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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Easier access for Asian-born people is a fair point about Brexit. I imagine that we will see more Indian faces when the trade deal with India is done - which white British racists won't like

    I still have my eighties passport - it is black, not blue.

    Don't think I will renew my British passport, I will stick with my Irish one which means I keep the four freedoms.
    The 80s passport was blue mate. Very dark blue, can be mistaken for black, but it's actually blue.

    Passports are assigned colours.

    Green - Islamic nation
    Red - European
    Blue - Western (non EU) like USA
    Black - African nations

    https://www.insider.com/why-passport...colours-2016-3

    The new points based immigration system will ensure UK allows quality immigrants, not quantity.

    PS: Asian immigration process is now tougher, but applies to all immigrants.
    Last edited by Technics 1210; 27th December 2020 at 20:27.

  2. #482
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    The fishermen arenít happy...

    https://nffo.org.uk/news/miniscule-m...-pathetic.html


    MINISCULE, MARGINAL, PALTRY, PATHETIC

    Some of the adjectives that will be in circulation within the UK fishing industry today, to describe the change in UK quota shares as the UK leaves the EU and the CFP, and the content of what was agreed in Brussels on Christmas eve sinks in. Some of the bell-weather stocks tell the story most vividly, After a further five years adjustment period, the UKís share of Channel cod will have increased from 9.3% to 10.2%.

    The UKís share of Celtic Sea haddock will have increased from 10% to 20%, leaving 80% in the hands of the EU fleets for a further five years.

    North Sea saithe: UK share increases from 23% to 26%, again, in steps over 5 years, leaving the lionís share in EU hands.

    In the meantime, EU fleets have free access to fish in UK waters Ė including up to six miles of the shoreline in the areas where it matters.

    Throughout the fishing industry there is a profound sense of disillusionment, betrayal, and fury that after all the rhetoric, promises and assurances, the Government caved-in on fish.

    This was a decision taken at the highest political levels and it is important that responsibility is taken for the choices made. This is no time for spin.

    It is unlikely that obstacles in the road will now derail the ratification process, but the fishing industry will want it clearly understood that the best opportunity in a generation for a different and better future has been squandered.

  3. #483
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    More on fishing:

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/brexit-fisheries-deal-its-so-bad-wed-be-better-off-staying
    -in-the-eu/?fbclid=IwAR3wVGUaj_XJ0O4e8DOrAO9Et2004YOWkW2JZ3OH i4KdcYs8exbag_qj8FU


    I SUPPOSE that during the Christmas period, with the concerns of Covid-19 hanging over us, to hear that Brexit is done and dusted, that we are free of the EU and will shortly be a sovereign independent coastal state, has brought cheer. One person who will certainly be enjoying the unfolding events is Guy Verhofstadt, the previous European Parliament’s Brexit co-ordinator who said in a TV documentary last year: ‘We got rid of them. We kicked them out. We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment.’ Today he must be jubilant.

    Having spent most of Saturday and yesterday going through the fisheries section of the trade agreement, it didn’t take me long to realise I was reading the most humiliating document ever: very little about sovereignty, but a merger, where the leading player is the EU.

    I haven’t had time to study all the other areas so this article is related to fisheries, where we will be controlled by a specialist committee, even down to the qualifications required to be on such a committee. Although the UK has withdrawn from the London Fisheries Convention, we have still given way on parts of our territorial waters, within the six to 12 nautical miles.

    I keep hoping I will wake up from a bad dream and find that the contents are not true. Alas, they are: so bad that there is very little gain in some places, in others none. One would think the document is a preparation to rejoin the EU; it has certainly handed a gift to the SNP in their quest for independence. One could even say we would be better off staying in.

    So where has it gone so terribly wrong? On November 3, in a TCW article headed ‘French play high-stakes poker in the fishing war’, I wrote: ‘Why could fishing, of little value to the economies of both the UK and France, crash a possible EU trade deal? As negotiations near a conclusion, this was the question Andrew Marr asked the French Europe Minister Clement Beaune on his Sunday show.

    ‘The reply was unusual. M Beaune said fisheries are important to both of us, but let us respect both interests. Let us find a solution. Look at the big picture: if there is no deal there is no access to EU market for the UK. Leaving the EU is about sovereignty, but for a trade agreement and beyond you have to combine two sovereignties, you have to respect both. If you want access to a common market you have to respect the rules of this market both ways.’

    I should have realised there and then what was coming – two sovereignties coming together is a merger and that is what we have got, with the EU the dominant partner.

    Now this will be rushed through our Parliament without a thought that this will become the greatest act of giving our nation’s resources away, far beyond what the treacherous Edward Heath expected. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The 80s passport was blue mate. Very dark blue, can be mistaken for black, but it's actually blue.

    Passports are assigned colours.

    Green - Islamic nation
    Red - European
    Blue - Western (non EU) like USA
    Black - African nations

    https://www.insider.com/why-passport...colours-2016-3

    The new points based immigration system will ensure UK allows quality immigrants, not quantity.

    PS: Asian immigration process is now tougher, but applies to all immigrants.
    Why would new points systems discriminate against the very people who will be needed to man the care homes and hospitals? I think you might find even with all the supposed points qualifications there will be a lot of leeway given to make sure certain posts get filled.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Why would new points systems discriminate against the very people who will be needed to man the care homes and hospitals? I think you might find even with all the supposed points qualifications there will be a lot of leeway given to make sure certain posts get filled.
    The European immigration has by and large been magnificent for Britain.
    Any other system will just lead to wage inflation and businesses either increasing their prices or going bust.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Why would new points systems discriminate against the very people who will be needed to man the care homes and hospitals? I think you might find even with all the supposed points qualifications there will be a lot of leeway given to make sure certain posts get filled.
    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    The European immigration has by and large been magnificent for Britain.
    Any other system will just lead to wage inflation and businesses either increasing their prices or going bust.
    Agree with you both. When it comes to workers, the majority of low skilled workers come from EU nations. The jobs that EU workers did predominantly were in Retail and Manufacturing and Healthcare. (migration observatory incase you guys need to check) Its nothing to do with 'quality' or 'quantity', they did those jobs because noone else did them. An EU worker otherwise was not allowed to stay indefinitely unless they were doing a job, paying taxes therefore benefiting the host nation. If an EU national did not have a job beyond 3 months they were not allowed to stay in the UK. The UK deciding to get rid of these tax paying migrants from jobs that no local did and therefore losing the extra ££££ is a disaster.

    As for skilled workers, @Cpt. Rishwat is correct. Most skilled workers according to migration obs came from non-EU nations and the biggest proportion of them worked in Healthcare. The old system ie Tier 2 visas required immigrants to satisfy the £30,000 minimum salary which had to be sponsored by their employers for skilled jobs. I know this because healthcare have been begging the health sec to lobby to change this due to the chronic shortages in the NHS. The new system infact is getting rid of this salary requirement if the person has a job in the shortage occupation list (ie healthcare) and if they don't then the new salary requirement would be £25,000. Which would make it even easier for people to come. They are also accommodating a lot of Asian healthcare workers and recently earlier this year any non-EU worker who worked on the frontlines had their residence permits automatically extended. And I know there are two big petitions right now lobbying the health sec to give Indefinite stay to those workers (who are mainly Pakistani and Indian). So infact the new system would make it easier for foreign skilled workers (who are mainly Asian) to come and work as the biggest proportion of foreign workers work in occupations with shortages so the points system and the salary requirements for them would be lower.

    As for racism, the UK was in a union which allowed free travel with fellow European nations. Both ways, not sure what's racist in that. And even then you could only live in the UK for a few months and if you didn't have a job you'd have to leave. European immigration was fantastic for the UK like @IMMY69 said.

    I'd like to see the 'we send £350 million every week to the EU' been given to the NHS and other struggling sectors in the economy or to the people suffering job cuts. But ofcourse, that was all a lie.
    Last edited by Pakpak; 30th December 2020 at 03:54.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Why would new points systems discriminate against the very people who will be needed to man the care homes and hospitals? I think you might find even with all the supposed points qualifications there will be a lot of leeway given to make sure certain posts get filled.
    Discriminate?

    The points system will effectively mean that now an EU citizen must prove they have a job/qualification allowing them to work/live in the UK. (Non EU citizens have been subjected to similar checks for decades).

    Also this will reduce pressure on low wages in the UK by eliminating cash in hand workers.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Why would new points systems discriminate against the very people who will be needed to man the care homes and hospitals? I think you might find even with all the supposed points qualifications there will be a lot of leeway given to make sure certain posts get filled.
    We will have to bring in more clinicians from Asia and Africa- if they will come given the recent Hostile Environment. Word gets around.

    Though if we incentive Britons to train as clinicians there will be less need.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Discriminate?

    The points system will effectively mean that now an EU citizen must prove they have a job/qualification allowing them to work/live in the UK. (Non EU citizens have been subjected to similar checks for decades).

    Also this will reduce pressure on low wages in the UK by eliminating cash in hand workers.
    I think the gig economy is just getting started. The people who promoted Brexit want a low-wage, low-tax, low-rights economy.

    I foresee the Human Rights Act repealed in the next Parliament, and return of the death penalty.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think the gig economy is just getting started. The people who promoted Brexit want a low-wage, low-tax, low-rights economy.

    I foresee the Human Rights Act repealed in the next Parliament, and return of the death penalty.
    Return of the death penalty? That's a bit far fetched?

    Gig economy has its challenges. Right now gig workers are not protected by employment rights (the same in EU, USA etc) given the fact the gig economy is based on zero contract hour model. The companies benefit greatly from this - no pension contribution, no sick pay, no holiday etc). Could be a while before the gig economy is worthwhile and stable.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Return of the death penalty? That's a bit far fetched?

    Gig economy has its challenges. Right now gig workers are not protected by employment rights (the same in EU, USA etc) given the fact the gig economy is based on zero contract hour model. The companies benefit greatly from this - no pension contribution, no sick pay, no holiday etc). Could be a while before the gig economy is worthwhile and stable.
    If the Tories call a referendum on it, the death penalty will be re-established.

    I doubt that the gig economy will diminish under this government. It will take a progressive party to start to put employment protections back in.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    If the Tories call a referendum on it, the death penalty will be re-established.

    I doubt that the gig economy will diminish under this government. It will take a progressive party to start to put employment protections back in.
    Why would the Tories hold a referendum to restablish the death penalty? What's the gain?

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Why would the Tories hold a referendum to restablish the death penalty? What's the gain?
    More populism = more votes. Itís what a majority of people want after all.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    More populism = more votes. Itís what a majority of people want after all.
    Where's the evidence of public support for the return of the death penalty? Sounds like more scaremongering.

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    @Robert @Technics2010

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics.../Death_Penalty

    YouGov returns the following "death penalty" poll results for the UK:
    All cases of murder - majority oppose.
    Murder of a police offer - 50/50.
    Murder of a child - majority support.
    Multiple murder - strong majority support.
    Terrorism with murder - strong majority support.

    Quite stunned by these figures tbh.

    I think Robert is correct.
    A public referendum would restore the death penalty in the UK.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    @Robert @Technics2010

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics.../Death_Penalty

    YouGov returns the following "death penalty" poll results for the UK:
    All cases of murder - majority oppose.
    Murder of a police offer - 50/50.
    Murder of a child - majority support.
    Multiple murder - strong majority support.
    Terrorism with murder - strong majority support.

    Quite stunned by these figures tbh.

    I think Robert is correct.
    A public referendum would restore the death penalty in the UK.
    Iím even surprised that the Ďforí figure is that low for murder of a Police Officer.

    Mrs R says my narrative has changed sharply in the last few years. I used to have so much more belief in the goodness of people.

  17. #497
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    Those Brits who complain about immigrants, EU or otherwise, depressing wages are the same people who complain when the cost of a car wash/amazon delivery/takeaway/joiner/plumber etc goes up.

    You canít have it both ways.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I’m even surprised that the ‘for’ figure is that low for murder of a Police Officer.

    Mrs R says my narrative has changed sharply in the last few years. I used to have so much more belief in the goodness of people.
    Watch Just Mercy (Michael B Jordan and Jamie Fox).

    I know its in the states but we've had our fair share of innocent people being hanged here.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    @Robert @Technics2010

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics.../Death_Penalty

    YouGov returns the following "death penalty" poll results for the UK:
    All cases of murder - majority oppose.
    Murder of a police offer - 50/50.
    Murder of a child - majority support.
    Multiple murder - strong majority support.
    Terrorism with murder - strong majority support.

    Quite stunned by these figures tbh.

    I think Robert is correct.
    A public referendum would restore the death penalty in the UK.
    I'm quite shocked at these figures too: though in the case of murder of a child it is understandable.

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    If the issue ever comes up, personally I would vote against restoring the death penalty as an option for judges when they are deciding on a sentence.
    I don't agree that condemning a convicted person to death is morally the right thing for the state to do, and I don't think it works as a deterrent either. There could also be mistakes made during the criminal justice process, leading to miscarriages of justice which could not be undone.
    I would instead support longer and stiffer sentencing rules for the most serious crimes, including the use of whole life tariffs where justifiable and applicable.

    Anyway, it's a Brexit thread.
    The Brexit Bill has passed the Commons and is expected to pass the Lords as well, before going up to the Queen for Royal Assent.

    The UK-EU transitory period will officially end at 23:00PM on New Year's Eve --- tomorrow night. (For the avoidance of doubt - we have already left the EU and we are no longer full members.)


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    My FB is displaying videos of Our Future Our Choice founder, Femi Oluwole, getting owned in the past few years.

    Oh man, sheer delightful viewing of Remainers trying so hard to overturn the result. 23:00 tomorrow will be the final nail in the coffin.

  22. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    If the issue ever comes up, personally I would vote against restoring the death penalty as an option for judges when they are deciding on a sentence.
    I don't agree that condemning a convicted person to death is morally the right thing for the state to do, and I don't think it works as a deterrent either. There could also be mistakes made during the criminal justice process, leading to miscarriages of justice which could not be undone.
    I would instead support longer and stiffer sentencing rules for the most serious crimes, including the use of whole life tariffs where justifiable and applicable.

    Anyway, it's a Brexit thread.
    The Brexit Bill has passed the Commons and is expected to pass the Lords as well, before going up to the Queen for Royal Assent.


    The UK-EU transitory period will officially end at 23:00PM on New Year's Eve --- tomorrow night. (For the avoidance of doubt - we have already left the EU and we are no longer full members.)

    Three Shadow Ministers have resigned the whip so they could voted Against.

    Not sure what Starmer's thought process was here. A lot of left voters seem really disappointed in him. He may be playing the long game with regard to getting the North wall back.

  23. #503
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    All the Scot Nats, all the Libs, all Plaid and all the NI MPs who take their seats voted against.

    I guess it feeds directly into the Scot Nats agenda. The DUP won’t want any preferential treatment - even though NI is now the most advantageous place in the UK. Less sure what the play for the UUP and Alliance are. What does @Donal Cozzie say?

  24. #504
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    Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back post-Brexit deal with EU

    MPs have overwhelmingly approved the UK's post-Brexit trade deal with the EU in a parliamentary vote.

    A bill bringing the deal into UK law was backed by the Commons by 521 to 73 votes after Parliament was recalled.

    The majority of Labour MPs voted for the agreement after leader Sir Keir Starmer said a "thin deal was better than no deal".

    The UK will sever its ties with the EU at 23.00 GMT on Thursday, four and a half years after the Brexit referendum.

    The agreement hammered out with Brussels over nine months sets out a new business and security relationship between the UK and its biggest trading partner.

    The EU (Future Relationship) Bill is being rushed through Parliament in a single day and is set to become law late on Wednesday once it has received Royal Assent.

    After five hours of debate in the Commons, it passed its two legislative hurdles by huge margins, thanks to Mr Johnson's large majority and the support of the Labour Party. It is now being considered by the Lords.

    In an interview with the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg, the prime minister said the treaty would allow the UK to "go our own way but also have free trade" with the EU.

    He said: "There will be changes. And we've been very clear with people that they have to get ready for 1 January, things will work differently.

    "But from the point of view of UK exporters, for instance, they'll now have the advantage, that they'll only have one set of forms they have to fill out for export to around the whole world."

    Offering his backing, Sir Keir - who campaigned against Brexit - told MPs he wanted to "avoid a no deal and put in place a floor from which we can build a strong future relationship".

    But he accused the prime minister of not being honest with the public about the deal, which he said would lead to an "avalanche of checks, bureaucracy and red tape for British businesses".

    'Gaping hole'

    There was also a "gaping hole" in the agreement when it came to the service sector, which accounts for about 80% of the UK's economic output, said Sir Keir.

    "The lack of ambition here is striking," he told MPs, saying there was a lack of mutual recognition of professional standards with the EU, which would make life more difficult for people who wanted to work abroad.

    One Labour MP Bell Ribeiro-Addy voted against the deal while 36 others also defied their leader's orders by either not voting at all or actively abstaining.

    Three of these - Helen Hayes, Florence Eshalomi and Tonia Antoniazzi - resigned their junior frontbench positions as a result.

    'Good neighbours'
    All other opposition parties, including the SNP, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and all Northern Ireland parties that take seats at Westminster, also voted against the deal.

    Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey said the deal would "undermine our children's future", while the SNP's Ian Blackford said Scotland's fishing industry had been "betrayed" and the country's future "must be European".

    And Green Party MP Caroline Lucas said it would undermine hard-won environmental and consumer protections and leave the UK "less equipped" to respond to the climate emergency.

    Only two Tory MPs failed to support the deal - Brexiteers John Redwood and Owen Paterson abstaining.

    Members of the European Research Group (ERG) who helped sink Theresa May's EU withdrawal deal in 2019, lined up to praise the deal. Sir Bill Cash said the PM had achieved the seemingly "impossible" while Sir Iain Duncan Smith said it represented a "huge advance on where we might have been".

    And Steve Brine, one of the 21 Tory MPs who lost the whip last year after defying the government over Brexit, said he would back a deal that left the UK "culturally, emotionally, historically and strategically attached" to Europe.

    "We now have a new future to look forward to," he said. "It won't be the same. We should never have pretended it will and that's OK. It is time to come together and to move on."
    Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55478513.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    All the Scot Nats, all the Libs, all Plaid and all the NI MPs who take their seats voted against.

    I guess it feeds directly into the Scot Nats agenda. The DUP won’t want any preferential treatment - even though NI is now the most advantageous place in the UK. Less sure what the play for the UUP and Alliance are. What does @Donal Cozzie say?
    The play as always is to sleepwalk into a united ireland while pretending England gives a damn


    See You Space Cowboy....

  26. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    The play as always is to sleepwalk into a united ireland while pretending England gives a damn
    OK, DUP aren't smart, but SDLP and Alliance too?

    Didn't realise the UUP are wiped out in Parliament.

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    Brexit: UK braced for changes as it cuts ties to EU

    The UK will cut ties with the European Union at 11pm - almost a year after officially leaving the 27-nation bloc.

    The trade deal agreed between Boris Johnson and EU chiefs avoids the need for import taxes - tariffs - which many businesses had feared.

    But there will still be major changes to rules on travel, immigration, commerce, living and working abroad - as well as crime fighting and security.

    Haulage firms remain concerned about hold-ups at ports.

    Fears of giant tailbacks of lorries at Dover - in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU single market and customs union - have receded, but uncertainty remains about new customs rules.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55497671


    Arsenal all the way!! (and Pakistan, of course!)

  28. #508
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    7 hours to go till 23:00!

    A new future for UK will begin.

    In the meantime I may entertain myself with this : Femi on Talkradio. Old, but absolute gold!

    https://youtu.be/Npxa_74NF8k


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    OK, DUP aren't smart, but SDLP and Alliance too?

    Didn't realise the UUP are wiped out in Parliament.
    They'll campaign for special status next if possible, they certainly won't be happy to be staying outside the EU even if NI has preferential treatment in some ways.

    SDLP will probably aim to achieve this through reunification as they are a Nationalist party, Alliance will lobby the EU for some form of special membership I'd guess, although neither will have any major impact as neither hold any relevance in ROI or the UK.


    See You Space Cowboy....

  30. #510
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    A new dawn begins for the United Kingdom.

    No planes have fallen out the sky.


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    How do you feel Remoaners? 4.5 years of trying to subvert and overturn the largest democratic result in UK history.

    You lost. Democracy won.

    Better luck next time in 30 odd years.


  32. #512
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  33. #513
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    Brexit: New era for UK as it completes separation from European Union

    A new era has begun for the United Kingdom after it completed its formal separation from the European Union.

    The UK stopped following EU rules at 23:00 GMT, as replacement arrangements for travel, trade, immigration and security co-operation came into force.

    Boris Johnson said the UK had "freedom in our hands" and the ability to do things "differently and better" now the long Brexit process was over.

    French President Emmanuel Macron said the UK remained a "friend and ally".

    UK ministers have warned there will be some disruption in the coming days and weeks, as new rules bed in and British firms trading with the continent come to terms with the changes.

    Officials have insisted new border systems are "ready to go" amid fears of hold-ups at ports.

    The UK officially left the 27-member political and economic bloc on 31 January, three and half years after the UK public voted to leave in the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    But it has stuck to the EU's trading rules for the past 11 months while the two sides negotiated their future economic partnership.

    After trade talks went down to the wire, a landmark treaty was finally agreed on Christmas Eve. It became law in the UK on Wednesday after it was approved by Parliament.

    Under the new arrangements, which came into force at 24.00 CET, UK manufacturers will have tariff-free access to the EU's internal market, meaning there will be no import taxes on goods crossing between Britain and the continent.

    But it does mean more paperwork for businesses and people travelling to EU countries while there is still uncertainty about what it will happen to banking and services, which are a major part of the UK economy.
    Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55502781.



  34. #514
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    Cornish fishermen are seriously angry.....

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN29415G


    NEWLYN, England (Reuters) - For England’s fishermen, Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s Brexit trade deal is a betrayal because it allows some European Union boats continued access to Britain’s rich inshore coastal waters.

    Johnson, who led the 2016 Brexit campaign, cast the Christmas Eve trade deal as a way to take back control of the United Kingdom’s destiny including as an “independent coastal state with full control of our waters.”

    But in Newlyn, an ancient Cornish fishing port as far from London as Paris, there is anger that Johnson has let EU boats continue plying the rich 6-12 nautical mile inshore fishing zone.

    “Boris the betrayer has slayed us and we won’t forget,” Phil Mitchell, the 51-year-old skipper of the 23-metre Govenek of Ladram, told Reuters aboard the boat. “We had the opportunity to actually take back control and we’ve passed it up.”

    “They were happy to use us for their campaign and when push has come to shove, we’ve had the shove and we’ve been dumped on from a great height,” said Mitchell, a Brexit supporter who says a historic opportunity has been squandered yet again by leaders 290 miles (470 km) away in London.

    From the boats in Newlyn, England’s biggest fishing port by tonnage landed, to the fishermen’s cottages perched above the harbour, the feeling of betrayal is all around.

    The anger gives an insight into the motivations of the frenzied five-year Brexit crisis and the limits of the settlement that Johnson has tried to impose after the United Kingdom’s tempestuous 48-year liaison with the EU.

    “We’ve been sold out,” said David Stevens, 46-year-old skipper of the 24.5 metre Crystal Sea twin-rig demersal trawler. “The most galling kick in the teeth for us is the continued access for EU vessels inside the 12-mile limit.”

    “The industry was used as a pawn all the way through - held up as the reason to be leaving - yet they have thrown us under the bus,” said Stevens.

    The cry of taking back control of British waters helped Brexiteers such as Johnson win the 2016 referendum in which 52 percent of the United Kingdom voted to leave.

    For fishermen from Cornwall to Scotland, EU membership and the decline of fishing go hand in hand. They voted for Brexit in droves.

    The United Kingdom’s fishing fleet has halved over the past 30 years to below 6,000 boats from more than 11,000. More than half of the UK fleet was built before 1991. The United Kingdom - surrounded by sea - is a net importer of fish.

    The fishermen in Newlyn said they were betrayed by in 1973 when Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath led the United Kingdom into the European project, and that they are being betrayed on the way out too.

    “In 1973, Ted Heath, he sacrificed fishing to get the deal to go into Europe,” said Stevens, a Brexit supporter who fishes for lemon sole, ray and turbot. “Coming out of Europe, Boris has done the same, but it’s worse this time.”

    Johnson’s deal with the EU secures British trade with the bloc free of tariffs and quotas on goods, vital for industries much larger than fishing. But fish were among the final issues to be hammered out, with the EU negotiating hard on behalf of politically influential coastal communities in France and other countries that have fished British waters for centuries.

    Johnson said the deal increases the quota for British fishermen equal to 25% of the value of the EU catch in UK waters, and will be phased in over 5 years.

    “I can assure great fish fanatics in this country, we will, as a result of this deal, be able to catch and eat quite prodigious quantities of extra fish,” Johnson said on Dec. 24 about the deal.

    While the government has said some EU vessels will have access to some UK territorial waters for the 5-year adjustment period, fishermen said in practise EU boats will retain the rights forever.

    Given the complexity of the deal texts, even maritime lawyers are uncertain of the full details. The agriculture ministry declined to immediately clarify the 12-mile limit rules.

    For the fishermen, Johnson’s rhetoric is galling.

    “Absolutely stomached - gutted to the core,” said Mitchell of Johnson’s deal which he said has given France what it wanted over fish.

    “You sold us out - don’t lie to us,” said Stevens. “Just own up. Just tell us as it is: you sold us out. Don’t lie to us. If that was for the better of the country then fine - but just admit it.”

    Fishermen suspect Johnson traded fish for other issues. While fishing alone contributed just 0.03% of British economic output, or 0.1% of UK GDP if processing is included, for the fishing communities of Britain it is a lifeline and a way of life that goes back thousands of years.

    Excluding foreign vessels from the 6-12 mile limit was a ‘red line’ for fishermen as the coastal area is considered a nursery, both for fish and for fishermen learning the trade.

    “All the optimism has gone - we’ve had four years of hoping we will get our fisheries back,” said Stevens. “Boris has betrayed us and it lies at his door - he owns it.”


  35. #515
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    Now NI is in the Customs Union, will Ireland reunify? The SDLP leader says yes.

    https://www.derryjournal.com/news/po...stwood-3082170

    Mr Eastwood claimed the British government, in their rush to appease English nationalist sentiment stirred up during the referendum campaign, has consistently ignored the needs, hopes and ambitions of people in the north of Ireland, while the trade deal “diminishes Britain in almost every respect”.

    He said: “Devolved administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have rejected the Brexit that this government has negotiated. That creates a very deep fracture on all sides of the union and it is right that people are entering a conversation about what future will best meet their aspirations.

    “I believe the union is ending but I don’t say that through thoughtless triumphalism. I understand that our scarred history places a solemn duty on all of us to conduct the coming conversation with patience, generosity and compassion. So I appeal to my fellow nationalists - there is no future worth having that celebrates the murder of our unionist neighbours. And I appeal to our unionist neighbours - look at where the DUP has led you and look at where London has left you. It is my firm conviction that we can build a new society together, based on mutual respect and celebrating all of our rich heritage.

  36. #516
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    So let's recap...

    Only thing agreed is Immigration and that Northern Ireland will remain in the single market.
    Everything else is still up for discussion...

    Have I missed something?

  37. #517
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    First lorry passes through Eurotunnel controls after UK leaves single market!

    https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB1co9GP?m=en-...rID=InAppShare

    What an auspicious moment!

  38. #518
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    16 hours and counting since Brexit.

    Nothing much seems to have changed thus far.

  39. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    So let's recap...

    Only thing agreed is Immigration and that Northern Ireland will remain in the single market.
    Everything else is still up for discussion...

    Have I missed something?
    NI remains in the Customs Union, not the single market.

    We are out of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.

    Imported and exported goods are tariff-free, but importers and exporters must fill out forms, and more trucks will be held up at customs. There is a six-month grace period where they will roll through checkpoints as they did when we were in the EU.

    Gibraltar is now in Schengen, which gets round the problem of thousands of workers crossing into Spain every day.

  40. #520
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    VAT on women's sanitary products has been slashed to zero bringing an end to the so-called 'tampon tax'

    Eliminating VAT on goods was not possible while in the EU, the chancellor has full control now, no need to seek EU permission anymore.

    We're not even into day 2 of the new year, and benefits are already showing.

  41. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    16 hours and counting since Brexit.

    Nothing much seems to have changed thus far.
    That's because tariffs haven't kicked in yet under the signed agreement.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  42. #522
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    Just an example, I just ordered the highly rated Logitech MX keyboard and it is no longer available on Amazon UK, I have to wait an extra week (estimated) to get it delivered from Amazon EU. Plus I have to pay a £10 surplus for the privilege.

    Well maybe Indians will start producing high quality tech products which we trust, and replicate build quality and engineering of Europeans, but looking at their streets I am not that confident.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  43. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Just an example, I just ordered the highly rated Logitech MX keyboard and it is no longer available on Amazon UK, I have to wait an extra week (estimated) to get it delivered from Amazon EU. Plus I have to pay a £10 surplus for the privilege.

    Well maybe Indians will start producing high quality tech products which we trust, and replicate build quality and engineering of Europeans, but looking at their streets I am not that confident.
    Logistics have been disrupted due to C19 most likely. What's the 10 for? Delivery charge?

  44. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    VAT on women's sanitary products has been slashed to zero bringing an end to the so-called 'tampon tax'

    Eliminating VAT on goods was not possible while in the EU, the chancellor has full control now, no need to seek EU permission anymore.

    We're not even into day 2 of the new year, and benefits are already showing.

    OK well enjoy your tampns...

    Meanwhile, Amazon UK has started slapping taxes on EU-bound goods. Looks like it's off to Amazon.de for me.

  45. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane View Post
    OK well enjoy your tampns...

    Meanwhile, Amazon UK has started slapping taxes on EU-bound goods. Looks like it's off to Amazon.de for me.
    You don't mind paying 20% VAT, but are complaining about Amazon UK slapping taxes? What are these taxes? How much? be specific.

    Of course, you are free to use alternates to Amazon UK.

  46. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    VAT on women's sanitary products has been slashed to zero bringing an end to the so-called 'tampon tax'

    Eliminating VAT on goods was not possible while in the EU, the chancellor has full control now, no need to seek EU permission anymore.

    We're not even into day 2 of the new year, and benefits are already showing.
    Fair point - the EU is getting round to this for all member states but havenít yet.

    Ireland has zero VAT on sanitary products but that was set before they entered the EU.

  47. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    That's because tariffs haven't kicked in yet under the signed agreement.
    There will be no tariffs on manufactured goods, assuming UK does not diverge from regulatory alignment with the EU.

    But if we do, they can slap tariffs on us. We have basically been reduced to an offshore territory like Guam is to the USA - no voting rights in American elections.

  48. #528
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    Itís not going well for the fish folk.


  49. #529
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    This is what happens when you erect a trade barrier between yourself and your customer. Remainers tried to warn people but got shouted down with “Project Fear”. Now it’s Project Actually Happening.

    Perhaps individual ports can form cooperatives to reduce the paperwork. Live shellfish export now has to be certified by a vet! The bigger concerns will survive, pivoting to another business model, but the sole traders will lose their livelihoods, and the little fishing ports become ghost towns.

    If Johnson had this deal a while in advance instead of leaving it until Christmas Eve, the fishermen might have had time to prepare, get the admin systems in place. He could have asked for a six month extension and got it, but I expect his survival as PM is contingent on not upsetting the ERG.

  50. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    If Johnson had this deal a while in advance instead of leaving it until Christmas Eve, the fishermen might have had time to prepare, get the admin systems in place. He could have asked for a six month extension and got it, but I expect his survival as PM is contingent on not upsetting the ERG.
    Lets be fair here, if Remainers hadn't spent 4 years trying to thwart Brexit, we could've had a deal a few years ago. Plus don't forget Covid 19.

    His survival is dependent on not upseting the voters who voted for the Tories primarily based on a Brexit mandate.

    ERG is neither here nor there now given the 80 odd seats gained in the recent election.

  51. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Lets be fair here, if Remainers hadn't spent 4 years trying to thwart Brexit, we could've had a deal a few years ago. Plus don't forget Covid 19.

    His survival is dependent on not upseting the voters who voted for the Tories primarily based on a Brexit mandate.

    ERG is neither here nor there now given the 80 odd seats gained in the recent election.
    Johnson could have had this deal
    In the summer, leaving six months for industry to prepare. Or he could have asked for an extension into 2021. He deliberately ran the clock down to try to put pressure on the EU. Now British fishermen are going bust and losing their homes. This is a huge deal where I live, and horrible to watch.

  52. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Johnson could have had this deal
    In the summer, leaving six months for industry to prepare. Or he could have asked for an extension into 2021. He deliberately ran the clock down to try to put pressure on the EU. Now British fishermen are going bust and losing their homes. This is a huge deal where I live, and horrible to watch.
    In the summer the UK/World was dealing with Covid 19 at it's peak which is also why the EU were reluctant to discuss a deal because priorities had changed in 2020.

    Another extension made no sense given 4 years of delays for obvious reasons.

    Fisherman losing their homes? They can still fish based on quotas pre Brexit deal. The reality is Covid 19 and lockdowns has had more effect on businesses thus people losing homes. Nothing to do with the deal.

  53. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    In the summer the UK/World was dealing with Covid 19 at it's peak which is also why the EU were reluctant to discuss a deal because priorities had changed in 2020.

    Another extension made no sense given 4 years of delays for obvious reasons.

    Fisherman losing their homes? They can still fish based on quotas pre Brexit deal. The reality is Covid 19 and lockdowns has had more effect on businesses thus people losing homes. Nothing to do with the deal.
    They can fish, but cannot sell it before it rots, due to new admin procedures which are part of the deal.

  54. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    They can fish, but cannot sell it before it rots, due to new admin procedures which are part of the deal.
    They cannot sell because of businesses in lockdown etc due to C19?

  55. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    They cannot sell because of businesses in lockdown etc due to C19?
    Boats can still fish. Boats can still land catch and truck it to Dover. But now every box of live seafood must be offloaded from the trucks and inspected to get Export Health Certificates, and there aren't enough vets to sign these off. That's one delay. Then the seafood is held up on the EU side for inspection. So it dies before it reaches final destination. When we were EU members it was waved straight through, not checked at all.

  56. #536
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    Name:  FBF75DBA-BC77-4CBD-A729-377D3EE5A960.jpg
Views: 101
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  57. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Boats can still fish. Boats can still land catch and truck it to Dover. But now every box of live seafood must be offloaded from the trucks and inspected to get Export Health Certificates, and there aren't enough vets to sign these off. That's one delay. Then the seafood is held up on the EU side for inspection. So it dies before it reaches final destination. When we were EU members it was waved straight through, not checked at all.
    Your answer seems to be 'delays'.

    The reason for delays with EU inspection is is because fishermen used GB code, instead of UK code on the paperwork.

    Why cant the fishermen sell inland?

  58. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Your answer seems to be 'delays'.

    The reason for delays with EU inspection is is because fishermen used GB code, instead of UK code on the paperwork.

    Why cant the fishermen sell inland?
    Yes, the fishing industry was uniquely dependent on the JIT supply chain for live export to their market. As soon as JIT goes, so does the market.

    The British don't eat much fish, never have. We love our cod and chips, but the big boats out of Norway hoover cod up. Cod won't come into coastal waters. Our little boats catch shellfish, which has to be exported live because Britons don't eat it. The market is Portugese and Spanish. They love their paella.

    This is the problem of listening to the populists, who present nice simple slogan solutions to extremely complex issues. Who wants our 12-mile fishing zone back? Everyone! But the Devil is in the detail - how will we sell the extra fish? Remainers asked that, and populists shouted us down with cries of "Project Fear". Now our fears are reality and the fishermen know they have been sold a pup.

  59. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yes, the fishing industry was uniquely dependent on the JIT supply chain for live export to their market. As soon as JIT goes, so does the market.

    The British don't eat much fish, never have. We love our cod and chips, but the big boats out of Norway hoover cod up. Cod won't come into coastal waters. Our little boats catch shellfish, which has to be exported live because Britons don't eat it. The market is Portugese and Spanish. They love their paella.

    This is the problem of listening to the populists, who present nice simple slogan solutions to extremely complex issues. Who wants our 12-mile fishing zone back? Everyone! But the Devil is in the detail - how will we sell the extra fish? Remainers asked that, and populists shouted us down with cries of "Project Fear". Now our fears are reality and the fishermen know they have been sold a pup.
    The issue isnt complex. It's been blown out of proportion for a sensationalist effect by Remainers.

    You mentioned trade barriers have been erected now. What are these barriers? Minimum quotas are the same, no tarrifs, same customer base.

    Additional paperwork isnt a barrier. It might be a hindrance to begin with, but the industries will get used to it.

    The reality is Covid 19 is doing more harm than Brexit.

  60. #540
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    More and more people are realising they have been had. Here’s a spokesman for South Asian catering on lies told by Johnson and Patel.

    https://barficulture.tv/politics/470

  61. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The issue isnt complex. It's been blown out of proportion for a sensationalist effect by Remainers.

    You mentioned trade barriers have been erected now. What are these barriers? Minimum quotas are the same, no tarrifs, same customer base.

    Additional paperwork isnt a barrier. It might be a hindrance to begin with, but the industries will get used to it.

    The reality is Covid 19 is doing more harm than Brexit.
    I’ve already explained the barrier to selling live export shellfish. Export works under a customs union and single market, but it doesn’t for a third country like the UK.

    If one shoots one’s own foot off, one can “get used to it” with a prosthetic foot and walking stick. But one will still have lost a foot.

    By the time the industry has “got used to it” all those sole trader fishermen will have gone to the wall, and those picturesque fishing villages will die. Maybe they can pick asparagus instead, they are not afraid of physical work and the EU pickers have left.

  62. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Iíve already explained the barrier to selling live export shellfish. Export works under a customs union and single market, but it doesnít for a third country like the UK.

    If one shoots oneís own foot off, one can ďget used to itĒ with a prosthetic foot and walking stick. But one will still have lost a foot.

    By the time the industry has ďgot used to itĒ all those sole trader fishermen will have gone to the wall, and those picturesque fishing villages will die. Maybe they can pick asparagus instead, they are not afraid of physical work and the EU pickers have left.
    Time is not a trade barrier.

  63. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Time is not a trade barrier.
    Sure, for car parts or dried pasta. Time's a trade barrier if you suddenly can't export perishables before they perish and go bust as a result.

    Had Johnson worked this out a year in advance, the industry might have had time to compensate - vets on duty at the fish markets, streamlined admin processes - but he left them one week (which included three bank holidays, so really just four days).

  64. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Sure, for car parts or dried pasta. Time's a trade barrier if you suddenly can't export perishables before they perish and go bust as a result.

    Had Johnson worked this out a year in advance, the industry might have had time to compensate - vets on duty at the fish markets, streamlined admin processes - but he left them one week (which included three bank holidays, so really just four days).
    The industry is not going anywhere while Covid 19 is around, nothing to do with Brexit. Until then the industry has plenty of time to prepare paper work/admin process to avoid delays once Covid 19 subsides.

  65. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    More and more people are realising they have been had. Here’s a spokesman for South Asian catering on lies told by Johnson and Patel.

    https://barficulture.tv/politics/470

    I'm surprised it took them this long to figure it out.

  66. #546
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    On a positive note, Nissan say the current Brexit deal conveys advantages for their new electric car line. Something to do with no tariffs on batteries built in the UK and EU instead of elsewhere in the world.

    Good news for Sunderland, and for Cornwall which has recent lithium strikes in Redruth and St Austell.

  67. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    More and more people are realising they have been had. Here’s a spokesman for South Asian catering on lies told by Johnson and Patel.

    https://barficulture.tv/politics/470
    That piece is dated February 2019 - Britain hadnít even left the EU then.

  68. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    That piece is dated February 2019 - Britain hadnít even left the EU then.
    12 hrs ago :

    BBC News - Brexit: Nissan commits to keep making cars in Sunderland
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930

  69. #549
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    Fifty Newlyn oyster men laid off because the catch cannot be sold.

    DEFRA havenít even created the necessary forms yet.

    https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/new...pFSzSGaZV6o76c

  70. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Fifty Newlyn oyster men laid off because the catch cannot be sold.

    DEFRA havenít even created the necessary forms yet.

    https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/new...pFSzSGaZV6o76c
    Casualties are you inevitable; you can't cook an omlette without breaking an egg.

    Why didn't the company apply for government furlough scheme?

  71. #551
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    Post-Brexit taxes for steel 'very damaging', says Kinnock

    Some steel products could face post-Brexit taxes within months, the sector has warned.

    UK Steel said it was "likely" that export quotas for some products would run out in the first quarter of this year - meaning exports would face a 25% tariff.

    Aberavon MP Stephen Kinnock said the UK government should renegotiate the "very damaging" new quotas with the EU.

    The UK government said it would "engage intensively" with the sector.

    Tata Steel UK employs about 8,000 people in the UK, the majority of which are in Wales with about half based at Port Talbot.

    'Damaging'

    In the year to March 2020 - before the coronavirus pandemic hit demand for steel - Tata Steel UK made a pre-tax loss of £654m and there have been ongoing calls for financial support from the UK Government.

    But Welsh Labour MPs told BBC Politics Wales the latest challenge for the sector could be the changes agreed in the post-Brexit trade deal at the end of last year.

    'Very troubling'
    "Boris Johnson has said that the Brexit deal is no quotas and no tariffs - that is just not true," said Mr Kinnock, whose constituency includes the Port Talbot steelworks.

    "The steel industry is going to be subjected to 25% tariffs on every tonne of steel that we export to the European Union above a certain quota.

    "What's even worse is steel going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will be included in the calculation of that quota, so we really have got a very troubling situation that could have a very damaging impact on our steel industry.

    "We need the government to get back to the negotiating table with the European Union.

    "The big question is, does the European Union have any incentive to get back to the negotiating table now the deal is done. Have we lost all of our leverage?"

    There are now separate quotas for UK steel trading with the EU for 29 different steel products.

    UK Steel, which represents manufacturers, said some of those quotas were likely to run out in the first quarter of this year.

    'Huge problems'
    "The official expiry date of the EU safeguard measure [quotas] is June 2021, but it is looking increasingly likely that they will be extended beyond this period - perhaps for another three years," a spokeswoman said.

    "If the UK can't get an exemption, or its quotas expanded, it will cause huge problems for the UK steel sector."

    She said Brexit was also impacting how much steel the UK can expect to export due to customs delays, a shortage of hauliers and concern from EU customers.

    Is state aid the answer?
    Mr Kinnock has urged the UK government to provide support to the industry.

    Steel analyst Kathryn Ringwald Wildman said more state aid could have been given, even while a member of the EU, while the steel industry is among many sectors asking for help following the coronavirus pandemic.

    "One is inclined to think that because [the UK government] expressed such concern over the ability to use state aid that they intend to use state aid," she said.

    "However, in the past they haven't used it to the maximum, even within European regulations.

    "Within European regulations, some countries were able to give their steel industries much more support with relation to energy costs than the UK government chose to do."

    She said the UK government would be weighing up whether steel remains a "strategic industry".

    "Many would say yes - we have a strong manufacturing sector [so] you need a thriving steel industry [however] now we have competing voices for support.

    "Industries like hospitality, leisure and tourism, retail, have all been devastated by the pandemic and seeking help to recover. The government has to decide what are their priorities, where is the economy going to be best served in the long-term."

    Prof Kent Matthews, economist at Cardiff University, said any steel subsidy would need a time limit.

    "The main challenges are in terms of value for money," he said.

    "The Treasury's argument will be they don't want to keep throwing money at something that's not going to produce a return at all.

    "The long-term effect for steel coming out of Brexit, if nothing changes, is that it will be absolutely destroyed by world markets. So the arguments for subsidising are ones of giving it breathing space to be able to up their game, invest in the right technologies and move up the value chain.

    "There are arguments for permanent subsidies for certain industries but steel is not one of them because it's a tradable good, it's something that can be got from outside."

    The UK government said it was in continuing discussions about increasing quotas for exports into the EU single market.

    A UK government spokesman said: "We have worked successfully with the European Commission to secure tariff rate quotas for some steel products to enable UK companies to trade tariff-free into the EU.

    "These tariff-free allocations came into operation on 1 January 2021.

    "The government will continue to engage intensively with the sector to understand their concerns and requirements."
    Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-55845067.



  72. #552
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    The U.K. will apply to join a trans-Pacific trade bloc....

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN29Z0W1

    Wrong side of the planet for manufactured goods but might work well for British invisible exports such as financial products. These economies are expanding faster than the EU27.

    I am dubious. I think the “sovereign individuals” will get richer from this, while ordinary Britons face loss of employment protections and gradually shrinking public services. A Singapore of the northern hemisphere.

  73. #553
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    Well the EU have shown their true colours with the eu vaccine fiasco and invoking article 16, then making a U-turn.

  74. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The U.K. will apply to join a trans-Pacific trade bloc....

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN29Z0W1

    Wrong side of the planet for manufactured goods but might work well for British invisible exports such as financial products. These economies are expanding faster than the EU27.

    I am dubious. I think the “sovereign individuals” will get richer from this, while ordinary Britons face loss of employment protections and gradually shrinking public services. A Singapore of the northern hemisphere.
    It's a good move, and I think its the perfect side of the planet. Eastern economies are growing at a faster rate than Western economies. I think this move will encourage the rebirth of manufacturing in the UK too.

  75. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Well the EU have shown their true colours with the eu vaccine fiasco and invoking article 16, then making a U-turn.
    It was a blunder by the Commission and von der Leyen. But we cannot expect otherwise as a Third Country.

    I would be pretty cross if I were Taoiseach though, eh @Donal Cozzie ?

  76. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    It was a blunder by the Commission and von der Leyen. But we cannot expect otherwise as a Third Country.

    I would be pretty cross if I were Taoiseach though, eh @Donal Cozzie ?
    I don't agree UK is 3rd world county.

    Britainís success in vaccinating more than eight million people ó a greater number than Germany and the next biggest four EU members put together ó has prompted many Europeans, however, to look enviously across the Channel.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-great-brussels-vaccine-bungle-jk7hfbt93

  77. #557
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    3rd country


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