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  1. #1
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    Is racism beyond control in the USA?

    Seem to be too many cases of institutional and personal racist behaviour towards minorities in the USA.

    Of course there are good people as are bad ones in each society but to the outsiders, racism is rampant and out of control in the USA.

    Is that a correct reflection of reality?


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  2. #2
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    racism is no where near as bad as america's history, but that doesn't excuse the deterioration of society over past 5 or 10 years. the excessive arming of police has a lot to do with it. as does the increasing wealth gap between the average white and black household.

    the economic fallout from the current corona pandemic will only serve to increase inter communal tensions.

    institutional racism is a reality of behaviour across the world, its not unique to the usa, the only solution is the endogenous empowerment of the marginalised communities. small steps at a time, economic and political power are the only answers to countering this marginalisation, but it will take a lot of hard work, and a lot of time.

    i see too many pakistani's in the uk falling behind dispirited and disenfranchised from the economic system, i would love to see some body (formed of people who recognise a similar trend) that organises to support ethnic pakistani's academically and business wise within the UK.

  3. #3
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    Racism is a form of ignorance and backwardness. USA has some of the smartest people in the world but also have 10's of million of backward white racists in all forms of their society.

    More black people die of police force than die of diabetes. Imagine feeling you'd rather have diabetes instead of meeting a cop.

    America was built on racism, it was an industry and continues to be an industry but now in a more hidden subtle way. Blacks are used as labourers in prisons, many of them incocent of the crime they have been convicted of.

    Its not beyond control, it's a controlled system of racism.

    This is the nowhere near the worst which is yet to come.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    racism is no where near as bad as america's history, but that doesn't excuse the deterioration of society over past 5 or 10 years. the excessive arming of police has a lot to do with it. as does the increasing wealth gap between the average white and black household.

    the economic fallout from the current corona pandemic will only serve to increase inter communal tensions.

    institutional racism is a reality of behaviour across the world, its not unique
    to the usa, the only solution is the endogenous empowerment of the marginalised communities. small steps at a time, economic and political power are the only answers to countering this marginalisation, but it will take a lot of hard work, and a lot of time.

    i see too many pakistani's in the uk falling behind dispirited and disenfranchised from the economic system, i would love to see some body (formed of people who recognise a similar trend) that organises to support ethnic pakistani's academically and business wise within the UK.
    Can you expand on this as I feel you are generalising wrongly? Please show comparisons.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  5. #5
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    Just seen a video of Denzel Washington with a speech which bought him to tears.

    My question is his surname is a slave name. Why does he still keep it or anyone with a slave name continue to keep it?

    Mabye if all the millions of black people decided to end their slave family name, they would be on a start to a new beginning.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  6. #6
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    A diverse country with multiple cultures will always have conflicts be it India or USA.

    However they have most rights in place, uniform law for all citizens in fact may be affirmative action/reservation for the benefit of minorities etc, peopleís voice is heard and we can call the media right wing or left wing but there are different sides of the story which are presented and people can pick and chose . Thatís how a democracy works.

    As a minority in the USA, sure I have faced a couple of discriminating situations but nothing serious or nothing losing sleep over. It was just that they could have been bigots. They exist everywhere. Nothing exclusively can be done about it.

    However as you see in India were even the Majority voices itís displeasure if they feel bias or same way in the US where you see White people too come out on streets to protest such things means still the constitution and the values override everything.

    I mean does it need to be even said that bigotry or racism is bad? However such incidents big or small should not define an entire country.

    I would be more concerned about countries where things are done behind the curtain. Thatís more scary and concerning.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    A diverse country with multiple cultures will always have conflicts be it India or USA.

    However they have most rights in place, uniform law for all citizens in fact may be affirmative action/reservation for the benefit of minorities etc, peopleís voice is heard and we can call the media right wing or left wing but there are different sides of the story which are presented and people can pick and chose . Thatís how a democracy works.

    As a minority in the USA, sure I have faced a couple of discriminating situations but nothing serious or nothing losing sleep over. It was just that they could have been bigots. They exist everywhere. Nothing exclusively can be done about it.

    However as you see in India were even the Majority voices itís displeasure if they feel bias or same way in the US where you see White people too come out on streets to protest such things means still the constitution and the values override everything.

    I mean does it need to be even said that bigotry or racism is bad? However such incidents big or small should not define an entire country.

    I would be more concerned about countries where things are done behind the curtain. Thatís more scary and concerning.
    Basically close your eyes and let it happen and only be concerned when things are done behind the curtain

    Weird way to look at the situation my thing is cops are way to heavy handed with people who are not white that's 100% facts you can't spin that around

  8. #8
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    In America we acknowledge there's a problem. In Pakistan and India if someone says or does something racist everyone lets it slide and doesn't make a big deal, people have short memories and the media doesn't hold them to account, for example only a few months ago Zardari went on a racist tirade against Muhajirs, or what Shahbaz Sharif said about "Karachiites" not too long ago or what the late Haji Adeel said about throwing urdu-speakers into the Arabian sea, or the mass murder of Hazaras in Quetta. In India they have widespread racism against Kashmiris, northeast Indians, tamils, and biharis yet it isn't seen an issue over there. In the west, racism is something we take seriously.

  9. #9
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    I think the question not being asked is what are the deep underlying issues that created a large black under class in America. Is it systemic racism or something within the values and culture of those people. Can anything be done to help these people, let's for argument sake we get rid of the Police from these areas, will horrendous crime right increase or decrease? I suppose what I am trying to get at is, what practical steps can be taken to help these people or are they beyond help. For me education is the only way but having taught kids from similar backgrounds, it is rare for many kids to succeed from this underclass. So what's the solution(s)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Racism is a form of ignorance and backwardness.

    More black people die of police force than die of diabetes. Imagine feeling you'd rather have diabetes instead of meeting a cop.
    Ironically you label Americans as backward while posting incorrect stats.

    Over 10,000 African Americans die of diabetes every year. The number killed by police is less than 300.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-and-ethnicity

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Ironically you label Americans as backward while posting incorrect stats.

    Over 10,000 African Americans die of diabetes every year. The number killed by police is less than 300.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-and-ethnicity

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
    This seems like classic uncle tom. Dying from natural causes such as a disease and dying from police brutality are two totally different things. What's more of a trauma for you, one of your family members dying from cancer or another dying from first degree murder?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    This seems like classic uncle tom. Dying from natural causes such as a disease and dying from police brutality are two totally different things. What's more of a trauma for you, one of your family members dying from cancer or another dying from first degree murder?
    Yo, if 10'000 people are dying already due to diseases can I kill someone and get away with it?

    What's one dead more compared to 10'000?

    ------

    Ohhh just realized Napa's post was in a totally different context.

    Jokes still funny.
    Last edited by Sirris; 1st June 2020 at 05:22.

  13. #13
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    There needs to be an honest debate over this issue.

    Politically incorrect statements like how a vast majority of criminals in the USA are people of African-American decent need to be debated.

    The issue is far more complex than "white" people hating the "black" people just because of their "color". More than color it's a certain culture typically associated with certain group of people that's the issue.

    Racism as in people hating others because of a different color or look rarely exists. It's all about the culture and the threat associated with it.

    A person who grows up in a better neighborhood would have a different culture and outlook than a person grown up in ghetto and drugs.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    This seems like classic uncle tom. Dying from natural causes such as a disease and dying from police brutality are two totally different things. What's more of a trauma for you, one of your family members dying from cancer or another dying from first degree murder?
    What??? Do you understand between 300 and a number more than 30 times larger which is "more"?

  15. #15
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    I think racism in North America is blown out of proportion.

    Are there racists? Yes but the percentage is not very high considering it has over 320-million people. Most people are good people.

    You can find racists in every society. I know many racist desi folks. I have also seen racism among Africans and East Asians. It is not just a white or black thing; it is a human thing.

    I think there are bigger things to worry about than racism.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Can you expand on this as I feel you are generalising wrongly? Please show comparisons.
    the only two countries i can speak for are the uk and pakistan from experience and there is a level of instituional racism present in both, although a lot worse in pakistan.

    in the uk ive seen how once u go into the upper level management of most small to mid sized companies they become extremely ethnically homogenous, indians and jewish people are the only minorities who have made a space for themselves although by different methods.

    black friends have told me about how they have been treated by the police, and i don't need to go into that, if you have black friends you will know.

    when i was in pakistan i knew for a fact i was treated different because i was light skinned when i was in school. got a way with a lot more. my close family worked in a very large pakistani company, and they said unless u were from a specific ethnicity you would not make top level positions and it was true. i have freinds who have worked in a very major pakistani bank who have said they were asked about their specific religious background and that employee salaries depended on it (although they were told not to tell people who didnt belong to that background). i know a few ethnic baloch who lived in sindh, who have said that they were all held back in career terms simply for being balochi.

    its fundamentally the network effect, if u are a certain ethnicity, you are more likely to find people of that ethnicity recommended from your network, but when it comes to a supposed meritocracy in the employment market the compounded return of that network effect transforms into institutional disadvantage primarily manifest on racial grounds.

    id like to ask what makes you think i am generalising wrongly?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    I think racism in North America is blown out of proportion.

    Are there racists? Yes but the percentage is not very high considering it has over 320-million people. Most people are good people.

    You can find racists in every society. I know many racist desi folks. I have also seen racism among Africans and East Asians. It is not just a white or black thing; it is a human thing.

    I think there are bigger things to worry about than racism.
    Did you see the video of George Floyd?

    It's unjust and such things have been happening for a while now.

    A careful examination of the problem is necessary.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    Did you see the video of George Floyd?

    It's unjust and such things have been happening for a while now.

    A careful examination of the problem is necessary.
    I have seen it. It is sad and that police officer should receive a long prison sentence. He should be locked up for the rest of his life.

    However, debating this type of thing is useless. Do you really think people will stop being racists just because a person died?

    Besides, like I mentioned, you can find racists from all races.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 1st June 2020 at 06:07.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    I have seen it. It is sad and that police officer should receive a long prison sentence.

    However, debating this type of thing is useless. Do you really think people will stop being racists just because a person died?

    Besides, like I mentioned, you can find racists from all races.
    I don't care about the racism thing cause you are right it'll most likely keep on happening but I think policing is terrible in US they are way too paranoid about getting shot up that's why they treat everyone like a criminal so I don't know how but something should be done to fix that issue

    They are way too heavy handed with minorities and mostly nice to whites cause I think they can relate to them on some level like white underage kids drinking they can be like that was us at one point so they are linient but when they see Latinos, black smokin they can't picture themselves in thier situation cause they are different than them and they don't even make an effort to know the cammunity they are policing

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    I don't care about the racism thing cause you are right it'll most likely keep on happening but I think policing is terrible in US they are way too paranoid about getting shot up that's why they treat everyone like a criminal so I don't know how but something should be done to fix that issue

    They are way too heavy handed with minorities and mostly nice to whites cause I think they can relate to them on some level like white underage kids drinking they can be like that was us at one point so they are linient but when they see Latinos, black smokin they can't picture themselves in thier situation cause they are different than them and they don't even make an effort to know the cammunity they are policing
    There are two solutions I can think of:

    Option #1: Give American cops comprehensive body armors so that they don't worry about being injured/killed.

    Option #2: Gradually replace human cops with robots (may take a while to implement this).

    I have never faced racism from cops. Just play it cool and things should be fine.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 1st June 2020 at 06:33.


    Bangladeshi Fan


  21. #21
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    more so than racism, there is a huge amount of inequality in america. you have few people who are obscenely rich and a much larger percentage who lives paycheck to paycheck. check out this survey. 60% of people living in this country would be unable to afford an unexpected $1000 bill. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/mo...ected-expenses). 60%! many of these people are black, but a large number is white as well. and white people know that the color of their skin gives them an advantage over others. the election of trump is basically an expression of that privilege and wanting it not to change.


    Greatness is a choice. Mediocrity is a disease.

  22. #22
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    Which country of the world does not have racism and discrimination? Every country has its share of racism issues

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Which country of the world does not have racism and discrimination? Every country has its share of racism issues
    correct. US has far more inequality than most countries. it's a bigger issue than racism


    Greatness is a choice. Mediocrity is a disease.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by adil_909 View Post
    correct. US has far more inequality than most countries. it's a bigger issue than racism
    Capitalism means there will be winners and losers. Socialism means there is more equal wealth distribution but tbh in welfare states I have observed that people stop striving and working hard after a point because more or less half of what they earn ends up going to the govt and it becomes much harder to save.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by adil_909 View Post
    more so than racism, there is a huge amount of inequality in america. you have few people who are obscenely rich and a much larger percentage who lives paycheck to paycheck. check out this survey. 60% of people living in this country would be unable to afford an unexpected $1000 bill. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/mo...ected-expenses). 60%! many of these people are black, but a large number is white as well. and white people know that the color of their skin gives them an advantage over others. the election of trump is basically an expression of that privilege and wanting it not to change.
    Copy and paste the argument and post it everywhere

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Can you expand on this as I feel you are generalising wrongly? Please show comparisons.
    Institutionalized xenophobia:

    China ó Uighurs
    USA ó Blacks, Hispanics
    India ó Muslims, Bengalis
    Pakistan ó Ahmedis

  27. #27
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    (Other countries also have xenophobia although not initialized. Iím just pointing out the institutionalized cases)

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    Copy and paste the argument and post it everywhere
    Your strategy to win the war of Socialism

  29. #29
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    Wot you talking about.

    Murica is the BEST.

    Best.

    Best.

    Proof?



    I know FILTHY RICH black folks with access to everything a person would ever want and you could LITERALLY sense the frustration and deep rooted anger reg the racial discrimination in USA.

    These are some of the most rational people I have met. I didn't even know situation was that bad until I started hearing their perspective.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 1st June 2020 at 09:39.


    Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

  30. #30
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    Not just a USA problem, also a huge issue in Canada, uk and some of the western countries. Also state sponsored racism is an issue like what we are seeing in India.

  31. #31
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    It's a little blown out of proportion by the recent events but when it does exist, it's not only restricted to whites against Blacks. Blacks have just as much of racist hatred towards whites and other minorities as well.

    Whites are probably more political and systematic with their racism while Blacks are outspoken and in your face with their racism. So many people of Asian, Arabic, and South Asian decent have gotten attacked from both blacks and whites just because of their color or looks.

    The two times my family and friends faced it most was after the 9/11 attacks and then when Trump became the president.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    A diverse country with multiple cultures will always have conflicts be it India or USA.

    However they have most rights in place, uniform law for all citizens in fact may be affirmative action/reservation for the benefit of minorities etc, peopleís voice is heard and we can call the media right wing or left wing but there are different sides of the story which are presented and people can pick and chose . Thatís how a democracy works.

    As a minority in the USA, sure I have faced a couple of discriminating situations but nothing serious or nothing losing sleep over. It was just that they could have been bigots. They exist everywhere. Nothing exclusively can be done about it.

    However as you see in India were even the Majority voices itís displeasure if they feel bias or same way in the US where you see White people too come out on streets to protest such things means still the constitution and the values override everything.

    I mean does it need to be even said that bigotry or racism is bad? However such incidents big or small should not define an entire country.

    I would be more concerned about countries where things are done behind the curtain. Thatís more scary and concerning.
    We still don't know what's happening in Kashmir. Are media even allowed there? And it seems you are trying to justify what's happening in India by comparing it to USA.


    Tum mujhe bhaga sako aisa ho nahi sakta aur tum mere begair bhaago yeh main hone nahi dunga - Viru

  33. #33
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    This article is pretty damning!

    ==


    Trying to understand a riot is never easy, especially when it's still raging.

    The rolling unrest tearing through multiple American cities is many things. But it's not simple.

    The horrific slow death of a black man at the hands of an impassive white police officer was just the match that lit a building fury.

    Police officers wearing gas masks walk in smoke as one throws a tear gas cannister.

    Black Americans, already reeling from a virus that disproportionately affects them, have engaged in days of protests after an African-American man's death in police custody was caught on tape. The anger rose so quickly because there's little hope to be found, writes Emily Olson.

    The police statement — which described a suspect "under the influence" who suffered "medical distress", with no mention of the police officer pinning him down — didn't help.

    Neither did the four-day delay in bringing charges against the officer.

    And the President's tweet that "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" almost certainly fanned the flames.

    But many in the press and with social media platforms have instinctually pinned the blame on Donald Trump.

    Similarly, Trump and his allies in the media have gone after the left, specifically the militant anti-fascist group known as Antifa.

    There’s been another confrontation at the White House. Secret Service are trying to chase people out of a fortified Lafayette Square after they breached the barricades.

    I’m at H and 16th where it’s obvious police have deployed some sort of irritant because my skin is burning.

    He called the rioters "THUGS" and spread seeds of division by blaming Democratic Governors at a time when some sense of national unity was sorely needed.

    But the "Black Lives Matter" and "F*** 12" (F*** the Police) scrawled across shopfronts and walls in downtown Washington DC suggests that even in a city where politics is all pervasive, this is not all about Trump.

    In cities like Minneapolis, Dallas, Detroit, Memphis, New York, Los Angeles, the protesters have made next to no mention of Trump when interviewed on TV.

    In Atlanta, protesters stormed the headquarters for CNN, one of America's mainstream media outlets most critical of Trump.

    Perhaps the fact that the media can't help obsessing about Trump, when so many are struggling to put food on the table, educate their kids, or simply avoid getting killed by the systems designed to protect them, is part of the problem.

    As Martin Luther King Jr pointed out more than 50 years ago, "a riot is the language of the unheard".

    In Minneapolis, roughly 20 per cent of the population is black, but that demographic accounted for 60 per cent of the victims of police shootings between 2009 and 2019.

    It follows a national trend.

    Of the 1,099 people killed by police last year, almost a quarter were black, despite being only 13 per cent of the population.

    As pointed out in the New York Times, almost one out of every two police or correction officers who are fired for misconduct end up being reinstated.

    Dave Bicking, from Communities United against Police Brutality, told The Times the reason so many bad cops are allowed to stay on the force is because there's little legal precedent for dismissing them.

    "Because the department has never disciplined anybody, for anything, when they try to do it now, it's considered arbitrary and capricious," he said.

    Many protesters simply want to see a start to police reform by jailing the four officers involved in the death of George Floyd.

    But with more and more protests breaking out across America — and across the world — the cries are getting louder and more varied.

    Systemic inequality leads to systemic injustice
    Perhaps the closest thing to a common cause can be summed up in one word: injustice.

    Justice is the word on almost all the protesters' lips and written on many of the placards they wave in the air.

    This is a nation where 2.3 million people are locked up in a system of corporatised incarceration, funded by the taxpayer.

    This is a nation where the wealth gap between white and black Americans hasn't changed in 60 years.

    It's where the bottom 40 per cent of Americans own just 0.3 per cent of the wealth.

    And 40 million are now out of work.

    American taxpayers bailed out the very Wall Street bankers and traders who brought financial ruin upon them in 2008, only to see some of them hold parties and reap multi-million-dollar bonuses.

    Some of the demonstrators say they learned how to loot from corporate America.

    The embedded tweet no longer exists, or the account has been suspended.

    Just last month America watched the first massive coronavirus stimulus payment, meant for small business, get gobbled up by large companies who were given preferential access to the taxpayer funds because of their corporate bank accounts.

    Black Americans and Latinos are much more likely to have jobs that put them at risk of contracting COVID-19, and they're more likely to be forced to return to those jobs because of financial hardship.

    This is a nation that had such little faith in the system that many Americans voted for Trump to tear it down ("Drain the Swamp").

    The seething anger was there already. After two months of lockdown, it was ripe to burst out.

    For many, it just needed a cause.

    Protests have continued across the country over the death of George Floyd.(AP: Khadejeh Nikouyeh)
    "Eat the Rich" scrawled in graffiti across smashed up businesses seems to make that clear.

    There also appears to be some rogue elements hijacking the movement, including Antifa and other militant left groups.

    The death of George Floyd also appears to have riled up right-wing militia and "Patriot" forums, which are threatening violence and talking up the prospect of a civil race war known as Boogaloo.

    Some examples of militia/boogaloo overtures to those protesting the death of #GeorgeFloyd. Flag w/names of those killed by police/govt agents - unarmed Black men as well as anti-govt figures - making the rounds.

    There are countless conspiracy theories online about what's going on, but at this point in history it's just hard to determine fact from fiction.

    Some journalists from US outlets who are wandering into the crowds have been arrested, attacked or shot with rubber bullets, sometimes on live television.

    Of course, the journalists are not the only ones getting hurt. Both the freedom of the press and the freedom to assemble are protected in the very first amendment to the US constitution.

    And yet America has beamed countless mobile phone videos of fire, violence and destruction.

    One of the more shocking takes place in suburban Minneapolis.

    A woman standing on her porch films a Hummer roll down the street, followed by a troop of National Guard and police in military gear.

    They scream at her to get inside but she keeps filming.

    "Light em up!" one of the soldiers screams, moments before a gun is pointed at her and she is peppered with paintballs.

    The United States has taken on a distinctly dystopian edge.

    But unlike the movies and books, there's not a simple narrative playing out with a clear-cut ending.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-...weets/12306092


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  34. #34
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    Michael Jordan has released a statement on the death of George Floyd, condemning “ingrained racism” in the United States.

    “I am deeply saddened, truly pained and plain angry,” wrote Jordan in a statement posted by the Charlotte Hornets, the NBA team he owns. “I stand with those who are calling out the ingrained racism and violence toward people of color in our country. We have had enough.”

    Jordan has often been criticized for his reluctance to speak up on political matters, especially when compared to the activism of other NBA stars such as LeBron James and Guardian columnist Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. During a 1990 Senate race in his home state of North Carolina, Jordan refused to endorse Democrat Harvey Gantt, an African American who was running against the incumbent Republican Jesse Helms, a notorious racist.

    Jordan, who at the time had already won the first of his five NBA MVP awards, explained away his refusal to take a stance by saying: “Republicans buy sneakers, too.”

    Jordan has since insisted the comment was made in jest.

    The six-time NBA champion, widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time, said on Sunday that Americans needed to work together to find answers to the country’s problems.

    “I don’t have answers, but our collective voices show strength and the inability to be divided by others. We must listen to each other, show compassion and empathy and never turn out backs on senseless brutality,” he wrote.

    Curfews were in place in more than a dozen US cities on Sunday and Jordan urged people to protest peacefully. “We need to continue peaceful expressions against injustice and demand accountability,” he wrote.

    Jordan finished his statement by expressing his sympathy to the family of Floyd and others. “My heart goes out to the family of George Floyd and to the countless others whose lives have been brutally and senselessly taken through acts of racism and injustice,” he wrote.

    The former Chicago Bulls star has been in the news lately due to the popularity of The Last Dance, a documentary telling the story of his final championship season.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...basketball-nba


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Just seen a video of Denzel Washington with a speech which bought him to tears.

    My question is his surname is a slave name. Why does he still keep it or anyone with a slave name continue to keep it?

    Mabye if all the millions of black people decided to end their slave family name, they would be on a start to a new beginning.
    My wife kept her slave name, even after she married me. Yes it was the name of the plantation owner in the eighteenth century. Her grandmother’s grandmother was born into slavery, but great-grandmother was born a free woman. She said “What would I change it to?” She would have to go back through the Lloyd’s Register to find where her family came from in Africa, and even then those tribes practiced slavery on each other, though I understand it was more like a prison sentence then. She says “I kept what I was given”.

    I know you want to help, but how could Mrs Robert changing her surname to X start to remove racism from the UK? Racism is structural. Some European countries are doing better at changing the structure than others, but in the UK I fear we are going backwards since 2008.

  36. #36
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    Things so bad in US that China and Iran are having to tell them off!

    ==

    China and Iran have taken the opportunity to criticise the US over its problems of racism and police violence.

    "Black people's lives are also lives. Their human rights must also be guaranteed," Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian told reporters in Beijing.

    "Racism against ethnic minorities in the US is a chronic disease of American society. The current situation reflects once more the severity of the problems of racism and police violence in the US," Zhao added.

    Meanwhile, Iran's foreign ministry spokesman Abbas Mousavi spoke briefly in English at his weekly televised briefing, saying: "To the American officials and police: stop violence against your people and let them breathe!"


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  37. #37
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Ironically you label Americans as backward while posting incorrect stats.

    Over 10,000 African Americans die of diabetes every year. The number killed by police is less than 300.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-and-ethnicity

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
    It is backward and also jumping to conclusions without researching or reading properly.

    Please write to the LA times and call them backwards.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/stor...JXzdAMwSUpLzi8


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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    In America we acknowledge there's a problem. In Pakistan and India if someone says or does something racist everyone lets it slide and doesn't make a big deal, people have short memories and the media doesn't hold them to account, for example only a few months ago Zardari went on a racist tirade against Muhajirs, or what Shahbaz Sharif said about "Karachiites" not too long ago or what the late Haji Adeel said about throwing urdu-speakers into the Arabian sea, or the mass murder of Hazaras in Quetta. In India they have widespread racism against Kashmiris, northeast Indians, tamils, and biharis yet it isn't seen an issue over there. In the west, racism is something we take seriously.
    I don't see much point in comparing third world countries which have little experience of racial diversity to the US. Majority of the people in those countries barely understand there is a concept of racism. I think to keep the discussion relevant we should stick to developed countries where the population are living a relatively good standard of life.


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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    It is backward and also jumping to conclusions without researching or reading properly.

    Please write to the LA times and call them backwards.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/stor...JXzdAMwSUpLzi8
    I don't have to write to LA Times because obviously they did not write anything wrong. You on the other hand, jumped to a wrong conclusion as you were ignorant of what the article was actually saying.

    The article gives the figures for "leading causes of death for black men in their mid-to-late 20s", while you wrote "More black people die of police force than die of diabetes."

    Very few men in their mid-to-late 20s die of diabetes.

    No replies unless I see something intelligent.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I don't have to write to LA Times because obviously they did not write anything wrong. You on the other hand, jumped to a wrong conclusion as you were ignorant of what the article was actually saying.

    The article gives the figures for "leading causes of death for black men in their mid-to-late 20s", while you wrote "More black people die of police force than die of diabetes."

    Very few men in their mid-to-late 20s die of diabetes.

    No replies unless I see something intelligent.
    Any intelligent person would understand the context, it's young black men who are the biggest target of police brutality. It may seem ok to you as prejudism is the norm in India, ask fellow Hindus the Dalits. But more young black people dying of police brutality than any disease is a disgrace. Obviously elderly, mature blacks aren't targetted as much.

    Please dont reply lol


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  42. #42
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    Nothing is beyond control. If the state wants, there can be a nationwide curfew.

    Racism does exist in the USA, not only towards the blacks but also toward the brown skinned ones. Most people I have met have been made to feel bad at some point because of the skin color. People learn to live with it and try to stay among the good whites. This protest will die. It has to some day but I don't see how it will reduce racism in the USA. Governments world wide are getting right wing in their narrative.

  43. #43
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    Look racist sentiments exist all over the world and is tougher to eradicate. Truthfully, many of us are guilty of subconscious racism and stereotyping. However what African Americans have been subjected to in America is generations of systemic, inbuilt racism that disadvantages black people at every level of society from healthcare access, voting rights, economic opportunity, housing, and their interaction with law enforcement.

    These are the blunt facts. If you are black in America, you'll receive a longer federal sentence than a white person for the EXACT same crime. Black and white people use and sell illegal narcotics at about the same rate, but blacks are far more likely to be arrested for possession and dealing. And black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police. If this isn't systemic racism, then what is ?

    Let me also address some posters who are insinuating black people are more likely to be shot by police "because they disproportionately commit more homicides" - MOST deaths in the hands of police are NOT the result of cops responding to or trying to prevent a murder. In this case of George Floyd, a shopassistant claimed he used a fake note. Eric Garner was killed after being accused of selling loose cigarettes. Willie McCoy had 25 (TWENTY FIVE) bullets fired into him for the crime of...falling asleep at a Taco Bell drive-thru.

    Even if you think police officers are entitled to use force to protect their own lives - do you not think there ought to be an intermediate step between non-violent methods of restraint and the use of a lethal firearm ? Unless you're a trigger happy meathead, lethal force is only justified if there's a clear imminent threat and as a last resort. Now there ARE common sense solutions:

    A) Increase the time it takes to train a police officer. In some US states - cops spend less time in training than a barber.

    B) Place emphasis on deescalation. In Richmond, California they instituted such training and guess what ? Use of lethal force dropped and there was no increase in police fatalities.

    C) STOP transfer of surplus military equipment to police departments. Grenade launchers and armoured vehicles have no place in residential communities. Sadly, Trump's AG ended previous restrictions in 2017.

    D) Properly screen all law enforcement officials for white supremacist or any racially bigoted ideologies.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    And black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police. If this isn't systemic racism, then what is?
    Not necessarily.

    It is "systematic racism" if blacks and whites commit violent crime which makes them liable to be shot and killed by police at the same rate.

    If blacks and white committed murders at the same rate, then mathematically the number of blacks killed by whites would be the same as the number of whites killed by blacks (this is independent of their different percentages in the population).

    Instead, we have the number of blacks killed by whites to be 264 and the number of whites killed by blacks to be 576 (for 2017 the latest year I could find).

    The ratio 576/264 is 2.2.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-6.xls

    Also, if blacks and whites committed murders at the same rate, then the ratio would have been about 1:6 (their percentages of the population).

    Instead the ratio is 3263 (total murders committed by blacks) : 3252 (total murders committed by whites), or a larger ratio of about 6.

    You may consider as an alternative to "systematic racism" that blacks may be shot and killed by cops at a greater ratio of 2.5 because the number of murders they commit is greater by a ratio of 6. A cop will more likely open fire at a criminal who he believes poses a violent threat.

    Why only 2.5 and not 6? Are blacks being favored? A superficial analysis may suggest so, but the truth probably is that many black on black murders in the poor hoods don't attract the same police enforcement. The real world is complicated.

    The Minneapolis cop who killed Floyd was very obviously in the wrong and Chauvin should rightly be prosecuted for murder. However, in a country of a million cops, the actions of one cop doesn't mean that the ratio of 2.5 proves "systematic racism" in the US.

    Not inclined to reply unless I see a good numbers based analysis that contradicts my post.

    @Dios
    Last edited by Napa; 2nd June 2020 at 02:16.

  45. #45
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    America is such a huge country that you really can't paint it with a wide brush . Racism is a reality but TBH its not as bad or as in your face as in parts of Europe and bunch of Middle Eastern countries


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    America is such a huge country that you really can't paint it with a wide brush . Racism is a reality but TBH its not as bad or as in your face as in parts of Europe and bunch of Middle Eastern countries
    It doesn’t help having a racist president.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Not necessarily.

    It is "systematic racism" if blacks and whites commit violent crime which makes them liable to be shot and killed by police at the same rate.

    If blacks and white committed murders at the same rate, then mathematically the number of blacks killed by whites would be the same as the number of whites killed by blacks (this is independent of their different percentages in the population).

    Instead, we have the number of blacks killed by whites to be 264 and the number of whites killed by blacks to be 576 (for 2017 the latest year I could find).

    The ratio 576/264 is 2.2.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-6.xls

    Also, if blacks and whites committed murders at the same rate, then the ratio would have been about 1:6 (their percentages of the population).

    Instead the ratio is 3263 (total murders committed by blacks) : 3252 (total murders committed by whites), or a larger ratio of about 6.

    You may consider as an alternative to "systematic racism" that blacks may be shot and killed by cops at a greater ratio of 2.5 because the number of murders they commit is greater by a ratio of 6. A cop will more likely open fire at a criminal who he believes poses a violent threat.

    Why only 2.5 and not 6? Are blacks being favored? A superficial analysis may suggest so, but the truth probably is that many black on black murders in the poor hoods don't attract the same police enforcement. The real world is complicated.

    The Minneapolis cop who killed Floyd was very obviously in the wrong and Chauvin should rightly be prosecuted for murder. However, in a country of a million cops, the actions of one cop doesn't mean that the ratio of 2.5 proves "systematic racism" in the US.

    Not inclined to reply unless I see a good numbers based analysis that contradicts my post.

    @Dios
    If you read the very next paragraph I literally addressed this argument by stating most black deaths in the hands of police are NOT the result of cops responding to or trying to prevent a homicide. They usually involve traffic stops, drug searches or other incidents.

    If we stick to Minneapolis, the city where George Floyd was murdered, a local investigation by the Star Tribune into police killings since 2000 found no correlation between the average monthly crime rate in a neighbourhood and use of force. Police killed Jamar Clark in Near North in 2015, and Justine Damond in 2017. Near North's monthly crime rate is 15.9, Fulton is 1.6 per 1000. Across America, 2015 study by Cody Ross showed "no relationship" between county level crime rates and police killings.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0141854

    https://m.startribune.com/minneapoli...ere/435882213/

    Justin Nix, a criminologist from the University of Nebraska, in 2017 found 24% of African Americans were NOT attacking police officers when they were killed, compared to 17% of white people. That same study showed black people fatally shot by police were twice as likely as white people to be unarmed. So the data doesn't support that higher crime rates excuses heavier use of force unless one believes simply being a black male constitutes an imminent threat to a policeman's life.

    Moreover even if you argue higher crime rates merits harsher policing in black neighbourhoods, why did you choose to ignore that blacks are sentenced 20% longer than whites on average for the SAME crime, or that blacks are more likely to be arrested for drug possession and distribution when they sell and use drugs at SIMILAR rates as whites. Also, many implicit bias studies show police officers are more likely to discharge weapons in simulations if the suspect is black.

    The evidence keeps piling up in front of our eyes of systemic racism in America. I'll be happy to expand if you address all these points instead of cherrypicking.

  48. #48
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    If anyone has CNN, watch it right now!!!

    Unbelievable scenes

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Racism is a form of ignorance and backwardness. USA has some of the smartest people in the world but also have 10's of million of backward white racists in all forms of their society.

    More black people die of police force than die of diabetes. Imagine feeling you'd rather have diabetes instead of meeting a cop.

    America was built on racism, it was an industry and continues to be an industry but now in a more hidden subtle way. Blacks are used as labourers in prisons, many of them incocent of the crime they have been convicted of.

    Its not beyond control, it's a controlled system of racism.

    This is the nowhere near the worst which is yet to come.
    Looks like you know a lot about USA, can I ask you how long and where is USA you have been living ?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    If you read the very next paragraph I literally addressed this argument by stating most black deaths in the hands of police are NOT the result of cops responding to or trying to prevent a homicide. They usually involve traffic stops, drug searches or other incidents.
    You had provided individual instances, which do not prove anything "systemic".

    If we stick to Minneapolis, the city where George Floyd was murdered, a local investigation by the Star Tribune into police killings since 2000 found no correlation between the average monthly crime rate in a neighbourhood and use of force. Police killed Jamar Clark in Near North in 2015, and Justine Damond in 2017. Near North's monthly crime rate is 15.9, Fulton is 1.6 per 1000. Across America, 2015 study by Cody Ross showed "no relationship" between county level crime rates and police killings.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0141854

    https://m.startribune.com/minneapoli...ere/435882213/

    Justin Nix, a criminologist from the University of Nebraska, in 2017 found 24% of African Americans were NOT attacking police officers when they were killed, compared to 17% of white people. That same study showed black people fatally shot by police were twice as likely as white people to be unarmed. So the data doesn't support that higher crime rates excuses heavier use of force unless one believes simply being a black male constitutes an imminent threat to a policeman's life.
    I really don't want to delve deep into "academic research", I really don't have time for that. The data is sliced and diced till the result that confirms the dominant paradigm in academics is found, and then the editors are willing to publish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

    Moreover even if you argue higher crime rates merits harsher policing in black neighbourhoods, why did you choose to ignore that blacks are sentenced 20% longer than whites on average for the SAME crime, or that blacks are more likely to be arrested for drug possession and distribution when they sell and use drugs at SIMILAR rates as whites.
    There may be bias in drug sentencing, but that is not the topic of our discussion.

    Also, many implicit bias studies show police officers are more likely to discharge weapons in simulations if the suspect is black.
    If a cop was facing someone in a hood where the murder rate is 500% higher than in a suburb, will the cop be more likely to discharge his firearm? Probably. Will that be evidence of "systemic bias"? Yes, to researchers and to editors, but not to me.

    Are the larger number of shootings of blacks done by black cops in the hoods? Not something an academic will discuss.

    Because it doesn't suit his purposes, the academic will make no distinction whether the larger number of police shootings occurred in areas infested by drug gangs or not. Not something I want to waste my time refuting.

    The evidence keeps piling up in front of our eyes of systemic racism in America. I'll be happy to expand if you address all these points instead of cherrypicking.
    To "cherrypick" is to take data and give it more significance than is due. To quote aggregate stats that blacks commit more murders than whites though their numbers are one-sixth is not cherrypicking. Data manipulation and cherrypicking are the basic tools of the trade of social science research.

    There is a bias among many white and black cops. What Chauvin did is criminal and it sure looks like murder. However, to decide something is "systemic", one needs to get away from individual cases and consider all aspects of the issue, not just some aspects cherrypicked by academics.

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    Racism is definitely a problem in USA, but not worse than most other countries including Pakistan. Blacks are on the receiving end more than other non-white minorities.

    Its also sporadic, more in red states than blue states. If you are living in states like New York, New jersey, California, Massachusetts and other such states, you will not see much discrimination on racial or religious basis, people are very tolerant, probably most tolerant than anywhere in the world. That does not mean incidence like this do not happen in blue states , cases of police brutality against blacks happen every where, including NY and CA.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by moghul View Post
    Its also sporadic, more in red states than blue states. If you are living in states like New York, New jersey, California, Massachusetts and other such states, you will not see much discrimination on racial or religious basis, people are very tolerant, probably most tolerant than anywhere in the world. That does not mean incidence like this do not happen in blue states , cases of police brutality against blacks happen every where, including NY and CA.
    I have to disagree with this, because it cannot be neatly split into red vs blue states. If one had to generalize, it is more an urban vs rural split. Cities in the reddest of red states are veritable islands of calm compared to the teeming red ocean surrounding them (think Austin, Houston, San Antonio in Texas, or Atlanta in Georgia), and a few miles beyond the cities in deep blue states, you will encounter just as much bias and malice as in any deep red state (NY outside of the metro for instance).

    Admittedly, this too is a generalization, but one closer to reality than a blue vs red statewise split.


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  53. #53
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    Eager for an enemy to blame for the violent protests rocking the United States, President Donald Trump on Sunday signalled that he was preparing to label those associated with the Antifa movement as "domestic terrorists" and treat them accordingly, though legal experts say such a move would be unconstitutional and even if legal, would be hard to enforce.

    Antifa, short for anti-fascists, is not a concrete group, rather an amorphous movement. Anti-fascists of the movement tend to be grouped on the leftward fringes of the US political spectrum, many describing themselves as socialists, anarchists, communists or anti-capitalists.

    The issue Trump and his law enforcement cohorts face is how to corral adherents of a decentralised movement with no known leaders, no headquarters, and no clear ideology other than opposition to whatever its adherents see as right-wing, or fascist, movements.

    In a statement released on Sunday, US Attorney General William Barr accused "violent radical elements" of hijacking the voices of "peaceful and legitimate protests" that have popped up across the US since an unarmed Black man, George Floyd, was killed by police officers in Minnesota last week.

    Barr said these "outsiders" were pursuing their own agenda, adding that he was tasking officials with some 56 separate FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces around the country with identifying, apprehending and charging the agitators.

    "The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly," Barr said, without providing evidence for his claims.

    "Blaming anarchists and antifa, with absolutely no evidence, is a way to make what's happening seem fringe and marginal when these are popular uprisings. This is a time of mass outrage at an unjust system," Scott Crow of Austin, Texas, a spokesperson for Agency, an anarchist public relations effort, said in a release.

    Anti-fascist history

    Beyond the dubious legality of Trump's declaration - many experts said designating a domestic group as it does foreign terror organisations because of its ideology would be inherently unconstitutional - any effort to rein in Antifa advocates would face simple logistical hurdles such as where to begin.

    Other than their opposition to right-wing ideologies, there is little binding the Antifa movement's adherents together. Some focus on environmental causes or the rights of Indigenous groups, others for the rights of LGBT activists.

    While an anti-fascist movement can be traced back to Germany and Italy before the second world war, the first US group to use the word "Antifa" in its branding was the Rose City Antifa (RCA) founded in 2007 in Portland, Oregon, though many groups have held anti-fascist ideology in the US for decades without using the branding.

    RCA and other groups like it made it their goal to disrupt - violently if necessary - meetings and organisational efforts of white supremacists and their ilk.

    One such effort, in 2012, saw Antifa adherents brandishing hammers, baseball bats and police batons storm a Chicago-area restaurant and assault members of the white supremacist Illinois European Heritage Association gathered there. Five of the attackers received prison sentences for their roles in the melee.

    The election of Donald Trump in 2016 saw an increase in Antifa activity in the US, as followers became increasingly convinced that fascism and other right-wing ideologies were making new inroads in American politics. They gained particular prominence during clashes between white supremacists and their opponents in Charlottesville, Virginia, in August 2017, when a neo-Nazi rammed his car into a group of anti-racists, killing one protester.

    Antifa made headlines again during public protests that same year in Portland, Oregon, and Berkeley, California, where they smashed windows and hurled Molotov cocktails at law enforcement officers to prevent right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos from speaking.

    While anti-fascists get the most attention for their occasional violent behaviour, many adherents also advocate nonviolent means of getting their message across such as hanging posters, giving speeches and marching.

    Institutional concern

    FBI and other law enforcement officials have since 2016 voiced concerns about Antifa actors and the violence that sometimes accompanies their public appearances.

    FBI Director Christopher Wray said in congressional testimony in November 2017 that the bureau had ongoing counterterrorism investigations into people accused of committing crimes in the name of Antifa.

    The FBI, he said, was pursuing "a number of what we would call anarchist extremist investigations, where we have properly predicated subjects [people] who are motivated to commit violent criminal activity on kind of an Antifa ideology. So we have a number of active investigations in that space, all around the country."

    The language used by Wray in 2017 is similar to that used by Barr and others in the Trump orbit over the weekend in reference to the recent violence in US cities.

    On Twitter, Trump, without providing evidence, blamed the violence on "Antifa and the Radical Left," and his National Security adviser, Robert O'Brien, in a television appearance, called on the FBI to surveil and prosecute those part of the Antifa movement.

    Law enforcement officials and those who monitor anti-fascists groups say they have in recent days seen indications - including anarchist graffiti and arrests of some out-of-state protesters - that people with disparate motives may be behind some of the violence in the anti-police brutality protests. They have also blamed white supremacist groups.

    One Antifa activist group allegedly disseminated a message in a Telegram channel on Saturday that encouraged people to consider Minnesota National Guard troops "easy targets", Defense Department officials told The Associated Press news agency. The message encouraged activists to steal "kit", meaning the weapons and body armour used by the soldiers.

    Portland Antifa

    Alt-right groups hold the End Domestic Terrorism rally in Portland, Oregon, in 2019 [File: Karen Ducey/Getty Images/AFP]
    Agency, the anarchist public relations effort, said in its statement that when "the President of the United States incites people to shoot 'looters,' he is attempting to divide the country and encourage racist violence", and that the US state has the "legal monopoly on violence and are responsible for the most violence perpetrated on civilians".

    Furthermore, making the leap from prosecuting some anti-fascists for allegedly inciting violence to declaring an unorganised movement a "domestic terror" threat is a long one, according to legal experts. Doing so would require coordination across multiple federal agencies, something Trump lacks the legal authority to do.

    "Terrorism is an inherently political label, easily abused and misused," said ACLU National Security Project Director Hina Shamsi.

    Mary McCord, a former senior Justice Department official, said, "No current legal authority exists for designating domestic organisations as terrorist organisations."

    "Any attempt at such a designation would raise significant First Amendment concerns," added McCord, who previously served in the Trump administration.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...170721571.html


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  54. #54
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    Living in the US for a few decades I have got to develop friendships with people from all ethnicities and classes. The prejudice is real, but so is the concern for other people. Poverty brings all ethnicities into conflict with law enforcement, and is a major reason for a lot of crime. The media certainly encourages the growth of hate by promoting ideas like white cops have a murderous hate for blacks. In reality the vast majority of white cops are simply trying to do the best job they can do. The current trajectory of the country is not good, and there will have to be a honest reckoning for the country to get to a better place.

    Given that many South Asians chose to migrate to the West, for them to complain non-stop about the West is rather strange.

    This is my last post to this thread.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by moghul View Post
    Racism is definitely a problem in USA, but not worse than most other countries including Pakistan. Blacks are on the receiving end more than other non-white minorities.

    Its also sporadic, more in red states than blue states. If you are living in states like New York, New jersey, California, Massachusetts and other such states, you will not see much discrimination on racial or religious basis, people are very tolerant, probably most tolerant than anywhere in the world. That does not mean incidence like this do not happen in blue states , cases of police brutality against blacks happen every where, including NY and CA.
    People mistakenly compare the US with places like the Middle East.
    That is a wrong analogy. Most places, including the Middle East, China etc, do not hold themselves as the beacon of democracy.... Truth, justice, liberties etc etc...
    Nor do they bomb other countries and impose their way of life.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    . In reality the vast majority of white cops are simply trying to do the best job they can do.
    "Given that many South Asians chose to migrate to the West, for them to complain non-stop about the West is rather strange."

    This is my last post to this thread.
    Just as much of an American as anyone else so what's the problem in criticizing especially when we suffer from this "issue" too Why can't we complain? It's our right to complain
    Including the guys in pak too cause they face similar things if they go to airports especially in US

    and white cops are sure ah trying to do a good jobs that's why all the videos every week that's that

    whenever you see especially "white" cops they treat you like criminal for some reason, always heavy handed, you ride with your white friend there's a clear difference in the way they treat other minorities, all of the surveillance of the mosques almost every mosque at some point in tri-state area I am sure was subject to surveillance, yes and setting up people by "talking or encouraging a suspect to commit a crime by informants" there was a proper strategy by Chicago police to leave a truck unlocked in a hood put a camera let the kids loot the truck and than round em up (this is from 2010s) , cops are paranoid ah when they deal with minorities unlike whites, trigger happy when dealing with minorities

    Sure the good Lord "cops" should be worshipped not criticized especially by these "strange South Asian peasant, immigrants"

  57. #57
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    From my own limited experience, I think there is undeniable racism in law enforcement in the US. I have only been to US once in my life, with my family for a holiday, and was stopped by border control. The plane was full of white people and to the surprise of no one, we were the only ones stopped.

    After hours of questioning and border control doing "checks" on me and my brother (including taking details of our social media accounts!), we were eventually let go.

    I have to say once we were in, we found the American people to be incredibly hospitable, kind and friendly. Again I'm speaking from limited experience, but I don't think normal everyday people are racists, especially in the cities.

    Having said all that, I think history has shown that America has some deep routed issues going back to the civil rights movement which remain unresolved today. Trump is a known racist, with his Muslim ban etc, and he is exactly the wrong person to be in charge right now.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You had provided individual instances, which do not prove anything "systemic".



    I really don't want to delve deep into "academic research", I really don't have time for that. The data is sliced and diced till the result that confirms the dominant paradigm in academics is found, and then the editors are willing to publish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis



    There may be bias in drug sentencing, but that is not the topic of our discussion.



    If a cop was facing someone in a hood where the murder rate is 500% higher than in a suburb, will the cop be more likely to discharge his firearm? Probably. Will that be evidence of "systemic bias"? Yes, to researchers and to editors, but not to me.

    Are the larger number of shootings of blacks done by black cops in the hoods? Not something an academic will discuss.

    Because it doesn't suit his purposes, the academic will make no distinction whether the larger number of police shootings occurred in areas infested by drug gangs or not. Not something I want to waste my time refuting.



    To "cherrypick" is to take data and give it more significance than is due. To quote aggregate stats that blacks commit more murders than whites though their numbers are one-sixth is not cherrypicking. Data manipulation and cherrypicking are the basic tools of the trade of social science research.

    There is a bias among many white and black cops. What Chauvin did is criminal and it sure looks like murder. However, to decide something is "systemic", one needs to get away from individual cases and consider all aspects of the issue, not just some aspects cherrypicked by academics.
    So you ask for a numbers based analysis which is given, but academics are not be trusted, the media is to blame for racism and you still don't wish to address obvious racial biases in the judicial system which present a clear cut case for systemic racism.

    Okay good day to you sir. I hope the stable genius steps out of his bunker soon.

  59. #59
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    UN human rights chief: 'Endemic inequalities' exposed

    UN human rights chief Michelle Bachelet said on Tuesday that the Covid-19 pandemic and protests over George Floyd's death in police custody are illustrating historic racial inequalities.

    "This virus is exposing endemic inequalities that have too long been ignored," Bachelet said in a statement.

    "In the United States, protests triggered by the killing of George Floyd are highlighting not only police violence against people of colour, but also inequalities in health, education, employment and endemic racial discrimination."


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  60. #60
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    People from Pakistan and particularly India have no right to talk about racism in any other country. Forget about Middle East, they are ruled by brutal dictators but Pak-India are not.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman View Post
    From my own limited experience, I think there is undeniable racism in law enforcement in the US. I have only been to US once in my life, with my family for a holiday, and was stopped by border control. The plane was full of white people and to the surprise of no one, we were the only ones stopped.

    After hours of questioning and border control doing "checks" on me and my brother (including taking details of our social media accounts!), we were eventually let go.

    I have to say once we were in, we found the American people to be incredibly hospitable, kind and friendly. Again I'm speaking from limited experience, but I don't think normal everyday people are racists, especially in the cities.

    Having said all that, I think history has shown that America has some deep routed issues going back to the civil rights movement which remain unresolved today. Trump is a known racist, with his Muslim ban etc, and he is exactly the wrong person to be in charge right now.
    I agree with you, police and other law enforcement agencies in US have definite issues with racism. But after living in US for long time including 2 years spent in a rural community in deep south in dark red states and have visited many other countries, I can tell with my experience that taken together, USA is the most tolerant country in the world.

    Racism is not limited to white people only, as an ethnic group, studies have shown blacks are the most racist group in USA, , that too not towards white people but against non-whites , particularly against brown people.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by moghul View Post
    I agree with you, police and other law enforcement agencies in US have definite issues with racism. But after living in US for long time including 2 years spent in a rural community in deep south in dark red states and have visited many other countries, I can tell with my experience that taken together, USA is the most tolerant country in the world.

    Racism is not limited to white people only, as an ethnic group, studies have shown blacks are the most racist group in USA, , that too not towards white people but against non-whites , particularly against brown people.
    Very accurate description. Would agree. Been here 30 years I think. Close to 30

  63. #63
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    Having said that there trump has brought out the racists in the open .

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostalgic View Post
    I have to disagree with this, because it cannot be neatly split into red vs blue states. If one had to generalize, it is more an urban vs rural split. Cities in the reddest of red states are veritable islands of calm compared to the teeming red ocean surrounding them (think Austin, Houston, San Antonio in Texas, or Atlanta in Georgia), and a few miles beyond the cities in deep blue states, you will encounter just as much bias and malice as in any deep red state (NY outside of the metro for instance).

    Admittedly, this too is a generalization, but one closer to reality than a blue vs red statewise split.
    This .Its more a rural v Urban divide . Its always been like that .


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    It doesnít help having a racist president.
    He is not Racist. He just doesnt care. There is a difference

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeetlodil View Post
    He is not Racist. He just doesnt care. There is a difference
    Trump is racist. He has normalized racism and you are all seeing the result. If you believe he is not racist, I would say you are very very naive.

    His voter base is 80% racist whites without college degrees. The reason he didnt come out and make a statement for peace and calm and show solidarity with the protestors (not rioters, protestors) is because he knows he will lose his voter base if he did so. Instead he chose to tear gar the protestors (not rioters) in a public area, just so he could do his studly walk to the church where he could do a photo op holding a Bible in his hand. HAHAH

    We are seeing a systematic takedown and downfall of American society by racist, those people who want the country to continue to linger in its age old class conflicts, and status quo of poor minority conditions and race division. Obama's win was a shock to their system and they are fighting back with Trump.

    They do not want black and latinos to fight back or have their population increase. They dont want them to prosper. Heck they dont want anybody to prosper except whites. Thats the sad truth.

    There are good people, a lot of them on the other side and they are fighting to save the country. May God bless them.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by moghul View Post
    I agree with you, police and other law enforcement agencies in US have definite issues with racism. But after living in US for long time including 2 years spent in a rural community in deep south in dark red states and have visited many other countries, I can tell with my experience that taken together, USA is the most tolerant country in the world.

    Racism is not limited to white people only, as an ethnic group, studies have shown blacks are the most racist group in USA, , that too not towards white people but against non-whites , particularly against brown people.
    I am not sure about the most tolerant country in the world - such a country would never elect a hard right racist in Trump. This indicates that the country is full of a lot of people who think racist and discriminatory ideology is acceptable. But I agree with you that in general, the cities are full of good people and in a country the size of America, I imagine a lot of these racists live in the rural areas.

    If anything, during my time in America I was constantly surprised at just how nice everyone was. One day I was in Tampa and needed to grab a quick bite to eat. I couldn't go very far as I had booked an activity and had very little time to get there. I walked into the only food shop around, which had a sign up front with some profanity about protecting gun rights. As I walked in, I saw the owner who looked like a typical red neck. Immediately I started questioning if I should leave the shop. However I got talking with the owner and he was an absolute gent. A real nice guy. And he made me an absolutely delicious buggette that was tastier than anything I've ever had from Pret, Starbucks etc. He even let me use the staff bathroom!

    The point is that I had really great time in America and felt totally safe and relaxed the whole time. The one and only bad experience from the whole trip started and ended with the border force on arrival, but once those few bad hours were over, I had no complaints. So are Americans as a population racist? The answer in my opinon is no.

    As for your comments on black people, I certainly don't accept what you are saying. Please point to the exact studies you are referring to as I highly doubt that any credible study could reach such a conclusion. There is NO DOUBT that black people in America are overwhelmingly the ones who have suffered decades of discrimination. Any suggestion that the opposite is true simply isn't credible.

  68. #68
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    Americans in general are not racist ... the most common form I've seen is the "Karen".

    Re cops and violence that is a chicken and the egg problem.

    American cops are violent but the criminals they face are also more violent and dangerous than anywhere else (partly due to amount of guns around).

    Strong policing is required and with that it some times goes over the top.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 161 View Post
    Americans in general are not racist ... the most common form I've seen is the "Karen".

    Re cops and violence that is a chicken and the egg problem.

    American cops are violent but the criminals they face are also more violent and dangerous than anywhere else (partly due to amount of guns around).

    Strong policing is required and with that it some times goes over the top.
    Very sensible post.

    This pretty much sums up the situation.

    We have to look at both sides. There are bad apples on both sides.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  70. #70
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    Scrap the 2nd amendment, reform the police. These are the immediate measures that need to be taken. The cycle of violence will come down appreciably. There are greater issues of black emancipation etc. but those require long term planning.

    Right to bear arms should not be a constitutional right for every individual.

  71. #71
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    UK also not immune to this it seems!

    ==

    A man who was tasered in the throat in Birmingham says he believes he was targeted by police because he is black.

    The incident is one of six cases being investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) into alleged excessive use of force on black men and a teenager in the last four months.

    Trevaile Wyse, 30, said he had just arrived home from work in February when there was a car crash in the street outside his house. He went out to see what had happened and found himself targeted by police officers.

    "The police officer had chased some lads off down the road and he turned around with his Taser drawn and ran back up the road and told me to get on the ground.

    "I refused to get on the ground because there was no reason for me to get on the ground.

    "And then he just fired the Taser which hit me in the throat."

    He believes there's only one reason he was targeted.

    "By that specific officer I personally believe it was because I was black. There could have been no other reason for it. He was fixated on me.

    "There were other people around, you know, standing next to me. He didn't order them to get on the ground. I believe it's because I was black."

    The incident was captured on a mobile phone. Footage of a separate incident involving West Midlands Police officers shows a black man being slammed into the bonnet of a police car and punched three times.

    The IOPC are also looking at a stop-and-search of a 15-year-old, where the boy was kicked and hit and an incident where a man's ankle was fractured.

    The chief constable of West Midlands Police, Dave Thompson, has said the independent investigation into six cases should give the community confidence, but writing on a blog following the death of George Floyd in the US, he said: "I think this has added to tensions we are now policing here.

    "Young black people across the West Midlands will rightly feel strongly about these events and the fact they are in the US makes no difference.

    "They affect how policing is seen on our streets."

    Assistant chief constable Matt Ward told Sky News he is concerned that he has colleagues in the force who treat black people differently when they are arresting.

    "If there are those colleagues I want them out of this organisation," he said.

    "I don't want to be part of an organisation that they're a part of and the vast majority of officers and staff at West Midlands police don't want them to be a part of this organisation either."

    People in Birmingham held a demonstration to show their anger over the death of George Floyd, the 46-year-old who died after being restrained by police in Minneapolis.

    Desmond Jaddoo, a community leader in the city, said there is a danger trust in police here has been damaged too.

    "Policing is a relationship between the police, in terms of policing by consent and the community," he said.

    "Trust and confidence is absolutely crucial and I think trust and confidence is at its lowest right now and within this current climate what's happening across in America is only exacerbating community relations."

    The IOPC confirmed that four of the six incidents being investigated in Birmingham involve one officer who has been suspended by West Midlands Police.

    Two of the investigations under way are scrutinising the actions of officers who were in supervisory roles when those incidents took place.

    The West Midlands regional director for the IOPC Derrick Campbell said: "I would like to reassure communities in the West Midlands that full, fair and thorough independent investigations are under way into all of these incidents and the conduct matters brought to our attention by the force."

    https://news.sky.com/story/birmingha...black-11999510


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  72. #72
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    At a press conference in Washington on Thursday, Attorney General William Barr said federal law enforcement officers had gathered intelligence that extremist groups including Antifa had “hijacked” peaceful protests over the death of George Floyd, seeking to incite violence and destruction.

    “We have evidence,” Barr said, “that Antifa and other similar extremist groups, as well as actors of a variety of different political persuasions, have been involved in instigating and participating in the violent activity.”

    Last week, Donald Trump sought to designate Antifa, an amorphous group name for the antifascist movement, a terrorist organization.

    Barr added: “We are also seeing foreign actors playing all sides to exacerbate the violence.”

    Pressed by a reporter about why he mentioned Antifa as opposed to “boogaloo” or other far-right extremist elements, Barr said there was a “witches brew a lot of different extremist organizations trying to exploit the protests.”

    Federal forces have taken over Washington’s response to the unrest, under Barr’s direction. All of the justice department components – including the FBI, the US Marshals, the Bureau of Prisons, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Drug Enforcement Administration – have been tapped to respond to violence and looting.

    Questions have been raised about such officers appearing in public – and being used to control the public – without identifying marks or insignia on their uniforms.

    In total, Barr said federal officials made 51 arrests for crimes connected to “violent rioting”.

    The heads of each bureau provided updates. Here are the highlights:

    Barr said the justice department was conducting a “parallel and independent” investigation in possible federal civil rights violations.
    FBI director Christopher Wray said the agency had collected evidence that Antifa and “other agitators” were behind some of the violence.
    Director of US Marshals Donald Washington said there had been damage and vandalism to 21 federal courthouses in 15 states and DC, as well as damage and vandalism to "many other federal properties”.

    Acting ATF director Regina Lombardo said her agents had responded to “shootings, burglaries, arson, bombings, especially destructive devices such as a molotov cocktail.”

    BOP director Michael Carvajal said officers were not told to not identify themselves. He said they normally operate only with their own institutions and therefore don’t need to identify themselves. He added that he probably should have considered marking the officers when they were deployed outside the White House.


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  73. #73
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    The recent killings of innocent black men would indicate so. But what we have to realise is that America was built on the foundations of racism and oppression.

    I thought South Africa was bad with the apartheid system but when you look at the history of the United States, its a whole new level of prejudice and institutional racism.

    What we're seeing now is actually no surprise and hasn't just occurred out of the blue due to a recent event. The event was just another trigger. It is a result of 400 years of history steeped in oppression and the fight against it.

  74. #74
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    Sixteen-year-old American tennis player Coco Gauff has given an emotional speech at a Black Lives Matter protest saying she "demands change now".

    Gauff, one of the sport's rising stars, urged people to vote and speak out against racism, adding: "If you are choosing silence, you are choosing the side of the oppressor."

    Protests have been held across the United States and globally since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

    Gauff has repeatedly spoken out since.

    Speaking in her hometown of Delray Beach, Florida, Gauff said it is "sad" she was protesting against the "same thing" her grandmother did "50-plus years ago".

    "We must first love each other, no matter what," Gauff added.

    "I have spent all week having tough conversations and trying to educate my non-black friends about how they can help the movement.

    "Second, we need to take action.

    "I am not of the age to vote - it is in your hands to vote for my future, my brothers' future and for your future so that is one way to make change.

    "Third, you need to use your voice no matter how big or small your platform is, you need to use your voice.

    "I saw a Dr [Martin Luther] King quote that said the silence of the good people is worse than the brutality of the bad people."

    She added: "It breaks my heart because I'm fighting for the future for my brothers. I'm fighting for the future of my future kids. I'm fighting for the future of my future grandchildren."

    Gauff rose to fame last year when she beat five-time champion Venus Williams at Wimbledon aged 15 in a run to the fourth round.


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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeetlodil View Post
    He is not Racist. He just doesnt care. There is a difference
    He is a racist.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    I have seen it. It is sad and that police officer should receive a long prison sentence. He should be locked up for the rest of his life.

    However, debating this type of thing is useless. Do you really think people will stop being racists just because a person died?

    Besides, like I mentioned, you can find racists from all races.
    The problem is not with individuals being racist. The problem is with the system being racist.

    It seems to me that you are in fact unaware and ignorant of the race situation in the United States, and I will not fault you for that. Let me however take the time to educate you.

    1. African Americans were brought to this country as SLAVES. They did not come to this country on the base of education or skill set, they were brought to this country as slaves, as the property of the white man. It was not until 1863 that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves (only to cripple the south during the Civil War) and even after that point Black people faced lynching and LEGAL discrimination until 1963.

    2. Due to the LEGAL segregation and threats of lynching and discrimination this FORCED the African Americans into their own urban ghettos, which were often poverty stricken, lacking education. Imagine how difficult it is to be make a change in your community when many colleges will reject you if you're black, and many employers will simply not hire you if you're black.

    3. Understand that Black people make up 80% of the federal prison population while only representing 13% of the countries population. Something must be wrong about that right? Or are black people just inherently more likely to commit crimes than white or brown people? Let me tell you that in the 1970s, President Richard Nixon launched something called the war on drugs, which saw a disproportionate amount of black people end up in jail over drug offenses. How did the drugs end up in the neighborhoods? The CIA saw an opportunity for cheap, powdered cocaine to be funneled into South Central Los Angeles bin an attempt increase funding for the contra army in Nicaragua. Now you have an influx of people living in your ghettos, with little to no access to education, lack of opportunity and so much more.

    Over decades this has its effects and now we culminate to where we are today. This is about a racist SYSTEM. Not about racist individuals. I hope this clears up any misconceptions you may have.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    There are two solutions I can think of:

    Option #1: Give American cops comprehensive body armors so that they don't worry about being injured/killed.

    Option #2: Gradually replace human cops with robots (may take a while to implement this).

    I have never faced racism from cops. Just play it cool and things should be fine.



    You aren't black. Why would you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hashimafzal View Post
    The problem is not with individuals being racist. The problem is with the system being racist.

    It seems to me that you are in fact unaware and ignorant of the race situation in the United States, and I will not fault you for that. Let me however take the time to educate you.

    1. African Americans were brought to this country as SLAVES. They did not come to this country on the base of education or skill set, they were brought to this country as slaves, as the property of the white man. It was not until 1863 that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves (only to cripple the south during the Civil War) and even after that point Black people faced lynching and LEGAL discrimination until 1963.

    2. Due to the LEGAL segregation and threats of lynching and discrimination this FORCED the African Americans into their own urban ghettos, which were often poverty stricken, lacking education. Imagine how difficult it is to be make a change in your community when many colleges will reject you if you're black, and many employers will simply not hire you if you're black.

    3. Understand that Black people make up 80% of the federal prison population while only representing 13% of the countries population. Something must be wrong about that right? Or are black people just inherently more likely to commit crimes than white or brown people? Let me tell you that in the 1970s, President Richard Nixon launched something called the war on drugs, which saw a disproportionate amount of black people end up in jail over drug offenses. How did the drugs end up in the neighborhoods? The CIA saw an opportunity for cheap, powdered cocaine to be funneled into South Central Los Angeles bin an attempt increase funding for the contra army in Nicaragua. Now you have an influx of people living in your ghettos, with little to no access to education, lack of opportunity and so much more.

    Over decades this has its effects and now we culminate to where we are today. This is about a racist SYSTEM. Not about racist individuals. I hope this clears up any misconceptions you may have.
    Top post. Very well written.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hashimafzal View Post
    The problem is not with individuals being racist. The problem is with the system being racist.

    It seems to me that you are in fact unaware and ignorant of the race situation in the United States, and I will not fault you for that. Let me however take the time to educate you.

    1. African Americans were brought to this country as SLAVES. They did not come to this country on the base of education or skill set, they were brought to this country as slaves, as the property of the white man. It was not until 1863 that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves (only to cripple the south during the Civil War) and even after that point Black people faced lynching and LEGAL discrimination until 1963.

    2. Due to the LEGAL segregation and threats of lynching and discrimination this FORCED the African Americans into their own urban ghettos, which were often poverty stricken, lacking education. Imagine how difficult it is to be make a change in your community when many colleges will reject you if you're black, and many employers will simply not hire you if you're black.

    3. Understand that Black people make up 80% of the federal prison population while only representing 13% of the countries population. Something must be wrong about that right? Or are black people just inherently more likely to commit crimes than white or brown people? Let me tell you that in the 1970s, President Richard Nixon launched something called the war on drugs, which saw a disproportionate amount of black people end up in jail over drug offenses. How did the drugs end up in the neighborhoods? The CIA saw an opportunity for cheap, powdered cocaine to be funneled into South Central Los Angeles bin an attempt increase funding for the contra army in Nicaragua. Now you have an influx of people living in your ghettos, with little to no access to education, lack of opportunity and so much more.

    Over decades this has its effects and now we culminate to where we are today. This is about a racist SYSTEM. Not about racist individuals. I hope this clears up any misconceptions you may have.
    Good post.

    I agree with most things you said but I disagree with system being racist. System was racist in the past but not anymore. Black folks can now go to college and work. There are black people in police force too.

    I would love to see black people getting more justice but I think BLM's approach is counterproductive.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 5th June 2020 at 03:31.


    Bangladeshi Fan

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    Several videos of police brutality have emerged during protests over the death of African American George Floyd.

    In Buffalo, New York State, two officers were suspended after they were seen shoving an elderly white man to the ground.

    And in New York City, police were captured on video roughly handling demonstrators as they ran away.

    The reports come hours after a memorial for Floyd in Minneapolis, the city where he died at the hands of police.

    His killing, also captured on video, has caused outrage and sparked a wave of protests against racial discrimination and police treatment of African Americans in cities across the US and the world.

    The vast majority of demonstrations over the past eight days have been peaceful but some have descended into violence and rioting, with curfews imposed in a number of cities.


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