Sohail Speaks Yasir's Blog Fazeer's Focus

User Tag List

View Poll Results: Are you in favour of women wearing Hijab in public?

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Not at all

    10 24.39%
  • Somewhat not in favour

    7 17.07%
  • Somewhat in favour

    5 12.20%
  • Totally in favour

    19 46.34%
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 161 to 201 of 201
  1. #161
    Debut
    Aug 2012
    Venue
    everywhere
    Runs
    27,096
    Mentioned
    400 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    I know Muslim Sunnis have various schools of thoughts. Never denied that.

    So what you are saying is that even Sunnis do not agree with Bukhari and all of the hadiths there are Sahih.

    So if Bukhari is wrong, then you might as well throw it in garbage. You have to strictly rely only on Quran. Without Hadiths, you cannot explain Quran as the verses revealed had a context. Hence there are Tafsirs.

    I also posted the link from the Quran which take about women covering their face and bosoms. It is a clear explanation. I posted the link too.

    If you do not want to believe even Quran, then you are welcome. It is clar that women have to cover their faces and modesty. If you donít, then clearly Pak women are not following Islam.

    Hence whenever, Islamists come to power, then enforce Burqa. Donít tell me Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Afghanistan etc are all deluded and they donít understand Islam.
    Are you deliberately trying to overlook the posts which have answered you?
    The Hadith in Bukhari and other books of Hadith were never looked at in the same way as you are trying to portray them. You are picking up a hadith and posting it here and telling us that the particular hadith says so and hence this is the only thing that should be done. This is a wrong approach and only a layman or an extremist would adopt this approach. A hadith can have many counter hadiths and that is a proof that Islam never had a one size fits all approach. It always allowed flexibility and room to be different as per the situation. But to come to a conclusion about the application of certain hadith, you need to be an expert in the field.

    Throughout the history of Islam, Hadith was the domain of only scholars and they approach it keeping Quran in mind and Keeping Sunnah in mind. Sunnah in this matter is synonymous with Hikmah (wisdom) of the Prophet and hence a particular hadith mentioned in bukhari need not be the only thing that has to be followed under all circumstances. For the 100th time in this thread, the Shariah is not rigid and it leaves room for wisdom of scholars. The great scholars of Islam like Imam Malik had warned people that without studying the entire tradition and science of hadith extensively for years, their limited knowledge will become dangerous. And this is why the concept of Taqleed (following an expert) is important. If you can become an expert, thats always better though as was argued by Hanbali scholars like Ibn Taymiyya.

    The vast majority of Ahlus Sunnah scholars have held the view that the face veil isnt important or necessary. They have arrived at this conclusion using Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, and Hikmah after years of expertise. Now unless you are telling us that you understand Islam better than them, your opinion doesnt hold any value. Regarding Saudi, Iran Afghanistan etc enforcing face veil, their governments dont belong to Ahlus sunnah but they follow Wahabi Islam. And Qatar, Saudi and Iran dont enforce face veil anyway as far as i know so i am pretty sure you are mistaken there as well.

    So if Bukhari is wrong, then you might as well throw it in garbage.
    You might want to reconsider your language here. Sahi Bukhari contains the hadiths of Prophet (saww) and asking muslims to throw it in garbage hurts our sentiments.

  2. #162
    Debut
    Sep 2018
    Runs
    805
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I dont feel its my business to question what women wear. They can wear what they like.
    Unless they want to show some skin, then you will care.

  3. #163
    Debut
    Apr 2019
    Runs
    2,661
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    So what is your point? You want the complete Arabisation of Pak culture to be a better Muslim in your opinion?. Does not matter what they are wearing underneath when all we see is Arab clothing. Why are we killing our own indigenous culture?
    Weíre killing our own indigenous culture? In that case, letís get rid of English as an official language, letís get rid of the English parliamentary system we have in Pakistan and letís get rid of things like Democracy which originated in the west.

    Conservatives want arabization of Pakistan, liberals want westernization of Pakistan.

  4. #164
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    9,906
    Mentioned
    116 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamM97 View Post
    We’re killing our own indigenous culture? In that case, let’s get rid of English as an official language, let’s get rid of the English parliamentary system we have in Pakistan and let’s get rid of things like Democracy which originated in the west.

    Conservatives want arabization of Pakistan, liberals want westernization of Pakistan.
    English is the most common language in the world which is why we need to speak it when communicating with the west. Yes we should get rid of democracy as well and implement a real interest free Islamic system that the Quaid wanted. I don't want westernisation or Arabisation of Pak culture but to retain our cultural heritage whilst retaining our Islamic faith. Back in the 1970's all this hijab and niqab nonsense were much more uncommon in Pak then they are today.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  5. #165
    Debut
    Jun 2011
    Venue
    Delhi
    Runs
    11,600
    Mentioned
    137 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Are you deliberately trying to overlook the posts which have answered you?
    The Hadith in Bukhari and other books of Hadith were never looked at in the same way as you are trying to portray them. You are picking up a hadith and posting it here and telling us that the particular hadith says so and hence this is the only thing that should be done. This is a wrong approach and only a layman or an extremist would adopt this approach. A hadith can have many counter hadiths and that is a proof that Islam never had a one size fits all approach. It always allowed flexibility and room to be different as per the situation. But to come to a conclusion about the application of certain hadith, you need to be an expert in the field.

    Throughout the history of Islam, Hadith was the domain of only scholars and they approach it keeping Quran in mind and Keeping Sunnah in mind. Sunnah in this matter is synonymous with Hikmah (wisdom) of the Prophet and hence a particular hadith mentioned in bukhari need not be the only thing that has to be followed under all circumstances. For the 100th time in this thread, the Shariah is not rigid and it leaves room for wisdom of scholars. The great scholars of Islam like Imam Malik had warned people that without studying the entire tradition and science of hadith extensively for years, their limited knowledge will become dangerous. And this is why the concept of Taqleed (following an expert) is important. If you can become an expert, thats always better though as was argued by Hanbali scholars like Ibn Taymiyya.

    The vast majority of Ahlus Sunnah scholars have held the view that the face veil isnt important or necessary. They have arrived at this conclusion using Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, and Hikmah after years of expertise. Now unless you are telling us that you understand Islam better than them, your opinion doesnt hold any value. Regarding Saudi, Iran Afghanistan etc enforcing face veil, their governments dont belong to Ahlus sunnah but they follow Wahabi Islam. And Qatar, Saudi and Iran dont enforce face veil anyway as far as i know so i am pretty sure you are mistaken there as well.



    You might want to reconsider your language here. Sahi Bukhari contains the hadiths of Prophet (saww) and asking muslims to throw it in garbage hurts our sentiments.
    I will ask a simple question. Why Islam is so complicated that one needs to study for years in order to understand what God has uttered? If religion is for common people to follow, then it should be under clear instructions where even a lay man could follow and not mislead by some fake scholars.

  6. #166
    Debut
    Aug 2012
    Venue
    everywhere
    Runs
    27,096
    Mentioned
    400 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    I will ask a simple question. Why Islam is so complicated that one needs to study for years in order to understand what God has uttered? If religion is for common people to follow, then it should be under clear instructions where even a lay man could follow and not mislead by some fake scholars.
    Islam isn't more complicated than any other religion. Its just more broad than most people think it is. Lay men have followed it since centuries without any issues because it was followed as a tradition which takes knowledge from the previous generations. But for the more nuanced and minute technicalities and to overcome language barriers, an expert is required just like in any field of life or in any subject. Taqleed (following an expert) is a thing in Islam but becoming a mujtahid (expert) is always preferred.

    I have a question for you too. Why are specialist degrees in religious studies a thing if anyone can be an expert on technicalities of religion without dedicating time to study it under proper guidance?

  7. #167
    Debut
    Jun 2011
    Venue
    Delhi
    Runs
    11,600
    Mentioned
    137 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Islam isn't more complicated than any other religion. Its just more broad than most people think it is. Lay men have followed it since centuries without any issues because it was followed as a tradition which takes knowledge from the previous generations. But for the more nuanced and minute technicalities and to overcome language barriers, an expert is required just like in any field of life or in any subject. Taqleed (following an expert) is a thing in Islam but becoming a mujtahid (expert) is always preferred.

    I have a question for you too. Why are specialist degrees in religious studies a thing if anyone can be an expert on technicalities of religion without dedicating time to study it under proper guidance?
    My answer will be a simple one. There shouldn't be a requirement for degrees in the first place. If the religious scripts were simple enough, the requirement of experts wouldn't be there.

    Now, different people will hold different perspectives. Two experts with same degree may interpret the same quote differently which is absolutely normal in the regular context. But it can have drastic effect in terms of religion. More so in case of abrahamic religion where it's not just a religion but a way of life.

    Since this takes such an integral position, the scripts should have been simple instead of creating a community which will decide what those words mean.

  8. #168
    Debut
    Mar 2016
    Venue
    Toronto
    Runs
    4,610
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Basic message of Islam is not complex or confusing. It is all about strict monotheism (worship the one and only true God). There is no debate about it.

    Islam has 5 pillars - Imaan (belief), Salah (5 daily prayers), Zakah (mandatory charity), Fasting (Ramadan), and Hajj (pilgrimage).

    Islam has 6 articles of faith - belief in one God, belief in angels, belief in prophets (peace be upon them all), belief in holy books, belief in day of judgement, and belief in predestination.

    As you can see, foundation of Islam is not complex. It is actually quite easy to understand.


    LIONEL MESSI FAN
    Find PakPassion on Twitter: @PakPassion

  9. #169
    Debut
    Aug 2010
    Runs
    1,002
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A thread of 3 pages of mostly men commenting on a woman's outfit. Let me see how about let her decide if she wants to wear it or not. There should be laws that force her to wear it or take it off it should be her choice!

  10. #170
    Debut
    Dec 2015
    Runs
    8,639
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Hijab is a sexist practice from ancient times when women were considered as a commodity for men.

    It is completely illogical to force women to cover themselves excessively while not applying a similar rule to men.

    What does Hijab even achieve? Why is intimate relationships between two adults anyone else's business? Why is it even wrong morally?

    There are billions of women who do not wear Hijab and no not all of them are getting raped or harassed.

    Hijab looks ugly and serves no purpose. Next time, someone supports it, they should ask themselves how will they feel if they have to wrap a cloth around their head everywhere they go.

  11. #171
    Debut
    Aug 2010
    Runs
    1,002
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No one should be forced to do anything but if someone choses then how does that effect anyone?

  12. #172
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    5,375
    Mentioned
    142 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Salma_T View Post
    No one should be forced to do anything but if someone choses then how does that effect anyone?
    Do you really think that the majority of the women "choose" what to wear (and to and extent men)?, be it hijab, niqab or even bikinis, although especially in the case of oppressive clothing.

    It mostly is a result of upbringing, indoctrination, society, culture etc.

    That's why you see women in patriarchal societies and cultures wearing more conservative clothing while women in liberal societies pretty much wear what they want.

    The clincher is that they dont even realise that they have been brainwashed and think that it was a conscious decision on their part.
    Last edited by DeadBall; 16th July 2019 at 06:37.

  13. #173
    Debut
    Jun 2018
    Runs
    2,341
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    Do you really think that the majority of the women "choose" what to wear (and to and extent men)?, be it hijab, niqab or even bikinis, although especially in the case of oppressive clothing.

    It mostly is a result of upbringing, indoctrination, society, culture etc.

    That's why you see women in patriarchal societies and cultures wearing more conservative clothing while women in liberal societies pretty much wear what they want.

    The clincher is that they dont even realise that they have been brainwashed and think that it was a conscious decision on their part.
    So which group is being brain washed and who gets to decide who was brain washed?

    It is clothing, if someone believe in it and wants to wear it then let it be, no authority should ban an article of clothing, particularly an extra clothing.

    Seriously the dumbest thread that has exposed many men as ignorant while trying their best to appear as liberal.

  14. #174
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    5,375
    Mentioned
    142 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    So which group is being brain washed and who gets to decide who was brain washed?

    It is clothing, if someone believe in it and wants to wear it then let it be, no authority should ban an article of clothing, particularly an extra clothing.

    Seriously the dumbest thread that has exposed many men as ignorant while trying their best to appear as liberal.
    All groups are brainwashed, indoctrinated etc to a certain degree, it's part and parcel of being a member of a group. If you are different then you are looked upon as different in most cases and in extreme cases as an outcast.

    If you see any clothing from any culture, era, etc the majority dress the same to be accepted as part of their respective groups be it conservative, liberal and so on.

    I am not talking about just women but men also, 90 percent of them dress the same as their counterparts. It's also not just limited to clothing but hairstyles (for men and women), make up etc.

    My point was that in liberal societies women would not be berated, condemned or shamed for covering their heads, it was actually quite fashionable in the 50s and 60s but a woman would be condemned, shamed and even persecuted for wearing revealing clothes in most conservative societies and I'm not just talking about Islam. Christanity, Judaism etc weren't so different not so long ago, and it still goes on in the more orthodox regions and observing religions like Mormonism etc.

    I have never forced or even commented on any woman I knew to wear anything, be it my sisters(although my brother and father had different thoughts) gfs, wife and daughter that they didn't want to and never will. It was just my observation on the matter.

  15. #175
    Debut
    Aug 2012
    Venue
    everywhere
    Runs
    27,096
    Mentioned
    400 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    My answer will be a simple one. There shouldn't be a requirement for degrees in the first place. If the religious scripts were simple enough, the requirement of experts wouldn't be there.

    Now, different people will hold different perspectives. Two experts with same degree may interpret the same quote differently which is absolutely normal in the regular context. But it can have drastic effect in terms of religion. More so in case of abrahamic religion where it's not just a religion but a way of life.

    Since this takes such an integral position, the scripts should have been simple instead of creating a community which will decide what those words mean.
    Your answer is simple but not practical. When a religion is meant to be a way of life, it is bound to address various situations that can arise. And hence due to the sheer vastness of its scope, expertise becomes necessary. A common man engaged in his daily activities can only learn so much about it. And not just Islam, in every religion of the world you need experts to which the common folk go. These experts can distinguish the simple parts of religion which can be quickly understood by anyone and the difficult parts which need extensive study. This inturn becomes part of the religious tradition where both common people and the experts become aware of their respective domains.

    As far as difference of opinions is concerned, it is and should always be allowed an appreciated. The 4 schools of thought in Islam are looked at as 4 different teachers teaching the same topic but with different methods. Eventually they all reach the same point and all the students understand the similar meaning of the topic.

  16. #176
    Debut
    Aug 2010
    Runs
    1,002
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    Do you really think that the majority of the women "choose" what to wear (and to and extent men)?, be it hijab, niqab or even bikinis, although especially in the case of oppressive clothing.

    It mostly is a result of upbringing, indoctrination, society, culture etc.

    That's why you see women in patriarchal societies and cultures wearing more conservative clothing while women in liberal societies pretty much wear what they want.

    The clincher is that they dont even realise that they have been brainwashed and think that it was a conscious decision on their part.
    Yes you have point re women wearing it because that is what has happened and all they know. Yet I know many who chose to wear it and chose to take it off too. As well as not dressing modestly and others doing so. My argument is no complains about women wearing bikinis (when one can argue they are conditioned to do so) yet a peice of cloth on a Muslim head is too much. I personallydo not cover and have never felt the need too!

  17. #177
    Debut
    Apr 2013
    Venue
    Auckland
    Runs
    11,051
    Mentioned
    390 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    As a Muslim, I fully support our women using Hijab. They are supposed to cover their hairs anyway.

    Women sometimes get assaulted because they don't cover themselves well. If they dress properly, they can reduce it.
    Hijab is mandatory, but head covering is a choice. Let's not confuse hijab with head covering. Observing hijab simply means to observe modesty.

    Second of all, the Quran asks men and women to observe restraint before it asks them to observe modest dress. Yes, maybe both men and women can protect themselves by dressing modestly, but if someone wants to look at someone else in a bad way, they will do so regardless of modest dress being observed or not.

    I support women to have the right to wear head coverings in public, but I am strongly against forcing women to dress a certain way, they should be able to dress however they want. Also, I am against niqab, it is a safety hazard. Also, I don't find niqab to be modest, to me, modest dress is a moderate way of dress, where you have a decent and presentable appearance and aren't drawing over the top attention to yourself.
    Last edited by hussain.r97; 16th July 2019 at 16:46.


    ďIt is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.Ē
    ― Imran Khan

  18. #178
    Debut
    Apr 2013
    Venue
    Auckland
    Runs
    11,051
    Mentioned
    390 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    You didn't bother to respond to my comment or even quote me cause you have no way to refute what I said and are afraid being owned again. I'll repeat what I said before in the simplest words for you - Islam is a religion with many sects and schools of thoughts, each with their own fiqh (laws), theology and interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunnah (traditions of Muhammad PBUH).

    Here are some argument-al fallacies you've been committing on this thread constantly either out of ignorance or maliciousness, I'd encourage to read this whole post before replying to me (if you dare):

    1. You keep assuming all Muslims on this thread belong to one sect and school of thought, probably Sunni - Hannafi going off your comments.
    - Not all Pakistanis or Muslims on this forum are Sunni. While I am one, this forum is very diverse so to assume just one position of Islam you're implying only one school of thought and sect is the right one, you're basically doing the exact same thing extremists such as the Taliban and ISIS are doing which assuming the authority of deciding who is or isn't Muslim.
    - If your gripe with is with Sunni Islam then go ahead and state that clearly because your whole argument is against Sunni - Islama and that too of one of school thought.
    - You keep posting Hadiths but you're unware that there are Pakistani Shias too and Shias do not recognize the Sahih Sittah (6 authentic hadiths) and have their own hadith collection and they also make 5 prayers a day (3 times a day as opposed to 5 times) so by attacking Islam based off the hadiths you're implying that Shias are not Muslim a view held among extremists. Jinnah who split India was also from the Shia sect.
    - Ismailis are also considered Muslims according to both the Amman message by the Imam-e-Ka'aba and the Govt of Pakistan and even by India, so you're implying they're not Muslim because they don't follow the Hadiths, have their own prayer style and don't pray 5 times a day as the only basis for being Muslim is believing that there is no creator but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger, the five pillars that come from the Hadiths actually varies according to school of thought so you can not declare somebody a non-Muslim based off not subscribing to the 5 pillars, some madhabs (schools) believe there are 6 pillars and that just shows the diversity of interpretations.
    - There are also Ahmadis, I don't want to get into a debate about their beliefs but as a secular Indian you probably consider them Muslims so it's surprising you're implying only Sunnis are Muslim and excluding anybody that doesn't fit a certain fiqh or theology.

    - There are also Qur'anists aka Al-Quraniyoon who are Muslims that only believe in the Qur'an and not the Hadiths very similar to some denominations in Christanity that broke off from Catholicism, so you have no right to say they aren't Muslim because they don't subscribe to the Sahih Sittah, the first of which was published a couple centuries after the Prophets death. By making the claim that you can only be Muslim by following the hadiths you are supporting the same views of ISIS and the Taliban.


    Now for the sake of argument and to make things simpler for you as all of this must be confusing to somebody not familiar to the diversity of thought within the Muslim world, lets assume that you're only talking about Sunni Islam and disregarding the other sects even then you're incorrect about your assertions on the Sunni 'stance' on Hijab.

    To break it down
    1. How Sunni - Islam is practiced varies by madhabs (schools of thoughts) each with their own fiqh (law)
    2. There are 4 major school of thoughts - Shafi, Maliki, Hannafi and Hanbali. There are some minor schools of thoughts but they have a miniscule number of followers so aren't discussed as often as the Big 4

    Now you may ask how these madhabs differ from each other when they're all essentially under the umbrella of Sunni Islam? How did they come into existence and why?

    The answer is that each of the madhabs were named after certain scholars who researched Islam and the Hadiths but they all have different laws but each of the 4 scholars intepreted the same hadiths differently, Abu Hanifa who founded the Hanafi school and Malik ibn Anas the founder of the Maliki school could both study the same hadith for example the Sahih Bukhari yet come to different conclusions and that's why practices can vary between sunnis, even in terms of prayer styles, what is forbidden to eat and what isn't etc If you go to sunni mosque you can see a Moroccan muslim who follows the Maliki tradition may fold his arms differently from a Malaysian Muslim that follows the Shafii tradition. Some other notable differences is the duration of Eid, in North Africa they celebrate Eid for only 2 days in line with the laws laid by the dominant school of thought as opposed to 4 days of Eid as is the norm in Hanafi majority countries. In some madhabs eating shrimp isn't halal while in other it is and they all base their different positions from the interpretations of the Hadiths by the respective scholars.

    It's the same with the veil. While the hijab is required by all 4 school, covering your face is not required except by Salafis and as I mentioned above there are even some Salafi scholars such as Al Albani, one of the most respected scholars of Albanian origin to have studied Islam and he's still held high regard. So I don't know who you think you are to override the rulings from the 4 madhabs, the scholars that researched the hadiths extensively and other scholars such as Al Albaani in the past century that have maintained that covering your face (the veil) is not required by Islam at all.

    Before you say "but but the Hadiths!!!!1" - Every Sunni Muslim in the world follows a school of though whether knowingly or unknowingly, we all follow one school or another and the scholars that founded each madhab has already interpreted the hadiths for us and laid out the laws, so just studying the hadiths in isolation to suggest what it says makes no sense unless you're somebody that chooses to not follow any madhab and instead do their own thing or maybe start your own movement but for most Sunnis we aren't going to breakaway from the traditions already established by the madhab that we follow.

    For more info on the different schools
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab
    https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/10/...liki-in-islam/

    Don't bother responding if you have gained any knowledge from this because there's no point having a discussion with some with a juvenile understanding of religion.

    @Madplayer @hussain.r97
    Well said. From a Shia point of view, another thing to add is that the Quran takes precedence over Hadith at all times. Hadiths can be inauthentic or have a poor chain of narrations, so just picking some Hadiths from a book and presenting them in an argument is totally pointless. You need to prove that the hadith is authentic, conforms to Quranic law (can't add or subtract onto what the Quran says), and is logical.


    ďIt is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.Ē
    ― Imran Khan

  19. #179
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,277
    Mentioned
    680 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CricketDon View Post
    Unless they want to show some skin, then you will care.
    Im not a pervert, speak for yourself.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  20. #180
    Debut
    Jun 2018
    Runs
    2,341
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    All groups are brainwashed, indoctrinated etc to a certain degree, it's part and parcel of being a member of a group. If you are different then you are looked upon as different in most cases and in extreme cases as an outcast.

    If you see any clothing from any culture, era, etc the majority dress the same to be accepted as part of their respective groups be it conservative, liberal and so on.

    I am not talking about just women but men also, 90 percent of them dress the same as their counterparts. It's also not just limited to clothing but hairstyles (for men and women), make up etc.

    My point was that in liberal societies women would not be berated, condemned or shamed for covering their heads, it was actually quite fashionable in the 50s and 60s but a woman would be condemned, shamed and even persecuted for wearing revealing clothes in most conservative societies and I'm not just talking about Islam. Christanity, Judaism etc weren't so different not so long ago, and it still goes on in the more orthodox regions and observing religions like Mormonism etc.

    I have never forced or even commented on any woman I knew to wear anything, be it my sisters(although my brother and father had different thoughts) gfs, wife and daughter that they didn't want to and never will. It was just my observation on the matter.
    Understood what you have tried to explain.

    It is liberal who belittle anyone those who chose to wear extra clothing.

    And liberal belittling always begin with, 'The men in her life forced her' and if a person has a beard then he must be a "Mullah"

    Belittling is done by self proclaimed liberal because that make themselves feel superior or better intellectual, both of which is false sense superiority complex.

  21. #181
    Debut
    May 2016
    Runs
    9,744
    Mentioned
    217 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Are you deliberately trying to overlook the posts which have answered you?
    The Hadith in Bukhari and other books of Hadith were never looked at in the same way as you are trying to portray them. You are picking up a hadith and posting it here and telling us that the particular hadith says so and hence this is the only thing that should be done. This is a wrong approach and only a layman or an extremist would adopt this approach. A hadith can have many counter hadiths and that is a proof that Islam never had a one size fits all approach. It always allowed flexibility and room to be different as per the situation. But to come to a conclusion about the application of certain hadith, you need to be an expert in the field.

    Throughout the history of Islam, Hadith was the domain of only scholars and they approach it keeping Quran in mind and Keeping Sunnah in mind. Sunnah in this matter is synonymous with Hikmah (wisdom) of the Prophet and hence a particular hadith mentioned in bukhari need not be the only thing that has to be followed under all circumstances. For the 100th time in this thread, the Shariah is not rigid and it leaves room for wisdom of scholars. The great scholars of Islam like Imam Malik had warned people that without studying the entire tradition and science of hadith extensively for years, their limited knowledge will become dangerous. And this is why the concept of Taqleed (following an expert) is important. If you can become an expert, thats always better though as was argued by Hanbali scholars like Ibn Taymiyya.

    The vast majority of Ahlus Sunnah scholars have held the view that the face veil isnt important or necessary. They have arrived at this conclusion using Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, and Hikmah after years of expertise. Now unless you are telling us that you understand Islam better than them, your opinion doesnt hold any value. Regarding Saudi, Iran Afghanistan etc enforcing face veil, their governments dont belong to Ahlus sunnah but they follow Wahabi Islam. And Qatar, Saudi and Iran dont enforce face veil anyway as far as i know so i am pretty sure you are mistaken there as well.



    You might want to reconsider your language here. Sahi Bukhari contains the hadiths of Prophet (saww) and asking muslims to throw it in garbage hurts our sentiments.
    What is the point of a book if it is corrupted and Muslims do not agree with it? If you do not trust Bukhari's Hadiths, then it is of no value. It will be just some words in a book.

    I posted the verse from Quran which supports women covering their face and a long cloth covering their bosoms. Are you going to deny that also?

    A perfect book where each verse has a million interpretations is of what use for people? Whose interpretation is correct according to you?

    There are clear hadiths which say that women have to cover themselves. How much more clear can they get? Are you saying that the Bukhari Hadith is wrong?

  22. #182
    Debut
    Oct 2004
    Runs
    112,858
    Mentioned
    2010 Post(s)
    Tagged
    20 Thread(s)


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  23. #183
    Debut
    May 2014
    Venue
    United States of America
    Runs
    13,428
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    MashAllah

    Faith in humanity restored


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  24. #184
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    91,699
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    Well said. From a Shia point of view, another thing to add is that the Quran takes precedence over Hadith at all times. Hadiths can be inauthentic or have a poor chain of narrations, so just picking some Hadiths from a book and presenting them in an argument is totally pointless. You need to prove that the hadith is authentic, conforms to Quranic law (can't add or subtract onto what the Quran says), and is logical.
    Even for Sunnis Quran takes precedence over hadeeth, that is why there is a science called jarah and Tadeel. The muhaddith who wrote hadeeth books also wrote books on lives of narrators , to determine the various authenticity of hadeeth.

    People have worked really hard for the authenticity of hadeeth.

  25. #185
    Debut
    May 2016
    Runs
    9,744
    Mentioned
    217 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Even for Sunnis Quran takes precedence over hadeeth, that is why there is a science called jarah and Tadeel. The muhaddith who wrote hadeeth books also wrote books on lives of narrators , to determine the various authenticity of hadeeth.

    People have worked really hard for the authenticity of hadeeth.
    Do you accept Hadith?

  26. #186
    Debut
    Sep 2005
    Runs
    8,170
    Mentioned
    406 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Even for Sunnis Quran takes precedence over hadeeth, that is why there is a science called jarah and Tadeel. The muhaddith who wrote hadeeth books also wrote books on lives of narrators , to determine the various authenticity of hadeeth.

    People have worked really hard for the authenticity of hadeeth.
    But they ultimately settled for what is essentially Chinese whispers?

  27. #187
    Debut
    Sep 2005
    Runs
    8,170
    Mentioned
    406 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    A woman should be allowed to wear whatever or what little she likes.

  28. #188
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Australia
    Runs
    1,149
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not in favour personally but its up to the lady. There are much better ways to mitigate harassment than a cloth on your head.

  29. #189
    Debut
    Sep 2018
    Venue
    Stockholm
    Runs
    2,385
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Islam is never about compulsion rather about freedom.Wearing doesn't necessarily make a girl more pious.Its her personal choice.Its all about your intentions.If your intentions and niyat isn't right no hijab can save you and its pointless

  30. #190
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    91,699
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Do you accept Hadith?
    Yes, if it is authentic I do.

  31. #191
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    91,699
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    But they ultimately settled for what is essentially Chinese whispers?
    Sorry but I could not get you , can you elaborate .

  32. #192
    Debut
    Apr 2013
    Venue
    Auckland
    Runs
    11,051
    Mentioned
    390 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Even for Sunnis Quran takes precedence over hadeeth, that is why there is a science called jarah and Tadeel. The muhaddith who wrote hadeeth books also wrote books on lives of narrators , to determine the various authenticity of hadeeth.

    People have worked really hard for the authenticity of hadeeth.
    Yes, that's true.

    I think what I was trying to say was that in Shi'ism, there are no Hadith books that are considered 100% authentic or inauthentic the way Sunniism has the Sahih Sittah. Many of the 'Shia hadith books' actually have a disclaimer on the first page saying that the book is merely a composition of narrations attained from multiple sources, and the hadiths in the books should all be verified against the Quran and logic for authenticity. Because of this, all hadith's in these books come under constant scrutiny, even if someone called them 'sahih' a long time ago. Even Sunni books like Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are studied in Shia Islam, and many of the hadith in these books are even sahih by Shia standards.


    ďIt is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.Ē
    ― Imran Khan

  33. #193
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    91,699
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    Yes, that's true.

    I think what I was trying to say was that in Shi'ism, there are no Hadith books that are considered 100% authentic or inauthentic the way Sunniism has the Sahih Sittah. Many of the 'Shia hadith books' actually have a disclaimer on the first page saying that the book is merely a composition of narrations attained from multiple sources, and the hadiths in the books should all be verified against the Quran and logic for authenticity. Because of this, all hadith's in these books come under constant scrutiny, even if someone called them 'sahih' a long time ago. Even Sunni books like Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are studied in Shia Islam, and many of the hadith in these books are even sahih by Shia standards.
    Sahih sitah has many weak hadeeth .

    The Muhaddith were aware about them , but they wanted to make sure people know these hadeeth existed , so that later people cannot claim that though it existed they never wrote it, but at the same time they were graded.
    Last edited by Justcrazy; 25th October 2019 at 00:22.

  34. #194
    Debut
    Apr 2013
    Venue
    Auckland
    Runs
    11,051
    Mentioned
    390 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Sahih sitah has many weak hadeeth .

    The Muhaddith were aware about them , but they wanted to make sure people know these hadeeth existed , so that later people cannot claim that though it existed they never wrote it, but at the same time they were graded.
    That's interesting. I was always under the impression that in Sunni Islam, Sahih Sitah are considered totally authentic.

  35. #195
    Debut
    Oct 2004
    Runs
    112,858
    Mentioned
    2010 Post(s)
    Tagged
    20 Thread(s)
    A teenage Muslim athlete in the US state of Ohio has told of her devastation at being disqualified for wearing a hijab during a race.

    Noor Abukaram, 16, said she was not warned her attire was against the rules until after crossing the finish line.

    Amid outcry, the Ohio High School Athletic Association (OHSAA) says it is looking into changing its religious waiver rules for next season.

    Her story sparked a national discussion about dress codes and discrimination.

    Noor had been running for the Sylvania Northview school team all season, and her hijab - a head covering worn by some Muslim women for religious reasons - had never been an issue before the district level race in on Saturday in the city of Findlay, 135 miles (220km) west of Cleveland.

    Noor wrote in a Facebook post after the event that when the officials inspected her team, they informed one of her teammates that her shorts were in violation of the rules and allowed her to change.

    But they did not say anything to Noor about her Nike athletic hijab, though she said she saw her coach discussing something privately with the officials.

    After finishing the 5km race with her personal best time of 22 minutes and 22 seconds, Noor was surprised to find her name was not on the score boards.

    Her teammates then told her she had been disqualified.

    "When I found it was because of my hijab, I felt like I had got hit by a truck and punched in the gut," Noor told the BBC.

    "Being disqualified because of my hijab - it's not because they're looking out for my safety, or because they are concerned that I have an advantage, because I definitely don't have an advantage wearing my hijab.

    "I think it's discriminatory against my religion."

    Noor says she felt "humiliated" after the race, especially since the officials said nothing to her beforehand.

    "I looked like a clown running that race and I only ran it for those officials," she said.

    Her coach had failed to submit a religious waiver for the Saturday race, but has since filed one for Noor's upcoming regional competition this weekend, and OHSAA has accepted it.

    While the association's rulebook does not specifically mention hijabs, it states religious headwear requires a waiver, local media report.

    An OHSAA spokesman told the Associated Press that they have previously considered dropping the religious waiver requirement, and the issue is being taken seriously in light of this incident.

    The spokesman also noted that the rule is not always enforced, including in some instances of runners wearing hats in cold weather.

    Noor believes no one should have to sign a waiver for something like a hijab.

    "They don't need to alter the course for me specifically. I'm running just like everyone else, I'm starting on the same start line and finishing on the same finish line."

    But she says that she's seen a lot of positive feedback from her community - and across the US. Her cousin's initial Facebook post sharing Noor's story had over 2,000 likes and 3,000 shares as of Friday.

    "I'm really happy that I decided to let this story go public because it really brings out a dialogue, and a lot of different people have been reaching out to me saying that similar things have been happening to them."

    On Thursday, Massachusetts senator and 2020 Democratic hopeful Elizabeth Warren also weighed in, saying: "Muslim students should never be denied participation in school activities."

    Controversy surrounding around athletes and hijabs is not new.

    Last year, a 16-year-old basketball player in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was made to leave a game over her hijab, which prompted a statewide rule change.

    Female athletes in particular have been singled out over strict dress codes.

    Last month, a teenage swimmer in Anchorage, Alaska, was disqualified after winning a race on the grounds that her school-issued swimsuit had exposed too much of her bottom.

    The decision was overturned following public outcry.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50186728


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  36. #196
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    91,699
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    That's interesting. I was always under the impression that in Sunni Islam, Sahih Sitah are considered totally authentic.
    I have one stats regarding one of the six books .

    Sunan Ibn Majah is of the lowest order of the 6 books, because it contains the most weak / fabricated hadith in there. According to the muhaqqiq Muhammad Fu'ad `Abd al-Baqi, the total number of hadith in Ibn Majah's Sunan is 4,341, of that number 3,002 hadith can be found in the other 5 major books of hadith, while 1,339 is exclusively found in Sunan Ibn Majah. Out of the unique hadiths (1,339), here are the statistics.



    Sahih - 428 hadith

    Hasan - 199 hadith

    Da`eef - 613 hadith

    Munkar/Fabricated - 99 hadith


    Fear the Creator ..... not the created.

  37. #197
    Debut
    May 2018
    Runs
    16
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Ask women

    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    A lot of women dress and behave inappropriately and then complain when they get assaulted/harassed.

    Men have a natural weakness for women and women should be responsible with their clothing choices and behaviors.
    Should men overcome their weakness?

  38. #198
    Debut
    Mar 2016
    Venue
    Toronto
    Runs
    4,610
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahorijat View Post
    Should men overcome their weakness?
    Men should lower their gazes but women also need to be responsible. It has to be a combination of both.

    I must say it is hard to lower gaze but every man should try as much as he can.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 27th October 2019 at 08:31.


    LIONEL MESSI FAN
    Find PakPassion on Twitter: @PakPassion

  39. #199
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    27,974
    Mentioned
    255 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    Men should lower their gazes but women also need to be responsible. It has to be a combination of both.

    I must say it is hard to lower gaze but every man should try as much as he can.
    I was actually thinking lowering the gaze makes absolutely no sense in the modern context, especially in the western world. Women who wear skimpy clothes are usually proud of their bodies and want men to notice, otherwise what would be the point?

    But then I thought about it and realised attractive women might want to be checked out, but they don't want men gawking at them like animals. In this light, the Islamic injunction to lower the gaze really makes sense Alhamdulillah. Or maybe wear mirror sunglasses so the gawking can be a bit more discreet.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  40. #200
    Debut
    May 2019
    Runs
    23
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    @Cpt. Rishwat - Do you really live in West and telling that women wear skimpy clothes because they want to be check out by man? Really.., do you ever think about that they just want to look beautiful in mirror or in their own eyes. Not all things are related to men. Unbelievable thinking of a person who born and brought up in Britain.


  41. #201
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    27,974
    Mentioned
    255 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanXi View Post
    @Cpt. Rishwat - Do you really live in West and telling that women wear skimpy clothes because they want to be check out by man? Really.., do you ever think about that they just want to look beautiful in mirror or in their own eyes. Not all things are related to men. Unbelievable thinking of a person who born and brought up in Britain.
    Well I'm old fashioned I admit. Could well be that women who dress in skimpy clothes are doing it for other women or transgenders, not even just for the mirror. Thanks for pointing this out.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •