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  1. #1
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    Who was the greater cricketer overall - Imran Khan or Malcolm Marshall?

    Both Imran Khan and Malcolm Marshall were simply a collosus amongst cricketers .Both were equally determined and fierce revealing agression of a tiger on the cricket field field.Few fast bowling all-rounders were more impactful in their eras who virtually defined them.

    Marshall was in my opinion the more talented,creative versatile or complete pace bowler.Imran swung the ball more prodigiously and may have even been a fraction quicker but Marshall was the more deceptive bowling inswing and outswing with the same action.He disguised his delivery with the ingenuity of a magician.Arguably Imran was a better performer on the sub-continent but he also played much more cricket on flat tracks at home than Marshall.Marshall resembled the perfect bowling machine or posessed the perfect pace bowling package more than anyone with his subtle variations and mastery of the slower ball.Arguably no right arm bowler defined pace bowling bio-dynamics to the height of Marshall.Above all he stood out as a component of the greatest pace attack ever which is all the more remarkable.Neverthless it is Imran who was still the greater master of reverse swing.Marshall also had the advantage of greater support from other members of the West Indies pace attack.Arguably it was Imran who was the greater trier when the chips were down .

    No doubt Imran was the better batsmen with a better technique,more composure and sounder defence.Marshall could have been more effective in attacking strokeplay.Imran overshadowed Marshal as a batsmen in a crisis.Statistically he was a street ahead as a batsmen over Marshall.,averaging twice more and having 6 test centuries to his name.Marshall never scored a test hundred but scored some scintillating fifties all over the world.I believe that Marshall would have shaped into a genuine all-rounder and been more effective as batsmen if he played for a weaker team.

    Where Imran had a distinct edge was his contribution as a skipper with his leadership resembling that of a military commander.

    What boosts Marshall is his being a major component of what was arguably the best test team ever and being a major architect of its great wins.




    Statistically Marshall overshadowed Imran as a pace bowler.Statistically in peak era Imran may have been ahead but overall Marshall had better statsMarshal overshadowed Imran in games won with far greater percentage of scalps in tests which West Indies won .Overall Imran by a margin of 7 balls had a better strike rate and also averaged around 2 runs less.However Imran unlike Marshall captured 7 or more wickets 5 times ,including 2 5 wicket hauls.Imran also had more 5 and 10 wicket hauls.Imran's best bowling spells were marginally ahead of Marshal's best like his 8-60 v India at Karachi and 7-49 v England.Marshall also had the advantage of greater support from other members of the West Indies pace attack.




    Some experts ranked Marshal ahead of Imran in their ranking of 100 best cricketers of all time like David Gower,John Woodcock and Cristopher Martin Jenkins.However I disagree taking into account Imran's achievements as a captain and prowess as a batsmen.In an all-time X1 still I would choose Marshall to accompany Wasim,Warne and Lillee rather than Imran.Malcolm literally took the art of fast bowling to regions unexplored.Arguably Marshall as pace bowler was more effective than Imran as an all-rounder as Imran was not at his best with both bat and ball.Marshall is a strong contender for the best fast bowler of all -time.Still by a whisker it was Imran who in my view was the more impactful and better cricketer overall. Being the best all-rounder in the world from 1981-87 speaks for itself.Imran shaped Pakistan cricket more than Marshall shaped West Indian cricket and was more deserving in joining the Tendulkar's or Viv Richards.

    STATISTICS-MALCOLM MARSHALL FROM S.RAJESH OF CRICINFO

    Malcolm Marshall's Test career Period Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
    Before 1983 12 34 31.88 65.2 0/ 0
    1983 onwards 69 342 19.85 44.9 22/ 4
    Career 81 376 20.94 46.7 22/ 4

    Best Test bowlers between 1983 and 1991 (Qual: 125 wickets) Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
    Richard Hadlee 48 262 19.64 47.4 23/ 6
    Malcolm Marshall 69 342 19.85 44.9 22/ 4
    Joel Garner 30 135 21.28 48.3 5/ 0
    Imran Khan 42 156 21.49 50.5 10/ 3


    STATS OF IMRAN KHAN BY S.RAJESH OF CRICINFO.

    Top bowlers in the world between 1980 and 1988 (Qual: 150 wickets) Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
    Imran Khan 48 236 17.77 43.6 18/ 5
    Richard Hadlee 51 284 19.03 47.0 28/ 7
    Malcolm Marshall 58 297 20.20 44.7 18/ 3
    Joel Garner 49 210 20.62 51.8 7/ 0
    Michael Holding 45 184 23.38 50.3 9/ 1
    Dennis Lillee 35 171 24.07 52.3 11/ 3


    Top allrounders between 1980 and 1988 (Qual: 1500 runs, 100 wickets) Player Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s Wickets Average 5WI/ 10WM Diff in ave
    Imran Khan 48 2028 39.76 4/ 10 236 17.77 18/ 5 21.99
    Richard Hadlee 51 1987 31.04 2/ 10 284 19.03 28/ 7 12.01
    Ian Botham 72 3989 34.38 10/ 19 255 31.83 15/ 2 2.55
    Kapil Dev 72 3103 31.98 5/ 16 242 30.05 14/ 2 1.93

  2. #2
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    In before we get an essay from @Mamoon claiming Malcolm Marshall as the greater cricketer and how Imran Khan is overrated.

  3. #3
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    Imran.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    In before we get an essay from @Mamoon claiming Malcolm Marshall as the greater cricketer and how Imran Khan is overrated.
    He took wickets because pakistan had no other good fast bowler @Mamoon logic,t/hat ends the story

  5. #5
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    there is doubt rofl?

    imran khan greatest player ever in my opinion. kalis is a close second. Maybe I am missing a few like some west indian greats but competition was weaker back then.

  6. #6
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    I donít need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isnít even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I wonít factor Imranís massively overrated batting because I donít think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isn’t even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I won’t factor Imran’s massively overrated batting because I don’t think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    i have seen saddists and i have seen pessamists but you poor soul are at next level.

    well have seen some of ur kind who spit garbage on the internet but then just go the opposite in public to save urself from humiliation... poor u .. get some painkillers...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rellu_Katta View Post
    i have seen saddists and i have seen pessamists but you poor soul are at next level.

    well have seen some of ur kind who spit garbage on the internet but then just go the opposite in public to save urself from humiliation... poor u .. get some painkillers...
    Lamo perfect reply.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isn’t even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I won’t factor Imran’s massively overrated batting because I don’t think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    He's comfortably the best Asian player ever. Can't be kapil, gavaskar, tendulkar,,dravid, sewag etc can it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isn’t even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I won’t factor Imran’s massively overrated batting because I don’t think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    The best captain I've personally seen is Nasser Hussain.

    I don't know if you're aware but Dickie Bird (the ATG umpire) not only named Imran Khan in his World XI but also as his captain, so it shows the "cult" hold a fair claim.

    I don't think Imran Khan was the greatest captain but he is certainly Pakistan's best, which in itself is an achievement for a side that has always had an issue of grouping and all sorts of other drama.

    You make valid points about him as a politician but you lose credibility in his discussing his accomplishments as a cricketer when you brought up: "the worst that happened to Pakistan was winning the World Cup".

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    If your talking about overall then it's Imran as he was an allrounder. But if you are talking about bowling then the comparison is quite close. While Imran might have been better during his peak, Marshall had a better overall career. Imran might have been better if he didn't miss out on almost 2 years of his peak.

    There was an article on cricinfo which showed the top fast bowlers of each decade. Imran and Marshall were well ahead of everyone in the 80s. Marshall had more wicket but Imran had the best Average of 80s bowlers. There lies your answer, Imran really missed out in those 2 years and it really effected the amount of wickets he took, if he didn't get injured he would have been in the top 3 fast bowlers of all time and there wouldn't have been any argument about it.

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    Over their careers Marshall was better. IK was also a great bowler and lost nearly 3 years at his peak due to a shin injury when he was seriously quick and swung the ball prodigiously . Overall Marshall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    If your talking about overall then it's Imran as he was an allrounder. But if you are talking about bowling then the comparison is quite close. While Imran might have been better during his peak, Marshall had a better overall career. Imran might have been better if he didn't miss out on almost 2 years of his peak.

    There was an article on cricinfo which showed the top fast bowlers of each decade. Imran and Marshall were well ahead of everyone in the 80s. Marshall had more wicket but Imran had the best Average of 80s bowlers. There lies your answer, Imran really missed out in those 2 years and it really effected the amount of wickets he took, if he didn't get injured he would have been in the top 3 fast bowlers of all time and there wouldn't have been any argument about it.
    What about Richard Hadlee?Morally the best considering he singly carried the brunt of a pace attack averaging around 19 with more scalps than Imran or Marshall?Do see records from 1980-88 .Arguably Imran's average benefited with his break otherwise he may have got worn out bowling in places like Australia in 1983-84 and India earlier.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Over their careers Marshall was better. IK was also a great bowler and lost nearly 3 years at his peak due to a shin injury when he was seriously quick and swung the ball prodigiously . Overall Marshall.
    Hadlee had 330 scalps in 60 tests at 47.4 strike rate-remarkable considering he solely carried the attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    What about Richard Hadlee?Morally the best considering he singly carried the brunt of a pace attack averaging around 19 with more scalps than Imran or Marshall?Do see records from 1980-88 .Arguably Imran's average benefited with his break otherwise he may have got worn out bowling in places like Australia in 1983-84 and India earlier.
    I don't think his average would have taken a hit. He only got injured due to be worn out. Hadlee and Imran had the same bowling average, but Imran's batting average was 10 better. Hadlee averaged 22 with ball and 27 with bat.

    Imran got injured during his peak. Imran is also great because he performed in all conditions. So the tours of India and Australia wouldn't have made a difference. He performed brilliantly in Asia, his bowling average was something like 21 or 22 in Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Hadlee had 330 scalps in 60 tests at 47.4 strike rate-remarkable considering he solely carried the attack.
    No he had 431 scapls in 86 tests at 22.29 average and 50.8 strike rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I donít need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isnít even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I wonít factor Imranís massively overrated batting because I donít think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    How in your little diloussnal bubble was marshall BY FAR A GREATER bowler than imran

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Over their careers Marshall was better. IK was also a great bowler and lost nearly 3 years at his peak due to a shin injury when he was seriously quick and swung the ball prodigiously . Overall Marshall.
    As far as the greater cricketer then no doubt imran, a better bat, fantastic leader, as for bowling marshall does edge it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Hadlee had 330 scalps in 60 tests at 47.4 strike rate-remarkable considering he solely carried the attack.
    Out of the All rounders Hadlee was the best bowler along with IK, Botham was the best bat. Botham after 81 was just overweight and lost his sharpness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isn’t even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I won’t factor Imran’s massively overrated batting because I don’t think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    Another bitter pointless post about 2 players you never saw. IK was an amazing captain, one of the best ever, and if hadnt been for dodgy umpiring PK would have overturned the Windies in 88 in the Windies when Marshall was at his peak. Marshall was the better bowler but the difference was marginal, so keep your pathetic bitter posts out of areas that you have no idea about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    No he had 431 scapls in 86 tests at 22.29 average and 50.8 strike rate.
    Those stats referring to peak period Sir.Do you not feel Hadlee statistically was better than Imran?5 wickets per test with 36 -5 wkt.hauls?That too single-handedly spearheading bowling attack.330 wickets in 60 tests from 1978-88 which is remrkable .Agree even with comparison to Imran and Marshall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Out of the All rounders Hadlee was the best bowler along with IK, Botham was the best bat. Botham after 81 was just overweight and lost his sharpness.
    Hadlee better as a bowler than Imran in your view?Read my previous comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Those stats referring to peak period Sir.Do you not feel Hadlee statistically was better than Imran?5 wickets per test with 36 -5 wkt.hauls?That too single-handedly spearheading bowling attack.330 wickets in 60 tests from 1978-88 which is remrkable .Agree even with comparison to Imran and Marshall?
    He was great too and it's amazing that he single handedly carried the NZ attack. He has amazing stats around the world, apart from in Pakistan where he averaged 44. Him and Imran have identical bowling stats, but Imran edges him due to his batting and leadership. If your talking about bowling only, then Hadlee was more consistent throughout his career, where as Imran had probably the most amazing peak in cricket history where he averaged less than 16 for 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Hadlee better as a bowler than Imran in your view?Read my previous comments.
    Yes and No- Hadlee was def the better in seaming conditions- i saw Hadlee for the 1st time in 83, and he was good, by 86 he was a beast on wickets that had little bit of grass. IK was the better bowler in PK conditions as you would expect as he was quicker and did well in England in 82 and 87. Overall it was a much of muchness- in my opinion Hadlee was just slightly the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isn’t even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I won’t factor Imran’s massively overrated batting because I don’t think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    You should just try to start using logic.

    According to what you have just written :
    - Rahane being a better batsman than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Rahane to ad Stokes bowling.

    - Broad being a better bowler than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Broad to ad Stokes batting.

    Just want to say Bravo to you, you have reached new levels of trolling and not understanding the game of cricket at least when it talks about Pakistan or India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobashir View Post
    You should just try to start using logic.

    According to what you have just written :
    - Rahane being a better batsman than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Rahane to ad Stokes bowling.

    - Broad being a better bowler than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Broad to ad Stokes batting.

    Just want to say Bravo to you, you have reached new levels of trolling and not understanding the game of cricket at least when it talks about Pakistan or India.
    Yeah. Imran managed to be a great bowler as well as a good batsman. That makes him a great. Marshall might be a better bowler (by a small margin) but he only had to concentrate on bowling. Imran had to work on his batting, bowling and captaincy. Not many people have it in them to do that and be under that much pressure to perform. And that is shown in his life as well.

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    In my biased opinion it has to be IK. Only one who stood toe to toe against the greatest team of all times (WIs of 80s).

    PS: Is there a way to get complete footage of Pak vs WI in 80s test series. I am willing to pay my hard earned Euros.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 16th October 2019 at 00:50.

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    As you stated in the thread greatest cricketer overall so it's Imran for me.

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    By the end of his career Imran was a solid bat through sheer hard work. Didnt have the natural talent of say a Kapil Dev or a Botham but he ended up with a higher average than both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    In my biased opinion it has to be IK. Only one who stood toe to toe against the greatest team of all times (WIs of 80s).

    PS: Is there a way to get complete footage of Pak vs WI in 80s test series. I am willing to pay my hard earned Euros.
    Sadly it was before the time of Satellite TV. It was such a shame- i remember listening to Radio PK on Short Wave radio and although you could barely make out the score most of the time with the poor reception, it will forever live in the memory.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 16th October 2019 at 00:51.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Over their careers Marshall was better. IK was also a great bowler and lost nearly 3 years at his peak due to a shin injury when he was seriously quick and swung the ball prodigiously . Overall Marshall.
    Marshall also lost a couple of years to low back pain.

    Marshall was the best quicker I ever saw but Imran was easily 95% as good with the ball and a test class batter as well. Marshall was the better catcher. He never got the chance to skipper WI sadly, but everyone said he was highly intelligent and astute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Marshall also lost a couple of years to low back pain.

    Marshall was the best quicker I ever saw but Imran was easily 95% as good with the ball and a test class batter as well. Marshall was the better catcher. He never got the chance to skipper WI sadly, but everyone said he was highly intelligent and astute.
    Overall Marshall better?

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    Please come here @MMHS @Ab Fan @Junaids @bilal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Overall Marshall better?
    No, as I said Imran was good enough to bat at #6 in tests who could grind out centuries under pressure and rescue and innings while Marshall was more of a #8 who would get quick fifties just to tap the nail home after Gordon, Viv, Paddington etc. had whacked it with sledgehammers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khan12 View Post
    He's comfortably the best Asian player ever. Can't be kapil, gavaskar, tendulkar,,dravid, sewag etc can it.
    I disagree.

    I think Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Kohli and Wasim are/were better players. I also think Ganguly, Dhoni, Kohli and Miandad are/were better captains.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    The best captain I've personally seen is Nasser Hussain.

    I don't know if you're aware but Dickie Bird (the ATG umpire) not only named Imran Khan in his World XI but also as his captain, so it shows the "cult" hold a fair claim.

    I don't think Imran Khan was the greatest captain but he is certainly Pakistan's best, which in itself is an achievement for a side that has always had an issue of grouping and all sorts of other drama.

    You make valid points about him as a politician but you lose credibility in his discussing his accomplishments as a cricketer when you brought up: "the worst that happened to Pakistan was winning the World Cup".
    I know who Dickie Bird is and I respect his opinion. Similarly, I also respect the various former cricket legends who have made a bigger impact on the game than Dickie Bird and they havenít put Imran in their all-time XIs. They had their reasons and I am sure so did Dickie Bird. I completely agree that he is Pakistanís greatest captain, I have never disputed that.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manunited18 View Post
    How in your little diloussnal bubble was marshall BY FAR A GREATER bowler than imran
    Marshall has a legitimate claim of being the greatest fast bowler in history. Imran doesnít.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Another bitter pointless post about 2 players you never saw. IK was an amazing captain, one of the best ever, and if hadnt been for dodgy umpiring PK would have overturned the Windies in 88 in the Windies when Marshall was at his peak. Marshall was the better bowler but the difference was marginal, so keep your pathetic bitter posts out of areas that you have no idea about.
    Oh no, please not the ďyou didnít watch a player so hushĒ straw man argument that is always used conveniently. We donít live in the age of ignorance - there is enough information and wealth of knowledge available for people to form educated, informed opinions.

    Besides, watching someone play does not necessarily give credibility to your viewpoints (I am speaking in general and not talking about you specifically). For example, half of this forum is incredibly deluded over the credentials of this current Pakistan team even though they watch every match in every format.

    Imran was a great captain and certainly Pakistanís finest, but ultimately, 14 Tests wins are absolutely nothing - not to forget the loss in Sri Lanka which was the highlight of a minnow nation in the 1980s. Losing with that Pakistan team to that Sri Lankan team in 1984 is equivalent to Kohliís India losing a Test in Afghanistan. What would that do to his legacy as captain?

    Imran was lucky that loss came in the pre-social media age. He would have been grilled to this day. Cricket fans are far less forgiving today than they were back in the 80s and 70s when information and analysis were not readily available and accessible.

    Imran worshippers defend his 14 wins tally by stating that it was in an era where wins were hard to achieve and most matches ended in draws. However, they then fail to explain why Miandad won the exact same number of matches in the same era in 14 less matches.

    Furthermore, please donít play the dodgy home umpiring card. Pakistan itself benefited immensely from dodgy home umpiring just like every other side. Eventually these things even out.

    Pakistan may have been cheated out of a series win in the West Indies because of biased umpiring, but they also returned the favor with interest at home, which means Imran Khanís Mickey Mouse tally of 14 Test could even come down to 10-11 with neutral umpires.

    To his credit, he did advocate strongly for neutral umpires even though Pakistan was a beneficiary.

    All in all, Imran is undoubtedly Pakistanís finest Test captain. However, his legacy has been comfortably surpassed by several other captains around the world. To say that he is the finest captain of all time is certainly overstating and over-selling his contribution, but there is no doubt over his legacy as captain within Pakistan.

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    And list of essays starts...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Oh no, please not the “you didn’t watch a player so hush” straw man argument that is always used conveniently. We don’t live in the age of ignorance - there is enough information and wealth of knowledge available for people to form educated, informed opinions.

    Besides, watching someone play does not necessarily give credibility to your viewpoints (I am speaking in general and not talking about you specifically). For example, half of this forum is incredibly deluded over the credentials of this current Pakistan team even though they watch every match in every format.

    Imran was a great captain and certainly Pakistan’s finest, but ultimately, 14 Tests wins are absolutely nothing - not to forget the loss in Sri Lanka which was the highlight of a minnow nation in the 1980s. Losing with that Pakistan team to that Sri Lankan team in 1984 is equivalent to Kohli’s India losing a Test in Afghanistan. What would that do to his legacy as captain?

    Imran was lucky that loss came in the pre-social media age. He would have been grilled to this day. Cricket fans are far less forgiving today than they were back in the 80s and 70s when information and analysis were not readily available and accessible.

    Imran worshippers defend his 14 wins tally by stating that it was in an era where wins were hard to achieve and most matches ended in draws. However, they then fail to explain why Miandad won the exact same number of matches in the same era in 14 less matches.

    Furthermore, please don’t play the dodgy home umpiring card. Pakistan itself benefited immensely from dodgy home umpiring just like every other side. Eventually these things even out.

    Pakistan may have been cheated out of a series win in the West Indies because of biased umpiring, but they also returned the favor with interest at home, which means Imran Khan’s Mickey Mouse tally of 14 Test could even come down to 10-11 with neutral umpires.

    To his credit, he did advocate strongly for neutral umpires even though Pakistan was a beneficiary.

    All in all, Imran is undoubtedly Pakistan’s finest Test captain. However, his legacy has been comfortably surpassed by several other captains around the world. To say that he is the finest captain of all time is certainly overstating and over-selling his contribution, but there is no doubt over his legacy as captain within Pakistan.
    At least he can be in top 10 captains ever.But I think your political views about him is going to affect you here.He was 3 in one I will say 4 in one if you consider that selector role as well.


  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobashir View Post
    You should just try to start using logic.

    According to what you have just written :
    - Rahane being a better batsman than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Rahane to ad Stokes bowling.

    - Broad being a better bowler than Stokes makes him a better player than Stokes as it would be unfair to Broad to ad Stokes batting.

    Just want to say Bravo to you, you have reached new levels of trolling and not understanding the game of cricket at least when it talks about Pakistan or India.
    Stokes vs Rahane is a poor example. Rahane is a decent batsman while Stokes is a tremendous all-rounder. If you compare a decent batsman/bowler to a great all-rounder/bowler/batsman, the great (whether he is an all-rounder, batsman or bowler) will obviously win.

    Stokes vs Broad is a good example. Broad will probably end up with 600 odd Test wickets. Yes his average is on the higher side, but we will have a special place in history of the game because it is a monumental achievement. Would it be fair to Broad to consider Stokes a better player because he is a 2 in 1 player? No it won’t be, because you cannot discount 600 Test wickets just because he cannot bat like an all-rounder.

    Forget Imran before you accuse me of bias. Let’s consider Viv and Kallis. While Viv could bowl, he cannot be considered a proper all-rounder. On the other hand, Kallis is considered as one of the greatest all-rounders of all time. Would it be fair to Viv if people consider Kallis a better player because he was an excellent batsman and a good bowler?

    To make a case for why Kallis was better than Viv, you have to prove it by comparing Kallis’ stronger suit (batting) and Viv’s speciality. Similarly, if you are comparing a bowling all-rounder like Richard Hadlee to Viv, you have to consider Hadlee’s bowling and Viv’s batting.

    When it comes to Imran vs Marshall, you have to consider Imran’s bowling (strong suit) and Marshall’s speciality (bowling) because the latter was not all-rounder.

    An all-rounder’s all round skills should only be considered when he is being compared to another all-rounder. If you are going to compare Imran to Botham, then you have to obviously factor in both batting and bowling. If not, then it is simply an apple-oranges comparison and every good all-rounder will be come out on top against every great specialist player.

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    Most of our fans simply donít have the capacity to have an objective discussion and debate over Imranís cricketing career and legacy. He is almost like a divine figure for the masses and above human fault and weakness, which is every failure/shortcoming of his is excused and every success of his is magnified and glorified.

    Our fans are the least credibility authority when it comes to discussing the cricket career of Imran.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRsohail View Post
    At least he can be in top 10 captains ever.But I think your political views about him is going to affect you here.He was 3 in one I will say 4 in one if you consider that selector role as well.
    He was also the PCB Chairman at the time. He once refused to play against Australia in Pakistan because the weather was too hot for him and Miandad had to lead the team instead. Only Imran could have pulled off a stunt like that and get away with it.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Oh no, please not the ďyou didnít watch a player so hushĒ straw man argument that is always used conveniently. We donít live in the age of ignorance - there is enough information and wealth of knowledge available for people to form educated, informed opinions.

    Besides, watching someone play does not necessarily give credibility to your viewpoints (I am speaking in general and not talking about you specifically). For example, half of this forum is incredibly deluded over the credentials of this current Pakistan team even though they watch every match in every format.

    Imran was a great captain and certainly Pakistanís finest, but ultimately, 14 Tests wins are absolutely nothing - not to forget the loss in Sri Lanka which was the highlight of a minnow nation in the 1980s. Losing with that Pakistan team to that Sri Lankan team in 1984 is equivalent to Kohliís India losing a Test in Afghanistan. What would that do to his legacy as captain?

    Imran was lucky that loss came in the pre-social media age. He would have been grilled to this day. Cricket fans are far less forgiving today than they were back in the 80s and 70s when information and analysis were not readily available and accessible.

    Imran worshippers defend his 14 wins tally by stating that it was in an era where wins were hard to achieve and most matches ended in draws. However, they then fail to explain why Miandad won the exact same number of matches in the same era in 14 less matches.

    Furthermore, please donít play the dodgy home umpiring card. Pakistan itself benefited immensely from dodgy home umpiring just like every other side. Eventually these things even out.

    Pakistan may have been cheated out of a series win in the West Indies because of biased umpiring, but they also returned the favor with interest at home, which means Imran Khanís Mickey Mouse tally of 14 Test could even come down to 10-11 with neutral umpires.

    To his credit, he did advocate strongly for neutral umpires even though Pakistan was a beneficiary.

    All in all, Imran is undoubtedly Pakistanís finest Test captain. However, his legacy has been comfortably surpassed by several other captains around the world. To say that he is the finest captain of all time is certainly overstating and over-selling his contribution, but there is no doubt over his legacy as captain within Pakistan.
    Your knowledge of cricket is on par with knowledge of anything else you talk about- half baked and ignorant. But you are a bitter troll who gets humiliated by posters on a daily basis. IK was a brilliant captain, one of the best of his generation and for you talk about just the 14 wins without any context or understanding of how test cricket was played shows ignorance of the highest order but who expected any different. Under his Captaincy PK beat Ind at away for the 1st time in their history( that must really hurt you) and smashed them at home, beat England at home in 87, and narrowly lost a series in 82( David Constant saw that we didnt), Lost a series to Aus in Australia in 83-84 when he, the best fast bowler in the world at the time didnt bowl in the series and even bitter loser like you already knows that IK never lost a series to the Windies in the 80`s as Captain, when they were quite literally unbeatable. The Kaptaan is without doubt the best captain from the SC and his feats will be remembered forever by people knowledge and understanding- neither qualities you have or will ever have.
    Last edited by Bewal Express; 16th October 2019 at 03:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Most of our fans simply don’t have the capacity to have an objective discussion and debate over Imran’s cricketing career and legacy. He is almost like a divine figure for the masses and above human fault and weakness, which is every failure/shortcoming of his is excused and every success of his is magnified and glorified.

    Our fans are the least credibility authority when it comes to discussing the cricket career of Imran.
    I think as always you are making a fool of yourself- Context is the word that you are missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRsohail View Post
    At least he can be in top 10 captains ever.But I think your political views about him is going to affect you here.He was 3 in one I will say 4 in one if you consider that selector role as well.
    The guy thinks he knows cricket, he has no idea, just a bitter troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Your knowledge of cricket is on par with knowledge of anything else you talk about- half baked and ignorant. But you are a bitter troll who gets humiliated by posters on a daily basis. IK was a brilliant captain, one of the best of his generation and for you talk about just the 14 wins without any context or understanding of how test cricket was played shows ignorance of the highest order but who expected any different. Under his Captaincy PK beat Ind at away for the 1st time in their history( that must really hurt you) and smashed them at home, beat England at home in 87, and narrowly lost a series in 82( David Constant saw that we didnt), Lost a series to Aus in Australia in 83-84 when he, the best fast bowler in the world at the time didnt bowl in the series and even bitter loser like you already knows that IK never lost a series to the Windies in the 80`s as Captain, when they were quite literally unbeatable. The Kaptaan is without doubt the best captain from the SC and his feats will be remembered forever by people knowledge and understanding- neither qualities you have or will ever have.
    Predictable.

    A wall of incoherent text supplemented with veiled personal attacks and textbook logical fallacies.

    Please provide the context of why Miandad managed to win the same number of matches in 14 less Tests in the same era, why Pakistan should be pitied for being cheated out in West Indies when they themselves benefited from home umpiring, why Imran losing a Test to a minnow like Sri Lanka was justified and what a modern captain has to do to surpass his legacy as captain. I await your response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Predictable.

    A wall of incoherent text supplemented with veiled personal attacks and textbook logical fallacies.

    Please provide the context of why Miandad managed to win the same number of matches in 14 less Tests in the same era, why Pakistan should be pitied for being cheated out in West Indies when they themselves benefited from home umpiring, why Imran losing a Test to a minnow like Sri Lanka was justified and what a modern captain has to do to surpass his legacy as captain. I await your response.
    So lets look behind the stats-Can you post who Miandad won against? Mindad won one series that was of significance and that was in England in 92, can you tell me of any series wins or draws against the Windies? Go back to cric info and have a quick look( lol), wins against both Eng (87) and Aus(88) at home (both were to put in mildly highly controversial, Shakoor Rana etc).
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 16th October 2019 at 07:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I disagree.

    I think Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Kohli and Wasim are/were better players. I also think Ganguly, Dhoni, Kohli and Miandad are/were better captains.
    imran khan is the GOAT Asian player. Definitely not tendulkar or kohli. I would say wasim is the greatest asian bowler of all time as well unless bumrah can maintain his current form for another 7-9 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Stokes vs Rahane is a poor example. Rahane is a decent batsman while Stokes is a tremendous all-rounder. If you compare a decent batsman/bowler to a great all-rounder/bowler/batsman, the great (whether he is an all-rounder, batsman or bowler) will obviously win.

    Stokes vs Broad is a good example. Broad will probably end up with 600 odd Test wickets. Yes his average is on the higher side, but we will have a special place in history of the game because it is a monumental achievement. Would it be fair to Broad to consider Stokes a better player because he is a 2 in 1 player? No it won’t be, because you cannot discount 600 Test wickets just because he cannot bat like an all-rounder.

    Forget Imran before you accuse me of bias. Let’s consider Viv and Kallis. While Viv could bowl, he cannot be considered a proper all-rounder. On the other hand, Kallis is considered as one of the greatest all-rounders of all time. Would it be fair to Viv if people consider Kallis a better player because he was an excellent batsman and a good bowler?

    To make a case for why Kallis was better than Viv, you have to prove it by comparing Kallis’ stronger suit (batting) and Viv’s speciality. Similarly, if you are comparing a bowling all-rounder like Richard Hadlee to Viv, you have to consider Hadlee’s bowling and Viv’s batting.

    When it comes to Imran vs Marshall, you have to consider Imran’s bowling (strong suit) and Marshall’s speciality (bowling) because the latter was not all-rounder.

    An all-rounder’s all round skills should only be considered when he is being compared to another all-rounder. If you are going to compare Imran to Botham, then you have to obviously factor in both batting and bowling. If not, then it is simply an apple-oranges comparison and every good all-rounder will be come out on top against every great specialist player.
    The thread title says: WHO WAS THE GREATER CRICKETER OVERALL IMRAN KHAN OR MALCOLM MARSHALL?

    It doesn''t say bowler. Imran is the greater cricketer and Marshall the better bowler. As simple as that. Not sure why this is even an argument.

    As far as greatest Asian cricketer goes, Imran takes it by a long way. His bowling is considered one of the best of all time and he was the top or 2nd best bowler of the 80s. His batting average was also better than half the current England sides average. He would have walked into any playing XI

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    Easily Imran Khan was the better Cricketer. It's not even a question.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Ik is arguably third greatest cricketer ever..

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    Imran Khan was the better cricketer due to being an ATG bowler and a good batsman. Marshall isn't that much ahead of him in bowling to supersede Imran's batting stats.

    However, if I had to choose an ATG XI then I would pick Marshall over Imran, due to Marshall being a tier above as a specialist bowler.

    As far as cricketing achievement goes, Imran is easily possibly one of the top 5 cricketers of all time, arguably ahead of Tendulkar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Please come here @MMHS @Ab Fan @Junaids @bilal
    Imran, not even a contest. But, both will make my all-time XI.

    Marshall is the best fast bowler game has ever seen, but at his pick Imran wasn't far behind - I would rather say, for their respective top 3-4 years, Imran was probably more menacing than MDM. Imran played as an all-rounder and Captain for a good part of his last few years, which cost his bowling stats, while Marshall being the specialist bowler (he was one of the best ever No. 8 with though), left the International game at the first sight of decline, still Imran's bowling stats are too close.

    One of Imran biggest achievement was that, between 1978 to 1989, he was by far the most popular and admired cricketer in India and even in Australia - even people like Ian Chappel mentioned 3 cricketers together almost always - Imran, Viv & DK Lillee.

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    Imran is considered the 2nd best allrounder of all time, behind only Sir Gary Sobers. Imran is the greatest bowling all rounder of all time and probably top 5 test fast bowlers of all time. I would rank him in the top 5 cricketers of all time, as would many.

    Even Donald Trump said he is the greatest cricketer of all time and @Mamoon thinks he knows better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I donít need to write an essay because I can make my point brief here. Imran is an all-time great player but yes he is overrated by his cult who consider him the greatest cricketer of all time as well as the greatest captain of all time.

    He clearly isnít even the best captain and player from Asia, let alone overall. He status has been elevated by his propaganda and unparalleled narcissism.

    As far as the comparison with Marshall is concerned, I think it is very tough. While Marshall was by and far the better bowler, Imran success as captain - albeit only 14 Test wins as well as a loss in Sri Lanka who were minnows in the 80s - means there is very little to choose between the two.

    I wonít factor Imranís massively overrated batting because I donít think it is fair to compare a specialist bowler/batsman with an all-rounder.

    If you use this logic, every great batsman or bowler will struggle to win in a comparison with a great all-rounder, and the list of greatest cricketers of all time will be filled with all-rounders.
    Along with Sachin Tendulkar, Imran Khan is the greatest cricketer from Asia. No one even comes close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    So lets look behind the stats-Can you post who Miandad won against? Mindad won one series that was of significance and that was in England in 92, can you tell me of any series wins or draws against the Windies? Go back to cric info and have a quick look( lol), wins against both Eng (87) and Aus(88) at home (both were to put in mildly highly controversial, Shakoor Rana etc).
    Please don’t tell me what to do because you are the self-appointed expert here, so I am relying on your expertise. You have failed to answer my questions so I will ask them again:

    What is the context that allowed Miandad to rack up as many wins as Imran in the same while captaining in 14 less Tests? You seem dismissive of his achievements because he supposedly beat weaker teams, but then how do you explain Imran leading Pakistan to a loss in Sri Lanka in 1986?

    Was that Sri Lankan side stronger than any of the weak teams that Miandad supposedly beat to boost his captaincy record?

    Please don’t blame the dodgy Sri Lankan umpires again. Every country benefited from biased home umpiring including Pakistan. Do you think a captain like Kohli, who is accumulating wins at a breathtaking rate, would be able to get away with losing a Test in Afghanistan for example?

    People are not ready to forgive him for losing in South Africa and England, but somehow, we have to forget and ignore that Imran led Pakistan to a loss in Sri Lanka in 1986, a team that only won 2 Tests throughout the 1980s.

    Furthermore, what does a modern captain have to do to surpass Imran Khan as a Test captain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Along with Sachin Tendulkar, Imran Khan is the greatest cricketer from Asia. No one even comes close.

    I wouldn’t say so.

    Gavaskar is pretty much universally regarded as the GOAT Test opener, Wasim is arguably the most complete pacer of all time after McGrath, Kohli is only 30 but he already has an immense legacy as a batsman and Test captain (already 6th in terms of most wins), and Muralitharan is probably the biggest match-winner in Test cricket history.

    All these players have a very strong claim of being better than Imran, so I don’t think it is fair to say that apart from Tendulkar, no one comes close to Imran as far as Asian cricketers are concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    The thread title says: WHO WAS THE GREATER CRICKETER OVERALL IMRAN KHAN OR MALCOLM MARSHALL?

    It doesn''t say bowler. Imran is the greater cricketer and Marshall the better bowler. As simple as that. Not sure why this is even an argument.

    As far as greatest Asian cricketer goes, Imran takes it by a long way. His bowling is considered one of the best of all time and he was the top or 2nd best bowler of the 80s. His batting average was also better than half the current England sides average. He would have walked into any playing XI
    It doesn’t work that way. If you are comparing an all-rounder to a specialist, you have to compare their strong suits because otherwise it is an apple-oranges comparison and leads to faulty conclusions. Forget Imran and Marshall - let’s take the examples of Afridi and Inzamam.

    If we go by this “cricketer” logic, it won’t be wrong to conclude that Afridi was a better cricketer than Muralitharan, since Afridi could also bat and was better in the field. However, it is obviously a completely stupid conclusion because Afridi is not even in the same ballpark.


    If we give extra points to all-rounders than almost every all-rounder will come out on top in a comparison with a specialist cricketer. You can make Afridi look better than Muralitharan, Inzamam, Dravid, Kohli, Miandad etc. based on the “cricketer” logic.

    To compare any two great players, it is important to compare their strong suits for a fair and objective comparison. To compare Imran to Marshall, the only point of comparison is their respective bowling.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danyaalr01 View Post
    Imran is considered the 2nd best allrounder of all time, behind only Sir Gary Sobers. Imran is the greatest bowling all rounder of all time and probably top 5 test fast bowlers of all time. I would rank him in the top 5 cricketers of all time, as would many.

    Even Donald Trump said he is the greatest cricketer of all time and @Mamoon thinks he knows better.
    Donald Trump also thinks Climate change is a myth. Furthermore, David Gower put Imran 11th in the list of his all time greatest cricketers. I am quite surprised that he knows less cricket than Trump, who probably thinks cricket is just the name of an insect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Please don’t tell me what to do because you are the self-appointed expert here, so I am relying on your expertise. You have failed to answer my questions so I will ask them again:

    What is the context that allowed Miandad to rack up as many wins as Imran in the same while captaining in 14 less Tests? You seem dismissive of his achievements because he supposedly beat weaker teams, but then how do you explain Imran leading Pakistan to a loss in Sri Lanka in 1986?

    Was that Sri Lankan side stronger than any of the weak teams that Miandad supposedly beat to boost his captaincy record?

    Please don’t blame the dodgy Sri Lankan umpires again. Every country benefited from biased home umpiring including Pakistan. Do you think a captain like Kohli, who is accumulating wins at a breathtaking rate, would be able to get away with losing a Test in Afghanistan for example?

    People are not ready to forgive him for losing in South Africa and England, but somehow, we have to forget and ignore that Imran led Pakistan to a loss in Sri Lanka in 1986, a team that only won 2 Tests throughout the 1980s.

    Furthermore, what does a modern captain have to do to surpass Imran Khan as a Test captain?
    I told you but obviously your brain is fuddled after getting owned for trying to score political points over cricketing argument. Miandad was a decent Captain- good tactically but couldnt manage people and his record shows that bar beating England in 92, he had nothing to offer. Once again stop running and tell me those great victories under Miandad, IK will the remain the best captain the SC has ever produced, and you picking a loss TO SL as the sole basis of your pathetic argument is not helping you.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    I told you but obviously your brain is fuddled after getting owned for trying to score political points over cricketing argument. Miandad was a decent Captain- good tactically but couldnt manage people and his record shows that bar beating England in 92, he had nothing to offer. Once again stop running and tell me those great victories under Miandad, IK will the remain the best captain the SC has ever produced, and you picking a loss TO SL as the sole basis of your pathetic argument is not helping you.
    You continue to fail to answer my questions with flying colors. I understand you are incapable and are slave to your devotion to Imran, but perhaps I will push you one final time.

    You are accusing Miandad for raking up cheap wins against weak opposition and how he didn’t manage to win against the major teams. However, how would you explain Imran Khan losing a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986? Were any of the teams that Miandad defeated weaker than Sri Lanka of 1986? Please explain how the greatest captain in the history of subcontinent managed to lose a Test match to a minnow?

    Furthermore, do you think someone like Kohli can get away with losing a Test match to a minnow in today’s times? There would be a dozen threads on PP calling him an overrated captain. People are calling him overrated because he lost in South Africa and England, but Imran is not overrated because he lost in Sri Lanka in 1986?

    And finally, what does a modern captain have to do to overtake the man with a grand total of 14 Test wins including a defeat to a minnow?

    I fully expect you to side-step my questions again and make sweeping statements about my so-called bias against him.

    The only one running here is you and I think you can break Usain Bolt’s records at this rate.

    As I have said before, Pakistanis fans are not capable of discussing Imran’s cricket career and legacy in an objective manner. They cannot digest scrutiny and any form of constructive criticism. They will be only satisfied if you stand in line like sheep and call Imran the greatest captain in history even though facts do not back that claim.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You continue to fail to answer my questions with flying colors. I understand you are incapable and are slave to your devotion to Imran, but perhaps I will push you one final time.

    You are accusing Miandad for raking up cheap wins against weak opposition and how he didn’t manage to win against the major teams. However, how would you explain Imran Khan losing a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986? Were any of the teams that Miandad defeated weaker than Sri Lanka of 1986? Please explain how the greatest captain in the history of subcontinent managed to lose a Test match to a minnow?

    Furthermore, do you think someone like Kohli can get away with losing a Test match to a minnow in today’s times? There would be a dozen threads on PP calling him an overrated captain. People are calling him overrated because he lost in South Africa and England, but Imran is not overrated because he lost in Sri Lanka in 1986?

    And finally, what does a modern captain have to do to overtake the man with a grand total of 14 Test wins including a defeat to a minnow?

    I fully expect you to side-step my questions again and make sweeping statements about my so-called bias against him.

    The only one running here is you and I think you can break Usain Bolt’s records at this rate.

    As I have said before, Pakistanis fans are not capable of discussing Imran’s cricket career and legacy in an objective manner. They cannot digest scrutiny and any form of constructive criticism. They will be only satisfied if you stand in line like sheep and call Imran the greatest captain in history even though facts do not back that claim.
    So your only argument against IK`s greatness is the loss to SL! LOL. By the same token Clive Lloyd loses all his credits because he lost a series to an average NZ team. It was you that brought up the Miandads record and you couldnt give me any examples of good teams he beat as Captain bar Eng in 92, Once again not knowing context and trying to use stats out of context humiliates you. I am here, you are welcome to ask me any questions and maybe you can ask the greats of the time, and they will tell a little boy just out nappies that context is all important. IK is the best Captain PK and SC has ever produced and also one of the best of his generation. He was a brilliant fast bowler, a good batsman and the best all rounder of his generation when his bowling and batting was combined. So suck it, because i am glad each word from anyone that praises IK hurts you, and that gives me great pleasure because you turned a cricketing debate into a political one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Donald Trump also thinks Climate change is a myth. Furthermore, David Gower put Imran 11th in the list of his all time greatest cricketers. I am quite surprised that he knows less cricket than Trump, who probably thinks cricket is just the name of an insect.
    It was a joking about Trump. Obviously I might have slight bias when I say Imran was top 5, but 11th is amazing and puts him right up there with the best. He easily makes an all time test XI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It doesn’t work that way. If you are comparing an all-rounder to a specialist, you have to compare their strong suits because otherwise it is an apple-oranges comparison and leads to faulty conclusions. Forget Imran and Marshall - let’s take the examples of Afridi and Inzamam.

    If we go by this “cricketer” logic, it won’t be wrong to conclude that Afridi was a better cricketer than Muralitharan, since Afridi could also bat and was better in the field. However, it is obviously a completely stupid conclusion because Afridi is not even in the same ballpark.


    If we give extra points to all-rounders than almost every all-rounder will come out on top in a comparison with a specialist cricketer. You can make Afridi look better than Muralitharan, Inzamam, Dravid, Kohli, Miandad etc. based on the “cricketer” logic.

    To compare any two great players, it is important to compare their strong suits for a fair and objective comparison. To compare Imran to Marshall, the only point of comparison is their respective bowling.
    This is a fascinating debate.Comparing a great all-rounders with a greatspecialist is complex.Kapil Dev was a great all-rounder but still not the equal as an all-rounder as Sunil Gavaskar or maybe Javed Miandad as a batsmen.In same light Imran was not equally as impactful or better as a fast bowler or all-rounder overall as Viv Richards with the bat .Similarly although a better all-rounder Hadlee was not Lillee's equal as a cricketer .Inspite of staggering figures as an all-rounder Kalis was not the equal of a Tendulkar or Lara .Historically apart from Gary Sobers great specialists have overshadowed the allrounders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Imran Khan was the better cricketer due to being an ATG bowler and a good batsman. Marshall isn't that much ahead of him in bowling to supersede Imran's batting stats.

    However, if I had to choose an ATG XI then I would pick Marshall over Imran, due to Marshall being a tier above as a specialist bowler.

    As far as cricketing achievement goes, Imran is easily possibly one of the top 5 cricketers of all time, arguably ahead of Tendulkar.
    I do not feel he was more impactful than Viv Richards and considering tenure Sachin Tendulkar.Imran was a superstar within touching distance of the greats but not at his best with both bat and bal silmuntaneously and unlike Botham not an attacking batsmen.Still makes my top 10 edging likes of Kallis,Gilchrist and Botham because of his feats as a skipper.

    Would you rate Shane Warne ahead of Imran ?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Imran, not even a contest. But, both will make my all-time XI.

    Marshall is the best fast bowler game has ever seen, but at his pick Imran wasn't far behind - I would rather say, for their respective top 3-4 years, Imran was probably more menacing than MDM. Imran played as an all-rounder and Captain for a good part of his last few years, which cost his bowling stats, while Marshall being the specialist bowler (he was one of the best ever No. 8 with though), left the International game at the first sight of decline, still Imran's bowling stats are too close.

    One of Imran biggest achievement was that, between 1978 to 1989, he was by far the most popular and admired cricketer in India and even in Australia - even people like Ian Chappel mentioned 3 cricketers together almost always - Imran, Viv & DK Lillee.
    Good answer but do you feel Imran was as great an all-rounder as Marshall was as a fast bowler?Remember Viv Richards was better than Botham as a cricketer who did not posess Ian's all-round skill just as Gavaskar overshadowed Kapil Dev or Lillee edged Hadlee.Similarly both Tendulkar and Lara rank ahead of Kallis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    I do not feel he was more impactful than Viv Richards and considering tenure Sachin Tendulkar.Imran was a superstar within touching distance of the greats but not at his best with both bat and bal silmuntaneously and unlike Botham not an attacking batsmen.Still makes my top 10 edging likes of Kallis,Gilchrist and Botham because of his feats as a skipper.

    Would you rate Shane Warne ahead of Imran ?
    Very difficult to say. Warne is by far the greatest leg spinner of all time and revolutionized spin bowling. As a cricketer Imran was better but Warne has a bigger legacy (due to being either the greatest/second greatest spinner of all time).

    It's hard to compare ATG cricketers directly who excel in different aspects of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Another bitter pointless post about 2 players you never saw. IK was an amazing captain, one of the best ever, and if hadnt been for dodgy umpiring PK would have overturned the Windies in 88 in the Windies when Marshall was at his peak. Marshall was the better bowler but the difference was marginal, so keep your pathetic bitter posts out of areas that you have no idea about.
    You nailed it. Mamoon has never seen IK play. By his own admission, he never watched the 1992 WC as he was too young, so his opinion on Pakistan Cricket and IK was, and remains, based on highlights, thus ignorance. And to think he also voted for IK!

    I watched the two great players, and there is a different between a player and a cricketer. IK was an
    all round cricketer as well as a player, and of course master tactician and leader. So as far as the OP goes, IK was the better cricketer than Marshall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    You nailed it. Mamoon has never seen IK play. By his own admission, he never watched the 1992 WC as he was too young, so his opinion on Pakistan Cricket and IK was, and remains, based on highlights, thus ignorance. And to think he also voted for IK!

    I watched the two great players, and there is a different between a player and a cricketer. IK was an
    all round cricketer as well as a player, and of course master tactician and leader. So as far as the OP goes, IK was the better cricketer than Marshall.
    He was trying to use stats without context just in a desperate attempt to degrade Kaptaan and left with his tail between his legs. The op should have just asked for the two guys to be compared as bowlers and no doubt Marshall was slightly better, I think what swung it for me was Marshalls performance in Ind in 83, but we will never know what IK would have done in Australia in 83/84 if it hadnt been for the shin injury.

  71. #71
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    1980s

    Tests
    Marshall = 323 wickets at 19.91 average and 44.5 SR
    Imran = 256 wickets at 19.12 average and 47 SR

    ODIs
    Marshall = 135 wickets at 24.52 average and 43.5 SR
    Imran = 144 wickets at 22.95 average and 35.4 SR

    Imran was not far behind in the 80s when they were both at their peak as bowlers.

    Then, you consider Imran's batting and leadership, he easily comes out as the better cricketer.

    Let's not forget that Imran played a brilliant knock in the 1992 world cup final that helped his team lift the cup.

    He saved several test matches with his batting. Imran also played in a far weaker team. Marshall was part of a GOAT bowling attack.
    Last edited by The_Odd_One; 16th October 2019 at 23:05.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I wouldn’t say so.

    Gavaskar is pretty much universally regarded as the GOAT Test opener, Wasim is arguably the most complete pacer of all time after McGrath, Kohli is only 30 but he already has an immense legacy as a batsman and Test captain (already 6th in terms of most wins), and Muralitharan is probably the biggest match-winner in Test cricket history.

    All these players have a very strong claim of being better than Imran, so I don’t think it is fair to say that apart from Tendulkar, no one comes close to Imran as far as Asian cricketers are concerned.
    You are ignoring the fact that Imran is not far behind as a bowler. He still averaged better than Wasim in tests no matter how talented was the latter. There is very little that separates him from the likes of Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, etc. Your logic would have made more sense if Imran averaged 25+ as a bowler.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 17th October 2019 at 09:23.

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    Imran is an excellent test bowler but gets overrated by Pakistani fans.

    Wasim is the greatest bowler Pakistan have ever produced and the only one to make it to the all-time XI.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Imran is an excellent test bowler but gets overrated by Pakistani fans.

    Wasim is the greatest bowler Pakistan have ever produced and the only one to make it to the all-time XI.
    Imran was the better bowler.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    You nailed it. Mamoon has never seen IK play. By his own admission, he never watched the 1992 WC as he was too young, so his opinion on Pakistan Cricket and IK was, and remains, based on highlights, thus ignorance. And to think he also voted for IK!

    I watched the two great players, and there is a different between a player and a cricketer. IK was an
    all round cricketer as well as a player, and of course master tactician and leader. So as far as the OP goes, IK was the better cricketer than Marshall.
    I would not call him a master tactician. Miandad helped him a lot tactically. Imran had to focus on his bowling for a lot of the time on the field. His great strength was keeping his players calm on the field, and being able to identify players who were not necessarily the most talented but who were aggressive and temperamentally suited to the pressure of test cricket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Imran was the better bowler.
    Certainly in tests, Wasim underachieved massively compared to what he could have done. Still a great career

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    So your only argument against IK`s greatness is the loss to SL! LOL. By the same token Clive Lloyd loses all his credits because he lost a series to an average NZ team. It was you that brought up the Miandads record and you couldnt give me any examples of good teams he beat as Captain bar Eng in 92, Once again not knowing context and trying to use stats out of context humiliates you. I am here, you are welcome to ask me any questions and maybe you can ask the greats of the time, and they will tell a little boy just out nappies that context is all important. IK is the best Captain PK and SC has ever produced and also one of the best of his generation. He was a brilliant fast bowler, a good batsman and the best all rounder of his generation when his bowling and batting was combined. So suck it, because i am glad each word from anyone that praises IK hurts you, and that gives me great pleasure because you turned a cricketing debate into a political one.
    And once again - you have ignored the questions by resorting to personal attacks. It is abundantly clear you donít have an answer.

    Your excuse for Imran losing a Test in Sri Lanka in 1986 is because West Indies also lost a Test to NZ. How laughable is that?

    In addition, you continue to fail to justify why Miandadís clearly superior record as captain should be discredited because he beat weaker sides when Imran couldnít beat Sri Lanka himself. No wonder he stopped playing against minnows after that.

    And you also continue to ignore what a modern captain has to achieve to surpass Imran as Test captain. At least you stopped complaining about the dodgy umpiring in the West Indies, so I guess that is an improvement.

    No, Imran is NOT the greatest SC captain of all time. Sweeping statements mean nothing when they are not backed by facts.

    Kohli has surpassed him as Test captain and Dhoni has surpassed in ODIs.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    You are ignoring the fact that Imran is not far behind as a bowler. He still averaged better than Wasim in tests no matter how talented was the latter. There is very little that separates him from the likes of Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, etc. Your logic would have made more sense if Imran averaged 25+ as a bowler.
    I agree, but there is also very little that separates some of the aforementioned Asian greats and Imran.

    I have no issues if someone says that Imran is the best or second best Asian cricketer. That is a fairly credible opinion. However, to say that no one comes close to him or that he is the undisputed GOAT cricketer is very clearly overrating him.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    You nailed it. Mamoon has never seen IK play. By his own admission, he never watched the 1992 WC as he was too young, so his opinion on Pakistan Cricket and IK was, and remains, based on highlights, thus ignorance. And to think he also voted for IK!

    I watched the two great players, and there is a different between a player and a cricketer. IK was an
    all round cricketer as well as a player, and of course master tactician and leader. So as far as the OP goes, IK was the better cricketer than Marshall.
    ďMaster tacticianĒ that only won 14 Tests and lost a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986, a team that were proper minnows in the 80s and only won 2 Tests. Miandad won the same number of matches while captaining 14 matches less.

    Master tactician also couldnít reach a World Cup final until he was in his 40s and was saved by rain after his team were shot for 50 odd.

    There is no doubt that Imran was a great player, a great captain and a great leader. However, he is clearly overrated by his blind followers who do not have the capacity to distinguish between facts and romanticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    And once again - you have ignored the questions by resorting to personal attacks. It is abundantly clear you don’t have an answer.

    Your excuse for Imran losing a Test in Sri Lanka in 1986 is because West Indies also lost a Test to NZ. How laughable is that?

    In addition, you continue to fail to justify why Miandad’s clearly superior record as captain should be discredited because he beat weaker sides when Imran couldn’t beat Sri Lanka himself. No wonder he stopped playing against minnows after that.

    And you also continue to ignore what a modern captain has to achieve to surpass Imran as Test captain. At least you stopped complaining about the dodgy umpiring in the West Indies, so I guess that is an improvement.

    No, Imran is NOT the greatest SC captain of all time. Sweeping statements mean nothing when they are not backed by facts.

    Kohli has surpassed him as Test captain and Dhoni has surpassed in ODIs.
    Desperation from a guy with nothing to offer bar one defeat to SL. LOL, and the Minadad one is funny and tragic at the same time, but if you dont understand context then that is your problem not mine. You need to find something that can actually know about because its def not cricket. Go back and keep worshipping the mafia because outside that you have no intellect to understand what i said.
    As far as Kohli is concerned- didnt he get whacked by England 4-1 last year- an England team that is at best average. ouch!! and just about beat an Aussie time missing one of their best ever in Smith. Mate keep digging a hole.


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