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  1. #1
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    Jason Holder has surpassed Stokes and Shakib as the greatest A/R in the world followed by Moeen Ali

    He has never had the benefit of playing for the strongest Test team but is just so damn consistent and has been such an inspirational leader for the West Indies, the fire of old remains in his veins and the whole Caribbean is proud of this majestic man. He performs with his back against the wall against the best home and away, no one can doubt his undisputed claim as the best all rounder in the world today.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  2. #2
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    It has been a pleasure following his career, he has been criticised from day one and the cynicism of fans has been shocking. He may not be the atypical West Indian but he doesn't have to be the next Gary Sobers, he is the first Jason Holder and a gift for the West Indies during some extremely testing times. Hope he continues to lead and play well, his patriotism and presence will inspire not only the current crop of West Indian talent but also the younger generation.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  3. #3
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    That's a news to me. I thought Hardik Pandya and Fahim Ashraf were no 1 and no 2.

  4. #4
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    He has been the best all-rounder for the past two years.

    Just being recognized now because he performed against overrated England.

    Better late than never I guess.

  5. #5
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    Congrats with the double ton!


    Ki Mohammad (saw) sey wafa tu ney tou hum terey hain
    Yeh jahaan cheez kya hai Loh-o-Qalam tere hain

  6. #6
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    What a player! Always gives his full whether he's batting or bowling

  7. #7
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    In the last two years:

    16 Tests

    Batting
    960 runs
    average 40
    2 hundreds

    Bowling
    57 wickets
    average 21
    four 5-fers


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    In the last two years:

    16 Tests

    Batting
    960 runs
    average 40
    2 hundreds

    Bowling
    57 wickets
    average 21
    four 5-fers
    Any batsman or bowler would be proud of those respective stats

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shandarchowka View Post
    Any batsman or bowler would be proud of those respective stats
    Last seven Tests he's averaging 54 with the bat and 12 with the ball


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  10. #10
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    Still can not believe that he bats at 8. He would score a lot of runs batting at 6 with proper bats around him.

    But yea it might be a it too much for him.


    "You aren't a failure if you fail, you are a failure if you don't get up to try again" - Imran Khan.

  11. #11
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    Jacques Kallis was probably the last one this phenomenal with both bat and ball in tests during his peak.


    "You aren't a failure if you fail, you are a failure if you don't get up to try again" - Imran Khan.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    In the last two years:

    16 Tests

    Batting
    960 runs
    average 40
    2 hundreds

    Bowling
    57 wickets
    average 21
    four 5-fers
    Insane numbers, he doesn't get credit because the WI's are not ranked too highly but if we look closer they have been performing a lot better then their recent record suggests and have an amazing pool of talent now to build on for the future, they just need to sort out their structure at the WICB to get rid of the corruption and give more people reasons to play for the united Islands. Am very emotional today, what a performance like the days of old, England are being obliterated and it makes me smile @Robert @Junaids


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Last seven Tests he's averaging 54 with the bat and 12 with the ball
    Those are just ATG worthy stats but I think he did pad some of those against Bangladesh which with all due respect have to be discarded.

  14. #14
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    Him and Stokes are the best all rounders in the world. I would go with Stokes just but Holder is a brilliant cricketer.

  15. #15
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    Wow.

    Shows determination and hard work pay off.

  16. #16
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    Holder is the real deal. He can take wickets in tough conditions also as displayed by his five for in India.

  17. #17
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    My favourite cricketer in international cricket behind Kohli amongst the non-Pakistani cricketers.

  18. #18
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    Moeen ali is nowhere near Stokes. Stokes is a better batsman and a better bowler.

  19. #19
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    If I was coach of WI , I would ask him to concentrate more on batting , and ask him to seal number 6 position. I would use him as a Batting all rounder.

    He can bat at number 6 , and would be bowling around 5 overs every game. I mean in OD.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    If I was coach of WI , I would ask him to concentrate more on batting , and ask him to seal number 6 position. I would use him as a Batting all rounder.

    He can bat at number 6 , and would be bowling around 5 overs every game. I mean in OD.
    Holder is a very decent reliable bowler as well.

  21. #21
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    Fantastic player, easily the best all rounder around. Being a tall fella, the way he can bat both in a defensive and offence manner is oustanding. Also a great leader for the Windies.

    Moeen is second and Stokes third. Pandya and others are nowhere near the same level and probably never will be.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  22. #22
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    Holder is undoubtedly the best right now, not sure about Moeen though, Shakib is much better, I would even take Jaddu over Moeen.

  23. #23
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    He is certainly right up there. Brilliant cricketer.

  24. #24
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    Thereís something genuinely likable about him as a person and he has outstanding performances with both bat and ball to boot.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaankeJi View Post
    That's a news to me. I thought Hardik Pandya and Fahim Ashraf were no 1 and no 2.
    Are you joking?
    These bits and pieces players being called an allrounder is a joke. Even Rashid Khan is being considered as an allrounder these days LMAOOO ...

    Holder has been going up the lader for quite some time now with both ball/bat. There are only 3-4 geniun allrounder that's going around these days who can win the game with both bat/ball and are expected to perform with both bat and ball.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shandarchowka View Post
    Those are just ATG worthy stats but I think he did pad some of those against Bangladesh which with all due respect have to be discarded.
    Bangladesh is a really strong team at home, you're being really harsh. Mehedy and Taijul and Mominul are top tier home bullies.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Bangladesh is a really strong team at home, you're being really harsh. Mehedy and Taijul and Mominul are top tier home bullies.
    At home they are a good team now, non-asian teams wont find it easy to win Tests like the past


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    In the last two years:

    16 Tests

    Batting
    960 runs
    average 40
    2 hundreds

    Bowling
    57 wickets
    average 21
    four 5-fers
    Those stats are GOAT worthy

  29. #29
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    Have always liked Holder as a player and captain. Very level headed guy, thrown in as captain of a team in turmoil at such a young age.

    He always had potential with the ball and he's fulfilling it. But it's with the bat that he's improved leaps and bounds.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    At home they are a good team now, non-asian teams wont find it easy to win Tests like the past
    Only New Zealand would do well in Bangla because of their strong batting. Australia and South Africa would get smashed. Not sure about England, they blow hot and cold all the time.

  31. #31
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    Well done Holder. You are a true definition of an allrounder. Much better than fake and overhyped allrounders we are getting these days.

  32. #32
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    He is the number 1 in Tests . Best , not greatest

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    In the last two years:

    16 Tests

    Batting
    960 runs
    average 40
    2 hundreds

    Bowling
    57 wickets
    average 21
    four 5-fers
    An average of 29 with the bat and 52 with the ball against India. He needs to perform against the #1 Test team.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    An average of 29 with the bat and 52 with the ball against India. He needs to perform against the #1 Test team.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling
    His record against India is damaged by the 2016 series, a time during which he hadn't found his feet as player or captain.

    He took a fifer against India last year in the only test he played which is pretty damn impressive for any fast-bowler. So saying he hasn't performed against the No.1 side is infact incorrect

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedwoodOriginal View Post
    His record against India is damaged by the 2016 series, a time during which he hadn't found his feet as player or captain.

    He took a fifer against India last year in the only test he played which is pretty damn impressive for any fast-bowler. So saying he hasn't performed against the No.1 side is infact incorrect
    He made his Test debut in 2014, so 2016 isn't too early. However, I agree his performance in the last Test he played against India was pretty good. He gets another chance against India soon, we will see. His young team has certainly given the #2 ranked English a hiding.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    An average of 29 with the bat and 52 with the ball against India. He needs to perform against the #1 Test team.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling
    comparing past holder with the current one like comparing rohit of past with present one

    a 5fer against india in india should be enough to prove he can perform against india

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    He made his Test debut in 2014, so 2016 isn't too early. However, I agree his performance in the last Test he played against India was pretty good. He gets another chance against India soon, we will see. His young team has certainly given the #2 ranked English a hiding.
    He was by and large mediocre in 2016.

    Got better last year or so.

    Players have pivotal moments when they transform.

    5fer against India in India is no easy task though time will tell whether this transformation by Holder is temporary or permanent.

    His challenge lies when teams plan to counter him.

  38. #38
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    Moeen is a proven jobber, Holder is the toughest cricketer playing right now. Kid got made captain around 22 or something, we haven’t seen such a rise of a captain cricketer since Graeme Smith. He was a genuine low order bat when he started and then worked on his batting. Ever since he tied that ODI vs us with his sixes off Wab Raz in the 2nd or 3rd ODI in 2013, I have been a fan and have been following his career. A true champion, and glad to see the right talent is coming under his reign not to mention unifying all the players from different countries and allegiances.
    Last edited by shaaik; 8th February 2019 at 12:18.

  39. #39
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    Holder is superior to Stokes and currently the best all-rounder in the world.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Holder is superior to Stokes and currently the best all-rounder in the world.
    Easily.

    Moeen blows too hot or cold.


  41. #41
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    After Graeme Smith, this is the 1st time a young captain has turned the tide in his team's favour.

  42. #42
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    Yes he is.
    Moeen is not even better than jaddu let alone shakib.

  43. #43
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    Moeen is very overrated on this forum.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    Moeen is very overrated on this forum.
    Agreed. His away record is pathetic for a front line spinner. We know why he is rated highly by some let’s be honest.

  45. #45
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    Well surpassing Sakib Al Hasan is not much of a task lol... Shows there is no such thing as a true allrounder these days...


    "You want Philly, Philly ? " Nicholas Edward Foles

  46. #46
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    Holder on current form is definitely better than Stokes. Both are of the same age and entering the peak of their careers, so it will be interesting to see how they compare 5-6 years down the line.

    Moeen is a minnow player who is not good enough to be compared to these two. A decent player at best, but a far cry from being counted among the leading all-rounders in the world. Even among spin bowling all-rounders he is far from the best.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suleiman View Post
    Moeen is a proven jobber, Holder is the toughest cricketer playing right now. Kid got made captain around 22 or something, we havenít seen such a rise of a captain cricketer since Graeme Smith. He was a genuine low order bat when he started and then worked on his batting. Ever since he tied that ODI vs us with his sixes off Wab Raz in the 2nd or 3rd ODI in 2013, I have been a fan and have been following his career. A true champion, and glad to see the right talent is coming under his reign not to mention unifying all the players from different countries and allegiances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Holder on current form is definitely better than Stokes. Both are of the same age and entering the peak of their careers, so it will be interesting to see how they compare 5-6 years down the line.

    Moeen is a minnow player who is not good enough to be compared to these two. A decent player at best, but a far cry from being counted among the leading all-rounders in the world. Even among spin bowling all-rounders he is far from the best.
    Moeen is the biggest match winner for England, people who criticise him are generally insecure, haters or ignorant


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Moeen is the biggest match winner for England, people who criticise him are generally insecure, haters or ignorant
    You mistyped Anderson

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Moeen is the biggest match winner for England, people who criticise him are generally insecure, haters or ignorant
    Most people who lionize him are either Brummies or British Pakistanis. If he wasnít a poster boy for the latter, he would not be hyped so much.

    He is just an okay player who is in the limelight for his persona and success story as a minority rather than his cricket.

  50. #50
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    no doubt he is no1 just now but Shakib has been the best spin bowling allrounder for a long time & still is


    Waiting for the day when there will be no p....i player in a green shirt

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Moeen is the biggest match winner for England, people who criticise him are generally insecure, haters or ignorant
    So people who have a different opinion to you are insecure, haters ,or ignorant? That isn't fair.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Most people who lionize him are either Brummies or British Pakistanis. If he wasn’t a poster boy for the latter, he would not be hyped so much.

    He is just an okay player who is in the limelight for his persona and success story as a minority rather than his cricket.
    Most of the guys who hate him are racist against beards but if my peoples were the only who lionise him then he wouldn't be playing Test cricket but no one in England has truly been able to replace him even when he is never given a consistent role so what he has accomplished is worthy of a hall of fame induction in England. I doubt you've ever showed any guts or heart to play cricket even at the club level. You don't know what it takes or have the cricketing IQ to grasp the legend of Moeen Ali who is in the top 7 or 8 all time list for most man of the match awards in England's long history, you only berate his legend because to keep childish feuds going with various posters.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    So people who have a different opinion to you are insecure, haters ,or ignorant? That isn't fair.
    Not you specifically but definitely others when it comes to this discussion. But I find it hilarious that when he does well then everyone becomes fair-weather fans, it was only yesterday that despite being ridiculed and dropped from the team Mo returned to save the series against the no.1 team in the world along with Woakes who was also ridiculed. For a guy that doesn't have a consistent role he has done remarkably well and sure he could do better away but he will with more experience, it's ignorant to expect too much from players on debut away tours; we've seen specialists struggle a lot worse.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  54. #54
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    There are not too many genuine A/R's in the world today but Holder by far deserves the no.1 spot, it is not out of this world to have Mo in the no.2 spot at all but beyond that he still finds himself amongst the best A/R's on the planet in every ranking metric which proves his world class pedigree, among all he is by far the biggest match winner outside Holder but with some competition from Ashwin/Jadeja.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    I love how nowadays one guy performs well in 2 tests and is all of a sudden in the lead of being the greatest current alrounder.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Not you specifically but definitely others when it comes to this discussion. But I find it hilarious that when he does well then everyone becomes fair-weather fans, it was only yesterday that despite being ridiculed and dropped from the team Mo returned to save the series against the no.1 team in the world along with Woakes who was also ridiculed. For a guy that doesn't have a consistent role he has done remarkably well and sure he could do better away but he will with more experience, it's ignorant to expect too much from players on debut away tours; we've seen specialists struggle a lot worse.

    I said he is a decent LO player. But in tests I don't he can bat in the top 6 against good attacks and away from home with the ball he isn't good enough.

    Your saying he needs more experience, he's 31 and played away to every major ICC nation. How much more experience does he need ?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I love how nowadays one guy performs well in 2 tests and is all of a sudden in the lead of being the greatest current alrounder.
    Don't know if you're talking about Holder. If you are, he has been destroying teams with the ball over the last year, his batting has always been pretty good. He has definitely been the only all rounder to consistently contribute with bat and ball, others seems to only contribute in one facet at a time.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    I said he is a decent LO player. But in tests I don't he can bat in the top 6 against good attacks and away from home with the ball he isn't good enough.

    Your saying he needs more experience, he's 31 and played away to every major ICC nation. How much more experience does he need ?
    Age has nothing to do with it, if you are going to Australia for the first time to play a Test series there or another away country you can be forgiven for not setting the world on fire plus domestic and LOI cricket doesn't compare to the Test level. We can say he can't bat anywhere between 1-11 all the time but when there is a lack of consistent role then he has done an amazing job as a utility batsman and remains a huge match winner in addition to one the world's greatest all rounders right now

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    The current all-rounders rankings:

    1) Holder
    2) Shakib
    3) Moeen
    4) Stokes

    The likes of Jadeja, Philander and Ashwin are not all-rounders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    I said he is a decent LO player. But in tests I don't he can bat in the top 6 against good attacks and away from home with the ball he isn't good enough.

    Your saying he needs more experience, he's 31 and played away to every major ICC nation. How much more experience does he need ?
    Rubbish. Averages below 25 with the ball in his last seven games or so, five of which were away from home. Has a seven-wicket haul in South Africa as well and is a champion spinner at home.
    Last edited by Bilal7; 10th February 2019 at 07:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    The current all-rounders rankings:

    1) Holder
    2) Shakib
    3) Moeen
    4) Stokes

    The likes of Jadeja, Philander and Ashwin are not all-rounders.



    Rubbish. Averages below 25 with the ball in his last seven games or so, five of which were away from home. Has a seven-wicket haul in South Africa as well and is a champion spinner at home.
    Moeen averages 30 with the bat and 37 with the ball. Ashwin averages 29 with the bat and 25 with the ball. I think you got a bit confused about which one of them is not an all-rounder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I love how nowadays one guy performs well in 2 tests and is all of a sudden in the lead of being the greatest current alrounder.
    He is a good allrounder though, and we don't have the likes of Kallis or Botham around to give much competition. But he certainly has to do more away from home and against top teams. His record isn't the best right now when you break it down by country and opposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    The current all-rounders rankings:

    1) Holder
    2) Shakib
    3) Moeen
    4) Stokes

    The likes of Jadeja, Philander and Ashwin are not all-rounders.



    Rubbish. Averages below 25 with the ball in his last seven games or so, five of which were away from home. Has a seven-wicket haul in South Africa as well and is a champion spinner at home.
    Can you give me his average in Australia,New Zealand,and India please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Age has nothing to do with it, if you are going to Australia for the first time to play a Test series there or another away country you can be forgiven for not setting the world on fire plus domestic and LOI cricket doesn't compare to the Test level. We can say he can't bat anywhere between 1-11 all the time but when there is a lack of consistent role then he has done an amazing job as a utility batsman and remains a huge match winner in addition to one the world's greatest all rounders right now
    You are saying give him more time to develop. I am telling you that he is 31 and played in every major ICC nation away. So how much more improvement is he going to have ? I don't see much.

    He has done a good job at home but away from home if he is your frontline spinner, you will get nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    You are saying give him more time to develop. I am telling you that he is 31 and played in every major ICC nation away. So how much more improvement is he going to have ? I don't see much.

    He has done a good job at home but away from home if he is your frontline spinner, you will get nowhere.
    Except that he helped England win a series in Sri Lanka and has done well in the West Indies as well, this time around. He is the best spinner in England, if there was anyone better, your comments would actually have some truth behind them. Moeen would definitely not make any Asian team as the frontline spinner but then again, no one is saying he is that good and he isn't just a spinner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Can you give me his average in Australia,New Zealand,and India please?
    Australia and New Zealand? Really? How many spinners have done well there? He did not have a good time in India or the UAE but neither did any of the other English spinners. However, he did score two centuries in India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sachin136 View Post
    Moeen averages 30 with the bat and 37 with the ball. Ashwin averages 29 with the bat and 25 with the ball. I think you got a bit confused about which one of them is not an all-rounder.
    Kapil averaged around 30 with bat and ball, Razzaq averaged more with the ball than with the bat and similarly, Moeen's and Stokes's respective bowling averages are higher than their respective batting averages. However, it is obvious that all of them were/are all-rounders. Numbers do not tell you everything.

    As for Ashwin, he's done nothing of note with the bat and would not make any team on his batting merit alone.
    Last edited by Bilal7; 10th February 2019 at 18:01.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    You are saying give him more time to develop. I am telling you that he is 31 and played in every major ICC nation away. So how much more improvement is he going to have ? I don't see much.

    He has done a good job at home but away from home if he is your frontline spinner, you will get nowhere.
    How many spinners have you seen at their peak at 31 never mind the fact that he has been learning the art at Test level or be in peak form on debut tours away, we're talking Test cricket here. But beyond this Mo has been a big match winner for his country and no one has been able to replace him in England even when he was dropped; in asian conditions we play two spinners regardless and at home Mo is invincible, can carry that responsibility regardless and provides utility with the bat, we saw him make a 60 recently to on a minefield when others failed around him, there is no one in England capable of doing the job Mo has, in fact in the world; your role in the team is constantly changing yet you have the ability to change a game with bat or ball.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Except that he helped England win a series in Sri Lanka and has done well in the West Indies as well, this time around. He is the best spinner in England, if there was anyone better, your comments would actually have some truth behind them. Moeen would definitely not make any Asian team as the frontline spinner but then again, no one is saying he is that good and he isn't just a spinner.



    Australia and New Zealand? Really? How many spinners have done well there? He did not have a good time in India or the UAE but neither did any of the other English spinners. However, he did score two centuries in India.
    We compare him relative to the pool in England then Mo's value is immediately realised, we've given chances to plenty of jobbers from Hampshire etc they all threw in the towel even when Mo was unethically dropped and scapegoated in AUS, a place where he had to play with an injury when Stokes had to be away due to being a violent drunk; it's not the easiest place regardless never mind on your debut tour when you have an injury as well but he bounced back spectacularly, I don't understand the criticism at the moment ?


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    We compare him relative to the pool in England then Mo's value is immediately realised, we've given chances to plenty of jobbers from Hampshire etc they all threw in the towel even when Mo was unethically dropped and scapegoated in AUS, a place where he had to play with an injury when Stokes had to be away due to being a violent drunk; it's not the easiest place regardless never mind on your debut tour when you have an injury as well but he bounced back spectacularly, I don't understand the criticism at the moment ?
    Like you said, the undue criticism is coming from bigots (remember those "British" Indians booing him at his homeground?), haters (it is well known that some posters here predicted that he wouldn't survive international cricket beyond his first Ashes series) and people who are just plain salty that he's better than their favourites.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Like you said, the undue criticism is coming from bigots (remember those "British" Indians booing him at his homeground?), haters (it is well known that some posters here predicted that he wouldn't survive international cricket beyond his first Ashes series) and people who are just plain salty that he's better than their favourites.
    Yes, I remember those fans my family went there and had to listen to some of the disgusting abuse; I don't like talking about stuff like that or go into detail, but I have friends from the UK from that race who I grew up with and wouldn't say things like that so because of them I keep quite about it all but that was really sad and pathetic, fair enough it must hurt that he smashed them to pieces a few times and banter is fine but you don't cross certain lines. I remember that lol now he has played 50+ Test Matches and is not too far away from becoming an English A/R great.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Most of the guys who hate him are racist against beards but if my peoples were the only who lionise him then he wouldn't be playing Test cricket but no one in England has truly been able to replace him even when he is never given a consistent role so what he has accomplished is worthy of a hall of fame induction in England. I doubt you've ever showed any guts or heart to play cricket even at the club level. You don't know what it takes or have the cricketing IQ to grasp the legend of Moeen Ali who is in the top 7 or 8 all time list for most man of the match awards in England's long history, you only berate his legend because to keep childish feuds going with various posters.
    First of all, you need to learn how to talk to people you donít know.

    I may or may not have guts and heart, but it is not your place to comment on it. You are no one to judge me. Similarly, I am no one to judge you because I donít know you either.

    As far as Moeen is concerned, no one doubts his commitment and courage. It takes a lot of dedication to reach the top level. In fact, someone like Moeen had to face even more challenges and obstacles because of his background.

    However, once you donn the England jersey, you are going to be judged on your performance only, and Moeen has been nothing more than decent as a player.

    You complain about Moeen not having a consistent role, but the reason for that is Moeen himself. He has been good at home but he bottles it overseas.

    Whenever he has had a good home season and has cemented himself, he has let England down by performing shockingly on foreign tours.

    In fact, Moeen has been quite honest about his weaknesses and was the first to admit that he deserved to be dropped in Australia.

    The problem is with his rabid fans who want to put him on a pedestal and play the victim card. You might idolize him because of his story, but donít expect everyone to do so.

    Thatís the major difference between him and Stokes. The latter has done much better away from home and that is why he is rated higher. Yes he has personality problems, but I am strictly talking about cricket here.

    Every team in the world will choose Stokes over Moeen, and for good reason. The latter is not even the best spin all-rounder in the world - both Ashwin and Jadeja are better.

    As a pure batsman, Moeen is much better than both. However, he has not performed to his abilities with the bat. Performance wise, the Indian duo have done well with the bat, and they are of course miles better with the ball.

    You need to mature and not go on an incoherent tirade whenever someone objectively criticizes Moeenís performance.

    Donít expect me to entertain your posts if you continue with the personal attacks. However, I am more than happy to discuss the merits of Moeenís performance as a player within the borders of civility. It might be a challenge for you but not for me.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    First of all, you need to learn how to talk to people you don’t know.

    I may or may not have guts and heart, but it is not your place to comment on it. You are no one to judge me. Similarly, I am no one to judge you because I don’t know you either.

    As far as Moeen is concerned, no one doubts his commitment and courage. It takes a lot of dedication to reach the top level. In fact, someone like Moeen had to face even more challenges and obstacles because of his background.

    However, once you donn the England jersey, you are going to be judged on your performance only, and Moeen has been nothing more than decent as a player.

    You complain about Moeen not having a consistent role, but the reason for that is Moeen himself. He has been good at home but he bottles it overseas.

    Whenever he has had a good home season and has cemented himself, he has let England down by performing shockingly on foreign tours.

    In fact, Moeen has been quite honest about his weaknesses and was the first to admit that he deserved to be dropped in Australia.

    The problem is with his rabid fans who want to put him on a pedestal and play the victim card. You might idolize him because of his story, but don’t expect everyone to do so.

    That’s the major difference between him and Stokes. The latter has done much better away from home and that is why he is rated higher. Yes he has personality problems, but I am strictly talking about cricket here.

    Every team in the world will choose Stokes over Moeen, and for good reason. The latter is not even the best spin all-rounder in the world - both Ashwin and Jadeja are better.

    As a pure batsman, Moeen is much better than both. However, he has not performed to his abilities with the bat. Performance wise, the Indian duo have done well with the bat, and they are of course miles better with the ball.

    You need to mature and not go on an incoherent tirade whenever someone objectively criticizes Moeen’s performance.

    Don’t expect me to entertain your posts if you continue with the personal attacks. However, I am more than happy to discuss the merits of Moeen’s performance as a player within the borders of civility. It might be a challenge for you but not for me.
    First of all you might hate on beards but the fact is that Moeen at least proudly is not ashamed of who he is, there are some who assume the identity of other people then have the audacity to talk about maturity and objectivity when their agenda is quite obvious when they derail such threads with their childish tirades which always start with oh well he has support only because of x or y then don't cry if your bias towards those with beards is pointed out, I never really understood it to be honest and it's a bit weird.

    But the criticism is very ignorant, to this day Moeen is still playing for England despite being written off all the time and not being given a consistent role; that just shows how versatile he is as a cricketer and remains among England's greatest match winners of all time. Many of the haters seem to have been rubbed the wrong way by his no.2 status in the world as an A/R, but there is no one who has taken that position emphatically so it is not out of this world to consider him among the greatest right now. He could get better away for sure but your fickle opinions in this moment do not hold much weight am afraid, if they did Mo wouldn't be playing for England or rated among the best A/R's in the world.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Except that he helped England win a series in Sri Lanka and has done well in the West Indies as well, this time around. He is the best spinner in England, if there was anyone better, your comments would actually have some truth behind them. Moeen would definitely not make any Asian team as the frontline spinner but then again, no one is saying he is that good and he isn't just a spinner.



    Australia and New Zealand? Really? How many spinners have done well there? He did not have a good time in India or the UAE but neither did any of the other English spinners. However, he did score two centuries in India.

    I think Jack Leech could do a good job if given a chance. He has performed in county cricket and bowled well in Sri Lanka.

    Well I don't call every spinner the best in the world . You call Moen the best all rounder in the world, so the best in the world should be able to perform in all conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    How many spinners have you seen at their peak at 31 never mind the fact that he has been learning the art at Test level or be in peak form on debut tours away, we're talking Test cricket here. But beyond this Mo has been a big match winner for his country and no one has been able to replace him in England even when he was dropped; in asian conditions we play two spinners regardless and at home Mo is invincible, can carry that responsibility regardless and provides utility with the bat, we saw him make a 60 recently to on a minefield when others failed around him, there is no one in England capable of doing the job Mo has, in fact in the world; your role in the team is constantly changing yet you have the ability to change a game with bat or ball.

    You are fine to your opinion. But I don't see Moen improving significant with the ball away from home. The reason he has had a inconsistent role is because the role he is given isn't working so England need to change.

    His best role is at number 8 in England. In Asia he should bat 7 but never ever be the frontline spinner in Asia.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    You are fine to your opinion. But I don't see Moen improving significant with the ball away from home. The reason he has had a inconsistent role is because the role he is given isn't working so England need to change.

    His best role is at number 8 in England. In Asia he should bat 7 but never ever be the frontline spinner in Asia.
    If you constantly floating someone then you're going to get the expected results, but Mo's numbers don't do him justice either because he does what the team requires in that moment in time so from that POV he is an extremely valuable Test cricketer for England and his MOM worthy performances vindicate that.

    Whether England accept it or not or folk like yourself, he has assumed the role of frontline spinner by default but that's not to say he is not going to have any support in the spin department when in Asia. Regarding his lack of improvement, he has been bowling quite well since his return home and away; Saqi is on board to and will do a great job am sure


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Stokes and Holder are untouchable right now as the best all-rounders in world cricket. Both are monsters in terms of impact.

    Very impressed by how far Holder has come. Stokes has always been blockbuster, but Holder started off really ordinary.

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    Luv him, big fan!

    Has always had it in him since u-19 world cup.

    If it was up to some he would have been discarded.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

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    Stokes is ahead of Moeen but Moeen is a good player as well. He has got 5 fifers and five hundreds as well. He should show more ability with the bat but he has done a fine job with bowl IMO and definitely can be considered an all-rounder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    I think Jack Leech could do a good job if given a chance. He has performed in county cricket and bowled well in Sri Lanka.

    Well I don't call every spinner the best in the world . You call Moen the best all rounder in the world, so the best in the world should be able to perform in all conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    You are fine to your opinion. But I don't see Moen improving significant with the ball away from home. The reason he has had a inconsistent role is because the role he is given isn't working so England need to change.

    His best role is at number 8 in England. In Asia he should bat 7 but never ever be the frontline spinner in Asia.
    It doesn't matter what you think. Going by actual performances, Moeen is easily the best spinner in all of England today. I am amused that you went from "Moeen should not be the frontline spinner away from home" to "Moeen should not be the frontline spinner in Asia" in a matter of hours.

    I never called him the best all-rounder in the world. I clearly stated in this very thread that Shakib and Holder are better all-rounders. Your case against Moeen is extremely weak.

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    Moeen needs to contribute more with the bat. Barring that 60 in the second test, his batting hasnít been that great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think. Going by actual performances, Moeen is easily the best spinner in all of England today. I am amused that you went from "Moeen should not be the frontline spinner away from home" to "Moeen should not be the frontline spinner in Asia" in a matter of hours.

    I never called him the best all-rounder in the world. I clearly stated in this very thread that Shakib and Holder are better all-rounders. Your case against Moeen is extremely weak.

    Must have been a typo era. He shouldn’t be the front line spinner in Asia and outside of Asia.


    My argument is weak, look at his bowling average in Australia, India, and New Zealand. If you want that bowler as your front line spinner you are even more clueless than I thought.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 12th February 2019 at 00:49.


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