am wondering what this has to do with one person today being made to feel guilty for their faith? Surely you realise people in other religions not commit massive cruelty as well.
    If you don't know the "Slavery by Birth" in Islam, then you don't know Islam yourself.
    If mods permit, then please do open up new thread upon the slavery in Islam, and I will show you the worst exploitation of the slaves in Islam as compared to the Buddhists and even Christianity and Judaism. And all the other cultures also freed the slaves, even the pre Islam Arab culture too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Police made it's intention clear when they tried to control him earlier without using the gun. And one police officer got injured during this try. Reason is this that police had only pistols in hand which they were not using, while the attacker got the knife which he was using mercilessly. He attacked many times (8-9 times) with the knife, but still Police didn't shoot.

    But then he became so close to the already injured Police officer that he was in position of severely injuring him. At such close distance there is absolutely no problem in firing at any of the body part to get rid of the danger.

    Even the Law allows the Police to aim at any part of the body in such situations, and it is not incumbent upon the police to only fire upon the legs, which one could not aim so good in the danger situations as compared to the upper body.

    What Police did in this case is totally according to the law.

    And if you are **** off from this law and don't consider yourself safe, then you are fully free to move to any of your Muslim country where you feel yourself safer. You need not to stay any more in the Western country with police having this right to defend themselves against the mad attacker.
    NOTHING was done to control the guy. Any bystander could do what those officers did without using their pistols. In fact, the "Trolley Man" was often closer to the attacker than police officers themselves. "Its the law" is not enough for me, show me exact section number of the law which allows police to shoot anywhere in such situations.

    And no, I'm not ****** off from "this law" because "this law" doesn't exist. Its not about Muslim or Western country you narrow minded douche. You seem to have a personal problem with Muslims which is unfortunate.

    Lastly, its my frikkin choice to stay legally wherever I want. No one decides that for me. No one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    NOTHING was done to control the guy. Any bystander could do what those officers did without using their pistols. In fact, the "Trolley Man" was often closer to the attacker than police officers themselves. "Its the law" is not enough for me, show me exact section number of the law which allows police to shoot anywhere in such situations.

    And no, I'm not ****** off from "this law" because "this law" doesn't exist. Its not about Muslim or Western country you narrow minded douche. You seem to have a personal problem with Muslims which is unfortunate.

    Lastly, its my frikkin choice to stay legally wherever I want. No one decides that for me. No one.

    Such legislations (as you claimed that police should shot only on arms or legs) were proposed, but then rejected in the light of the Professional Opinions.

    Arms and legs are the fastest moving parts of the body, and in tense situation it is difficult to aim at them successfully. Moreover, still there is a chance that the suspect could throw a knife at you and harm you even after being shot at the legs.

    Therefore, such legislations were rejected.

    https://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...or-tactically/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    If this is the case then Hindus must kill each and every Muslim in India, while Muslim Invaders like Ghaznavi killed millions of Hindus and made their women slaves and looted them for centuries. And still Indian Muslims praise Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb and take them as their hero.

    If Western people are criminal for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, why then to come to the European countries after "pledging" to respect the European Laws, but then start killing the innocent civilians?
    So were you alive when all that looting and plundering took place that you are so certain? There are 200 million Indian Muslim's today with conflicting views over past events just like any other community. In that case every Hindu should be punished for the Gujarat riots, Sikh genocide in 1984 and destruction of Babri as well. What you are saying is that it's right for today's Muslim's to be murdered over what the Muslim's of past centuries did shows your twisted and illogical thinking. To answer your question if the west had not murdered so many innocents then these people would not be coming here in the first place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Your problem is this that you start the history from the last 20 years, but Buddhists fear the Muslims for their Barbarism, killings, making their women slaves for the last several hundred years which Muslims did in name of Jihad.

    And surely the number of killings by Muslims are 100s and 1000s of times more than any killing by the Buddhists.

    Persecution of Buddhists by Muslims

    Afghanistan

    Pakistan

    Bangladesh

    India

    Maldives

    Myanmar

    Thailand

    Xinjiang
    What about the persecution of Muslim's by all other communities in the so called WOT? Ten times more Muslims have been killed so why will you not condemn that? Has any Muslim army invaded or killed non Muslims in modern times? The problem you have is going back thousands of years talking about a people who have nothing to do with living ones today. The incidents you are mentioning are individual discrimination cases of which Hindu India is a master off. The caste system of Hinduism discriminates against it's own people with thousands of Hindu Dalits seen as untouchable.

    "And surely the number of killings by Muslims are 100s and 1000s of times more than any killing by the Buddhists." Again you are talking of ancient times to justify violence where as I live in todays world. Christians have committed far more war crimes then Muslims have yet I don't hold the Christian faith responsible for this. If Muslim's are so bad then why do Hindu's and Buddhists go to Muslim countries to seek a better living standard?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    If you don't know the "Slavery by Birth" in Islam, then you don't know Islam yourself.
    If mods permit, then please do open up new thread upon the slavery in Islam, and I will show you the worst exploitation of the slaves in Islam as compared to the Buddhists and even Christianity and Judaism. And all the other cultures also freed the slaves, even the pre Islam Arab culture too.
    There is no such thing as "slavery of birth" in Islam that only exists in your mind! You fail to understand that that in ancient times in Arabia slaves could not be freed as you would like for it to be! The Dalits are slaves even today, we all know how many Muslims were enslaved during the crusades with the blessings of the Pope. Depends what your definition of slavery is here. No need to show me anything when I know all communities have committed crimes. It is obvious that you believe current people should continue tobe punished for the sins of forefathers that is absurd itself.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    What about the persecution of Muslim's by all other communities in the so called WOT? Ten times more Muslims have been killed so why will you not condemn that? Has any Muslim army invaded or killed non Muslims in modern times? The problem you have is going back thousands of years talking about a people who have nothing to do with living ones today. The incidents you are mentioning are individual discrimination cases of which Hindu India is a master off. The caste system of Hinduism discriminates against it's own people with thousands of Hindu Dalits seen as untouchable.

    "And surely the number of killings by Muslims are 100s and 1000s of times more than any killing by the Buddhists." Again you are talking of ancient times to justify violence where as I live in todays world. Christians have committed far more war crimes then Muslims have yet I don't hold the Christian faith responsible for this. If Muslim's are so bad then why do Hindu's and Buddhists go to Muslim countries to seek a better living standard?
    The problem does not changes with time limit as you would like them to be, while you want to forget the Muslim atrocities of the past centuries, while at the same time want to justify the extremism among Muslim masses in name of Afghanistan/Iraq.

    One of the main factor that you unable to comprehend is this that Christianity reformed itself in the present century and became harmless as a religion. Church has no power to harm the non Christians as it used to do in the past.

    But Islam is mostly incapable of reforming it.

    Result is masses of Muslims with Caliphate theory and imposing of Sharia all over the world by sword in order to fulfil the Allah's mission.

    Result is hundred thousand Muslims died in Islamic Pakistan, where Taliban were blaming Pakistani constitution for being Kafir and thus killing the Pakistani Muslims for their true Islamic Caliphate.

    Same Taliban continued killings of Muslims in Afghanistan again for establishing of their Islamic Caliphate.

    And ISIS killing Muslims, even the Salafi al-Nusra for their Caliphate.

    This Muslim madness is unparalleled in whole world.

    Thus all fear Islam even today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Such legislations (as you claimed that police should shot only on arms or legs) were proposed, but then rejected in the light of the Professional Opinions.

    Arms and legs are the fastest moving parts of the body, and in tense situation it is difficult to aim at them successfully. Moreover, still there is a chance that the suspect could throw a knife at you and harm you even after being shot at the legs.

    Therefore, such legislations were rejected.

    https://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...or-tactically/
    I never said that they should've shot on limbs only. First of all, I said they could've shot anywhere else non-lethally because I know that they're trained for it. Secondly, they had multiple options of disarming without using their guns as they outnumbered the assailant.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    I never said that they should've shot on limbs only. First of all, I said they could've shot anywhere else non-lethally because I know that they're trained for it.
    Please tell us, which part of the body you mean could be shot in tense situations non-lethally. Please indicate that part in light of expert opinions that it could bring the success.

    Secondly, they had multiple options of disarming without using their guns as they outnumbered the assailant.
    You could handle an assailant with knife better with trolley or something long, so that the distance increases.
    But police has to keep the pistol in hands while nobody knows if assailant also have a pistol or not.
    And with pistol in hand, they could not stop an assailant with knife.

    And normal police does not get enough training for such body contact fighting.
    It may be demanded from special police commandos, but not from normal police. Therefore, nobody made this allegation against them of controlling him using their body only, while law allows the normal police to shot in such situations without getting themselves involved in any danger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    What about the persecution of Muslim's by all other communities in the so called WOT? Ten times more Muslims have been killed so why will you not condemn that? Has any Muslim army invaded or killed non Muslims in modern times? The problem you have is going back thousands of years talking about a people who have nothing to do with living ones today. The incidents you are mentioning are individual discrimination cases of which Hindu India is a master off. The caste system of Hinduism discriminates against it's own people with thousands of Hindu Dalits seen as untouchable.

    "And surely the number of killings by Muslims are 100s and 1000s of times more than any killing by the Buddhists." Again you are talking of ancient times to justify violence where as I live in todays world. Christians have committed far more war crimes then Muslims have yet I don't hold the Christian faith responsible for this. If Muslim's are so bad then why do Hindu's and Buddhists go to Muslim countries to seek a better living standard?
    War on Terror started the violence. But Muslims killed most of the Muslims after that. The West is supplying weapons. Muslims are doing wonderful job of killing their own.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    The problem does not changes with time limit as you would like them to be, while you want to forget the Muslim atrocities of the past centuries, while at the same time want to justify the extremism among Muslim masses in name of Afghanistan/Iraq.

    One of the main factor that you unable to comprehend is this that Christianity reformed itself in the present century and became harmless as a religion. Church has no power to harm the non Christians as it used to do in the past.

    But Islam is mostly incapable of reforming it.

    Result is masses of Muslims with Caliphate theory and imposing of Sharia all over the world by sword in order to fulfil the Allah's mission.

    Result is hundred thousand Muslims died in Islamic Pakistan, where Taliban were blaming Pakistani constitution for being Kafir and thus killing the Pakistani Muslims for their true Islamic Caliphate.

    Same Taliban continued killings of Muslims in Afghanistan again for establishing of their Islamic Caliphate.

    And ISIS killing Muslims, even the Salafi al-Nusra for their Caliphate.

    This Muslim madness is unparalleled in whole world.

    Thus all fear Islam even today.
    I do not want to forget anything at all! What I am saying is that you can not punish a people over what their forefathers did. What problems are you talking about here? Muslim's are not the only ones who have a bloody past like you obviously believe. Even without religion people would still be killing each other. I not justifying anything but telling you how extremism started in Afghanistan and Iraq after the American invasions.

    Oh there are many extreme Christians off all kinds. The reason they are not fighting is because their countries are not under occupation. Name me one Christian country that is under Muslim occupation? Islam does not need to reform, Muslim's do.

    To say that Muslim's want to enforce Sharia when you don't know what Sharia is shows your logic. There may be a few idiots wanting this however the vast majority of Muslim's in non Muslim countries are not calling for this. You see a few Muslim's on the streets of western cities calling for it then conclude that we all want that. If they want it in their countries then let it be there business.

    As I have said before those killing Pakistanis were sponsored by the west. It has been well documented that these people you call Muslim's had skull and bones tattooed on them. Not saying that Pak does not have internal issues however at least do some research before you start writing. I am no fan off the Taliban at all let that be made clear neither do I agree with their tactics. These men are simply fighting for the country wanting to liberate it from occupiers. If you want to end this anger amongst Muslim's then free their countries otherwise the bloodshed will continue. Your hypocrisy is baffling when you say nothing against non Muslims killing Muslims anywhere.


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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    War on Terror started the violence. But Muslims killed most of the Muslims after that. The West is supplying weapons. Muslims are doing wonderful job of killing their own.
    That is coz these Muslim's see their co-coreligionists supported by the west as being their enemies as well. America plays both sides of the wicket so to speak. It arms the Afghan army to kill the Taliban who want to get rid of the occupational force. In all war zones America arms the side that benefits them.


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    Typical Muslims questioning our police force, when you can clearly see they tried everything to calm him down. Muslims will never change, always shift the blame, what I want to know is why these Muslims want to come to Australia if they hate us so much? Why don't they go back to their wonderful Muslim countries?

    Even our PM has lashed out against the Muslim leadership, they should all be deported from Australia, arrest the lot of them and send them packing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    To get real parity you would have to get Trump supporters described as white supremacists/racists or Christian terrorists. Instead they are given softer labels like Alt-right or pro-nationalists. These small but subtle differences is where double standards are creeping in.
    I disagree, I think the actual word is less relevant than the meaning behind the word. For example if you keep reporting mass shooters as alt-right, then that word "alt-right" because synonymous with mass shootings.

    I think where we might agree is the fact that a lot of terorrist's in the west are associated with mental health while it isn't given much credence when speaking of non western terrorists. I don't think this is distinguished by religion either because in Australia there was a deranged Muslim who took a bunch of people hostage in a cafe, even killing a few. His mental health was definitely a focal point, along with the religious inspiration of course.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I do not want to forget anything at all! What I am saying is that you can not punish a people over what their forefathers did.
    I pointed out to you people the Islamic Past, where you could have seen the same or even worse where women and children were made slave and were punished for their fathers and men. If a wave of right wing comes in Europe, then moderate Muslims will also suffer. It is unfortunate, but history is not telling us a lie.

    You seriously under estimate the situation in Europe. I don't think you have been to Europe and have not seen the FEARS which the locals have from their Muslim population. It never integrates in the local culture. And then there are even No GO Areas where Muslims have practically imposed their own system and all the locals running away from there. Even police does not want to enter there.

    What problems are you talking about here? Muslim's are not the only ones who have a bloody past like you obviously believe.
    But all have left the past except for the Muslims, who are super offensive and still believe in the Islamic Caliphate and system instead of the Secular system.

    Even without religion people would still be killing each other. I not justifying anything but telling you how extremism started in Afghanistan and Iraq after the American invasions.
    You may keep on calling it reaction of Afghanistan/Iraq, but it may be their beginning, but their final aim is only one, and that it imposing of Islamic Caliphate and Sharia.


    Oh there are many extreme Christians off all kinds. The reason they are not fighting is because their countries are not under occupation. Name me one Christian country that is under Muslim occupation? Islam does not need to reform, Muslim's do.
    No. None of the Christians today (irrespective of how much extremist they are) are demanding the Biblical Laws. They left the draconian biblical laws and follow the non religious Secularism system.


    To say that Muslim's want to enforce Sharia when you don't know what Sharia is shows your logic.
    This statement of yours is devoid of logic unfortunately.

    There may be a few idiots wanting this however the vast majority of Muslim's in non Muslim countries are not calling for this.
    These are not few idiots, but there were thousands and thousands of extremist Muslims who joined the ranks of ISIS from Europe. Many thousands were unable to join ISIS while Europe and Turkey closed the roads to ISIS.
    These few idiots were responsible for the 11th September attack.


    You see a few Muslim's on the streets owestern cities calling for it then conclude that we all want that. If they want it in their countries then let it be there business.
    Muslim youth are being radicalised at rapid pace. They are not few on the street, but they are many who are dreaming of Islamic Caliphate. They are not doing in the name of REVENGE, but they are doing it in name of imposition of Sharia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    I disagree, I think the actual word is less relevant than the meaning behind the word. For example if you keep reporting mass shooters as alt-right, then that word "alt-right" because synonymous with mass shootings.

    I think where we might agree is the fact that a lot of terorrist's in the west are associated with mental health while it isn't given much credence when speaking of non western terrorists. I don't think this is distinguished by religion either because in Australia there was a deranged Muslim who took a bunch of people hostage in a cafe, even killing a few. His mental health was definitely a focal point, along with the religious inspiration of course.
    Among Muslims, few suffered from mental diseases in the PAST too, but there were never such attacks at this level in the past.
    It shows something has changed.
    And when we consider how thousands and thousands of Muslims from Europe went to join ISIS, then it answers us about this change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    I pointed out to you people the Islamic Past, where you could have seen the same or even worse where women and children were made slave and were punished for their fathers and men. If a wave of right wing comes in Europe, then moderate Muslims will also suffer. It is unfortunate, but history is not telling us a lie.

    You seriously under estimate the situation in Europe. I don't think you have been to Europe and have not seen the FEARS which the locals have from their Muslim population. It never integrates in the local culture. And then there are even No GO Areas where Muslims have practically imposed their own system and all the locals running away from there. Even police does not want to enter there.



    But all have left the past except for the Muslims, who are super offensive and still believe in the Islamic Caliphate and system instead of the Secular system.



    You may keep on calling it reaction of Afghanistan/Iraq, but it may be their beginning, but their final aim is only one, and that it imposing of Islamic Caliphate and Sharia.




    No. None of the Christians today (irrespective of how much extremist they are) are demanding the Biblical Laws. They left the draconian biblical laws and follow the non religious Secularism system.




    This statement of yours is devoid of logic unfortunately.


    These are not few idiots, but there were thousands and thousands of extremist Muslims who joined the ranks of ISIS from Europe. Many thousands were unable to join ISIS while Europe and Turkey closed the roads to ISIS.
    These few idiots were responsible for the 11th September attack.



    Muslim youth are being radicalised at rapid pace. They are not few on the street, but they are many who are dreaming of Islamic Caliphate. They are not doing in the name of REVENGE, but they are doing it in name of imposition of Sharia.
    1) You mean Muslim not Islamic past in times when human rights were not observed by anyone. So if right wing in Europe makes everyone suffer then Christianity should be blamed as well? In that case feel free to blame Hindu fascists in India and say no to Ram Temple. I have not been to Europe because I live here!! It is true that many have turned area's in to ghetto's not because of Islam but lack of education amongst the people. We see that Muslim's are also prospering in Europe as well so there are always two sides to a coin.

    2) All have left the past? You gotta be kidding me that when Nazism is alive in the west and India has a Hindu nutcase as PM hell bent on Hindunising the country. As I said that only a few idiots want Sharia in Europe where as if they want it in Muslim countries then that is there choice, none of your business. Why does it bother you what system they implement the people implement in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq or Dubai??

    3) It is up to the Christians what system they want. I am no fan of right wing Christian nutcases but respect their right to speak. If they want a Christian system in Europe then that is up to them however I am told secularism is a Christian system then what's the problem? No one os stopping the Christians in implementing anything because most westerners are atheists not Christians. You obviously don't know that!!

    4) These people joined ISIS after seeing the west murder millions of innocent Muslim's in places like Iraq who were not even officially held responsible for 9/11. After killing million's of innocents in Iraq insisting they had WMD all we got was a "sorry" when it was all proved wrong? How would you feel if your family were innocently killed?

    5) You are in no position to tell us what Shariah is neither do you know why these people are being radicalised. I always say that there is nothing bigger then the law of the country so if these folk are a security risk then put them behind bars. If they want Sharia law then send them to a Muslim country as well. Sharia firstly has to be implemented in Muslim countries, it will never be enforced in the west.
    Last edited by PakLFC; Yesterday at 02:14.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmi View Post
    Among Muslims, few suffered from mental diseases in the PAST too, but there were never such attacks at this level in the past.
    It shows something has changed.
    And when we consider how thousands and thousands of Muslims from Europe went to join ISIS, then it answers us about this change.
    You are looking at this from a micro level rather then macro level.

    Mental health doesn't always attach itself to a specific behaviour. The behaviour is usually influenced by the mentally ill person's surroundings and perception of reality.

    If there is a rise is white supremacy at mass scale (or calls for an islamic caliphate), then mentally ill people are the easiest to coerce into these extremist views due to the paranoia based thought patterns of these extreme views.

    The rise is gun violence isn't a coincidence just as the rise in islamic terrorism isn't a coincidence, these are based on macro level cultural shifts, which subsequently shift social views.

    Now i am definitely not saying that all these people travelling to Syria are mentally ill. There is much to be assessed of islam and how it has to integrate into modern society.

    But to blame it solely on religion is incorrect as then there would be a lot more terror world wide and there would also be a lot more terrorists on this forum.


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