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  1. #1
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    What is or has been India's legacy to the world?

    I will be generous here and allow all versions of 'India' so that would include past and present including current states like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc. Basically the subcontinent.

    When we talk about my country: England, it would be a very easy topic, but I am struggling a little when it comes to India. The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest. It's a good starting pont. Anyone got any better suggestions?


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  2. #2
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    Concept of jero.

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    The one run by Chaiwala with fascist agenda.

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    1. Yoga (no explanation needed)

    2. Language. (Sanskrit is considered the mother of all Indo-European languages)

    3. Architecture, Arts, Astrology etc.

    Not as empty as you'd think.

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    Sanskrit is the mother of all Indic languages not Indo-European.

    If you look at the language family tree, it splits up into a number of branches such as Germanic for German, English, etc. Another branch is the Latin branch, making up Spanish, French, Italian, etc.

    The Indo-Iranian branch splits up further into Indic, Iranian and Dardic. So in the Iranian branch, you get languages such as Pashto and Farsi.

  6. #6
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    All civilisations have had their own arts and architecture.

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    Buddhism should be top in terms of influence, moreover a birthplace to some major religions and philosophies.

    Concept of zero by Aryabhata...major invention because of its central role in mathematics.

    Chess during Gupta empire, my favorite invention from India

    Yoga, languages

    Maths, science, medicine we had some greats in these fields in ancient times. If you limit yourself to maths, there will be a few ancient Indian mathematicians in the all time greats discussion, might require a separate thread for that.

    Accomplishments in civil engineering, art, architecture, metallurgy, culture etc but all civilizations had their unique versions.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    1. Yoga (no explanation needed)

    2. Language. (Sanskrit is considered the mother of all Indo-European languages)

    3. Architecture, Arts, Astrology etc.

    Not as empty as you'd think.
    Yoga I will give you. It is an unheralded gem which has never truly been appreciated as it should.

    Architecture? Where is it in India? They can't even put cables underground.

    Language and arts aren't exclusive to India. If anything, today's Indians are speaking English rather than Sanskrit, wouldn't you agree?


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Yoga I will give you. It is an unheralded gem which has never truly been appreciated as it should.

    Architecture? Where is it in India? They can't even put cables underground.

    Language and arts aren't exclusive to India. If anything, today's Indians are speaking English rather than Sanskrit, wouldn't you agree?
    Indus valley civilization is believed to be the birth place of modern day town building. And sanskrit originated in India is considered an Indian language which is used as the base for the creation of many Indo-European languages.

  10. #10
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    Buddhism.

    Food’s good.

    Sachiiiiiiiiiiiiin!!!!!!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Architecture? Where is it in India? They can't even put cables underground.
    There is a lot of architecture in India, a lot of variety as well. From the rock cut temples of Tamil Nadu to the Islamic architecture up north. Buddhist stupas and caves, Jain monasteries, ancient temples in Odisha and Maharashtra, lots of history. India alone has more UNESCO world heritage sites than your country England . Maybe you can begin by exploring them in the link below.

    https://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/in

    Language and arts aren't exclusive to India. If anything, today's Indians are speaking English rather than Sanskrit, wouldn't you agree?
    Sanskrit is dead but Tamil is the oldest living language in the world. But I have to agree arts and languages aren't exclusive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Buddhism.

    Food’s good.

    Sachiiiiiiiiiiiiin!!!!!!!
    Buddhism is now associated more with the far eastern countries such as China and Thailand. India itself is more associated with Hinduism which no one outside of India actually understands clearly.

    The food which western palates have grown up with was probably Pakistan inspired and in fact came to India via the Mughal empire, which also provided India's one wonder of the world, the Taj Mahal.

    Sachin? We Brits brought cricket to India.


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    Coin minting
    The art and patronage of the likes of hafez and gohar
    The amazing gardens of Kashmir
    The first live rockets for battle
    The pacifist attitude to resistance
    The co existence of different faiths without the mass conversion of anyone


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

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    Gandhi's philosophy of non-violence. India may have moved away from the path of the great man, but several others in far away places found success using his formula, like MLK Jr, Mandela, Desmond Tutu etc.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    Indus valley civilization is believed to be the birth place of modern day town building. And sanskrit originated in India is considered an Indian language which is used as the base for the creation of many Indo-European languages.
    Property of Pakistan.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddaser View Post
    Property of Pakistan.
    Area-wise more portion of that civilization was based in present day India. Rakhigarhi, Dholavira, Kalibangan, Lothal etc are very important sites based in India, Rakhigarhi (Haryana) is the biggest and most important excavation site of that civilization for researchers.
    Last edited by Swashbuckler; 20th October 2019 at 18:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddaser View Post
    Property of Pakistan.
    What Pakistan? There was no place called Pakistan before 1947. Bharat has been here since thousand of years.
    If you think india is just 70 years old country then there is nothing to discuss.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I will be generous here and allow all versions of 'India' so that would include past and present including current states like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc. Basically the subcontinent.

    When we talk about my country: England, it would be a very easy topic, but I am struggling a little when it comes to India. The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest. It's a good starting pont. Anyone got any better suggestions?
    Zero. The concept of rational number. First General solution of the 2d degree equation. Power series method. Panini's astadhyai byakoron is believed to be the first written grammar.
    Last edited by anikrc1; 20th October 2019 at 18:26.

  19. #19
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    The one genuinely Indian thing that springs to mind is how Ashoka the Great (the Mauryan King) spread Buddhism all over the Eastern world by sending emissaries everywhere. Today, much of the Far East and Sri Lanka have huge Buddhist populations and influence.

    Nice little mini-documentary about it -



    All these other things like architecture, good food, etc were mostly brought by foreigners.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akki malhotra View Post
    What Pakistan? There was no place called Pakistan before 1947. Bharat has been here since thousand of years.
    If you think india is just 70 years old country then there is nothing to discuss.
    India is NOT a country but a continent and Bharat has not existed for thousands of years.

    People of Indus valley didn't call themselves Indian or Bharati for that matter.

    Go check a map of the world. Pakistan is there and Indus valley runs straight through the middle of it. The indigenous people of the Indus valley are still there and rightful claimers of it.

    Don't claim what isn't yours.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    Area-wise more portion of that civilization was based in present day India. Rakhigarhi, Dholavira, Kalibangan, Lothal etc are very important sites based in India, Rakhigarhi (Haryana) is the biggest and most important excavation site of that civilization for researchers.
    You sure about that? Indus Valley runs straight through the middle of Pakistan.

    Name:  indus-valley-civilization-map.jpg
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  22. #22
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    That map is from India before you ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddaser View Post
    India is NOT a country but a continent and Bharat has not existed for thousands of years.

    People of Indus valley didn't call themselves Indian or Bharati for that matter.

    Go check a map of the world. Pakistan is there and Indus valley runs straight through the middle of it. The indigenous people of the Indus valley are still there and rightful claimers of it.

    Don't claim what isn't yours.
    Where was Columbus to sailing to, if India didn’t exist? Why did he name the natives of America, Indians?

    People often confuse the terms country, nation and a state. Country is a geographical term.

    Was India a country as defined by a geography? Yes. Greeks and Persians and Arabs and Europeans used it for thousands of years.

    India is also a nation as defined by common cultural norms and behaviors. Outsiders recognized common patterns & thus called the people of the nation Hindus. And the insiders too recognized common patterns and called the nation from Kashmir to Kanyakumari as a single cultural unit called the Bharat. The two ends of India - name Kashmir comes from sage Kashyapa and Kanyakumari comes from the goddess Parvati - both important elements of Hinduism. The Pandits of Kashmir chant the exact same Vedas in the exact same order of words as in any other part of India. And across India we revel in Ramayana and Mahabharata. All of these make us a nation.

    Has India been a sovereign state - as defined by common political systems - all the time? No. In fact, none of the major countries of today existed as a nation state a few centuries ago. The concept of a nation state is only about 3 centuries old. There have been rise and fall of empires that have ruled a chunk of the country. Sometimes the political union was made and other times it was unmade. That was true for every other civilization. They just differ on how long they have stayed together in political terms.

    While country and nation are fairly static entities, a state is a very fluid entity. Even 70 years ago, we didn’t have many parts of present day India as part of the present political union. We added Kashmir, Hyderabad, Junagadh, Manipur, Tripura, Goa and Sikkim to our political union. Just because the union increased in size since 1947, mean that our union changed in character? We added Sikkim only in the 1970s and Siachen glacier in 1980s. Does that mean our state didn’t exist before then?

    For most of Indian history, the political union was not very important. The nation was united more by social systems than political systems. Whoever rules at the top has always been skating at the surface.

    It's unfortunate thing In history that people associated themselves with indus valley civilization destroyed it and got converted to some other religions.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    Area-wise more portion of that civilization was based in present day India. Rakhigarhi, Dholavira, Kalibangan, Lothal etc are very important sites based in India, Rakhigarhi (Haryana) is the biggest and most important excavation site of that civilization for researchers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muddaser View Post
    India is NOT a country but a continent and Bharat has not existed for thousands of years.

    People of Indus valley didn't call themselves Indian or Bharati for that matter.

    Go check a map of the world. Pakistan is there and Indus valley runs straight through the middle of it. The indigenous people of the Indus valley are still there and rightful claimers of it.

    Don't claim what isn't yours.
    The indigenous people of the Indus Valley were NOT modern-day 'Indians', they actually vanished thousands of years ago. They were replaced by Caucasian invaders, who are modern-day 'Indians'. India is a continent made up of many different cultures and nations, who were every now and then, occupied the entire sub-continent to form a larger nation. Modern-Day India is the first time the nations of India voluntarily formed a union.

    As far as anyone's concerned, the Indus Valley is absolutely centred on "Pakistan" now. The culture or origins of those people have nothing to do with modern-day Indians or Pakistanis, but the almost entirety of their lands now reside inside Pakistan.
    Last edited by hussain.r97; 20th October 2019 at 18:41.


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  25. #25
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    All nations have helped shape the world it is today. For example, modern science is a where it is today thanks to the Indians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Europeans, etc. They have all left their legacy. We wouldn’t have a microchip without any of these great civilisations.

  26. #26
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    Dont insult others - make your point but dont insult.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akki malhotra View Post
    Where was Columbus to sailing to, if India didn’t exist? Why did he name the natives of America, Indians?

    People often confuse the terms country, nation and a state. Country is a geographical term.

    Was India a country as defined by a geography? Yes. Greeks and Persians and Arabs and Europeans used it for thousands of years.

    India is also a nation as defined by common cultural norms and behaviors. Outsiders recognized common patterns & thus called the people of the nation Hindus. And the insiders too recognized common patterns and called the nation from Kashmir to Kanyakumari as a single cultural unit called the Bharat. The two ends of India - name Kashmir comes from sage Kashyapa and Kanyakumari comes from the goddess Parvati - both important elements of Hinduism. The Pandits of Kashmir chant the exact same Vedas in the exact same order of words as in any other part of India. And across India we revel in Ramayana and Mahabharata. All of these make us a nation.

    Has India been a sovereign state - as defined by common political systems - all the time? No. In fact, none of the major countries of today existed as a nation state a few centuries ago. The concept of a nation state is only about 3 centuries old. There have been rise and fall of empires that have ruled a chunk of the country. Sometimes the political union was made and other times it was unmade. That was true for every other civilization. They just differ on how long they have stayed together in political terms.

    While country and nation are fairly static entities, a state is a very fluid entity. Even 70 years ago, we didn’t have many parts of present day India as part of the present political union. We added Kashmir, Hyderabad, Junagadh, Manipur, Tripura, Goa and Sikkim to our political union. Just because the union increased in size since 1947, mean that our union changed in character? We added Sikkim only in the 1970s and Siachen glacier in 1980s. Does that mean our state didn’t exist before then?

    For most of Indian history, the political union was not very important. The nation was united more by social systems than political systems. Whoever rules at the top has always been skating at the surface.

    It's unfortunate thing In history that people associated themselves with indus valley civilization destroyed it and got converted to some other religions.
    India is as much a country as Africa or Europe.

  28. #28
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    No one can ignore the contribution of india in field of medicine.

    Shusrutha is considered even now by western researchers as father of modern surgery. There are reports of him performing major surgeries in ancient times.

    Ayurveda is worldwide known now and researched due to natural ways of treating illness.

    I guess everyone will know or heard about the Kamasutra and this is so popular in western countries

    In field of technology , Srinivas ramanujan a genius mathematician and cv Raman to name a few.

    The most significant is indian civilisation is known to be the wealthiest ever in the world. Before the Mughals and later Europeans plundered and created havoc across the subcontinent.

    So reality is the invaders are ones who need to ponder on what their achievements were ?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddaser View Post
    You sure about that? Indus Valley runs straight through the middle of Pakistan.

    Name:  indus-valley-civilization-map.jpg
Views: 780
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    IVC covers a large region of Pakistan almost the entirety, in India % area-wise not as prominent but that itself is a huge area covering Rajasthan, Gujarat, Haryana, Punjab, parts of UP, MP, Indian landmass is huge in area. There are more IVC sites in India than Pakistan, you can check that for yourself. Dig deeper at the sites I mentioned in my previous post, all of them major centres. New sites are being discovered in India in recent times even as far away as Maharashtra, it is much larger than previously thought. Harappa, Mohenjodaro were first to be excavated that I agree. I don't intend to make this an Indo-Pak matter, just want to present facts.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    The indigenous people of the Indus Valley were NOT modern-day 'Indians', they actually vanished thousands of years ago. They were replaced by Caucasian invaders, who are modern-day 'Indians'.
    If you believe in the Aryan migration theory those IVC people were Dravidians. You can do some research on the Harappan-Dravidian links if you are interested. How else can you explain the Brahui language in Balochistan which is of Dravidian origin? Similarity with Tamil in a land 2000 km away from South India, strange.

    As far as anyone's concerned, the Indus Valley is absolutely centred on "Pakistan" now. The culture or origins of those people have nothing to do with modern-day Indians or Pakistanis, but the almost entirety of their lands now reside inside Pakistan.
    Inaccurate. It wasn't entirely within Pakistan, not even close. Major sites in India and Afghanistan to a lesser extent. If they spoke a Dravidian language surely there must be some cultural contact with modern day India and Pakistan. Image of Pashupati found on the seals is proto-Shiva, a central God in Hinduism. We can't say they have nothing to do with us, history doesn't work that way. We are all linked in some way or the other.
    Last edited by Swashbuckler; 20th October 2019 at 19:20.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    Gandhi's philosophy of non-violence. India may have moved away from the path of the great man, but several others in far away places found success using his formula, like MLK Jr, Mandela, Desmond Tutu etc.
    This is the greatest irony surely. Most of the biggest contributions mentioned in this thread, whether leaders such as Gandhi, or philosphies such as Buddhism are more recognised outside of India than in India itself. Gandhi is reviled by Hindu nationalists, and if architecture is to be attributed to India, why is much of India such a mess?

    Would like to hear champions of India on this site give their contributions, would provide another perspective.
    @cricketjoshila @Mamoon @troodon


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    This is the greatest irony surely. Most of the biggest contributions mentioned in this thread, whether leaders such as Gandhi, or philosphies such as Buddhism are more recognised outside of India than in India itself. Gandhi is reviled by Hindu nationalists, and if architecture is to be attributed to India, why is much of India such a mess?

    Would like to hear champions of India on this site give their contributions, would provide another perspective.
    @cricketjoshila @Mamoon @troodon
    I don't think you are sure of what you want. Are you talking about the western perception of India or was your question about the actual contributions of India to the world?

    Perception of something and reality are actually 2 different things.

    For example if I ask you what is the legacy of British Pakistanis, I am sure there are plenty of great contributors in the fields of medicine,economics,art,sports etc but the world perception of the community is usually that they live on welfare, get radicalized etc. which is totally wrong
    Last edited by Local.Dada; 20th October 2019 at 19:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Buddhism is now associated more with the far eastern countries such as China and Thailand. India itself is more associated with Hinduism which no one outside of India actually understands clearly.
    Ours was a Buddhist society a long time back, we spread Buddhism to East Asia. Then it declined in 8th century, right now India may be more associated with Hinduism but Buddhism has an important place. Majority holy sites in India, monasteries are thriving, Buddhist education is big, centres of learning, many (especially lower castes) converting to the religion. Even Hindus worship Buddha as an avtar, India is still the spiritual home for Buddhism. Why do you think Dalai Lama set up shop in India in the early 60s when there were so many other alternatives? Many international scholars come to India to complete their religious education, Gaya is the Mecca of Buddhism.
    Last edited by Swashbuckler; 20th October 2019 at 19:54.

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    @Cpt. Rishwat are you talking about perception? People may associate Buddhism with China but is the religion practiced there? Are monks allowed to conduct their religious duties? Perceptions may sometimes be deceiving.

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    This thread is in poor taste so I won’t take the bait and keep my response brief.

    India’s greatest gift to the world is it’s rich and exotic culture. India has a unique identity unlike other subcontinent countries who have struggled to differentiate their culture from India’s and form their own respective identities.

    India’s corporate rise in recent decades has helped change the oriental stereotypes of snake charmers and flying carpets into genuine appreciation and admiration of a truly wonderful land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    I don't think you are sure of what you want. Are you talking about the western perception of India or was your question about the actual contributions of India to the world?

    Perception of something and reality are actually 2 different things.

    For example if I ask you what is the legacy of British Pakistanis, I am sure there are plenty of great contributors in the fields of medicine,economics,art,sports etc but the world perception of the community is usually that they live on welfare, get radicalized etc. which is totally wrong
    Well I am a westerner so by default I will give you the western perception of India. Are you saying it is wrong? Is India viewed differently in other parts of the world?


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Well I am a westerner so by default I will give you the western perception of India. Are you saying it is wrong? Is India viewed differently in other parts of the world?
    Are you a westerner or are you the perception of what is a westerner in your mind? There are plenty of so called westerners if I may generalize who have a lot of knowledge and understanding of other cultures. It is not really an excuse.

    Anyway you asked a question, you got responses so not sure what you mean by the west perceives India a certain way.

    Sure there are perceptions,stereotypes, biases are you saying it is right to have those?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    This thread is in poor taste so I won’t take the bait and keep my response brief.

    India’s greatest gift to the world is it’s rich and exotic culture. India has a unique identity unlike other subcontinent countries who have struggled to differentiate their culture from India’s and form their own respective identities.

    India’s corporate rise in recent decades has helped change the oriental stereotypes of snake charmers and flying carpets into genuine appreciation and admiration of a truly wonderful land.
    If we considered every topic as to whether they were in poor taste or good taste then frankly, we would have no discussions on this part of the forum. But thank you anyway for your contribution, at least the topic provided you an opportunity to put forward a positive light on India, so silver linings and all that....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Are you a westerner or are you the perception of what is a westerner in your mind? There are plenty of so called westerners if I may generalize who have a lot of knowledge and understanding of other cultures. It is not really an excuse.

    Anyway you asked a question, you got responses so not sure what you mean by the west perceives India a certain way.

    Sure there are perceptions,stereotypes, biases are you saying it is right to have those?
    You asked if my perception of India was based on western perception, and I confirmed it. I then asked if India was viewed differently in other parts of the world, I'm not really sure you answered that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    You asked if my perception of India was based on western perception, and I confirmed it. I then asked if India was viewed differently in other parts of the world, I'm not really sure you answered that.
    Again that is such a generalized statement. what is your definition of "world"? A redneck in Alabama might think of India differently than a Hipster in NYC. There is no real answer to that because I myself am generalizing here.

    Anyway it is a pointless debate and we are going in circles. Based on my understanding of your original OP ,You asked for India's legacy and I think you got some tangible answers in this thread.If I remember more than what has already been posted, I will definitely contribute.

    I think you should edit the OP if you want to take this in a different direction .As I said it is not clear what you want from the OP.It is either that or you didn't imagine the responses you ended up getting


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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Again that is such a generalized statement. what is your definition of "world"? A redneck in Alabama might think of India differently than a Hipster in NYC. There is no real answer to that because I myself am generalizing here.

    Anyway it is a pointless debate and we are going in circles. Based on my understanding of your original OP ,You asked for India's legacy and I think you got some tangible answers in this thread.If I remember more than what has already been posted, I will definitely contribute.

    I think you should edit the OP if you want to take this in a different direction .As I said it is not clear what you want from the OP.It is either that or you didn't imagine the responses you ended up getting
    You are the one who started talking about perception, and western perception in particular. If you just want to answer what is India's legacy to the world then just answer it, if you want to worry about perception then that is fine too. The thread isn't about which direction I want to take it whatever your perception might be. Feel free to take it wherever you want within the bounds of the topic.


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    People give generic answers like 0,religions like Jainism,Buddhism,Sikhism,Yoga,Kama sutra but if you analyze further

    0 was just not randomly invented in Aryabhatta's dream, He had to come up with it to produce his calculations as an astronomer. His measurement of the earth's circumference 2000 years ago without any modern equipment is freakishly close to the accepted number today.

    Religions- ancient religions in India were not just about converting someone to increase their numbers. They were philosophies and people had debates about it and the loser of that debate and his people would usually accept the new line of thought. I am sure people will point out wars and emperors using religion as a political tool but that is something unavoidable since time immemorial.

    Yoga and meditation- Yoga and meditation are not once a by product of random sage stretching and discovering the benefit by accident. These guys understood the physiology of the human body 1000's of years ago.

    Medicine and Surgery- The first rhinoplasty was performed in India. Westerners are discovering the medical benefits of turmeric, Aloe Vera or for the matter of fact the medical benefits of even cannabis but these were all journaled many years ago in India.

    Kamasutra- Again the west perception is as if Kama Sutra is about debauchery and perversion but the basic philosophy behind it is to promote a happy marriage between a couple and it was seen as a basic human need. In fact today we talk about equal rights for women etc but equal importance in all forms of happiness was given to women in this book. Can you imagine how advanced a civilization must be to think this way.


    All these were the by product of a nation being wealthy and self-sufficient. The invaders and westerners didn't come to India just to save us or teach us how to live. They came here for the excess of riches.

    In fact the industrial revolution was a by product of how to mass produce the finished product from the excess of raw material acquired from India and may be Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    The one genuinely Indian thing that springs to mind is how Ashoka the Great (the Mauryan King) spread Buddhism all over the Eastern world by sending emissaries everywhere. Today, much of the Far East and Sri Lanka have huge Buddhist populations and influence.

    Nice little mini-documentary about it -

    All these other things like architecture, good food, etc were mostly brought by foreigners.
    Can Buddhism still be called an Indian legacy though, since it is now associated more with far east countries than India itself? In India Buddhism declined quite a lot from my understanding, and was subsumed by Hinduism.

    I feel if India proclaimed Buddhism more openly then indeed they could take credit for the religion as a legacy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
    Sanskrit is the mother of all Indic languages not Indo-European.

    If you look at the language family tree, it splits up into a number of branches such as Germanic for German, English, etc. Another branch is the Latin branch, making up Spanish, French, Italian, etc.

    The Indo-Iranian branch splits up further into Indic, Iranian and Dardic. So in the Iranian branch, you get languages such as Pashto and Farsi.
    it is still debated. Both sides do make claims. One side is, as you have wrote above.

    The other side is, Sanskrit is derived from another language and then further branched into european languages.

    And then there is the hypothesis of two branches arising from that same old language one of which is sanskirt and the other is for English and others.

    In my opinion, borrowing from one another and getting influenced makes it difficult to ascertain which language was born from one another. It becomes very complex as years does pass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Can Buddhism still be called an Indian legacy though, since it is now associated more with far east countries than India itself? In India Buddhism declined quite a lot from my understanding, and was subsumed by Hinduism.

    I feel if India proclaimed Buddhism more openly then indeed they could take credit for the religion as a legacy.
    Again what do you mean by "associated" ? Isn't it a fact that it originated in India and spread from India to the rest of the world?

    Islam,Judaism and christianity is followed in so many countries and can be associated with counties even in the subcontinent but they originated from the middle east and if those countries claim that as a legacy,don't see why that is a deniable fact.

    The parsis live in India and I am assuming there are a handful of them living in Pakistan but it is a "persian" religion based on it's origin despite the fact that they were driven away from Iran many years ago.

    So not sure what your line of argument is?

    The place where Buddha got his enlightenment is still a significant tourist spot in India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    1. Yoga (no explanation needed)

    2. Language. (Sanskrit is considered the mother of all Indo-European languages)

    3. Architecture, Arts, Astrology etc.

    Not as empty as you'd think.
    This is not true at all, nobody that studies languages or has a basic understanding of linguistic history would ever claim Sanskrit is "the mother of all Indo-European languages" loool. Sanskrit is a descendant of Proto-Indo-Iranian which descends from Proto-Indo-European - Sanskrit is just another language in the family. The real "mother of all indo-european languages" is Proto-Indo-European. Sanskrit is only the parent language of Indo-Aryan languages which only exist in the subcontinent.


    "but but vut about da pundits?!?!?!?!?!"

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    This is obviously a troll thread, so I would encourage others not to feed it.

    OP says "The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest."

    When you say "I have come up with", did you do any research (try google), or are you pre-occupied with anti-India opinions? Because if you would try a simple google search with the same subject, I am sure you would "come up" with more than vegan diet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRIC_FANtastic View Post
    This is obviously a troll thread, so I would encourage others not to feed it.

    OP says "The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest."

    When you say "I have come up with", did you do any research (try google), or are you pre-occupied with anti-India opinions? Because if you would try a simple google search with the same subject, I am sure you would "come up" with more than vegan diet.
    No it's ok, it's a work in progress. From legacy we went to perceptions and then to legacy after 1947 to not being associated by others. baby steps. there is still hope we can contribute to the education of the OP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    For example if I ask you what is the legacy of British Pakistanis, I am sure there are plenty of great contributors in the fields of medicine,economics,art,sports etc but the world perception of the community is usually that they live on welfare, get radicalized etc. which is totally wrong
    Very interested in this - can you elaborate on these contributions here, or in a separate thread?


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    Very interested in this - can you elaborate on these contributions here, or in a separate thread?
    I think you need to re-read the context again because you clearly missed it. Instead of avoiding a new thread, let me explain.

    The OP was talking about western "perception" so I told him what the world "perceives" or the prevalent "stereotypes" that exist about British Pakistanis in the west.

    Again I am against ethnic/cultural stereotypes so I am going by my gut feeling that there might be quite a few great contributors from that ethnic group in many fields. At least I know a few sportsmen and artists(actors/musicians) the rest well I am neither British nor Pakistani, so you need to direct your request to the OP.

    Hey at least I know a few Brit Pak celebrity names, I think that is a better head start than thinking that India's only legacy is vegan food .
    Last edited by Local.Dada; 21st October 2019 at 01:51.

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    To be honest the only legacy India is known for is what it amassed during centuries of Muslim rule. Taj Mahal being one example. Also majority of Indian cuisine abroad is non-veg, which is again a legacy of Foreign muslim invaders.

    Other than this nobody outside subcontinent gives a toss about those temples, or native indian languages or (dare i say) Yoga. Indian culture and native Indian religion are still a mystery to most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    IVC covers a large region of Pakistan almost the entirety, in India % area-wise not as prominent but that itself is a huge area covering Rajasthan, Gujarat, Haryana, Punjab, parts of UP, MP, Indian landmass is huge in area. There are more IVC sites in India than Pakistan, you can check that for yourself. Dig deeper at the sites I mentioned in my previous post, all of them major centres. New sites are being discovered in India in recent times even as far away as Maharashtra, it is much larger than previously thought. Harappa, Mohenjodaro were first to be excavated that I agree. I don't intend to make this an Indo-Pak matter, just want to present facts.
    The word Hindustan is derived from Indus, which was the mother of Indian civilisation (even before Gunga and Jamuna). Compared to many other mainstream religions of the world, Hinduism is still perceived as a primitive form religion / ritualism (with no single code, burning of dead bodies, multiple gods, multiple cycles of life and lots of ritualism). Many outside India cant make sense of all this, as its very different to all other main stream religions of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_Rider View Post
    To be honest the only legacy India is known for is what it amassed during centuries of Muslim rule. Taj Mahal being one example. Also majority of Indian cuisine abroad is non-veg, which is again a legacy of Foreign muslim invaders.

    Other than this nobody outside subcontinent gives a toss about those temples, or native indian languages or (dare i say) Yoga. Indian culture and native Indian religion are still a mystery to most people.
    May be in some parts of Britain where you live. Yoga is a 16 billion $ industry in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I will be generous here and allow all versions of 'India' so that would include past and present including current states like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc. Basically the subcontinent.

    When we talk about my country: England, it would be a very easy topic, but I am struggling a little when it comes to India. The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest. It's a good starting pont. Anyone got any better suggestions?
    England’s legacy includes millions dead in famines in colonies like Ireland, India etc.

    India’s legacy includes Siddharth Gautama the Buddha. I suggest you read a bit of history before parading your ignorance to the world with posts like this one.

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    Maths imo.

    Aryabhatta inventing zero, Varahamihira's contributions to trigonometry and Panini's various contributions to mathematics (Panini was actually from present-day Pakistan).

    South Asia has had a much bigger impact on mathematics compared to the Greeks, and Euclides in particular. But sadly, most people don't know much about south asian mathematicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    1. Yoga (no explanation needed)

    2. Language. (Sanskrit is considered the mother of all Indo-European languages)

    3. Architecture, Arts, Astrology etc.

    Not as empty as you'd think.
    Not all, Sanskrit is only the 'mother' of Indo-Aryan languages.

    Sanskrit itself is derived from Proto-Indo-European.

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    Also what is this argument by some folk that Taj Mahal etc. cannot be counted as India's contributions ?

    It was built by an Indian emperor who was born in then undivided India. His father and Grand father both were born here. the monument was built in India. His wife for whom he built it was born in India. The materials, laborers,engineers, the science behind treating the marble, etc were all Indian. so how is Taj Mahal not an Indian contribution?

    Same goes for some of the food too. It was a combination of Indian spices and cooking methods may be an original cuisine from elsewhere to create a unique cuisine. so why can't Indians call it their own?

    I mean tomorrow if a Pakistani invents the next facebook, Pakistan cannot claim it because computers and internet were invented in America? That is dumb logic.

    Also the thread was India's contribution, not Hindu or Muslim contribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_Rider View Post
    To be honest the only legacy India is known for is what it amassed during centuries of Muslim rule. Taj Mahal being one example. Also majority of Indian cuisine abroad is non-veg, which is again a legacy of Foreign muslim invaders.
    That is your opinion. India isn't just a few cities in North India like Delhi, Agra, Chandigarh unlike what many Pakistanis may feel. Regarding cuisine, have you tried all varieties?

    Other than this nobody outside subcontinent gives a toss about those temples, or native indian languages or (dare i say) Yoga. Indian culture and native Indian religion are still a mystery to most people.
    Tamil Nadu is India's number 1 tourist state, most international arrivals, famous for indigenous culture and temples. Kerala is another tourist state, they are untouched by foreign invasions in medieval period.

    The word Hindustan is derived from Indus, which was the mother of Indian civilisation (even before Gunga and Jamuna). Compared to many other mainstream religions of the world, Hinduism is still perceived as a primitive form religion / ritualism (with no single code, burning of dead bodies, multiple gods, multiple cycles of life and lots of ritualism). Many outside India cant make sense of all this, as its very different to all other main stream religions of the world.
    That is your personal bias speaking. Hinduism is primitive because of many deities, reincarnation and karma theories, cremation etc. Really? I can argue about the similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism, is Buddhism also seen as primitive in the West? I can't make sense of many mathematical concepts, should I try to understand them or assign labels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_Rider View Post
    To be honest the only legacy India is known for is what it amassed during centuries of Muslim rule. Taj Mahal being one example. Also majority of Indian cuisine abroad is non-veg, which is again a legacy of Foreign muslim invaders.

    Other than this nobody outside subcontinent gives a toss about those temples, or native indian languages or (dare i say) Yoga. Indian culture and native Indian religion are still a mystery to most people.
    Did you say yoga is not cared outside in western world? That goes to show how much you are in a bubble and incapable of opening up to other views. Anyway do research.

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    Its nothing like main stream type of thing. A few ppl do it but thats about it.

    Time for you to get out of your bubble.

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    Yoga
    Satti
    IT employees
    Call centers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akki malhotra View Post
    What Pakistan? There was no place called Pakistan before 1947. Bharat has been here since thousand of years.
    If you think india is just 70 years old country then there is nothing to discuss.
    India did not exist as an idea before the British came and made it into one unit for administrative purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Also what is this argument by some folk that Taj Mahal etc. cannot be counted as India's contributions ?

    It was built by an Indian emperor who was born in then undivided India. His father and Grand father both were born here. the monument was built in India. His wife for whom he built it was born in India. The materials, laborers,engineers, the science behind treating the marble, etc were all Indian. so how is Taj Mahal not an Indian contribution?

    Same goes for some of the food too. It was a combination of Indian spices and cooking methods may be an original cuisine from elsewhere to create a unique cuisine. so why can't Indians call it their own?

    I mean tomorrow if a Pakistani invents the next facebook, Pakistan cannot claim it because computers and internet were invented in America? That is dumb logic.

    Also the thread was India's contribution, not Hindu or Muslim contribution.
    So Hindu indians want to bad out Mughals at every opportunity but claim their achievements and legacy as Their own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    That is your opinion. India isn't just a few cities in North India like Delhi, Agra, Chandigarh unlike what many Pakistanis may feel. Regarding cuisine, have you tried all varieties?



    Tamil Nadu is India's number 1 tourist state, most international arrivals, famous for indigenous culture and temples. Kerala is another tourist state, they are untouched by foreign invasions in medieval period.



    That is your personal bias speaking. Hinduism is primitive because of many deities, reincarnation and karma theories, cremation etc. Really? I can argue about the similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism, is Buddhism also seen as primitive in the West? I can't make sense of many mathematical concepts, should I try to understand them or assign labels?
    No body outside India knows much about Tamil Nado or care abt its existence. Its not like thats its a cradle of civilisation and Yes Hinduism comes across as a primitive religion not just because of things I previously mentioned but also because not many ppl can understand why some ppl “worship” Cow, Snake, monkeys and Elephants. Not sure if budhism has these aspects too but i ve never heard abt these in context of Budhism.

    Now all of this is an unbiased view (in honesty) and I am a Pakistani of Indian (UP) origin myself and have been to India. Still I cant make much sense of it. Infact I can see the reasons why some of my ancestors decided to leave Hinduism for another religion.

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    Tamil Nadu may be known as one of the cheap and cheerful Beach location with nice weather and good Beer availability. That’s it.

    Its not that tourists would be flocking there for cultural heritage and the mind blowing architecture of those temples. I ve lived in a few western countries and have never seen Tamil Nadu featuring in many holiday brochures. It must be nice, i can imagine but same nice as Sti Lanka or Thailand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I will be generous here and allow all versions of 'India' so that would include past and present including current states like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc. Basically the subcontinent.

    When we talk about my country: England, it would be a very easy topic, but I am struggling a little when it comes to India. The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest. It's a good starting pont. Anyone got any better suggestions?
    I find it shocking you are struggling. Let me remind you of the greatest legacy.



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    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    India did not exist as an idea before the British came and made it into one unit for administrative purposes.
    That 's only Pakistan opinion. Whole world has different thing to say. Bharat has been here since centuries. We have no identity crisis. We are oldest civilization. Got conquered by brutal invaders, attracted by indian wealth, over the time and lost our some land and some people got converted forcefully

    Birth place of dharmik religions such as hinduism, budhism, sikhism, jainism etc many religions. It would take hours to write down legacy of bharat the oldest civilization of earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    England’s legacy includes millions dead in famines in colonies like Ireland, India etc.

    India’s legacy includes Siddharth Gautama the Buddha. I suggest you read a bit of history before parading your ignorance to the world with posts like this one.
    Personally speaking, this thread is in bad taste as India has a great legacy. But your comment about England is just as bad.

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    Lol, get off your high Horse. Invaders? What invaders? Throughout the history people migrate to places new for opportunities. Guess why Ancestral North Indians (or Aryans) came from?

    Guess why North Indian languages are part of a much greater Indo-European branch?

    Mentality like yours is the reason why indians have always been on the fringes on great world civilisations. No real impact on world history, no major contribution to any thing.... Uppar se Baatein dekho!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akki malhotra View Post
    That 's only Pakistan opinion. Whole world has different thing to say. Bharat has been here since centuries. We have no identity crisis. We are oldest civilization. Got conquered by brutal invaders, attracted by indian wealth, over the time and lost our some land and some people got converted forcefully

    Birth place of dharmik religions such as hinduism, budhism, sikhism, jainism etc many religions. It would take hours to write down legacy of bharat the oldest civilization of earth.
    The world's oldest civilisations are Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus Valley Civilisation, none of these are centred in India.

    A unified India is a new idea, before that, India has only been unwillingly unified, similar to how Napoleon or Hitler took much of Europe.

    If you're talking about shared customs and traditions, that's a continental thing. Many of the nations of Europe have/had shared customs and traditions, as did the pre colonial American nations, Middle East, central Asia, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akki malhotra View Post
    That 's only Pakistan opinion. Whole world has different thing to say. Bharat has been here since centuries. We have no identity crisis. We are oldest civilization. Got conquered by brutal invaders, attracted by indian wealth, over the time and lost our some land and some people got converted forcefully

    Birth place of dharmik religions such as hinduism, budhism, sikhism, jainism etc many religions. It would take hours to write down legacy of bharat the oldest civilization of earth.
    That's not Pakistani opinion.

    That is fact verifiable by history.

    Before the British forcibly lumped all of what is considered modern Pakistan, India and Bangladesh into one territory called 'British India' for administrative purposes, you have to go back several millenia to have any semblance of a territory encompassing the same regions.


    #MPGA

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    If you believe in the Aryan migration theory those IVC people were Dravidians. You can do some research on the Harappan-Dravidian links if you are interested. How else can you explain the Brahui language in Balochistan which is of Dravidian origin? Similarity with Tamil in a land 2000 km away from South India, strange.



    Inaccurate. It wasn't entirely within Pakistan, not even close. Major sites in India and Afghanistan to a lesser extent. If they spoke a Dravidian language surely there must be some cultural contact with modern day India and Pakistan. Image of Pashupati found on the seals is proto-Shiva, a central God in Hinduism. We can't say they have nothing to do with us, history doesn't work that way. We are all linked in some way or the other.
    I've done research on Harrapan-Dravidian links, and there is no real evidence to suggest that Indus Valley People were Dravidian. No one knows who the Indus Valley People were, they script hasn't even been deciphered. It's more likely that, with the many waves of Aryan migration, the civilisation collapsed, and the people got 'absorbed' into the migrating population.

    Look at a map of the IVC, its totally centred on Pakistan with some of its outreaches in India and Afghanistan. Some of the sites you mentioned aren't even IVC sites, they are pre-IVC sites that have remnants of tribal people, not of any civilisation. The major cities of the IVC that we know of (Mohenjo-daro, Harrappa, Mehergargh) are all in Pakistan.

    Indian civilization that we know of today has very little to do with the Indus Valley Civilisation.
    Last edited by hussain.r97; 21st October 2019 at 04:48.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    The world's oldest civilisations are Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus Valley Civilisation, none of these are centred in India.

    A unified India is a new idea, before that, India has only been unwillingly unified, similar to how Napoleon or Hitler took much of Europe.

    If you're talking about shared customs and traditions, that's a continental thing. Many of the nations of Europe have/had shared customs and traditions, as did the pre colonial American nations, Middle East, central Asia, etc.
    Pakistan only came into place in 1947. Not sure palistanis claims themselves descendents of indus valley civilization.
    You mean to say Pakistan is the oldest civilization in the world?

    That's what you meant that Pakistan is the oldest civilization in the world . Lolz.
    Indus people used to worship what today hindus worship. . Not sure Pakistan worship the same. Have some logics before you say something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_Rider View Post
    Tamil Nadu may be known as one of the cheap and cheerful Beach location with nice weather and good Beer availability. That’s it.
    Good beer availability in TN? Since when? Do you even know what TASMAC is?

    And nice weather in TN!?

    If ever there was a post emblematic of the average British Pakistani world view / education levels, this was it.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    I've done research on Harrapan-Dravidian links, and there is no real evidence to suggest that Indus Valley People were Dravidian. No one knows who the Indus Valley People were, they script hasn't even been deciphered. It's more likely that, with the many waves of Aryan migration, the civilisation collapsed, and the people got 'absorbed' into the migrating population.

    Look at a map of the IVC, its totally centred on Pakistan with some of its outreaches in India and Afghanistan. Some of the sites you mentioned aren't even IVC sites, they are pre-IVC sites that have remnants of tribal people, not of any civilisation. The major cities of the IVC that we know of (Mohenjo-daro, Harrappa, Mehergargh) are all in Pakistan.

    Indian civilization that we know of today has very little to do with the Indus Valley Civilisation.
    Do you know which is the largest IVC site?

    Any idea where the worlds oldest Port is located?

    Do not mistake most well preserved site to be the center of a civilization.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
    Personally speaking, this thread is in bad taste as India has a great legacy. But your comment about England is just as bad.
    Facts are facts. If the OP boasts about "his" country's legacy, it of course needs to be pointed out that it is not all good.

    England has a great legacy as the oldest surviving democracy and the country which worked to abolish slavery worldwide. But also part of its legacy are the millions dead in famines in its colonies. Or is remembering them is "bad", and we should just delete them from history?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_Rider View Post
    To be honest the only legacy India is known for is what it amassed during centuries of Muslim rule. Taj Mahal being one example. Also majority of Indian cuisine abroad is non-veg, which is again a legacy of Foreign muslim invaders.

    Other than this nobody outside subcontinent gives a toss about those temples, or native indian languages or (dare i say) Yoga. Indian culture and native Indian religion are still a mystery to most people.
    A building, however beautiful, does not a legacy make. Nor to a dozen buildings, however beautiful.

    Legacy is that which is still important, something that has an impact on our lives. Culture and philosophy have an impact, not tourist attractions.

    Of course, I do not expect you to know about Indian culture or philosophies. For someone uneducated Hindu religion is about worship of idols rather than the Gita or the Vedas.

    While Sanskrit came from the Proto-Indo-European language, the descendants of the PIE speakers all have claim to that legacy. And various communities in India have the highest concentrations of the R1a haplogroup (read about it).

    In the modern world, a legacy for India would be the generic pharma companies which produce high quality affordable medicines which save the lives of millions in the poorer countries.

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    No I'm not saying Pakistan is the oldest civilization in the world. What I'm saying is that it's totally ridiculous for India to claim the IVC as 'Indian' considering.

    A.) India is only as old as Pakistan.
    B.) IVC is largely centred on Pakistan
    B.) The people of the Indus Valley were racially, culturally, and religiously distinct to the current people of both India and Pakistan. They were not Hindu, they spoke a language lost to us they had their own script, and they had their own customs.

    They are an ancient lost civilization that have no real links to India.

    India has its many achievements legacies, and old empires and civilisations to be proud of, but the IVC isn't one of them.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    No I'm not saying Pakistan is the oldest civilization in the world. What I'm saying is that it's totally ridiculous for India to claim the IVC as 'Indian' considering.

    A.) India is only as old as Pakistan.
    B.) IVC is largely centred on Pakistan
    B.) The people of the Indus Valley were racially, culturally, and religiously distinct to the current people of both India and Pakistan. They were not Hindu, they spoke a language lost to us they had their own script, and they had their own customs.

    They are an ancient lost civilization that have no real links to India.

    India has its many achievements legacies, and old empires and civilisations to be proud of, but the IVC isn't one of them.

    Your point B makes no sense, when the largest IVC site lies in India.

    The oldest port lies in India.

    Just because modern egyptians are muslims and have no relation culturewise or language wise or religion wise with ancient egyptians, are the pyramids not their legacy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    A building, however beautiful, does not a legacy make. Nor to a dozen buildings, however beautiful.

    Legacy is that which is still important, something that has an impact on our lives. Culture and philosophy have an impact, not tourist attractions.

    Of course, I do not expect you to know about Indian culture or philosophies. For someone uneducated Hindu religion is about worship of idols rather than the Gita or the Vedas.

    While Sanskrit came from the Proto-Indo-European language, the descendants of the PIE speakers all have claim to that legacy. And various communities in India have the highest concentrations of the R1a haplogroup (read about it).

    In the modern world, a legacy for India would be the generic pharma companies which produce high quality affordable medicines which save the lives of millions in the poorer countries.
    That’s all you could come up with?


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