Sohail Speaks Yasir's Blog Fazeer's Focus

User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 80 of 200
  1. #1
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Allied soldiers 'raped hundreds of thousands of German women' after WW2

    Hundreds of thousands of German women were raped by British, American and French soldiers after the end of the Second World War, a German historian has claimed.

    In a new book, Professor Miriam Gerhardt, a well-regarded German academic, challenges the established view that Soviet troops were responsible for the vast majority of rape cases in occupied Germany.

    “The assumption that Western Allied soldiers would not do such a thing turned out not to be true,” she said, to the broadcaster Deutsche Welle. “In the method and violence of rap there was no different between American GIs and the Red Army, as far as I can see.”

    Prof Gerhardt drew on detailed accounts kept by Bavarian Catholic priests on individual cases for her book - When the Soldiers Came.

    “The saddest event during the advance were three rapes, one on a married woman, one on a single woman and one on a spotless girl of 16-and-a-half. They were committed by heavily drunk Americans,” wrote one of the priests, Fr Andreas Weingand, in July 1945.

    She said she had also studied the records of “war children”, the illegitimate children born to German mothers and Allied fathers.

    German records include specific details of those conceived in rape cases. Prof Gebhardt assumed that there had been 100 rapes for each birth, coming up with a figure of 190,000 rapes by American soldiers alone.

    But Antony Beevor, the author of The Second World War, disputed her numbers.

    “It’s almost impossible to come up with figures, but I think to say there were hundreds of thousands is a great exaggeration,” he said.

    The most notorious instances of rape by Western Allied forces were by French troops during the sack of Stuttgart.

    Of the Allies, British troops appear to have been responsible for the least rapes.

    “Not because of any morality or respect for woman, but because the NCOs wouldn’t allow the soldiers to go off on their own,” Prof Beevor said.

    He added that Soviet archives had confirmed that around two million German women had been raped by Soviet soldiers, while Prof Gerdhardt put the figure at 500,000.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...after-WW2.html

    Why is this history whitewashed/hidden? I only recently learned of these 'allegations' a couple of years ago.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  2. #2
    Debut
    Feb 2006
    Runs
    33,381
    Mentioned
    388 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Lol, in every American War, war crimes and rapes against women have been notorious. No surprise here.

  3. #3
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Lol, in every American War, war crimes and rapes against women have been notorious. No surprise here.
    Sure, some more than others.

    My issue is why is this history hidden from the public? Why has there been no historic investigation into this?
    @Robert thoughts?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  4. #4
    Debut
    Oct 2015
    Venue
    Andromeda
    Runs
    3,688
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Not surprising.

    Decades after the WWII, Americans were even more brutal in Vietnam.

    Check out this documentary: The Vietnam War 2017 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1877514/

  5. #5
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Pakistan
    Runs
    41,664
    Mentioned
    1946 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    The world media and narrative presents US as some enlightened force for good in the world when in fact they are the most corrupt, evil nation on earth and the biggest bully. They have invaded countless countries and resulted in millions of dead. Also only nation on earth to drop nukes.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  6. #6
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Not surprising.

    Decades after the WWII, Americans were even more brutal in Vietnam.

    Check out this documentary: The Vietnam War 2017 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1877514/
    The Yank troops are well known, they are no better than the Nazi's.

    The Brits however have a cleaner image but only because of history being hidden to the masses.

    The battle of Normandy which is seen has herioc resulted in the rapes, looting and even opening up coffins of dead people by British soldiers.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  7. #7
    Debut
    Feb 2006
    Runs
    33,381
    Mentioned
    388 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Sure, some more than others.

    My issue is why is this history hidden from the public? Why has there been no historic investigation into this?
    @Robert thoughts?
    Well if its out in the public then its out there.

  8. #8
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    1,298
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There was a famous German movie A Woman In Berlin on this topic
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1035730/?ref_=ttls_li_tt

  9. #9
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Well if its out in the public then its out there.
    It isn't out there unless you come across articles or docus and those are very limited in number because Im guessing any criticsm will result in one being called a Nazi sympathiser.

    A good example is every other week an Indian will bring up 1971 , Pak force raped etc. Yet Indian and also the so called freedom fighters did the same ,raping ,looting etc.

    The war crimes of the allies are buried, you will not learn of these in school or anywhere else. They are seen as total heros, some were but others were no better than the Mongols.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  10. #10
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    1,298
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    It isn't out there unless you come across articles or docus and those are very limited in number because Im guessing any criticsm will result in one being called a Nazi sympathiser.

    A good example is every other week an Indian will bring up 1971 , Pak force raped etc. Yet Indian and also the so called freedom fighters did the same ,raping ,looting etc.

    The war crimes of the allies are buried, you will not learn of these in school or anywhere else. They are seen as total heros, some were but others were no better than the Mongols.
    We all know the history is written by victors. As in war of 1971 although Pakistan lost half of its country but still survives with remaining half. That is the reason in Pakistan generally no mention of what Pakistani army did and same way in Bangladeshi and Indian history no mention of what Mukti Bahni did.

  11. #11
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    The Yank troops are well known, they are no better than the Nazi's.

    The Brits however have a cleaner image but only because of history being hidden to the masses.

    The battle of Normandy which is seen has herioc resulted in the rapes, looting and even opening up coffins of dead people by British soldiers.
    By what metric is the US Army no better than the Waffen SS? Be specific not hyperbolic.

    I would be unsurprised if some US or British soldiers committed rape because the pressure of combat is intolerable and turns some men into beasts. But it would be a shooting offence if they were caught by the MPs.

    I don’t believe it happened on the scale of the Red Army who raped almost every Berliner woman between age 12 and 70.

  12. #12
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    By what metric is the US Army no better than the Waffen SS? Be specific not hyperbolic.
    Sure, glad you asked. How much time have you got?

    Here is one from the article.

    "“The saddest event during the advance were three rapes, one on a married woman, one on a single woman and one on a spotless girl of 16-and-a-half. They were committed by heavily drunk Americans,” wrote one of the priests, Fr Andreas Weingand, in July 1945. "



    I would be unsurprised if some US or British soldiers committed rape because the pressure of combat is intolerable and turns some men into beasts. But it would be a shooting offence if they were caught by the MPs.

    I don’t believe it happened on the scale of the Red Army who raped almost every Berliner woman between age 12 and 70.
    Not 500,000? So how many in your estimate based on hisotrical archives/facts?

    Please , there is no pressure which inspires you to rape women and young girls. I would re-tract such a comment in your haste to defend the Allies. Just condemn it outright.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  13. #13
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    6,140
    Mentioned
    442 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I don’t believe it happened on the scale of the Red Army who raped almost every Berliner woman between age 12 and 70.
    This allegation may or may not be true, one should not be naive.

    After the war the US quickly pivoted to having its old ally the Soviet Union as the new enemy. An important part of psyops of the US directed to the Western European audience was painting the Soviets as barbarians. So one will never know the truth about the allegations of rape made against the Soviets from women in the US/British/French zones.

    WWII/The Great Patriotic War was absolutely horrible, but also fought with the greatest determination, more than any other nations in history. It is best not to keep regurgitating the various allegations which may or may not be true.

  14. #14
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Sure, glad you asked. How much time have you got?

    Here is one from the article.

    "“The saddest event during the advance were three rapes, one on a married woman, one on a single woman and one on a spotless girl of 16-and-a-half. They were committed by heavily drunk Americans,” wrote one of the priests, Fr Andreas Weingand, in July 1945. "
    Ok that is three women raped by US soldiers.

    I am not seeing the millions, and I mean millions of Eastern European and Russian civilians shot dead or burned or sent to the extermination camps by the SS in the wake of the Panzerarmee advance.


    Not 500,000? So how many in your estimate based on hisotrical archives/facts?
    That reads like historical revisionism. I thought the figure was >1M Berliners raped by the Red Army in vengeance for what I mentioned above, often in front of the husbands before shooting them all dead.


    Please , there is no pressure which inspires you to rape women and young girls. I would re-tract such a comment in your haste to defend the Allies. Just condemn it outright.
    I defended nobody so there is nothing to retract. Perhaps you missed my shooting offence comment. I dispute the numbers in the OP.

  15. #15
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ok that is three women raped by US soldiers.

    I am not seeing the millions, and I mean millions of Eastern European and Russian civilians shot dead or burned or sent to the extermination camps by the SS in the wake of the Panzerarmee advance.
    SS are long gone, the US soldiers have been involved in war crimes since and on-going. Makes the SS look like timid criminals. But if in defence of the yanks you want to only limit this to WW2, then explain the Biscari massacre?



    That reads like historical revisionism. I thought the figure was >1M Berliners raped by the Red Army in vengeance for what I mentioned above, often in front of the husbands before shooting them all dead.



    I defended nobody so there is nothing to retract. Perhaps you missed my shooting offence comment. I dispute the numbers in the OP.
    Sure, i know you are not defending them as per say but thre is no need to try and understand a rapist, they are just evil.

    What types of numbers do you feel are more accurate?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  16. #16
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    SS are long gone, the US soldiers have been involved in war crimes since and on-going. Makes the SS look like timid criminals. But if in defence of the yanks you want to only limit this to WW2, then explain the Biscari massacre?

    Sure, i know you are not defending them as per say but thre is no need to try and understand a rapist, they are just evil.

    What types of numbers do you feel are more accurate?
    Said massacre was perpetrated by two soldiers who ran amok and were subsequently charged with murder. There was an attempt at restorative justice. It would be egregious to compare this to a deliberate state-sanctioned extermination policy which was the most vicious in human history.

    I don’t know what the true figures are, but I think that there was no compulsion on Western soldiers from democracies to take revenge as did the Red Army of a totalitarian USSR as they advanced and took territory back and saw that their home towns were obliterated.

  17. #17
    Debut
    May 2019
    Runs
    3,699
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just wanted my mate @miandadrules to see this thread!

  18. #18
    Debut
    May 2019
    Runs
    3,699
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am suprised that people are suprised at these claims.

    History is written by the victors.

  19. #19
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    28,368
    Mentioned
    260 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Can't comment on what happened in Germany, but can well imagine the Americans went to town in Vietnam. You can still see echoes of the mentality, often referred to as Yellow Fever these days.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  20. #20
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Said massacre was perpetrated by two soldiers who ran amok and were subsequently charged with murder. There was an attempt at restorative justice. It would be egregious to compare this to a deliberate state-sanctioned extermination policy which was the most vicious in human history.
    I was highligthing many killed in just one incident. There are many many more.



    I don’t know what the true figures are, but I think that there was no compulsion on Western soldiers from democracies to take revenge as did the Red Army of a totalitarian USSR as they advanced and took territory back and saw that their home towns were obliterated.
    Of course you dont because its never taught or investigated in the western world. A world where they quickly state 6 million Jews killed but cant work out how many they have killed themselves, rather strange isn't it.

    Western, Eastern or Martians can all be evil. It's absurd brainwashing to think the 'west' are the good guys, something you need to shed Robert.

    You dont have a scooby doo about the numbers, which pretty much confirms my point. history has been distored, hidden and faked in regards to the big wars. Even you cant deny this.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  21. #21
    Debut
    Mar 2011
    Venue
    Seattle, WA
    Runs
    594
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Can't comment on what happened in Germany, but can well imagine the Americans went to town in Vietnam. You can still see echoes of the mentality, often referred to as Yellow Fever these days.
    Look up My Lai massacre.

    Metric used for success under McNamara/Westmoreland was number of enemy fighters killed. So whole villages were butchered and written down as enemy killed to bump up their metrics....

  22. #22
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    5,546
    Mentioned
    149 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    By what metric is the US Army no better than the Waffen SS? Be specific not hyperbolic.

    I would be unsurprised if some US or British soldiers committed rape because the pressure of combat is intolerable and turns some men into beasts. But it would be a shooting offence if they were caught by the MPs.

    I don’t believe it happened on the scale of the Red Army who raped almost every Berliner woman between age 12 and 70.
    Poor guys. It was the wars fault, not theirs.

  23. #23
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    6,165
    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What defines a "Genocide" is politics and people's own biases or ignorance. For example people always speak about the Bengali genocide of 1971 but will forget about the "Counter-genocide" of Urdu-speakers in East Pakistan, or people Indian nationalists will talk about the genocide of Pandits yet ignore the genocide of Kashmiri Muslims. Just the other day Sikh nationalists on social media were condemning the Durrani empire for committing genocide against Sikhs and Indians yet they deny that the Sikh empire committed similar crimes in Kashmir and Punjab against Muslims. Everybody's got their biases.

  24. #24
    Debut
    Jan 2006
    Venue
    Yorkshire
    Runs
    38,187
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I thought this was already well known.

    War brings out of the worst in people.

  25. #25
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I was highligthing many killed in just one incident. There are many many more.

    Of course you dont because its never taught or investigated in the western world. A world where they quickly state 6 million Jews killed but cant work out how many they have killed themselves, rather strange isn't it.

    Western, Eastern or Martians can all be evil. It's absurd brainwashing to think the 'west' are the good guys, something you need to shed Robert.

    You dont have a scooby doo about the numbers, which pretty much confirms my point. history has been distored, hidden and faked in regards to the big wars. Even you cant deny this.
    You are comparing incidents by individuals who ran amok and for the most part were caught and punished by a system which considered their actions criminal, with deliberate government mass extermination policies where soldiers were expected to run amok.

  26. #26
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cric_man View Post
    Look up My Lai massacre.

    Metric used for success under McNamara/Westmoreland was number of enemy fighters killed. So whole villages were butchered and written down as enemy killed to bump up their metrics....
    The officer in charge of that massacre was tried and convicted.

    It’s not the same as the Khmer Rouge, for instance, where 1.5 million people were deliberately murdered by the state.

  27. #27
    Debut
    Mar 2011
    Venue
    Seattle, WA
    Runs
    594
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The officer in charge of that massacre was tried and convicted.

    It’s not the same as the Khmer Rouge, for instance, where 1.5 million people were deliberately murdered by the state.
    Only after Seymore Hersh (same reporter who exposed Abu Ghuraib ) reported on it and there was photographic evidence. Otherwise it would have been brushed under the proverbial rug

  28. #28
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    You are comparing incidents by individuals who ran amok and for the most part were caught and punished by a system which considered their actions criminal, with deliberate government mass extermination policies where soldiers were expected to run amok.
    The Allies killed millions of German POW's.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  29. #29
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Runs
    666
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    The Allies killed millions of German POW's.
    Don't forget the deliberate air raids on civilians.

  30. #30
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Pakistan
    Runs
    41,664
    Mentioned
    1946 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    Don't forget the deliberate air raids on civilians.
    Not to forget the two nukes dropped on civilian pops in Japan. History sides with the victor but the Allies weren't any less brutal than the Germans infact by some measures they were worse.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  31. #31
    Debut
    Oct 2008
    Runs
    253
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The officer in charge of that massacre was tried and convicted.

    It’s not the same as the Khmer Rouge, for instance, where 1.5 million people were deliberately murdered by the state.
    Apparently he only served 3 years house arrest. Guess non western lives are cheap eh? Same crap was done in Afghanistan and Iraq and they got away with it. There are simply no good armies anymore except in the figment of their people's imagination.

  32. #32
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz39 View Post
    Apparently he only served 3 years house arrest. Guess non western lives are cheap eh? Same crap was done in Afghanistan and Iraq and they got away with it. There are simply no good armies anymore except in the figment of their people's imagination.
    Yes, IMO he should have served life for that war crime. Point being that the US Army tried and sentenced him, whereas @KingKhanWC would have us believe that the US is worse than a state which murdered ten of millions of Europeans and Slavs as a matter of policy.

    Several US soldiers were tried for war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, and some were reduced in rank, given DDs and imprisoned, though you could argue that the sentences were too light and I would agree. The commandant of Abu Graib was reduced in rank for not controlling his staff. The Sergeant who committed the Kandahar massacre is serving life without parole.

    Interesting that the ICC’s Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda is not pursuing war crime charges in Afghanistan: https://www.afghanistan-analysts.org...t-for-victims/

  33. #33
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    The Allies killed millions of German POW's.
    Simply untrue.

  34. #34
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    Don't forget the deliberate air raids on civilians.
    Every engaged nation committed these. The British and Americans were just better at it because they had four-motor bombers. The choice was either do nothing and let the Nazis and Imperial Japanese continue to slaughter millions, or kill hundreds of thousands to end their capacity to carry on their deliberate extermination policies.

  35. #35
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Not to forget the two nukes dropped on civilian pops in Japan. History sides with the victor but the Allies weren't any less brutal than the Germans infact by some measures they were worse.
    How was this any worse than a conventional thousand-bomber raid? Whoever developed it first was bound to use it. You think the Nazis wouldn’t have nuked London with a ballistic missile given another year of research?

  36. #36
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Runs
    666
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Every engaged nation committed these. The British and Americans were just better at it because they had four-motor bombers. The choice was either do nothing and let the Nazis and Imperial Japanese continue to slaughter millions, or kill hundreds of thousands to end their capacity to carry on their deliberate extermination policies.
    Yeah, let's ignore the raid on Dresden which was for no other purpose other than to scare the Germans in to surrender.

  37. #37
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post

    I am not seeing the millions, and I mean millions of Eastern European and Russian civilians shot dead or burned or sent to the extermination camps by the SS in the wake of the Panzerarmee advance.
    Brother, show me the evidence which proves beyond all doubt that millions of Jews were gassed, that millions of Jews who were burnt to the bone, the millions who were burned alive. I want to see the evidence of at least 1 MILLION bodies, not select shots from Auschwitz et al - I want to see evidence of the mass graves of millions of Jews. Do you have it? Or, do you accept the word of historians?

  38. #38
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    Yeah, let's ignore the raid on Dresden which was for no other purpose other than to scare the Germans in to surrender.
    The objective was to destroy the enemy’s capacity to make war by destroying every city. I think Dresden was just the last target on the list of cities. The bomber war in Europe ended after that, because there was nothing left to destroy.

  39. #39
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Brother, show me the evidence which proves beyond all doubt that millions of Jews were gassed, that millions of Jews who were burnt to the bone, the millions who were burned alive. I want to see the evidence of at least 1 MILLION bodies, not select shots from Auschwitz et al - I want to see evidence of the mass graves of millions of Jews. Do you have it? Or, do you accept the word of historians?
    I am not just talking of Jews, Gypsies, Blacks and the disabled, but the Poles and Slavs wiped out in the wake of the Nazi advance. The oft-quoted six million is more like thirteen million when you take these into account.

    Yes, I believe the historians. Open some books and have a read. Study the Nuremberg trials - some three thousand tonnes of paper records.
    Last edited by Robert; 15th November 2019 at 01:22.

  40. #40
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    The Nazi criminals were condemned by their own mouths. For example, Von Stroop’s own records state that he captured 55,000 Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, shot 7000 of them and sent 7000 more to Treblinka.

    Rudolph Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz testified that he oversaw the murder of over one million Jews at his camp alone.

    Or ask Holocaust survivors (there are a very few left) where their family, all their friends and whole neighbourhoods went.


  41. #41
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Runs
    666
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The objective was to destroy the enemy’s capacity to make war by destroying every city. I think Dresden was just the last target on the list of cities. The bomber war in Europe ended after that, because there was nothing left to destroy.
    And those cities had hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not all cities had military production facilities. So, in no other terms, it was deliberate murder of civilians.

  42. #42
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Runs
    666
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The Nazi criminals were condemned by their own mouths. For example, Von Stroop’s own records state that he captured 55,000 Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, shot 7000 of them and sent 7000 more to Treblinka.

    Rudolph Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz testified that he oversaw the murder of over one million Jews at his camp alone.

    Or ask Holocaust survivors (there are a very few left) where their family, all their friends and whole neighbourhoods went.
    How would Hess have overseen one million deaths, and that too in one camp, in just 10-11 months?

    Germany was primary focussed on defeating France/Britain which didn't happen till French surrender in June 1940. Hess landed in Scotland in May 1941.

    Further, Auschwitz didn't even have the capacity for the 1 million mentioned. It was only expanded prior to commencement of Operation Barbarossa in anticipation of the Soviet POWs.

    So where did this 1 million figure come from?

    Gassing supposedly started in September 1941 and that too on Soviets (who were bigger victims than Jews yet people can only ever recall 6 million Jews).

    There is no doubt war crimes were commited, however you seem to have numbers, victims and timelines completely muddled up.

  43. #43
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    And those cities had hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not all cities had military production facilities. So, in no other terms, it was deliberate murder of civilians.
    That was how wars were fought, this was country against country no holds barred.

    Wars are fought for different reasons, Germany was not after oil supplies or promoting some ideology but were out to exterminate and replace. Yes it was deliberate killing of civilians, a desperate fight for survival. It is also where we learnt lessons that shape our world now.

  44. #44
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    28,368
    Mentioned
    260 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The objective was to destroy the enemy’s capacity to make war by destroying every city. I think Dresden was just the last target on the list of cities. The bomber war in Europe ended after that, because there was nothing left to destroy.
    Well that would work. You can understand the appeal of nuclear weapons in WW11 from that context. Not sure how that would stand up in today's more environmentally conscuous world, but it's amazing that some still try to defend nuking your opponent because it would save lives in the long run.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  45. #45
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Well that would work. You can understand the appeal of nuclear weapons in WW11 from that context. Not sure how that would stand up in today's more environmentally conscuous world, but it's amazing that some still try to defend nuking your opponent because it would save lives in the long run.
    Its not a case of defending or rebuking, it is what happened at the time under those circumstances. Nothing is right in any war.

  46. #46
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I am not just talking of Jews, Gypsies, Blacks and the disabled, but the Poles and Slavs wiped out in the wake of the Nazi advance. The oft-quoted six million is more like thirteen million when you take these into account.

    Yes, I believe the historians. Open some books and have a read. Study the Nuremberg trials - some three thousand tonnes of paper records.
    That's not what I asked you. Essentially you have no empirical evidence demonstrating that even 1 Million Jews perished in Nazi Germany. But you accept this figure between 6 to 13 Million based on some books, and some 3000 tonnes of paper record which you have not read. By the way, does this record include the figure first quoted by the Red Cross in the 300K region?

    The point is, you demand empirical evidence supporting the numbers claimed in the OP, but are swift to believe books and historians when it suits the post WW2 narrative.

    Anyway, forgot the above, tell me why aren't Churchill's policies, which contributed to 1943 Bengal famine, taught in UK schools?

  47. #47
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post

    Anyway, forgot the above, tell me why aren't Churchill's policies, which contributed to 1943 Bengal famine, taught in UK schools?
    So our kids dont spend their life arguing on the internet about issues that happened before their parents were born.

  48. #48
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    So our kids dont spend their life arguing on the internet about issues that happened before their parents were born.
    But the first thing you remember about WW2, is 6 Million.

    Lets forget about the Holocaust, it was an issue that occurred long before we were born.

  49. #49
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Well that would work. You can understand the appeal of nuclear weapons in WW11 from that context. Not sure how that would stand up in today's more environmentally conscuous world, but it's amazing that some still try to defend nuking your opponent because it would save lives in the long run.
    The threat of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - does indeed save lives though, Pakistan/India is he perfect example.

  50. #50
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    But the first thing you remember about WW2, is 6 Million.

    Lets forget about the Holocaust, it was an issue that occurred long before we were born.
    Incorrect, the first thing I remember about WW2 is the senseless destruction and loss of lives.

    I know about the holocaust but I'm not going to argue about the semantics, death numbers range from 6 million to 1.1 million.

  51. #51
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Incorrect, the first thing I remember about WW2 is the senseless destruction and loss of lives.

    I know about the holocaust but I'm not going to argue about the semantics, death numbers range from 6 million to 1.1 million.
    Naaah, you couldn't tell me how many Brits, Germans, or French soldiers died without looking it up, but you could tell me how many Jews died, even though you are not going to argue semantics.

    But hey, as you suggest, we should forget about events which occurred long before we were born.

  52. #52
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Naaah, you couldn't tell me how many Brits, Germans, or French soldiers died without looking it up, but you could tell me how many Jews died, even though you are not going to argue semantics.

    But hey, as you suggest, we should forget about events which occurred long before we were born.
    You are getting a bit erratic with you points, you just seem to want to vent.

  53. #53
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You are getting a bit erratic with you points, you just seem to want to vent.
    Not really, your point was laughable. You are basically saying we should forget about all atrocities and just remember the Holocaust, and you sir have proved how strong and systematic the brain washing is.

    Go on, you can have the last word.

  54. #54
    Debut
    Apr 2005
    Runs
    6,078
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Not really, your point was laughable. You are basically saying we should forget about all atrocities and just remember the Holocaust, and you sir have proved how strong and systematic the brain washing is.

    Go on, you can have the last word.
    Like I said you are getting erratic.

  55. #55
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    That's not what I asked you. Essentially you have no empirical evidence demonstrating that even 1 Million Jews perished in Nazi Germany. But you accept this figure between 6 to 13 Million based on some books, and some 3000 tonnes of paper record which you have not read. By the way, does this record include the figure first quoted by the Red Cross in the 300K region?

    The point is, you demand empirical evidence supporting the numbers claimed in the OP, but are swift to believe books and historians when it suits the post WW2 narrative.

    Anyway, forgot the above, tell me why aren't Churchill's policies, which contributed to 1943 Bengal famine, taught in UK schools?
    So until I have read the 3000 tonnes of records you think I should be a Holocaust denier?

    I think I will accept the synthesis of the historians, like I accept the words of Doctors without having studied medicine myself, drive on the Severn Bridge without having a degree in civil engineering, and accept that Nelson is buried in the crypt at St Paul’s without being an undertaker or taking a crowbar to his tomb. There are people who know more than me about these subjects so I follow them.

    Let’s see more academics corroborate the rape figures. At present I see two disagreeing. I have taken the side of one because the Red Army soldiers had a far greater drive to seek revenge on the Germans than the US and British Armies.

    As for your Churchill point I suppose the Empire’s misdeeds rarely reached some soil. I don’t know what history is taught in schools and what is not.

  56. #56
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    How would Hess have overseen one million deaths, and that too in one camp, in just 10-11 months?

    Germany was primary focussed on defeating France/Britain which didn't happen till French surrender in June 1940. Hess landed in Scotland in May 1941.

    Further, Auschwitz didn't even have the capacity for the 1 million mentioned. It was only expanded prior to commencement of Operation Barbarossa in anticipation of the Soviet POWs.

    So where did this 1 million figure come from?

    Gassing supposedly started in September 1941 and that too on Soviets (who were bigger victims than Jews yet people can only ever recall 6 million Jews).

    There is no doubt war crimes were commited, however you seem to have numbers, victims and timelines completely muddled up.
    I did’t mention Hess. The one million figure comes from Hoess’s personal testimony under cross-examination, and camp records.

  57. #57
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    And those cities had hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not all cities had military production facilities. So, in no other terms, it was deliberate murder of civilians.
    Yes, and had a Luftwaffe bomb landed on my grandparents’ paved street instead of metres away in the soil of a neighbour’s garden, my family would have been erased and I would never have been born. This is the way nations made war then. Given the technology of the day, the smallest thing you could hit with bombs from 20,000 feet was a city centre. All cities were bases for resupply, centres for troops rest and recuperation, records offices and communication centres.

  58. #58
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    28,368
    Mentioned
    260 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The threat of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - does indeed save lives though, Pakistan/India is he perfect example.
    I was talking about Hiroshema and Nagasaki. Not many lives saved there, but of course the counter argument is, western lives were saved because it ended the war.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  59. #59
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So until I have read the 3000 tonnes of records you think I should be a Holocaust denier?
    Where did you get that from? You need to stop this fascination with the Holocaust. There is a difference with a denier, and a revisionists. I never said anything of the sort. My point was simple, you put faith in 3000 tonnes of paper you have not read, never seen the millions of bodies, and accept it as truth because historians says so. Why not extend this process with respect to the OP? That was my point. This is why I also asked you about the Red cross figures. You know, that 1 sheet among 3000 tonnes, that says 300K died during the Nuremberg trials.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think I will accept the synthesis of the historians, like I accept the words of Doctors without having studied medicine myself, drive on the Severn Bridge without having a degree in civil engineering, and accept that Nelson is buried in the crypt at St Paul’s without being an undertaker or taking a crowbar to his tomb. There are people who know more than me about these subjects so I follow them.

    Let’s see more academics corroborate the rape figures. At present I see two disagreeing. I have taken the side of one because the Red Army soldiers had a far greater drive to seek revenge on the Germans than the US and British Armies.
    No mate, you accept what ever fits your narrative, as seen above, you do not apply the same process when verifying information.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    As for your Churchill point I suppose the Empire’s misdeeds rarely reached some soil. I don’t know what history is taught in schools and what is not.
    Yes you do know what history is taught in UK school, you and I are the product of it! Were Churchill polices, which lead to famine, taught in your school when you were studying? Certainly not mine.

    Empire's misdeed rarely reached some soil? Hello? The sun did not set on the British Empire.

    Here's the thing, when it comes to WW2, there are two main points taught in the UK. 1. Britain won the war and defeated fascism and communism (though we all know it was not Britain that won the war, but the allies.), 2. The Jewish victims.

    Everything else, including Churchill's policies etc, are not taught in UK school for the one reason that is to prop up the winner's version of the war.

  60. #60
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Pakistan
    Runs
    41,664
    Mentioned
    1946 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I was talking about Hiroshema and Nagasaki. Not many lives saved there, but of course the counter argument is, western lives were saved because it ended the war.
    I raised this point and the response I got from a certain poster was that, it was better to nuke Japan otherwise Germany would have nuked London.


    Obviously for some people a white person dying holds more importance than any other race.


    Mein inko rolaonga

  61. #61
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I was talking about Hiroshema and Nagasaki. Not many lives saved there, but of course the counter argument is, western lives were saved because it ended the war.
    After the first bomb, it is fair to say that no one knew of the damage the bomb would do, but the second bomb, that was just bullying, and interestingly, more lives had been saved because the pilot couldn't see a gap in the clouds, turned back, spotted a gap, dropped the bomb, but it landed in a confined mountainous region - Nagaski. The initial target was, Tokyo.

    Western lives were saved, but not civilians, but military, why? WW2 had pretty much ended, Germans had surrendered etc, and all that was left, was Japan.

    Of course, there was then the Cuban missile crisis. Once again, the USA were not afraid to launch an all out nuclear attack under the message it would save American lives against communism.

  62. #62
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    28,368
    Mentioned
    260 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    After the first bomb, it is fair to say that no one knew of the damage the bomb would do, but the second bomb, that was just bullying, and interestingly, more lives had been saved because the pilot couldn't see a gap in the clouds, turned back, spotted a gap, dropped the bomb, but it landed in a confined mountainous region - Nagaski. The initial target was, Tokyo.

    Western lives were saved, but not civilians, but military, why? WW2 had pretty much ended, Germans had surrendered etc, and all that was left, was Japan.

    Of course, there was then the Cuban missile crisis. Once again, the USA were not afraid to launch an all out nuclear attack under the message it would save American lives against communism.
    I think the world has become a lot more conscious about the holistic damage done by a nuclear weapon than back in those days. Back then the generals would have just seen it as an unpleasant tactic, but at the end of the day it was a bunch of Nips dying far away somewhere in the east. Now people would be wondering if there would be knock on effects for us further west with regard to environment. But you do still get the majority of Brits who will argue that it was necessary to nuke the Japs to win the war.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  63. #63
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I think the world has become a lot more conscious about the holistic damage done by a nuclear weapon than back in those days. Back then the generals would have just seen it as an unpleasant tactic, but at the end of the day it was a bunch of Nips dying far away somewhere in the east. Now people would be wondering if there would be knock on effects for us further west with regard to environment. But you do still get the majority of Brits who will argue that it was necessary to nuke the Japs to win the war.
    Of course they would! The Brits did not win the war, the allies did, and ever since then, Britain has been riding on the coat-tails of the USA while concealing their dark side. The claim that it was necessary to nuke the Japs to win the war is just an excuse when global police (USA & UK) are brought to task when it comes to their morals and principles, when really anyone who has not soaked up the post WW2 propaganda will tell you the war was pretty much over by the time Japan was remapped by 2 bombs.

  64. #64
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Well if its out in the public then its out there.
    Education starts in school, and if the UK curriculum is bias, then you can see how early the brainwashing starts, which is why by the time said kids are at Uni, all public information challenging the narrative they were taught in school is greeted by social labels such as Conspiracy Theorist, Holocaust Denier, Racist, etc.

    In the UK, we are taught of the evil man called Hitler, and of his evil deeds. Never are we taught in detail on how Hitler turned Wiemar Hyperinflation Germany into a European superpower within 10 years (the reason why he was so popular in Germany). The guy puts food on the table, money in the pockets, Germany on the map again. Sure the argument can always be made that power corrupted him, but the fact is what he did for Germany, has never, and may never be seen again.

    The methods he used are still valid today and if implemented would take the UK, or any other country, out of austerity & depression. He started it all with one simple task - he issued government backed currency, which meant there was no interest on loans as there was no central bank. This lead to an economic boom, Germans had disposable cash, and before you know it, Germany was a powerhouse again. Then there are various agreements which were kept from public, such as the Balfour declaration, and the Haavara agreement, but soon released to the public as government archives.

    Of course no one in the West likes to discuss why Germany was blamed for WW1, paid the price, when it was Austria-Hungary who started WW1. The Treaty of Versailles lay the blame firmly on Germany, and no guesses for who was responsible for producing the treaty, the result was Wiemar Germany.

    I am tired of people blaming so and so, I rather study the cause so that we do not repeat the mistakes, but here we have a situation where people are not interested in identifying cause, just interested in sustaining a narrative for political and economical gains.

    Austerity has always lead to the rise of fascism, and in the UK, the situation is no different, with Brexit being a symptom, with austerity being the cause, but rather than discuss how the austerity could end by changing the underlying capitalist model, social labels are hurled instead.

  65. #65
    Debut
    Jan 2015
    Runs
    666
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I did’t mention Hess. The one million figure comes from Hoess’s personal testimony under cross-examination, and camp records.
    Ha! How did I manage to mix the two up. My bad, comment retracted.

  66. #66
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Simply untrue.
    Over a million were killed by the Soviets alone. Hundreds of thousands killed by Americans, some by British.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  67. #67
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I was talking about Hiroshema and Nagasaki. Not many lives saved there, but of course the counter argument is, western lives were saved because it ended the war.
    A million Marines. And probably five million Japanese if the mainland had to be invaded.

  68. #68
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Over a million were killed by the Soviets alone. Hundreds of thousands killed by Americans, some by British.
    Ok, I thought you meant the Western allies only.

    I don’t believe the Americans murdered 100K prisoners of war. That would imply a deliberate mass murder policy.

  69. #69
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I think the world has become a lot more conscious about the holistic damage done by a nuclear weapon than back in those days. Back then the generals would have just seen it as an unpleasant tactic, but at the end of the day it was a bunch of Nips dying far away somewhere in the east. Now people would be wondering if there would be knock on effects for us further west with regard to environment. But you do still get the majority of Brits who will argue that it was necessary to nuke the Japs to win the war.
    Not necessary, but the alternatives would have been more terrible yet. Either naval blockade and mass starvation or mainland invasion - both resulting in megadeath.

  70. #70
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    I raised this point and the response I got from a certain poster was that, it was better to nuke Japan otherwise Germany would have nuked London.


    Obviously for some people a white person dying holds more importance than any other race.
    Such a miserable distortion of my words.

    And ignorance of history. Germany surrendered months before the nuclear strikes against Japan.

    What I said was whoever discovered the technology first would use it first.

  71. #71
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ok, I thought you meant the Western allies only.

    I don’t believe the Americans murdered 100K prisoners of war. That would imply a deliberate mass murder policy.
    Soviets were allies and took many POWS handed over by others nations such as Britian. This is equal responsiblity imo.

    US camps were nasty and barbaric. 100k+ did die/killed. Not sure why you would even think the US is not capalbe of mass murder, they are the experts.

    Robert, Nazis were bad but the aliies were no better in terms of how they conducted war and how they treated POWS. We have no part of this being British, so no shame in accepting the truth. I would go further to say the UK should open an investigation to bring out the truth but when the UK is still a poodle of America helping to blow up children with fighter jets, this wont happen.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  72. #72
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Where did you get that from? You need to stop this fascination with the Holocaust. There is a difference with a denier, and a revisionists. I never said anything of the sort. My point was simple, you put faith in 3000 tonnes of paper you have not read, never seen the millions of bodies, and accept it as truth because historians says so. Why not extend this process with respect to the OP? That was my point. This is why I also asked you about the Red cross figures. You know, that 1 sheet among 3000 tonnes, that says 300K died during the Nuremberg trials.




    No mate, you accept what ever fits your narrative, as seen above, you do not apply the same process when verifying information.




    Yes you do know what history is taught in UK school, you and I are the product of it! Were Churchill polices, which lead to famine, taught in your school when you were studying? Certainly not mine.

    Empire's misdeed rarely reached some soil? Hello? The sun did not set on the British Empire.

    Here's the thing, when it comes to WW2, there are two main points taught in the UK. 1. Britain won the war and defeated fascism and communism (though we all know it was not Britain that won the war, but the allies.), 2. The Jewish victims.

    Everything else, including Churchill's policies etc, are not taught in UK school for the one reason that is to prop up the winner's version of the war.
    I never raised the Holocaust - my original point up the was about mass murder of Poles and Slavs by the Wehrmacht, separate from the Final Solution.

    Ok I will say it again. I find the opinion of the vast bulk of historians (on the Holocaust) more credible than the opinion of one single revisionist (on rape of German women by American troops).

    I don’t know what is taught in schools as I have not been there for decades, and even when I was I didn’t study history past age 14. I took the Music O-level instead of History. I think the last thing I studied at school might have been the English Civil War. Nothing about WW2 did I learn in school.

  73. #73
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Soviets were allies and took many POWS handed over by others nations such as Britian. This is equal responsiblity imo.

    US camps were nasty and barbaric. 100k+ did die/killed. Not sure why you would even think the US is not capalbe of mass murder, they are the experts.

    Robert, Nazis were bad but the aliies were no better in terms of how they conducted war and how they treated POWS. We have no part of this being British, so no shame in accepting the truth. I would go further to say the UK should open an investigation to bring out the truth but when the UK is still a poodle of America helping to blow up children with fighter jets, this wont happen.
    May I present, Iraq 2003. An illegal war, planned and executed, by the USA & UK, but never would Bush or Blair be tried for War Crimes, yet 100Ks innocent Iraqi died. I do not see any law protecting this truth.

  74. #74
    Debut
    Jan 2010
    Runs
    35,785
    Mentioned
    695 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    May I present, Iraq 2003. An illegal war, planned and executed, by the USA & UK, but never would Bush or Blair be tried for War Crimes, yet 100Ks innocent Iraqi died. I do not see any law protecting this truth.
    The Iraq war is one of the worst cases of terrorism, murder you will ever find in history. Yet Blair and Bush are not only roaming around free but on T.V as some sort of great past leaders.

    Oh my bad, too many 100 year old Nazis to find and sort out first.

    The other issue I have is why did Hitler and Nazi Germany come to power? Did they come out of thin air or where there reasons?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  75. #75
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I never raised the Holocaust - my original point up the was about mass murder of Poles and Slavs by the Wehrmacht, separate from the Final Solution.

    Ok I will say it again. I find the opinion of the vast bulk of historians (on the Holocaust) more credible than the opinion of one single revisionist (on rape of German women by American troops).

    I don’t know what is taught in schools as I have not been there for decades, and even when I was I didn’t study history past age 14. I took the Music O-level instead of History. I think the last thing I studied at school might have been the English Civil War. Nothing about WW2 did I learn in school.
    You are right, you did not raise the Holocaust, but you did raise the level of evidence required for you to be convinced of the OP, in the millions, but you did not apply this stringent verification with the Holocaust.

    I am more surprised by the fact you did not learn anything about WW2 at school, I really am. Yet you find the vast bulk of historians to be credible, devoid of any study at school? Wow.

    At the end of the day, you are free to believe what you want, I just asked for consistency, but ultimately here is the difference - you can deny the OP, and there is not a single person or law that'll criminalize you for having such an opinion, but if I, or anyone else, denies the Holocaust narrative in the West, we'd be criminals in 14 nations serving a prison sentence.

    The truth does not need the law to protect it.

  76. #76
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    27,391
    Mentioned
    901 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Soviets were allies and took many POWS handed over by others nations such as Britian. This is equal responsiblity imo.

    US camps were nasty and barbaric. 100k+ did die/killed. Not sure why you would even think the US is not capalbe of mass murder, they are the experts.

    Robert, Nazis were bad but the aliies were no better in terms of how they conducted war and how they treated POWS. We have no part of this being British, so no shame in accepting the truth. I would go further to say the UK should open an investigation to bring out the truth but when the UK is still a poodle of America helping to blow up children with fighter jets, this wont happen.
    You are right about American Civil War camps, POWs had little chance in those. Disease and malnutrition would get them.

    The internment camps for Japanese-Americans in WW2 were pretty bad too.

    But WW2 POW camps in the US were very good. Germans came out after the war having gained weight. They got prison pay and could work on farms.

  77. #77
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    The Iraq war is one of the worst cases of terrorism, murder you will ever find in history. Yet Blair and Bush are not only roaming around free but on T.V as some sort of great past leaders.

    Oh my bad, too many 100 year old Nazis to find and sort out first.

    The other issue I have is why did Hitler and Nazi Germany come to power? Did they come out of thin air or where there reasons?
    Hitler rose through power after he issued government backed currency thus abolishing the central bank. I don't need to tell you who controls central banks, but the fact is Hitler pulled Germany out of hyperinflation, turned Germany into a European power, on the verge of becoming global within 10 years. He actually kept his promise as a politician - by bringing prosperity to Germany. He did it. Germans had nothing after WW1, now they see a leader who gave them everything.

    There are 3 pieces of evidence which clearly reveal that Hitler was not acting alone:

    1. Balfour Declaration.
    2. Havaana Agreement.
    3. Benjamin Freedman's 1961 Speech at the Willard Hotel

    If you have not heard the speech, it will blow your mind. Here it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

  78. #78
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    28,368
    Mentioned
    260 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Not necessary, but the alternatives would have been more terrible yet. Either naval blockade and mass starvation or mainland invasion - both resulting in megadeath.
    I know we Brits are by reputation often accused of arrogance, but how would naval blockade, mass starvation or mainland invasion be considered a worse fate than being oblieterated from existence? Would you have prefered a nuke dropped on your home town if it won the war for the successful side?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  79. #79
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    You are right about American Civil War camps, POWs had little chance in those. Disease and malnutrition would get them.

    The internment camps for Japanese-Americans in WW2 were pretty bad too.

    But WW2 POW camps in the US were very good. Germans came out after the war having gained weight. They got prison pay and could work on farms.
    Like Guantanamo Bay?

  80. #80
    Debut
    Feb 2019
    Runs
    2,956
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Hitler rose through power after he issued government backed currency thus abolishing the central bank. I don't need to tell you who controls central banks, but the fact is Hitler pulled Germany out of hyperinflation, turned Germany into a European power, on the verge of becoming global within 10 years. He actually kept his promise as a politician - by bringing prosperity to Germany. He did it. Germans had nothing after WW1, now they see a leader who gave them everything.

    There are 3 pieces of evidence which clearly reveal that Hitler was not acting alone:

    1. Balfour Declaration.
    2. Havaana Agreement.
    3. Benjamin Freedman's 1961 Speech at the Willard Hotel

    If you have not heard the speech, it will blow your mind. Here it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c
    I forgot to add, none of the above, including Germany's rise from Wiemar Germany to European power, is taught in UK schools. In fact, if you remember, Ken Livingstone mentioned Havaana agreement and was consequently shot down, accused of Anti-Semitisim, and then abandon from the Labour party.

    The Holocaust is the 3rd rail of history, touch it and you are dead, because that is where all the power is, in the West anyway.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •