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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    US was surely responsible for supporting many terrorists organization. There is absolutely no denying that fact. I was making a different point.

    Pakistan may have found itself in situation where it felt compelled to have a all foreign fighters coming and getting trained in Pakistan in Afghanistan initially. But there was absolutely no pressure to keep using the same foreign fighters and even local ones for the next 10 years. Russia had left Afghanistan and having large number of terrorists inside Pakistan was never going to help Pakistan.

    Even now, I have no doubt that US and may countries support non-state actors and many terrorist organizations around the world. But they didn't invite thousands of foreign fighters at home to give them a base for training and recruitment of locals. Any fool can see that it was going to blow big time. Pakistan was under no pressure to do something this stupid after Russia left, but they did it for decades.

    Only reason is that Army incentive is not the same as 200M+ general population. Army did what they thought was best for them. Unless army changes it's track, this problem won't go away. US or anyone shouldn't be telling anything to Pakistan. It's Pakistan best interest to shut down all terrorists and not do the stupidity of good and bad terrorists. How dumb some one can be to give shelter to Osama Bin Laden after 9/11? Not only that , let's even put a person who helped to capture Osama in jail. Action speaks louder than words.

    Providing home base to terrorists is not going to solve anything, but it's up to army to do full clean up rather than selective clean up. Everyone knows that army has the final say. I hope that IK can influence the future direction here, because Pakistan surely needs it. It has nothing to do with what other countries say, but it's about the best direction Pakistan can go.
    Then you have no idea about the Afghan civil war, the players involved and what was at stake.


    "Peace is only made with the powerful"

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Imran Khan is a good man, and may turn out to be the kind of leader Pakistan needs, or has always needed.

    One thing I hope he will do, is confront Muhammad bin Salman - implicated in the Jamal Khashoggi murder - about Saudi Arabia's merciless, cruel, heartless and evil crusade against impoverished Yemen, where millions are at risk of starvation, and where hundreds of thousands of children may already have starved to death.

    Unless Muslim governments stand up to and challenge the mega-hypocrites in oil-rich Arab states, that are busy slaughtering and/or oppressing their own compatriots/co-religionists, they will never have any credibility. The U.S, its allies, India and so on, are not the greatest enemies of Pakistan or Muslims, the aforementioned are.
    IK should do what's best for Pakistan. It won't serve Pakistan well if IK gets involved in Jamal Khashoggi issue.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Then you have no idea about the Afghan civil war, the players involved and what was at stake.
    So you think having foreign fighters making a base in Pakistan for training and recruitment helped Pakistan in long term? I think it was the most stupid decision anyone can make because final outcome was inevitable.

    I have actually spend considerable amount of time reading actual situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I can't claim that others are not aware of anything, but it will be best to give reasons rather than simply discarding anything going against popular narrative pushed by Army in Pakistan for decades.

    No stake can compensate for negative long term impact of having tens of thousands of outsider having recruitment and training camps inside a country. Eventually whatever gain a country could get in short term will amount to nothing. The strategy was doomed to fail in long term and it was never going to help improve life of an average Joe in Pakistan. Decision makers took selfish and short term decision.
    Last edited by Buffet; 9th December 2018 at 17:24.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    US was surely responsible for supporting many terrorists organization. There is absolutely no denying that fact. I was making a different point.

    Pakistan may have found itself in situation where it felt compelled to have a all foreign fighters coming and getting trained in Pakistan in Afghanistan initially. But there was absolutely no pressure to keep using the same foreign fighters and even local ones for the next 10 years. Russia had left Afghanistan and having large number of terrorists inside Pakistan was never going to help Pakistan.

    Even now, I have no doubt that US and may countries support non-state actors and many terrorist organizations around the world. But they didn't invite thousands of foreign fighters at home to give them a base for training and recruitment of locals. Any fool can see that it was going to blow big time. Pakistan was under no pressure to do something this stupid after Russia left, but they did it for decades.

    Only reason is that Army incentive is not the same as 200M+ general population. Army did what they thought was best for them. Unless army changes it's track, this problem won't go away. US or anyone shouldn't be telling anything to Pakistan. It's Pakistan best interest to shut down all terrorists and not do the stupidity of good and bad terrorists. How dumb some one can be to give shelter to Osama Bin Laden after 9/11? Not only that , let's even put a person who helped to capture Osama in jail. Action speaks louder than words.

    Providing home base to terrorists is not going to solve anything, but it's up to army to do full clean up rather than selective clean up. Everyone knows that army has the final say. I hope that IK can influence the future direction here, because Pakistan surely needs it. It has nothing to do with what other countries say, but it's about the best direction Pakistan can go.
    Pakistan did not host foreign militants after Russian withdrawal. No doubt , US's support in Afghanistan was Pakistan's mistake , but that support was solicited through a military dictator by US itself.
    Yes, some people went to fight Indian oppressors in Indian Occupied Kashmir , and they were probably helped but no way Pakistan was housing militants from all around the world as you claim.

    American themselves , at the highest offices have conceded that no part of Pakistani state was involved in housing Osama. If you want to believe conjectures you believe so, but avoid giving sermons here on your mere suppositions. Dr was involved in espionage and should face his sentence.

    Yes,Pakistan should dismantle any terrorists based here, which they do regularly.But when as a result of a porous Afghan border and millions of Afghan refugees some militants infiltrate then it is a shared responsibility of Pakistan and NATA/US forces to hinder their activities. Only a week ago two terrorist incidents happened in Pakistan because of American failure to control a vast area of Afghan territory. Situation is more complex than you make it.


    " Don't wait. The time will never be just right "

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by waqar goraya View Post
    Pakistan did not host foreign militants after Russian withdrawal. No doubt , US's support in Afghanistan was Pakistan's mistake , but that support was solicited through a military dictator by US itself.
    Yes, some people went to fight Indian oppressors in Indian Occupied Kashmir , and they were probably helped but no way Pakistan was housing militants from all around the world as you claim.

    American themselves , at the highest offices have conceded that no part of Pakistani state was involved in housing Osama. If you want to believe conjectures you believe so, but avoid giving sermons here on your mere suppositions. Dr was involved in espionage and should face his sentence.

    Yes,Pakistan should dismantle any terrorists based here, which they do regularly.But when as a result of a porous Afghan border and millions of Afghan refugees some militants infiltrate then it is a shared responsibility of Pakistan and NATA/US forces to hinder their activities. Only a week ago two terrorist incidents happened in Pakistan because of American failure to control a vast area of Afghan territory. Situation is more complex than you make it.
    Here you go with some people and probably helped notion.

    ---------------------------------

    Pakistan supported, trained terror groups: Musharraf

    Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi were our heroes at that time. Later on the religious militancy turned into terrorism. - Musharraf

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...oups-Musharraf

    -----------------------------------


    US Admiral: 'Haqqani is veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI'

    Militant group planned and conducted the recent assault on the US Embassy in Kabul with the help of the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us...pakistan-s-isi


    Pakistan defends move not to take military action against Haqqani

    https://www.ft.com/content/aa8df0ee-...2-d7d59aace167

    --------------------------------------

    If all this confirmed by ex-president of Pakistan doesn't convince you then nothing will. It's not some people and it's not probably. Pakistan has been hosting and training terrorist organizations officially.

    Russia left in 1989, but Pakistan kept training and housing them to fight neighbors. Nothing good was ever going to come out of such stupid move.

    Guy who helped to get rid of most wanted was doing espionage. Yah, right. Everyone knows what's going on here. Let's simply agree to disagree.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Here you go with some people and probably helped notion.

    ---------------------------------

    Pakistan supported, trained terror groups: Musharraf

    Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi were our heroes at that time. Later on the religious militancy turned into terrorism. - Musharraf

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...oups-Musharraf

    -----------------------------------


    US Admiral: 'Haqqani is veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI'

    Militant group planned and conducted the recent assault on the US Embassy in Kabul with the help of the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us...pakistan-s-isi


    Pakistan defends move not to take military action against Haqqani

    https://www.ft.com/content/aa8df0ee-...2-d7d59aace167

    --------------------------------------

    If all this confirmed by ex-president of Pakistan doesn't convince you then nothing will. It's not some people and it's not probably. Pakistan has been hosting and training terrorist organizations officially.

    Russia left in 1989, but Pakistan kept training and housing them to fight neighbors. Nothing good was ever going to come out of such stupid move.

    Guy who helped to get rid of most wanted was doing espionage. Yah, right. Everyone knows what's going on here. Let's simply agree to disagree.
    As far as active interference in Kashmir is concerned I have already stated that Pakistan's support was limited to Kashmir related militants. Where as you were saying Pakistan was supporting and housing militants from all over the world even after Afghan conflict which is absolutely non sense. No doubt that approach was wrong and shelved during Musharraf's regime.
    But in this perspective you should also read Chuck Hagel's statement of Indian interference in Pakistan. Then very recently Indian serving military officer Kulbhushan ,working for RAW, was arrested financing and supporting terrorism in Pakistan. Thus, Pakistan's past support of militants focused on Indian Kashmir had that background. Pakistan did not support proxies or militants in other regions at all, as Americans have done through out its history, including supporting Haqqanis and Talibans once.

    Regarding Haqqani network, the worst criticism of Pakistan on Haqqanis has been that Pakistan has not done enough against them. Pakistan always believed they were not operating in Pakistan and certainly were not fighting Pakistan. When there is such a large uncontrolled area in Afghanistan, they don't need to hide in Pakistan. And even if some of them infiltrate in the guise of refugees, US has had a vast private contract assassins and CIA agents in Pakistan to take out its enemies. If Pakistan army was in fact supporting Haqqanis to kill Americans then US would not be working with Pakistan and seeking its full co operation. Othe other hand, US itself has been unable to uproot ISIS and TTP ( who only operate in Pakistan ) from Afghanistan.
    As i said things are more complicated than you make it to be.

    Dr Shakeel Afridi indeed worked for a foreign agency, inside his own country, which is a crime every where in the world. Also, the role of a vaccinator that he assumed has really made conservative people averse to vaccinating their childs , fearing that these people might be working as foreign agents.


    " Don't wait. The time will never be just right "


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