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  1. #1
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    Forgotten Muslim soldiers of World War One 'silence' far right

    An interesting piece from the BBC.



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    Forgotten Muslim soldiers of World War One 'silence' far right

    A hundred years since the end of World War One, historians think recognising the contribution of Muslims can help tackle contemporary issues such as Islamophobia.

    "Muslim soldiers have been forgotten about over time," Hayyan Bhabha, from the Muslim Experience, says.

    "The core far-right narrative is that Muslims have never done anything for us.

    "Well, actually, with facts that are over 100 years old, we can say Muslims fought and died for the history and security of Europe."

    It is estimated that 1.5 million Indian troops fought to defend Britain. Of those, 400,000 were Muslim soldiers.

    The Muslim Experience is working to highlight the global contribution of Muslim soldiers to World War One and says raising awareness could silence anti-Muslim rhetoric by far-right groups in Britain today.

    Mr Bhabha says his team is now opening up documents and discovering new information about their role in the War.

    "Accessing archives from 19 countries, we have discovered that more than four million Muslims either fought or served as labourers during the War, from around the world," he says.

    One of those was Sepoy Khudadad Khan, an Indian soldier who fought alongside British troops.

    He was the sole survivor of a team assigned to defend vital ports in France and Belgium from German forces.

    According to accounts, Khan managed to hold off the enemy advance long enough for British reinforcements to arrive.

    On 31 October 1914, Khan, of the 129th Duke of Connaught's Own Baluchis Regiment, became the first South Asian to receive the Victoria Cross, Britain's highest military honour.

    'Feel more British'
    Groups such as the Muslim Experience want stories of soldiers to be heard.

    They also want more British Muslims to find out if they have a personal connection to World War One.

    Just as a local GP in Nottingham, Dr Irfan Malik, did after he had a chance conversation with a patient that led him to discover two of his great-grandfathers had fought for Britain.

    Dr Malik's great-grandparents, Capt Ghulam Mohammad and Subedar Mohammad Khan, were two of 460 soldiers from a tiny village called Dulmial, in modern-day Pakistan, sent to fight in the 1914-18 conflict.

    "One of my patients is a researcher of Commonwealth contribution to World War One and I told him about a village in modern-day Pakistan where I'm from that has a cannon commemorating the Great War," he says.

    "From that point four years ago, my journey began and I found out my two great-grandparents fought for Britain.

    "I'm very fortunate to have images from 100 years ago. It means a huge amount to me. It's made me feel more British as we have this shared history in common and I believe it helps community cohesion."

    But how connected do British Muslims feel to the War and how aware is the community itself of its links to British military history?

    Mr Bhabha thinks some young Muslims in particular are not engaged with British military history.

    "Most Muslims are not engaged with military history because they can't relate to it," he says. "The way it is taught currently is very European-centric.

    "The history that is taught doesn't show the true diversity of everyone that took part in the First World War."

    A study by think tank British Future found just 22% of people in Britain knew Muslims had fought in the Great War.

    So, it has launched a campaign, Remember Together, to raise awareness in schools.

    Steve Ballinger, from British Future, says: "Finding out that Muslim soldiers fought and died for Britain to protect us and to protect the freedoms we enjoy today, that's an important history for everyone to know."

    It has certainly meant a lot to Daleesha Naz, 14, of Eden Girls School, in east London.

    "Today I learned that 400,000 Muslims fought in the British Indian army and it has made me feel closer and more connected to British history," she says.

    As the 100th anniversary of the end of World War One is remembered, historians, campaigners, and descendants of the soldiers are making sure the contribution of Muslims is never forgotten.

    Luc Ferrier, who chairs Forgotten Heroes 14-19 - the umbrella group for the Muslim Experience - says: "If the world really wants to reach out to the international Muslim community, then they need to know the enormous contribution these people have made, fighting a war none of their making.

    "Only by recognising and honouring the global Muslim sacrifices, not only these of the British colonies, we are reaching out to them and saying a genuine thank you".

    [url]https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-46124467


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  3. #3
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    This is amazing - never knew that.


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  4. #4
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    Far right of Europe you mean!!!
    Imran Khan can be argued to be a far right too!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonmoy View Post
    Far right of Europe you mean!!!
    Imran Khan can be argued to be a far right too!!
    It depends who is doing the arguing. It could also be argued he is far left compared to many of his countrymen. You are comparing apples and oranges.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It depends who is doing the arguing. It could also be argued he is far left compared to many of his countrymen. You are comparing apples and oranges.
    I am not really...

    1.Define "Far Right"
    2.Make a checklist
    3.See which ones are ticked by Imran Khan (2018 version) through his friends and policies.

    You will see that IK is a far right!

  7. #7
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    My great grandfather took part in the Mesopotamian campaign during the war.
    Won Indian Distinguished Service Medal for his services and valour displayed on the field..


    Tazimi Sirdar

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonmoy View Post
    I am not really...

    1.Define "Far Right"
    2.Make a checklist
    3.See which ones are ticked by Imran Khan (2018 version) through his friends and policies.

    You will see that IK is a far right!
    That's your definition, for it to mean anything I would have to compare to your background and beliefs. So for your checklist I will need

    Your nationality
    religion/lack of
    current residence


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    That's your definition, for it to mean anything I would have to compare to your background and beliefs. So for your checklist I will need

    Your nationality
    religion/lack of
    current residence
    No you do not need to know anything about me.
    T
    he definition of far right is : far right
    1.
    the extreme right wing (the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system) of a political party or group.

    Now lets look at Imran Khan
    1/ He caters to the extreme right wing groups.
    2/ His policy of not assigning the best economist in the country with a position in the government purely based on religion is exactly what you expect from someline like Marie Le Pen or Adam Walker.
    3/ His policy of not protecting minority rights, and trying to give in to the demand of moulavis (regarding Asia bibi) is ultra right wing policy
    4/ He was previously regarded as extremely lenient towards to talibans. To a point where people started calling him taliban khan.
    IF he is not right wing, than no one is right wing.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonmoy View Post
    No you do not need to know anything about me.
    T
    he definition of far right is : far right
    1.
    the extreme right wing (the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system) of a political party or group.

    Now lets look at Imran Khan
    1/ He caters to the extreme right wing groups.
    2/ His policy of not assigning the best economist in the country with a position in the government purely based on religion is exactly what you expect from someline like Marie Le Pen or Adam Walker.
    3/ His policy of not protecting minority rights, and trying to give in to the demand of moulavis (regarding Asia bibi) is ultra right wing policy
    4/ He was previously regarded as extremely lenient towards to talibans. To a point where people started calling him taliban khan.
    IF he is not right wing, than no one is right wing.
    Please shut up and ask Mariam bibi to end your pay packet as your doing a rubbish job. Stick to the topic.

  11. #11
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    Coming onto the issue at hand, Im surprised more Muslims of subcontinental heritage dont know this. Members of my family fought in WW2. My grandfather fought against the japanese in Burma and when defeated had to march all the way back to british lines with his white officers. They lost their shoes in the jungle and the soles on their feet dissappeared too..they barely made it back..

    My dads two uncles died in fighting probably on the Burmese front too and their brother fought Rommel in Libya. He was captured but eventually was freed. The British gave him full citizenship and an army pension.

    I have read about Khudadada Khan who is commemorated by the Pakistan Army. I believe he was from KP province but I'm not 100% sure.

    We also have Noor Inayat Khan who became a super spy during the second war too..

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonmoy View Post
    No you do not need to know anything about me.
    T
    he definition of far right is : far right
    1.
    the extreme right wing (the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system) of a political party or group.

    Now lets look at Imran Khan
    1/ He caters to the extreme right wing groups.
    2/ His policy of not assigning the best economist in the country with a position in the government purely based on religion is exactly what you expect from someline like Marie Le Pen or Adam Walker.
    3/ His policy of not protecting minority rights, and trying to give in to the demand of moulavis (regarding Asia bibi) is ultra right wing policy
    4/ He was previously regarded as extremely lenient towards to talibans. To a point where people started calling him taliban khan.
    IF he is not right wing, than no one is right wing.
    This is nonsense. If he gave in, he could have asked for a re-trial in order to appease them. Also he told those protesting and blockading roads with their antics would face the full force of the law.

    You've been brainwashed by Indian news channels - funnily enough a fair few Indian posters on here during the elections cited their disapproval of their coverage.
    Last edited by topspin; 12th November 2018 at 17:01.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    This is nonsense. If he gave in, he could have asked for a re-trial in order to appease them. Also he told those protesting and blockading roads with their antics would face the full force of the law.

    You've been brainwashed by Indian news channels - funnily enough a fair few Indian posters on here during the elections cited their disapproval of their coverage.
    Why is she barred from leaving the country? Did the demo stop based on his threat or did he appease the leaders in the demo and gave in to their demands.

    On topic: I am not sure if anyone assumed that no muslims fought in WWI .. I use the time of the year to remember every soilder in all wars who fought for the right reason.

  14. #14
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    I feel sorry for all the brave men who lost their life in this war. A war which was never needed, total waste of life and destruction for nothing.

    A lot of the Indian soldiers, Muslims and others were forced to fight for their colonial ruler.


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  15. #15
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danda_Shah_Bilawal


    Danda means "small hill" while Shah comes from the name of a local saint Noori Shah Sultan Bilawal. Noori Shah visited this village and then stayed here. Bilawal was a blacksmith who was a native of Danda and host of Noori Shah Sultan. Therefore, the name of the village was later changed from Danda to Danda Shah Bilawal.

    Danda Shah Bilawal has a population of around 17,000.[2] Its inhabitants are mostly Punjabis.

    70% peoples are rich and 20% peoples are middle class and 10% peoples are normal.

    The village has strong militarist traditions and many local men have traditionally been soldiers by profession.[citation needed] Around forty people from Danda Shah Bilawal took part in World War I and two were killed in action.

    It is also said that the grave of a forefather of a former president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari, is also there in the old graveyard.[c
    Last edited by MenInG; 12th November 2018 at 17:53.


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  16. #16
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    Source twitter


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  17. #17
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    This is heartbreaking, our forefathers died fighting someone else's war in a land thousands of miles away from home. Away from family, most of them against their will, in some cold alien bunker in Europe, all but forgotten today.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    This is heartbreaking, our forefathers died fighting someone else's war in a land thousands of miles away from home. Away from family, most of them against their will, in some cold alien bunker in Europe, all but forgotten today.
    It's not taught in schools in the UK and most likely in Europe too. The average westerner grows up believing it was the white western man who saved everyone from tyranny and people from other races should be grateful to them because otherwise they wouldn't be here now. The truth is if it wasnt for the brown and black men of the British empire it would have been a longer and more bloody war for the people living in Britain. Nazi Germany was never going to win this war, they weren't such a great army to begin with.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    This is amazing - never knew that.
    My wifes great uncle was in the Indian Army around that time and the chances are that he saw action in the 1st world war.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I feel sorry for all the brave men who lost their life in this war. A war which was never needed, total waste of life and destruction for nothing.

    A lot of the Indian soldiers, Muslims and others were forced to fight for their colonial ruler.
    That is true for nearly every war ever fought. Nobody was forced to join the army but it was seen as a way out of desperate poverty. My dad and my uncle were in the army and my dad was in Burma and fought against the Japanese. Had he not been in the army, he would have been in absolute poverty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Coming onto the issue at hand, Im surprised more Muslims of subcontinental heritage dont know this. Members of my family fought in WW2. My grandfather fought against the japanese in Burma and when defeated had to march all the way back to british lines with his white officers. They lost their shoes in the jungle and the soles on their feet dissappeared too..they barely made it back..

    My dads two uncles died in fighting probably on the Burmese front too and their brother fought Rommel in Libya. He was captured but eventually was freed. The British gave him full citizenship and an army pension.

    I have read about Khudadada Khan who is commemorated by the Pakistan Army. I believe he was from KP province but I'm not 100% sure.

    We also have Noor Inayat Khan who became a super spy during the second war too..
    My grandfather was in the Royal Indian Army and fought on the Burmese front. He was was left behind! Evaded Japanese as well as other hostile indigenous tribes (some cannibal) and the jungle for almost 6 months before he made it back to India. I grew up hearing those stories over and over again

  22. #22
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    nothing silences the far right. These are people who proudly wear poppies while having swastikas tattoed onto their necks. This form of stupidity can never be silenced


    See You Space Cowboy....

  23. #23
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    They didn’t have a choice.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrez Pakistani View Post

    They didn’t have a choice.

    Interesting, this is precisely what I was going to ask ....

    That Desi Muslims that time had a deep admiration for Ottoman empire, and the WW1 meant Brits fought against the Ottomans, so maybe a lot of Muslim soldiers fought unwillingly...

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    Many Tamil soldiers died in Burma, numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Many couldn't come back and hence stayed back over there working menial jobs. Later the Burmese military launched a genocide campaign against them (and other South Asians), 4-5 decades ago. Even today they are discriminated against, what Rohingyas are facing now Tamils had to endure in the past, disgraceful country that Myanmar.

  26. #26
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    We have a plague in our village re the soldiers who went to WW1 and my own grandfather fought in Burma and if it wasn't for the Indian soldiers it could have been a different story. My nana refused as he didn't want to fight the Brits war so there was choice. Years later found out my husband's grandad also fought but was captured by the Japanese (Aussie soldier) it is the story of empire I guess.

  27. #27
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    Gurkha soldiers have been remembered at the Australian war memorial and have been part of remembrance day for as long as I can remember.

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  29. #29
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    Indian Soldiers won a total of 11 Victoria Crosses for their sacrifice in World War 1.
    Out of them 3 were Muslims(2 Rajputs), 6 were Hindu Rajputs and 2 were Gurkhas.

    Therefore out of total 11 VCs, 8 went to Rajputs (6 Hindus+ 2 Muslims).

    Muslim VCs:

    Khudadad Khan: First Indian VC winner. He was a Minhas Muslim Rajput from Punjab.

    Mir Dast: He was a Pashtun from Peshawar.

    Shahamad Khan: Again a Punjabi Muslim Rajput from Rawalpindi.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  30. #30
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    Khudadad Khan was awarded the medal on the same day as Darwan Singh Negi VC; but is regarded as the first Indian recipient, as the latter's VC action was of later date.


    Tazimi Sirdar

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    There is a memorial in Neuve-Chapelle, France, honoring Indian soldiers who died during WWI.
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A...Neuve-Chapelle

    Of course, it honors Indian soldiers in general and not specifically the Muslim ones. Most Indians who fought there were Sikhs.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Indian Soldiers won a total of 11 Victoria Crosses for their sacrifice in World War 1.
    Out of them 3 were Muslims(2 Rajputs), 6 were Hindu Rajputs and 2 were Gurkhas.

    Therefore out of total 11 VCs, 8 went to Rajputs (6 Hindus+ 2 Muslims).

    Muslim VCs:

    Khudadad Khan: First Indian VC winner. He was a Minhas Muslim Rajput from Punjab.

    Mir Dast: He was a Pashtun from Peshawar.

    Shahamad Khan: Again a Punjabi Muslim Rajput from Rawalpindi.
    Trust you to keep the tally of rajput figures do you actually have a list of all things rajput?

    There is a recipient of VC from our clan from WW2 though.. He was Hindu.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    That seems like the world's smallest memorial plaque!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Trust you to keep the tally of rajput figures do you actually have a list of all things rajput?

    There is a recipient of VC from our clan from WW2 though.. He was Hindu.
    Lala Singh from Kangra also won VC in WW1. Think he was a Katoch too.

    Anyway it's just a hobby of mine. Find it all fascinating.


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    It's not taught in schools in the UK and most likely in Europe too. The average westerner grows up believing it was the white western man who saved everyone from tyranny and people from other races should be grateful to them because otherwise they wouldn't be here now. The truth is if it wasnt for the brown and black men of the British empire it would have been a longer and more bloody war for the people living in Britain. Nazi Germany was never going to win this war, they weren't such a great army to begin with.
    people forget that it was the red army that won the war in Europe. If they hadn't broken the Nazis at Stalingrad and broken through the eastern front lines, the war would have carried on and Hitler may even have achieved a peace of sorts with most of Germany intact. Also Churchill's reading of Hitlers personality also helped. He provoked Hitler into concentrating on bombing London in revenge for RAF attacks on German cities. His officers wanted to take out the mysterious "radar towers" that had begun to appear on British soil and carry out other raids on Military infrastructure..

    If Hitler had listened to them Britain was done for..and Europe would have been split between the red army and the nazis..

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Gurkha soldiers have been remembered at the Australian war memorial and have been part of remembrance day for as long as I can remember.
    Ah yes, those famous Muslim Gurkhas.


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  37. #37
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    The Indian soldiers in ww1 were absolutely instrumental in defence of allies. The first Indian to receive Victoria Cross was Muslim, this was relatively hidden until very recently...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    people forget that it was the red army that won the war in Europe. If they hadn't broken the Nazis at Stalingrad and broken through the eastern front lines, the war would have carried on and Hitler may even have achieved a peace of sorts with most of Germany intact. Also Churchill's reading of Hitlers personality also helped. He provoked Hitler into concentrating on bombing London in revenge for RAF attacks on German cities. His officers wanted to take out the mysterious "radar towers" that had begun to appear on British soil and carry out other raids on Military infrastructure..

    If Hitler had listened to them Britain was done for..and Europe would have been split between the red army and the nazis..
    True, I was talking from the British perspective but it's also incorrect history to say Hitler and the Nazi party where a great power. Their technology was weak compared to the Allies, most of their soldiers were on foot or horseback not in tanks etc.

    The bigger issue why fascism rose in Germany? It was because of world war 1 and why did this war even take place? Does anybody know on here? @Robert @James


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    True, I was talking from the British perspective but it's also incorrect history to say Hitler and the Nazi party where a great power. Their technology was weak compared to the Allies, most of their soldiers were on foot or horseback not in tanks etc.

    The bigger issue why fascism rose in Germany? It was because of world war 1 and why did this war even take place? Does anybody know on here? @Robert @James
    Germans were ultimately responsible through their expansionist greed but not the solely responsible party of course.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Germans were ultimately responsible through their expansionist greed but not the solely responsible party of course.
    Before WW1 Germany was a growing power, it was becoming economically very strong. Can you expand why you believe there should have been war against Germany(WW1) and who were they threatening?


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    True, I was talking from the British perspective but it's also incorrect history to say Hitler and the Nazi party where a great power. Their technology was weak compared to the Allies, most of their soldiers were on foot or horseback not in tanks etc.

    The bigger issue why fascism rose in Germany? It was because of world war 1 and why did this war even take place? Does anybody know on here? @Robert @James
    It was because the Treaty of Versailles had hamstrung the Germans too much, the price of defeat was heavy, France wanted to make sure Germany could never threaten again. Throw in hyper inflation in between the wars, Munich beer hall putsch(sp?).and the rest is history.

    Hitler talked about lebenstraum (sp) and invaded Czech and Britain vowed if it happened to Poland, UK would be at war.
    Last edited by Devilsadvokat; 13th November 2018 at 19:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsadvokat View Post
    It was because the Treaty of Versailles had hamstrung the Germans too much, the price of defeat was heavy, France wanted to make sure Germany could never threaten again. Throw in hyper inflation in between the wars, Munich beer hall putsch(sp?).and the rest is history.

    Hitler talked about lebenstraum (sp) and invaded Czech and Britain vowed if it happened to Poland, UK would be at war.
    To clarify I was asking why did WW1 take place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    True, I was talking from the British perspective but it's also incorrect history to say Hitler and the Nazi party where a great power. Their technology was weak compared to the Allies, most of their soldiers were on foot or horseback not in tanks etc.

    The bigger issue why fascism rose in Germany? It was because of world war 1 and why did this war even take place? Does anybody know on here? @Robert @James
    Poverty

    Widespread feeling of humiliating terms for the end of war

    The crazy aspect is that historic alliances were called in and low and behold the continent of Europe was at war.

    Even crazier, the Keizer of Germany and king George of UK were first cousins!! Both grandkids of Queen Victoria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    To clarify I was asking why did WW1 take place.
    Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsadvokat View Post
    Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand
    Yes a Serb killed him and as they are close to Russia it caused tensions with Austria-Hungry & Germany.

    The Germans did offer a peace plan, the end to the war and it's strange Britain refused this. Do you know why?


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    To clarify I was asking why did WW1 take place.
    A mixture of colonial greed and toxic nationalism would be the main reason. Every major power had its own goals and created a complex web of alliances to achieve them.

    Germany's Kaiser Wilhelm II had expansionist goals coveting the vast resources Britain and France controlled. They embarked on a massive arms race with Britain, and saw France and Russia preparing for war too hence the doctrine of pre-emptive warfare - attack sooner otherwise the arms gap would be too big.

    France wanted revenge for its humiliating defeat in the 1870/71 Franco-Prussian war that saw Paris besieged and the loss of Alsace-Lorraine.

    Russia saw the potential to expand through the Balkans with the collapsing Ottoman Empire and had an alliance with the Slavs, namely Serbia.

    Britain wanted to keep the old balance of power in Europe and felt threatened by an enlarged German Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Poverty

    Widespread feeling of humiliating terms for the end of war

    The crazy aspect is that historic alliances were called in and low and behold the continent of Europe was at war.

    Even crazier, the Keizer of Germany and king George of UK were first cousins!! Both grandkids of Queen Victoria.
    Dont forget dear Nicky from Russia- also a cousin. This Sounds more like a Desi fight over land rather a conflict that led millions of innocent people dying

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    A mixture of colonial greed and toxic nationalism would be the main reason. Every major power had its own goals and created a complex web of alliances to achieve them.

    Germany's Kaiser Wilhelm II had expansionist goals coveting the vast resources Britain and France controlled. They embarked on a massive arms race with Britain, and saw France and Russia preparing for war too hence the doctrine of pre-emptive warfare - attack sooner otherwise the arms gap would be too big.

    France wanted revenge for its humiliating defeat in the 1870/71 Franco-Prussian war that saw Paris besieged and the loss of Alsace-Lorraine.

    Russia saw the potential to expand through the Balkans with the collapsing Ottoman Empire and had an alliance with the Slavs, namely Serbia.

    Britain wanted to keep the old balance of power in Europe and felt threatened by an enlarged German Empire.
    Was this an aggressive move or a threatening move which after the assassination required a war on such a massive scale?


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    The bottom line is this was a family feud over land, power and resources. It was a war to maintain imperial ambitions and also had metaphysical implications related to Christian and Islamic escatology.

    Lets just say this war changed the world and is the first of the great wars to come.

    Coming onto @KingKhanWC and your claim about Germany. Their tanks were better than the french tanks, their soldiers were better trained, they perfected the art of mechanised infantry warfare and introduced it to the world. By the end of the war german tanks were formidable war machines that were highly sophisticated and were outgunning and destroying allied tanks but were outnumbered by soviet and allied machines due to the destruction of their factories.

    Ultimately the German army should have won the eastern front and signed a peace with Stalin. Also if they had taken out the radar installations on the channel coast they would have signed a peace with the UK.

    But God swt works and plans too and if you look at the pivotal events they are riddled with human error, emotion and fate. The outcome of the war hinged on pivotal moments that changed the face of the world. Hitlers ignorance during the eastern front campaign, his personality and incompetence also played a part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    The bottom line is this was a family feud over land, power and resources. It was a war to maintain imperial ambitions and also had metaphysical implications related to Christian and Islamic escatology.

    Lets just say this war changed the world and is the first of the great wars to come.

    Coming onto @KingKhanWC and your claim about Germany. Their tanks were better than the french tanks, their soldiers were better trained, they perfected the art of mechanised infantry warfare and introduced it to the world. By the end of the war german tanks were formidable war machines that were highly sophisticated and were outgunning and destroying allied tanks but were outnumbered by soviet and allied machines due to the destruction of their factories.

    Ultimately the German army should have won the eastern front and signed a peace with Stalin. Also if they had taken out the radar installations on the channel coast they would have signed a peace with the UK.

    But God swt works and plans too and if you look at the pivotal events they are riddled with human error, emotion and fate. The outcome of the war hinged on pivotal moments that changed the face of the world. Hitlers ignorance during the eastern front campaign, his personality and incompetence also played a part.
    As you say the Allied tanks outnumbered the Germans, over 3-1 from what I've read. The German troops including many of the high ranking officers were not on the same page as Hitler and often ignored his orders, some conspiring to assaniate him. I think the British and allied history has proplled the Nazi regime as much more powerful than they were. There was never any real danger of Britain being taken over by Germans, so all this talk of if we should be thankful not to be living under Nazi regime is glorified victory talk in order to make the victory sound as a greater achievment than it was.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    As you say the Allied tanks outnumbered the Germans, over 3-1 from what I've read. The German troops including many of the high ranking officers were not on the same page as Hitler and often ignored his orders, some conspiring to assaniate him. I think the British and allied history has proplled the Nazi regime as much more powerful than they were. There was never any real danger of Britain being taken over by Germans, so all this talk of if we should be thankful not to be living under Nazi regime is glorified victory talk in order to make the victory sound as a greater achievment than it was.
    Honestly I have to disagree with you there. The UK was very close to capitulating and were keen to sign an agreement with Hitler. If that had happened he would have won the western front because the US was not interested. The germans had better technology than the british and the allies at the start of the war. Their tanks were better and their soldiers were better. They destroyed the British army in europe and if it wasnt for dunkirk they would have finished them off..France didnt have an army by the end of the war and was reliant on a free french force made up of exiles and Muslims from the colonies.

    Hitler got too cocky, he should never have invaded russia, and he should have sat tight and starved out Britain. He should also have broken his agreement with the japanese and if he had done so Europe would have been different. Suffice it to say the Germans rule europe differently now..


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