The ineptness of the Indian Air Force

[Varun]

Might as well start this thread sooner rather than later, even though I have scattered this opinion in previous threads randomly in the past.

Fact remains that one or more planes were lost and one or more pilots have been captured today.

Same thing happened in Kargil when the PAF didn't even take to the skies.

In between whiles, we pulled out of any potential engagements one the PAF were 'activated' on the night of 26/11. Going back I believe the PAF one-upped us in 1965 too.

And we fly hundreds of Soviet-era craft and crash planes multiple times a year. In all, we fly 7 platforms from various countries, will be adding two more (Rafale, Tejas) at the expense of crores of taxpayer's rupees, and yet the powers that be can't stop hankering for more ad more phoren equipment while acting all step-fatherly to the homegrown industry like HAL.

I hope there is a silent review in the background of the IAF and with adequate changes made if necessary. The navy has been much more potent and successful in its indigenization efforts today and in the past.

Maybe others like @the Great Khan can chime in.

[Dr_Bassim]

First Indians have to believe that Indian Air Force is inept.

According to them they killed 300 people in under 2 minutes, or they stayed 21 minutes in Pakistan all the way near KPK and no one touched them and they killed 300 people and then they ran away successfully.

If you believe the above claim, Indian Air Force is a successful entity.

[Varun]

First Indians have to believe that Indian Air Force is inept.

According to them they killed 300 people in under 2 minutes, or they stayed 21 minutes in Pakistan all the way near KPK and no one touched them and they killed 300 people and then they ran away successfully.

Myth. We are in 2019 and everybody has a cellphone camera, and access to platforms like Twitter. When our chopper went down, it was a flaming wreck and we all knew about it.

300 people die, an F-16 supposedly goes down and it's only chirping crickets. Yeah, okay.

[WhenSultansBowled]

My opinion might be an unpopular here in this regard to some Indians (and Pakistanis): but India (and Pakistan) shouldn't spend any further in buying military hardware

As the Pakistani military spokesperson said: the fact that 2 Indian planes crashed is not a cause of celebration for Pakistan.

This drama will die out soon, T-1day to elections! Then the warmongers will fall to sleep until next elections.

[Varun]

My opinion might be an unpopular here in this regard to some Indians (and Pakistanis): but India (and Pakistan) shouldn't spend any further in buying further military hardware

As the Pakistani military spokesperson said: the fact that 2 Indian planes crashed is not a cause of celebration for Pakistan.

This drama will die out soon, T-1day to elections! Then the warmongers will fall to sleep until next elections.

It's not like this happens prior to every Indian elections. Nothing happened in Feb 2014. Or Feb 2009. Or Feb 2004. We were in fact playing cricket during the latter.

Modi is a special kind of idiot though.

[DRsohail]

My opinion might be an unpopular here in this regard to some Indians (and Pakistanis): but India (and Pakistan) shouldn't spend any further in buying military hardware

As the Pakistani military spokesperson said: the fact that 2 Indian planes crashed is not a cause of celebration for Pakistan.

This drama will die out soon, T-1day to elections! Then the warmongers will fall to sleep until next elections.

I will be good if calmness comes.no need to waste money on these things.

[IAJ]

@Varun, if this is not a troll thread, I must say you are a brave man. It’s not easy to admit failure of own military personell.

[Varun]

@Varun, if this is not a trolm thread, I must say you are a brave man. It’s not easy to admit failure of own military personell.

Why do you think it's a troll thread?

Our Air Force gets our planes shot down and our pilots captured. In the 20th century and the 21st. Fact.

[IAJ]

Why do you think it's a troll thread?

Our Air Force gets our planes shot down and our pilots captured. In the 20th century and the 21st. Fact.

Ok, be ready for some PMs from Joshila and his students.

[MosheD]

@Varun, if this is not a troll thread, I must say you are a brave man. It’s not easy to admit failure of own military personell.

its not hard lol . Lost a jet to a nation that is fraction of your size. Goes contrary to the narrative of economic and thus military muscle supremacy

[Mueez]

My respect for Varun has increased.

@Varun

[Jin Chacha]

Slightly offtopic but a BBC report mentioned that the India aircraft shot down today weren't intentionally entering Pakistani airspace while chasing the Pakistani jets but were 'pushed into Pakistan due to the wind direction'. I am no military expert so don't know how credible that is.

Having said that while the PAF did well today, the margins of error in these things are so small that drawing a conclusion from one engagement is impossible. It could just as easily have been a Pakistani jet crashing on the Indian side and then everyone's response would have been completely different. The only problem is that both countries have similar capabilities in terms of airpower but the Indian media raises unrealistic expectations by comparing the India-Pakistan military equation with US-Pakistan especially after the Abottabad raid.

[90MPH]

A small country like Israel is light years ahead of India and Pakistan.

But even they had their F16 shot down in Syria last year by Iranian revolutionary guards.

You can have the best planes but once they are locked by a top of the range anti ballistic missile there is nothing they can do.

[WhenSultansBowled]

It's not like this happens prior to every Indian elections. Nothing happened in Feb 2014. Or Feb 2009. Or Feb 2004. We were in fact playing cricket during the latter.

Modi is a special kind of idiot though.

What Indian authorities should have done is go after him after the Gujarat massacre. He should have been prosecuted.

But as the Spanish saying goes hierba mala nunca muere (bad weed never dies). He is a villain and will persist until the last moment.

After decades Pakistan has a Government who ain't thinking how to launder money to Panama or Davos

but

IK's government is doing actions to make peoples' lives better. The Nooras and Zardaris are getting investigated and going to jails.

And now comes all this .....

[GBK_Fan]

This thread sums up my view on this entire fiasco. We don’t manufacture our own planes, we fly planes built in 1950s and somehow we underestimate anything coming out of Pakistan. If we really want to be aggressive how about building some muscle first.

I don’t believe it’s just down to the government. This exposes the war mongers in our Army and Air Force as well, who for years have underestimated our adversary.

[Romali_rotti]

As long as India is flying the wonderful MIG 21 BISON, no need for Pakistan to worry as those flying coffins will get the Indian pilots killed naturally without them moving a peep...

[sensible-indian-fan]

As long as India is flying the wonderful MIG 21 BISON, no need for Pakistan to worry as those flying coffins will get the Indian pilots killed naturally without them moving a peep...

What were Pakistanis flying?

[GBK_Fan]

Slightly offtopic but a BBC report mentioned that the India aircraft shot down today weren't intentionally entering Pakistani airspace while chasing the Pakistani jets but were 'pushed into Pakistan due to the wind direction'. I am no military expert so don't know how credible that is.

Having said that while the PAF did well today, the margins of error in these things are so small that drawing a conclusion from one engagement is impossible. It could just as easily have been a Pakistani jet crashing on the Indian side and then everyone's response would have been completely different. The only problem is that both countries have similar capabilities in terms of airpower but the Indian media raises unrealistic expectations by comparing the India-Pakistan military equation with US-Pakistan especially after the Abottabad raid.

This is a fair post. The sad part is we as civilians can think this through. The nutcases in the top brass of the army and airforce dont

[Azzurri]

It’s so stupid that we are still fighting. I just received a message from a Greek friend of mine wishing peace between pak and India. At the end of the day of War happens things will eventually cool down but the war will take thousands of not millions of lives. Subsequently we will be back to where we stand now.
We must engage and solve our issues. How many more generations have to suffer?

[MosheD]

A small country like Israel is light years ahead of India and Pakistan.

But even they had their F16 shot down in Syria last year by Iranian revolutionary guards.

You can have the best planes but once they are locked by a top of the range anti ballistic missile there is nothing they can do.

Except this seemed like it was a dogfight ... PAF skills were simply better. Getting a missle-lock by an S-300 or S-400 and thus losing a jet is understandable, but losing jets in a dogfight against a supposedly inferior enemy is fairly humiliating

[Romali_rotti]

What were Pakistanis flying?

Pak operates the JF Thunder despite being a pretty below avg plane, is miles ahead of the MIG 21 Bison.. That kinda tells you the issue here lol .. Pakistani f16s are ok but they are no match for our Sukhoi MKI but those assets mainly only come out on a full blown war...

[pillionrider]

Varun, I'm not regular here so don't know what your status quo with @cricketjoshila is, but expect an assault from him.

Not a rabid Armed Forces chest thumper, but think this thread is a little negative thinking. From what Imran said in his speech today, Pak fighters entered/tried to enter Indian airspace without any aim of targeting civilian or military posts, the IAF tried to send them back, and in the process one of the planes entered Pak air spce who this time around were waiting and shot it down. Don't see how this is an example of ineptitude. Most likely the IAF plane was brought down by Pak ground forces.

[Kroll]

Don't be too harsh, they still managed to get into Pak airspace without being challenged and got out again.

[sensible-indian-fan]

Pak operates the JF Thunder despite being a pretty below avg plane, is miles ahead of the MIG 21 Bison.. That kinda tells you the issue here lol .. Pakistani f16s are ok but they are no match for our Sukhoi MKI but those assets mainly only come out on a full blown war...

Oh ok thanks.

Why would IAF fighters not be given a decent plane if there is going to be an attack?

And IAF was expecting this attack.

Did they underestimate Pak?

[sensible-indian-fan]

I wonder what USA operates.

Surely something that would smoke everything we all have right

How good is Rafale compared to these?

[Madplayer]

Is there any news on which plane Pakistan used today?

[MosheD]

Oh ok thanks.

Why would IAF fighters not be given a decent plane if there is going to be an attack?

And IAF was expecting this attack.

Did they underestimate Pak?

something about thresholds. Putting out your best hardware indicates you are out for an all-out war.
The Migs are junk and its amazing that it has been deployed in the frontline

[Romali_rotti]

Oh ok thanks.

Why would IAF fighters not be given a decent plane if there is going to be an attack?

And IAF was expecting this attack.

Did they underestimate Pak?

Yeap underestimating is the cause... LOL nearly 40 years of trying to build a jet an Tejas is still not combat ready ........................ This is why you want to BAN companies like HAL, and believe me you dont want the Rafales going to HAL they will destroy it, thank god for Anil Ambani and his crew for getting the Rafale contract.....

[Romali_rotti]

I wonder what USA operates.

Surely something that would smoke everything we all have right

How good is Rafale compared to these?

It really depends, both the Sukhoi MKI and Rafale kind of serve different purposes, Rafale would be slightly advanced due to it's aerodynamics etc.. The_Great-Khan or Joshilia can elaborate further, they are the masters on fighter jets... USA operates technology that is almost Alien, rumours of their F-22 Raptor aka the most advanced bird in the sky was reverse engineered from a fallen Alien space craft... Could have truth to it as the Raptors are virtually impossible to locate on the most advanced of radars available today... If the F-22 Raptor enter's your airspace, THEN YOU ARE DEAD within 30 minutes it can do irreversible amount of damage to the enemy..

[sensible-indian-fan]

something about thresholds. Putting out your best hardware indicates you are out for an all-out war.
The Migs are junk and its amazing that it has been deployed in the frontline

Yeap underestimating is the cause... LOL nearly 40 years of trying to build a jet an Tejas is still not combat ready ........................ This is why you want to BAN companies like HAL, and believe me you dont want the Rafales going to HAL they will destroy it, thank god for Anil Ambani and his crew for getting the Rafale contract.....

Interesting. Thanks for the info guys.

[sensible-indian-fan]

It really depends, both the Sukhoi MKI and Rafale kind of serve different purposes, Rafale would be slightly advanced due to it's aerodynamics etc.. The_Great-Khan or Joshilia can elaborate further, they are the masters on fighter jets... USA operates technology that is almost Alien, rumours of their F-22 Raptor aka the most advanced bird in the sky was reverse engineered from a fallen Alien space craft... Could have truth to it as the Raptors are virtually impossible to locate on the most advanced of radars available today... If the F-22 Raptor enter's your airspace, THEN YOU ARE DEAD within 30 minutes it can do irreversible amount of damage to the enemy..

Wow.... That's crazy.

[IAJ]

Varun, I'm not regular here so don't know what your status quo with @cricketjoshila is, but expect an assault from him.

Not a rabid Armed Forces chest thumper, but think this thread is a little negative thinking. From what Imran said in his speech today, Pak fighters entered/tried to enter Indian airspace without any aim of targeting civilian or military posts, the IAF tried to send them back, and in the process one of the planes entered Pak air spce who this time around were waiting and shot it down. Don't see how this is an example of ineptitude. Most likely the IAF plane was brought down by Pak ground forces.

And the other one?

[pillionrider]

Remember seeing a defence expert talking a few days back where he mentioned we don't even have enough ammunition to last a 10 day full scale war with Pak. Expect the situation to be the same across the border. Both these countries' general populace overestimate their war capabilities and a large chunk of Indian defence equipment is classified as vintage by those in the know.

[Varun]

Remember seeing a defence expert talking a few days back where he mentioned we don't even have enough ammunition to last a 10 day full scale war with Pak. Expect the situation to be the same across the border. Both these countries' general populace overestimate their war capabilities and a large chunk of Indian defence equipment is classified as vintage by those in the know.

Let's face it, the two 72-year old aunties have just one trick: fire a few shots and look towards the US to restore the status-quo.

There's always so much talk of nuclear weapons - has anybody checked whether these claims are what is advertised?

[pillionrider]

There's always so much talk of nuclear weapons - has anybody checked whether these claims are what is advertised?

Under Vajpayee when we tested, remember foreign experts being skeptical about the claims...

[PakPremi]

Aaj Tak or ABP News still claiming Pak F16 was shot down by Indian MIG 21. Lol
Media need to stop chest thumping and spread peace talks not battle cries.

[amax]

Both PAF and IAF are very professional forces and doing excellent job in limited resources.

[WhenSultansBowled]

Aaj Tak or ABP News still claiming Pak F16 was shot down by Indian MIG 21. Lol
Media need to stop chest thumping and spread peace talks not battle cries.

No one is interested in peace. Especially the Indian media. No credibility whatsoever.

[Braveheart]

Surprising how pathetic the IAF have been, considering they are trained and equipped by the experienced Zionists.

[troodon]

Shameful from India. Fully deserved for underestimating Pak air force.

This is not Looking good for Modi and BJP.

[kabbirann]

I would say more the ineptness of the ganwar leaders and the corrupt bureaucracy to which the armed forces in India are totally subservient.
I hate the chest thumping civilians who will use the Indian armed forces as cannon fodder for their political purposes yet forget all about them when it comes to supporting them with good salaries ,pensions and equipment.

[Adijazz1706]

Yeap underestimating is the cause... LOL nearly 40 years of trying to build a jet an Tejas is still not combat ready ........................ This is why you want to BAN companies like HAL, and believe me you dont want the Rafales going to HAL they will destroy it, thank god for Anil Ambani and his crew for getting the Rafale contract.....

Anil Ambani is going bankrupt and having to pay back dues, he's downright incompetent

[last_knight]

Aaj Tak or ABP News still claiming Pak F16 was shot down by Indian MIG 21. Lol
Media need to stop chest thumping and spread peace talks not battle cries.

Problem is with us picking only aggressive versions from Media. It's not like a channel is not talking about Peace at all. May be escalating version is predominant currently on either side of border but de-escalating school of thought is not absent altogether. Let's say it's 80-20 split between warmongering and De-escalating. Every media house will have shared views and analysts. Problem is with us. We need to stop picking from 80% side and start picking from 20%.

[Varun]

Anil Ambani is going bankrupt and having to pay back dues, he's downright incompetent

And has built a grand total of ZERO fighter planes in his 'illustrious' career.

[troodon]

So what next? Will India try again to enter Pak territory?

[Syed1]

is there any news on which plane pakistan used today?

jf-17

[Syed1]

I just hope this results in a heavy election defeat for Modi and some one else takes charge in India who is not a warmonger.

[Varun]

I just hope this results in a heavy election defeat for Modi and some one else takes charge in India who is not a warmonger.

Best case scenario is actually Modi remaining PM but with his wings clipped massively - BJP needing a heavy coalition to be afloat.

Let him learn the hard way. Worked out fine with Vajpayee.

[Syed1]

Varun, I'm not regular here so don't know what your status quo with @cricketjoshila is, but expect an assault from him.

Not a rabid Armed Forces chest thumper, but think this thread is a little negative thinking. From what Imran said in his speech today, Pak fighters entered/tried to enter Indian airspace without any aim of targeting civilian or military posts, the IAF tried to send them back, and in the process one of the planes entered Pak air spce who this time around were waiting and shot it down. Don't see how this is an example of ineptitude. Most likely the IAF plane was brought down by Pak ground forces.

No the videos are every where on social media of the JF-17 pilot who shot down the MIG.

[pillionrider]

No the videos are every where on social media of the JF-17 pilot who shot down the MIG.

Ok. Am off social media for days.

[Varun]

Ok. Am off social media for days.

Believe me, you're not missing much.

[ARK Rafay]

Both these countries' general populace overestimate their war capabilities and a large chunk of Indian defence equipment is classified as vintage by those in the know.

Agree. And the civilians and soldiers will suffer the most.

[pillionrider]

Believe me, you're not missing much.

It gets insane in times like this.

[PakLFC]

Indian air force is only talked up by their media. In reality they're always making silly errors.

[Realromeo]

Might as well start this thread sooner rather than later, even though I have scattered this opinion in previous threads randomly in the past.

Fact remains that one or more planes were lost and one or more pilots have been captured today.

Same thing happened in Kargil when the PAF didn't even take to the skies.

In between whiles, we pulled out of any potential engagements one the PAF were 'activated' on the night of 26/11. Going back I believe the PAF one-upped us in 1965 too.

And we fly hundreds of Soviet-era craft and crash planes multiple times a year. In all, we fly 7 platforms from various countries, will be adding two more (Rafale, Tejas) at the expense of crores of taxpayer's rupees, and yet the powers that be can't stop hankering for more ad more phoren equipment while acting all step-fatherly to the homegrown industry like HAL.

I hope there is a silent review in the background of the IAF and with adequate changes made if necessary. The navy has been much more potent and successful in its indigenization efforts today and in the past.

Maybe others like @the Great Khan can chime in.

Stupid thread, IAF is one of the best in the world, Top-7 easily. The Pakistan knows it and hence have piled up on beefing their Defence. Can't confirm but heard PAF pilots go through more hours and selection procedures are more rigid. Give credits to Pakistan and move on. These aren't numbers to chest thump, they are human beings. There is a military culture in Pakistan, there isn't one in India. They know we have superior equipments so they have practiced for it. This is not movies. Give credits and move on.

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Best we have got is sukhoi which is used only during actual wars. US has F22 or something we need to develop something like that indigenous. Hope this is taken as a lesson and we suspend usage of all MIG's at-least now.

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Stupid thread, IAF is one of the best in the world, Top-7 easily. The Pakistan knows it and hence have piled up on beefing their Defence. Can't confirm but heard PAF pilots go through more hours and selection procedures are more rigid. Give credits to Pakistan and move on. These aren't numbers to chest thump, they are human beings. There is a military culture in Pakistan, there isn't one in India. They know we have superior equipments so they have practiced for it. This is not movies. Give credits and move on.

IAF is in the top 6 bu we can be better. We should compare ourselves with US/ Isreal/ China and not Pak and be content.

[Lonewarrior]

so this junk fighter brought down 2 IAF jets ?

[JaDed]

Yes ,not the pilots but planes, even making a Bollywood movie couldn't help.

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Yes ,not the pilots but planes, even making a Bollywood movie couldn't help.

Actually in the movie, they aborted the air route so ironically returned safe

[Despo]

I thought u r Indian 😮

[Realromeo]

Best we have got is sukhoi which is used only during actual wars. US has F22 or something we need to develop something like that indigenous. Hope this is taken as a lesson and we suspend usage of all MIG's at-least now.

"only used in actual wars" ? LOL There will never be on. So we send two three old, outdated aircrafts for what ? Su-30 would have shot down the F-16 that brought down the Mig-21. This is like us playing WC with Vinay Kumar, RP Singh and Ramesh Powar lol.

[Realromeo]

IAF is in the top 6 bu we can be better. We should compare ourselves with US/ Isreal/ China and not Pak and be content.

In this order, USAF, RFA, Russia, Israel, French, South Korea, Japan, China.

We and Pak fall somewhere between French and China. PAF has well trained pilots, weak toys, but very good pilots. PAF pilots aren't to be underestimated. Honest opinion, I think our overall Airforce is better than Pakistan`s but Pak probably has better skilled pilots. Just my strong opinion.

[troodon]

"only used in actual wars" ? LOL There will never be on. So we send two three old, outdated aircrafts for what ? Su-30 would have shot down the F-16 that brought down the Mig-21. This is like us playing WC with Vinay Kumar, RP Singh and Ramesh Powar lol.

I kind of agree. Saving Bumrah for the 20th over when the match is over in the initial 10 overs due to the likes of Umesh, Dinda and Shankar leaking runs.

I am no expert in India's defensive capabilities, but using old outdated aircrafts for this operation is pathetic. I am not sure why India opted for Migs, but I agree that if India are saving Sukhoi's for the real war, then that will never happen.

[cricketjoshila]

And has built a grand total of ZERO fighter planes in his 'illustrious' career.

And he is not going to build any as well. All 36 Rafales are coming from Dassault factory in France.

[Greenstorm]

There must be a lot of corruption in Indian defence setup, otherwise IAF must have done something. At the end of the day, its IAF who is losing its pilots even at peace time, yet they are relying on civilians for contracts which never materialize.

[Varun]

And he is not going to build any as well. All 36 Rafales are coming from Dassault factory in France.

Of course, but I was alluding to the fact that the newborn hatched egg "Reliance Defence" has been awarded an offset contract by Dassaut.

[JaDed]

Actually in the movie, they aborted the air route so ironically returned safe

Rang de basanti

[Realromeo]

It really depends, both the Sukhoi MKI and Rafale kind of serve different purposes, Rafale would be slightly advanced due to it's aerodynamics etc.. The_Great-Khan or Joshilia can elaborate further, they are the masters on fighter jets... USA operates technology that is almost Alien, rumours of their F-22 Raptor aka the most advanced bird in the sky was reverse engineered from a fallen Alien space craft... Could have truth to it as the Raptors are virtually impossible to locate on the most advanced of radars available today... If the F-22 Raptor enter's your airspace, THEN YOU ARE DEAD within 30 minutes it can do irreversible amount of damage to the enemy..

LOL what ? Fallen from Alien Space ? LOL okay there. But you see, Russia builds butt whooping Defense system, pretty sure they already have one that are working. This is what superpowers do, sometimes they won't let it out in the open. They don't need to. Only we chest thump. USA is not giving F-22 to us. It will start with Israel or Canada and then come back to us.

[Varun]

USA is not giving F-22 to us. It will start with Israel or Canada and then come back to us.

The F-22 is not available for export to anybody. Even the US has ended production of this type after inducting 189 of it.

[the Great Khan]

Look alot of Indians are probably critical of their Air forces performance. What you should be asking is what were their mission parameters? what orders were they given? what were their rules of engagement?

Its quite clear that the IAF had rehearsed this action as they had predicted our response time at night. They were probably given ROE's not to engage the PAF and just give a message hence releasing their payload early and then moving off. remember if reports from india are accurate the PAF was facing a large force possibly 6-12 planes so if they were to engage they could have easily done so and probably done some major damage. o lets not say they were incompetent. they either knew their target was a hit/miss one or they were meant to hit something else and retreated. That is for you guys to figure out.

Moving onto todays incident. i have just read on the net that one aircraft was a Mig-21 being escorted by an SU30 sent for interception. Both aircraft were engaged by thunders and taken out. one crashed on our side the other on the other side. I cannot confirm the loss of the SU30 but the bison is now confirmed.

Coming onto capability. i think this should silence those that think the thunder is mediocre. It is now combat proven. Simple fact. It has ended the argument of its capability vs the bison and potentially against the SU30. (we will await confirmation as it could have been a MIG-29). Either way as of today, the JF17 carried out six strikes by evading Indiand air defences in Indian kashmir, successfully completed its mission, shot down two IAF fighters and returned home. Not bad for a mediocre piece of junk.

Finally coming to overall capability. You have to remember when it comes to these engagements the odds are relatively even. Also take into account that we have been fighting a war for ten years. our forces are battle hardened and have been going through intense combat situations. Including the PAF. We have had to track the USAF which operates i afghanistan and have had experience of combat against the soviet union in the past too. We have also been training intensly against the SU30 so have doctrines to counter it. Our biggest ally is Indias overconfidence, HAL, and India's lack of ability to get rid of aircraft like the MIG-21. As long as you continue to deploy craft like the MIG-21 in situations like today you will lose. End of. As for the Raphael. All I'll say is that thing is a beast in our region but we have already flown against it. e.g. Red flag and in the mid east. We've also flown against the f22.

Another thing to note is that the IAF have never flown against the thunder till today. They have plenty of experience against the F16 but im sure they will learn lessons from today.

Overall today was a great day for a heavily outnumbered small but dedicated force. Our defence budget is ten times smaller than yours so I would question what that money is paying for rather than blame pilots who are professional and jsut follow orders..also i would question what orders they are getting and why..

[cricketjoshila]

Of course, but I was alluding to the fact that the newborn hatched egg "Reliance Defence" has been awarded an offset contract by Dassaut.

So? He will falcon business jet parts for Dassault. India is not buying those business jets. Whats our concern?

Btw in 1999 PAF took to skies. But they had no BVR capability and were locked on by BVR capable IAF jets. They stood down.

The IAF had complete air superiority in 1971.

Today also the least capable IAF jet took on the most capable PAF jet.

Sometimes in your hate for Modi, you forget you have a country India.

[Varun]

Moving onto todays incident. i have just read on the net that one aircraft was a Mig-21 being escorted by an SU30 sent for interception. Both aircraft were engaged by thunders and taken out. one crashed on our side the other on the other side. I cannot confirm the loss of the SU30 but the bison is now confirmed.

Thanks for your insights, but there is absolutely zero evidence that an MKI has been taken down. Your post is the first I have heard of such.

If we have indeed lost an Su-30, the IAF is infinitely more incompetent than I imagined.

[troodon]

So? He will falcon business jet parts for Dassault. India is not buying those business jets. Whats our concern?

Btw in 1999 PAF took to skies. But they had no BVR capability and were locked on by BVR capable IAF jets. They stood down.

The IAF had complete air superiority in 1971.

Today also the least capable IAF jet took on the most capable PAF jet.

Sometimes in your hate for Modi, you forget you have a country India.

Question is why send your least capable Jet knowing that Pak will employ their best Jet?

A massive failure in terms of planning by our defense analysts.

[Varun]

Question is why send your least capable Jet knowing that Pak will employ their best Jet?

A massive failure in terms of planning by our defense analysts.

And the JF-17 is not Pakistan's 'best' jet. It's their version of the Tejas - a homegrown fighter with some foreign (Chinese) help.

Versus which we threw a Vietnam war era fighter. Go figure.

[Adijazz1706]

Look alot of Indians are probably critical of their Air forces performance. What you should be asking is what were their mission parameters? what orders were they given? what were their rules of engagement?

Its quite clear that the IAF had rehearsed this action as they had predicted our response time at night. They were probably given ROE's not to engage the PAF and just give a message hence releasing their payload early and then moving off. remember if reports from india are accurate the PAF was facing a large force possibly 6-12 planes so if they were to engage they could have easily done so and probably done some major damage. o lets not say they were incompetent. they either knew their target was a hit/miss one or they were meant to hit something else and retreated. That is for you guys to figure out.

Moving onto todays incident. i have just read on the net that one aircraft was a Mig-21 being escorted by an SU30 sent for interception. Both aircraft were engaged by thunders and taken out. one crashed on our side the other on the other side. I cannot confirm the loss of the SU30 but the bison is now confirmed.

Coming onto capability. i think this should silence those that think the thunder is mediocre. It is now combat proven. Simple fact. It has ended the argument of its capability vs the bison and potentially against the SU30. (we will await confirmation as it could have been a MIG-29). Either way as of today, the JF17 carried out six strikes by evading Indiand air defences in Indian kashmir, successfully completed its mission, shot down two IAF fighters and returned home. Not bad for a mediocre piece of junk.

Finally coming to overall capability. You have to remember when it comes to these engagements the odds are relatively even. Also take into account that we have been fighting a war for ten years. our forces are battle hardened and have been going through intense combat situations. Including the PAF. We have had to track the USAF which operates i afghanistan and have had experience of combat against the soviet union in the past too. We have also been training intensly against the SU30 so have doctrines to counter it. Our biggest ally is Indias overconfidence, HAL, and India's lack of ability to get rid of aircraft like the MIG-21. As long as you continue to deploy craft like the MIG-21 in situations like today you will lose. End of. As for the Raphael. All I'll say is that thing is a beast in our region but we have already flown against it. e.g. Red flag and in the mid east. We've also flown against the f22.

Another thing to note is that the IAF have never flown against the thunder till today. They have plenty of experience against the F16 but im sure they will learn lessons from today.

Overall today was a great day for a heavily outnumbered small but dedicated force. Our defence budget is ten times smaller than yours so I would question what that money is paying for rather than blame pilots who are professional and jsut follow orders..also i would question what orders they are getting and why..

TGK with some in depth insight as always, too bad your Indian Indian colleague has gone missing

[Adijazz1706]

So? He will falcon business jet parts for Dassault. India is not buying those business jets. Whats our concern?

Btw in 1999 PAF took to skies. But they had no BVR capability and were locked on by BVR capable IAF jets. They stood down.

The IAF had complete air superiority in 1971.

Today also the least capable IAF jet took on the most capable PAF jet.

Sometimes in your hate for Modi, you forget you have a country India.

The JF-17 isn't Pakistan's best jet, that'd probably be the F-16. Rid yourself of jingoism and you'll be able to see much more clearly

[Realromeo]

So? He will falcon business jet parts for Dassault. India is not buying those business jets. Whats our concern?

Btw in 1999 PAF took to skies. But they had no BVR capability and were locked on by BVR capable IAF jets. They stood down.

The IAF had complete air superiority in 1971.

Today also the least capable IAF jet took on the most capable PAF jet.

Sometimes in your hate for Modi, you forget you have a country India.

LOL don't make attempts to hold him hostage in the name of Patriotism. Modi is a criminal, you can hate on Modi and also be a proud Indian.

[cricketjoshila]

Question is why send your least capable Jet knowing that Pak will employ their best Jet?

A massive failure in terms of planning by our defense analysts.

Mig 21 bisons fly CAPs inside Indian territory. They responded to the F16s and engaged them and took one down.

Most likely they were nearest to the F16s most likely and hence intercepted them.

[cricketjoshila]

LOL don't make attempts to hold him hostage in the name of Patriotism. Modi is a criminal, you can hate on Modi and also be a proud Indian.

He can hate Modi all he wants. In this thread he is talking about the IAF.