Are MS Dhoni and AB de Villiers ATGs?


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  1. #1
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    Are MS Dhoni and AB de Villiers ATGs?

    Its been a while I am wondering if MS Dhoni or AB de Villiers qualifies as ATG or not.

    Dhoni is a wicket keeper and an ATG undeniably in ODIs even though he has been poor on late form while in tests, he averages a very good 38 as a wkt-keeper but still not seen as a gold standard around the world in test class. Will he go down as an ATG?

    Similarly, ABD is unquestionably an ATG in ODIs and he also average 50 in tests but he retired before WC 19 and also was absent from some big tours.

    Are they all-time greats talking on overall basis? Yes or No.

    Discuss!

  2. #2
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    ABD is overall ATG of a lower scale.Dhoni is not overall ATG,but definite ODI ATG.

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    Both are ODI ATG , Devilliars is a test great not ATG.


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

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    ABD is an ODI ATG and a Test great.

    Dhoni is an ODI ATG as well and a very very good Test player.

    In modern era, given the influence of limited overs, these two can be termed as ATGs or excluded as well.

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    Yes they are both ATGs.

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    AB is an ODI ATG (top grade) and test ATG (lower grade). If he weren't such a chicken he would be talked along with the likes of Viv, Sachin, Lara, Ponting etc.

    Dhoni is an ODI ATG (top grade since he is a keeper) and strictly mediocre in the other 2 formats.

  7. #7
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    Overall, AB is an ATG, Dhoni is not an ATG.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  8. #8
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    AB is an ATG because he was great batsman in both forms of the Game, Dhoni was a very ordinary WK bat especially outside Asia.

  9. #9
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    ABD is an ATG in ODI unquestionably. His decision to retire means he won’t have the chance to be a top tier ATG. But his performances in WCs are not that bad. Nothing amazing but decent. Dhoni is an ATG in ODIs also.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
    AB is an ATG because he was great batsman in both forms of the Game, Dhoni was a very ordinary WK bat especially outside Asia.
    Let's first look at his familiar condition at home. His batting average as WK bat is 45. No one will call it ordinary for a WK bat.

    Now look at his performance as WK bat outside Asia. His average is 29. Clearly, it's not outstanding but hardly very ordinary for a WK bat.

    I personally don't think he was good enough in test to make the cut and that's why I don't rate him as an overall ATG, he was hardly very ordinary.

    I rate him just below the ATG cut off and he misses mainly due to not having enough in test format despite being among the top 5-7 players in ODI format.


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    So on what basis is Dhoni considered an ATG in ODI's?

    Isn't this the same Dhoni that has been an absolute embarrassment to his country in the very same format for a couple year now?

    If we go by past glory than Afridi would be an ATG in T20i surely, but that isn't the case..
    Last edited by LegendAli; 26th December 2018 at 06:12.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendAli View Post
    So on what basis is Dhoni considered an ATG in ODI's?

    Isn't this the same Dhoni that has been an absolute embarrassment to his country in the very same format for a couple year now?

    If we go by past glory than Afridi would be an ATG in T20i surely, but that isn't the case..
    Lots of players have been poor in their last leg ( SRT, Miandad etc) . Career is not defined by just the last few years.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Lots of players have been poor in their last leg ( SRT, Miandad etc) . Career is not defined by just the last few years.
    Ok, then why is Afridi not a ATG contender then? 2008-2011 he was a beast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendAli View Post
    Ok, then why is Afridi not a ATG contender then? 2008-2011 he was a beast.
    because Afridi was mediocre for the other 15 years

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendAli View Post
    Ok, then why is Afridi not a ATG contender then? 2008-2011 he was a beast.
    There is difference between being poor for entire career with 2-3 good years vs being good in entire career with 2-3 poor years.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    AB yes, no

  17. #17
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    Both dented their legacy in one way or other.

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    ODIs both easy ATG.Tests only ABD,but of lower order.

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    Dhoni has damaged his legacy big time. Should have retired with grace after the WC 2015 or CT 2017.

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    Both went about cricket in their own unique way. Both left a lasting impression on the game. I'd consider both ATGs. However, Dhoni wasn't THAT great in tests. Also, AB is the only cricketer, I know of, who is absolutely loved outside his own country. India might as well give him honorary citizenship.

  21. #21
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    Dhoni between 2007-2013 achieved the highest of peaks in Indian limited overs by winning us World t20, World Cup and the CT.

    Regardless of his terrible form in last 4 years,
    i think he will go down as the greatest limited over player in our history. Over Sachin, because he was an exceptional leader.

    In tests he was good but not great. A decent captain till he had a good team.

    ABDV was a monster in ODIs and a great test batsman. Arguably top 3 in ODIs ever. Too bad he ended without a WC since the rest of his team was full of bottlers like Amla.

    Overall as a cricketer I think it's ABDV for me, but I feel Dhoni meant a lot more for his countrymen than AbDV did if you get what I mean...

  22. #22
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    both of them are ATGs.... AB's case is beyond doubt. People doubting Dhoni should understand that Dhoni is a WK . So he should be analysed based on being '2 dimensional'. An indisputable ODI great, a master chaser in ODI, a great ODI captain, a captain who played that brilliant 91* in that high pressure chase in that 2011 world cup final , a very good track record in tests for a WK ...... he is definitely an ATG.

  23. #23
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    Both are ODIs ATGs without a doubt.

  24. #24
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    in Short yes, But in dhoni case only ODI ATG.

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    Mahendra Singh Dhoni is, without a shadow of doubt an ATG of cricket.

    Cricketers aren't made ATGs because of just their batting or bowling. It's what someone has achieved overall over a career that makes someone an ATG. That would certainly include wicketkeeping and leadership.

    Due to recency effect, I'm sure a lot of people on and off this forum would question Dhoni's ATG tag. So let's just take a look at the career highlights of the man.

    1. 10,000+ ODI runs & 17,000+ international runs

    2. 900 odd dismissals - the 3rd highest of anybody who has ever played the game

    3. T20 WC winning captain in 2007

    4. 50 overs WC winning captain in 2011

    5. CT winning captain in 2013 - the only captain ever to have won all 3 ICC trophies

    6. ICC test mace winning captain in 2009 & 2010 - the first time India won the Mace

    7. Winning a test series in NZ in 2009 - the first time in 27 years

    9. Winning the VB series in Australia in 2008 - the first time ever for India (and till date the only time India has won the VB tri-series)

    10. First indian captain to draw a series in SA in 2010/11

    11. Winning a test series in SL in 2009 - first time in 23 years for India



    Now that that's out of the way, I would welcome everyone in this forum to name a single non-ATG cricketer who has achieved what his man has achieved. Awaiting your responses

    PS: and while we're at it, ABD is also an ATG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    Mahendra Singh Dhoni is, without a shadow of doubt an ATG of cricket.

    Cricketers aren't made ATGs because of just their batting or bowling. It's what someone has achieved overall over a career that makes someone an ATG. That would certainly include wicketkeeping and leadership.

    Due to recency effect, I'm sure a lot of people on and off this forum would question Dhoni's ATG tag. So let's just take a look at the career highlights of the man.

    1. 10,000+ ODI runs & 17,000+ international runs

    2. 900 odd dismissals - the 3rd highest of anybody who has ever played the game

    3. T20 WC winning captain in 2007

    4. 50 overs WC winning captain in 2011

    5. CT winning captain in 2013 - the only captain ever to have won all 3 ICC trophies

    6. ICC test mace winning captain in 2009 & 2010 - the first time India won the Mace

    7. Winning a test series in NZ in 2009 - the first time in 27 years

    9. Winning the VB series in Australia in 2008 - the first time ever for India (and till date the only time India has won the VB tri-series)

    10. First indian captain to draw a series in SA in 2010/11

    11. Winning a test series in SL in 2009 - first time in 23 years for India



    Now that that's out of the way, I would welcome everyone in this forum to name a single non-ATG cricketer who has achieved what his man has achieved. Awaiting your responses

    PS: and while we're at it, ABD is also an ATG.
    when did india won the test series in srilanka under dhonis captaincy?
    that was in 2010 it was drawn by 1-1,kohli was the one who won in 2015.
    dhoni is great in odi but he is a failure in test.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    when did india won the test series in srilanka under dhonis captaincy?
    that was in 2010 it was drawn by 1-1,kohli was the one who won in 2015.
    dhoni is great in odi but he is a failure in test.
    You're correct. It was a draw. Not a series win.

    If a failure in test cricket leads the team to the test Mace two years in a row, then I will aspire to be a failure for the rest of my life.

    Thanks for playing.

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    AB De Villiers is an ATG.

    MS Dhoni is an LOI ATG. I'd say he's one of the if not the best finisher the game has seen and one of the best Wicket-Keeper batsmen and captains of all time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    Mahendra Singh Dhoni is, without a shadow of doubt an ATG of cricket.

    Cricketers aren't made ATGs because of just their batting or bowling. It's what someone has achieved overall over a career that makes someone an ATG. That would certainly include wicketkeeping and leadership.

    Due to recency effect, I'm sure a lot of people on and off this forum would question Dhoni's ATG tag. So let's just take a look at the career highlights of the man.

    1. 10,000+ ODI runs & 17,000+ international runs

    2. 900 odd dismissals - the 3rd highest of anybody who has ever played the game

    3. T20 WC winning captain in 2007

    4. 50 overs WC winning captain in 2011

    5. CT winning captain in 2013 - the only captain ever to have won all 3 ICC trophies

    6. ICC test mace winning captain in 2009 & 2010 - the first time India won the Mace

    7. Winning a test series in NZ in 2009 - the first time in 27 years

    9. Winning the VB series in Australia in 2008 - the first time ever for India (and till date the only time India has won the VB tri-series)

    10. First indian captain to draw a series in SA in 2010/11

    11. Winning a test series in SL in 2009 - first time in 23 years for India



    Now that that's out of the way, I would welcome everyone in this forum to name a single non-ATG cricketer who has achieved what his man has achieved. Awaiting your responses

    PS: and while we're at it, ABD is also an ATG.
    MS Dhoni is the best captain if not ever than at the very least the best captain India ever had. It is absurd to me how he was in the team and not captain for the past 2 years. If Dhoni is in the team he must be captain. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    You're correct. It was a draw. Not a series win.

    If a failure in test cricket leads the team to the test Mace two years in a row, then I will aspire to be a failure for the rest of my life.

    Thanks for playing.
    that too he had players like sehwag,gambhir,vvs,sachin,dravid,zaheer once they all started failing he was mediocre,retiring between the series and making the team rank 7,kohli handled the team and making the no 1 test team,even though kohli make some atrocious selection but still he is much better test captain than dhoni.
    Last edited by andy0204; 12th July 2019 at 19:23.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    that too he had players like sehwag,gambhir,vvs,sachin,dravid,zaheer once they all started failing he was mediocre,retiring between the series and making the team rank 7,kohli handled the team and making the no 1 test team,even though kohli make some atrocious selection but still he is much better test captain than dhoni.
    If you're going to blame the captain for losses then be prepared to give him credit when he takes the team to #1 ranking. Don't be hypocritical in your judgement.

    And btw India lost 4-0 in Australia and England when Sachin, Dravid and Sehwag were still playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QalandarFan View Post
    MS Dhoni is the best captain if not ever than at the very least the best captain India ever had. It is absurd to me how he was in the team and not captain for the past 2 years. If Dhoni is in the team he must be captain. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
    I would assume the reason would have been to give Virat time to settle into the role for the future while at the same time for Dhoni to be around for sometime to support him in his initial years. Captaining a sub-continental cricket team is the hardest job in cricket. I'm sure we all can agree on that. We've seen how the fans and media in this part of the world are like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    I would assume the reason would have been to give Virat time to settle into the role for the future while at the same time for Dhoni to be around for sometime to support him in his initial years. Captaining a sub-continental cricket team is the hardest job in cricket. I'm sure we all can agree on that. We've seen how the fans and media in this part of the world are like.
    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    If you're going to blame the captain for losses then be prepared to give him credit when he takes the team to #1 ranking. Don't be hypocritical in your judgement.

    And btw India lost 4-0 in Australia and England when Sachin, Dravid and Sehwag were still playing.
    Read my statement again i said when those players started failing he became mediocre and those players include sachin,sehwag
    Iam not hypocritical i stated the fact he is failure in test cricket that doesnt mean that he is failed cricketer.
    I respect him as a great odi player.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    Read my statement again i said when those players started failing he became mediocre and those players include sachin,sehwag
    Iam not hypocritical i stated the fact he is failure in test cricket that doesnt mean that he is failed cricketer.
    I respect him as a great odi player.
    Define this "failure" in test cricket please.

    Dhoni is still among the top 5 or 6 in terms of test average and aggregate runs for any wicketkeeper who has played a significant number of tests.

    So would love to know the reasons why he is classified as test failure in your books.

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    if Dhoni is not an ATG , then how many wicket keepers are eligible for that 'TAG' ? A certain Adam Gilchrist comes to mind . Then Andy flower, but he lacks longevity. Then there are Healy,Boucher,Dujon & Alec stewart.... but they pales a lot in comparison to Dhoni or Gilchrist.

    So Dhoni & Gilchrist are by far 2wicket keepers who have been not only great wicket keepers, but 'good to great' batsmen in both formats of the game and that too with adequate longevity. Dhoni being a great ODI captain adds up for him further. So these 2 are certainly ATGs from 'wicket keeper' players.

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    I consider both of them as ATG. They are legends.


    Bangladeshi Guy

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    Dhoni is an ATG as he has won India the World Cup, ABD will be forgotten just like Kallis.

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    ABD is an unquestionable ATG overall, and a solod GOAT contender in ODIs. Dhoni is an ODI ATG, but not overall.

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    Dhoni definitely is.

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    These threads come up when players dent their legacy by playing past their expiry date. As much as I dislike the current dhoni he is an ATG for what he achieved in the past.
    Same case with ABD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    I would assume the reason would have been to give Virat time to settle into the role for the future while at the same time for Dhoni to be around for sometime to support him in his initial years. Captaining a sub-continental cricket team is the hardest job in cricket. I'm sure we all can agree on that. We've seen how the fans and media in this part of the world are like.
    I understand but in my opinion when you have the best captain in the world in your team you use him as long as he's in the team. Virat could of been Vice Captain while captaining Tests and T20I's. It would of also allowed him time to settle into ODI Captaincy with 4 years to the next big event the World Cup. Whereas here he was thrown straight in to captain during the CT and 2019 CWC. I get it experience, but man you have Dhoni in the side to me it just doesn't seem right for him not to be captaining.


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    Quote Originally Posted by satheesh View Post
    if Dhoni is not an ATG , then how many wicket keepers are eligible for that 'TAG' ? A certain Adam Gilchrist comes to mind . Then Andy flower, but he lacks longevity. Then there are Healy,Boucher,Dujon & Alec stewart.... but they pales a lot in comparison to Dhoni or Gilchrist.

    So Dhoni & Gilchrist are by far 2wicket keepers who have been not only great wicket keepers, but 'good to great' batsmen in both formats of the game and that too with adequate longevity. Dhoni being a great ODI captain adds up for him further. So these 2 are certainly ATGs from 'wicket keeper' players.
    Can't really blame Andy Flower if he played for a better team or even just a team that didn't have the political issues such as Zimbabwe did he would of been remembered along with the likes of Gilchrist and Dhoni in my view. Unfortunate his talent was wasted in such a horrible manner.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    Define this "failure" in test cricket please.

    Dhoni is still among the top 5 or 6 in terms of test average and aggregate runs for any wicketkeeper who has played a significant number of tests.

    So would love to know the reasons why he is classified as test failure in your books.
    yes sure a batsman who doesnt have any overseas test centuries is called a failure,even tailenders have a century in overseas kumble,agarkar.
    he doesnt have technique and temperament in test match like he has in odi matches,how many times he saved his team from collapse like he used to do in odis.
    pakistan wicketkeeper moin khan has an overseas century in england as a wicketkeeper batsman ,even mushfiqur rahim from bangladesh have overseas century in newzealand,westindies as a wicketkeeper batsman,even the hacks like maxwell,afridi have an overseas century.
    even rishabh pant have an overseas century in england,australia as a wicketkeeper.
    As a captain i already mentioned before,retiring in the middle of the series that means failure.
    he may be in india test xi because no wicketkeeper hasnt done that much than dhoni.

    a great odi player

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    Quote Originally Posted by QalandarFan View Post
    I understand but in my opinion when you have the best captain in the world in your team you use him as long as he's in the team. Virat could of been Vice Captain while captaining Tests and T20I's. It would of also allowed him time to settle into ODI Captaincy with 4 years to the next big event the World Cup. Whereas here he was thrown straight in to captain during the CT and 2019 CWC. I get it experience, but man you have Dhoni in the side to me it just doesn't seem right for him not to be captaining.
    Personally, I agree with you 100%. Even to me it made no sense why they would have Dhoni in the side and not have him as the captain.

    I was just trying to explain what I think the team management was trying to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    yes sure a batsman who doesnt have any overseas test centuries is called a failure,even tailenders have a century in overseas kumble,agarkar.
    he doesnt have technique and temperament in test match like he has in odi matches,how many times he saved his team from collapse like he used to do in odis.
    pakistan wicketkeeper moin khan has an overseas century in england as a wicketkeeper batsman ,even mushfiqur rahim from bangladesh have overseas century in newzealand,westindies as a wicketkeeper batsman,even the hacks like maxwell,afridi have an overseas century.
    even rishabh pant have an overseas century in england,australia as a wicketkeeper.
    As a captain i already mentioned before,retiring in the middle of the series that means failure.
    he may be in india test xi because no wicketkeeper hasnt done that much than dhoni.

    a great odi player
    So basically you're saying that because he doesn't have overseas centuries that's why he is an overall test failure, right?

    Good to know.


    Just for your information, however, he scored a 148 in Pakistan.

    He also has 3 scores of 90s overseas (in England and SA) and a 3-4 80s overseas as well.

    So I suppose as per your understanding the difference between a test success and a test failure is those 8 runs between the 92 that Dhoni scored in England and the 100 runs mark that he failed to reach.

    Hats off to your cricketing sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    So basically you're saying that because he doesn't have overseas centuries that's why he is an overall test failure, right?

    Good to know.


    Just for your information, however, he scored a 148 in Pakistan.

    He also has 3 scores of 90s overseas (in England and SA) and a 3-4 80s overseas as well.

    So I suppose as per your understanding the difference between a test success and a test failure is those 8 runs between the 92 that Dhoni scored in England and the 100 runs mark that he failed to reach.

    Hats off to your cricketing sense.
    that 92 he scored is good but the match was saved by the rain.
    and 148 is in subcontinent.
    yes thank you for realizing that i have good cricket sense
    i already said that he is failure in test cricket in my opinion whether you like it or not.
    Last edited by andy0204; 13th July 2019 at 13:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    that 92 he scored is good but the match was saved by the rain.
    and 148 is in subcontinent.
    yes thank you for realizing that i have good cricket sense
    i already said that he is failure in test cricket in my opinion whether you like it or not.
    It is your opinion, that's correct. Doesn't change the fact that Dhoni is still among the top 5 most successful test keepers in the history of the game.

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    Yep they are.

    AB was a monster. Not many men can bat like him.

    MSD is an ODI ATG. Excellent WK and an incredible batsman. He is the only WK that can be compared to the GOAT Gilly.

    (Only in ODIs tho, in tests MSD was a nobody)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    It is your opinion, that's correct. Doesn't change the fact that Dhoni is still among the top 5 most successful test keepers in the history of the game.
    allan knot,adam gilchrist,jeff dujon,andy flower,ian healy these are the 5 who are in the top

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    allan knot,adam gilchrist,jeff dujon,andy flower,ian healy these are the 5 who are in the top
    Ah see you shouldn't have mentioned Knot because that's exposed your hypocrisy.

    Allan Knot doesn't have any centuries in overseas conditions either (non-SENA).

    But in your books he can still qualify as a test success but Dhoni cannot. How come? Different rules for different folks it seems. Could it be that you're just setting criteria that suits your conclusion? Looks that way...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak619 View Post
    Ah see you shouldn't have mentioned Knot because that's exposed your hypocrisy.

    Allan Knot doesn't have any centuries in overseas conditions either (non-SENA).

    But in your books he can still qualify as a test success but Dhoni cannot. How come? Different rules for different folks it seems. Could it be that you're just setting criteria that suits your conclusion? Looks that way...
    because allan knot was the best wicketkepeer in terms of catching no one can match allan knot due to his wicketkeeping skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy0204 View Post
    because allan knot was the best wicketkepeer in terms of catching no one can match allan knot due to his wicketkeeping skills.
    Like I said - different rules for different folks.

    Thanks for playing.

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    Dhoni lost all the shine after this pathetic world cup

    Had he retired in 2015 he would be considered an ATG

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    Dhoni is overall ATG with all the achievements , ABDV is ATG in only LOIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Yep they are.

    AB was a monster. Not many men can bat like him.

    MSD is an ODI ATG. Excellent WK and an incredible batsman. He is the only WK that can be compared to the GOAT Gilly.

    (Only in ODIs tho, in tests MSD was a nobody)
    Calling him "a nobody" in Tests is a stretch. Sure he wasn't as big as he is in ODIs, but he is still the best Asian WK batsman in Test cricket history, considering that Sangakkara didn't keep wickets in Tests for more than half of his career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QalandarFan View Post
    Can't really blame Andy Flower if he played for a better team or even just a team that didn't have the political issues such as Zimbabwe did he would of been remembered along with the likes of Gilchrist and Dhoni in my view. Unfortunate his talent was wasted in such a horrible manner.
    no ....firstly I missed a point there. Flower too deserves to be included
    in that list . His track record(test + ODI) is superior to Dhoni sans a bit of longevity. and he belonged to a weaker team ZIM adds tp his credentials . So , definitely he too is an ATG

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