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  1. #1
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    Why did Saqlain Mushtaq retire so early?

    Last game he played was in 2003-2004, and at that time he was 27-28 years old.

    Who replace his spot?
    Afridi or Kaneria

  2. #2
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    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.

  3. #3
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    Also, some one throw info on Wajahat ullah Wasti who played one world cup (99 World Cup I guess).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    are you serious

  5. #5
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    I thought the story was that after a shoulder injury he was never the same bowler again? You give him seriously little credit if you think that those 3 reasons alone were the reason for him being left out.


    Have the players going forward, just need coaching&professionalism! #1 priority: fielding

  6. #6
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    Brilliant bowler, shame for whatever reason his career was cut short. On a side note does anyone remember a programme on channel 4 in the 90's called big breakfast i think. The presenter johnny vaughan used to love pakistan during the 99 world cup and randomly would shout "bowling saqqii" in moin khans voice every so often, would love to see some footage of that again if any one has it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulfiqar View Post
    I thought the story was that after a shoulder injury he was never the same bowler again? You give him seriously little credit if you think that those 3 reasons alone were the reason for him being left out.
    Agreed & I think the emergence of Shoaib Malik played a part too

  8. #8
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    A destructive opening batsmen ended up his career.

    Quite clearly, Kumble and Harbhajan both were better test bowlers than Saqlain.

    A Saqlain who walked into a Pakistan team of Wasim, Waqar and Akhtar certainly would walk into Pakistan team post 2004 which had Shoaib Akhtar, Mohammad Sami and Rana Naved I think. But it seems the hysteria of the opener got the better of him.
    Last edited by The Viper; 1st April 2020 at 16:48.

  9. #9
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    because he got found out and quit. You know.what it is.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyron_woodley View Post
    because he got found out and quit. You know.what it is.
    A bit late to be "found out" after almost 500 international wickets.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    Hmm. Saqlain averages ~27 in Test matches that Wasim played versus ~32 in Test matches that Wasim didn't play.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyron_woodley View Post
    because he got found out and quit. You know.what it is.
    hope your not insinuating he was chucking?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Hmm. Saqlain averages ~27 in Test matches that Wasim played versus ~32 in Test matches that Wasim didn't play.
    That’s my point really.

    Saqlain got a longer Test career than he deserved on the basis of his white ball ability. But Mushtaq Ahmed was actually a more dangerous red ball bowler.

    Pakistan really messed up their Test selections in that era: they made a similar mistake with choosing Razzaq ahead of Azhar Mahmood.

    In retrospect, from 1999-2005 they should have picked Razzaq at 6, Azhar at 7 and Mushtaq Ahmed at 9, with Saqlain only playing as a second spinner in Asia.

  14. #14
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    Saqlain was fading from 2000 onwards. Batsmen started to find it a lot easier to pick his doosra and he was unable to find a way to properly disguise it

    They knew he could not bowl the doosra above 51-52 mph and that he would float it and bowl it through the back of the hand. He also very dumbly showed it off to his friends in county cricket giving them an opportunity to plan and counter it.

    England which was renowned to be a weak side against spin found it very easy to deal with him in Pakistan in 2000 and they won 1-0 for the first time in Pakistan.

    Saqlain with his ineffectiveness cost us really badly with the 1999 Sri Lankan tour, 2000 West Indies tour, 2000 England series, 2001 NZ tour, 2002 South African tour.

    The PCB rightfully moved him on after the 2003 wc and stopped buying into his mythical reputation. Murliatharan atleast kept working on his craft and trying to hide and disguise his tricks, developing alternative tactics with his bowling angles, field placings to keep up with the batsmens plans against him but sadly Saqlain could not keep up

  15. #15
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    Because Danish Kaneria arrived and he was better.

  16. #16
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    The 3 cricketers that changed cricket forever

    Saqlain = doosra

    Sarfraz Nawaz = reverse swing

    MJ Slater = from r/r of 2.5 he started a trend of 3.5 r/r in test cricket.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Brilliant bowler, shame for whatever reason his career was cut short. On a side note does anyone remember a programme on channel 4 in the 90's called big breakfast i think. The presenter johnny vaughan used to love pakistan during the 99 world cup and randomly would shout "bowling saqqii" in moin khans voice every so often, would love to see some footage of that again if any one has it.
    I remember the "bowling saqqi "in big breakfast,

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    A bit late to be "found out" after almost 500 international wickets.
    49 tests. since when do we combine both odi and tests together? 49 is not good enough numbers for those days. No t20 or franchise cricket that increases workload.

    He was getting figured out and quit. He was too slow and technology was just getting far too advanced. His pitch delivers were starting to get a lot easier to read and hence he decided to quit.

  19. #19
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    A lot of players lose performance later in their career due to injuries and lack of support from their board with recovery, so Saqi suffered the same fate, and also he also rihhtfully got more dedicated in religion,just like Saeed Anwar, who also could have achieved a lot more.

  20. #20
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    He over played the Doosra, batsman twigged him, he was no longer effective.

  21. #21
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    Kaneria was well on his way to replacing Saqlain, in fact Kaneria was already the preferred spinner at that point. And Saqlain's body was riddled with injuries, he officially retired in 2004 but he barely player the last couple of year, was always out with injuries.

    Also, by the early 2000's both fans and administrators wanted to rebuild the team, get rid of old vets like Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Saeed, Ijaz, Moin, Rashid, etc..

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by coy0607 View Post
    Kaneria was well on his way to replacing Saqlain, in fact Kaneria was already the preferred spinner at that point. And Saqlain's body was riddled with injuries, he officially retired in 2004 but he barely player the last couple of year, was always out with injuries.

    Also, by the early 2000's both fans and administrators wanted to rebuild the team, get rid of old vets like Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Saeed, Ijaz, Moin, Rashid, etc..
    He was 27 at that time. Wasim, Waqar, Anwar all were in 30s.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    He was 27 at that time. Wasim, Waqar, Anwar all were in 30s.
    yeah, but he'd been playing for a long time and I remember him always being associated with the older players.

    Team performance deteriorated quickly after the 1999 WC - people just wanted a reset at that point with newer emerging players Younis, Yousuf, Kaneria, Sami, Kamran, Malik, etc.

    That said, if Saqlain wasn't injured as often as he was, I'm sure he would have been selected for a few more years like Waqar was

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    Good point @no.2

    Wasim was one hell of a smooth criminal.

  25. #25
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    Saqline Mushtaq's Test stats

    Overall: (T - W - Avg. - SR - E - 5/10)
    49 - 208 - 29.83 - 67.6 - 2.64 - 13/3

    With Akram, creating foot-marks for him
    26 - 111 - 27.45 - 66.9 - 2.46 - 9/2

    Without Akram, creating foot-marks for him
    23 - 97 - 32.56 - 68.5 - 2.56 - 4/1

    Now, Akram retired (or played last Test) was probably sometimes January 2002; by the time Saqlaine already was a spent force. It happens to be that Saq's prime times (1996-2000), happen to be with/under Akram and I tend to believe that, more than the foot-marks by Wasim, what worked for him was his own bowling skills, the aggressive captaincy and the pace attack after which he used to come to bowl - it's a bit easier to bowl for a spinner coming at 50/2 ... than in front of, say a rampant Sehwag at Multan.

    Therefore, I have to disagree with @Junaids here - quality spinners operate with their own skills, not for foot-marks only which is the English way of thinking for spinners. Of course, it'll be helpful if there are foot-marks, but that doesn't make a prime Saqlaine Mushtaq - it can work for Moeen Ali though. Otherwise, we'll have to agree that without 3 right arm pacers creating foot-mark, Shane Warne would have been Shadab Khan ..... well, not literally, but...., you know. Using Wasim Akram factor hardly works here, because Saqlaine's stats got severe dent in his last 3-4 years, including the manhandling from Indians - and that was because he was GONE by then, with figures like 3/237 (SAF), 1/204 (IND), with or without foot-mark, he was ordinary - with Akram or any lefti creating foot-marks, I don't think his stats would have improved much.

    Now, coming to the reason - why he faded away that much so young. Apart from the Wasim Akram factor, I completely agree with other two points - he was not 5, but probably 7 years old at birth!! I have seen him in his "mid 30s" from hand-shaking distance ...... Lord, if that guy was 35, I wonder how could I walk that time without my walker!!!!!!

    And, the second one is also valid - Doosra, Tisra, Choutha, Googly, Wrong'on, Carom ball, Knuckle ball, Cutter ball, Flipper, Top spinners ....... these are all effective as a surprise element. Cricket's fundamental skills are still applicable after 150 years - spinners (any type) must tie batsman with a perfectly bowled stock ball that he can bowl 4-5 times effortlessly in every over, block batsmen's scoring opportunities then use his intelligence to figure out when the batsman has reached to breaking point - unleash a surprise ball on spot. I have lost counts on how many times Warne or Herath have pegged batsmen down with big conventional turners on length ... then when desperate batsman trying to break-free, one death-nail in the form of a flipper or an armer, bang on target. That's exactly what Saq did to Indians in 1998 - he even tamed one Sachin Tendulkar, who was out to his floating Doosra 3 times in that series, after being completely blocked in scoring. This is something cost Ajmal as well, when he started to make Doosra his stock ball.

    There are two more reasons for the sharp decline of Saq - one was his dodgy knee. A bowler can work without one arm or eye, but with a pain-full front knee, forget it. In later years, the punch of Saq's bowling was gone - he started to float it from shoulders and fingers without much foot-hold.

    BUT, to me the real reason was technical. Even had he been biologically 35 (at that fateful Multan Test) with a dodgy knee, for a spinner, it was possible to make a come back - plenty of spinners have carried till 40 and fixing an spinner's knee is no where near to fix Shoaib's knee, and still that guy Akhtar out-lasted Saq by almost a decade. Saqlaine LOST it when he joined English Counties - I have seen many of Surrey's game in live telecast when he was playing (and few times live on ground when PAK's current bowling Coach was at his menacing best) - he started to push the ball through air, because English wickets and Surrey Captains will use him as a stock bowler to stop scoring. His average speed increased, his loop gone, his flight became flatter & flatter .... but most importantly, he lost his big tuning spin.

    I credit every bit to English County for managing PAK cricket in their glory days, but this one I am happy that Qadir & Qasim didn't play there. It actually had the same Saqlaine impact on two Indian spinners with great potential - Dulip Doshi & Ravi Shastri; for his own good Kumble left Northants after one season (and he was damn successful there), which availed him 15 more years in International circuits. Mushi ran riot for Sussex for half a decade - that was when he was a complete package already and Sussex used him as a wicket taking leggi; unfortunately, Saq was the Kumar Dharmasena for Surrey..... never could make a come back from there. Spinners are cherished through 35-40 overs spells with 3 catching men waiting, three saving singles and 3 patrolling boundary for a miscued loft .... and spinners are ruined when they are asked to quickly go through 10-12 overs with 6 men blocking singles for a better over-rate and damage control before 2nd new ball .......

  26. #26
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    His knees and his overreliance on the doosra.

  27. #27
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    I saw him playing club cricket in UK after he had retired, it was sad to see as he could barely walk.



  28. #28
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    I think Saqlain saw the writing on the wall , as did Shoaib Malik who was pretending to be Saqlain until then and decided to focus on his batting, that in the year 2003 a much more skilful and talented off break bowler came into the Pakistan team. A future legend who never mind his bowling, he was an even greater batsman, going to on reach many heights over the next 15 years in his illustrious career , including supposedly ranking as the worldís no.1 all rounder in some format of the game.

  29. #29
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    Injuries was the reason, and not what some posters here claiming he was a cheat along with Wasim Akram.

    Post 2002 he wasn't Pakistan's top spinner. Shoulder injury ensured he doesn't play as much. He barely got chances in 2003 world cup either eventhough he was in the squad.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    I think you are forgetting the most important point here. Saqi had severe issues with his knee which meant he could not sprint the way he used to.

    He had to slow down his action and lost the zip.

  31. #31
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    Saqlain actually was asked to get his knee operated from 2000 but he chose to ignore that advice and carry on playing with pain killers because he was fearful of losing his place in the side. End result his career suffered in the long run.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by coy0607 View Post
    Kaneria was well on his way to replacing Saqlain, in fact Kaneria was already the preferred spinner at that point. And Saqlain's body was riddled with injuries, he officially retired in 2004 but he barely player the last couple of year, was always out with injuries.

    Also, by the early 2000's both fans and administrators wanted to rebuild the team, get rid of old vets like Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Saeed, Ijaz, Moin, Rashid, etc..
    how to you hurt yourself being a spinner lol. Atleast phaassst bowlers I can understand. Being riddled with injuries for a spinner is pathetic unless he has some medical condition that affects his abilities.
    Last edited by tyron_woodley; 2nd April 2020 at 04:34.

  33. #33
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    Overbowling. I saw his spinner finger after a match at Edgebaston playing for Surrey and it looked like a dog had chewed it. He then lost confidence and try to bowl too quick, which meant he didnt spin the ball.

  34. #34
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    I think there was an issue with his doosra.

    Just like when the googly and flipper were invented, there was an initial period of five years in which it was such a novelty that batsmen did not know how to recognise or play the doosra.

    But Iím not convinced that Saqlainís doosra was illegal. The clearly illegal ones - such as Saeed Ajmalís - could be bowled with the same action and pace as an off-break.

    But Saqlainís doosra was slow and floaty. By the late 1990ís it was only really effective on a worn pitch or in white ball cricket in which the batsman was slogging.

    Saqlain was a revolutionary bowler, but his was an early, unrefined doosra. Murali and Ajmal had more dangerous doosras but because they bowled with bent arms.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I think there was an issue with his doosra.

    Just like when the googly and flipper were invented, there was an initial period of five years in which it was such a novelty that batsmen did not know how to recognise or play the doosra.

    But Iím not convinced that Saqlainís doosra was illegal. The clearly illegal ones - such as Saeed Ajmalís - could be bowled with the same action and pace as an off-break.

    But Saqlainís doosra was slow and floaty. By the late 1990ís it was only really effective on a worn pitch or in white ball cricket in which the batsman was slogging.

    Saqlain was a revolutionary bowler, but his was an early, unrefined doosra. Murali and Ajmal had more dangerous doosras but because they bowled with bent arms.
    Saqlians doosra was easier to pick. Tbh the Australians in the 1999 tour as the series went on showed the entire world that it was easy to pick and read him. From that tour onwards Saqlain was a liability

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Saqlians doosra was easier to pick. Tbh the Australians in the 1999 tour as the series went on showed the entire world that it was easy to pick and read him. From that tour onwards Saqlain was a liability
    Thatís exactly right.

    Mushtaq Ahmed played the Brisbane Test on a dodgy knee and was ineffective.

    Saqlain replaced him at Hobart and in the First Innings was incisive, but the Aussies worked out his doosra by the end of the innings (which was also Waqar Younisí final Test class performance).

    Then Gilchrist and Langer had that huge partnership in the Fourth Innings - a pair of lefties whom a decent off-spinner should have had for breakfast on the fourth innings.

    From that point on, Saqlain was never feared or even respected again as a Test bowler. Which led to the Sehwag blitzes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    That’s exactly right.

    Mushtaq Ahmed played the Brisbane Test on a dodgy knee and was ineffective.

    Saqlain replaced him at Hobart and in the First Innings was incisive, but the Aussies worked out his doosra by the end of the innings (which was also Waqar Younis’ final Test class performance).

    Then Gilchrist and Langer had that huge partnership in the Fourth Innings - a pair of lefties whom a decent off-spinner should have had for breakfast on the fourth innings.

    From that point on, Saqlain was never feared or even respected again as a Test bowler. Which led to the Sehwag blitzes.
    I have to disagree here as well Junaids, I am afraid.

    Of all the Doosra bowlers I have seen, Saq was by far THE best, including Murali and he had an action, which could pass 15 degree while bowling Doosra, because instead of elbow, his Doosra was generated by fingers and wrists.

    For two reasons, I think Saq had the best Doosra, and a clean one. First one was his action - it's natural and absolutely unidentifiable from action which way the ball was going. Saq could float the Doosra above eye line and still drop it perfectly on spot because he didn't use his elbow in the process - first time here I am reading that a fast dart from a finger spinner is tougher to negotiate than a floating, swerving spinner that turns big after pitching!!!! These days, batsmen look vulnerable against Doosra or darting of Ashwin, Shakib or Jadeja ... even Imad, Moeen, Santner, because they are clueless against spin - some great careers in modern era would have ended prematurely in 1990s against that spin generation. Saqlaine was the only Doosra blower, who could bowl proper away spin with flight and loop - each and every other bowler trying Doosra bowled much faster, because they had to use elbow for it.

    The second skill that made Saqlaine's Doosra almost unplayable was that from that loop and flight, despite bowling slow, he could extract exceptional bounce, which I haven't seen from any one. Saq actually got more wickets for his bounce rather than away turn on his Doosra. Modern Doosra bowlers use elbow, hence they can't extract bounce (pushes the ball in air, it slants on to batsman, does't drop from height), hence they are hardly effective outside T20, or may be ODI. Take this AFG guy Mujeeb - he does pretty fancy things with a leg-spin grip (uses his wrists), bowled through an off-spinners action, which made him extremely effective in T20s/ODIs where batsmen are forced to go after, but that guy isn't making even AFG Test team for a reason.

    Taking finger-spin away from batsman (of same hand that bowler is bowling) is no big deal. For over a century off-spinners have bowled round the wicket to left-handers and caught them in front with the straighter one or something that came inwards with angle - our Miraz took 19 wickets in his first 2 Tests against ENG with 5-6 left-handers in it and most of his scalps were Bowled or LBW, - bowling from round the wicket and slanting a straight one into left-handers from round the wicket. While, SLAO spinner's armer is probably the oldest weapon for a spinner - used by Peate, Peel, Briggs, even in 1880s, that's is also a ball that comes against conventional turn. BUT, THAT IS NOT DOOSRA. What Saqlaine invented was a magic - you could hardly identify any change in action, but the ball pitches at same spot, pops up, and moves away, just enough to miss the middle of bat. Indians are best when it comes to identify spin from action and in air - no leg-spinner in last 50 years had any success against Indian batsmen because they could differentiate the variation from action and in flight, hence their foot-work was assured, shot selection was perfect, while every English batsmen tried to negotiate leg-spin after pitching, hence limited to almost only one shot - sweep.

    The best of the Indian bunch against spin were at their prime in that 1998 series - Sadagopan Ramesh, VVS, Dravid, SRT, Azhar, Ganguly, Mongia - I can bet each one was a better spin player than what England fielded between Gooch and Peaterson ...... that line-up was hopelessly at sea against Saqline - he was that good. But, he over did it and lost novelty, then got injured and lost his overall skills with ball. I also have seen that Hobert Test - no, Aussies didn't invent any thing (if so, Bhajji won't have robbed them for next 7-8 years like that). Saq did get Waugh with a floater, was bowling beautifully, but two lefti that day played unreal, on a very good wicket that compacted with time - still, both were extremely lucky to survive many close calls of Saq and in an innings where the RR was 3.3, he bowled 45 overs for 2.9 economy, in Australia when Gilchrist had 149 of those runs - you have no idea how good Saq bowled in that innings, but Cricket (And Aussie umpires) wanted Australia to win that Test.

    It was his fitness (lack of it), his over use of Doosra and his failure to maintain that perfect stock ball - these three factors cost him his career. If he was an Indian, Saqline also could have ended with close to 6-800 Test wickets as well, because Indians do know how to manage spinners and how to prolong their career.

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    Pak is the worst asian side in terms of creating long term test spinners the one's who can take at least 400 test wickets
    That's just a fact

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    Pak is the worst asian side in terms of creating long term test spinners the one's who can take at least 400 test wickets
    That's just a fact
    I would put ban ahead of us in this regard too

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    Some very good points. I'm not sure Saqlain was 7 years older than stated age. He may have been a year or two older but not much I think. That Hobart test was the beginning of a slow decline for Saqlain . If you watch that spell, he really pushes the ball through whereas at his peak(1995-99) he used to have very good loop and kept flighting the ball even at the death in ODIs.

    While his off break kept getting quicker, his doosra was always at a slower pace and batsmen eventually started picking the difference. Early in his career , his offbreak was slower and around the same pace as the doosra and ,hence, they were indistinguishable. How much his injuries, flat wickets in the noughties, change in captaincy etc. affected his trajectory - I'm not sure about that but there was a distinct change in his bowling style from the 99/00 season onwards.


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    His action was unique and brilliant but took its toll on his body I reckon. Lots of shoulder (rather than elbow) went into that doosra

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    Think the main issue was his knee injuries:

    Saqlain Mushtaq to undergo knee surgery

    Saqlain Mustaq, the Pakistani offspinner, is all set to undergo a second knee surgery, and will be out of cricket for several months as a result. Doctors have advised him to undergo surgery at the earliest to treat this career-threatening injury.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23141185/

    Saqi discussed his injury further with Saj here:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...-Ligament-quot

    Always was a big fun of Saqi and Mushy and was a shame to see Saqi's career cut short.

    Think it's mighty unfair for some arm-chair critics to come out with statements like "he was found out" or "he was over reliant on his doosra/other bowlers" for someone who has taken almost 500 wickets.

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    On Saqlain, remarkable to think that the likes of Saqlain Mushtaq and Shoaib Akhtar only ever made a solitary Test appearance in England. Yet you see some put them in an all time Pakistan Test XI.

    England is the home of Test Cricket and the biggest Test tour for a Pakistan player to go on. It is the major Test country to play in.

    But Pakistan only played 2 Tests in England between 1997-2005.

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    I think he overdid the County cricket circuit.

    He should have stopped playing County cricket after he started having injury issues, but he continued playing which was a mistake.



  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    No it was due to knee injuries, he went to see a palwan who jumped on his knees literally ending his career

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    1) Age he was certainly 2-3yrs older than his stated age

    2) Dodgy knees

    3) He overdid county cricket and his doosra which led to players picking him better and point 2 injuries

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    When you look back at his career, you feel that this was an amazing talent that overbowled, which led to injuries and a loss of confidence.

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    saqlain retired very early because he was hit badly with the injuries where he could barely get a place in the 11...

    When he was not interested in playing intl cricket and played only county cricket here and there to make money, Stupid Inzi insisted to play him in the Multan test where he was not even fit to play an ODI.. This test made Sehwag score 309 and hammered him so badly that he ended up with 1-204 for his 40 overs...This test worsen his knee injury and after the knee surgery he retired...

    Thats the writing on the wall playing an unfit player in a test match is as equal to losing match before the toss..

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I think he overdid the County cricket circuit.

    He should have stopped playing County cricket after he started having injury issues, but he continued playing which was a mistake.
    As I said earlier, I spoke to him after a match at Edgebaston in either 2002 or 3 and he had bowled 50 overs in the match. He showed his spinning finger and it looked horrific, within a year, his international career was over. And to this day his doosra still remains as the only legit doosra, all the others were chucked.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ask_analyse_act View Post
    saqlain retired very early because he was hit badly with the injuries where he could barely get a place in the 11...

    When he was not interested in playing intl cricket and played only county cricket here and there to make money, Stupid Inzi insisted to play him in the Multan test where he was not even fit to play an ODI.. This test made Sehwag score 309 and hammered him so badly that he ended up with 1-204 for his 40 overs...This test worsen his knee injury and after the knee surgery he retired...

    Thats the writing on the wall playing an unfit player in a test match is as equal to losing match before the toss..
    Sehwag was dropped by Sami in that innings and that didn't help.

  51. #51
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    He and saeed both retired too early
    He also coached other spinners little too much and spread the secrets of his doosra to other parts of the world

    The best spinner since abdul qadir but his career ended on the County circuit and I think he became a uk citizen


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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    He and saeed both retired too early
    He also coached other spinners little too much and spread the secrets of his doosra to other parts of the world

    The best spinner since abdul qadir but his career ended on the County circuit and I think he became a uk citizen
    They didnt retire too early if anything they were both were well past their best in performance and fitness Age has nothing to do with retiring early or late

    Both anwar and saqlain were unfit and not at the level needed in early 2000s to do justice in terms of performance at the highest level

  53. #53
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    Saqlain was a massive liability from 2000 onwards. The PCB gave him all the leeway and played, selected him from 2000 to 2003 based on past laurels and he just did not deliver anymore. His doosra was so easy to pick even for Courtney Walsh, Makhaya Ntini. He was also responsible for our missed opportunity for not winning the 2000 series against the West Indies. England who had never ever won a series in the subcontinent, won against Pakistan in Pakistan for the first time in 2000 and Saqlain's lack of effectiveness in his own conditions played a major part, I was shocked to see how notoriously poor players of spin were easily able to pick his doosra.

    New Zealand then demolished Saqlain in 2001 and Craig McMillan literally hit him for sixes at will in that series. Saqlain used to be Pakistan's premier strike bowler from 1996 to 1999 but now was relegated to a support bowler at best who on a lucky day might chip in with a wicket or two especially of a tail ender from 2000 onwards.

    South African's completely demolished him in 2003 where he was hit for sixes at will and conceded 200 runs in the innings. He was no longer an automatic pick and was he even dropped for a few games in the 2003 ODI WC. I mean how many chances do you give a guy who had been living of past laurels for 3 long years.

    He just was never able to reinvent himself as a bowler or continuously able to develop new tricks like Murlitharan which is why he could only achieve 208 test wickets while the later managed to get up to 800 test wickets

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    I think Saqlain wasn't a disciplined individual despite being immensely talented. It is why he couldn't have a long career.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    1) Age he was certainly 2-3yrs older than his stated age

    2) Dodgy knees

    3) He overdid county cricket and his doosra which led to players picking him better and point 2 injuries
    Spot on.

    Age is an important factor, he is obviously a few years older than listed.



  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Spot on.

    Age is an important factor, he is obviously a few years older than listed.
    Age is not a factor for a spinner. It doesn't matter even if he was younger. If you live of past laurels, don't work hard on your game and don't develop new tricks, don't learn to disguise your existing tricks, don't strategize and plan on how to get around batsmen developing counter plans against you, you will struggle to survive for long regardless of whether you are 20 years old, 30 years old or 36 plus. This game is all about adapting, making adjustments, developing your skill sets and strategies if you want to have a long and effective career.

    Murali is a classic example, he relied heavily on his huge turning off spinner from 1995 to 1998. Kallis showed the entire world how to counter him in the 1998 CT by continuously slog sweeping him. Murali adapted by adding a doosra (which he made sure was well disguised and not easy to read/pick unlike Saqlain) from 1999 onwards and he became a bigger force in world cricket. As he got older and had more wear and tear on his body and shoulders his ability to generate massive spin on the ball started to diminish and the English batsmen in the 2002 series in England showed the entire world how to counter Murali by sweeping him but making sure that their front pads were always outside the line off the off stump therefore taking the LBW out of the equation, this tactic didn't stop Murali from picking 5-6 wickets per innings but the biggest difference is that instead of picking 5-6 wickets for 60-70 runs in 30 overs, he was now having to bowl 50-60 overs for his 5-6 wickets for 130-140 runs and that makes a huge difference. Even the Australians the invincible side of the time commented that they took huge inspiration from England's tactics against Murali and would apply it.

    But this didn't stop Murali, he learnt to be more inventive with his field placings and started to go around the wicket to the right hander and spinning the ball into the right hander to make up for his loss of massive spin, revolutions on the ball so that batsmen employing the sweep against him would still get hit in front of the wickets or would be caught bat pad and he employed this tactic and approach from 2002 to the end of his career.

    This is what world class bowlers do, they adapt to the opposition and the tactics employed against them. This is why Murali is a legend and Saqlain is regarded as someone who got exposed and useless when batsmen got used to him because he failed to adapt. To be fair to Saqlain, he is not the only one, Ajanta Mendis is another example.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Age is not a factor for a spinner. It doesn't matter even if he was younger. If you live of past laurels, don't work hard on your game and don't develop new tricks, don't learn to disguise your existing tricks, don't strategize and plan on how to get around batsmen developing counter plans against you, you will struggle to survive for long regardless of whether you are 20 years old, 30 years old or 36 plus. This game is all about adapting, making adjustments, developing your skill sets and strategies if you want to have a long and effective career.

    Murali is a classic example, he relied heavily on his huge turning off spinner from 1995 to 1998. Kallis showed the entire world how to counter him in the 1998 CT by continuously slog sweeping him. Murali adapted by adding a doosra (which he made sure was well disguised and not easy to read/pick unlike Saqlain) from 1999 onwards and he became a bigger force in world cricket. As he got older and had more wear and tear on his body and shoulders his ability to generate massive spin on the ball started to diminish and the English batsmen in the 2002 series in England showed the entire world how to counter Murali by sweeping him but making sure that their front pads were always outside the line off the off stump therefore taking the LBW out of the equation, this tactic didn't stop Murali from picking 5-6 wickets per innings but the biggest difference is that instead of picking 5-6 wickets for 60-70 runs in 30 overs, he was now having to bowl 50-60 overs for his 5-6 wickets for 130-140 runs and that makes a huge difference. Even the Australians the invincible side of the time commented that they took huge inspiration from England's tactics against Murali and would apply it.

    But this didn't stop Murali, he learnt to be more inventive with his field placings and started to go around the wicket to the right hander and spinning the ball into the right hander to make up for his loss of massive spin, revolutions on the ball so that batsmen employing the sweep against him would still get hit in front of the wickets or would be caught bat pad and he employed this tactic and approach from 2002 to the end of his career.

    This is what world class bowlers do, they adapt to the opposition and the tactics employed against them. This is why Murali is a legend and Saqlain is regarded as someone who got exposed and useless when batsmen got used to him because he failed to adapt. To be fair to Saqlain, he is not the only one, Ajanta Mendis is another example.
    This is not a knock on Saqlain, this is the problem with the vast majority of our cricketers and why they struggle for long after 1-2 years of initial success.

  58. #58
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    Saqlain Mushtaq... not sure what this is!


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    Saqi lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    They didnt retire too early if anything they were both were well past their best in performance and fitness Age has nothing to do with retiring early or late

    Both anwar and saqlain were unfit and not at the level needed in early 2000s to do justice in terms of performance at the highest level
    He was still better than arshad khan even without both his knees
    Both players had an awful lot more to contribute and even if their body couldn't cope anymore they still should have a respectful end to their careers amongst acrimonious times


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    A destructive opening batsmen ended up his career.

    Quite clearly, Kumble and Harbhajan both were better test bowlers than Saqlain.

    A Saqlain who walked into a Pakistan team of Wasim, Waqar and Akhtar certainly would walk into Pakistan team post 2004 which had Shoaib Akhtar, Mohammad Sami and Rana Naved I think. But it seems the hysteria of the opener got the better of him.
    Saqlains career was already done when he played that test match against India

    Infact there was no cricketing reason for his recall for that match . It was a nice out of desperation.

  62. #62
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    I will word this very carefully.

    What happened to Saqlain and Mohammad Akram after midnight in a ďclubĒ 28 hours before a Test match in Johannesburg in February 1998 tells a very clear story about his professionalism and dedication.

    I donít care about the moral dimension, except to say that blaming ďblack men in a blue carĒ was incredibly embarrassing less than four years after the end of Apartheid, and given that photos of them at the club after midnight emerged within hours of the lies about the car, and then the bouncer who threw the players out of the club when they refused to pay their bills sold his story to the press!

    But why would a Test cricketer be in a club at 3 am the day before a Test match? Itís a simple matter of professionalism.....or a lack of it.
    Last edited by Junaids; 9th April 2020 at 09:09.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I will word this very carefully.

    What happened to Saqlain and Mohammad Akram after midnight in a “club” 28 hours before a Test match in Johannesburg in February 1998 tells a very clear story about his professionalism and dedication.

    I don’t care about the moral dimension, except to say that blaming “black men in a blue car” was incredibly embarrassing less than four years after the end of Apartheid, and given that photos of them at the club after midnight emerged within hours of the lies about the car, and then the bouncer who threw the players out of the club when they refused to pay their bills sold his story to the press!

    But why would a Test cricketer be in a club at 3 am the day before a Test match? It’s a simple matter of professionalism.....or a lack of it.
    This was something frequent with most players of the 90's.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    1) Age he was certainly 2-3yrs older than his stated age

    2) Dodgy knees

    3) He overdid county cricket and his doosra which led to players picking him better and point 2 injuries
    Pretty much somes it up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post


    Saqlain Mushtaq... not sure what this is!
    This is really really nice. Saqi enjoying the quarantine time.

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    No one could pick his doosra: Harbhajan on Pakistan off-spinner

    India cricket fans will always remember some cricketers from the Pakistani team, who were a constant thorn in Team India’s flesh. One of them was the off-spinner par excellence Saqlain Mushtaq. Saqlain was the bowler who dismissed Sachin Tendulkar in the Chennai Test match of 1998, which eventually led to a heartbreaking loss to the arch-rivals for India.

    Saqlain had an impeccable record in ODIs as well, averaging more than 2 wickets per match for the majority of his career. He also took a hat-trick in Pakistan’s 1999 ICC World Cup campaign, which ended in a defeat in the final to Australia.

    Talking about great off-spinners Harbhajan put Sri Lankan legend Muttiah Muralitharan at the top of the list. He also named the likes of Aussie Nathan Lyon and England’s Graeme Swann. Rohit Sharma asked Harbhajan to give his opinion on Pakistan’s Saqlain Mushtaq and Bhajji was all praise for the man who invented the ‘doosra’.

    “Saqi bhai was class, he was a class bowler, a great bowler. No one could pick the doosra he bowled and he was a true match-winner. He would often bowl between the 45th and 50th over and invariably pick a couple of wickets and win the match for his team,” Harbhajan said while lavishing praise on Saqlain.

    Talking about Indian off-spinners, Harbhajan said Ashwin is by far the best and there aren’t too many in the line. He named former Mumbai Indians recruit Akshay Wakhare as a promising bowler too.

    The duo joked a bit about Kedar Jadhav after one of the fans mentioned his name. Rohit jokingly said that if Jadhav played Test cricket he would retire hurt after playing just half an hour.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/crick...XqKDqJhFK.html


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    It took a while for him to get going in test cricket and by the time he did, the Pakistan team was going through its worse political/in fighting period ever...the dreaded late 90s and early 00s. It just so happened that Saqqy would get injured repeatedly, players would be selected and then dropped repeatedly and he could never find any footing in the side again.

    Being dropped from an ODI side which was starting to become weak was also an immensely stupid decision by the board and the series of captains/coaches which followed. He however, found a home in county cricket and used that to secure his future rather than trying for comebacks for Pakistan, and well played for that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    .

    The duo joked a bit about Kedar Jadhav after one of the fans mentioned his name. Rohit jokingly said that if Jadhav played Test cricket he would retire hurt after playing just half an hour.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/crick...XqKDqJhFK.html
    Even team mates joking about Jadhav's fitness and yet selectors continuously picked him..


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  70. #70
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    I don't think Saqlain managed his career very well. The lure of the pound became too great, he overdid County cricket and he wasn't the best when it came to looking after his fitness and his injuries.



  71. #71
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    For someone whose Doosra terrorized and confused the worlds top batsmen when he first came on to the scene. It was downright embarrassing and humiliating to see the likes of Courtney Walsh, Makhaya Ntini, Darren Gough e.t.c. comfortably pick and deal with your Doosra at the end. People have no idea how many matches and games Saqlain cost Pakistan with his ineffectiveness from 2000 to 2004. That is a very long time to play someone on past reputation and chances to give. His body language was completely devoid of confidence and he kept operating like a debutant, someone who knew he was playing fraudulently and could be dropped any time due to lack of performance.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    No one could pick his doosra: Harbhajan on Pakistan off-spinner

    India cricket fans will always remember some cricketers from the Pakistani team, who were a constant thorn in Team India’s flesh. One of them was the off-spinner par excellence Saqlain Mushtaq. Saqlain was the bowler who dismissed Sachin Tendulkar in the Chennai Test match of 1998, which eventually led to a heartbreaking loss to the arch-rivals for India.

    Saqlain had an impeccable record in ODIs as well, averaging more than 2 wickets per match for the majority of his career. He also took a hat-trick in Pakistan’s 1999 ICC World Cup campaign, which ended in a defeat in the final to Australia.

    Talking about great off-spinners Harbhajan put Sri Lankan legend Muttiah Muralitharan at the top of the list. He also named the likes of Aussie Nathan Lyon and England’s Graeme Swann. Rohit Sharma asked Harbhajan to give his opinion on Pakistan’s Saqlain Mushtaq and Bhajji was all praise for the man who invented the ‘doosra’.

    “Saqi bhai was class, he was a class bowler, a great bowler. No one could pick the doosra he bowled and he was a true match-winner. He would often bowl between the 45th and 50th over and invariably pick a couple of wickets and win the match for his team,” Harbhajan said while lavishing praise on Saqlain.

    Talking about Indian off-spinners, Harbhajan said Ashwin is by far the best and there aren’t too many in the line. He named former Mumbai Indians recruit Akshay Wakhare as a promising bowler too.

    The duo joked a bit about Kedar Jadhav after one of the fans mentioned his name. Rohit jokingly said that if Jadhav played Test cricket he would retire hurt after playing just half an hour.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/crick...XqKDqJhFK.html
    Comments: Dont know if Harbhajan was living in a cave, this may have been true from 1996 to 1999 but once Saqlain started to advertise the doosra and show his county colleague how he bowls it and when the major teams started doing their video analysis, homework in terms of how differently he releases the ball when he bowls his offspinner, his doosra, the difference in speeds, trajectory, bowling run up variations, they realized Saqi's doosra was extremely easy to pick and they got the measure of when he would bowl his off spinner and when he would bowl the doosra. It was downright embarrassing to watch him in his last 4 years for Pakistan.

    A world class bowler is able to maintain his effectiveness for a long period of time and find new and different ways to be effective from the beginning to the end of his career.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    Pak is the worst asian side in terms of creating long term test spinners the one's who can take at least 400 test wickets
    That's just a fact
    Yes but that is only one criteria. They are pretty good while they play generally! Ajmal, Saqlain, Mushtaq, Shah won many games for Pak and generally at pretty great averages. Kaneria had the bad luck of Akmal and his fixing but he was good too. Qadir is still regarded as one of the best leg spinners.

  74. #74
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    Spot on.
    For eg. Brett lee only had bouncer and yorker which clearly didnt work in test matches good enough for no 8, 9,,10,11 but rarely troubled top 6. A high economy didnt help either.
    Criminal to average above 25-26 if you have Mcgrath and Gillespie as partners.

  75. #75
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    Another honourable mention is Kumble.
    He used to be virtually a little better version of Ashley Giles outside India. but after 2002, he stratergize his action, developed a top spinner, floater, attacked more and quite impactful overseas.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    1. Because he was at least 5 years older than his supposed age. At least.

    2. Because he was reliant upon rough created by the left-arm angle of Wasim Akram to thrive in Test cricket. As Wasim Akram faded, Saqlain became like Merlin without a wand.

    3. Because the doosra stopped being a shock to batsmen.
    To add to #3. I've watched Saqlain from side angle and Murali from side angle. Murali's doosra is quicker and aggressively dips and he also varies his doosra's speed. Saqlain's doosra is slower than his stock offspin and just one speed. Saqlain was also easier to just go off backfoot and hit it for a single. He simply stopped being effective.

  77. #77
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    I would add a few years on to his correct age too.

    He's listed as 43, I reckon he's at least 47, maybe more.



  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realromeo View Post
    To add to #3. I've watched Saqlain from side angle and Murali from side angle. Murali's doosra is quicker and aggressively dips and he also varies his doosra's speed. Saqlain's doosra is slower than his stock offspin and just one speed. Saqlain was also easier to just go off backfoot and hit it for a single. He simply stopped being effective.
    Was watching some old clips, Saqlain from 1996-early 99 was bowling both his off spinner and doosra with the same loop, speed and his run up, action was also faster. Batsmen don't have much time to see his wrists and how he is releasing the ball and they are also not helped by the fact the off spinner, doosra are landing in the pitch, on the same spot at almost the same speed, loop so they can't effectively play him from the pitch either.

    However from the 1999 Australian tour onwards, you can see Saqlain not effectively using his left knee as he used too. He is now being forced to dart in his off spinner at a faster, flatter trajectory and he can't quite bowl the doosra with the same trajectory, loop, speed. The batsmen can now easily tell, read and predict what is coming. From 2000 onwards, Saqlain no longer had the body language of the elite superstar bowler of his side and he probably realized that he was on borrowed time

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    He was still better than arshad khan even without both his knees
    Both players had an awful lot more to contribute and even if their body couldn't cope anymore they still should have a respectful end to their careers amongst acrimonious times
    Im sorry but they didnt They were done When your unfit to play cricket through age, injuries or simply lack of performance then your career will come to an end

    I dont understand what kind of respectful end they shouldve got? Pakistan cricket doesnt owe any player anything U perform you stay in the team, you dont then someone else comes in

    Its unfair to domestic players that someone with shot knees whos unfit to get through matches due to lack of fitness is selected ahead of them

  80. #80
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    To give saqi his due though Although his light didnt shine for long he did shine very very bright

    The pioneer of the doosra was an absolute genius during the 4-5 years he shone He was what warne was to leg spin during his peak


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