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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin Chacha View Post
    Read the article again. 18th largest in terms of numbers but at around 6 million people comes to less than 5% of the total population of 200 million.
    I suggest you read the article again, this time slowly. 61 Million, NOT 6 million. Read slowly.

    In a 2011 publication titled ‘Estimating the middle class in Pakistan,’ Dr Dur-e-Nayab, an economist associated with the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics (PIDE), came up with a figure of 61 million people (about 40 percent of the population) for the country’s middle class. The categorization was on the basis of a criterion she called ‘expanded middle class’. On the basis of the same definition, the Indian middle class is estimated to be 25 percent of that country’s population.
    This makes Pakistan's middle class the 18th highest!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I suggest you read the article again, this time slowly. 61 Million, NOT 6 million. Read slowly.



    This makes Pakistan's middle class the 18th highest!
    From the same article if you read where the 18th largest figure came from:

    In its Global Wealth Report 2015, Credit Suisse said Pakistan had the 18th largest middle class (6.27 million people) in the world. Unlike the more common practice of using income and the standard of living to define a social class, Credit Suisse used the measure of ‘personal wealth band’ to determine the middle class.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Exactly these people in Pakistan who are currently screaming about new deductions from their salary would be absolutely screaming seeing the source deductions from their pay cheques in a full fledged welfare state like the UK.

    IK is trying to establish an Islamic Welfare State in the long run. The people of Pakistan need to pitch in and pay their dues. They cant demand that the govt provide them with first world facilities, benefits but refuse to pay for it. Tax Evasion, Non compliance needs to be made punishable by death across the board
    Welfare state by having HEC and health budget cut by half lol. There is Rs1.4 trillion incresse in taxes but zero percent increase in PSDP. I don't mind paying taxes but spend that money on us as well.

  4. #84
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    At the end of the day, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tax brackets in Pakistan, in fact it's still low in comparison to other countries in the region.

    The problem is people are yet to see benefit of paying tax in Pakistan i.e. medical and education facilities so i don't blame them if they feel frustrated because job situation isn't as good as other neighboring countries. What they need to understand is that these changes were absolutely crucial at least as a short term solution until we start to see benefits of long term solutions. We were heading towards disaster with heavy borrowing to fund massive subsidies.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    It's got nothing to do with politics, but the implementation of a tried and tested taxation system. Claiming people in the West have better services because the economies are developed is a myth. People in the West pay for services - nothing is for free in the West.

    What is known is that corruption is a disease in Pakistan and many people have benefited from corruption - just one of the ground realities. Other ground realities include 0.57% of Pakistanis of pay taxes!

    What IK is trying to do is to implement a tax system, collect tax from more Pakistanis. There is nothing wrong in this. Those who oppose IL on the other hand are now having to rely on other sources of income other than corruption.
    Exactly the point I and other people have been trying to make. The major portion of this 0.57% is salaried individuals and they are the ones who are being squeezed further by increasing taxes on them.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin Chacha View Post
    From the same article if you read where the 18th largest figure came from:

    In its Global Wealth Report 2015, Credit Suisse said Pakistan had the 18th largest middle class (6.27 million people) in the world. Unlike the more common practice of using income and the standard of living to define a social class, Credit Suisse used the measure of ‘personal wealth band’ to determine the middle class.
    Yes, but look at the last sentence. The 6 Million figure is determined using an uncommon method called personal wealth band, as opposed to the common method that is income. Using income the figure is 61 Million. Using wealth band, the figure is 6 Million.

    Bearing in mind 50% of the economy is undocumented, and the only people who hide their money are the rich and those wanting to avoid taxes. Imagine what the figures would be in a 90% documented economy!

    Crying over why the middle class having to be squeezed is not uncommon, you need to check out the cries of the middle class in the UK (inline with the USA etc). Middle class always have to pay the price because the rich do not work, and the poor cannot work.

    Decades of tax evasion and avoidance has a price, and unfortunately the Middle Class are the ones who have to pay because they are the economy.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by shah_1 View Post
    Welfare state by having HEC and health budget cut by half lol. There is Rs1.4 trillion incresse in taxes but zero percent increase in PSDP. I don't mind paying taxes but spend that money on us as well.
    Sadly the govt hands are tied, half of the revenue goes to making loan repayments, then goes to Defence and given the security challenges Pakistan cannot afford to reduce the defence budget, what is left for everything else ie education, health, infrastructure development, the federal govt also allocates money to the provinces under the 18th amendment

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Don't you think that just like you guys know the ground realities in UK better than us, we as life time residents of Pakistan know the situation here better than you? Or just because IK can do no wrong, we have to accept your version of the "Pakistani reality"?
    I lived in Pakistan for 27 years and am now living in Canada for the last 7. I know both worlds and countries

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Exactly the point I and other people have been trying to make. The major portion of this 0.57% is salaried individuals and they are the ones who are being squeezed further by increasing taxes on them.
    0.57% is not the figure representing all those who are in work, but just those who pay taxes. 0.57% represents approx 768000 people out of a population of 190 million who pay income tax.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Pakistan

    The reality is if the tax system is implemented correctly and fairly, that 0.57% figure would be much much higher!

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    I lived in Pakistan for 27 years and am now living in Canada for the last 7. I know both worlds and countries
    Then I would expect you to empathize with the problems faced by most Pakistanis instead of taking it personally or making it about IK.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Sadly the govt hands are tied, half of the revenue goes to making loan repayments, then goes to Defence and given the security challenges Pakistan cannot afford to reduce the defence budget, what is left for everything else ie education, health, infrastructure development, the federal govt also allocates money to the provinces under the 18th amendment
    Higher education and health is secondary for PTI. No country can progess without research and quality higher education no matter how many tanks and figher jets you have.
    Its disgusting PTI supporters defending HEC cut. A mere 40 to 50 b won't create fiscal havous, just pathetic from you

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    At the end of the day, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tax brackets in Pakistan, in fact it's still low in comparison to other countries in the region.

    The problem is people are yet to see benefit of paying tax in Pakistan i.e. medical and education facilities so i don't blame them if they feel frustrated because job situation isn't as good as other neighboring countries. What they need to understand is that these changes were absolutely crucial at least as a short term solution until we start to see benefits of long term solutions. We were heading towards disaster with heavy borrowing to fund massive subsidies.
    of course but the reason they haven't seen the benefits is because the money has been stolen and put into foreign bank accounts. I would recommend everyone read Shashi tharoors book inglorious empire that describes how the east india company looted the subcontinent. The mafia in charge was the new east india company..

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    0.57% is not the figure representing all those who are in work, but just those who pay taxes. 0.57% represents approx 768000 people out of a population of 190 million who pay income tax.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Pakistan

    The reality is if the tax system is implemented correctly and fairly, that 0.57% figure would be much much higher!
    I think one of us is confused here. Maybe it is me. You are admitting that only a small proportion of the country's population is paying taxes (a majority of it being salaried individuals who are taxed at source) and that the tax base should be broadened but then go on to advocate that it is ok to further squeeze those already paying taxes.

    I don't know about the origins of the figure you have quoted but you can find the names of all taxpayers on the FBR website and most of them are salaried individuals. Also if these numbers have been taken from the FBR directory then this is the number of filers, the number of people actually paying tax in a specific year might be much lower.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    of course but the reason they haven't seen the benefits is because the money has been stolen and put into foreign bank accounts. I would recommend everyone read Shashi tharoors book inglorious empire that describes how the east india company looted the subcontinent. The mafia in charge was the new east india company..
    God knows how we are going to educate such people and that includes some highly educated people. Their argument is that even if they stole some but rest can be seen in Infrastructure development.
    Now here is the problem for Imran Khan, let's use example of Circular debt which was around Rs500 Billion when PMLN took over and they left Rs1200 Billion. Now if PTI gov decides repay this Rs1200 Billion in their 5 years tenure, it would seem that they have done NOTHING and 99% people won't see this change. If they decide to spend even half on infrastructure development then majority will praise them (except hardcore patwaris and jyalas). At the end of the day, no one cares about debt repayments or loans, it's all about VISIBLE PROJECTS (heavy majority doesn't give a damn about reforms or debt reduction).

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    I think one of us is confused here. Maybe it is me. You are admitting that only a small proportion of the country's population is paying taxes (a majority of it being salaried individuals who are taxed at source) and that the tax base should be broadened but then go on to advocate that it is ok to further squeeze those already paying taxes.

    I don't know about the origins of the figure you have quoted but you can find the names of all taxpayers on the FBR website and most of them are salaried individuals. Also if these numbers have been taken from the FBR directory then this is the number of filers, the number of people actually paying tax in a specific year might be much lower.
    I provided the link to the 0.57% figure in my post which you have quoted, which represents approx 800000 people.

    So what you are trying to tell me is that less that 800000 are taxed at source. What about the others who are working representing the middle class? See what I am getting at?

    I get your complaint about being squeezed (just like any other middle class), but you are being squeezed harder because of decades of tax avoidance/evasion in Pakistan.

    Indigenous Pakistanis love to criticize expats etc, but indigenous Pakistanis are to blame for they have been voting corrupt dynasties into power for decades. Now that the brown envelopes have stopped, champions of Pakistan are complaining about Imran Khan who is at the very least, trying to sort something out! Change doesn't happen over night!

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    God knows how we are going to educate such people and that includes some highly educated people. Their argument is that even if they stole some but rest can be seen in Infrastructure development.
    Now here is the problem for Imran Khan, let's use example of Circular debt which was around Rs500 Billion when PMLN took over and they left Rs1200 Billion. Now if PTI gov decides repay this Rs1200 Billion in their 5 years tenure, it would seem that they have done NOTHING and 99% people won't see this change. If they decide to spend even half on infrastructure development then majority will praise them (except hardcore patwaris and jyalas). At the end of the day, no one cares about debt repayments or loans, it's all about VISIBLE PROJECTS (heavy majority doesn't give a damn about reforms or debt reduction).
    No wonder every country in Asia is doing better than us, its not just the hukmuraan it is the jahil awaam who are squirming and screaming because they have to pay Rs. 2000 in tax a year. While they have no problems in spending Rs 150,000 on the latest Iphone.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I am saying sending money back to Pakistan does boost the economy. The good life in Pakistan costs money, and consumer spending drives economy expansion.

    It is easy to point the finger at patriots over the internet, and we can only speculate when it comes to their contribution to Pakistan, but what are you doing for Pakistan instead of belittling, criticizing, abusing, a nation, which you categorically state are unfortunate of? You are even prepared if given the opportunity to move out of Pakistan!
    Actually I had the opportunity to settle abroad but I didnít. Why? Not because I consider myself a patriot, but because I have the financial means to live a comfortable life in Pakistan.

    I donít want to work like a mule in the West when I can work from 8 am to 2 pm only 5 days a week. I donít get paid much, but luckily it is not my only source of income.

    I belittle, criticize and whatever, but I am an active contributor because I am provide my services here.

    And yes I have no qualms in admitting that I consider myself unfortunate to be a Pakistani. Of all the countries in the world, I had to be born here. What are the odds?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Actually I had the opportunity to settle abroad but I didn’t. Why? Not because I consider myself a patriot, but because I have the financial means to live a comfortable life in Pakistan.

    I don’t want to work like a mule in the West when I can work from 8 am to 2 pm only 5 days a week. I don’t get paid much, but luckily it is not my only source of income.

    I belittle, criticize and whatever, but I am an active contributor because I am provide my services here.

    And yes I have no qualms in admitting that I consider myself unfortunate to be a Pakistani. Of all the countries in the world, I had to be born here. What are the odds?
    Just out of curiosity, if you had a choice to be born in a country, which country would you choose?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Actually I had the opportunity to settle abroad but I didn’t. Why? Not because I consider myself a patriot, but because I have the financial means to live a comfortable life in Pakistan.

    I don’t want to work like a mule in the West when I can work from 8 am to 2 pm only 5 days a week. I don’t get paid much, but luckily it is not my only source of income.

    I belittle, criticize and whatever, but I am an active contributor because I am provide my services here.

    And yes I have no qualms in admitting that I consider myself unfortunate to be a Pakistani. Of all the countries in the world, I had to be born here. What are the odds?
    So to summarize, you would not move to the West given the life of a mule (this point I will actually agree as life in the West is overrated), but strikeout the West in favour of a comfortable life in Pakistan? Doesn't make sense given your feelings towards Pakistan!

    I suppose now you realize why expats build property in Pakistan etc send money to their families in Pakistan etc, because you are not the only Pakistani - unfortunate one at that - who sees how life in Pakistan is actually superior to the ground-hog debt serving life of the West.

    Just out of curiosity, if you had a choice to be born in a country, which country would you choose? (I doubt I will get an answer - long odds ey!)

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Name the services.

    State Pension? I have to wait till I am 70 before I can claim any state pension, and this age is not even set in stone. In next year's budget it can go up to 71! It's an ever moving target.

    Free Health care? No such thing. NI contributions ensure the NHS is not free, it comes out of the tax payers pocket.

    I pay 45% tax. Yes 45%. It is a myth I get free services, when the reality is I actually pay for said services through my taxes, moreover, the services which matter to me are only applicable when I am of 70!

    Reality is if I want a private Pension at 55, I got to pay into a private pension from my disposable income. If I want to get ahead of the medical treatment queue, I got to pay for it.

    This is how my taxes were distributed for the previous financial year (APR 2018 to APR 2019)

    Attachment 92423
    ďNHS is not free, it comes out of the tax payers pocket.Ē

    Yes duh, sky is blue.

    Where do you think government is going to get the money to fund the NHS? Of course the tax revenue.

    The point is that you are getting something good and functional in return of your money. The NHS is not perfect, but it still a system that works and is far, far better than the healthcare in Pakistan.

    You feel that you deserve more than what you get, but you are still getting a lot more than the people of Pakistan.

    That is why your standard of living is considerably higher, and that is why you will come up with a million excuses if I ask you to come back to Pakistan, the country you proclaim to love and defend over the Internet.

    If you think you are not getting your moneyís worth in the UK and people in Pakistan are not getting a worse deal, you are more than welcome to return to Pakistan and enjoy the better services here.

    On a side note, your tax money was also used to fund the WOT and as a result, your money has contributed to the death of millions of innocent Muslims. I pity your conscience.

    The solution of having a clear conscience and to enjoy a better standard of living is to come back to Pakistan.

    We are also on the brink of establishing a Madinah welfare state under the watchful eye of Khalifa Imran Khan Niazi. So what are you waiting for? Book your flight now.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    God knows how we are going to educate such people and that includes some highly educated people. Their argument is that even if they stole some but rest can be seen in Infrastructure development.
    Now here is the problem for Imran Khan, let's use example of Circular debt which was around Rs500 Billion when PMLN took over and they left Rs1200 Billion. Now if PTI gov decides repay this Rs1200 Billion in their 5 years tenure, it would seem that they have done NOTHING and 99% people won't see this change. If they decide to spend even half on infrastructure development then majority will praise them (except hardcore patwaris and jyalas). At the end of the day, no one cares about debt repayments or loans, it's all about VISIBLE PROJECTS (heavy majority doesn't give a damn about reforms or debt reduction).
    You can't educated anyone on this matter.

    The only way to bring about the difference when people start to seeing difference.

    Remember these are the same people who would say, we only have 2 choice, either Zardari or NS.

    There are people who would criticize for the sake of criticism, then there are those who criticize to save their chaddi, then there are those who criticize because they do not know much better and living on daily wages.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    So to summarize, you would not move to the West given the life of a mule (this point I will actually agree as life in the West is overrated), but strikeout the West in favour of a comfortable life in Pakistan? Doesn't make sense given your feelings towards Pakistan!

    I suppose now you realize why expats build property in Pakistan etc send money to their families in Pakistan etc, because you are not the only Pakistani - unfortunate one at that - who sees how life in Pakistan is actually superior to the ground-hog debt serving life of the West.

    Just out of curiosity, if you had a choice to be born in a country, which country would you choose? (I doubt I will get an answer - long odds ey!)
    A Scandinavian country. Taxes are very high, but you get amazing services. Great standard of living and good international relations for the most part.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    “NHS is not free, it comes out of the tax payers pocket.”

    Yes duh, sky is blue.

    Where do you think government is going to get the money to fund the NHS? Of course the tax revenue.

    The point is that you are getting something good and functional in return of your money. The NHS is not perfect, but it still a system that works and is far, far better than the healthcare in Pakistan.

    You feel that you deserve more than what you get, but you are still getting a lot more than the people of Pakistan.

    That is why your standard of living is considerably higher, and that is why you will come up with a million excuses if I ask you to come back to Pakistan, the country you proclaim to love and defend over the Internet.

    If you think you are not getting your money’s worth in the UK and people in Pakistan are not getting a worse deal, you are more than welcome to return to Pakistan and enjoy the better services here.

    On a side note, your tax money was also used to fund the WOT and as a result, your money has contributed to the death of millions of innocent Muslims. I pity your conscience.

    The solution of having a clear conscience and to enjoy a better standard of living is to come back to Pakistan.

    We are also on the brink of establishing a Madinah welfare state under the watchful eye of Khalifa Imran Khan Niazi. So what are you waiting for? Book your flight now.
    Looks like a reply from someone who can't come up with a better response after being cornered.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    So to summarize, you would not move to the West given the life of a mule (this point I will actually agree as life in the West is overrated), but strikeout the West in favour of a comfortable life in Pakistan? Doesn't make sense given your feelings towards Pakistan!

    I suppose now you realize why expats build property in Pakistan etc send money to their families in Pakistan etc, because you are not the only Pakistani - unfortunate one at that - who sees how life in Pakistan is actually superior to the ground-hog debt serving life of the West.

    Just out of curiosity, if you had a choice to be born in a country, which country would you choose? (I doubt I will get an answer - long odds ey!)
    I have no issues with expats sending money to their lives. I would have done the same. However, please donít claim that it benefits the economy because that is not your intention. If expats really cared for the country, they would have done a lot more for the country.

    The standard of living in Pakistan is dirt poor, but not if you are financially well-off. However, most of us are not so fortunate.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    ďNHS is not free, it comes out of the tax payers pocket.Ē

    Yes duh, sky is blue.

    Where do you think government is going to get the money to fund the NHS? Of course the tax revenue.

    The point is that you are getting something good and functional in return of your money. The NHS is not perfect, but it still a system that works and is far, far better than the healthcare in Pakistan.

    You feel that you deserve more than what you get, but you are still getting a lot more than the people of Pakistan.

    That is why your standard of living is considerably higher, and that is why you will come up with a million excuses if I ask you to come back to Pakistan, the country you proclaim to love and defend over the Internet.

    If you think you are not getting your moneyís worth in the UK and people in Pakistan are not getting a worse deal, you are more than welcome to return to Pakistan and enjoy the better services here.

    On a side note, your tax money was also used to fund the WOT and as a result, your money has contributed to the death of millions of innocent Muslims. I pity your conscience.

    The solution of having a clear conscience and to enjoy a better standard of living is to come back to Pakistan.

    We are also on the brink of establishing a Madinah welfare state under the watchful eye of Khalifa Imran Khan Niazi. So what are you waiting for? Book your flight now.
    A minute ago you wouldn't swap your comfortable life of Pakistan with a Western life, now you come out the spiel above. Normal services have resumed I see.

    I was merely pointing out that if a tax system in Pakistan is implemented correctly, and fairly, then Pakistanis can also enjoy state services, but guess what, as in Pakistan, if I want private health care, or a private pension, or a private life insurance - I have to pay for it from my taxed earnings in the UK! So your point of comparing services in the UK is utterly moot and based on ignorance.

    You are mistaken if you believe the standard of living in the UK is better than in Pakistan. I do not feel I deserve more in the UK at all.

    By the way, I have lived both in Pakistan and the UK - the joys of dual nationality! So park it with your misguided assumptions. May I remind you, you are the one who is unfortunate of being a Pakistani, so why don't you leave Pakistan if you have such a problem with Pakistan? What's the matter? Got to work for a living instead of collecting brown envelopes?
    Last edited by Technics 1210; 13th June 2019 at 20:29.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Typical Pakistani attitude, demands first world benefits from the govt without having to file and pay taxes.
    What first class benefits? Public schools are a joke. No decent government hospitals. Poor infrastructure. The less spoken about the government organizations the better.
    No salaried person in Pakistan with a half decent salary benefits from government facilities. The government has murdered us with the new taxation laws.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    Looks like a reply from someone who can't come up with a better response after being cornered.
    On the contrary, I touched a sensitive topic. Looking forward to a response full of deflections. You have already shown him the way though.
    Last edited by Mamoon; 13th June 2019 at 20:33.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyoptica View Post
    What first class benefits? Public schools are a joke. No decent government hospitals. Poor infrastructure. The less spoken about the government organizations the better.
    No salaried person in Pakistan with a half decent salary benefits from government facilities. The government has murdered us with the new taxation laws.
    Why is it a joke?

    where were you when the entities were turning government run facilities in to a joke?

    And how do you bring about the changes?

    A sensible answer would be, we will pay our share of tax and then ask government to provide facilities.

    Most sound like, provide service but we refuse to pay tax.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I have no issues with expats sending money to their lives. I would have done the same. However, please don’t claim that it benefits the economy because that is not your intention. If expats really cared for the country, they would have done a lot more for the country.

    The standard of living in Pakistan is dirt poor, but not if you are financially well-off. However, most of us are not so fortunate.
    Are you for real? If you have money then the standard of living is high is high in ANY country you decide to live in. Want to see the standard of living in the UK for those who are not financially well off? You would be shocked.

    You come out with such nonsensical tautological arguments it is just unbelievable!

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    On the contrary, a touched a sensitive topic. Looking forward to a response full of deflections. You have already shown him the way though.
    Deflection?

    You are the queen of deflection whenever you are cornered.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    A Scandinavian country. Taxes are very high, but you get amazing services. Great standard of living and good international relations for the most part.
    Then why don't you move there? Norway will welcome you in arms, Denmark, Sweden, Finland too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    On the contrary, I touched a sensitive topic. Looking forward to a response full of deflections. You have already shown him the way though.
    No deflection- we take pride in our jobs, you dont. You talk crap about change and criticise others but the likes of you are the problem. You are the shirkers, the lazy guys that feel entitled, whilst they look down on their fellow Citizens.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Are you for real? If you have money then the standard of living is high is high in ANY country you decide to live in. Want to see the standard of living in the UK for those who are not financially well off? You would be shocked.

    You come out with such nonsensical tautological arguments it is just unbelievable!
    Letís define a high standard of living. I am sure it is subjective to an extent, but because the several commonalities, we can generalize. Feel free to add to it if you want.

    - quality education for your children
    - quality healthcare
    - a house in a decent, safe locality
    - financial security (insurance etc.)
    - a nice car
    - good quality clothing, gadgets etc.
    - good quality food
    - 24/7 access to electricity
    - fast internet
    - HD tv subscription
    - opportunity to travel for holidays

    I might be missing a few, but if you have these things in your life, you qualify for a high standard of living.

    In Pakistan, as a rough estimate, if you want to enjoy such a lifestyle, you need a net worth of a few crore rupees and a monthly income of around 5 lakhs.

    What percentage of the 200 million people in Pakistan fall in this bracket?

    Secondly, what percentage of people in the UK have access to these services compared to Pakistan?

    Based on these facts, on what basis are you claiming that the standard of living in the UK is not higher than the standard of living in Pakistan?

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Then why don't you move there? Norway will welcome you in arms, Denmark, Sweden, Finland too!
    I donít want to do. Fortunately, I have the means to live a good life in Pakistan. However, that doesnít mean that I live in a bubble and I am oblivious to the plight of the underprivileged.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Let’s define a high standard of living. I am sure it is subjective to an extent, but because the several commonalities, we can generalize. Feel free to add to it if you want.

    - quality education for your children
    - quality healthcare
    - a house in a decent, safe locality
    - financial security (insurance etc.)
    - a nice car
    - good quality clothing, gadgets etc.
    - good quality food
    - 24/7 access to electricity
    - fast internet
    - HD tv subscription
    - opportunity to travel for holidays

    I might be missing a few, but if you have these things in your life, you qualify for a high standard of living.

    In Pakistan, as a rough estimate, if you want to enjoy such a lifestyle, you need a net worth of a few crore rupees and a monthly income of around 5 lakhs.

    What percentage of the 200 million people in Pakistan fall in this bracket?

    Secondly, what percentage of people in the UK have access to these services compared to Pakistan?

    Based on these facts, on what basis are you claiming that the standard of living in the UK is not higher than the standard of living in Pakistan?
    You really have distorted understanding of the west despite claiming to have lived in western countries.

    Either you did not mingle with less fortunate ones or you just never mingle with people from outside of your fortunate group of friends.

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    I really am inclined to believe @Mamoon doesn't realize what he is posting.

    In this very thread he described the life of a person in the Western world as a mule. Then says he would prefer to be born in Scandinavia because the standard of life and state services are high, forgetting he is referring to the West and people in Scandinavia also work like mules. States the obvious that the lifestyle of poor people is, wait for this, low, and the lifestyle of rich people, is wait for this, high!

    He says expats should move to Pakistan if they love Pakistan so much, then why doesn't he leave Pakistan if he hates Pakistan so much?

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Let’s define a high standard of living. I am sure it is subjective to an extent, but because the several commonalities, we can generalize. Feel free to add to it if you want.

    - quality education for your children
    - quality healthcare
    - a house in a decent, safe locality
    - financial security (insurance etc.)
    - a nice car
    - good quality clothing, gadgets etc.
    - good quality food
    - 24/7 access to electricity
    - fast internet
    - HD tv subscription
    - opportunity to travel for holidays

    I might be missing a few, but if you have these things in your life, you qualify for a high standard of living.

    In Pakistan, as a rough estimate, if you want to enjoy such a lifestyle, you need a net worth of a few crore rupees and a monthly income of around 5 lakhs.

    What percentage of the 200 million people in Pakistan fall in this bracket?

    Secondly, what percentage of people in the UK have access to these services compared to Pakistan?

    Based on these facts, on what basis are you claiming that the standard of living in the UK is not higher than the standard of living in Pakistan?
    Most of the list does depend on how much one earns because not a single line item above is guaranteed in the UK. I promise you this. Did you know that the UK has one of the worst internet networks in all of the Western world for an example?

    Quality education? You have to pay for it. It is not free. Quality healthcare? Have a read on how long patients have to wait to see a doctor on the NHS. A house? You are having a laugh. The houses in the UK are average and small compared to Pakistan. Build quality in the UK is rubbish compared to Pakistan. A house in a safe area? No guarantee. Moreover, people who have a mortgage will be paying off debt till the day they die!

    Quality food? Quality clothing? There has been a boom in lower than average quality food and clothing in the UK! Pound shops, Lidl markets etc - these businesses are booming because the average UK resident is skint! Life insurance? Depends on your job, but it is ridciulous!

    What you seem to be forgetting is that life in the UK is based on one thing - CREDIT. The system i nthe UK borrows from the future to pay for the present. Give a man credit, then consumer spending goes up, giving the impression the economy is healthy!

    By the way, you talk of 24/7 electricity, you are wrong. Only yesterday, water supply was shutdown due to a single point of failure. Almost all of Western London was without water! Electricity? Same thing, we lose electricity supply too, albeit not as often as in Pakistan!

    There is no guarantee in the UK. You have to work for it! Go read up on the number of people who are sleeping on the streets of London!

    I consider a life without debt as good quality life. In the UK, this is not happening - unless one is loaded with cash! And if you have cash in Pakistan, life is comfortable! By your own words!

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    You really have distorted understanding of the west despite claiming to have lived in western countries.

    Either you did not mingle with less fortunate ones or you just never mingle with people from outside of your fortunate group of friends.
    The fact he mentions HD TV subscription as a measurement of high quality life tells me his judgement is based on a few holidays in the West. He has no idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahdi View Post
    I understand your frustration and we are kind of in the same boat but I will ask of you what I have asked others my other frustrated salaried friends, why didn't you see this coming? It was clear as day this was going to happen.

    Also this is hardly new. The minimum taxable income used to be RS 400,000 but was raised to 1.2 million just a couple of years back. Now they have made it 600,000.

    Everytime there has been a difficult economic situation the salaried class has suffered. We are easy targets basically.

    Increasing the tax net in Pakistan needs investment and time. Neither of which the government has.

    And the salaried class gets screwed all over the world. The system is rigged, welcome to Capitalism! When the economy and market is bad the working class suffers first, when the economy and market does well the working class benefits last.
    +1

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I don’t want to do. Fortunately, I have the means to live a good life in Pakistan. However, that doesn’t mean that I live in a bubble and I am oblivious to the plight of the underprivileged.
    So you believe you are unfortunate to be a Pakistani, but fortunate to have the means to live a good life in Pakistan.

    Unreal.


  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyoptica View Post
    What first class benefits? Public schools are a joke. No decent government hospitals. Poor infrastructure. The less spoken about the government organizations the better.
    No salaried person in Pakistan with a half decent salary benefits from government facilities. The government has murdered us with the new taxation laws.
    Well whats the excuse now that a PTI Govt is in charge in comparison to the PPP and PML-N? Why no trust on IK with your tax money? Taxation is the right of the govt, granted they need to ruthlessly go after business owners and undocumented segments of society but 1% of the population filing taxes is riddiculous

  42. #122
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    In fact i need to add that Pakistani's in the West work a lot harder in comparison to home. I know of a lot of well established Pakistani's in the West who work from morning till night i.e 9-10 pm and barely have enough time to really enjoy their lives. And the Weekends are spend on kids activities, household chores, family meetings.

    I would add the Middle Class, Upper Middle Class in Pakistan enjoy a more luxurious life compared to the West.

  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    In fact i need to add that Pakistani's in the West work a lot harder in comparison to home. I know of a lot of well established Pakistani's in the West who work from morning till night i.e 9-10 pm and barely have enough time to really enjoy their lives. And the Weekends are spend on kids activities, household chores, family meetings.

    I would add the Middle Class, Upper Middle Class in Pakistan enjoy a more luxurious life compared to the West.
    Everytime I go to Pak on vacation I find it astonishing that places to eat and chai khanas, shisha corners are open till very late at night on a weekday and they are jam packed. This is unheard of in the west where the city streets turn into ghost towns by 9pm on a weeknight.


    The Upper Middle and Elite Class have a strangle hold on the Pakistani economy and I for one want them taxed to the max. They are concerned that their next iphone or next Audi is going to be expensive while majority of Pakistanis are struggling to put food on the table twice a day.
    Last edited by Syed1; 13th June 2019 at 21:28.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Everytime I go to Pak on vacation I find it astonishing that places to eat and chai khanas, shisha corners are open till very late at night on a weekday and they are jam packed. This is unheard of in the west where the city streets turn into ghost towns by 9pm on a weeknight.


    The Upper Middle and Elite Class have a strangle hold on the Pakistani economy and I for one want them taxed to the max. They are concerned that their next iphone or next Audi is going to be expensive while majority of Pakistanis are struggling to put food on the table twice a day.
    I sympathize with the salaried class. Their taxes get deducted from source. However its the sole proprietors, self employed, contractors, business men who the govt needs to be going after

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Most of the list does depend on how much one earns because not a single line item above is guaranteed in the UK.
    Nothing is guaranteed anywhere. However, the percentage of people who can afford a high standard of living in the UK is significantly higher than the percentage of people who can afford a high standard of living in the Pakistan. Why is this simple point so hard to comprehend?

    I promise you this. Did you know that the UK has one of the worst internet networks in all of the Western world for an example?
    If you want to know what a terrible internet network is like, come to Pakistan and use PTCL. On itís good best day, it is quick as a tortoise, and it breaks down when it rains. Considering how often it rains in the UK, if PTCL was the ISP in the UK, you wonít have Internet at all.

    However, you can have quality Internet in the UK if you are ready to spend the money. Similarly, you can get quality internet in Pakistan if you are ready to spend the money.

    For example, my internet connection costs 7,000 rupees per month. A person who earns 50k a month and has a family to feed cannot afford to spend 7,000 on Internet, so he will settle for the low quality PTCL Internet.

    Again, the percentage of people who can afford a high quality internet in the UK is greater than the percentage of people who can afford a high quality internet in Pakistan.

    [b]Quality education? You have to pay for it. It is not free. Quality healthcare? Have a read on how long patients have to wait to see a doctor on the NHS. [/quote]

    Public schooling is awful in pakistan, and private schooling is super expensive. Again, only a small portion of the population can afford private schooling. Compared to Pakistan, the public schooling system in the UK is infinitely superior.

    Similarly, public hospitals are in dreadful condition. If I share the pictures of my work environment, you will probably throw up. The hospitals in the UK are in far better condition and the system is far more functional.

    I know you are delusional, but I didnít think that even you would be capable of arguing that the healthcare in Pakistan is compared to the healthcare in the UK.

    A house? You are having a laugh. The houses in the UK are average and small compared to Pakistan. Build quality in the UK is rubbish compared to Pakistan. A house in a safe area? No guarantee. Moreover, people who have a mortgage will be paying off debt till the day they die!
    Yes, please let me know when your ceiling falls on your head. What is the guarantee that you will be able to live in Pakistan in a safe area? Do you even realize that there is no worth of human life in this country?

    Quality food? Quality clothing? There has been a boom in lower than average quality food and clothing in the UK! Pound shops, Lidl markets etc - these businesses are booming because the average UK resident is skint! Life insurance? Depends on your job, but it is ridciulous!
    You keep ignoring the key point. What is the percentage of people in the UK who can afford quality food and quality clothing compared to the percentage of people who can afford it in Pakistan?

    What you seem to be forgetting is that life in the UK is based on one thing - CREDIT. The system i nthe UK borrows from the future to pay for the present. Give a man credit, then consumer spending goes up, giving the impression the economy is healthy!
    We are not talking about the economic system; we are talking about the standard of living. There is no proper credit market in Pakistan because we are a poor country.

    By the way, you talk of 24/7 electricity, you are wrong. Only yesterday, water supply was shutdown due to a single point of failure. Almost all of Western London was without water! Electricity? Same thing, we lose electricity supply too, albeit not as often as in Pakistan!
    You answered it yourself. Power shortage is far more common in Pakistan. Every Sunday, there is no electricity in my area for about 3-4 hours in the morning, and we have to use a generator. I live in an expensive area, so the power cuts are less.

    People living in less privileged areas get power cuts on daily basis, and they cannot afford generators either. Yet, you have the nerve to argue that the standard of living in the UK is not higher than Pakistan.

    There is no guarantee in the UK. You have to work for it! Go read up on the number of people who are sleeping on the streets of London!
    And what is the percentage of people who are sleeping on the streets in Pakistan?

    I consider a life without debt as good quality life. In the UK, this is not happening - unless one is loaded with cash! And if you have cash in Pakistan, life is comfortable! By your own words!
    The quality of life in Pakistan is comfortable only for the rich, and they are in the minority. A middle class as well as a lower class person in the UK enjoys a much better lifestyle in UK than Pakistan.

    My uncle lives in Isle of Man. His gardener drives a SUV. Find a single gardener in Pakistan who can afford one?

    If you think that the standard of living is better in Pakistan and you consider life without debt a good life, why donít you come back to Pakistan?

  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The fact he mentions HD TV subscription as a measurement of high quality life tells me his judgement is based on a few holidays in the West. He has no idea.
    The fact that you think that HD TV subscription and holidaying overseas is not a measure of high standard of living in Pakistan, you have zero idea of life in Pakistan. I knew that already, but you are only exposing yourself further.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    So you believe you are unfortunate to be a Pakistani, but fortunate to have the means to live a good life in Pakistan.

    Unreal.
    Yes. I am unfortunate to be born in Pakistan, but I am more fortunate than the people who were not only born in Pakistan, but are also poor.

    I can only pity their bad luck.

  48. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I really am inclined to believe @Mamoon doesn't realize what he is posting.

    In this very thread he described the life of a person in the Western world as a mule. Then says he would prefer to be born in Scandinavia because the standard of life and state services are high, forgetting he is referring to the West and people in Scandinavia also work like mules. States the obvious that the lifestyle of poor people is, wait for this, low, and the lifestyle of rich people, is wait for this, high!

    He says expats should move to Pakistan if they love Pakistan so much, then why doesn't he leave Pakistan if he hates Pakistan so much?
    The biggest issue in Pakistan above everything else, is that there is no value for life, and this is something money canít buy. For example, I could be driving on the road, and a bomb blast might kill me.

    Again, yes it can happen anywhere, but what are the chances of terrorism taking place in Pakistan compared to the Scandinavian countries?

    I also work in dreadful conditions and have to interact with people with despicable mentality, something that we get a glimpse of on PP.

    I would happily trade less working hours for live security and better environment. I donít want to leave because I have my roots here, my family, but I wish my roots and my family were Scandinavian too.

  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    You really have distorted understanding of the west despite claiming to have lived in western countries.

    Either you did not mingle with less fortunate ones or you just never mingle with people from outside of your fortunate group of friends.
    No word salad please. Make a proper argument if you can.

  50. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No word salad please. Make a proper argument if you can.
    One would if you stop deflecting when youíre cornered.

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    I cant believe how people are trivializing the problems faced by an average Pakistani by comparing them with developed countries. Most people here are from relatively well-off families and it is reflected in the comments. 2000rs monthly tax on 50,000 income is by no means an insignificant amount. Yes, for some including me it is not a big amount. When I started my first job I fell in this bracket and honestly I don’t even remember how much tax was deducted from my salary. But that is because I had graduated from a good university, was single and living in my parent’s house so my expenses were practically zero.

    But can anyone prepare the rough budget of a middle-aged person with two kids and a wife who earns 50,000rs a month? For people living abroad that is a monthly income of ~$300 for a family of 4. And yes the living costs in Pakistan are lower but not proportionately so. Do you really think this person spends money on iphones? And remember this person pays extra for basic amenities like water, education and healthcare because the govt doesn’t guarantees these things.

    I am not blaming IK or the current govt for any of this but please don’t insult the underprivileged by downplaying their problems and comparing them with developed countries. We are talking about a country where the minimum wage was just set at around $100 a month and you want them to be taxed at the same rate as someone living in the UK or Canada?

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin Chacha View Post
    I cant believe how people are trivializing the problems faced by an average Pakistani by comparing them with developed countries. Most people here are from relatively well-off families and it is reflected in the comments. 2000rs monthly tax on 50,000 income is by no means an insignificant amount. Yes, for some including me it is not a big amount. When I started my first job I fell in this bracket and honestly I donít even remember how much tax was deducted from my salary. But that is because I had graduated from a good university, was single and living in my parentís house so my expenses were practically zero.

    But can anyone prepare the rough budget of a middle-aged person with two kids and a wife who earns 50,000rs a month? For people living abroad that is a monthly income of ~$300 for a family of 4. And yes the living costs in Pakistan are lower but not proportionately so. Do you really think this person spends money on iphones? And remember this person pays extra for basic amenities like water, education and healthcare because the govt doesnít guarantees these things.

    I am not blaming IK or the current govt for any of this but please donít insult the underprivileged by downplaying their problems and comparing them with developed countries. We are talking about a country where the minimum wage was just set at around $100 a month and you want them to be taxed at the same rate as someone living in the UK or Canada?
    You are reading it wrong.

    What most people are asking what are the other options?

    Pakistan's tax structure need to be rebuild, which require years.

    Pakistan need to expand its tax net.

    Pakistan has two options, either go through the struggle now to improve the life of your kids or have your kids go through and face worse conditions than it is now.

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No word salad please. Make a proper argument if you can.
    The issue with you is that you argue for the sake of argument.

    You criticize for the sake of the criticism.

    When you are cornered on your bull-crap, you deflect and run away.

    I haven't seen a single valid argument or solution (realistic) coming from you to solve any Pakistan's issue other than moaning about how other countries are better.

    And, NO!, Zardari and NS are not the solution to solve Pakistan's issue.

  54. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Nothing is guaranteed anywhere. However, the percentage of people who can afford a high standard of living in the UK is significantly higher than the percentage of people who can afford a high standard of living in the Pakistan. Why is this simple point so hard to comprehend?
    This is semantics and another shot at the point from your perspective. You have once again undermined your argument all by yourself. You never started off this topic by claiming nothing is guaranteed, or by talking percentages, or services must be paid for, because you thought that services such as the NHS are free in the UK and now that you got schooled, you are just changing the tune.

    If you really want to talk percentages, Pakistan has a population over 3 times the size of the UK. Pakistan’s GDP to debt ratio is smaller than the UK. The standard of living in the UK is borrowed from the future, i.e, credit/debt.

    You are simply stating a tautological point that rich people can afford a higher standard of living. What an eye opener!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    If you want to know what a terrible internet network is like, come to Pakistan and use PTCL. On it’s good best day, it is quick as a tortoise, and it breaks down when it rains. Considering how often it rains in the UK, if PTCL was the ISP in the UK, you won’t have Internet at all.
    I work in the Telecoms industry and I can tell you that the only places in the UK which have acceptable internet access and performance are main cities, because the further you are from the telephone exchange, the greater the resistance, and the lower the synch bandwidth. Distance is proportional to latency, and latency is inversely proportional to performance. ADSL is still common in the UK, and requires a PSTN line. Think about this for a moment. This is how backward internet connectivity is in the UK. FTTP – Fibre to the premises – is a luxury in the UK and mostly available in major cities.

    You must live out in the sticks of Pakistan. I have just had fibre installed in my home in Karachi, 30M synchronous and works like a charm. I play online games with my family in Pakistan and rarely have issues unless on the weekends when contention ratio is higher (this means more people shared the same bandwidth).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    However, you can have quality Internet in the UK if you are ready to spend the money. Similarly, you can get quality internet in Pakistan if you are ready to spend the money.

    For example, my internet connection costs 7,000 rupees per month. A person who earns 50k a month and has a family to feed cannot afford to spend 7,000 on Internet, so he will settle for the low quality PTCL Internet.
    Another tautological point. Not only this, you have again undermined your argument above by claiming you can get quality internet access in Pakistan if you are ready to spend the money. Well guess what champ, the same applies to the UK. Of course if you have money you can buy an internet with a higher bandwidth. Though your premise is that every property in the UK has a decent Internet connection. You are woefully wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Again, the percentage of people who can afford a high quality internet in the UK is greater than the percentage of people who can afford a high quality internet in Pakistan.
    Again, you are mistaken. You are confusing quality with availability. I can guarantee you that fibre to the premises in Pakistan will reach more people before the UK does. You know why? In the UK to lay the fibre the company must dig up the roads. It is not happening in rural areas in the UK, but in Pakistan, fibre is extended underground, or overhead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Public schooling is awful in pakistan, and private schooling is super expensive. Again, only a small portion of the population can afford private schooling. Compared to Pakistan, the public schooling system in the UK is infinitely superior.
    More tautology. Public schooling is pants in the UK, private schooling is also pants, but expensive in the UK. Do you know what the main difference is between Public and Private schooling in the UK? The number of students per teacher. They learn from the same syllabus. The difference? A teacher has more time for a student, but you must pay for the privilege in the UK, just as you would elsewhere.

    Let me tell you something else. In Pakistan, if a student fails a year, they do not progress, in the UK, students progress no matter what. There is no incentive to better yourself in schools. Not only this, the method of teaching in Pakistan is superior to that of the UK. For example, in Pakistan, they teach your grammar in English lessons unlike in the UK where you are forced to read pointless novels.

    In Pakistan they teach you mathematics without the need of a calculator. All the formulas are memorised, all relationships such as Sine, Cosine and Tangents are memorised. As for university, in the UK you got to pay each year, and once your degree is complete, you are saddled with a £30000 debt.

    This is not all, the UK grades in pre university schooling are a joke. 70% of an exam, is considered an A. You read that right, 70%. In Pakistan 70% is one step above a fail. This is how the UK education standards bolster the pass rate each year, by lowering the threshold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Similarly, public hospitals are in dreadful condition. If I share the pictures of my work environment, you will probably throw up. The hospitals in the UK are in far better condition and the system is far more functional.
    Do you know how many hospitals are closing in the UK each year? Just google the conditions of UK hospitals to get an idea of the state of health services. The hospitals you refer to are the top dog hospitals in the main cities, in particular London. Outside London, completely different story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post

    I know you are delusional, but I didn’t think that even you would be capable of arguing that the healthcare in Pakistan is compared to the healthcare in the UK.
    I might be delusional, but not a fraud. You are not a doctor. Also at no point did I compare the healthcare between UK and Pakistan, what I did mention is that in both countries you have to pay for private health care. Why don’t you compare Public and Private healthcare in the UK? It is a world of difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Yes, please let me know when your ceiling falls on your head. What is the guarantee that you will be able to live in Pakistan in a safe area? Do you even realize that there is no worth of human life in this country?
    What? My point was there is no guarantee you will live in a safe area in the UK, you are saying the same for Pakistan. Proving my point. I will not take your word for the value of human life in Pakistan. If you have a problem, you can migrate next door to India to realise what human life really means, where animals have more rights than humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You keep ignoring the key point. What is the percentage of people in the UK who can afford quality food and quality clothing compared to the percentage of people who can afford it in Pakistan?
    What do you mean keep ignoring? This is a new point you decided to muster up because you had your backside handed to you on a plate. Any how this point has been answered above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    We are not talking about the economic system; we are talking about the standard of living. There is no proper credit market in Pakistan because we are a poor country.
    You are such a melt. The economic system is precisely what determines the standard of living. You already incorrectly assumed that NHS etc are free services in the UK, but were correctly educated when you learned that an efficient tax system within an economy allows for services.

    As for a credit market, stop right there. The UK has a higher debt to GDP ratio compared to Pakistan. The UK is insolvent, its tax receipts fall short of outgoings, the interest on the national debt being one, hence the deficit – net borrowing each month – is just more debt on existing debt. UK has more national debt than Pakistan. The UK is a services industry, hardly anything is manufactured in the UK.

    You really are a bell end though. The UK was poor after WW2. The only reason it could borrow money from markets over the years is Bretton Woods, GMT time zone., and low Bond Yields. Arbitrage trading? Heard of it? The reason why London is a financial hub is because it sits bang in the middle of the Eastern and Western markets with respect to timezones. Moreover, after the 2008 crash, the yields on UK bonds were suppressed through Quantative Easing. Money created out of thin air which not only surpasses bond yields, but also devalued the GBP.

    Pakistan has far greater resources than the UK, far greater market based on population, and sits isn't a strategic position through the emerging corridor. Nothing to do with Pakistan being poor you daft tool .

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You answered it yourself. Power shortage is far more common in Pakistan. Every Sunday, there is no electricity in my area for about 3-4 hours in the morning, and we have to use a generator. I live in an expensive area, so the power cuts are less.

    People living in less privileged areas get power cuts on daily basis, and they cannot afford generators either. Yet, you have the nerve to argue that the standard of living in the UK is not higher than Pakistan.
    Once again undermining your argument. You have the money therefore power cuts are less for you! You have the money, can by generators.
    I have the nerve because I lived in both countries, unlike you who thinks he can speak for the UK based on a trip to Madam Tussaud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The quality of life in Pakistan is comfortable only for the rich, and they are in the minority. A middle class as well as a lower class person in the UK enjoys a much better lifestyle in UK than Pakistan.
    There that melt again. Quality of life is always conformable for the rich no matter which country you live in. You can trumpet all about quality of lifestyle, but quality is subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post

    My uncle lives in Isle of Man. His gardener drives a SUV. Find a single gardener in Pakistan who can afford one?
    You proper mong. The middle class in Pakistan can afford a cook, driver, clearner etc. These are luxuries for the middle class in the UK. Also Isle of Man? No wonder you got low standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post

    If you think that the standard of living is better in Pakistan and you consider life without debt a good life, why don’t you come back to Pakistan?
    How do you know I am not?

    Here’s the thing. Your measurement of quality is based on materialism. Cars, House, Money in the bank, and that laughable aspect of life you call, art.

    None of this matters, because the difference between you and I is that I measure the quality of life by the quality of my sleep every night. Person who sleeps at ease at night is the winner of this world, whereas you measure quality based on your internet connection.

    You are many things, but you are not a patriot, so stop acting like one. You attack, belittle, abuse, insult Pakistan at every juncture and opportunity. Whether it is from Politics, to Cricket, or just using the opportunity to criticize Imran Khan when saying Eid Mubarek!

    You are the biggest fraud I have ever come across. On one hand you state you are unfortunate to be Pakistani, then on the other hand would not give up your Pakistani lifestyle (clearly funded by corruption) for any lifestyle in the world. Go immigrate to India if you hate Pakistan so much.

    You consider being a Pakistani as a misfortune and regret every minute of it, well, I consider myself fortunate that I was not born as someone like you and am proud to be of Pakistan origin! Whether Expats Pakistanis, or indigenous, they are more patriotic than the scam artist you are.

    This is the value you bring to the forums, you make me realise that life could be much worse if I were in your shoes; chronic depression, persistent insecurities, and not a shred of happiness or optimism - I thank Allah I was not born in your shoes. Simply put, you serve as a reminder that life could be worse, you could be Mamoon.

    Now get back to your meds.
    Last edited by Technics 1210; 13th June 2019 at 23:56.

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Everytime I go to Pak on vacation I find it astonishing that places to eat and chai khanas, shisha corners are open till very late at night on a weekday and they are jam packed. This is unheard of in the west where the city streets turn into ghost towns by 9pm on a weeknight.


    The Upper Middle and Elite Class have a strangle hold on the Pakistani economy and I for one want them taxed to the max. They are concerned that their next iphone or next Audi is going to be expensive while majority of Pakistanis are struggling to put food on the table twice a day.
    +1

    The majority of the economy of Pakistan is undocumented, where as the evidence suggest that the Pakistan middle class have more disposable income compared with the middle class of the UK. I for one cannot afford to go out and eat every night in the UK! I would skint by the 10th day after my pay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    You are reading it wrong.

    What most people are asking what are the other options?

    Pakistan's tax structure need to be rebuild, which require years.

    Pakistan need to expand its tax net.

    Pakistan has two options, either go through the struggle now to improve the life of your kids or have your kids go through and face worse conditions than it is now.
    100%.

  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The biggest issue in Pakistan above everything else, is that there is no value for life, and this is something money can’t buy. For example, I could be driving on the road, and a bomb blast might kill me.

    Again, yes it can happen anywhere, but what are the chances of terrorism taking place in Pakistan compared to the Scandinavian countries?

    I also work in dreadful conditions and have to interact with people with despicable mentality, something that we get a glimpse of on PP.

    I would happily trade less working hours for live security and better environment. I don’t want to leave because I have my roots here, my family, but I wish my roots and my family were Scandinavian too.
    There is more chance of being a victim of gun crime in the USA than terrorism in Pakistan.
    There is more chance of being a victim of rape in India than terrorism in Pakistan.
    There is more chance of being a victim of knife crime in the UK than terrorism in Pakistan.

    Oh you want to be born again in Scandinavia? If quality of life and services was so great in Scandinavia, then how comes the highest suicides rates per capita in the world are in Scandinavia?

    You do not work, you just live off the bank of mum and dad, and are an errand boy when you collect those envelopes.

  58. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    +1

    The majority of the economy of Pakistan is undocumented, where as the evidence suggest that the Pakistan middle class have more disposable income compared with the middle class of the UK. I for one cannot afford to go out and eat every night in the UK! I would skint by the 10th day after my pay!
    The elite fly over to Dubai for shopping.... yeah shopping!!!


    Buhat ayashi lagayi howi hai bhai. We need massive imposition of taxes on the elite class.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The elite fly over to Dubai for shopping.... yeah shopping!!!


    Buhat ayashi lagayi howi hai bhai. We need massive imposition of taxes on the elite class.
    Haha! Yes indeed the shopping trips to Dubai, and if they cannot find what they are looking for in Dubai, they shop in London! Airlines love Pakistan for this reason! Always guaranteed a packed flight!

    Pakistan is one of the few nations in the world, in fact, the only nation in the world, where the public has more money than the government. Pakistan is not poor, it's just the wealth sits with the public who protect their cash from the government.

    Time of an absolute raid on private wealth through relentless taxation!

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The elite fly over to Dubai for shopping.... yeah shopping!!!


    Buhat ayashi lagayi howi hai bhai. We need massive imposition of taxes on the elite class.
    I agree with this. Majority of the Pakistani elite frustrate me a lot as well. I know a very rich woman who owns a hair salon here in Karachi and the way she treats her workers is despicable to say the least. When you grow up with so many of the less fortunate around you, unfortunately you become jaded. I myself am a victim of this however because of my parents, I try to do the best I can for a lot of these people which unfortunately isnít enough
    Last edited by aliasad1998; 14th June 2019 at 01:05.


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

  61. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Haha! Yes indeed the shopping trips to Dubai, and if they cannot find what they are looking for in Dubai, they shop in London! Airlines love Pakistan for this reason! Always guaranteed a packed flight!

    Pakistan is one of the few nations in the world, in fact, the only nation in the world, where the public has more money than the government. Pakistan is not poor, it's just the wealth sits with the public who protect their cash from the government.

    Time of an absolute raid on private wealth through relentless taxation!
    Compare the philanthrophy rates with the tax revenues in Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I provided the link to the 0.57% figure in my post which you have quoted, which represents approx 800000 people.

    So what you are trying to tell me is that less that 800000 are taxed at source. What about the others who are working representing the middle class? See what I am getting at?

    I get your complaint about being squeezed (just like any other middle class), but you are being squeezed harder because of decades of tax avoidance/evasion in Pakistan.

    Indigenous Pakistanis love to criticize expats etc, but indigenous Pakistanis are to blame for they have been voting corrupt dynasties into power for decades. Now that the brown envelopes have stopped, champions of Pakistan are complaining about Imran Khan who is at the very least, trying to sort something out! Change doesn't happen over night!
    Only salaried class is taxed at source and makes up half of all active taxpayers in the country.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/numbe...ten-years-fbr/

    The other taxpayers are most probably corporates and other professionals. The remaining population either doesn't bother paying taxes or else uses the countless loopholes and shortcomings in tax laws to pay minimal taxes. Moreover there is a massive disparity between taxes on different sources of income. Most rich landowners don't even pay half of what a mid level corporate executive pays because the former conceals most of his income while the latter is taxed at source.

    As a simple illustration let's consider the case of IK himself. He paid a total of 103,763 in taxes on an income of 4,776,611 in 2017.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1414998

    According to the tax rates in 2017 a salaried individual would have had to pay 810,568 on the same level of income.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/fbr-u...salary-income/

    If you still think that the salaried class is not paying its due or should be taxed more then I really don't know what to say.

    Imran Khan promised change and one of the things he talked about was broadening the tax base. I understand that these are tough times and everyone has to pay and I don't mind doing it myself but please don't ask me to then blindly say that IK has no other option or that the changes are just if they are not being implemented across the board.

    A lot of people have pointed out that it is politically expedient to charge the salaried class and that is what IK and his team are now doing. But in that case he shouldn't always claim to take moral high ground or talk about riasat-e-madina etc. He is doing what's politically expedient and in that way is no different from his predecessors. At the end of the day, even if we don't want to admit it, all of us know that businesses both large and small (other than large corporates) and agriculture will never be taxed like salary income in this country as the reins of this country are in the hands of those very interests so please stop making it sound as if this budget has done something really radical in terms of taxing the actually rich segments of this society.

  63. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Only salaried class is taxed at source and makes up half of all active taxpayers in the country.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/numbe...ten-years-fbr/

    The other taxpayers are most probably corporates and other professionals. The remaining population either doesn't bother paying taxes or else uses the countless loopholes and shortcomings in tax laws to pay minimal taxes. Moreover there is a massive disparity between taxes on different sources of income. Most rich landowners don't even pay half of what a mid level corporate executive pays because the former conceals most of his income while the latter is taxed at source.

    As a simple illustration let's consider the case of IK himself. He paid a total of 103,763 in taxes on an income of 4,776,611 in 2017.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1414998

    According to the tax rates in 2017 a salaried individual would have had to pay 810,568 on the same level of income.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/fbr-u...salary-income/

    If you still think that the salaried class is not paying its due or should be taxed more then I really don't know what to say.

    Imran Khan promised change and one of the things he talked about was broadening the tax base. I understand that these are tough times and everyone has to pay and I don't mind doing it myself but please don't ask me to then blindly say that IK has no other option or that the changes are just if they are not being implemented across the board.

    A lot of people have pointed out that it is politically expedient to charge the salaried class and that is what IK and his team are now doing. But in that case he shouldn't always claim to take moral high ground or talk about riasat-e-madina etc. He is doing what's politically expedient and in that way is no different from his predecessors. At the end of the day, even if we don't want to admit it, all of us know that businesses both large and small (other than large corporates) and agriculture will never be taxed like salary income in this country as the reins of this country are in the hands of those very interests so please stop making it sound as if this budget has done something really radical in terms of taxing the actually rich segments of this society.
    Not sure why the OP is assuming that PTI is only going after salaried people and not after other people like self employed individuals, business owners, undocumented segments of society, land owners e.t.c. Shabbar Zaidi has been bought in for a reason and if you listen to his interviews the guy knows the reality of the loopholes in the tax structure.

  64. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Most of the list does depend on how much one earns because not a single line item above is guaranteed in the UK. I promise you this. Did you know that the UK has one of the worst internet networks in all of the Western world for an example?

    Quality education? You have to pay for it. It is not free. Quality healthcare? Have a read on how long patients have to wait to see a doctor on the NHS. A house? You are having a laugh. The houses in the UK are average and small compared to Pakistan. Build quality in the UK is rubbish compared to Pakistan. A house in a safe area? No guarantee. Moreover, people who have a mortgage will be paying off debt till the day they die!

    Quality food? Quality clothing? There has been a boom in lower than average quality food and clothing in the UK! Pound shops, Lidl markets etc - these businesses are booming because the average UK resident is skint! Life insurance? Depends on your job, but it is ridciulous!

    What you seem to be forgetting is that life in the UK is based on one thing - CREDIT. The system i nthe UK borrows from the future to pay for the present. Give a man credit, then consumer spending goes up, giving the impression the economy is healthy!

    By the way, you talk of 24/7 electricity, you are wrong. Only yesterday, water supply was shutdown due to a single point of failure. Almost all of Western London was without water! Electricity? Same thing, we lose electricity supply too, albeit not as often as in Pakistan!

    There is no guarantee in the UK. You have to work for it! Go read up on the number of people who are sleeping on the streets of London!

    I consider a life without debt as good quality life. In the UK, this is not happening - unless one is loaded with cash! And if you have cash in Pakistan, life is comfortable! By your own words!
    An amusing list of first world problems. The average per capita income of Pakistan is around 1500 dollars or 125 dollars per month (20,000 pkr as a generous estimate)
    https://www.brecorder.com/2019/06/11...nds-at-1497-3/
    Private schools charge north of 15,000 per child. Universities charge hundreds of thousands per semester. Hospitals don't admit patients until they pay in advance. In a city like Karachi, the cheapest housing even outside the city (and unlike UK there is no reliable public transport system) will be somwhere around a few million rupees. Most people don't have bank accounts and access to credit for housing or transport. Some areas of the city have been experiencing 6 hours of daily load shedding since years. Today some areas experienced up to 15 hours when the temperature was around 42C. There is no water in the city, even in the poshest of localities. Come to Karachi and I will drive you around in the morning to see how many people are sleeping on the roads. Add to it double digit inflation and high unemployment. An average resident of UK cannot even imagine living in the conditions that an average Pakistani lives in.

  65. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Not sure why the OP is assuming that PTI is only going after salaried people and not after other people like self employed individuals, business owners, undocumented segments of society, land owners e.t.c. Shabbar Zaidi has been bought in for a reason and if you listen to his interviews the guy knows the reality of the loopholes in the tax structure.
    Doesn't the example above illustrate that salaried people are already paying their fair share? IK paid 1/8th the tax of a salaried individual in 2017 on his income. I am not saying that PTI is only going after salaried class but just pointing out why the salaried class deserves better treatment and how it is the one which always bears the brunt of other people's dishonesty and incompetence.

  66. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Only salaried class is taxed at source and makes up half of all active taxpayers in the country.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/numbe...ten-years-fbr/

    The other taxpayers are most probably corporates and other professionals. The remaining population either doesn't bother paying taxes or else uses the countless loopholes and shortcomings in tax laws to pay minimal taxes. Moreover there is a massive disparity between taxes on different sources of income. Most rich landowners don't even pay half of what a mid level corporate executive pays because the former conceals most of his income while the latter is taxed at source.

    As a simple illustration let's consider the case of IK himself. He paid a total of 103,763 in taxes on an income of 4,776,611 in 2017.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1414998

    According to the tax rates in 2017 a salaried individual would have had to pay 810,568 on the same level of income.

    http://www.customstoday.com.pk/fbr-u...salary-income/

    If you still think that the salaried class is not paying its due or should be taxed more then I really don't know what to say.

    Imran Khan promised change and one of the things he talked about was broadening the tax base. I understand that these are tough times and everyone has to pay and I don't mind doing it myself but please don't ask me to then blindly say that IK has no other option or that the changes are just if they are not being implemented across the board.

    A lot of people have pointed out that it is politically expedient to charge the salaried class and that is what IK and his team are now doing. But in that case he shouldn't always claim to take moral high ground or talk about riasat-e-madina etc. He is doing what's politically expedient and in that way is no different from his predecessors. At the end of the day, even if we don't want to admit it, all of us know that businesses both large and small (other than large corporates) and agriculture will never be taxed like salary income in this country as the reins of this country are in the hands of those very interests so please stop making it sound as if this budget has done something really radical in terms of taxing the actually rich segments of this society.
    I share your pain, I am a middle class worker too, and if I could have just 1 month tax free per year, it would make a big difference. I have been paying taxes for over 25 years, and I have seen nothing but regression in the UK. Whether it is funding a Sea Eagle missile killing innocent civilians in the ME, to funding the state spongers, to funding a police force that is non existent in the city I live in. I got to suck it up.

    The reality is the middle class are the economy, not just in Pakistan, but in the UK too, in any economy so when taxes go up, the middle class are hit first. At the moment the only demographic IK can tax are those who are on record, documented, with the government, the 0.57%. IK cannot tax someone who is not on record and documented.

    I never once said that salaried workers did not pay taxes, I merely pointed out that if less than 800000 are legible for taxation, then either the middle class of Pakistan is one of the smallest in the world, or the entire salaried middle class in Pakistan is not being taxes. I believe the later.

    Again, change does not happen over night. Headlines make the news overnight, but actual economic change takes time especially after decades of corruption voted by the people of Pakistan. The only way to produce change is at the ballot box, and the irony is when the people of Pakistan voted for corrupt leaders, their votes reaped fruits instantly in the guise of envelopes, and no one complained about change, but now an honest person is in power, change should be instant, hardship is an excuse, taxation is a punishment?

    Time to grow up, if you love Pakistan, then love is sacrifice.

  67. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    An amusing list of first world problems. The average per capita income of Pakistan is around 1500 dollars or 125 dollars per month (20,000 pkr as a generous estimate)
    https://www.brecorder.com/2019/06/11...nds-at-1497-3/
    Private schools charge north of 15,000 per child. Universities charge hundreds of thousands per semester. Hospitals don't admit patients until they pay in advance. In a city like Karachi, the cheapest housing even outside the city (and unlike UK there is no reliable public transport system) will be somwhere around a few million rupees. Most people don't have bank accounts and access to credit for housing or transport. Some areas of the city have been experiencing 6 hours of daily load shedding since years. Today some areas experienced up to 15 hours when the temperature was around 42C. There is no water in the city, even in the poshest of localities. Come to Karachi and I will drive you around in the morning to see how many people are sleeping on the roads. Add to it double digit inflation and high unemployment. An average resident of UK cannot even imagine living in the conditions that an average Pakistani lives in.
    As it has been mentioned, the economy of Pakistan remains undocumented. as a result the GDP per capita/capita income figures are a wild guess. You say most people do not have a bank account in Pakistan? Well this is one of the reasons why taxation is ineffective. What we do know is that the elite do have bank accounts just not in Pakistan. For your information, in the UK, many people have bank accounts, but most do not have £100 in their accounts. What's the point of having an account when payment is in cash? The only benefit is you are on record.

    Come to London and I will give you a tour of West London, and you will think you are in the slums of India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Not sure why the OP is assuming that PTI is only going after salaried people and not after other people like self employed individuals, business owners, undocumented segments of society, land owners e.t.c. Shabbar Zaidi has been bought in for a reason and if you listen to his interviews the guy knows the reality of the loopholes in the tax structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Doesn't the example above illustrate that salaried people are already paying their fair share? IK paid 1/8th the tax of a salaried individual in 2017 on his income. I am not saying that PTI is only going after salaried class but just pointing out why the salaried class deserves better treatment and how it is the one which always bears the brunt of other people's dishonesty and incompetence.
    Just to add if you look at the revenue collection targets the increase in indirect taxes is huge compared to direct income taxes which will disproportionately affect the lower income groups. Not doubting IK's intentions but even the govt knows that it will be hard for them to significantly increase income tax from non salaried classes so they are banking on blanket indirect taxes like sales tax.

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  69. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    As it has been mentioned, the economy of Pakistan remains undocumented. as a result the GDP per capita/capita income figures are a wild guess. You say most people do not have a bank account in Pakistan? Well this is one of the reasons why taxation is ineffective. What we do know is that the elite do have bank accounts just not in Pakistan. For your information, in the UK, many people have bank accounts, but most do not have £100 in their accounts. What's the point of having an account when payment is in cash? The only benefit is you are on record.

    Come to London and I will give you a tour of West London, and you will think you are in the slums of India.
    Haha ok i will also accept that. Perhaps give me an estimate yourself? I provided you the official figure and i doubt the government would want to understate it. Even if i accept your argument there is no way that it is wildly different from the estimate given above. I mentioned the bank account bit as that means that unlike the west most people don't have access to financial services. Only the elite can get a house or car loan in Pakistan. Is that the same in the West? Most things considered necessities in the West are luxuries for more than 99% of Pakistan's population. I am sure West London is bad but come to Karachi and i will take you to Orangi Town. Please don't belittle the problems of the common Pakistani because of your ignorance or your love for a specific leader.

  70. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I share your pain, I am a middle class worker too, and if I could have just 1 month tax free per year, it would make a big difference. I have been paying taxes for over 25 years, and I have seen nothing but regression in the UK. Whether it is funding a Sea Eagle missile killing innocent civilians in the ME, to funding the state spongers, to funding a police force that is non existent in the city I live in. I got to suck it up.

    The reality is the middle class are the economy, not just in Pakistan, but in the UK too, in any economy so when taxes go up, the middle class are hit first. At the moment the only demographic IK can tax are those who are on record, documented, with the government, the 0.57%. IK cannot tax someone who is not on record and documented.

    I never once said that salaried workers did not pay taxes, I merely pointed out that if less than 800000 are legible for taxation, then either the middle class of Pakistan is one of the smallest in the world, or the entire salaried middle class in Pakistan is not being taxes. I believe the later.

    Again, change does not happen over night. Headlines make the news overnight, but actual economic change takes time especially after decades of corruption voted by the people of Pakistan. The only way to produce change is at the ballot box, and the irony is when the people of Pakistan voted for corrupt leaders, their votes reaped fruits instantly in the guise of envelopes, and no one complained about change, but now an honest person is in power, change should be instant, hardship is an excuse, taxation is a punishment?

    Time to grow up, if you love Pakistan, then love is sacrifice.
    Why? Why is he so powerless?
    All the people on this list are documented and on record. Why not also raise their taxes? Why not also tax agricultural income?

    http://download1.fbr.gov.pk/Docs/201...mentarians.pdf

    I know IK can't do it and i have absolutely no problem with that but then he and his worshippers (i am also his supporter but not a worshipper) shouldn't make him out to be a messiah or revolutionary and he himself should not claim to be holier than everyone else.

    I agree that change does not happen overnight, have posted as much on many occasions and also realize the thanklessness of IK's task. But that does not mean that the promise of a better future should steamroll the very people who are actually keeping the economy alive and give amnesties to those who have looted and plundered. I will have absolutely no problem with what IK is doing if he walks his talk or if he stops acting holier than thou and admits that a lot of pragmatic politically expedient decisions are being made by him instead of harping on about making this riasat-e-madina.

    Talking about sacrifice is so easy from atop your moral high horse when you don't have any skin in the game. If you love the country so much and are willing to make sacrifices then why not come back and do your bit for its betterment rather than preaching others?

  71. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin Chacha View Post
    Just to add if you look at the revenue collection targets the increase in indirect taxes is huge compared to direct income taxes which will disproportionately affect the lower income groups. Not doubting IK's intentions but even the govt knows that it will be hard for them to significantly increase income tax from non salaried classes so they are banking on blanket indirect taxes like sales tax.

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    Indeed. The indirect taxes coupled with inflation, devaluation and utility prices will crush lower income groups.

  72. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by amvbfm View Post
    Why? Why is he so powerless?
    All the people on this list are documented and on record. Why not also raise their taxes? Why not also tax agricultural income?

    http://download1.fbr.gov.pk/Docs/201...mentarians.pdf

    I know IK can't do it and i have absolutely no problem with that but then he and his worshippers (i am also his supporter but not a worshipper) shouldn't make him out to be a messiah or revolutionary and he himself should not claim to be holier than everyone else.

    I agree that change does not happen overnight, have posted as much on many occasions and also realize the thanklessness of IK's task. But that does not mean that the promise of a better future should steamroll the very people who are actually keeping the economy alive and give amnesties to those who have looted and plundered. I will have absolutely no problem with what IK is doing if he walks his talk or if he stops acting holier than thou and admits that a lot of pragmatic politically expedient decisions are being made by him instead of harping on about making this riasat-e-madina.

    Talking about sacrifice is so easy from atop your moral high horse when you don't have any skin in the game. If you love the country so much and are willing to make sacrifices then why not come back and do your bit for its betterment rather than preaching others?
    What makes you think I worship IK? Why are you so sensitive? First you moan about your taxes going up, then you say you know IK cannot do anything? If you accept change will take time, then just suck it up and wait. Decades of corruption is going to take a while to overturn, and at least IK is moving in the right direction.

    You also seem to forget that if the majority of the economy is undocumented implementing a tax regime will take time, starting with those on the records, ala, YOU!

    I am not taking the high moral ground, and I do have skin in the game, have made sacrifices, but I do not moan they way you guys are. Learn the difference between a right and a privileged, but just stop crying because no one owes you anything in this world, and in the end if you are not happy with IK, you can always vote for another corrupt leader.

  73. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by shah_1 View Post
    After all the increase in tax collection and there is a decrease in HEC and health budget by half. How can PTI blind supporters support this?

    Bhai pasio toh logao if you are taking our money and spend it on us

    Before they say I'm lying

    https://nation.com.pk/12-Jun-2019/de...-health-budget
    https://nation.com.pk/12-Jun-2019/go...ations-for-hec



    And more cuts
    Budget 2019-20: allocation for education, services reduced by 20.5 percent
    https://fp.brecorder.com/2019/06/20190612485340/
    Will verify later but just saw Hammad posting this in reply to Miftah



    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Will verify later but just saw Hammad posting this in reply to Miftah

    HEC chairman

    Dr Banuri said that owing to the financial crisis, the federal had approved only Rs59 billion for the commission against the demand of Rs103.5 billion.

    “For development budget, HEC had demanded Rs59 billion but the government approved only Rs28 billion,” the HEC chairman said.
    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1991271...rt-programmes/

    28 billion is nothing

  75. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    What makes you think I worship IK? Why are you so sensitive? First you moan about your taxes going up, then you say you know IK cannot do anything? If you accept change will take time, then just suck it up and wait. Decades of corruption is going to take a while to overturn, and at least IK is moving in the right direction.

    You also seem to forget that if the majority of the economy is undocumented implementing a tax regime will take time, starting with those on the records, ala, YOU!

    I am not taking the high moral ground, and I do have skin in the game, have made sacrifices, but I do not moan they way you guys are. Learn the difference between a right and a privileged, but just stop crying because no one owes you anything in this world, and in the end if you are not happy with IK, you can always vote for another corrupt leader.
    Isn't it obvious? You are not willing to accept any criticism against him regardless of its merit. I simply asked why IK paid 103K on an income of 4.7 million when a salaried individual would have paid 800K on the same level of income? Does 103K tax for a person who owns 168 acres of agricultural land sound fair to you when a salaried individual owning no land pays 8 times the amount? I know you will say it was based on the policies of the previous government. What has IK done to rectify it then? Has any tax been imposed on the actual rich classes of this country? On the landowners and the large businessmen? Does proposing such a measure also need decades?

    I am not the only one documented or on record. Did you bother to open the file i shared? Will the people in there see any increase in their taxes (and not just on their salaries because salaries don't really matter to them)?

    I am not moaning or crying, simply pointing out the injustice of it. It is not a personal issue for me, its more about right and wrong - the very reason I voted for IK and not NS or AZ.
    Last edited by amvbfm; 14th June 2019 at 16:20.

  76. #156
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    There is more chance of being a victim of gun crime in the USA than terrorism in Pakistan.
    There is more chance of being a victim of rape in India than terrorism in Pakistan.
    There is more chance of being a victim of knife crime in the UK than terrorism in Pakistan.

    Oh you want to be born again in Scandinavia? If quality of life and services was so great in Scandinavia, then how comes the highest suicides rates per capita in the world are in Scandinavia?

    You do not work, you just live off the bank of mum and dad, and are an errand boy when you collect those envelopes.
    This explains pretty much everything. You really have no clue about Pakistan and I donít blame you either. Your ignorance is a function of your lack of exposure to the Pakistani society.

    Rape, gun violence, street crime and other forms of violence are not properly documented in Pakistan. That is why they are not part of the record and hence are not reflected in statistics.

    You have a high chance of getting raped or being subjected to violence in Pakistan, in addition to getting killed due to a terrorist attack. Not to mention, the high levels of air and water pollution in Pakistan. You wonít find any western cities in the top 100 polluted cities in the world.

    According to the UNís World Happiness Report 2019, the top 5 happiest countries in the world are the following:

    (1) Finland
    (2) Denmark
    (3) Norway
    (4) Iceland
    (5) Netherlands

    I do work, but I luckily I donít need to live off my earned money.

  77. #157
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    The issue with you is that you argue for the sake of argument.

    You criticize for the sake of the criticism.

    When you are cornered on your bull-crap, you deflect and run away.

    I haven't seen a single valid argument or solution (realistic) coming from you to solve any Pakistan's issue other than moaning about how other countries are better.

    And, NO!, Zardari and NS are not the solution to solve Pakistan's issue.
    You only offer half-baked critique. All you do is hide behind what others say.

  78. #158
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    According to expat Pakistanis, the standard of living in Pakistan is better than the West, you have to less taxes and the life security is not worse either.

    However, when you ask them why donít they pack their bags and come back to Pakistan if everything is so great, they have no answer, and all you get from them is ďaye bayen shayenĒ.

    You canít even laugh at them anymore. You have to pity them.

  79. #159
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    @Mamoon

    You are not going anywhere with this debate, its useless.

    Let Khan destroy this country.

  80. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    According to expat Pakistanis, the standard of living in Pakistan is better than the West, you have to less taxes and the life security is not worse either.

    However, when you ask them why don’t they pack their bags and come back to Pakistan if everything is so great, they have no answer, and all you get from them is “aye bayen shayen”.

    You can’t even laugh at them anymore. You have to pity them.
    Every Pakistani be it an expat or a home based Pakistani has the right to express their opinion on this site. You also have the right to counter that opinion as you are always eager to do. So in keeping with this spirit what would you do? How would you make Pakistan great again, to steal a phrase. Clearly IK and his team have a view but since you are always ever present to enlighten us and your numerous followers, lets hear Mamoons views. I mean I'm eager to hear from a twenty three year old who was still in diapers when the world changed and went to war or wasn't even born when quite a few of use were ethnically cleansed from our homes because we were a different ethnicity to a certain political party in karachi..but please enlighten us I want to hear your opinion because all I hear from you is the contrary opinion just so you can get a few thumbs up from some followers...

    so come on then..I'm waiting..


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