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  1. #1
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    A tribute to Brian Lara turning 50 - Where did he rank overall? Most gifted of all players?

    This year on May 2nd 1969 the immortal Brian Lara turned 50 .Sadly I missed his birthday and thus this tribute is paid around 3 moths late.Anyway better late than never.I plead that PP viewers could share this great landmark with me and respond to my article on their views .I feel really sorry that I missed out earlier.

    Brian Lara was a true embodiment or ornament to the game or to sport who took cricketing genius to heights of divinity or regions or depths of the sublime.I personally rate him the equivalent of the great Wasim Akram as a batsmen overall, not only as a left handed batsmen.He could explode like a dynamite but still retain the subtlety of a pianist or grace of a ballad dancer.Blending artistry no batsmen was more mercurial even of many were technically better.At his best it almost looked as though he was defining another epoch in the history of the game-such was his supreme dominance and skill.He would create the impact of a hurricane or a sword piercing flesh but still reveal the effortlessness of the touches of a painters brush.

    POSITIVE POINTS

    In my personal view for sheer talent or genius he nosed even the great Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar by a whisker.Lara was the equivalent of a Beethoven or Michenangelo to batting .Left handers Gary Sobers or Graeme Pollock could not equal Lara's prowess and the closest to Lara in terms of pure flair was the Englishman David Gower.Overall to me the batsmen most similar or on par in terms of talent to Lara was the maestro Rohan Kanhai who also held a bat like a wand but was technically sounder.Although Sobers was more consistent Lara and Kanhai were more talented and could be more impactful at their best.

    For pure genius as a cricketer perhaps only Gary Sobers or arguably W.G.Grace was ahead and maybe Ian Botham at his best.In terms of being a magician Wasim was the equal or equivalent of Lara.At his best I find it difficult to visualize any batsmen surpassing Lara ,including Sir Viv Richards and would vote him with Victor Trumper and Rohan Kanhai at the top,at their best. Evaluating the bowling attack he faced and the condition of the wicket Lara's 153 n.o to me is still the best test innings ever in a run chase.Even if Kusala Perera 's recent knock was an epic it still to me did not Surpass Lara's effort.

    No batsmen had a greater penchant for registering mammoth scores ,that to with such flourish.Even if Sehwag had the same apetite he did not have Lara's finesse or golden touch.Lara had a phenomenal scoring rate ahead of any great batsmen of his day in test matches.No batsmen scored more double hundreds in his day that to against Australia and Shane Warne.Nonone tore part or was more prolific against Murlitharan as Brian.

    No batsmen equalled Brian's average percentage score of the team's total score after Headley and Bradman.In peak periods he overshadowed any great of his era considering his staggering average percentage score of the team's total score.

    Lara at his best turned or single-handedly won more games for his team than Tendulkar,being more impactful at his best.I find it hard to visualize a great batsmen from nay era who could so single-handedly turn or win games as Brian.

    In a losing cause he overshadowed any batting great with his aggregate or runs and centuries.

    Many opponents rate Lara the best batsmen of his era,ahead of Tendulkar like Jacques Kallis,Glen Mcgrath ,Inzamam Ul Haq,Sead Anwar or even Wasim Akram .Cricino analyst Anatha Narayana ranks Lara as the 2nd best tes batsmen to Bradman.David Gower ranked Lara as his 6th bets cricketer ever,ahead of geniuses like Hammond,Hobbs,Grace,Marshall ,Barnes Imran,Botham and Hutton which is remarkable.

    FLAWS

    However he had flaws which were inconsistency in patches and lack of technical perfection like Gavaskar,Greg Chapell , Tendulkar or even Sobers..This is why bowlers like Alan Donald prized Tendulkar's wicket more and Glen Mcgrath who felt that Lara would always give you more of a chance or a sniff of being dismissed.In many ways Lara was like a more elegant or artistic left -handed version of Sir Viv Richards.Lara, like Viv Richards posessed such natural talent that he hardly needed to compensate it with perfect technique but at times it led to dismisal of both these giants.Unlike Viv and Sachin in test matches.

    Lara did not score a single test hundred against a great genuine fast quickie like **** Donald,Wasim Akram or Waqar Younus and at times succumbed to genuine short pitched stuff.Wasim Akram still rates Viv a harder opponent while most cricketing experts overall rank Tendulkar and Viv ahead of Lara.

    Even if impactful Lara basically championed a losing cause apart from some of his epic knocks.Inzaman and Ponting were far greater match winners statistically and to a certain extent Tendulkar or even Rahul Dravid.

    Lara also did not have such a great statistical record overseas like other greats like Tendulkar,Dravid or even Viv Richards.

    Generally Tendulkar and Viv have been included in all-time test world xi's considerably more than Lara.Viv got 64 votes ,Tendulkar 42 and Lara 25 for selection in all-time test xi.


    BEST PERFORMANCE OF CAREER

    Although he surpassed the world record score twice when scoring 375 and an unbeaten 400 I feel his 688 run s facing Murlitharan in 2003 including a classic 221 ,546 run including an epic 213 and 153 versus Australia in 1999 and his classic 277 at Sydney in 1992-93 were more memorable and impactful and thus bettered those world record performances .I have rarely seen a batsmen so single -handedly turn a series like Lara did against Australia in 1999,dominate a great spinner carrying the entire burden of his team on his shoulders against Sri Lanka in 2003 and take domination to such a crescendo when scoring 277 versus Australia.



    WHERE HE RANKED OVERALL AS BATSMEN AND CRICKETER

    So in the end I wish to give my verdict on where Lara would rank as a batsmen and cricketer

    In pure test cricket there is a case for Lara being ranked the best of all test batsmen considering that Bradman played in an era when bowling standards were not the level they were in the modern times and the Don never faced genuine spin bowling.Of course statistically the Don is a creature from another planet and on another plane but still there were even batsmen in hi days who had better prowess on bad wickets like Trumper,Hobbs and Headley.Mnay experts rank Lara as the best test batsmen after Bradman.Thus below only Bradman as a batsmen in test cricket.

    Considering his impact in terms of opposition played,conditions played in and contribution to team Lara overshadows Tendulkar.No batsmen bore the brunt of team more on his shoulders than Lara after Sir George Headley.Lara overshadowed Tendulkar,Ponting,Greg Chappell and Sobers in term sof scoring rate.However considering ODI performances Lara and Viv would rate overall marginally ahead of Lara and respecting statistics and level of superiority over peers Bradman.To me Lara's greatest rivals amongst batsmen were Walter Hammond and George Headley .Considering Lara was more mercurial Lara may just rank ahead of Headley while he may edge Hammond because he conquered more diverse bowling and shouldered more responsiblity .Thus overall to me only behind Hobbs,Tendulkar,Bradman and Viv as a batsmen.

    Overall as a cricketer I would rank Lara ahead of stalwarts like Gilchrist,Kallis,Botham,Miller,Compton,Hutton,Lill e etc.His closest rivals as a cricketer overall are Walter Hammond,Wasim Akram and Malcolm Marshall.In pure test cricket Lara would overshadow Wasim but may be nosed out by Marshall,as the latter was greater match-winner and more consistent.Considering his impact in 1st class cricket and haul of wickets in tests Hammond may just edge Brian.Overall Lara makes it amongst the top dozen cricketers of all behind Grace,Sobers,Tendulkar,Bradman,Warne Viv Richards,Barnes,Imran and Hammond and in a virtual dead heat with Wasim and Marshall.

  2. #2
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    We breathed a sigh of relief in 1991 when Richards retired.

    Little did we know that when WI came back four years later they would bring a left-handed version of Richards.

  3. #3
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    Please come back here pp viewers Sorry for being late but better late than never.Lara was after tall an immortal cricketer whose like we may never see.Executed strokes that were surrreal and at his best looked as though he was composing a musical symphony ad his strokes were like musical notes of a compsoition.Sheer adjectives cannot describe the sublime nature of his majestic command or pomp at the crease.THere were batsmen who were technically more organized,stylish or punishing but maybe none who surpassed his creative genius or flair.Do come here @ MMHS @Ab Fan @Robert @Junaids @Hitman @Freelance Cricketer @bilal etc.

  4. #4
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    I think he's possibly the most talented batsmen to have played the game. It's a close fight between him and ABD but since Lara is left handed I will give him the edge.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_gamer007 View Post
    I think he's possibly the most talented batsmen to have played the game. It's a close fight between him and ABD but since Lara is left handed I will give him the edge.
    More than Viv in terms of talent?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    We breathed a sigh of relief in 1991 when Richards retired.

    Little did we know that when WI came back four years later they would bring a left-handed version of Richards.
    Who would you prefer in a test team?Was Viv better on bad wickets?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    More than Viv in terms of talent?
    I have only watched footage of Viv and not followed his entire career. From the footage I have watched, I would rate Lara and ABD above Viv in terms of sheer talent.

    Whoever has seen Viv play the game rate him as the best so maybe since I didn't watch as much of Viv, my judgement is biased against him.

  8. #8
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    Was Lara the most talented?

    We make a mistake between most stylish, most productive, most talented & biggest impact on the game.

    Most stylish is always debatable. IMO it's between Lara & Laxman for this era. Lara had that flourish. VVS had ridiculous wrists. I'd find myself watching replays just to figure out why ball A went here but ball B went there from VVS. Lara was an orchestra, VVS a violin soloist. Either could make you weep.

    Viv... Viv was blues& rock n roll. Viv had a swagger. Viv was not cheesy, plastic rock n roll by kids from London... Viv was John Lee Hooker. Viv was Jimi Hendrix- other batsmen might see Viv in action & find themselves just holding hands in awe like Clapton did the first time he saw Jimi.

    Viv was Jimi Hendrix' incendiary Star Spangled Banner or the Stones Street Fighting Man.

    In terms of presence & style I'd go Viv. If you check his record vs the best, vs pace, you cannot fault Viv. But Lara was in a league of his own vs the best spinners of the era, he best spinners of ANY era... That's talent.

    I saw the latter stages of Viv & all of Lara... I've got to say Lara could shred spinners like nobodies business but vs McGrath it was a 50/50 battle all the way. Even when he survived ed it was a close run thing.

    Viv was awesome. Intimidating. Scary. Lara was impressive. Lara was to be admired. Viv was scary. Like a truly fast bowler could be scary. Maybe Hayden could do that too. Very few can. Viv was scary good.

    Viv was... beyond... Like the Gatting ball when he shoved his pad at what he thought was the boundaries of possibility & the ball turned literally into another era...

    Viv could bat you out of existence. You might have players who thought they were Test cricketers. 3 overs to Viv would sort that out. You might have team you thought was ok. A session of Viv could change that.

    Viv defined that era for bowlers. Either you could survive Viv... or you were cannon fodder. If you could get him out - see Lillee '76 Gillete Cup Final or MCG , then you are a genius- yes, there's footage. can't wait for some PP'er to tell me Lillee in '76 was just medium fast & Viv was just hack : facepalm

    Lara more stylish. Viv was overall more effective. Viv could destroy your entire team in a session. It took genius to remove him. It took courage just to take him on. Lara you could bowl to. If you had greatness. make a plan. Viv could remove all plans vs all bowlers.

    EVERY kid wanted to be Viv. Chewing gum, swagger to the crease, twirl that bat, wear no helmet- NO HELMET. Lilee. Thompson. NO HELMET!

    I'll give to to Viv.

    PS. ABD... Honestly a laugh. Not even in the conversation. He'd be embarrassed to be in it.
    Last edited by wrongun; 12th August 2019 at 19:23.

  9. #9
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    WI had great batsmen. Lara is one of the most recent ones among them legends.
    Old era: (before ODIs)
    Sobers, Way ahead of him.
    Weekes, Walcott: are ahead of him.
    Kanhai would be same level.

    New Era: Richards: "Nothing compares to you"
    GG, Chandurpaul, Kallicharan a notch down but not by much.

    Ultra new era: Universe Boss. The name suits him. Lara would be WI boss if we are to compare. That is how I see it.


    Forgive when you are on top. Don't you want to be forgiven?

  10. #10
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    My personal view is that indeed Brian Charles Lara was the most gifted batsman in history , and I strongly believe he was an underachiever — yes forget whatever Lara achieved as a batsman, for me he did not fulfil his potential unlike Tendulkar for instance who reached his full potential.

    Lara if he reached the heights he was capable of and gave ample evidence of his calibre at his best, he could and should have averaged 10 higher than Tendulkar at least and scored more 100s and double 100s in test cricket then anyone.

    As his contemporaries often said, the man was a batting genius — to date no batsman has given me the same excitement and thrill aa watching in full flow the flamboyant strokes of Brian Lara , the rest of the best looked ordinary in comparison.


    "Lack of Form is Temporary, Lack of Class is Permanent" -- dedicated to The Honorable Professor.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majid Khan View Post
    My personal view is that indeed Brian Charles Lara was the most gifted batsman in history , and I strongly believe he was an underachiever — yes forget whatever Lara achieved as a batsman, for me he did not fulfil his potential unlike Tendulkar for instance who reached his full potential.

    Lara if he reached the heights he was capable of and gave ample evidence of his calibre at his best, he could and should have averaged 10 higher than Tendulkar at least and scored more 100s and double 100s in test cricket then anyone.

    As his contemporaries often said, the man was a batting genius — to date no batsman has given me the same excitement and thrill aa watching in full flow the flamboyant strokes of Brian Lara , the rest of the best looked ordinary in comparison.
    Great post .Very well expressed.Totally agree.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majid Khan View Post
    My personal view is that indeed Brian Charles Lara was the most gifted batsman in history , and I strongly believe he was an underachiever — yes forget whatever Lara achieved as a batsman, for me he did not fulfil his potential unlike Tendulkar for instance who reached his full potential.

    Lara if he reached the heights he was capable of and gave ample evidence of his calibre at his best, he could and should have averaged 10 higher than Tendulkar at least and scored more 100s and double 100s in test cricket then anyone.

    As his contemporaries often said, the man was a batting genius — to date no batsman has given me the same excitement and thrill aa watching in full flow the flamboyant strokes of Brian Lara , the rest of the best looked ordinary in comparison.
    Please come here @MMHS

  13. #13
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    Lara was one of the best batsman of all-time. He and Tendulkar were the best batsmen of the 1990s.

    However, Viv Richards has made centuries against all of the best bowlers of his era.

    Viv Richards centuries in test, odi, first-class or List A cricket:
    V Lillee, Thomson, Walker, Gilmour, McDermott, Mallett, Hogg, Pascoe, Alderman, Lawson, Dodemaide, Rackemann.

  14. #14
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    V Imran, Wasim, Abdul Qadir, Sarfaraz, Iqbal Qasim.

    V Hadlee, Danny Morrison.

    V VB John, Ashantha de Mel, Somachandra de Silva.

    V Kapil Dev, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar, Dilip Doshi.

    V Procter, Donald, Garth le Roux, Clive Rice.

    V Botham, Willis, Snow, Underwood, Old, John Lever, Fraser.

    V Gibbs, Sobers, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Colin Croft, Ambrose, Walsh, Roberts, Bishop, Patterson, Sylvester Clarke, Daniel, Moseley, Tony Gray, Winston Davis.

  15. #15
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    Dilley, Merv Hughes.

    Viv Richards 50s and 100s v Lillee and Thomson playing in the same match.

    101 in the 5th test, and 50, 98 in the 6th test of 1975/76 test series.

    89, 54, 59 in 1978/79 World Series cricket.

    140 in 1st test of 1979/80 test series.

    153 not out in the 1979 Benson and Hedges Cup final.

    72 not out, 64, 78, 60, 70 in the 1981/82 Benson and Hedges Cup.

    50 in the 1982 test series.

    95 not out in the 1983 World Cup.

    Viv Richards averaged just under 70 in the two test matches as an opener v Lillee and Thomson, in the 1975/76 test series.

  16. #16
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    Gavaskar has made no centuries and 3 fifties in 21 innings v Lillee in all forms of cricket.

    Tendulkar has made 1 century v Walsh in the 1994/95 Nagpur test.
    Tendulkar has made no centuries v Ambrose, Bishop, Marshall or Patterson. He faced all of these bowlers in test match cricket, or odi cricket, or first-class cricket when he played for Yorkshire in 1992.

    Viv Richards is the best batsman after Bradman. That is my personal opinion.

  17. #17
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    One of the greatest batsmen of all-time. An artist with the bat, and as you said a genius,a magician (IMO) pretty much like the equivalent of Wasim Akram as a batsmen.

    He is an entertainer with the bat once he is set,and his ability to score big daddy hundreds is phenomenal.11 double hundreds I think speaks everything about him. And obviously he was the greatest player of spin bowling. The way he smashed Murali in Sri Lanka conditions is stuff of legend.

    I will put him behind

    Bradman
    Sobers
    Viv
    Sachin

    in my list. So, at no.5.

  18. #18
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    Viv Richards batting average was 72.50 in the 1980 test series, in Pakistan. It was the highest batting average of the series. Imran, Qadir, Sarfraz, and Iqbal Qasim played this series.

    Viv Richards batting average was 35 in the 1986 test series, in Pakistan. It was the second highest after Haynes 37.25. Imran, Wasim, and Qadir played this series.

    Viv Richards batting average was 69.50 in the 1988 test series, in West Indies. It was the highest batting average of the series. Imran, Wasim, and Qadir played this series.

    Viv Richards scored 80 from 39 deliveries v Pakistan in an odi in Gujranwala, in 1985. Imran, Wasim, and Qadir played this match.

  19. #19
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    Sobers test batting average of 23.76 v New Zealand from 12 tests is not very good.

    Viv Richards was a more impact player than Sobers. He also played against some very good players such as Lillee, Imran, Kapil, Hadlee, etc. I have mentioned them before.

  20. #20
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    Lara was for me the most stylish batsman I've seen play since the 90s. I can't think of anyone who was as stylishly distinctive as him. I'm comparing him to guys like Mark Waugh, Saeed Anwar, MoYo. And I saw him play some amazing knocks where he took his team to victory from our of nowhere.

  21. #21
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    Sobers test batting average of 23.76 from 12 tests v New Zealand is a good indicator he performed poorly against them

    Laras test batting average of 34.55 from 17 tests v India is a good indicator he performed below par against them.

    Viv Richard's lowest test batting average is 41.96 v Pakistan, from 16 tests which is still good.

    Tendulkars lowest test batting average is 42.28 v Pakistan, from 18 tests.

    My rankings are:

    1) Bradman.
    2) Viv Richards.
    3) Sobers.
    4) Tendulkar.
    5) Lara.

    Hobbs needs to be considered too.

  22. #22
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    Viv Richards centuries the best bowlers of his era.

    V Lillee - 5 centuries.
    V Thomson - 3 centuries.
    V Hadlee - 4 centuries.
    V Imran - 4 centuries.
    V Kapil Dev - 4 centuries.
    V Botham - 6 centuries.
    V Bedi - 4 centuries.
    V Prasanna - 2 centuries.
    V Chandrasekhar - 3 centuries.
    V Wasim Akram - 1 century.
    V Qadir - 1 century.
    V Sarfaraz Nawaz - 2 centuries.
    V Snow - 2 centuries.
    V Marshall - 2 centuries.
    V Holding - 3 centuries.
    V McDermott - 1 century.
    V Walsh - 1 century.
    V Ambrose - 1 century.
    V Andy Roberts - 1 century.
    V Garner - 1 century.
    V Alderman - 1 century.
    V Willis - 5 centuries.
    V Underwood - 8 centuries.
    V Alan Donald - 1 century.
    V Colin Croft - 1 century.
    V Lance Gibbs - 1 century.
    V Sobers - 1 century.
    V Gilmour - 3 centuries.
    V Pascoe - 1 century.
    V Hogg - 3 centuries.
    V Patterson - 2 centuries.
    V Merv Hughes - 1 century.
    V Garth le Roux - 1 century.
    V Procter - 3 centuries.
    V Daniel - 1 century.
    V Bishop - 1 century.
    V Sylvester Clarke - 2 centuries.
    V Iqbal Qasim - 1 century.
    V Lawson - 3 centuries.
    V Tony Gray - 1 century.
    V Ezra Moseley - 1 century.
    V Angus Fraser - 1 century.
    V Max Walker - 1 century.
    V Mallett - 1 century.
    V Dilley - 5 centuries.
    V Chris Old - 5 centuries.
    V Clive Rice - 1 century.
    V Dodemaide - 1 century.
    V VB John - 1 century.
    V Ashantha de Mel - 1 century.
    V Somachandra de Silva - 1 century.
    V Danny Morrison - 1 century.
    V John Lever - 3 centuries.
    V Winston Davis - 1 century.
    V Rackemann - 1 century.

    Viv Richards averages 86 v Waqar Younis. He played against him in 2 odis and a first-class match.

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    Bradman,Viv & Sachin - the top 3 in that order for me.

    Then it is a contest between Lara, Greg Chappell & AB Develliers for the 4rth spot.

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    I still remember the phainty he gave to Danish kaneria lol

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    Didnt he have like 7 or 8 innings among the 100 greatest innings of all time?

    McGrath , Murali and Warne have gone on record to say that he was the greatest batsman they ever faced. Sangakkara has called him the greatest batsman he has seen. I have read similar praise about Lara from Waqar too somewhere.

    He dominated the two greatest spinners of all time in a way no other batsman of his era could. He was found a bit wanting against pace bowling but not every batsman in Viv Richards.

    If not anything, definitely one of the top 10 batsmen of all time. And as far as a batsman who plays great innings goes, the undoubted number one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Ball View Post
    Didnt he have like 7 or 8 innings among the 100 greatest innings of all time?

    McGrath , Murali and Warne have gone on record to say that he was the greatest batsman they ever faced. Sangakkara has called him the greatest batsman he has seen. I have read similar praise about Lara from Waqar too somewhere.

    He dominated the two greatest spinners of all time in a way no other batsman of his era could. He was found a bit wanting against pace bowling but not every batsman in Viv Richards.

    If not anything, definitely one of the top 10 batsmen of all time. And as far as a batsman who plays great innings goes, the undoubted number one.
    McGrath and Murali did, not Warne.

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    Top 5 Test batsman in my books. Was amazing to watch.

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    My childhood here. One of the 5 greatest batsmen i have ever seen along with Ponting, Tendulkar, Smith and ABDV.

    Best player of spin i have ever seen, terrific against medium fast bowlers. He wasn't the greatest player of express pace bowling but he could play it well enough.

    The 153 and 213 vs Aus are two of the ten greatest test innings ever IMO. And there were many other fantastic ones.

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    Gavaskar averages approximately 21 v Lillee and he faced him in 21 innings. He scored no centuries and 3 fifties against him. He faced him in the Rest of the World v Australia 1971 series, and in a test and odi series. He clearly struggled against him.

    In the 1980/81 test series, in Australia Gavaskar averaged 19.66, from 3 tests. Lillee played all 3 tests of the series.

    In the Benson and Hedges Cup in Australia, in 1980/81 Gavaskar averaged 14.30 from 10 innings with one fifty. Lillee played 14 odis in that series.

    Tendulkar faced Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh in the county matches in 1992 when he played for Yorkshire. He never made one century against them.

    He faced Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop in the 1997 test series. However, Ambrose was about 34 years old then and past his peak. Walsh was about 35 years old. Ian Bishop was a depleted bowler after his back injuries. Tendulkar still failed to make a century in that series.

    Furthermore, Tendulkar faced Marshall, Patterson, Walsh, Ambrose, and Bishop in odi cricket. However, he failed to make a century against any of these bowlers. Tendulkar began to make a few centuries against West Indies post-2000 after all of these had retired.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Who would you prefer in a test team?Was Viv better on bad wickets?
    You could argue that Lara was the better player of good quality spin. Richards better against top pace though Lillee sorted him out a time or two, as Lillee tended to. Both superlative fielders. Richards was the better team man and skipper. I’d prefer Richards for the latter reason.
    Last edited by Robert; 13th August 2019 at 11:13.

  31. #31
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    Tendulkar has made that 1 century v Walsh in the 1994/95 test series, in Nagpur. Ambrose, Bishop, Patterson did not play that series. Marshall had retired much earlier.

  32. #32
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    I agree with Michael Holding that Brian Lara was a better player of spin than Viv Richards. Also, Michael Holding said that Viv Richards was a better player of fast bowling than Brian Lara.

    However these are Viv Richards centuries v the best spin bowlers of his era:

    V Bedi - 4 centuries.
    V Prasanna - 2 centuries.
    V Chandrasekhar - 3 centuries.
    V Qadir - 1 century.
    V Mallett - 1 century.
    V Underwood - 8 centuries. Underwood was a slow left-arm bowler.
    V Lance Gibbs - 1 century.
    V Somachandra de Silva - 1 century.

    Also, Viv Richards scored 142 v Prasanna, Bedi, and Chandrasekhar in March 1976, in the Barbados test which West Indies won.

    So, Viv could play spin well. Lara was better at playing spin than Viv. Overall Viv Richards was a better batsman than Lara.

    Viv Richards has more 50+ scores in cricket than Tendulkar.

  33. #33
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    Viv Richards still managed to make 5 centuries and lots of 50s v Lillee. Also, Lillee was an all-time great bowler.

    Gavaskar failed to make a century v Lillee. Although he has made 3 fifties against him. He faced him in 21 innings. He averages approximately 21 against him.

  34. #34
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    Also, Viv Richards has made 1 century v Iqbal Qasim who has a good test record as a spin bowler.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Sobers test batting average of 23.76 v New Zealand from 12 tests is not very good.

    Viv Richards was a more impact player than Sobers. He also played against some very good players such as Lillee, Imran, Kapil, Hadlee, etc. I have mentioned them before.
    Sobers couldn't be bothered against lesser opposition. He needed good bowlers to fire him up.

    He was arguably the most ‘impact’ player ever to grace a field. England’s greatest bowler Trueman described him as “magic”.

  36. #36
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    Viv Richards is the best attacking batsman I have ever seen against quality bowling.

    Viv Richards made 46 from 45 balls v Pakistan in an odi at Sharjah, in October 1989. Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Qadir, and Mushtaq Ahmed played for Pakistan in this match.

    Viv Richards made a match winning 47 from 48 balls v Pakistan in an odi in the Nehru Cup, in 1989. Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Qadir and Mushtaq Ahmed played for Pakistan in this match.

    However, Viv Richards was 37 years old and past his peak in both matches.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Sobers couldn't be bothered against lesser opposition. He needed good bowlers to fire him up.

    He was arguably the most ‘impact’ player ever to grace a field. England’s greatest bowler Trueman described him as “magic”.
    Sobers struggled against New Zealand and that is why he averages 23.76 with the bat from 12 tests. The fact you say "he could not be bothered against lesser opposition" does not make sense. This is because test batsmen especially of Sobers calibre want to make runs against all opposition. Sobers hit 6 sixes against Malcolm Nash in 1968. This was in a first-class match. This match had less intensity than test matches v New Zealand in which Sobers performed poorly.

  38. #38
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    Sobers was the best cricketer of all-time. Viv Richards was a better batsman than Sobers and his batting had more impact than Sobers. Viv Richards won many matches for Leeward Islands, Somerset, Glamorgan, and West Indies with his batting. That is no disrespect to Sobers.

    Viv Richards scored centuries and fifties v Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Hadlee, Kapil Dev, Marshall, Holding, Ambrose, Walsh, Garner, etc. when they were at their peak.

  39. #39
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    The best batsman of all-time is Bradman.

    Second best batsman of all-time and
    best player of fast-bowling is Viv Richards.

    Tendulkar is an all-time great batsman and was consistent throughout his long career.

    Sobers was an all-time great batsman and the best all-rounder of all-time.

    Lara was an all-time great and made some big scores in first-class and test cricket. Also, he was a very good player of spin.

    My rankings as batsmen.

    1) Bradman.
    2) Viv Richards.
    3) Sobers.
    4) Tendulkar.
    5) Lara.

  40. #40
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    Only two batsmen or should I say batting geniuses have inspired me so much although in different ways that I can keep on complimenting their batting with words never running out - one is Brian Charles Lara and the other no prizes for guessing is his modern day equivalent (right handed version) who has been opening the batting for Pakistan in the last 10-15 years.

    But coming back to Lara, to me having had the privilege of watching Lara batting at his peak in the 90s - no other batsman can match his unique style aesthetically but also the impact he had on match situations, Lara when he was lets say in the mood , played like a man on a mission like he was trying to prove a point and remind people whenever they doubted his abilities, to show them who numero uno is - and even fans like me who earlier in 90s thought momentarily that maybe Tendulkar was better were reminded time and again after witnessing such sublime innings that Lara at his best just had no match as a batsman, he was simply in a league of his own.

    When I said earlier he was an underachiever it’s because the heights that he touched as a batsman at his best no one else has come close to - yet he did not push himself or lacked motivation for whatever reason to reach those heights more consistently which he was well capable of, and it’s remarkable to think how easily within his grasp he had the potential to become an even greater batsman averaging in 60s at least.

    Sometimes it’s not just about quantity but quality - and it might be subjective but few who have experienced watching Lara batting at his best and the highs and thrills that come with it, will have any doubts that the ‘quality’ and art of batting can reach any higher level.

    As for run machines they come and ago in every era , and with due respect to these guys but who remembers Alan Border now as a batsman? Who will remember Alastair Cook’s 10,000 runs or Kallis and have a story to tell their grandchildren I was there that day when he played THAT innings ?

    But the true batting geniuses like Lara and their great performances will always be remembered.
    Last edited by Majid Khan; 13th August 2019 at 13:09.


  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    McGrath and Murali did, not Warne.
    https://youtu.be/_7zSPW6BU0s

    Warne in his most recent interview has rated both Lara and Tendulkar at par as the toughest batsman he faced.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Sobers struggled against New Zealand and that is why he averages 23.76 with the bat from 12 tests. The fact you say "he could not be bothered against lesser opposition" does not make sense. This is because test batsmen especially of Sobers calibre want to make runs against all opposition. Sobers hit 6 sixes against Malcolm Nash in 1968. This was in a first-class match. This match had less intensity than test matches v New Zealand in which Sobers performed poorly.
    So you think Sobers somehow “struggled” against the County Second Eleven standard Kiwis bowlers of his era despite averaging 58 overall totally dominant against Trueman, Statham, Fazal, Davidson, Benaud and McKenzie?

    The only explanation is that the Kiwis posed no challenge to him and he simply couldn’t be bothered.

    Raw stats don’t tell you that much - you need context to explain them.

  43. #43
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    A great batsman and exceptional against spin (the guy played against the best spinners the game has ever seen) but...and sadly there is a but, the way he faded across formats was a slow and long decline, especially in ODIs. I remember the way he jumped about the crease, trying to manufacture shots in 07 and knew he should have gone at least two years earlier. In tests, he became too inconsistent, one moment splicing and dicing like he was 25 again, another falling over at the crease, unable or unwilling to fight for the Windies.

    It was a poor end to a great career.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    The best batsman of all-time is Bradman.

    Second best batsman of all-time and
    best player of fast-bowling is Viv Richards.

    Tendulkar is an all-time great batsman and was consistent throughout his long career.

    Sobers was an all-time great batsman and the best all-rounder of all-time.

    Lara was an all-time great and made some big scores in first-class and test cricket. Also, he was a very good player of spin.

    My rankings as batsmen.

    1) Bradman.
    2) Viv Richards.
    3) Sobers.
    4) Tendulkar.
    5) Lara.
    Are you analyzing only test cricket or also combining performances in ODI's.Considering only test cricket Lara would be 2nd to Bradman as he championed a crisis more than any batting great,registered the highest scores and had the highest average percentage score of a team's total Lara turned more games single-handedly than Viv ,Sobers and Sachin playing for a much weker team than Sobers,Viv or Tendulkar did.Viv was more dominating and better against genuine pace but Lara was better against great fast-medium and spin or on bad wickets.Remember Viv and Sobers played for champion teams while Lara single-handedly carried press of team on his shoulders.

    Combining tests and ODI's Viv and Sachin were ahead of Lara..Richards was more pulverizing and Sachin more impactful.In test cricket Anantha Narayan has placed Lara 2 nd to Bradman in cricinfo cordon analysis in 2009 considering overall match performances.

    Viv wast he most destructive of all who turned the complexion of games better than any batsmen ever but he never had to face hos own quicks like Holding,Garner,Roberts and Marshall.In 1st class cricket Marshal troubled him.At his best after 1976 Viv faced Lille like a champion but without Thomson at his fastest in WSC cricket on or Australian tour of 1979-80.Statistically Greg Chappell and Gavaskar had the best record against genuine pace bowling facing the greats Calypso pace attacks.Gavaskar scored centuries v Roberts.Holding and Marshall from 1975-76 to 1883-84 while Chapell averaged 60 scoring 3 centuries against the great Calypso attack in 1979 in WSC Supertests ,amassing 621 runs.

    Viv was the best match-winner and ODI batsmen of all but not as consistent as Sobers,Lara and Sachin in test cricket or as proven in a crisis.Imagine Viv playing for the team Lara played in or vice -versa or handling the pressure of Tendulkar or Gavaskar.Gavaskar scored more centuries against meritorious bowling than Viv and that too as an opening batsmen.Gavaskar scored more hundres than Viv facing Botham ,Imran and Hadlee and only failed against Lillee

    I agree many great paceman ranked Viv the hardest they ever bowled to and Viv is chosen more than Lara and Tendulkar in all time world xi's by experts but in a stats analysis on merit Lara and Sachin marginally edge him.At his peak Viv was the 2nd best to Bradman like from 1976-81 but overall Tendulkar and Lara surpased him for longevity .Remember the great bowlers faced by Lara and Sachin like Wasim,Waqar,Mcgrath,Donald Bret Lee,etc.

    In the end it is touch and go but Sachin would just edge Viv considering tests and ODI's together.In sole test cricket Viv may rank a whisker below Sachin and Lara.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So you think Sobers somehow “struggled” against the County Second Eleven standard Kiwis bowlers of his era despite averaging 58 overall totally dominant against Trueman, Statham, Fazal, Davidson, Benaud and McKenzie?

    The only explanation is that the Kiwis posed no challenge to him and he simply couldn’t be bothered.

    Raw stats don’t tell you that much - you need context to explain them.
    Sobers test batting average of 23.76 against New Zealand is poor. It's across 12 tests which is a fair sample. The weaker the team is then the more runs batsmen make. Your argument is flawed.

    I am not saying Sobers is not an all-time great batsman. I am saying he performed poorly as a batsman against New Zealand in 12 tests.

    Viv Richards for me was a better batsman than Sobers. You are entitled to your opinion.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So you think Sobers somehow “struggled” against the County Second Eleven standard Kiwis bowlers of his era despite averaging 58 overall totally dominant against Trueman, Statham, Fazal, Davidson, Benaud and McKenzie?

    The only explanation is that the Kiwis posed no challenge to him and he simply couldn’t be bothered.

    Raw stats don’t tell you that much - you need context to explain them.
    Could not agree with you more.Sobers was genius against the greatest or all type of bowlers.Took the likes of Gupte,Benaud,Davidson and Lillee apart at their best.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majid Khan View Post
    Only two batsmen or should I say batting geniuses have inspired me so much although in different ways that I can keep on complimenting their batting with words never running out - one is Brian Charles Lara and the other no prizes for guessing is his modern day equivalent (right handed version) who has been opening the batting for Pakistan in the last 10-15 years.

    But coming back to Lara, to me having had the privilege of watching Lara batting at his peak in the 90s - no other batsman can match his unique style aesthetically but also the impact he had on match situations, Lara when he was lets say in the mood , played like a man on a mission like he was trying to prove a point and remind people whenever they doubted his abilities, to show them who numero uno is - and even fans like me who earlier in 90s thought momentarily that maybe Tendulkar was better were reminded time and again after witnessing such sublime innings that Lara at his best just had no match as a batsman, he was simply in a league of his own.

    When I said earlier he was an underachiever it’s because the heights that he touched as a batsman at his best no one else has come close to - yet he did not push himself or lacked motivation for whatever reason to reach those heights more consistently which he was well capable of, and it’s remarkable to think how easily within his grasp he had the potential to become an even greater batsman averaging in 60s at least.

    Sometimes it’s not just about quantity but quality - and it might be subjective but few who have experienced watching Lara batting at his best and the highs and thrills that come with it, will have any doubts that the ‘quality’ and art of batting can reach any higher level.

    As for run machines they come and ago in every era , and with due respect to these guys but who remembers Alan Border now as a batsman? Who will remember Alastair Cook’s 10,000 runs or Kallis and have a story to tell their grandchildren I was there that day when he played THAT innings ?

    But the true batting geniuses like Lara and their great performances will always be remembered.
    Another brilliant post.You said it all,perfectly.If he wished he could have broken all the records.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    One of the greatest batsmen of all-time. An artist with the bat, and as you said a genius,a magician (IMO) pretty much like the equivalent of Wasim Akram as a batsmen.

    He is an entertainer with the bat once he is set,and his ability to score big daddy hundreds is phenomenal.11 double hundreds I think speaks everything about him. And obviously he was the greatest player of spin bowling. The way he smashed Murali in Sri Lanka conditions is stuff of legend.

    I will put him behind

    Bradman
    Sobers
    Viv
    Sachin

    in my list. So, at no.5.
    Counting tests combined with ODI's or only test cricket?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Viv Richards still managed to make 5 centuries and lots of 50s v Lillee. Also, Lillee was an all-time great bowler.

    Gavaskar failed to make a century v Lillee. Although he has made 3 fifties against him. He faced him in 21 innings. He averages approximately 21 against him.
    Are you forgetting Gavaskar's great centuries facing Holding,Marshall and Roberts-156 at Trinidad and 102 in 1975-76 147 n.o at Guyana in 1983,121 at Delhi ,236 n.o at Chenna in 1983-84 and 90 at Ahmedabad in 1983-84 ?Also his 3 centuries in Pakistan and one against Pakistan in India facing Imran Khan?Gavaskar also faced considerably more pressure.221 by Gavaskar at Oval facing Botham and Wlilis?Morally Gavaskar faced the best bowlers succesfully that too as an opening batsmen.

    Remember in his peak era Lillee faced Lillee but not Thomson at his fastest.Gavaskar scored 3 centuries facing Thomson in 1977-78,slower than his fastest pace.Morally Greg Chappell has the best statistical record against great pace with his performance of scoring 621 run sat average of 69 in 5 supertests in the Carribean in 1979.Facing 4 great quicks is a much harder proposition than facing only one giant.Viv never had to face his own pace quartet in his lifetime.

    Not denying Viv was the king against pace but do not deride Gavaskar's achievements.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrongun View Post
    Was Lara the most talented?

    We make a mistake between most stylish, most productive, most talented & biggest impact on the game.

    Most stylish is always debatable. IMO it's between Lara & Laxman for this era. Lara had that flourish. VVS had ridiculous wrists. I'd find myself watching replays just to figure out why ball A went here but ball B went there from VVS. Lara was an orchestra, VVS a violin soloist. Either could make you weep.

    Viv... Viv was blues& rock n roll. Viv had a swagger. Viv was not cheesy, plastic rock n roll by kids from London... Viv was John Lee Hooker. Viv was Jimi Hendrix- other batsmen might see Viv in action & find themselves just holding hands in awe like Clapton did the first time he saw Jimi.

    Viv was Jimi Hendrix' incendiary Star Spangled Banner or the Stones Street Fighting Man.

    In terms of presence & style I'd go Viv. If you check his record vs the best, vs pace, you cannot fault Viv. But Lara was in a league of his own vs the best spinners of the era, he best spinners of ANY era... That's talent.

    I saw the latter stages of Viv & all of Lara... I've got to say Lara could shred spinners like nobodies business but vs McGrath it was a 50/50 battle all the way. Even when he survived ed it was a close run thing.

    Viv was awesome. Intimidating. Scary. Lara was impressive. Lara was to be admired. Viv was scary. Like a truly fast bowler could be scary. Maybe Hayden could do that too. Very few can. Viv was scary good.

    Viv was... beyond... Like the Gatting ball when he shoved his pad at what he thought was the boundaries of possibility & the ball turned literally into another era...

    Viv could bat you out of existence. You might have players who thought they were Test cricketers. 3 overs to Viv would sort that out. You might have team you thought was ok. A session of Viv could change that.

    Viv defined that era for bowlers. Either you could survive Viv... or you were cannon fodder. If you could get him out - see Lillee '76 Gillete Cup Final or MCG , then you are a genius- yes, there's footage. can't wait for some PP'er to tell me Lillee in '76 was just medium fast & Viv was just hack : facepalm

    Lara more stylish. Viv was overall more effective. Viv could destroy your entire team in a session. It took genius to remove him. It took courage just to take him on. Lara you could bowl to. If you had greatness. make a plan. Viv could remove all plans vs all bowlers.

    EVERY kid wanted to be Viv. Chewing gum, swagger to the crease, twirl that bat, wear no helmet- NO HELMET. Lilee. Thompson. NO HELMET!

    I'll give to to Viv.

    PS. ABD... Honestly a laugh. Not even in the conversation. He'd be embarrassed to be in it.
    Great answer.Still study the videos.Viv is more powerful or punishing but it is Lara who posessed that element of subtle creativity to a marginally higher extent Both were geniuses in dissecting a pace attck but it was Lara who was more the equivalent of a magician by the slenderest of margins executing strokes that were even more surreal.Viv had a better hook but Lara was better in wristy strokes and more effective in manouevering a cricket ball.Only a whisker seperating them but it was Brian who resembled a musical composer more.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Sobers test batting average of 23.76 against New Zealand is poor. It's across 12 tests which is a fair sample. The weaker the team is then the more runs batsmen make. Your argument is flawed.

    I am not saying Sobers is not an all-time great batsman. I am saying he performed poorly as a batsman against New Zealand in 12 tests.

    Viv Richards for me was a better batsman than Sobers. You are entitled to your opinion.
    Please remember Sobers performances v England and Australia playing for rest of the world where he had scores of 183 and 254.Never forget his domination of a better English attack at home and away than Viv facing likes of Trueman and Snow and better performances on bad wickets than Viv like at Kingston v England in 1967-68.In only test cricket it is almost a dead heat but many experts still favour Gary.I may give Viv the nod combing ODI's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Ball View Post
    https://youtu.be/_7zSPW6BU0s

    Warne in his most recent interview has rated both Lara and Tendulkar at par as the toughest batsman he faced.
    Read Warne’s autobiography released last year. He clearly says that Tendulkar is the best batsman he has ever bowled to. An autobiography holds much more weight than a random short video interview.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Are you analyzing only test cricket or also combining performances in ODI's.Considering only test cricket Lara would be 2nd to Bradman as he championed a crisis more than any batting great,registered the highest scores and had the highest average percentage score of a team's total Lara turned more games single-handedly than Viv ,Sobers and Sachin playing for a much weker team than Sobers,Viv or Tendulkar did.Viv was more dominating and better against genuine pace but Lara was better against great fast-medium and spin or on bad wickets.Remember Viv and Sobers played for champion teams while Lara single-handedly carried press of team on his shoulders.

    Combining tests and ODI's Viv and Sachin were ahead of Lara..Richards was more pulverizing and Sachin more impactful.In test cricket Anantha Narayan has placed Lara 2 nd to Bradman in cricinfo cordon analysis in 2009 considering overall match performances.

    Viv wast he most destructive of all who turned the complexion of games better than any batsmen ever but he never had to face hos own quicks like Holding,Garner,Roberts and Marshall.In 1st class cricket Marshal troubled him.At his best after 1976 Viv faced Lille like a champion but without Thomson at his fastest in WSC cricket on or Australian tour of 1979-80.Statistically Greg Chappell and Gavaskar had the best record against genuine pace bowling facing the greats Calypso pace attacks.Gavaskar scored centuries v Roberts.Holding and Marshall from 1975-76 to 1883-84 while Chapell averaged 60 scoring 3 centuries against the great Calypso attack in 1979 in WSC Supertests ,amassing 621 runs.

    Viv was the best match-winner and ODI batsmen of all but not as consistent as Sobers,Lara and Sachin in test cricket or as proven in a crisis.Imagine Viv playing for the team Lara played in or vice -versa or handling the pressure of Tendulkar or Gavaskar.Gavaskar scored more centuries against meritorious bowling than Viv and that too as an opening batsmen.Gavaskar scored more hundres than Viv facing Botham ,Imran and Hadlee and only failed against Lillee

    I agree many great paceman ranked Viv the hardest they ever bowled to and Viv is chosen more than Lara and Tendulkar in all time world xi's by experts but in a stats analysis on merit Lara and Sachin marginally edge him.At his peak Viv was the 2nd best to Bradman like from 1976-81 but overall Tendulkar and Lara surpased him for longevity .Remember the great bowlers faced by Lara and Sachin like Wasim,Waqar,Mcgrath,Donald Bret Lee,etc.

    In the end it is touch and go but Sachin would just edge Viv considering tests and ODI's together.In sole test cricket Viv may rank a whisker below Sachin and Lara.
    Sorry, I disagree with you in a number of things. You have not read my posts properly.

    Tendulkar has made one century against Walsh in the 1994/95 Nagpur test. Ambrose, Walsh, and Patterson did not play that series. Marshall had retired by then.

    Tendulkar faced Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop in the 1997 test series. He scores no centuries.

    Tendulkar faced Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Marshall and Patterson in odis and he made no centuries.

    Tendulkar faced Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop and Marshall when they played for their respective counties in 1992 and he scored no centuries.

    He has made fifties against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, and Patterson.

    Secondly, Viv Richards made runs against Lillee and Thomson when they both played together.

    In the 1975/76 test series in Australia, Viv Richards made 101 in the 5th test and 50, 98 in the 6th test of the series. Viv averaged 69.50 v Lillee and Thomson at his fastest as an opener in the last two tests.

    Also, scored 89, 54, 59 v Lillee and Thomson in the 1978/79 World Series cricket.

    Viv made 140 v Lillee and Thomson in the 1st test of 1979/80 test series.

    Viv made 153 not out v Lillee and Thomson in the 1979 Benson and Hedges Cup final.

    Viv made 50 Lillee and Thomson in the 1982 test series.

    Viv made 72 not out, 64, 78, 60, 70 v Lillee and Thomson in the 1981/82 Benson and Hedges Cup.

    Viv made 95 not out v Lillee and Thomson in the 1983 World Cup.

    Hence, Vìv Richards made 3 hundreds and 12 fifties v Lillee and Thomson when they played together.
    Viv made these runs in 1975/76, 1978/1979, 1979/80, 1981/82, and in 1983.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Please remember Sobers performances v England and Australia playing for rest of the world where he had scores of 183 and 254.Never forget his domination of a better English attack at home and away than Viv facing likes of Trueman and Snow and better performances on bad wickets than Viv like at Kingston v England in 1967-68.In only test cricket it is almost a dead heat but many experts still favour Gary.I may give Viv the nod combing ODI's.
    We can compare the best bowlers that Viv Richards faced v the best bowlers that Sobers faced.

    Viv faced:
    Dennis Lillee - arguably Australia's best fast bowler along with McGrath. An all-time great.

    Hadlee - New Zealand's best fast bowler. An all-time great.

    Kapil Dev - India's best quick bowler.

    Imran Khan - arguably Pakistan's best test bowler. An all-time great.

    Jeffrey Thomson - arguably the fastest bowler of all-time.

    Ian Botham - one of England's best bowlers especially at his peak.

    Underwood - arguably England's best slow-bowler, etc.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Read Warne’s autobiography released last year. He clearly says that Tendulkar is the best batsman he has ever bowled to. An autobiography holds much more weight than a random short video interview.
    Shane Warne also has said: "Viv Richards is the best batsman he has seen across all formats."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Shane Warne also has said: "Viv Richards is the best batsman he has seen across all formats."
    Yes, that’s true. But why are you hell bent on posting about Viv Richards in this thread? Isn’t this thread about Lara?

  57. #57
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    I have respect and high regard for Sobers as a batsman and all-rounder.

    I also have high regard of Bradman, Tendulkar, Lara and Gavaskar as batsmen. However, after watching 35 years of cricket my opinion is that Viv Richards is the second best batsman of all-time. It's his domination of bowlers, consistency in making fifties and hundreds against all the best bowlers of his time. He won so many matches for the teams he played for. He was an entertainer. He was a brilliant player of fast bowling. I admit on occasions he did not perform, but he is only mortal.

    Bradman is definitely the best batsman of all-time for me. Nobody comes near his record. One good measure is to compare him with his contemporaries.
    Last edited by Cricket follower; 13th August 2019 at 16:01. Reason: completion

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Yes, that’s true. But why are you hell bent on posting about Viv Richards in this thread? Isn’t this thread about Lara?
    Part of Harsh's post was "where did he [Lara] rank overall?" That is why the comparisons occur.

    Lara was a great batsman and probably the most stylish left-handed batsman I have ever seen. He did play some great innings too.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Part of Harsh's post was "where did he [Lara] rank overall?" That is why the comparisons occur.

    Lara was a great batsman and probably the most stylish left-handed batsman I have ever seen. He did play some great innings too.
    I may disagree with you Sir,but Neverthless I greatly appreciate your logical or analytical responses mantaining the correct spirit of respecting views of others but still not going around the bend and defending point.No doubt you have astutely defended great Viv,but given due respect to to other giants like Sobers and Lara.Infcat there is case of Viv possibly even going No 1, considering ODI's.

    Still wish to verify is your ranking combining test cricket with ODI's or only asessing test cricket performances?Kindly confirm.Appreciate your sustained effort at replying again.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    I have respect and high regard for Sobers as a batsman and all-rounder.

    I also have high regard of Bradman, Tendulkar, Lara and Gavaskar as batsmen. However, after watching 35 years of cricket my opinion is that Viv Richards is the second best batsman of all-time. It's his domination of bowlers, consistency in making fifties and hundreds against all the best bowlers of his time. He won so many matches for the teams he played for. He was an entertainer. He was a brilliant player of fast bowling. I admit on occasions he did not perform, but he is only mortal.

    Bradman is definitely the best batsman of all-time for me. Nobody comes near his record. One good measure is to compare him with his contemporaries.
    I may disagree with you Sir,but Neverthless I greatly admire your logical or analytical replies mantaining the correct spirit of respecting views of others but still not going around the bend and defending point.No doubt you have astutely defended great Viv,but given due respect to to other giants like Sobers and Lara.Infcat there is case of Viv possibly even going No 1, considering ODI's.

    Was not David Gower more elegant than Lara or stylish or even Alvin Kalicharan?

    Still wish to verify is your ranking combining test cricket with ODI's or only asessing test cricket performances?Kindly confirm.Appreciate your sustained effort at replying again.

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    It's a personal choice. I just found some of Lara's strokes amazing. Gower and Alvin Kallicharran had flair too.

    It is true that if we take Viv Richards first-class, test, odi and List A record then one could say he is arguably the best batsman of all-time.

    My assessment of Viv Richards was in relation to his batting in all forms of cricket.
    I still think he should have done better and sometimes he threw his wicket away. However, that was Viv's way.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    One of the greatest batsmen of all-time. An artist with the bat, and as you said a genius,a magician (IMO) pretty much like the equivalent of Wasim Akram as a batsmen.

    He is an entertainer with the bat once he is set,and his ability to score big daddy hundreds is phenomenal.11 double hundreds I think speaks everything about him. And obviously he was the greatest player of spin bowling. The way he smashed Murali in Sri Lanka conditions is stuff of legend.

    I will put him behind

    Bradman
    Sobers
    Viv
    Sachin

    in my list. So, at no.5.
    Why Viv above Sachin or even Sobers?Also was not Lara the greater champion in a crisis i,have a better strike rate and more impactful than Sobers?In test cricket did he not overshadow Sachin and Viv?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Why Viv above Sachin or even Sobers?Also was not Lara the greater champion in a crisis i,have a better strike rate and more impactful than Sobers?In test cricket did he not overshadow Sachin and Viv?
    That ranking is whilst taking all forms of cricket into consideration. Lara did make some big scores, but he was sometimes inconsistent. His test average is 34.55 from 17 tests v India.

    I expect a test batsman to average at least 40 against all opposition teams. Bradman, Viv Richards and Tendulkar achieved this in test cricket. Lara and Sobers did not. Some of the big scores Lara made were in drawn matches.
    Last edited by Cricket follower; 13th August 2019 at 16:54. Reason: completion

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    That ranking is whilst taking all forms of cricket into consideration. Lara did make some big scores, but he was sometimes inconsistent. His test average is 34.55 from 17 tests v India.

    I expect a test batsman to average at least 40 against all opposition teams. Bradman, Viv Richards and Tendulkar achieved this in test cricket. Lara and Sobers did not. Some of the big scores Lara made were in drawn matches.
    However did he not play fot the weakest of batting sides and also have highest average percentage score out of team's total?Also outstanding strike rate and set of mammoth scores more than any of the others?

  65. #65
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    He should be ranked inside the top 10 in both formats in my opinion.

    From players I have seen

    Tests
    Sachin
    Ponting
    Lara

    ODI
    Sachin
    Ponting
    Bevan
    Lara

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    However did he not play fot the weakest of batting sides and also have highest average percentage score out of team's total?Also outstanding strike rate and set of mammoth scores more than any of the others?

    Lara did play in a weaker team than Viv Richards. However, a batsman still needs to perform and make runs, especially when your team needs runs from you.

    How many runs would Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Kohli, Gavaskar, Bradman, Sobers make on a fast Perth pitch v Thomson at his fastest with Lillee?

    Examples of Viv Richards winning innings:

    204 for Somerset v John Snow playing for Sussex, in 1977. County Championship. Somerset won.

    53 for Somerset v Jeffrey Thomson and Dymock playing for Australia, in 1977. Three day first-class match. Somerset won.

    106 for Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands v Holding playing for Jamaica, in 1981. Shell Shield.Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands won.

    82 for Somerset v Holding playing for Lancashire, in 1981. County Championship. Somerset won.

    93 for Somerset v Marshall playing for Hampshire, in 1981. John Players League. Somerset won.

    These are only 5 examples. There are many others.

  67. #67
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    Lara is the most talented batsmen I've seen, but lacking in discipline when compared with Tendulkar.

    Kohli, Smith, Ponting, etc are a rung below them imo.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Lara did play in a weaker team than Viv Richards. However, a batsman still needs to perform and make runs, especially when your team needs runs from you.

    How many runs would Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Kohli, Gavaskar, Bradman, Sobers make on a fast Perth pitch v Thomson at his fastest with Lillee?

    Examples of Viv Richards winning innings:

    204 for Somerset v John Snow playing for Sussex, in 1977. County Championship. Somerset won.

    53 for Somerset v Jeffrey Thomson and Dymock playing for Australia, in 1977. Three day first-class match. Somerset won.

    106 for Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands v Holding playing for Jamaica, in 1981. Shell Shield.Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands won.

    82 for Somerset v Holding playing for Lancashire, in 1981. County Championship. Somerset won.

    93 for Somerset v Marshall playing for Hampshire, in 1981. John Players League. Somerset won.

    These are only 5 examples. There are many others.
    Lara and Tendulkar faced quicks such as Akram, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Warne, Muraltharan.

    Viv Richards faced Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Akram, Waqar, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil Dev, Procter, Botham, Snow. He also faced Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Patterson, Colin Croft, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Tony Gray, Willis, Donald, Underwood, Qadir, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar, Garth le Roux, etc.

    Also, Viv made hundreds against all these bowlers. He only played Waqar Younis in 2 odis and a first-class match between Glamorgan and Surrey.

    Viv Richards averages 93 in the two odis Waqar played against him. Wasim, Qadir, Imran, and Mushtaq Ahmed played these two odis too.

    Overall Viv Richards averages 86 in the matches Waqar played against him.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Lara and Tendulkar faced quicks such as Akram, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Warne, Muraltharan.

    Viv Richards faced Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Akram, Waqar, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil Dev, Procter, Botham, Snow. He also faced Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Patterson, Colin Croft, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Tony Gray, Willis, Donald, Underwood, Qadir, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar, Garth le Roux, etc.

    Also, Viv made hundreds against all these bowlers. He only played Waqar Younis in 2 odis and a first-class match between Glamorgan and Surrey.

    Viv Richards averages 93 in the two odis Waqar played against him. Wasim, Qadir, Imran, and Mushtaq Ahmed played these two odis too.

    Overall Viv Richards averages 86 in the matches Waqar played against him.
    I meant quicks and spinners, not just quicks.

  70. #70
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    Add Kumble too in the list of bowlers which Lara faced. Tendulkar might have faced him in Indian domestic cricket.
    Last edited by Cricket follower; 13th August 2019 at 19:30. Reason: completion

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Lara and Tendulkar faced quicks such as Akram, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Warne, Muraltharan.

    Viv Richards faced Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Akram, Waqar, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil Dev, Procter, Botham, Snow. He also faced Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Patterson, Colin Croft, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Tony Gray, Willis, Donald, Underwood, Qadir, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar, Garth le Roux, etc.

    Also, Viv made hundreds against all these bowlers. He only played Waqar Younis in 2 odis and a first-class match between Glamorgan and Surrey.

    Viv Richards averages 93 in the two odis Waqar played against him. Wasim, Qadir, Imran, and Mushtaq Ahmed played these two odis too.

    Overall Viv Richards averages 86 in the matches Waqar played against him.
    You forgot alan Donald,Bret Lee,Ian Bishop,Shane bond and Shoaib Akhtar who bowled against both Tendulkar and Lara.Devastating pace bowlers.Also zfannie devillers ,Craig McDermott and Merv Hughes.Need to add them to list.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Lara did play in a weaker team than Viv Richards. However, a batsman still needs to perform and make runs, especially when your team needs runs from you.

    How many runs would Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Kohli, Gavaskar, Bradman, Sobers make on a fast Perth pitch v Thomson at his fastest with Lillee?

    Examples of Viv Richards winning innings:

    204 for Somerset v John Snow playing for Sussex, in 1977. County Championship. Somerset won.

    53 for Somerset v Jeffrey Thomson and Dymock playing for Australia, in 1977. Three day first-class match. Somerset won.

    106 for Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands v Holding playing for Jamaica, in 1981. Shell Shield.Combined Leeward Islands and Windward Islands won.

    82 for Somerset v Holding playing for Lancashire, in 1981. County Championship. Somerset won.

    93 for Somerset v Marshall playing for Hampshire, in 1981. John Players League. Somerset won.

    These are only 5 examples. There are many others.
    Thiese are still generally examples of first class cricket and not international version let alone test cricket .

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Thiese are still generally examples of first class cricket and not international version let alone test cricket .
    Harsh I do not understand your prospective.
    Firstly, there is a misconception that Viv Richards never faced his own West Indian bowlers. Then the second misconception is that he never made runs against them.

    How could have Viv Richards played against Michael Holding and Malcolm Marshall in an international match when they all played for West Indies?

    Secondly, I have given you a few examples. Did Tendulkar make a century in any format of cricket v Ambrose, Bishop, Marshall or Patterson?
    Did Gavaskar make a century against Dennis Lillee?
    Sobers made 254 for Rest of the World v Australia in 1971/72 and that was regarded by many as the best innings by a non-Australian batsman on Australian soil. Dennis Lillee played the match. The match has first-class status.

    Great batsman perform in odis, tests, first-class and ListA cricket. Look at Bradman's first-class and test record. Bradman averages 99.94 in tests. He averages 95.14 in first-class cricket.

    Malcolm Marshall performed against every team. His test bowling average is:
    19.18 v England.
    22.52 v Australia.
    21.99 v India.
    21.53 v New Zealand.
    20.70 v Pakistan.
    Marshalls overall test bowling average of 20.95 is excellent.
    Malcolm Marshall has also taken 1651 first-class wickets at 19.10.

    I rate Malcolm Marshall as the best test fast bowler of all time.

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    The greatest left hander to play the game. The way he could dominate a attack and bat for long periods was unreal.

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    Whatever you can name Lara with, (For example: Classy, Stylish etc.) add a degree or two to it and it becomes Viv.

    Noone can be compared with Viv's name. That is Confidence. Whatever confidence other cricketers have, it would never amount to what Viv had. Viv rivaled Mohammad Ali at his prime "Confidence". That is GOAT stuff. That is Michael Jordan stuff. Once in a lifetime stuff. That is a gift only very few possess.

    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." Iron Mike. That is confidence. Supreme confidence who put fear in opponents after the first hit.
    Last edited by BD-fan; 14th August 2019 at 00:10.


    Forgive when you are on top. Don't you want to be forgiven?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Thiese are still generally examples of first class cricket and not international version let alone test cricket .
    Viv Richards faced more fast bowlers than Tendulkar and Lara and made at least a century against nearly all of them.

    Viv faced:

    From Australia: Lillee, Thomson, Hogg, Pascoe, McDermott, Hughes, Lawson, Dodemaide, Gilmour, Walker, Rackemann.

    From New Zealand: Hadlee and Danny Morrison.

    From India: Kapil Dev.

    From Sri Lanka: Ashantha de Mel, VB John.

    From Pakistan: Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Sarfraz Nawaz, Waqar Younis.

    From England: Willis, Snow, Botham, John Lever, Hendricks, Old, Dilley, Fraser. I will not include Devon Malcolm and Syd Lawrence because their international record is not very good.

    From South Africa: Procter, Garth le Roux, Donald.

    From West Indies: Holding, Marshall, Ambrose, Roberts, Garner, Colin Croft, Walsh, Bishop, Patterson, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Tony Gray, Winston Davis, Ezra Moseley.

    There are 45 fast and/or fast-medium bowlers Viv Richards faced who have at least good bowling records.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD-fan View Post
    Whatever you can name Lara with, (For example: Classy, Stylish etc.) add a degree or two to it and it becomes Viv.

    Noone can be compared with Viv's name. That is Confidence. Whatever confidence other cricketers have, it would never amount to what Viv had. Viv rivaled Mohammad Ali at his prime "Confidence". That is GOAT stuff. That is Michael Jordan stuff. Once in a lifetime stuff. That is a gift only very few possess.

    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." Iron Mike. That is confidence. Supreme confidence who put fear in opponents after the first hit.
    Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Clive Lloyd, Ian Chappell, Sunil Gavaskar, Sachin Tendulkar, Shane Warne, Richie Benaud, Geoff Boycott, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Ian Botham and many others rate Viv Richards very highly.

    Sunil Gavaskar said something along the lines: "if we had not of got Viv out then West Indies would have won".

    Viv Richards played in an era with faster wickets and lots of fast bowlers. Bats were smaller, boundaries were further and there were no fielding restrictions.

    Viv Richards made a match winning 80 from 39 balls v Pakistan in an odi, in 1985, in Gujranwala. Imran Khan, Wasim Akram and Abdul Qadir played that match. Three of Pakistan's all-time best bowlers. Mohsin Kamal, Tauseef Ahmed and Mudassar Nawaz were the other bowlers for Pakistan in this match.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Viv Richards faced more fast bowlers than Tendulkar and Lara and made at least a century against nearly all of them.

    Viv faced:

    From Australia: Lillee, Thomson, Hogg, Pascoe, McDermott, Hughes, Lawson, Dodemaide, Gilmour, Walker, Rackemann.

    From New Zealand: Hadlee and Danny Morrison.

    From India: Kapil Dev.

    From Sri Lanka: Ashantha de Mel, VB John.

    From Pakistan: Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Sarfraz Nawaz, Waqar Younis.

    From England: Willis, Snow, Botham, John Lever, Hendricks, Old, Dilley, Fraser. I will not include Devon Malcolm and Syd Lawrence because their international record is not very good.

    From South Africa: Procter, Garth le Roux, Donald.

    From West Indies: Holding, Marshall, Ambrose, Roberts, Garner, Colin Croft, Walsh, Bishop, Patterson, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Tony Gray, Winston Davis, Ezra Moseley.

    There are 45 fast and/or fast-medium bowlers Viv Richards faced who have at least good bowling records.
    Add Terry Alderman to the list of fast and/or fast-medium bowlers Viv Richards faced.
    Last edited by Cricket follower; 14th August 2019 at 00:33. Reason: completion

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricket follower View Post
    Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Clive Lloyd, Ian Chappell, Sunil Gavaskar, Sachin Tendulkar, Shane Warne, Richie Benaud, Geoff Boycott, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Ian Botham and many others rate Viv Richards very highly.

    Sunil Gavaskar said something along the lines: "if we had not of got Viv out then West Indies would have won".

    Viv Richards played in an era with faster wickets and lots of fast bowlers. Bats were smaller, boundaries were further and there were no fielding restrictions.

    Viv Richards made a match winning 80 from 39 balls v Pakistan in an odi, in 1985, in Gujranwala. Imran Khan, Wasim Akram and Abdul Qadir played that match. Three of Pakistan's all-time best bowlers. Mohsin Kamal, Tauseef Ahmed and Mudassar Nawaz were the other bowlers for Pakistan in this match.
    I meant Sunil Gavaskar said about the 1983 World Cup final that if they had not got Viv out West Indies would have won.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD-fan View Post
    Whatever you can name Lara with, (For example: Classy, Stylish etc.) add a degree or two to it and it becomes Viv.

    Noone can be compared with Viv's name. That is Confidence. Whatever confidence other cricketers have, it would never amount to what Viv had. Viv rivaled Mohammad Ali at his prime "Confidence". That is GOAT stuff. That is Michael Jordan stuff. Once in a lifetime stuff. That is a gift only very few possess.

    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." Iron Mike. That is confidence. Supreme confidence who put fear in opponents after the first hit.
    Viv made a hundred in 1985 v Patrick Patterson. The next year Patterson terrorized the English team in West Indies. Gooch said he feared for his life against Patterson in that series.

    Viv made a century in 1975, 1981, and 1985 v Michael Holding. That is at the start of Holdings career, during his peak and near the end of his career.

    Viv made 101, 50, 98, 30 and averaged 69.75 as an opener in the last two tests of the 1975/76 test series v Lillee and Jeffrey Thomson, in Australia. That takes courage. Thomson was bowling at his fastest.


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