Will you take the vaccine for Covid-19? - Page 12


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View Poll Results: Will you take the vaccine for Covid-19?

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  • Yes

    50 86.21%
  • No

    8 13.79%
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  1. #881
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    If anyone would like to answer.

    Has anyone had their children vaccinated yet?

    See below CNN Dr ecouraging kids via Sesame Street to get vaccinated. No mention of of any vaccine side effects, damage. But the puppet did say only the arm hurt a little. Shocking brainwashing of kids





    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  2. #882
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    What side effects and what damage?

  3. #883
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    My 11 year old is vaccinated fully. I live in a community of quality doctors, and they all have had their children fully vaccinated as well. No vaccine (including Covid vaccinations) has long term damage or risks associated with them.

    Itís false if someone tells you there is long lasting damage or risk associated with any vaccination. Please be educated!

  4. #884
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  5. #885
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    My children are both under 5 so the vaccine is not yet considered suitable for them, but Iím sure it will be approved soonÖ

  6. #886
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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60050996

    Hana Horka: unvaccinated Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

    A folk singer from the Czech Republic has died after deliberately catching Covid, her son has told the BBC.

    Hana Horka, 57, was unvaccinated and had posted on social media that she was recovering after testing positive, but died two days later.

    Her son, Jan Rek, said she got infected on purpose when he and his father had the virus, so she could get a recovery pass to access certain venues.

    The Czech Republic reported a record number of cases on Wednesday.

    Mr Rek and his father, who are both fully vaccinated, both caught Covid over Christmas.

    But he said his mother had decided not to stay away from them, preferring instead to expose herself to the virus.

    "She should have isolated for a week because we tested positive. But she was with us the whole time," he said.

    Proof of vaccination or recent infection from the virus is required in the Czech Republic to gain entry to many social and cultural venues, including cinemas, bars and cafes.

    His mother was a member of one of the oldest Czech folk groups, Asonance.

    She had wanted to catch Covid so there would be fewer restrictions on her movement, Mr Rek explained.

    Two days before she died, she wrote on social media that she was recovering: "Now there will be theatre, sauna, a concert".

    On Sunday morning, the day she died, Ms Horka said she was feeling better and dressed to go for a walk.

    But then her back started hurting, so she went to lie down in her bedroom.

    "In about 10 minutes it was all over," her son said. "She choked to death".

    Although she was unvaccinated, Jan Rek stressed that his mother did not believe in some of the more bizarre conspiracy theories about Covid vaccines.

    "Her philosophy was that she was more OK with the idea of catching Covid than getting vaccinated. Not that we would get microchipped or anything like that," he said.

    There was no point in trying to discuss the issue with her as it would just get too emotional, he added.

    Instead, he hoped that by telling his story he could convince others to get vaccinated.

    "If you have living examples from real life, it's more powerful than just graphs and numbers. You can't really sympathise with numbers."

    The number of Covid cases in the Czech Republic reached a new daily high on Wednesday, with 28,469 cases reported in a population of 10.7m people.

    The government has recently introduced new measures to combat the rise, including mandatory testing for employees and schoolchildren.

    The isolation period for people who test positive but have no symptoms has been reduced from 14 days to five.

    Earlier this month, thousands of people demonstrated in Prague and other cities against the possible introduction of mandatory vaccination for some sections of society.

    The government is expected to announce its plans soon.

    Around 63% of the Czech Republic's total population has been fully vaccinated, compared with an average of 69% across the EU.

  7. #887
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    All very well unvaccinated dying from covid stupid of her deliberately getting covid.
    How many people died after taking the vaccine why does the mainstream media does not report that?
    I had covid few months back was bad cough, fever, muscle pains etc recovered from it Thank God but was not vaccinated.
    Last week tested positive with covid just mild symptoms light cough & headache.
    So this proves to me I have antibodies which will fight against any new variants and don't need to be jabbed with boosters or new vaccines.

  8. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by khan-92 View Post
    All very well unvaccinated dying from covid stupid of her deliberately getting covid.
    How many people died after taking the vaccine why does the mainstream media does not report that?
    I had covid few months back was bad cough, fever, muscle pains etc recovered from it Thank God but was not vaccinated.
    Last week tested positive with covid just mild symptoms light cough & headache.
    So this proves to me I have antibodies which will fight against any new variants and don't need to be jabbed with boosters or new vaccines.
    Perhaps believing that there is a larger conspiracy at work and "MAINSTREAM MEDIA" is covering for it, maybe, its more plausible some fringe media outlets are the ones making up stories about how people are dying from vaccinations. Did you think about that? By and large, the medical community and experts will tell you that vaccination prevents death and a vast majority of deaths due to covid right now are those who are unvaccinated.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  9. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Perhaps believing that there is a larger conspiracy at work and "MAINSTREAM MEDIA" is covering for it, maybe, its more plausible some fringe media outlets are the ones making up stories about how people are dying from vaccinations. Did you think about that? By and large, the medical community and experts will tell you that vaccination prevents death and a vast majority of deaths due to covid right now are those who are unvaccinated.
    Just go on social media of people relating stories of their loved ones dying of shots.
    Have you seen any mainstream media report this?
    Most people in hospital now are vaccinated bet you did not hear that as well?

  10. #890
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    If anyone would like to answer.

    Has anyone had their children vaccinated yet?

    See below CNN Dr ecouraging kids via Sesame Street to get vaccinated. No mention of of any vaccine side effects, damage. But the puppet did say only the arm hurt a little. Shocking brainwashing of kids



    On the contrary I feel it is some of the adults who are either brainwashed or too much ego to accept the scientific truth.

  11. #891
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    High Covid death rates skewed by people who died from other causes, admits Sajid Javid.

    Health Secretary reveals daily government figures might be unreliable as ONS data show fewer deaths registered to Covid.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-virus-admits/

    So it was true all along, Covid deaths in the UK were exaggerated!

    The Project Fear team will have you believe 150000 died when 85% of the deaths were in the over 80s and they are the most vulnerable. they were going to hospital with many illnesses and died. In passing the NHS gave them covid but that is not why they died.

    In reality, in the past 2 years, 17000 died directly because of Covid. NOT 150000!

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=08

    @KingKhanWC @James
    Last edited by Technics 1210; 20th January 2022 at 08:45.

  12. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    High Covid death rates skewed by people who died from other causes, admits Sajid Javid.

    Health Secretary reveals daily government figures might be unreliable as ONS data show fewer deaths registered to Covid.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-virus-admits/

    So it was true all along, Covid deaths in the UK were exaggerated!

    The Project Fear team will have you believe 150000 died when 85% of the deaths were in the over 80s and they are the most vulnerable. they were going to hospital with many illnesses and died. In passing the NHS gave them covid but that is not why they died.

    In reality, in the past 2 years, 17000 died directly because of Covid. NOT 150000!

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=08

    @KingKhanWC @James
    Most COVID deaths have co-morbidities. But you can say that about every other disease condition too. People tend not to die of just one thing, other than violence and accidents.

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  13. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    If anyone would like to answer.

    Has anyone had their children vaccinated yet?

    See below CNN Dr ecouraging kids via Sesame Street to get vaccinated. No mention of of any vaccine side effects, damage. But the puppet did say only the arm hurt a little. Shocking brainwashing of kids.
    Sesame Street also tells kids to go to school. No mention of the chance of getting run over on the way there, or killed by a school shooter. Shocking brainwashing of kids.

  14. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Sesame Street also tells kids to go to school. No mention of the chance of getting run over on the way there, or killed by a school shooter. Shocking brainwashing of kids.
    Getting run-over or being killed by a school shooter is not a choice unlike getting vaccinated.

  15. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Most COVID deaths have co-morbidities. But you can say that about every other disease condition too. People tend not to die of just one thing, other than violence and accidents.

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    This doesn’t change the point; Deaths by Covid were exaggerated and as a result the incorrect cause of death were stated on death certificates.

    Dying with, dying of, are 2 totally different things.

  16. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Getting run-over or being killed by a school shooter is not a choice unlike getting vaccinated.
    But getting into a position where those outcomes become possible is, so my analogy holds up.

  17. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    My 11 year old is vaccinated fully. I live in a community of quality doctors, and they all have had their children fully vaccinated as well. No vaccine (including Covid vaccinations) has long term damage or risks associated with them.

    It’s false if someone tells you there is long lasting damage or risk associated with any vaccination. Please be educated!
    Since the MRNA vaccines are so new, how can you be so sure there is no risk of long term damage ?

  18. #898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    This doesn’t change the point; Deaths by Covid were exaggerated and as a result the incorrect cause of death were stated on death certificates.

    Dying with, dying of, are 2 totally different things.
    I think itís academic. Would those diabetics have survived without COVID? I think most would. Lockdowns, vaccination, and masks have protected us from losing another million people to COVID co-morbidities.

  19. #899
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    Quote Originally Posted by khan-92 View Post
    All very well unvaccinated dying from covid stupid of her deliberately getting covid.
    How many people died after taking the vaccine why does the mainstream media does not report that?
    I had covid few months back was bad cough, fever, muscle pains etc recovered from it Thank God but was not vaccinated.
    Last week tested positive with covid just mild symptoms light cough & headache.
    So this proves to me I have antibodies which will fight against any new variants and don't need to be jabbed with boosters or new vaccines.

    Other pro vax posters will tell you would have died because you were not vaccinated.

    What they forget is in entire 2020, no one was vaccinated in the world, yet death rates were similar to 2021 when people started getting vaccinated.
    If anything deaths in 2021 from Covid in America was far higher than in 2020

  20. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    Since the MRNA vaccines are so new, how can you be so sure there is no risk of long term damage ?
    Are you saying we should never apply anything new?

    Where will that get humanity?

  21. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    But getting into a position where those outcomes become possible is, so my analogy holds up.
    Analogy isn’t the same as reality.

    The Covid death numbers were exaggerated, the government lied, doctors lied, millions in lockdown, businesses bust, jobs lost, sectors lost, millions duped, profits for big pharmas, contracts for mates of government, yet all the while people with serious illnesses such as cancer, were devoid of screening/medicine/operations.

  22. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Are you saying we should never apply anything new?

    Where will that get humanity?
    Never said that. I was responding to the blatantly false claim of "there is no risk of any long term damage with covid vaccines"
    Such a blanket claim cannot be made until we are a few years into giving Mrna vaccines

  23. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    Never said that. I was responding to the blatantly false claim of "there is no risk of any long term damage with covid vaccines"
    Such a blanket claim cannot be made until we are a few years into giving Mrna vaccines
    The only known long term effect of the vaccines are profits for Big Pharma.

  24. #904
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    Other upward trends thank to the exaggeration of Covid:

    Mental health issues.
    Personal/Commercial debt.
    Inflation.
    Cost of living.
    Bankruptcies.
    Interest rates.
    Supply chain issues.
    Negligence of non Covid illnesses.
    Polarisation of society.
    Project fear.

  25. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Other upward trends thank to the exaggeration of Covid:

    Mental health issues.
    Personal/Commercial debt.
    Inflation.
    Cost of living.
    Bankruptcies.
    Interest rates.
    Supply chain issues.
    Negligence of non Covid illnesses.
    Polarisation of society.
    Project fear.
    What was the alternative though?

    No lockdown and a million dead. NHS overwhelmed, bodies unburied, mass cremations by the Army.

  26. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What was the alternative though?

    No lockdown and a million dead. NHS overwhelmed, bodies unburied, mass cremations by the Army.
    Where did you get the million figure from? NHS is always overwhelmed. Bodies unburied and mass cremations? Only where the media cameras are pointing.

    The alternative was to tell the public the truth. Instead governments, doctors, health organisations unleashed a tsunami of mass hysteria and panic. Big pharma and politicians cashed in; the rest suffered unnecessarily.

  27. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Other upward trends thank to the exaggeration of Covid:

    Mental health issues.
    Personal/Commercial debt.
    Inflation.
    Cost of living.
    Bankruptcies.
    Interest rates.
    Supply chain issues.
    Negligence of non Covid illnesses.
    Polarisation of society.
    Project fear.
    Also more suicides and a huge increase in domestic violence incidents as well.

  28. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What was the alternative though?

    No lockdown and a million dead. NHS overwhelmed, bodies unburied, mass cremations by the Army.
    No good options.

  29. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What was the alternative though?

    No lockdown and a million dead. NHS overwhelmed, bodies unburied, mass cremations by the Army.
    Sweden had lockdowns, how come they had a lower death rate per capita than France or the UK, both of which had lockdowns ?

    Same goes for India which hah nationwide lockdown, Pakistan did not, and yet India's death rate is higher than Pakistan's

    Lockdowns have little to do with death rates from Covid

  30. #910
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    https://trialsitenews.com/79000-aust...cine-injuries/

    Will we see other governments start paying for injuries.

  31. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Where did you get the million figure from? NHS is always overwhelmed. Bodies unburied and mass cremations? Only where the media cameras are pointing.

    The alternative was to tell the public the truth. Instead governments, doctors, health organisations unleashed a tsunami of mass hysteria and panic. Big pharma and politicians cashed in; the rest suffered unnecessarily.
    Of course it didnít happen, because the measures you deride worked.

    The NHS is pushed very hard but has not been overwhelmed, due to the lockdowns. Thatís the key. They have been able to treat the patients as they have not come in a tidal wave. Without the lockdowns, COVID patients would have come in a tidal wave. There would not have been enough beds. Without lockdowns and NHS care, a predicted 2% fatality rate means 1.4 million casualties. Thatís what we avoided.

  32. #912
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    I heard an interesting statistic today that 17,000 people died directly from covid in the last 2 years, whilst it is still a high number, its nowhere as high as government would have led you to believe. could anyone verify this?

    Sajid javid also confirmed the 28 day positive lag if you had covid i the last 28 days and died in that period from anything unrelated it would go down as a covid death, its all coming out now

  33. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Of course it didnít happen, because the measures you deride worked.

    The NHS is pushed very hard but has not been overwhelmed, due to the lockdowns. Thatís the key. They have been able to treat the patients as they have not come in a tidal wave. Without the lockdowns, COVID patients would have come in a tidal wave. There would not have been enough beds. Without lockdowns and NHS care, a predicted 2% fatality rate means 1.4 million casualties. Thatís what we avoided.
    Lockdowns are just a delay tactic which come at an extremely high human and economic cost, if they ďworkedĒ then right now there would be no more Covid ó but itís everywhere. Pretty much everyone I know or spoken to has had it now. My whole family has had it this week, still self isolating. After 3 vaccines. The simple fact isÖ lockdowns arenít a solutionÖ

  34. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Of course it didn’t happen, because the measures you deride worked.

    The NHS is pushed very hard but has not been overwhelmed, due to the lockdowns. That’s the key. They have been able to treat the patients as they have not come in a tidal wave. Without the lockdowns, COVID patients would have come in a tidal wave. There would not have been enough beds. Without lockdowns and NHS care, a predicted 2% fatality rate means 1.4 million casualties. That’s what we avoided.
    The lockdowns didn’t work, they simply delayed an inevitability. Hence why out of lockdown, there was a spike in Covid cases.

    The fatality rate has been proven to be false. It’s much lower than 2%. 17000 people actually died because of Covid a cording to official records in the past 2 years. How many people died in the same period because they were waiting for non covid related treatment?

    Not enough beds? The temp hospitals were setup, but were empty. Main hospitals were also near empty; this was all reported but ignored in the headlines.

    Also, while it’s one thing to lose a loved one because of Covid, it’s quite another to lose a loved one due to negligence of non-covid illnesses because hospitals were refusing to accept non Covid patients - who needed help. More people died because they couldn’t access the health service than people who died from covid.

  35. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    I heard an interesting statistic today that 17,000 people died directly from covid in the last 2 years, whilst it is still a high number, its nowhere as high as government would have led you to believe. could anyone verify this?

    Sajid javid also confirmed the 28 day positive lag if you had covid i the last 28 days and died in that period from anything unrelated it would go down as a covid death, its all coming out now
    Check post #891.

    I have provided 2 links.

    1. The government admitting the number is 17000

    2. The Government releasing the official stats after a Freedom of information request.

  36. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Check post #891.

    I have provided 2 links.

    1. The government admitting the number is 17000

    2. The Government releasing the official stats after a Freedom of information request.
    Thanks for flagging should have read before commenting, but this is just the tip of the iceberg , i had a convo on another thread in this forum where i was telling people government ministers were admitting this live on sky news at the time, people were acting like i was some sort of conspiracy theorist, but it always comes true in the end.

  37. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    I heard an interesting statistic today that 17,000 people died directly from covid in the last 2 years, whilst it is still a high number, its nowhere as high as government would have led you to believe. could anyone verify this?

    Sajid javid also confirmed the 28 day positive lag if you had covid i the last 28 days and died in that period from anything unrelated it would go down as a covid death, its all coming out now
    One must be aware of these sort of statistics that get narrowly interpreted by people on social media who twist them to suit a narrative.

    Diseases don't always act independently on each other - Covid may not have directly caused the other 133000 deaths but it would've accelerated it anongst those with CVD, respiratory disease etc.

    I mean, that's the very nature of pandemics - they cause such an upsurge in demand for healthcare that it results in neglect and delay of other non-pandemic patient groups. It's not an argument to NOT tackle the pandemic.

  38. #918
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    I stay out of Covid debates as they're now another element of our toxic Culture Wars where people are hopelessly polarised thanks to social media misinformation. I'll summarise my views and leave it there:

    Unlike @Pakpak @moghul and others - as a Pharmacist I'm mercifully spared from the horrors of ICU and Emergency Departments. However I've seen the other consequences of Covid - prescription backlogs, staff absences, LFT shortages etc. Unlike some, I won't play Armchair Virologist as that's not my background (although my Uni thesis was on Antibiotic Resistance - a BIGGER killer than Covid) but I'll make a few observations:

    1) Vaccination efficacy and side effects: No vaccine is 100% effective, especially when viruses like all living organisms adapt upon evolutionary pressures. The intention is to equip the body with the antibodies required to fight infection to prevent serious disease. If you're in a car crash, it's better to wear a seatbelt and sustain whiplash - than fly head-first through the windscreen !

    Let's remove the emotion and focus on facts - the UK data on Alpha and Delta is overwhelming. Since the vaccine rollout, deaths and hospitalisations have significantly fallen. According to ICNARC who audit all ICU admissions, the majority of pts admitted to ICU were unvaccinated. The French Epi-Phare study involving 22m people saw vaccinated pts were at 9x less risk of hospitalisation compared to unvaccinated pts.

    Omicron lowers vaccine efficacy after two jabs but the booster dose restores it. That too wanes over time like natural immunity - but Omicron is a milder variant anyway. Whether we need more boosters depends a) on lethality of future variants - difficult to predict but evidence for 4th dose sofar weak, and b) ensuring POORER nations where variants are emerging are vaccinated. Rich Western nations must stop hoarding vaccines !

    Side effect profiles are still variable. If you do suffer SEs, report it via Yellow Card Scheme. However you'd probably never touch any tablet ever again if you opened up the Information Leaflet inside a pack of Paracetamol or Ibuprofen - and read the list of potential SEs !

    2) Natural vs artificial immunity: Which is better ? Depends on the virus. For diseases like Tetanus and HPV - natural defences are rubbish. For Covid - it's more complicated because natural immunity is so variable across individuals. The La Jolla Immunology Institute found 100-fold range in immunological memory between pts ! Plus unlike vaccination, you must first get sick to become naturally immune and carry the risks of hospitalisation etc.

    Reinfection rates are also 16x higher with Omicron so natural immunity is like wives - good to have but don't bank on them.

    3) Mandates: Any HCP will tell you the efficacy of interventions depend on patient adherence (not coercion) based upon informed consent. Lay out the pros and cons - and let pts decide. It's why I always oppose Fat/Sugar Taxes. On employer mandates my stance is - vaccination is preferable, but refusal is acceptable provided you submit daily tests and wear PPE (unless medically exempt). There's no ideal civil libertarian solution, but our liberties were already significantly curtailed pre-Covid with mass surveillance, speed limits on roads, detention without trial etc. There's no place on Earth adopting universal civil libertarianism unless you count lawless states.

    Lastly, we're going to have to live with Covid like other respiratory illnesses. Larger economies and densely populated nations do not have the luxury of zero Covid policies. The public have already sacrificed much, and adherence to further repeated restrictions will only wane.

    Links:

    1) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    2) https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/...a-00505601089b (Pages 45-47)
    3) https://www.epi-phare.fr/rapports-de...d-octobre-2021
    4) https://www.lji.org/news-events/news...onths-or-more/
    5) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...th-covid-19-uk

  39. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    I stay out of Covid debates as they're now another element of our toxic Culture Wars where people are hopelessly polarised thanks to social media misinformation. I'll summarise my views and leave it there:

    Unlike @Pakpak @moghul and others - as a Pharmacist I'm mercifully spared from the horrors of ICU and Emergency Departments. However I've seen the other consequences of Covid - prescription backlogs, staff absences, LFT shortages etc. Unlike some, I won't play Armchair Virologist as that's not my background (although my Uni thesis was on Antibiotic Resistance - a BIGGER killer than Covid) but I'll make a few observations:

    1) Vaccination efficacy and side effects: No vaccine is 100% effective, especially when viruses like all living organisms adapt upon evolutionary pressures. The intention is to equip the body with the antibodies required to fight infection to prevent serious disease. If you're in a car crash, it's better to wear a seatbelt and sustain whiplash - than fly head-first through the windscreen !

    Let's remove the emotion and focus on facts - the UK data on Alpha and Delta is overwhelming. Since the vaccine rollout, deaths and hospitalisations have significantly fallen. According to ICNARC who audit all ICU admissions, the majority of pts admitted to ICU were unvaccinated. The French Epi-Phare study involving 22m people saw vaccinated pts were at 9x less risk of hospitalisation compared to unvaccinated pts.

    Omicron lowers vaccine efficacy after two jabs but the booster dose restores it. That too wanes over time like natural immunity - but Omicron is a milder variant anyway. Whether we need more boosters depends a) on lethality of future variants - difficult to predict but evidence for 4th dose sofar weak, and b) ensuring POORER nations where variants are emerging are vaccinated. Rich Western nations must stop hoarding vaccines !

    Side effect profiles are still variable. If you do suffer SEs, report it via Yellow Card Scheme. However you'd probably never touch any tablet ever again if you opened up the Information Leaflet inside a pack of Paracetamol or Ibuprofen - and read the list of potential SEs !

    2) Natural vs artificial immunity: Which is better ? Depends on the virus. For diseases like Tetanus and HPV - natural defences are rubbish. For Covid - it's more complicated because natural immunity is so variable across individuals. The La Jolla Immunology Institute found 100-fold range in immunological memory between pts ! Plus unlike vaccination, you must first get sick to become naturally immune and carry the risks of hospitalisation etc.

    Reinfection rates are also 16x higher with Omicron so natural immunity is like wives - good to have but don't bank on them.

    3) Mandates: Any HCP will tell you the efficacy of interventions depend on patient adherence (not coercion) based upon informed consent. Lay out the pros and cons - and let pts decide. It's why I always oppose Fat/Sugar Taxes. On employer mandates my stance is - vaccination is preferable, but refusal is acceptable provided you submit daily tests and wear PPE (unless medically exempt). There's no ideal civil libertarian solution, but our liberties were already significantly curtailed pre-Covid with mass surveillance, speed limits on roads, detention without trial etc. There's no place on Earth adopting universal civil libertarianism unless you count lawless states.

    Lastly, we're going to have to live with Covid like other respiratory illnesses. Larger economies and densely populated nations do not have the luxury of zero Covid policies. The public have already sacrificed much, and adherence to further repeated restrictions will only wane.

    Links:

    1) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    2) https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/...a-00505601089b (Pages 45-47)
    3) https://www.epi-phare.fr/rapports-de...d-octobre-2021
    4) https://www.lji.org/news-events/news...onths-or-more/
    5) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...th-covid-19-uk
    ďIf you're in a car crash, it's better to wear a seatbelt and sustain whiplash - than fly head-first through the windscreen !Ē - But what if I am Iron-Man? donít see the point in a seatbelt

    Great post, hoarding vaccines is a major problem and while we should certainly prioritise home, in the grand scheme we can only win together.

    With the booster dose, do you feel it being advised was premature considering how less severe Omricon has turned out to be? you can forgive those already double jabbed for hesitancy and also the thought that they may need to potentially get injected annually - especially those under 40.

  40. #920
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    Good post @Markhor.

  41. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    I stay out of Covid debates as they're now another element of our toxic Culture Wars where people are hopelessly polarised thanks to social media misinformation. I'll summarise my views and leave it there:

    Unlike @Pakpak @moghul and others - as a Pharmacist I'm mercifully spared from the horrors of ICU and Emergency Departments. However I've seen the other consequences of Covid - prescription backlogs, staff absences, LFT shortages etc. Unlike some, I won't play Armchair Virologist as that's not my background (although my Uni thesis was on Antibiotic Resistance - a BIGGER killer than Covid) but I'll make a few observations:

    1) Vaccination efficacy and side effects: No vaccine is 100% effective, especially when viruses like all living organisms adapt upon evolutionary pressures. The intention is to equip the body with the antibodies required to fight infection to prevent serious disease. If you're in a car crash, it's better to wear a seatbelt and sustain whiplash - than fly head-first through the windscreen !

    Let's remove the emotion and focus on facts - the UK data on Alpha and Delta is overwhelming. Since the vaccine rollout, deaths and hospitalisations have significantly fallen. According to ICNARC who audit all ICU admissions, the majority of pts admitted to ICU were unvaccinated. The French Epi-Phare study involving 22m people saw vaccinated pts were at 9x less risk of hospitalisation compared to unvaccinated pts.

    Omicron lowers vaccine efficacy after two jabs but the booster dose restores it. That too wanes over time like natural immunity - but Omicron is a milder variant anyway. Whether we need more boosters depends a) on lethality of future variants - difficult to predict but evidence for 4th dose sofar weak, and b) ensuring POORER nations where variants are emerging are vaccinated. Rich Western nations must stop hoarding vaccines !

    Side effect profiles are still variable. If you do suffer SEs, report it via Yellow Card Scheme. However you'd probably never touch any tablet ever again if you opened up the Information Leaflet inside a pack of Paracetamol or Ibuprofen - and read the list of potential SEs !

    2) Natural vs artificial immunity: Which is better ? Depends on the virus. For diseases like Tetanus and HPV - natural defences are rubbish. For Covid - it's more complicated because natural immunity is so variable across individuals. The La Jolla Immunology Institute found 100-fold range in immunological memory between pts ! Plus unlike vaccination, you must first get sick to become naturally immune and carry the risks of hospitalisation etc.

    Reinfection rates are also 16x higher with Omicron so natural immunity is like wives - good to have but don't bank on them.

    3) Mandates: Any HCP will tell you the efficacy of interventions depend on patient adherence (not coercion) based upon informed consent. Lay out the pros and cons - and let pts decide. It's why I always oppose Fat/Sugar Taxes. On employer mandates my stance is - vaccination is preferable, but refusal is acceptable provided you submit daily tests and wear PPE (unless medically exempt). There's no ideal civil libertarian solution, but our liberties were already significantly curtailed pre-Covid with mass surveillance, speed limits on roads, detention without trial etc. There's no place on Earth adopting universal civil libertarianism unless you count lawless states.

    Lastly, we're going to have to live with Covid like other respiratory illnesses. Larger economies and densely populated nations do not have the luxury of zero Covid policies. The public have already sacrificed much, and adherence to further repeated restrictions will only wane.

    Links:

    1) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    2) https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/...a-00505601089b (Pages 45-47)
    3) https://www.epi-phare.fr/rapports-de...d-octobre-2021
    4) https://www.lji.org/news-events/news...onths-or-more/
    5) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...th-covid-19-uk
    Thank you for your post very informative, can i ask from your point of view why the flu jab is not mandatory using the same car crash seat belt analogy? i am genuinely curious. Ive never had a flu jab or covid vaccine in my lifetime , and as far as i am aware have never contracted the flu and or covid, as my body gets older i would reassess the need for a vaccine however at my age and level of fitness i don't see the requirement for me to get the vaccine.

    Could someone also clarify if the strength of transmission or spread would be affected by the vaccine, i.e. is it harder to give someone covid if you are vaccinated.
    Last edited by silentkiller187; 20th January 2022 at 20:18.

  42. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    Never said that. I was responding to the blatantly false claim of "there is no risk of any long term damage with covid vaccines"
    Such a blanket claim cannot be made until we are a few years into giving Mrna vaccines
    There are some very widespread lies/half truths/misconceptions about mRNA vaccinations.
    1. They are not something the scientific community just whipped up after Covid. The science was there for decades. It was being studied and researched.
    2. The vaccines are approved and subjected to same rigorous safety protocols as other medications/treatments. The medical research community at large vouches for its safety.

    Further helpful info can be found here:
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

    I would really like to know/hear more from people here who claim they lost their loved ones from vaccination. (Location/vaccinations received,
    Etc). A lot of that in my experience has been innuendo. At the start of the pandemic, back in mid 2020, I remember hearing/reading about certain instances in Pakistan where a few people were allegedly ďkilledĒ when the doctors injected them with something. That was prior to the vaccines. I am not sure what was going on there but I suspect those were cases related to experimental drugs/treatments which were never eventually cleared.

    I am in the USA and I have close associates who are highly qualified and educated medical professionals practicing medicine or working in the research arena. They are all very comfortable with the mRNA vaccines, are all vaccinated and have their children over the age of 10 vaccinated as well. As with everything, the science behind the virus propagation changes with new variants and the overall efficacy, so thatís a challenge they all admit is there but what is clear here is that there is no malicious conspiracy here at work that involves coaxing people to vaccinate and that itís somehow dangerous or risky for people.

    Those are some very dangerous misconceptions thst need to be addressed and corrected.

  43. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Thank you for your post very informative, can i ask from your point of view why the flu jab is not mandatory using the same car crash seat belt analogy? i am genuinely curious. Ive never had a flu jab or covid vaccine in my lifetime , and as far as i am aware have never contracted the flu and or covid, as my body gets older i would reassess the need for a vaccine however at my age and level of fitness i don't see the requirement for me to get the vaccine.

    Could someone also clarify if the strength of transmission or spread would be affected by the vaccine, i.e. is it harder to give someone covid if you are vaccinated.
    Thatís remarkable youíve never had the flu, whatís your life style like and any personal habits that may have helped you ?

  44. #924
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    That’s remarkable you’ve never had the flu, what’s your life style like and any personal habits that may have helped you ?
    when i say flu i mean influenza in its actual format, lot of people say they have flu but its an actual cold or fever or even infection rather than actual flu.

    To be fair i like to think i am still young, quite active i cycle regularly play football twice a week and cricket when its season, i smoke occasionally so cant say im 100% healthy and fit, i dont think theres anything i have done differently which has helped me avoid, it maybe it affects people differently and i have had it without knowing, similar to asymptomatic covid. But i would never consider the flu jab at my age and as far as i am aware its only offered to people of a certain age i may be wrong, he only reason i mentioned both is they are quite similar but also quite different in the way they are handled and talked about. flu vs ccovid vaccine.

  45. #925
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    Flu is generally thrown around a lot when people get sick. The fact is mostly people have common cold that may last a few days or a week. Flu is actually pretty bad. It takes up to two weeks to recover from it. Last time I had the flu, which was probably 10 years ago, it was pretty bad. Fever, upset stomach, coughing, sneezing, chills, headache, etc.

  46. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    when i say flu i mean influenza in its actual format, lot of people say they have flu but its an actual cold or fever or even infection rather than actual flu.

    To be fair i like to think i am still young, quite active i cycle regularly play football twice a week and cricket when its season, i smoke occasionally so cant say im 100% healthy and fit, i dont think theres anything i have done differently which has helped me avoid, it maybe it affects people differently and i have had it without knowing, similar to asymptomatic covid. But i would never consider the flu jab at my age and as far as i am aware its only offered to people of a certain age i may be wrong, he only reason i mentioned both is they are quite similar but also quite different in the way they are handled and talked about. flu vs ccovid vaccine.
    Fair play, have you ever had a cold ? but I guess you are right in that each person is different and how they are impacted by infection generally speaking

  47. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Fair play, have you ever had a cold ? but I guess you are right in that each person is different and how they are impacted by infection generally speaking
    Yes had the cold a few times and because I smoke I do get the odd chest infection every few years but touchwood never been anything more serious then a couple of days in bed each time.

    I’m not saying I would never take the vaccine but at the moment I don’t see any differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated and I think the pace at which the country is opening up after omicron suggests they may have been quick to jump the gun re boosters too.

  48. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Flu is generally thrown around a lot when people get sick. The fact is mostly people have common cold that may last a few days or a week. Flu is actually pretty bad. It takes up to two weeks to recover from it. Last time I had the flu, which was probably 10 years ago, it was pretty bad. Fever, upset stomach, coughing, sneezing, chills, headache, etc.
    Flu knocked me for six. Same symptoms. Vomiting too. Couldn’t even take Paracetamol, threw them back up straight away. Worst I ever felt.

  49. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    One must be aware of these sort of statistics that get narrowly interpreted by people on social media who twist them to suit a narrative.

    Diseases don't always act independently on each other - Covid may not have directly caused the other 133000 deaths but it would've accelerated it anongst those with CVD, respiratory disease etc.

    I mean, that's the very nature of pandemics - they cause such an upsurge in demand for healthcare that it results in neglect and delay of other non-pandemic patient groups. It's not an argument to NOT tackle the pandemic.
    Do not fall for the hype.

    This so called pharmacologist had made a statement devoid of any evidence or science.

    Where is the evidence that covid accelerated outcomes? Ask him.

    Do not let these people fool you. They are on the payroll. The more they prescribe, the more they earn.

    Remember this fact.

  50. #930
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    These doctors or medical professionals are so wishy washy - may have - could have - possibility - probably - all the words to cover all angles because they themselves do not have a clue!

  51. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    These doctors or medical professionals are so wishy washy - may have - could have - possibility - probably - all the words to cover all angles because they themselves do not have a clue!
    Who are we supposed to believe? Why so much hate for medical professionals? I feel some of the hate here comes from personal jealousy or discontentment. Doctors happen to be some of the smartest people who made it all the way through rigorous education and training.

    Are we supposed to believe random strangers on the internet/conspiracy theorists/politicians over our brightest scientific minds? How much sense does that make?

    Most of the stuff posted here by ďanti-medical communityĒ is nothing but conspiracy theories and personal opinions based on lies, nothing with grounding in scientific evidence. But I guess we should just take their word for it, right?

  52. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    These doctors or medical professionals are so wishy washy - may have - could have - possibility - probably - all the words to cover all angles because they themselves do not have a clue!
    That’s because you have to apply statistics in biomedical sciences, to make predictions. There’s a phenomenon called ‘biological variation’. It means you put two identical doses of strychnine into two identical rats - one lives and one dies. So you test the substance on 10,000 rats instead and you get a set of figures. You apply statistical techniques on those figures and that gives you the confidence to predict. But you won’t be able to say for sure.

  53. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Yes had the cold a few times and because I smoke I do get the odd chest infection every few years but touchwood never been anything more serious then a couple of days in bed each time.

    I’m not saying I would never take the vaccine but at the moment I don’t see any differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated and I think the pace at which the country is opening up after omicron suggests they may have been quick to jump the gun re boosters too.
    You miss-understand the mechanism of Influenza and mechanism of vaccine.

  54. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Who are we supposed to believe? Why so much hate for medical professionals? I feel some of the hate here comes from personal jealousy or discontentment. Doctors happen to be some of the smartest people who made it all the way through rigorous education and training.

    Are we supposed to believe random strangers on the internet/conspiracy theorists/politicians over our brightest scientific minds? How much sense does that make?

    Most of the stuff posted here by “anti-medical community” is nothing but conspiracy theories and personal opinions based on lies, nothing with grounding in scientific evidence. But I guess we should just take their word for it, right?
    The trouble is that the more we learn, the less certain we become.

    Whereas the less we know, the more certain we are.

  55. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    “If you're in a car crash, it's better to wear a seatbelt and sustain whiplash - than fly head-first through the windscreen !” - But what if I am Iron-Man? don’t see the point in a seatbelt

    Great post, hoarding vaccines is a major problem and while we should certainly prioritise home, in the grand scheme we can only win together.

    With the booster dose, do you feel it being advised was premature considering how less severe Omricon has turned out to be? you can forgive those already double jabbed for hesitancy and also the thought that they may need to potentially get injected annually - especially those under 40.
    With the traffic in my two homes of Sheffield and Bradford you need to be built like Iron Man to survive

    Omicron is less severe but it still evades two doses, not so much with a third. Vaccine hesitancy will always be there especially amongst minority communities where uptake is lower - it won't be resolved by calling people idiots but through incentives and education.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Thank you for your post very informative, can i ask from your point of view why the flu jab is not mandatory using the same car crash seat belt analogy? i am genuinely curious. Ive never had a flu jab or covid vaccine in my lifetime , and as far as i am aware have never contracted the flu and or covid, as my body gets older i would reassess the need for a vaccine however at my age and level of fitness i don't see the requirement for me to get the vaccine.

    Could someone also clarify if the strength of transmission or spread would be affected by the vaccine, i.e. is it harder to give someone covid if you are vaccinated.
    This goes back to the consent vs coercion argument. I've always been taught that you get better patient outcomes through informed, voluntary consent than coercion. Morrisons are cutting sick pay for the unvaccinated which I think the wrong way to go about it, whereas New Mexico gave cash incentives for people to get jabbed.

    I don't know what the evidence says for Omicron but fully vaccinated pts are less likely to transmit the virus to household contacts than unvaccinated pts - and obviously the risk of serious disease is lower. Again, if everybody in this hypothetical line of traffic wore seatbelts in a crash - the risk of everybody dying is lower than if some did and others didn't.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...648-4/fulltext

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Who are we supposed to believe? Why so much hate for medical professionals? I feel some of the hate here comes from personal jealousy or discontentment. Doctors happen to be some of the smartest people who made it all the way through rigorous education and training.

    Are we supposed to believe random strangers on the internet/conspiracy theorists/politicians over our brightest scientific minds? How much sense does that make?

    Most of the stuff posted here by “anti-medical community” is nothing but conspiracy theories and personal opinions based on lies, nothing with grounding in scientific evidence. But I guess we should just take their word for it, right?
    Well Technics doesn't help his credibility on medical matters when he doesn't know the difference between a pharmacist and a pharmacologist.

    Clearly there's something personal against medics - I'm still waiting on his evidence that Jewish doctors murdered President Roosevelt

    Anyway don't feed the troll. When you wrestle in the mud you both get dirty.

  56. #936
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    These mumbo jumbo self proclaimed doctors/specialist have more time posting hymns than evidence.

    So easily exposed.

    Humpty dumpties.
    Last edited by Technics 1210; 21st January 2022 at 00:57.

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    Let the record reflect.


  58. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Thatís because you have to apply statistics in biomedical sciences, to make predictions. Thereís a phenomenon called Ďbiological variationí. It means you put two identical doses of strychnine into two identical rats - one lives and one dies. So you test the substance on 10,000 rats instead and you get a set of figures. You apply statistical techniques on those figures and that gives you the confidence to predict. But you wonít be able to say for sure.
    We have seen the stats, 17000 died from Covid instead of the fallacious number of 150000.

    Reminds me of 6 million.

  59. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    With the traffic in my two homes of Sheffield and Bradford you need to be built like Iron Man to survive

    Omicron is less severe but it still evades two doses, not so much with a third. Vaccine hesitancy will always be there especially amongst minority communities where uptake is lower - it won't be resolved by calling people idiots but through incentives and education.


    This goes back to the consent vs coercion argument. I've always been taught that you get better patient outcomes through informed, voluntary consent than coercion. Morrisons are cutting sick pay for the unvaccinated which I think the wrong way to go about it, whereas New Mexico gave cash incentives for people to get jabbed.

    I don't know what the evidence says for Omicron but fully vaccinated pts are less likely to transmit the virus to household contacts than unvaccinated pts - and obviously the risk of serious disease is lower. Again, if everybody in this hypothetical line of traffic wore seatbelts in a crash - the risk of everybody dying is lower than if some did and others didn't.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...648-4/fulltext


    Well Technics doesn't help his credibility on medical matters when he doesn't know the difference between a pharmacist and a pharmacologist.

    Clearly there's something personal against medics - I'm still waiting on his evidence that Jewish doctors murdered President Roosevelt

    Anyway don't feed the troll. When you wrestle in the mud you both get dirty.
    Perhaps its my old age that heightens these concerns, but I see this stuff on a popular Pakistani forum, with similar views across the board from what I am assuming are educated, young Pakistanis in UK and Pakistan, I am concerned the level of disinformation, and for lack of a better term "lack of belief in the scientific process" does nothing but provide wrong guidance to others. I can only imagine how some other raw/impressionable younger posters pick up on this stuff and start believing in some larger "conspiracies" at play here and completely stop believing in any form of authority and expertise on such matters.

    Science usually does not deal in absolutes or 100%, and keeps evolving, however, the scientific method has served us well over the years. It gives us an educated, evidence based path forward. Now that may change, and I accept that, but that doesnt mean its wrong based on the evidence provided at the time.
    You simply cannot pooh pooh it completely because of it suggested course correction and start believing in some other mumbo jumbo that somehow seems to satisfy your whims.

    .... and there are a lot of people here with their own whims and fancies and they try to peddle those here as absolute facts, while providing zero evidence and facts in support.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaLoco View Post
    You miss-understand the mechanism of Influenza and mechanism of vaccine.
    I’m happy to learn if you wish to enlighten me

  61. #941
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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60055436

    Covid: NHS in push to vaccinate the final four million

    More than four million adults in the UK have not yet had a first Covid jab and 16 million have not had their booster.

    This winter, NHS vaccine teams have been out on the streets trying to win over those hard-to-reach groups who might have struggled to access health services in the past.

    Carole Phillips, an NHS clinical director in Portsmouth, is best described as a straight talker. A former army medic who served in Afghanistan, she is now running outreach programmes in the city - trying to get the Covid vaccine to the most vulnerable.

    "In Portsmouth, we have still got a large percentage of the population - 20% - who haven't had their first jab," she says. "We have to reach out to these people, regardless of their lifestyle, to protect all of us in the end."

    Carole and a colleague are out jabbing people at a walk-in clinic based in the Recovery Hub - a local centre aimed at the homeless community.

    There is a steady stream of people coming in, some with their dogs, as she calmly explains the benefits of the vaccine and its possible side effects.

    Just after midday, 53-year-old Barry Wilson arrives for his first jab of Pfizer. He has been living rough, or in a hostel, since 2015 but says he has "done his research" and is worried about the virus, especially with his underlying health problems.

    "I feel like one of the lucky ones because I've never had Covid, so I just keep putting [the vaccine] off and off," he says. "I've asked a lot of people who've had the jab and they said, because I've got [the lung disease] COPD, then I'm at higher risk."

    It is very difficult to accurately measure vaccination rates in the homeless population, but people working in the community say take-up is well below the national average.

    There is an element of vaccine scepticism driven by social media and rumour on the streets.

    But often it comes down to access - this is a group who might not be registered with a GP and can have a distant relationship with health services in general.

    Carole says she often hears "scaremongering" stories linking the jab with patient records and the social care system.

    "If you get somebody who feeds them negativity, without any real truth, then sometimes it's hard to get past that," she says.

    "We have to reassure them that all we're trying to do is protect their health and protect them from Covid."

    Over the last year, Carole and her team have vaccinated about 100 rough sleepers in Portsmouth - often going out on to the streets to speak to people directly.

    Across the country, other targeted projects are up and running. In Sussex, a special "quiet" vaccine service has been set up aimed at people with autism and dementia.

    In rural Derbyshire, mountain rescue volunteers have been used to transport the elderly to vaccination sites.

    Near the giant Lakeside shopping centre in Essex, a long lane leads to the largest community of travelling showmen in Europe.

    About 2,000 people live in static homes and caravans on yards off the main road - heading out from the site to fairgrounds to run dodgems, helter-skelters and other rides.

    Two NHS vans are parked discreetly at the bottom of the road in the drizzle, open to anyone but aimed primarily at that group.

    Council liaison officers who know the community well are on hand for reassurance, advice and to give out rapid testing kits.

    Madison Manning, 19, who is here for her second jab, says she still has memories of the "bad summer" of 2020, when the pandemic was just months old and many travelling fairs were banned from operating.

    "We deal with hundreds of people day-in and day-out, so it's safer for both them and us to have the vaccine," she says. "Otherwise it's just going to keep going round in circles like it has for the last two years now. Life has got to carry on."

    Madison did have her first vaccine dose at a local GP surgery but says she found it busy and unsafe.

    NHS staff working here recognise that mainstream services like mass vaccination centres can put off some in the community.

    "They may feel stigmatised or judged in some way," says Lidia Woods, who is running the outreach programme for Essex Partnership University NHS Foundation Trust. "I know the nurses would never do that, but it's just their personal views.

    "All the myths on social media have also frightened some people. We are here to reassure them, but we are always going to have someone who doesn't want it."

    Emma Chapman, here to ask about a booster dose, says she decided to wait for her first jab after falling pregnant, and had it shortly after giving birth. "There are people who don't want to get vaccinated and that is their choice," she says. "I've got young children and older relatives so I wanted to be more protected."

    The hope is that the Covid vaccine drive itself could have a longer term benefit and break down barriers between the NHS and groups which have struggled to access healthcare.

    Staff say the wider ambition is to tackle other health inequalities which have persisted for generations in some communities.

    "For me it's all about reaching people and building a rapport for the future," says Carole.

    ďAnd this could be a really good opportunity to do that."

  62. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    With the traffic in my two homes of Sheffield and Bradford you need to be built like Iron Man to survive

    Omicron is less severe but it still evades two doses, not so much with a third. Vaccine hesitancy will always be there especially amongst minority communities where uptake is lower - it won't be resolved by calling people idiots but through incentives and education.


    This goes back to the consent vs coercion argument. I've always been taught that you get better patient outcomes through informed, voluntary consent than coercion. Morrisons are cutting sick pay for the unvaccinated which I think the wrong way to go about it, whereas New Mexico gave cash incentives for people to get jabbed.

    I don't know what the evidence says for Omicron but fully vaccinated pts are less likely to transmit the virus to household contacts than unvaccinated pts - and obviously the risk of serious disease is lower. Again, if everybody in this hypothetical line of traffic wore seatbelts in a crash - the risk of everybody dying is lower than if some did and others didn't.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...648-4/fulltext


    Well Technics doesn't help his credibility on medical matters when he doesn't know the difference between a pharmacist and a pharmacologist.

    Clearly there's something personal against medics - I'm still waiting on his evidence that Jewish doctors murdered President Roosevelt

    Anyway don't feed the troll. When you wrestle in the mud you both get dirty.
    I struggle to believe this is true, just a month or so ago we were told that we had the highest number of positive cases since the pandemic began, more than in the first year, the only difference was in year 1 there was no vaccine, so even with vaccine we had record numbers contracting covid, somehow the numbers dont add up.

  63. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post

    Clearly there's something personal against medics - I'm still waiting on his evidence that Jewish doctors murdered President Roosevelt

    .
    Blimey, thatís a new one for me! Maybe FDR wasnít stopping the Holocaust fast enough for them?

    Glad to read youíre a Yorkshireman and Bradfordian. I did my BSc there.

  64. #944
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    The MSM will NEVER focus or report on the survival rate which stands above 99% in the UK.

    17000 Covid deaths in about 2 years is dwarfed by the number who die from smoking/alcohol/flu related deaths.

    Instead the so called scientists/doctors are colluding with the government and big pharma by exaggerating the number of Covid deaths for the sole purpose of controlling society through fear and vaccine sales/experimentation! Of course during which the biggest wealth transfer is taking place! Not to mention the polarisation of society where liberals, who promote choice/freedom, are the first to judge those who refuse the vaccine.

    You have more chance of stress killing you, more chance of debt destroying you, more chance of mental well-being wiping you - than Covid 19 effecting you.

  65. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The MSM will NEVER focus or report on the survival rate which stands above 99% in the UK.

    17000 Covid deaths in about 2 years is dwarfed by the number who die from smoking/alcohol/flu related deaths.

    Instead the so called scientists/doctors are colluding with the government and big pharma by exaggerating the number of Covid deaths for the sole purpose of controlling society through fear and vaccine sales/experimentation! Of course during which the biggest wealth transfer is taking place! Not to mention the polarisation of society where liberals, who promote choice/freedom, are the first to judge those who refuse the vaccine.

    You have more chance of stress killing you, more chance of debt destroying you, more chance of mental well-being wiping you - than Covid 19 effecting you.
    Not one for conspiracies, but this seems more than just a conspiracy. No coincidence that the 10 richest people in the world became a lot richer i wonder how many more of their reportees benefited. add to this the numerous reports now coming out saying how much a burden on society older generations have become, like they are almost trying to justify their deaths subconciously.

    Also how many high profile government figures have been found to be routinely breaking the rules covid either only affects the peasents or the people in charge know its not as serious as they are making it out to be.

    The fact that the UK is even considering the idea of no more legal requirements for isolation for positive covid let alone implementing it before the march 24th shows mhow much concern they have for the virus.

    The issue is the divide has grown even more now, your either a believer of the narative thats changed plenty of times or your a looney, seems like no one is allowed to question anything anymore and thats the sad thing.
    Last edited by silentkiller187; 21st January 2022 at 18:42.

  66. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Not one for conspiracies, but this seems more than just a conspiracy. No coincidence that the 10 richest people in the world became a lot richer i wonder how many more of their reportees benefited. add to this the numerous reports now coming out saying how much a burden on society older generations have become, like they are almost trying to justify their deaths subconciously.

    Also how many high profile government figures have been found to be routinely breaking the rules covid either only affects the peasents or the people in charge know its not as serious as they are making it out to be.

    The fact that the UK is even considering the idea of no more legal requirements for isolation for positive covid let alone implementing it before the march 24th shows mhow much concern they have for the virus.

    The issue is the divide has grown even more now, your either a believer of the narative thats changed plenty of times or your a looney, seems like no one is allowed to question anything anymore and thats the sad thing.
    While I do not doubt big pharma has profited from the pandemic, I am highly critical of the inferences some people have derived from the situation. Any good business takes advantage of the opportunity or demand so to speak to make profits. The pharmas have done exactly that. But claiming they either 1) are responsible for the pandemic or 2) are overstating the urgency of the pandemic during its earlier days ...

    amongst some other conspiracy stuff I kept reading is just plain ridiculous. I dont care how much the numbers were exaggerated or misreported in the UK, I know firsthand in the US, the mortality rates were pretty high due to a significant large chunk of the population being old. I understand that risk is low in countries where a major chunk of the population is young such as Pakistan. But let us not confuse the profiteering with being the root cause of the pandemic. Its incorrect deduction or reasoning with zero grounding in logic and facts.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  67. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    While I do not doubt big pharma has profited from the pandemic, I am highly critical of the inferences some people have derived from the situation. Any good business takes advantage of the opportunity or demand so to speak to make profits. The pharmas have done exactly that. But claiming they either 1) are responsible for the pandemic or 2) are overstating the urgency of the pandemic during its earlier days ...

    amongst some other conspiracy stuff I kept reading is just plain ridiculous. I dont care how much the numbers were exaggerated or misreported in the UK, I know firsthand in the US, the mortality rates were pretty high due to a significant large chunk of the population being old. I understand that risk is low in countries where a major chunk of the population is young such as Pakistan. But let us not confuse the profiteering with being the root cause of the pandemic. Its incorrect deduction or reasoning with zero grounding in logic and facts.
    You may not care that you are being lied to but i definitely do especially by the people that are chosen to lead us. Here in the UK as soon as the pandemic started friends of the government started receiving contracts for PPE, one got a contract for masks and one for sanitisers, both had completely different business that sold other things pre pandemic but it was decided they were good enough to supply the country. Which led to massive shortages in PPE. One thing is pharmas taking advantage but it another when friends of people in high places who have nothing to do in the field get given big contracts.

    GPS and hospitals received extra funding and grants for every covid patient they treated, this then lead to anyone having covid within 6 months of entering a hospital being put down as covid regardless of the reason they visited hospital or even died it was attributed to covid.

    If you look at logic then you can make the same case your making for covid right now for the flu, and other infections and diseases that we are living with. Anyone can skew data to paint whichever picture they want to.

    Add to that the fact that there has been more covid patients in hospital in the UK post vaccine rollout then there was in the year before the vaccine was administered. Like i said i am not anti vax covid denier anything like that i just find it very strange how now all of a sudden the reaction to covid has changed as we get closer to the expiration of the covid legislation bill which was rushed through a couple of years ago.
    Last edited by silentkiller187; 21st January 2022 at 19:25.

  68. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    You may not care that you are being lied to but i definitely do especially by the people that are chosen to lead us. Here in the UK as soon as the pandemic started friends of the government started receiving contracts for PPE, one got a contract for masks and one for sanitisers, both had completely different business that sold other things pre pandemic but it was decided they were good enough to supply the country. Which led to massive shortages in PPE. One thing is pharmas taking advantage but it another when friends of people in high places who have nothing to do in the field get given big contracts.

    GPS and hospitals received extra funding and grants for every covid patient they treated, this then lead to anyone having covid within 6 months of entering a hospital being put down as covid regardless of the reason they visited hospital or even died it was attributed to covid.

    If you look at logic then you can make the same case your making for covid right now for the flu, and other infections and diseases that we are living with. Anyone can skew data to paint whichever picture they want to.

    Add to that the fact that there has been more covid patients in hospital in the UK post vaccine rollout then there was in the year before the vaccine was administered. Like i said i am not anti vax covid denier anything like that i just find it very strange how now all of a sudden the reaction to covid has changed as we get closer to the expiration of the covid legislation bill which was rushed through a couple of years ago.
    Well thats UK, and since I do not live there, I personally do not have any dog in the fight there. It sounds like its not just big pharma but every Tom, Dick and Harry trying to profit from the pandemic there.

    I am sure similar stuff goes on here in the US too but perhaps wording it as "You do not care" or "You are being lied to" is missing the point I was trying to make.

    I guess in a nutshell, what I am trying to say is how does any of that convince people to not fully comprehend the urgency of the disease, and its threat and their decision to NOT vaccinate?

    If you are saying the above statements of yours somehow convince you the disease is not that dangerous (may not to you but older and immunocompromised members of your society) and that you do not have to vaccinate or observe other prtective measures around you .... then I am sorry, I do not agree with that part.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  69. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Not one for conspiracies, but this seems more than just a conspiracy. No coincidence that the 10 richest people in the world became a lot richer i wonder how many more of their reportees benefited. add to this the numerous reports now coming out saying how much a burden on society older generations have become, like they are almost trying to justify their deaths subconciously.

    Also how many high profile government figures have been found to be routinely breaking the rules covid either only affects the peasents or the people in charge know its not as serious as they are making it out to be.

    The fact that the UK is even considering the idea of no more legal requirements for isolation for positive covid let alone implementing it before the march 24th shows mhow much concern they have for the virus.

    The issue is the divide has grown even more now, your either a believer of the narative thats changed plenty of times or your a looney, seems like no one is allowed to question anything anymore and thats the sad thing.
    I am still waiting for the rich and powerful to die from Covid 19. Example: Boris, Trump, Prince Philip, Putin, to name but a few, had Covid, but all survived! (Prince Philip ultimately died from natural causes, old age).

    Funny how Covid seems to kill the poor and helpless! An intelligent virus that will target and kill after an analysis of bank balance and title etc! LOL!

    Government are breaking Covid rules because they know Covid is an exaggeration and the outcome a hoax.

  70. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I am still waiting for the rich and powerful to die from Covid 19. Example: Boris, Trump, Prince Philip, Putin, to name but a few, had Covid, but all survived! (Prince Philip ultimately died from natural causes, old age).

    Funny how Covid seems to kill the poor and helpless! An intelligent virus that will target and kill after an analysis of bank balance and title etc! LOL!

    Government are breaking Covid rules because they know Covid is an exaggeration and the outcome a hoax.
    What a strange and smart disease indeed. The only disease in the whole wide world in the history of mankind, that seems to target the poor only, indeed..

    very very ominous and nefarious!

    *SMDH*


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  71. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I am still waiting for the rich and powerful to die from Covid 19. Example: Boris, Trump, Prince Philip, Putin, to name but a few, had Covid, but all survived! (Prince Philip ultimately died from natural causes, old age).
    Two of those were hospitalised.

    Obviously, they can all afford the best health care.

    Poor people always have worse chances, itís called health inequality.
    Last edited by Robert; 21st January 2022 at 23:06.

  72. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    High Covid death rates skewed by people who died from other causes, admits Sajid Javid.

    Health Secretary reveals daily government figures might be unreliable as ONS data show fewer deaths registered to Covid.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-virus-admits/

    So it was true all along, Covid deaths in the UK were exaggerated!

    The Project Fear team will have you believe 150000 died when 85% of the deaths were in the over 80s and they are the most vulnerable. they were going to hospital with many illnesses and died. In passing the NHS gave them covid but that is not why they died.

    In reality, in the past 2 years, 17000 died directly because of Covid. NOT 150000!

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=08

    @KingKhanWC @James
    A bit of difference 17,000 not 150000!

    I have a lot of respect for those like yourself who have been jabbed but still see the truth! Many who have been jabbed will be reluctant to accept, they may feel a bit silly now. You can read the early posts on this thread.

    It was nothing less than a scam to get force control, lockdowns and blackmail people into getting jabbed.

    Covid only deaths is what matters. If someone has heart issues, gets covid and dies, the main cause should be counted, heart issues not Covid. Its no different to someone with a heart issue, getting the flu and also dying. Its never put down as the flu as the cause of death in such a circumstance.

    Its now proven natural immunity is upto 20-30x more protective without the effects or having vaccine injuries. Even the CDC have now accept this.

    Prior COVID infection more protective than vaccination during Delta surge -U.S. study
    https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...us-2022-01-19/

    As for vaccinating children, a child is 4-6 more times more likely to suffer myocarditis than be hospitalised by Covid. This is according to Dr. Peter A. McCullough, who cited a Honk Kong study.

    As I wrote in the first post on this thread. If you're young and healthy you dont need this emergency use vaccine which we have no idea of longe term damage.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  73. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Sesame Street also tells kids to go to school. No mention of the chance of getting run over on the way there, or killed by a school shooter. Shocking brainwashing of kids.


    Going to school is very normal for children.

    Getting a vaccine which HASNT been approved by the FDA and not needed is not normal.

    Very poor post Robert.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  74. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Two of those were hospitalised.

    Obviously, they can all afford the best health care.

    Poor people always have worse chances, itís called health inequality.
    Hospitalisation is not the point though is it? Even if it were, health care is universal, isn't this what the NHS prides in? If level of health care determines survival then we do not have a universal health care system but a private system where money equate to life.

    Basically you agree the rich and powerful pay and survive, while the poor, wait and die. Meaning Covid isn't the threat, the lack of money is.

  75. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    A bit of difference 17,000 not 150000!

    I have a lot of respect for those like yourself who have been jabbed but still see the truth! Many who have been jabbed will be reluctant to accept, they may feel a bit silly now. You can read the early posts on this thread.

    It was nothing less than a scam to get force control, lockdowns and blackmail people into getting jabbed.

    Covid only deaths is what matters. If someone has heart issues, gets covid and dies, the main cause should be counted, heart issues not Covid. Its no different to someone with a heart issue, getting the flu and also dying. Its never put down as the flu as the cause of death in such a circumstance.

    Its now proven natural immunity is upto 20-30x more protective without the effects or having vaccine injuries. Even the CDC have now accept this.



    https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...us-2022-01-19/

    As for vaccinating children, a child is 4-6 more times more likely to suffer myocarditis than be hospitalised by Covid. This is according to Dr. Peter A. McCullough, who cited a Honk Kong study.

    As I wrote in the first post on this thread. If you're young and healthy you dont need this emergency use vaccine which we have no idea of longe term damage.
    For the record, I have not taken any vaccine.

    Natural immunity all the way brother!

  76. #956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    For the record, I have not taken any vaccine.

    Natural immunity all the way brother!
    My apologies, must have confused you with another poster.

    A 52 year old man fully vaccinated died in the gym last week. He had heart imflamation.

    Sadly these cases will only increase.

    Its interesting pro-vax doctors or medical profssionals can find government data quickly but cannot find data to confirm how many vaccine injuries there has been inc deaths.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  77. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    My apologies, must have confused you with another poster.

    A 52 year old man fully vaccinated died in the gym last week. He had heart imflamation.

    Sadly these cases will only increase.

    Its interesting pro-vax doctors or medical profssionals can find government data quickly but cannot find data to confirm how many vaccine injuries there has been inc deaths.
    Fast tracked vaccines are causing more problems for the healthy.

    I have a few friends who soaked up the hoax, took not one, but multiple jabs, and have stated they do not feel the same after since! We’re talking almost a year after taking the profit racketeering vaccines!

    Still, anyone who took the vaccine is now on the national DNA database - mission accomplished by the the government!

  78. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Fast tracked vaccines are causing more problems for the healthy.

    I have a few friends who soaked up the hoax, took not one, but multiple jabs, and have stated they do not feel the same after since! We’re talking almost a year after taking the profit racketeering vaccines!

    Still, anyone who took the vaccine is now on the national DNA database - mission accomplished by the the government!
    I'll bite, how exactly are the government collecting everyone's DNA when giving them a vaccine?

  79. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    My apologies, must have confused you with another poster.

    A 52 year old man fully vaccinated died in the gym last week. He had heart imflamation.

    Sadly these cases will only increase.

    Its interesting pro-vax doctors or medical profssionals can find government data quickly but cannot find data to confirm how many vaccine injuries there has been inc deaths.
    You mean “doctors”. “Pro-vax doctors” is a tautology.

    AstraZenica has something like 1/180,000 chance of causing a blood clot. Which is of course treatable with Warfarin.

  80. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    You mean “doctors”. “Pro-vax doctors” is a tautology.

    AstraZenica has something like 1/180,000 chance of causing a blood clot. Which is of course treatable with Warfarin.
    There is some controversy over the Pfizer/Moderna effect on the heart.

    I had a Moderna vaccine as the booster and the leaflet inside mentioned a small risk of myocarditis.

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