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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    This one does not fly. Chinese have purchased and deployed s400 for their own air defence. Why would they reveal its weakness to anyone?

    Pakistan's military will lose its edges over time with increasing distance from USA/NATO. Pakistan had access to technologies India never had - AIM-120, F16s, air defence, p-8, stinger missile, cobra helicopters, sensors like night vision goggles etc - free or with cheap financing. Something Pakistan will not be able to replicate with China or Russia. Not to mention the American/NATO exclusivity of some of these tech.

    On the other hand, India has been making rapid advances in last 1-2 decades in indigenous technologies especially missile and electronic warfare. Also some of the acquisitions (s400, rafale etc) in the last few years are game changers vis-a-vis Pakistan
    If S400 was so easy to beat, US wouldn't be worried about it.

    But let people think its so easily beatable.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    If S400 was so easy to beat, US wouldn't be worried about it.

    But let people think its so easily beatable.
    Eventually, Pakistan has no option but to reconcile (settle with status quo) with India over time even with superficial Chinese backing. Till then, Pakistan military will continue to fool and milk the country by sustaining and sponsoring conflict with India through proxies.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    This one does not fly. Chinese have purchased and deployed s400 for their own air defence. Why would they reveal its weakness to anyone?

    Pakistan isnt just any ally. We have senior officers embedded in China at this very moment on rotation. We have been training against the S400 during the various shaheen excercises. I dont doubt the PAF has a strategy to counter it.

    Pakistan's military will lose its edges over time with increasing distance from USA/NATO. Pakistan had access to technologies India never had - AIM-120, F16s, air defence, p-8, stinger missile, cobra helicopters, sensors like night vision goggles etc - free or with cheap financing. Something Pakistan will not be able to replicate with China or Russia. Not to mention the American/NATO exclusivity of some of these tech.

    We regularly excercise with NATO or NATO allied forces and are regulars at excercises carried out by the largest NATO force namely Turkey. Also you mention alot of weapons there but warfare is changing now. The introduction of drones AI and sophisticated EW is changing the game. With regards to sensors, with all due respect you had all of those on feb 27th and they failed. You had isreali sensors, russian sensors, french sensors, etc etc. And you failed. Its not about the equipment itself but how its integrated and how quickly you can get what you need e.g. either shoot first if you are a fighter or detect first if you are air defence. China have mastered air defence and denial. We are also moving in that direction. Your mode of warfare is outdated if i may say so.


    On the other hand, India has been making rapid advances in last 1-2 decades in indigenous technologies especially missile and electronic warfare. Also some of the acquisitions (s400, rafale etc) in the last few years are game changers vis-a-vis Pakistan
    Again you failed when it mattered and exposed how far behind you are. Also the ISI and the Chinese have penetrated both the human elements within your armed forces and the electronic. You have a fleet of 250 SU30's that are vulnerable now, same for your Migs. Yes in an all out war your numbers will count but Armenia thought that too. In the next one you wont just be fighting on the LOC you'll be fighting on the LAC and the international border simultaneously. Your going to get a massive shock like you did on the 27th. Warfare has changed and its not about sending a tank over the border anymore. Its preventing the tank from starting, seeing and even moving. Or when it does move it cant go more than a few miles before becoming useless.

    Yes India is still a major military power but so was Iraq. I would temper things and do some major introspection.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    This one does not fly. Chinese have purchased and deployed s400 for their own air defence. Why would they reveal its weakness to anyone?

    Pakistan's military will lose its edges over time with increasing distance from USA/NATO. Pakistan had access to technologies India never had - AIM-120, F16s, air defence, p-8, stinger missile, cobra helicopters, sensors like night vision goggles etc - free or with cheap financing. Something Pakistan will not be able to replicate with China or Russia. Not to mention the American/NATO exclusivity of some of these tech.

    On the other hand, India has been making rapid advances in last 1-2 decades in indigenous technologies especially missile and electronic warfare. Also some of the acquisitions (s400, rafale etc) in the last few years are game changers vis-a-vis Pakistan
    I honestly donít understand this armoury comparison between Pakistan & India.

    The bottom line is that Pakistan has enough power to wipe off India and India has enough power to wipe off Pakistan. If there is a war, both will loose.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    If S400 was so easy to beat, US wouldn't be worried about it.

    But let people think its so easily beatable.
    I don't think anyone thinks it's easily beatable. It isn't. Neither is the raffa or the su30. But every military will create counter measures. By its nature the s400 is a defensive weapon.

    To assume its invincible is also an error. India thinks it can place these near Pakistan, fly into our airspace, bomb our country and then fly back comfortable in the knowledge the mighty s400 will prevent retaliation.

    I can guarantee that won't happen. India is not Israel in the ME. You should have learnt your lesson by now.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I honestly donít understand this armoury comparison between Pakistan & India.

    The bottom line is that Pakistan has enough power to wipe off India and India has enough power to wipe off Pakistan. If there is a war, both will loose.
    It's about Indias obsession with creating space to kick its neighbours and be a dada. They want to have just enough leeway to bomb us without retaliation. They thought they could a couple of years ago hut miscalculated. They are desperate for revenge and want to do so again.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    No this is not entirely true. What they will do is protect sensitive Indian sites and facilities and attempt to make it incredibly difficult for the PAF to repeat swift retort. However the PAF has been training against the s400 for a significant period and the Chinese can most probably hack it any way. (In other words they will understand its weakness and will have counter measures developed).

    Also we have a heavy arsenal of anti radiation missiles and are introducing a large number of drones that will be used against them.

    India is hell bent on creating a Israel like situation in South Asia where they can bomb whatever country they want without retaliation. We can't let that happen. We won't let that happen.

    We have no real plans to enter deep into Indian airspace but will retaliate if they try to attack us or bomb us. As usual they think buying the biggest gun makes them a dada in the neighbourhood but reality can give you rude awakenings at times..
    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    This one does not fly. Chinese have purchased and deployed s400 for their own air defence. Why would they reveal its weakness to anyone?

    Pakistan's military will lose its edges over time with increasing distance from USA/NATO. Pakistan had access to technologies India never had - AIM-120, F16s, air defence, p-8, stinger missile, cobra helicopters, sensors like night vision goggles etc - free or with cheap financing. Something Pakistan will not be able to replicate with China or Russia. Not to mention the American/NATO exclusivity of some of these tech.

    On the other hand, India has been making rapid advances in last 1-2 decades in indigenous technologies especially missile and electronic warfare. Also some of the acquisitions (s400, rafale etc) in the last few years are game changers vis-a-vis Pakistan
    Thanks for both sharing this information. So it looks like S400 is indeed a game-changer as of now, the potential countermeasure is just an assumption. I'm talking about now, not what may happen in future. If next election is looking shaky( most likely not thanks to corrupt, weak Congress), Mr.Daddyiji will do something to win support.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    We have been training against the S400 during the various shaheen excercises. I dont doubt the PAF has a strategy to counter it.
    Alright, if you say so - that Chinese have hacked the s400 and shared the weakness/countermeasure with Pakistan. If you come with such favorable/unfounded assumptions/bravado on anything, then there is no argument left.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    China have mastered air defence and denial. We are also moving in that direction. Your mode of warfare is outdated if i may say so.
    So Pakistan is modernizing and India is/will not with better resources for indigenous development and access to both NATO and Russian tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Again you failed when it mattered and exposed how far behind you are.
    This is a matter of perception and what you (want to) believe. This is what has happened:
    India claimed they crosses IB and bombed Pakistan (partially accepted by Pakistan)
    India claimed (refusing to share technical evidences) they downed an F16 (refuted by Pakistan)
    India accepted a fratricide (no contest here).
    Pakistan claimed it fired SOW on Indian targets from within its territory (partially accepted by India)
    Pakistan claimed it downed 2 SU30s (refuted by India)
    Pakistan claimed it downed MIG21 & captured POW (accepted by India)
    Pakistan airspace was closed for months after the incident (no contest)
    Pakistan threw the kitchen sink at the attack and came on top in terms of optics since it downed an Indian MIG and captured a POW. If If Indian claims are true, you should be worried about strengthening its air defense, Pakistan pilots wasting AMRAAMs (shooting at Dmax), not able to cross IB (held off by 2 Mirage 2000), Su30 evading the dreaded AMRAAMs.
    If Pakistan claims are true, India needs to worry about SOW targeting and imaging, A2A capability, SDL equipment and operational procedures.


    Yes in an all out war your numbers will count but Armenia thought that too. In the next one you wont just be fighting on the LOC you'll be fighting on the LAC and the international border simultaneously. Your going to get a massive shock like you did on the 27th.

    Warfare has changed and its not about sending a tank over the border anymore. Its preventing the tank from starting, seeing and even moving. Or when it does move it cant go more than a few miles before becoming useless. Yes India is still a major military power but so was Iraq. I would temper things and do some major introspection.
    Again, if you come with such favorable/unfounded assumptions/bravado on anything, then there is no argument left.
    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    India thinks it can place these near Pakistan, fly into our airspace, bomb our country and then fly back comfortable in the knowledge the mighty s400 will prevent retaliation.
    Nobody is claiming invincibility. Its a definite advantage that you will need to counter and pay for.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I honestly donít understand this armoury comparison between Pakistan & India.

    The bottom line is that Pakistan has enough power to wipe off India and India has enough power to wipe off Pakistan. If there is a war, both will loose.
    India is the defender and Pakistan the aggressor. There is nothing India is seeking from Pakistan. Pakistan is using asymmetric means using proxies and miscreants to achieve its strategic aggression since it is behind in conventional capability. India will retaliate using conventional military means. Thats when/where the comparison comes. I am suggesting the obvious that this gap will widen with time forcing Pakistan to concede and back down from its aggressive aspirations.


    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    It's about Indias obsession with creating space to kick its neighbours and be a dada. They want to have just enough leeway to bomb us without retaliation.
    There is no truth or proof behind your claims. India does not seek anything from any of its neighbors. Just holding on to its current territory is a purely defensive position quite the opposite of dadagiri you accuse it of.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I honestly don’t understand this armoury comparison between Pakistan & India.

    The bottom line is that Pakistan has enough power to wipe off India and India has enough power to wipe off Pakistan. If there is a war, both will loose.
    This is the bottomline.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    This is the bottomline.
    This is the narrative from Pakistan which they want you to believe - that you are helpless against the atrocities. They have obviously succeeded to some extent that you concur with it.

    No of terrorist attacks have reduced notably in the last few years. This govt has thrown a spanner in this established mentality both within India and more so in Pakistan. They know now that there will be retaliation. No one is Pakistan is using the Nuke blackmail anymore - that bluff has now been called out a few times.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    This is the narrative from Pakistan which they want you to believe - that you are helpless against the atrocities. They have obviously succeeded to some extent that you concur with it.

    No of terrorist attacks have reduced notably in the last few years. This govt has thrown a spanner in this established mentality both within India and more so in Pakistan. They know now that there will be retaliation. No one is Pakistan is using the Nuke blackmail anymore - that bluff has now been called out a few times.
    If the bluff is called out, why India developed a cold feet over a PoW when Pakistan tried to attack military installations.?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by speed_thrills View Post
    If the bluff is called out, why India developed a cold feet over a PoW when Pakistan tried to attack military installations.?
    Pow was returned back unharmed within 2 days. Now go figure who might have gone cold and why. And whose airspace was closed for months thereafter

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    Alright, if you say so - that Chinese have hacked the s400 and shared the weakness/countermeasure with Pakistan. If you come with such favorable/unfounded assumptions/bravado on anything, then there is no argument left.

    Its an old system. They have had it for a number of years now. They will have developed counter measures against it. You still think the chinese are going to fight todays war. They wont. they'll be fighting tomorrows war. Your S400 is a direct threat to them but I can guarantee you that it will be taken out. Both adversaries have no choice but to do so. With regards to the term hacking , perhaps i was being simplistic. Lets just say adequate electronic counter measures will have been developed to counter it. Its simple logic.

    So Pakistan is modernizing and India is/will not with better resources for indigenous development and access to both NATO and Russian tech?

    I didn't say you weren't modernising but there are clear problems in your procurement and this is your own analysts saying so. What type of war are you going to fight? your procurement strategy lacks real cohesion. You have numerous types in service. With a variation in their systems. This causes numerous logistical problems. What is the state of your network centric war strategy? What about your EW environment? I can only speak for the very recent demonstration of your capability and with all due respect it was highly lacking.


    Nobody is claiming invincibility. Its a definite advantage that you will need to counter and pay for.

    and im saying we will have developed a counter for it. We've known its been coming for a number of years.


    India is the defender and Pakistan the aggressor. There is nothing India is seeking from Pakistan. Pakistan is using asymmetric means using proxies and miscreants to achieve its strategic aggression since it is behind in conventional capability.

    What do we have to gain from seeking aggression against a neighbour that large? its nonsensical. On the other hand it is entirely logical to assume that India seeks a dominant role within south asia to further its world power aspirations. To achieve this it needs a docile compliant neighbourhood. Pakistan seeks none of this. Your own politicians and senior officials have stated this quite openly. Its in the public domain. Pakistan stance has always been defensive and driven by insecurity. This is a historical fact and can be proven using facts, logic and history.

    India will retaliate using conventional military means. Thats when/where the comparison comes. I am suggesting the obvious that this gap will widen with time forcing Pakistan to concede and back down from its aggressive aspirations.

    This is mere rhetoric and is not backed by any real facts on the ground. This is 1980's thinking in the 21st century and if indian analysts and experts think like this your going to lose more engagements. Pakistan will not begin any engagement. E.g. balakot which you initiated due to your own domestic political neccessity. You assumed Pakistan was like Syria or palestine that you could bomb when you felt like it.

    There is no truth or proof behind your claims. India does not seek anything from any of its neighbors. Just holding on to its current territory is a purely defensive position quite the opposite of dadagiri you accuse it of. What territory is it in danger of losing to Pakistan? Strong arming smaller neighbours, supporting terrorism in these areas, promoting a nuclearised south asia, interfering in the domestic politics of its neighbours, the list goes on and on and on. India is not some meek puppy being attacked by its neighbours. It has major power aspirations and thinks it can bully smaller neighbours into submission.

    I have to answer your childish remarks below and then i will stop as i dont think youve really done some independent research into this matter and are simply regurgitating twitter troll nonsense.

    This is a matter of perception and what you (want to) believe. This is what has happened:
    India claimed they crosses IB and bombed Pakistan (partially accepted by Pakistan)
    They used SPICE SOWS and when returning crossed the IB as per their trajectory and awareness of PAF response. The SOWS missed their target.
    India claimed (refusing to share technical evidences) they downed an F16 (refuted by Pakistan)
    and independently verified by the US.
    India accepted a fratricide (no contest here).
    true
    Pakistan claimed it fired SOW on Indian targets from within its territory (partially accepted by India)
    No Pakistan has also claimed they crossed the LOC and have produced video evidence of the strikes.
    Pakistan claimed it downed 2 SU30s (refuted by India)
    No we claimed we downed one not two
    Pakistan claimed it downed MIG21 & captured POW (accepted by India)
    Pakistan airspace was closed for months after the incident (no contest)
    Weeks i believe not months to prevent the spoofing of passenger jets as the isrealis like to do thus preventing a tragedy
    Pakistan threw the kitchen sink at the attack and came on top in terms of optics since it downed an Indian MIG and captured a POW.


    If If Indian claims are true, you should be worried about strengthening its air defense, Pakistan pilots wasting AMRAAMs (shooting at Dmax), not able to cross IB (held off by 2 Mirage 2000), Su30 evading the dreaded AMRAAMs.
    Indian claims are not true. No mirages held anybody off and your su30 got a amraam in its tailpipe which you showed off to the world. Your mirages were deaf and blind like your mig. They couldnt see anything and turned and returned to base. If they had "held off" anybody they would have taken out the "kitchen sink" attack and shot down our strike package. They didnt fire a single shot, ended up allegedly evading amraams instead of taking out our "chinese junk" and 100 year old mirages. Your evaders were busy evading an engagement and you should be very worried

    If Pakistan claims are true, India needs to worry about SOW targeting and imaging, A2A capability, SDL equipment and operational procedures.
    If pakistans claims are true (which they are based on actual and circumstantial evidence) then India needs to worry about, pilot training, intelligence failures, ground controller training, the ISI that seems to have infiltrated every level of your force, A2A AND A2G ability, EW capability, procedures, strategy and well just about everything that makes a airforce capable.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    Pow was returned back unharmed within 2 days. Now go figure who might have gone cold and why. And whose airspace was closed for months thereafter
    Cold feet? Lol

    It was assumed and hoped by Modi regime that the world would put pressure on Pakistan not to retaliate against Indian aggression as India has a right to self defense against Bollywood inspired script and the concerned countries did put pressure on Pakistan except China and Turkey.

    Despite being told by powerful countries Pakistan did retaliate in a broad day light.

    Donít confuse wanting peace with weakness.

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    Lol, no cure for delusion. Despite. Being shot down like dogs they believe their airforce is superior.

    The only edge India has is numbers. And thatís like asking a heavyweight to fight a welterweight.

    Man for Man, Pakistan owns India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    I have to answer your childish remarks below and then i will stop as i dont think youve really done some independent research into this matter and are simply regurgitating twitter troll nonsense.


    If pakistans claims are true (which they are based on actual and circumstantial evidence) then India needs to worry about, pilot training, intelligence failures, ground controller training, the ISI that seems to have infiltrated every level of your force, A2A AND A2G ability, EW capability, procedures, strategy and well just about everything that makes a airforce capable.
    Lol at the haughtiness. Let me summarize your statements (and I have no retort for these since they are based on assumptions):
    - Chinese have some countermeasure against s400 and that it will be shared with Pakistan. Even otherwise, PAF has or will have a solution
    - Our modernization plans are dated and on the wrong trajectory. Yours are top notch.
    - The growing difference in economic and diplomatic power is not going to spill over to military strength.

    Re: Who is trying to be a dada?
    The answer to this questions lies in the answer to these: Who is trying to influence a change in status quo in terms of territorial possessions? India is more than happy with current status quo. Who is interfering in Kashmir through proxies and miscreants - providing them logistics, arms, training, leadership and directives? This is well proven and acknowledged world over and admitted by Pakistan. So no, we are not the initiating aggressor viz-aviz Pakistan. Not even talking about the innumerable terrorist attacks in the rest of India in the last 3 decades.

    Some counters:
    - No Pakistan has also claimed they crossed the LOC and have produced video evidence of the strikes.: This is false and I challenge you to show me one reference even from a verified Pakistan source that says any single PAF plane intruded inside Indian air space.
    - if they had "held off" anybody they would have taken out the "kitchen sink" attack and shot down our strike package: We were outgunned on that day in terms of being able to match the range of AIM-120. This is my whole argument. This American/NATO edge in your military will dwindle away in coming years due to your geopolitical realignment to China.

    Lastly, re: credibility:
    - If you refer the history of 75 years, all Indian claims have held the test of time and Pakistan eventually admitting the facts - 1971 (refer your news papers the day before you lost Bangladesh), Kargil (disowned its army men), allegations on terrorism etc. Pakistan does not have an ounce of credibility in international forms. So no, sorry, your claims are just that - skeptical at best, lies at worst like always.
    Last edited by Lego20; 28th January 2022 at 06:29.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaLoco View Post
    Cold feet? Lol

    It was assumed and hoped by Modi regime that the world would put pressure on Pakistan not to retaliate against Indian aggression as India has a right to self defense against Bollywood inspired script and the concerned countries did put pressure on Pakistan except China and Turkey.

    Despite being told by powerful countries Pakistan did retaliate in a broad day light.

    Donít confuse wanting peace with weakness.
    Nothing was assumed, except by you.

    India was ready for escalation, but Pakistan made the decision to release Abhinandan within 48 hrs. If India had escalated from that point, it would look like aggression and not self defense.

    The line has been drawn by India, any major terror attack in India, with links to Pakistan, will result in India retaliating with conventional warfare to impose costs on pakistan. While India economy can absorb the cost of an escalation, lets see if IMF or Saudi will finance pakistan's.

    Its not a low cost option for pakistan any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegitto1 View Post
    Lol, no cure for delusion. Despite. Being shot down like dogs they believe their airforce is superior.

    The only edge India has is numbers. And thatís like asking a heavyweight to fight a welterweight.

    Man for Man, Pakistan owns India.
    Why did you guys ran away from Kashmir in 1965? Why did OP grandslam fail?

    Why is Bangladesh a free country today? Where did 90k pakistanis stay for over 2 years?

    Why did pakistan abandon its dead soldiers in 1999?

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    If pakistan army had superiority over India, they would have invaded Kashmir to take it. And imran wouldn't be reduced to rants in twitter.

    The only time pakistan was anywhere near Indian Army was in 1965 and PAF had better fighters. But the pak generals failed them with their stupid thinking. Else PAF had definite advantage in 1965 .

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Weeks i believe not months to prevent the spoofing of passenger jets as the isrealis like to do thus preventing a tragedy
    Pakistan reopens airspace for civil aviation after nearly five month

    Pakistan's airspace has been reopened to civil aviation with immediate effect, the Civil Aviation Authority said on Tuesday, following months of restrictions imposed in the wake of a standoff with India earlier this year

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1494402

    ...

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    If pakistan army had superiority over India, they would have invaded Kashmir to take it. And imran wouldn't be reduced to rants in twitter.

    The only time pakistan was anywhere near Indian Army was in 1965 and PAF had better fighters. But the pak generals failed them with their stupid thinking. Else PAF had definite advantage in 1965 .
    This is not rant, this is courage, taking on a country 6 times bigger.

    Your PM hasn't guts to even mention 'China' despite both countries being at almost same size population wise. China is moving closer and closer.

    Don't you even feel embarrased comparing 'the powerful' India with a nation 6 times smaller. This shouldn't be even a match. You actually should ignore this topic. At least I would have if a country 6-7 times smaller tried to threaten Pakistan. (And yes, keep AFG outside lol)


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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    If pakistan army had superiority over India, they would have invaded Kashmir to take it. And imran wouldn't be reduced to rants in twitter.

    The only time pakistan was anywhere near Indian Army was in 1965 and PAF had better fighters. But the pak generals failed them with their stupid thinking. Else PAF had definite advantage in 1965 .
    Pakistan has hardly any military victories against India worth the name. Shooting down Abhinadan's 1960s Soviet vintage aircraft and offering him tea is one of those rare moments. I think we should allow them to celebrate it.

    They don't have anything else to celebrate so they keep harping about that.

    And yes, they'll go on about 152-0 for decades to come too..

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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    Pakistan has hardly any military victories against India worth the name. Shooting down Abhinadan's 1960s Soviet vintage aircraft and offering him tea is one of those rare moments. I think we should allow them to celebrate it.

    They don't have anything else to celebrate so they keep harping about that.

    And yes, they'll go on about 152-0 for decades to come too..
    How are you allowing Pakistan to celebrate when your elected Emperor give him award each year for a fictional story - rather feel bad that as a respected soldier for his nation he has been reduced as token award receiver to preserve the ego of a nationalistic PM.

    When Pakistani mention Abhinanden, it is in a context of correctly and rightfully discrediting the fantasy of Indian posters and Indian media - nothing else.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAJ View Post
    This is not rant, this is courage, taking on a country 6 times bigger.

    Your PM hasn't guts to even mention 'China' despite both countries being at almost same size population wise. China is moving closer and closer.
    It is called ďdiplomacyĒ.look it up. For what itís worth Modi hasnít mentioned Pakistan or Imran Khan either.

    On the other hand, IK has given his views on pretty much every country under the sun.

    You do the math, which country has better diplomatic relations.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAJ View Post
    This is not rant, this is courage, taking on a country 6 times bigger.

    Your PM hasn't guts to even mention 'China' despite both countries being at almost same size population wise. China is moving closer and closer.

    Don't you even feel embarrased comparing 'the powerful' India with a nation 6 times smaller. This shouldn't be even a match. You actually should ignore this topic. At least I would have if a country 6-7 times smaller tried to threaten Pakistan. (And yes, keep AFG outside lol)
    It is rant because he can't do anything else. He has no military economic or diplomatic means to do anything in respect to India, so he rants on twitter.

    My PM has the guts to take on China which is why China is on the dialogue table. 2 days ago China issued a statement saying they don't want USA to interfere in the India China issue and that they are doing everything to resolve it with India.

    Btw Modi hasn't responded to imran too. International diplomacy is done behind close doors.

    Its not about who is a match who is not. Its about another country trying to incite secession in India. TBH in 1965 pakistan armed forces were quiet the match. But sorry to say you guys had poor generals who were atrocious planners.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    Pakistan has hardly any military victories against India worth the name. Shooting down Abhinadan's 1960s Soviet vintage aircraft and offering him tea is one of those rare moments. I think we should allow them to celebrate it.

    They don't have anything else to celebrate so they keep harping about that.

    And yes, they'll go on about 152-0 for decades to come too..
    Well thats why they will talk about some fictional 1000 year rule, or try to claim the victory of Arabs or Turks or Persians or even central Asians as their own.

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    After all of the parodsi done trying to divert the thread with usual repeated talking points then can any of you all present any evidence of Pakistans involvement and downing of Pakistani F16 by Abhinanden .

    Please refrain from posting Indian source, no one here consider Indian source or media credible

    Thank you!

    while y'all at it, how do you all feel Abhinanden getting award for something that never happened

    If Modi had guts, he would have sent planes and soldier to reclaim the territory which China has claimed, just like PM of Pakistan did when politically driven attack with no evidence of Pakistan's involvement by the Emperor of India, Modi Ji and that too after:

    1- PM went on Tv to warn Emperor Modi, not to take stupid action, because we will retaliate and if have any evidence then please present.
    2- India became aggressor, Pakistan retaliated in self defense in a broad day light despite being put pressure on by the concerning powers of the world, not to.
    3- Captured a solder and to keep the peace, Pakistan returned the soldier respectfully.

    Last edited by LaLoco; 28th January 2022 at 21:35.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    It is rant because he can't do anything else. He has no military economic or diplomatic means to do anything in respect to India, so he rants on twitter.

    My PM has the guts to take on China which is why China is on the dialogue table. 2 days ago China issued a statement saying they don't want USA to interfere in the India China issue and that they are doing everything to resolve it with India.

    Btw Modi hasn't responded to imran too. International diplomacy is done behind close doors.

    Its not about who is a match who is not. Its about another country trying to incite secession in India. TBH in 1965 pakistan armed forces were quiet the match. But sorry to say you guys had poor generals who were atrocious planners.
    LOL, okay basically it is saying, stay away US from this, we got this, do not waste your time on this, that captured territory belong to us now.- and you tried to present that as a strength of Modi.

    One thing for sure, Indians are very good at it spinning everything.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaLoco View Post
    LOL, okay basically it is saying, stay away US from this, we got this, do not waste your time on this, that captured territory belong to us now.- and you tried to present that as a strength of Modi.

    One thing for sure, Indians are very good at it spinning everything.
    China has no captured territory unless you are talking about the ones from 60s.

    China is afraid that India will allow US to operate bases in Andaman and Ladakh if US and India become close military allies. Hence their statements to keep US away and negotiate with India.

    One thing is for sure Pakistani army has no victories over India and hence they will talk about everyone from the Arabs to the Chinese.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    China has no captured territory unless you are talking about the ones from 60s.

    China is afraid that India will allow US to operate bases in Andaman and Ladakh if US and India become close military allies. Hence their statements to keep US away and negotiate with India.
    It that what is being said by Indian media - almost as believable as Abhindandhen downed Pakistani F16 but only in India

    One thing is for sure Pakistani army has no victories over India and hence they will talk about everyone from the Arabs to the Chinese.

    LOL, any evidence regarding Pulwama ?
    Regards

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaLoco View Post
    Regards
    Well ask your dgispr ghafoor who was the dusra banda?

    You mean evidence on the basis of which UNSC banned another pakistani?

  32. #112
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    Oh look at these Indians in a circle

    India has won all wars against Pakistan ever. We the Pakistani nation should be thankful they are letting us exist.

    Same goes for China! India Army can invade and conquer China in a week.



  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Well ask your dgispr ghafoor who was the dusra banda?

    You mean evidence on the basis of which UNSC banned another pakistani?
    So no evidence but all you want to do is chest thumping and defend Emperor Modi fir reducing Abhinanden to receiving awards on based on a fictional story coiled up by the Indian government and media.

    Waste of time.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lego20 View Post
    Lol at the haughtiness. Let me summarize your statements (and I have no retort for these since they are based on assumptions):
    - Chinese have some countermeasure against s400 and that it will be shared with Pakistan. Even otherwise, PAF has or will have a solution
    - Our modernization plans are dated and on the wrong trajectory. Yours are top notch.
    - The growing difference in economic and diplomatic power is not going to spill over to military strength.
    I didnt say your plans are dated. I said your strategy is flawed. inmho. why are you getting so defensive? Your economic strength is one thing but if your going to try and fight the wrong type of war you will be found wanting.



    Re: Who is trying to be a dada?
    The answer to this questions lies in the answer to these: Who is trying to influence a change in status quo in terms of territorial possessions? India is more than happy with current status quo. Who is interfering in Kashmir through proxies and miscreants - providing them logistics, arms, training, leadership and directives? This is well proven and acknowledged world over and admitted by Pakistan. So no, we are not the initiating aggressor viz-aviz Pakistan. Not even talking about the innumerable terrorist attacks in the rest of India in the last 3 decades.

    Sorry but can you give me the casualty figures by pakistani proxies carried out on India in the last decade please? what aggression? every move made by Pakistan has been to counter a move by India. but enough of this tu tu main main. Just give me the casualty figures in the last decade. Its a reasonable time scale.

    Some counters:
    - No Pakistan has also claimed they crossed the LOC and have produced video evidence of the strikes.: This is false and I challenge you to show me one reference even from a verified Pakistan source that says any single PAF plane intruded inside Indian air space.

    ok ill give you this one. my initial analysis did state (and you can find it on this forum) was that we used stand off weapons, and targeted 6 of your sites. in broad daylight.


    - if they had "held off" anybody they would have taken out the "kitchen sink" attack and shot down our strike package: We were outgunned on that day in terms of being able to match the range of AIM-120. This is my whole argument. This American/NATO edge in your military will dwindle away in coming years due to your geopolitical realignment to China.

    With all due respect in the 1990's we had hardly any NATO exercises with the US and our edge never diminished. At this moment we have regular exercises with NATO and these will continue. who told you they will stop? Turkey is the largest military in NATO after the US and our relations with them are impeccable. We will also continue to exercise with air arms across the world and many are NATO "compatible". Your dream that our training will diminish is wishful thinking. As for the chinese why do you think their capabilities are less than NATO? We cannot afford to make a mistake hence our training has to be top notch. You can probably get away with it. We cant.

    Lastly, re: credibility:
    - If you refer the history of 75 years, all Indian claims have held the test of time and Pakistan eventually admitting the facts - 1971 (refer your news papers the day before you lost Bangladesh), Kargil (disowned its army men), allegations on terrorism etc. Pakistan does not have an ounce of credibility in international forms. So no, sorry, your claims are just that - skeptical at best, lies at worst like always.
    Lol, its the same story with you guys. You think your propaganda will continue to hold. I'll tell you something. It no longer matters. You see on the 26th your allies the US and others were eager to see what you could do. And you blew it miserably. and then the continued humiliation after that just made it worse. My lies? lol. ok my friend. Keep going. Then ladakh and other humiliations ensued.

    You see your Bison that was shot down was supposed to be upgraded with the best Israeli avionics and even the US airforce were impressed with it. It wasnt a pile of garbage. and then your mirages. They have given plenty of airforces headaches in exercises. Every single one failed. Your intelligence failed. Your training failed. You can buy whatever you want. if your training continues down this path , you will continue to lose. Im sorry to say this. I remember debating on this very forum about the problems with your su30 fleet months before the 26th. All i heard was SU30 etc etc..where was it?

    Modern war is fought by airforces and tech. You failed..and next time we will be prepared again. we expect something in 2023 or 2024. Finally as for lies well just turn your news on.

  35. #115
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    By the way heres the link to us crossing the LOC in broad daylight. I thought i had read it:

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...0.cms?from=mdr

    and its an indian news paper with a statement from your airforce.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    You see your Bison that was shot down was supposed to be upgraded with the best Israeli avionics and even the US airforce were impressed with it. It wasnt a pile of garbage. and then your mirages. They have given plenty of airforces headaches in exercises. Every single one failed. Your intelligence failed. Your training failed. You can buy whatever you want. if your training continues down this path , you will continue to lose. Im sorry to say this. I remember debating on this very forum about the problems with your su30 fleet months before the 26th. All i heard was SU30 etc etc..where was it?

    Modern war is fought by airforces and tech. You failed..and next time we will be prepared again. we expect something in 2023 or 2024. Finally as for lies well just turn your news on.
    There is too much over-confidence and contempt oozing out of you. Fine by me.

    From an Indian standpoint this is where we came short on the skirmish:
    - A2A range
    - SDL
    - operational procedures (IFF switched off lead to fratricide)
    IAF has addressed all of these. And not the doom-gloom catastrophe you proclaim. Infact, there were some good outcomes as well. Sports and combat are rarely a black/white one-sided affair. If you treat your any opponent with such contempt and complacency, you are doomed to fail.

    Lets come back to this debate if (hopefully not but likely) such incidence happens again. Will eat my words if it results in a net loss or stalemate for India.

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    By the way heres the link to us crossing the LOC in broad daylight. I thought i had read it:

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...0.cms?from=mdr

    and its an indian news paper with a statement from your airforce.
    This is incorrect reporting by the news reporter. This is the statement from IAF chief:
    "Pakistani fighter jets did not enter Indian airspace after Balakot: Indian Air Force chief ** Dhanoa"

    https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...dhanoa-2764530

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Well ask your dgispr ghafoor who was the dusra banda?

    You mean evidence on the basis of which UNSC banned another pakistani?
    How about you ask Bipin Rawat how amazing Indian Pilots are. I am sure any Indian pilot can take you to him.


    Whenever Nawaz wins, he divides PMLN equally. He keeps PM for himself and gives L N to the people.

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