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  1. #1
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    Pakistani missiles named after Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Babur and Abdali

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/w...tani-missiles/

    Ghaznavi Missiles: Ghaznavi is a surface-to-surface short range ballistic missile named after Mahmud Ghaznavi, an 11th century Persian invader of Turkic origin who was the ruler of the Ghaznavid Empire, which consisted of modern day Pakistan, Afghanistan and eastern Iran. During his rule, the Mahmud of Ghazni invaded India 17 times and attained notoriety for destroying and looting the Somnath Temple (revered by Hindus).

    Ghauri Missile: This series of surface-to-surface ballistic missiles is named after the Mohammad of Ghor, a 12th century ruler of Afghan Ghurid Empire, who attacked and defeated a Hindu ruler Prithiviraj Chauhan in 1192. Later, one of his slaves, Qutab-ud-din Aibak went on to conquer North and Central Indian territories and founded the Delhi Sultanate, the first Islamic empire in India with Delhi as its capital.

    Babur Missile: A medium range subsonic cruise missile, it was named after Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, a Chagtai Turk from Ferghana valley in Central Asia, who dethroned the Afghan Lodi dynasty ruling India in 1526. Babur established the Mughal Empire in India and became Indiaís first Mughal emperor.

    Abdali Missile: This short-range supersonic ballistic missile is named after Ahmed Shah Abdali, an 18th century Afghan king who is also founder of the modern state of Afghanistan. By mid 18th century, the Mughal Empire had been severely weakened and Delhi began to be dominated by the Maratha Empire. In 1761, Ahmed Shah Abdali declared war on the Maratha Empire (which ruled Central India), known as the third battle of Panipat in which the Maratha Army was routed. He is He is also known for the holocaust his army carried out on the followers of Sikh faith. Between 1748 and 1765, Abdali invaded India 7 times and is also known for the humiliation he brought to the then Mughal dynasty.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asi...20of%20a%20war.

  2. #2
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    Should we approve of glorifying the muslim rulers and warriors in sub-continent in this way and name missiles after them?

    I think there is nothing wrong with idolising them. It is our way of showing the hindutvas the middle finger.

  3. #3
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    Nothing wrong with it.

    Abdali is a Pashtun - The majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan. This does not include the people of pashtun descent, such as Punjabi pathans, Sindhi pathans, Urdu speaking pathans.

    Ghorid Empire was a predecessor to the Delhi Sultanate which was a predecessor to the Mughals.

    For subcontinent Muslims, our culture is a result of those empires, which combined Persian culture with the local Indian culture. From our architecture, language, cuisine, religion, music, poetry, clothing, etc, is all influenced by the Indo-Persian culture.

    Also this empire included all of Pakistan, and Ghori is buried in Pakistan.

    Ghaznavid Empire - also included most of Pakistan, and they had their capital at Lahore briefly. Some sources say that the first form of Urdu began as a result of this empire.


    With that said they were not hero's. But they were also not villains. They were doing what everyone else on Planet Earth was doing by conquering land. So no issues with those names.

    However the biggest irony is why do Right wing Indians, who claim that Afghanistan was part of Akhand Bharat, consider those 3 men as invaders. They should simply view them as Indians. So same way they have no issue with Mauryan, Gupta's, Vijayanagar empires conquering different parts of South Asia, and looting and killing while doing so, they should view these empires the same way.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by junoon View Post
    Should we approve of glorifying the muslim rulers and warriors in sub-continent in this way and name missiles after them?

    I think there is nothing wrong with idolising them. It is our way of showing the hindutvas the middle finger.
    Fair enough.

    Just don't whine when you eventually get called on for having an identity crisis for glorifying Afghans, Persians and Uzbeks.

  5. #5
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    Their country, they can name their missiles whatever they want.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn't arrived yet: Viv Richards

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    Nothing wrong with it.
    I think the distasteful part comes from naming a missile. And I too find this bit offensive. For all practical purposes, Pakistan's missiles are pointed mostly at India.

    So the insinuation as interpreted by Indians is - we Pakistanis are descended from these folks and their conquests. They attacked Hindu kings most famously (though some of them killed smaller Muslim kings too). We look at India as Hindus mostly. Our ancestors screwed your ancestors. Hahaha, so now our missiles are going to screw you again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    However the biggest irony is why do Right wing Indians, who claim that Afghanistan was part of Akhand Bharat, consider those 3 men as invaders. They should simply view them as Indians. So same way they have no issue with Mauryan, Gupta's, Vijayanagar empires conquering different parts of South Asia, and looting and killing while doing so, they should view these empires the same way.
    BJP-influenced Indians are quite confused. They tomtom Saudi Arabia or whoever gave Modi a medal. They love Afghanistan because they think they're Pakistan's enemy. They love Donald Trump cuz they think he hates Muslims. Yet cry about Christian missionaries even as Trump wears his religion on his sleeve. There is no meaning often to the arguments made.

  7. #7
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    No big deal. Progressives in Pakistan should focus on real issues like unemployment and poverty not "bUt iT's KHudA hAfiZ nUt Allah hAfIz"

  8. #8
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    Anyways, these missiles are meant to be kept in a cupboard, nothing else. Same with Indian missiles.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn't arrived yet: Viv Richards

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by junoon View Post
    Should we approve of glorifying the muslim rulers and warriors in sub-continent in this way and name missiles after them?

    I think there is nothing wrong with idolising them. It is our way of showing the hindutvas the middle finger.
    As a nation, we have severe identity crisis. We have forgotten the real history of our region and have identified ourselves with foreign invaders who plundered the subcontinent.

    That is why we are overly impressed with Arabs and try to associate ourselves with their achievements. These days, we are obsessed with the Turks and do bhangra over Ertugrul, as if we have anything to do with what the Ottomans achieved.

    It is not entirely the fault of the public because it is state policy. We have not promoted our culture and history and have instead chosen to identify ourselves with religion only.

    Yes religion is a massive influencer when it comes to culture and heritage, but we have gone a step farther and have decided to source our culture from religion.

  10. #10
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    I'm surprised Pakistan doesn't have a missile named after Bin Qasim.

    I mean he is held in high regards for bringing Islam to the subcontinent by most modern day desi Muslims. So what went wrong there ? Was he not the warrior type like the Ghoris and Abdalis ?

  11. #11
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    Islam negates ethnicity and regionalism. Therefore, Pakistanis own every prominent Muslim personality. From Tariq bin Zayad to Tipu Sultan, anyone can have the honour to be name bearers of our missiles.

    Lately, we have been naming missiles on Quranic terms such as Ababeel and Raad.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    I'm surprised Pakistan doesn't have a missile named after Bin Qasim.

    I mean he is held in high regards for bringing Islam to the subcontinent by most modern day desi Muslims. So what went wrong there ? Was he not the warrior type like the Ghoris and Abdalis ?
    Because Bin Qasim never attacked India. Bin Qasimís conquest was limited to Sindh.
    Ghori, Abdali, Mahmoud of Ghazni went on to attack India.

    Iím more surprised why we havenít named any missiles Timur considering that his raids in India were the most devastating one.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    Nothing wrong with it.

    Abdali is a Pashtun - The majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan. This does not include the people of pashtun descent, such as Punjabi pathans, Sindhi pathans, Urdu speaking pathans.

    Ghorid Empire was a predecessor to the Delhi Sultanate which was a predecessor to the Mughals.

    For subcontinent Muslims, our culture is a result of those empires, which combined Persian culture with the local Indian culture. From our architecture, language, cuisine, religion, music, poetry, clothing, etc, is all influenced by the Indo-Persian culture.

    Also this empire included all of Pakistan, and Ghori is buried in Pakistan.

    Ghaznavid Empire - also included most of Pakistan, and they had their capital at Lahore briefly. Some sources say that the first form of Urdu began as a result of this empire.


    With that said they were not hero's. But they were also not villains. They were doing what everyone else on Planet Earth was doing by conquering land. So no issues with those names.

    However the biggest irony is why do Right wing Indians, who claim that Afghanistan was part of Akhand Bharat, consider those 3 men as invaders. They should simply view them as Indians. So same way they have no issue with Mauryan, Gupta's, Vijayanagar empires conquering different parts of South Asia, and looting and killing while doing so, they should view these empires the same way.
    Thanks for the history lesson but Pakistan is majorly run by Punjabis. Punjab and Sindh consisting of Mohajir community and Sindhis pretty much are the back bone of Pakistan economy. None of the 3 communities mentioned have anything to do with Ghori,Ghaznavi. In fact they have Hindu ancestry.

    Your Army Chief has a Hindu surname for gods sake

    In fact if any all these ďwarriorsĒ plundered Punjab and Sindh back in the day which makes it even more ironical.

    If this is a dedication to the Pashtun community may be you guys need to treat them better or else there wouldnít be an uprising.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamM97 View Post
    Because Bin Qasim never attacked India. Bin Qasimís conquest was limited to Sindh.
    Ghori, Abdali, Mahmoud of Ghazni went on to attack India.

    Iím more surprised why we havenít named any missiles Timur considering that his raids in India were the most devastating one.
    Didnít Timur have to pass through current day Pakistan to reach India. Itís not like he was staying in a bed and breakfast in the modern day Pakistani areas before he launched out on Delhi.

  15. #15
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    Ghori Ghaznivi are heroes but Shakeel Afridi who helped kill OBL one of the biggest terrorists on earth is languishing in a jail somewhere.

    Look I am not repeating that for any point scoring but how do people not see hypocrisy here.

    There is nothing wrong in being proud of your religion. Religion and culture are 2 different things. You follow Islam to reach god, your culture is your heritage and ancestry. How is it so difficult for people to separate the 2.

    May be itís different in Pakistan. You donít see Indians embracing the records of Murali and Chanderpaul because they are practicing Hindus because we view them as foreigners.

  16. #16
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    We could name them Tom and Jerry it won't make them any less potent


    Besides our most dangerous missiles are called Shaheen (eagle) and Ababeel (type of bird with reference in the Quran)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Ghori Ghaznivi are heroes but Shakeel Afridi who helped kill OBL one of the biggest terrorists on earth is languishing in a jail somewhere.

    Look I am not repeating that for any point scoring but how do people not see hypocrisy here.

    There is nothing wrong in being proud of your religion. Religion and culture are 2 different things. You follow Islam to reach god, your culture is your heritage and ancestry. How is it so difficult for people to separate the 2.

    May be it’s different in Pakistan. You don’t see Indians embracing the records of Murali and Chanderpaul because they are practicing Hindus because we view them as foreigners.
    Hinduism is different than Islam. You can't simply generalize the meaning religion has for you onto everybody else.

    In Islam there is a strong concept of brotherhood based on religious grounds as religions provides a basic code of morality.

    Best demonstration of this brotherhood can be seen during pilgrimage to mecca where you have Arab people, people of African descent, people of South-East Asian, South Asian and European descent all standing side by side and performing the same rituals. For an outsider it is a difficult thing to understand, no doubt.

    Now secularism might suggest an alternative global brotherhood based on humanity but this brotherhood only exists as a nice idea and is yet to be seen practically.

    Who is to decide that ethnic identity should be preferred over religious identity?

    Religion and culture might be two different things for you but for Muslims and based on practices of Islam there is a strong link between the two, while some local variations do exist. I as a brown pakistani guy find it not difficult at all to connect with a newly met European Muslim from Balkan, since due to our mutual religious backgrounds we do share many common cultural aspects.

    This may be difficult for you to understand, since you may never have experienced such an international religious bond. After all Hinduism for an overwhelming part is limited to India and the few foreigner who are interested in it only have a very limited understanding of it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Thanks for the history lesson but Pakistan is majorly run by Punjabis. Punjab and Sindh consisting of Mohajir community and Sindhis pretty much are the back bone of Pakistan economy. None of the 3 communities mentioned have anything to do with Ghori,Ghaznavi. In fact they have Hindu ancestry.

    Your Army Chief has a Hindu surname for gods sake

    In fact if any all these “warriors” plundered Punjab and Sindh back in the day which makes it even more ironical.

    If this is a dedication to the Pashtun community may be you guys need to treat them better or else there wouldn’t be an uprising.
    Hinduism and "Hindu" as a general religious term was coined by British.

    Surnames like Bajwa, Gujjar, Jat are not Hindu names.

    They are pre-islamic yes but you can't call them "Hindu names" in religious sense.

  19. #19
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    Beggars have no choice as the saying goes as our nuclear program is funded by arabs money. Infact the whole country is being run on foreign aid so really we have no freedom to name our missiles after Dr.abdus salam the only noble prize laureate. or some other prominent figure. It is sad state of affairs indeed that we can not even go Pakistani when it comes to such things.

    I hope they do not go kaputt (as the German says )when the real time comes and they take off when it matters.

    Personally, I feel like India and Pakistan will progress much faster if they become more friends instead of enemies this way they can feed their poor janta instead of spending money on military jets that they may never use them in a real life scenario.

    It makes me sad that even a dog in Germany has better living standards than a poor person either in India or Pakistan.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    Hinduism is different than Islam. You can't simply generalize the meaning religion has for you onto everybody else.

    In Islam there is a strong concept of brotherhood based on religious grounds as religions provides a basic code of morality.

    Best demonstration of this brotherhood can be seen during pilgrimage to mecca where you have Arab people, people of African descent, people of South-East Asian, South Asian and European descent all standing side by side and performing the same rituals. For an outsider it is a difficult thing to understand, no doubt.

    Now secularism might suggest an alternative global brotherhood based on humanity but this brotherhood only exists as a nice idea and is yet to be seen practically.

    Who is to decide that ethnic identity should be preferred over religious identity?

    Religion and culture might be two different things for you but for Muslims and based on practices of Islam there is a strong link between the two, while some local variations do exist. I as a brown pakistani guy find it not difficult at all to connect with a newly met European Muslim from Balkan, since due to our mutual religious backgrounds we do share many common cultural aspects.

    This may be difficult for you to understand, since you may never have experienced such an international religious bond. After all Hinduism for an overwhelming part is limited to India and the few foreigner who are interested in it only have a very limited understanding of it.
    There is nothing complex about universal humanity. You are misunderstanding the message of brotherhood in Islam. It doesnít translate to only Muslims are your brothers and everyone else useless. No religion or great messengers would ever say that.

    Now thatís very foundational principle not different from any other religious tenets.

    Now coming to this overwhelming bond you speak of, you see Malaysians,Indonesians all retain their Pre-islamic culture, so do Arabs,Turks etc or even the less conservative Iranians and Pakistanis.

    Why did Pakistan have to involve themselves in Afghanistan? Why did Bangladesh happen? Why did Middle East have a conflict with Iraq?

    Because at the end of the day culture trumps everything else. Thatís how important culture is for example: 2 of the biggest conflicts in sc were fought on culture be it LTTE or 1971.

    As I said religion is purely a spiritual pursuit to make yourself a better person. It cannot be a identity and never has been as you can see from conflicts in islamic countries.

    It is the culture which defines who you are, how you look,your hair, your eyes, your cuisine, etc etc etc.

    The basic summary is: if you donít care for your own culture, you will he left with no identity.


  21. #21
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    Half of the battle is already won. Hindus fear these names.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post

    However the biggest irony is why do Right wing Indians, who claim that Afghanistan was part of Akhand Bharat, consider those 3 men as invaders. They should simply view them as Indians. So same way they have no issue with Mauryan, Gupta's, Vijayanagar empires conquering different parts of South Asia, and looting and killing while doing so, they should view these empires the same way.
    Didn't I clear your doubt regarding this? Akhand bharat is about the land which once belonged to hindus. It is not about the people. Those who believe in akhand bharat also believe in the two nation theory.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    There is nothing complex about universal humanity. You are misunderstanding the message of brotherhood in Islam. It doesn’t translate to only Muslims are your brothers and everyone else useless. No religion or great messengers would ever say that.

    Now that’s very foundational principle not different from any other religious tenets.

    Now coming to this overwhelming bond you speak of, you see Malaysians,Indonesians all retain their Pre-islamic culture, so do Arabs,Turks etc or even the less conservative Iranians and Pakistanis.

    Why did Pakistan have to involve themselves in Afghanistan? Why did Bangladesh happen? Why did Middle East have a conflict with Iraq?

    Because at the end of the day culture trumps everything else. That’s how important culture is for example: 2 of the biggest conflicts in sc were fought on culture be it LTTE or 1971.

    As I said religion is purely a spiritual pursuit to make yourself a better person. It cannot be a identity and never has been as you can see from conflicts in islamic countries.

    It is the culture which defines who you are, how you look,your hair, your eyes, your cuisine, etc etc etc.

    The basic summary is: if you don’t care for your own culture, you will he left with no identity.
    Universal humanity doesn't exist in practical sense. I don't see it happening anywhere. It's a nice concept which makes sense on paper but where is it being practiced exactly?

    However Islamic brotherhood I have experienced and witnessed firsthand. Go to any international university and there will be a Muslim society with people from all over the globe and the bond which exists there, I haven't been able to see in any other social club be it a sports club or a debate club.

    Show me any practicing Muslim community which has retained an aspect of their pre-islamic culture which clearly goes against the fundamental teaching of Islams.

    Did pre-Islamic Malaysians, Indonesians, Arabs and Iranians not eat pork and drink alcohol? Did they not change this aspect of their culture and cuisine based on Islamic teachings?

    Have Punjabi Muslims given up on their pre-Islamic tribal identification like Gujjar, Jat and Arain? Even today all these groups proudly hold on to these pre-Islamic identifiers, since they don't go against Islamic teachings. Have they given up eating Aloo paratha, drinking lassi, wearing turbans and traditional agricultural practices in favor of dates, Bedouin cuisine and nomadic arab lifestyle?

    Why was there a civil war in the United States? Why did french revolution happened and the wars after it? Why do North and South Korea are involved in a conflict since over a half a century now? After all in these conflicts people from same ethnicity, linguistic group and culture were fighting among themselves.

    The conflicts you mentioned are all primarily driven and created by the power hungry people, who are only interested in retaining and increasing their power. They are a good aspect for Muslims to think about and improve upon but they in no way nullify my personal of experience of brotherhood based on Islam.

    You want to preach to us Pakistani that we should think on a small level and hold on to an ethnic identity when religious one is far more global and historically relevant to us.

    Your last few lines make no sense.

    How I look is defined by my ethnicity but should my looks limit my range of thinking and association? After all my looks are just a quick way to estimate my place of origin and say nothing about my worldview, moral codex and habits. I don't see how they define a culture. You can adopt an African baby and raise him in a totally different, non-African culture. The kid won't automatically inherit the African culture by birth and be clueless about it.

    The way you look has nothing to do with your culture though it can be a good initial guess, since a Chinese looking person is more likely going to be raised in and be familiar with the Chinese culture.
    Last edited by Sirris; 1st August 2020 at 19:21.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    Hinduism is different than Islam. You can't simply generalize the meaning religion has for you onto everybody else.

    In Islam there is a strong concept of brotherhood based on religious grounds as religions provides a basic code of morality.

    Best demonstration of this brotherhood can be seen during pilgrimage to mecca where you have Arab people, people of African descent, people of South-East Asian, South Asian and European descent all standing side by side and performing the same rituals. For an outsider it is a difficult thing to understand, no doubt.
    Brotherhood? Really? Have you looked at the world around you where Muslims are constantly at war with each other?

    In fact after the death of the Islamic Prophet, his followers turned on each other pronto. The first Caliph was a contest between Ali and Abu. 4 of the first 5 Caliphs were killed by other Muslims.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pillionrider View Post

    BJP-influenced Indians are quite confused. They tomtom Saudi Arabia or whoever gave Modi a medal. They love Afghanistan because they think they're Pakistan's enemy. They love Donald Trump cuz they think he hates Muslims. Yet cry about Christian missionaries even as Trump wears his religion on his sleeve. There is no meaning often to the arguments made.
    there are chrislamophobes among bjp supporters, but that doesn't mean the ideology is flawed. the ideologues don't have issues with muslims or christians as long as they live and prosper in their own lands. they only have issues with those who threaten the demography in india. the support for trump and the hate for christian missionaries is not confusing. On behalf of the Sangh, I can clear any other doubts you may have.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyboy2018 View Post
    Beggars have no choice as the saying goes as our nuclear program is funded by arabs money. Infact the whole country is being run on foreign aid so really we have no freedom to name our missiles after Dr.abdus salam the only noble prize laureate. or some other prominent figure. It is sad state of affairs indeed that we can not even go Pakistani when it comes to such things.

    I hope they do not go kaputt (as the German says )when the real time comes and they take off when it matters.

    Personally, I feel like India and Pakistan will progress much faster if they become more friends instead of enemies this way they can feed their poor janta instead of spending money on military jets that they may never use them in a real life scenario.

    It makes me sad that even a dog in Germany has better living standards than a poor person either in India or Pakistan.
    You are one of those posters who may have one or two good points but you use every opportunity to whine and be negative about anything related to Pakistan/Islam which totally undermines any worthwhile thing you may have to say.

    Your first line makes no sense, since the names mentioned in OP are not names of historical Arab people.

    I am pretty sure the missiles can't be named after Dr. Abdus Salam because of his association with controversial Ahmadiyya group and the overwhelming opinion of the Pakistani public regarding this group. It has nothing to do with the source of funding for the project.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Brotherhood? Really? Have you looked at the world around you where Muslims are constantly at war with each other?

    In fact after the death of the Islamic Prophet, his followers turned on each other pronto. The first Caliph was a contest between Ali and Abu. 4 of the first 5 Caliphs were killed by other Muslims.
    I understand, it is difficult for an outsider to understand the brotherhood which I am able to experience on a daily basis as a Muslim origin guy living in a western country with quite a few international Muslims living here.

    The feeling of brotherhood, companionship and mutual bond is so strong that even I, as an doubting almost ex-muslim person have a hard time giving up on this part and aspect of Islam.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyboy2018 View Post
    Beggars have no choice as the saying goes as our nuclear program is funded by arabs money. Infact the whole country is being run on foreign aid so really we have no freedom to name our missiles after Dr.abdus salam the only noble prize laureate. or some other prominent figure. It is sad state of affairs indeed that we can not even go Pakistani when it comes to such things.
    The reason for naming the missiles after Arabs is not because Pakistan receives Arab money, but because the Pakistani military Establishment derives its domestic legitimacy by keeping hostility to India alive.

    Quite sad really that Pakistanis, who ethnically are only a small fraction of invader ancestry judging by their looks, identify with the invaders rather than their native ancestors. Hindu Punjabis and Muslim Punjabis look very alike, as do Hindu Gujaratis and Muslim Gujaratis and quite unlike Arabs and Mongols.

    Having the barbaric Saudis (who regularly execute teenage protestors) rather than great humanitarians like Mahavira and Buddha is really quite sad. Not only is this a bad choice, but it is also fake.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 1st August 2020 at 21:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    I understand, it is difficult for an outsider to understand the brotherhood which I am able to experience on a daily basis as a Muslim origin guy living in a western country with quite a few international Muslims living here.

    The feeling of brotherhood, companionship and mutual bond is so strong that even I, as an doubting almost ex-muslim person have a hard time giving up on this part and aspect of Islam.
    No, I am quite able to understand your feelings.

    You feel brotherhood towards other Muslims because you are part of a minority. That is something felt by all minorities living in a foreign land.

    Wars between Muslims start when they are no longer a minority and are engaged in a struggle with each other for power. Islam is all about the acquisition of power.

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    There is only an identity crisis for those who have a very poor understanding of the problematic.

    In the middle ages our(Muslims of Indian Subcontinent) ancestors held their religious identity dearer to them as was the norm all over the world. Hence why different European nations like the Franks, Germans and British were all able to unite as one force to recapture Jeursalem from Muslims.

    At those time and as with preaching of Islams our ancestors were not much interested in making the name of their tribe/ethnicity supreme. They weren't ethno-supremacists. They were not interested in seeing a Punjabi/Sindhi/Pashtun rule the region just because of his ethnicity. It didn't matter if the ruler was of Afghan descent or Central Asian descent as long as he was Muslim.

    Especially after Europeans gave up their religious identity and became heavily secular did they also start to heavily emphasize on their ethnic identity and made nations along the boundaries of different ethnic groups.

    Now some blind followers of Europe in Pakistan wish to enforce the same type of thinking on to a population who is not yet ready to give up and critically reevaluate their religious believes.

    Some ignorant wanna be enlightenment people want to secularize our past. They want to rewrite history and make figures like Ranjeet Singh a hero for ALL Punjabis and Aurangzeb a villian for all Punjabis on basis of ethnic grounds. When in fact none of our Muslim ancestors would have ever supported anti-Muslim Ranjeet and many may have profited from era of Aurangzeb.

    This is not how you make people critically question their religious believes and only further polarizes the society. Afghanistan saw the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism due to the oppressive policies of atheist communistic regime.

    We need to understand and respect our history and ancestors. For our ancestors Islam was the identity and ethnic identity was secondary. We can't go back in the past and vilify those they considered as hero and glorify those they considered their enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    There is only an identity crisis for those who have a very poor understanding of the problematic.

    In the middle ages our(Muslims of Indian Subcontinent) ancestors held their religious identity dearer to them as was the norm all over the world. Hence why different European nations like the Franks, Germans and British were all able to unite as one force to recapture Jeursalem from Muslims.

    At those time and as with preaching of Islams our ancestors were not much interested in making the name of their tribe/ethnicity supreme. They weren't ethno-supremacists. They were not interested in seeing a Punjabi/Sindhi/Pashtun rule the region just because of his ethnicity. It didn't matter if the ruler was of Afghan descent or Central Asian descent as long as he was Muslim.

    Especially after Europeans gave up their religious identity and became heavily secular did they also start to heavily emphasize on their ethnic identity and made nations along the boundaries of different ethnic groups.

    Now some blind followers of Europe in Pakistan wish to enforce the same type of thinking on to a population who is not yet ready to give up and critically reevaluate their religious believes.

    Some ignorant wanna be enlightenment people want to secularize our past. They want to rewrite history and make figures like Ranjeet Singh a hero for ALL Punjabis and Aurangzeb a villian for all Punjabis on basis of ethnic grounds. When in fact none of our Muslim ancestors would have ever supported anti-Muslim Ranjeet and many may have profited from era of Aurangzeb.

    This is not how you make people critically question their religious believes and only further polarizes the society. Afghanistan saw the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism due to the oppressive policies of atheist communistic regime.

    We need to understand and respect our history and ancestors. For our ancestors Islam was the identity and ethnic identity was secondary. We can't go back in the past and vilify those they considered as hero and glorify those they considered their enemies.
    Like many others, you buy into a romantic version of the past that is not supported by an objective reading of history. The romantic version of Islam's history is contradicted by the constant wars Muslims waged against each other. Also, if you received your schooling in Pakistan, you have been fed the romantic version as it is what the Establishment needs to justify the existence of the country (Islam is what makes Pakistan different from India) and to justify its power (Islam makes Hindu India the external enemy).

    The fate of people who cannot develop a correct understanding of the world is war and poverty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    No, I am quite able to understand your feelings.

    You feel brotherhood towards other Muslims because you are part of a minority. That is something felt by all minorities living in a foreign land.

    Wars between Muslims start when they are no longer a minority and are engaged in a struggle with each other for power. Islam is all about the acquisition of power.
    No I don't think you can understand.

    I am quite a social person, who doesn't need to rely on similar people to socialize and don't feel isolated in the society. I have many friends from the local population as well and am very well integrated.

    However there is an obvious difference in the bond and connection established which I can only explain due to principles of brotherhood preached by Islam. The non-Muslims don't have the kind of outlook and attitude towards friendships and companionship.

    The whole Muslims are at war with one another is a totally different and long topic. Many boundaries of modern Muslim countries are artificial and made by colonial powers. Many of the ruling class and power holding people in Muslim countries are leftovers of those colonial times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    No I don't think you can understand.

    I am quite a social person, who doesn't need to rely on similar people to socialize and don't feel isolated in the society. I have many friends from the local population as well and am very well integrated.

    However there is an obvious difference in the bond and connection established which I can only explain due to principles of brotherhood preached by Islam. The non-Muslims don't have the kind of outlook and attitude towards friendships and companionship.

    The whole Muslims are at war with one another is a totally different and long topic. Many boundaries of modern Muslim countries are artificial and made by colonial powers. Many of the ruling class and power holding people in Muslim countries are leftovers of those colonial times.
    Blaming others (the "colonial powers" here) for your religion's failings is the sort of coping mechanism that only blinds you from the truth.

    4 of the first 5 Caliphs were killed by other Muslims due to "colonial powers"? The Ottomans and the Safavids fought due to "colonial powers"?

    Try to find an extended period when Muslims have lived in peace instead of deceiving yourself that it is the fault of "colonial powers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The reason for naming the missiles after Arabs is not because Pakistan receives Arab money, but because the Pakistani military Establishment derives its domestic legitimacy by keeping hostility to India alive.

    Quite sad really that Pakistanis, who ethnically are only a small fraction of invader ancestry judging by their looks, identify with the invaders rather than their native ancestors. Hindu Punjabis and Muslim Punjabis look very alike, as do Hindu Gujaratis and Muslim Gujaratis and quite unlike Arabs and Mongols.

    Having the barbaric Saudis (who regularly execute teenage protestors) rather than great humanitarians like Mahavira and Buddha is really quite sad. Not only is this a bad choice, but it is also fake.

    Instead of fantasizing about following in the footsteps of invaders, Pakistan would do better about thinking about how to develop its economy and get out of grinding poverty that caused a doctor to reuse needles and infect hundreds of children with HIV. The continued hostility towards India only keeps the military domestically dominant while the economy rots.



    Ironically the only hope now for these poor Pakistani children are affordable HIV drugs produced by Indian pharma firms (some of which are owned by Indian Muslims).
    Stop. We have seen how barbar is India with its treatment of Kashmiris.

    What do you know about us Muslims/ Pakistanis? You are not qualified enough to have a correct opinion on us and that shows in your statement that we follow barbaric Saudis. What have you learned from Mahavira or whoever he was? How to put Kashmiris in a lockdown ? You are not less barbaric than Saudis. Look at your society that lives on the exploitation of casts that to you guys deem lower.I am glad we dont want to be associated with your culture.it is filthy. If and only if our desire to not be associated with ur culture is fake then we ll fake it till we make it.

    How ironic it is that an Indian would tell us to consider the state of our poor instead of being in constant arm race with you guys when you dont follow what you preach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Like many others, you buy into a romantic version of the past that is not supported by an objective reading of history. The romantic version of Islam's history is contradicted by the constant wars Muslims waged against each other. Also, if you received your schooling in Pakistan, you have been fed the romantic version as it is what the Establishment needs to justify the existence of the country (Islam is what makes Pakistan different from India) and to justify its power (Islam makes Hindu India the external enemy).

    The fate of people who cannot develop a correct understanding of the world is war and poverty.
    I am not denying the internal civil wars in the Muslim world, however you can't convince me that someone like Ranjeet Singh was the hero of my ancestors and I should consider him my hero as well just because we both are Punjabis.

    I am very well aware of my ancestors, the surrounding villages, their history and who they considered their hero. Ethnic identity was always secondary over the religious one.

    The main topic of this thread is whether ethnic identity should be favored over religious identity or not. My point is that we need to accept the past and not try to rewrite it while perhaps move towards a different future.

    I am not at all talking about how glorious Islamic history was and how it was the greatest civilization that ever existed.

    What's your point exactly?

    That Punjabi Muslims held their ethnic identity dearer than their religious one?

    How come they rejected Sikhism? A native Punjabi religion, with Punjabi as a sacred religion and all local Punjabi Gurus.

    Muslims of Indian Subcontinent demanded a separate Muslim state before Pakistani establishment came into being. Muslims Punjabis were okay with partition of their historical Punjabi land for they favored their religious identity. Current failure of Pakistani state and establishment doesn't change the fact that in past Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent favored their religious identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    I am not denying the internal civil wars in the Muslim world, however you can't convince me that someone like Ranjeet Singh was the hero of my ancestors and I should consider him my hero as well just because we both are Punjabis.

    I am very well aware of my ancestors, the surrounding villages, their history and who they considered their hero. Ethnic identity was always secondary over the religious one.

    The main topic of this thread is whether ethnic identity should be favored over religious identity or not. My point is that we need to accept the past and not try to rewrite it while perhaps move towards a different future.

    I am not at all talking about how glorious Islamic history was and how it was the greatest civilization that ever existed.

    What's your point exactly?

    That Punjabi Muslims held their ethnic identity dearer than their religious one?

    How come they rejected Sikhism? A native Punjabi religion, with Punjabi as a sacred religion and all local Punjabi Gurus.

    Muslims of Indian Subcontinent demanded a separate Muslim state before Pakistani establishment came into being. Muslims Punjabis were okay with partition of their historical Punjabi land for they favored their religious identity. Current failure of Pakistani state and establishment doesn't change the fact that in past Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent favored their religious identity.
    My point is that human nature hasn't really changed through history, so harking back to a glorious past is delusional. Whether it be ethnicity or some other reasons for thinking that wars are necessary has remained a constant through history. Religions have a deep influence on human thinking, and depending upon what they say they can make wars more likely or less likely.

    I have said all I have to in this thread, you are a decent person, I hope people like you figure out how to have a good life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Blaming others (the "colonial powers" here) for your religion's failings is the sort of coping mechanism that only blinds you from the truth.

    4 of the first 5 Caliphs were killed by other Muslims due to "colonial powers"? The Ottomans and the Safavids fought due to "colonial powers"?

    Try to find an extended period when Muslims have lived in peace instead of deceiving yourself that it is the fault of "colonial powers".
    What exactly is your main point?

    Can you please pick one topic and stick with it?

    I mentioned "colonial powers" in context of modern conflicts in the Muslims world. Sometime certain events are related and don't happen in isolation.

    Truth is that for instance there would be no Iraq and Kuwait war if colonial powers hadn't artificially created these two countries.

    There wouldn't be any Saudi intervention in Yemen, if colonial powers hadn't created these two countries.

    Power hungry and greed are basic human character flaws which don't go away just because someone is a Muslim. However if you are going to use that and historical Muslim infightings to convince me that there is nothing special about the principal of brotherhood taught in Islam than you won't be able to convince me. Since at the end of the day I have my personal life experiences which form the basis of my opinions and world view.

    I have yet to see anything come close to it from a purely secular and humanistic point of view. I try to take those principles of Islam and expand them outside of Muslim community but it is often hard to do so as the other non-Muslim person doesn't have the same point of view and attitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Thanks for the history lesson but Pakistan is majorly run by Punjabis. Punjab and Sindh consisting of Mohajir community and Sindhis pretty much are the back bone of Pakistan economy. None of the 3 communities mentioned have anything to do with Ghori,Ghaznavi. In fact they have Hindu ancestry.

    Your Army Chief has a Hindu surname for gods sake

    In fact if any all these “warriors” plundered Punjab and Sindh back in the day which makes it even more ironical.

    If this is a dedication to the Pashtun community may be you guys need to treat them better or else there wouldn’t be an uprising.
    Use common sense. Afghanistan also used to be Hindu Buddhist majority. All those Kings would have also had Hindu Buddhist ancestors if you go back far enough.

    in fact 99% of Muslims Kings would have had Hindu ancestors. Aurangzeb was a descendant of Lord Rama himself as the Mughals had intermarried into Kachwaha Raputs.

    So you should view them as also having Hindu ancestors, and then maybe your hatred towards them would go away.


    Speaking of surnames do you realize how many Sindhis, Punjabis, have Pashtun and Baloch surnames?

    The prime Minister of Pakistan has a surname of "Niazi" which is a Pashtun tribe.

    Pashtuns have been living in North India and Punjab and Sindh for the last 800 years. They have intermarried with the local population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    My point is that human nature hasn't really changed through history, so harking back to a glorious past is delusional. Whether it be ethnicity or some other reasons for thinking that wars are necessary has remained a constant through history. Religions have a deep influence on human thinking, and depending upon what they say they can make wars more likely or less likely.

    I have said all I have to in this thread, you are a decent person, I hope people like you figure out how to have a good life.
    I agree with your point.

    However for me the topic of the thread is whether people of Pakistan are going through an identity crisis for favoring their religious identity over ethnic one.

    My point is that historically our(Muslims of Indian Subcontinent) ancestors favored the religious identity. While we don't necessarily have to hold onto the world view of our ancestors and can crave a new identity we at the very least shouldn't try to rewrite the past by denying it or feeling ashamed and guilty about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by pillionrider View Post
    I think the distasteful part comes from naming a missile. And I too find this bit offensive. For all practical purposes, Pakistan's missiles are pointed mostly at India.
    India also has missiles pointed at Pakistan. The names are irrelevant. The important thing is that eventually there should be real peace between India and Pakistan, and if that ever happens India would be the closest country to Pakistan, and Pakistan would be the closest country to India.

    Quote Originally Posted by pillionrider View Post
    So the insinuation as interpreted by Indians is - we Pakistanis are descended from these folks and their conquests. They attacked Hindu kings most famously (though some of them killed smaller Muslim kings too). We look at India as Hindus mostly. Our ancestors screwed your ancestors. Hahaha, so now our missiles are going to screw you again.
    In South Asia armies usually had Muslim and Hindu soldiers, regardless of the religion of the King.

    So if you go back far in time, almost every Hindu and Muslims would have had some ancestors who fought for a Muslim King, and some who fought for a Hindu King.

    Everyone would have ancestors who killed, looted, raped, and also ancestors who would have been victims of the same thing.

    The amount of ancestors humans in 2020 have is quite large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by junoon View Post
    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/w...tani-missiles/

    Ghaznavi Missiles: Ghaznavi is a surface-to-surface short range ballistic missile named after Mahmud Ghaznavi, an 11th century Persian invader of Turkic origin who was the ruler of the Ghaznavid Empire, which consisted of modern day Pakistan, Afghanistan and eastern Iran. During his rule, the Mahmud of Ghazni invaded India 17 times and attained notoriety for destroying and looting the Somnath Temple (revered by Hindus).

    Ghauri Missile: This series of surface-to-surface ballistic missiles is named after the Mohammad of Ghor, a 12th century ruler of Afghan Ghurid Empire, who attacked and defeated a Hindu ruler Prithiviraj Chauhan in 1192. Later, one of his slaves, Qutab-ud-din Aibak went on to conquer North and Central Indian territories and founded the Delhi Sultanate, the first Islamic empire in India with Delhi as its capital.

    Babur Missile: A medium range subsonic cruise missile, it was named after Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, a Chagtai Turk from Ferghana valley in Central Asia, who dethroned the Afghan Lodi dynasty ruling India in 1526. Babur established the Mughal Empire in India and became India’s first Mughal emperor.

    Abdali Missile: This short-range supersonic ballistic missile is named after Ahmed Shah Abdali, an 18th century Afghan king who is also founder of the modern state of Afghanistan. By mid 18th century, the Mughal Empire had been severely weakened and Delhi began to be dominated by the Maratha Empire. In 1761, Ahmed Shah Abdali declared war on the Maratha Empire (which ruled Central India), known as the third battle of Panipat in which the Maratha Army was routed. He is He is also known for the holocaust his army carried out on the followers of Sikh faith. Between 1748 and 1765, Abdali invaded India 7 times and is also known for the humiliation he brought to the then Mughal dynasty.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asi...20of%20a%20war.
    This explains better than any words how Islam has survived century after century, and those nations who adopted the religion have failed to dislodge it from their people's hearts. A slave who rose to be Caliph? My word, that could well be what inspired the fabulous hit film Gladiator!

    Even I who am a confessed part time Muslim who struggles to enter a mosque even for Eid find these stories endearing.


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    Another example of Pakistanís grand identity crisis. First, we tried to emulate the Arabs but we were disowned and humiliated by them.

    Nowadays, we try to be Turks and go gaga over their two-bit celebrities and dramas while at the same time vilifying our own superstars -especially our female stars - by calling them Ďbehayaí and Ďghatyaí. Pakistanis always try to distance themselves from their subcontinental roots!

    The time is not far when we, again, will be utterly humiliated by the Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Another example of Pakistan’s grand identity crisis. First, we tried to emulate the Arabs but we were disowned and humiliated by them.

    Nowadays, we try to be Turks and go gaga over their two-bit celebrities and dramas while at the same time vilifying our own superstars -especially our female stars - by calling them ‘behaya’ and ‘ghatya’. Pakistanis always try to distance themselves from their subcontinental roots!

    The time is not far when we, again, will be utterly humiliated by the Turks.
    Do you consider Shalwar Kameez to be part of our roots? What about Biryani? What about Nastaliq script?

    Or do you think that anything other than what originated in the subcontinent to be foreign?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The reason for naming the missiles after Arabs is not because Pakistan receives Arab money, but because the Pakistani military Establishment derives its domestic legitimacy by keeping hostility to India alive.

    Quite sad really that Pakistanis, who ethnically are only a small fraction of invader ancestry judging by their looks
    , identify with the invaders rather than their native ancestors. Hindu Punjabis and Muslim Punjabis look very alike, as do Hindu Gujaratis and Muslim Gujaratis and quite unlike Arabs and Mongols.

    Having the barbaric Saudis (who regularly execute teenage protestors) rather than great humanitarians like Mahavira and Buddha is really quite sad. Not only is this a bad choice, but it is also fake.
    This would be the equivalent of people in England saying that because Anglo-Saxons invaded, Westminster Abbey and Palace of Westminster is not part of there heritage. Or because the Normans invaded the Tower of London and Canterbury Cathedral is not part of there heritage. Or because the Romans invaded Hardians Wall and Bath is not part of there heritage. And that they want to go back to the culture that existed before the Romans arrived. And they want to rename England, which is a name from the Anglo Saxons, and get rid of the English language and go back to the language before they all came.

    But people in England like all sane people, don't view invaders and settlers as perpetual foreigners. They accept that there culture has many influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    This explains better than any words how Islam has survived century after century, and those nations who adopted the religion have failed to dislodge it from their people's hearts. A slave who rose to be Caliph? My word, that could well be what inspired the fabulous hit film Gladiator!

    Even I who am a confessed part time Muslim who struggles to enter a mosque even for Eid find these stories endearing.
    Does anyone in England ever complain about the Anglo Saxons invading, or the Normans or the Romans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The reason for naming the missiles after Arabs is not because Pakistan receives Arab money, but because the Pakistani military Establishment derives its domestic legitimacy by keeping hostility to India alive.

    Quite sad really that Pakistanis, who ethnically are only a small fraction of invader ancestry judging by their looks, identify with the invaders rather than their native ancestors. Hindu Punjabis and Muslim Punjabis look very alike, as do Hindu Gujaratis and Muslim Gujaratis and quite unlike Arabs and Mongols.

    Having the barbaric Saudis (who regularly execute teenage protestors) rather than great humanitarians like Mahavira and Buddha is really quite sad. Not only is this a bad choice, but it is also fake.
    There is no uniform look in Punjabis, Sindhis, Guratis, Bengalis.

    They come in all shades, from looking very light brown to looking like Sub-Saharan African.

    Second look at these pictures of what Mughals looked liked

    Babur - can look like a "Mongloid" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur#...r_of_India.jpg -
    Humayun - can look like a "Mongloid" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humayu...sh_Library.png

    Now look at the later Mughal princes, sons of Bahadur Shah Zafar

    Mirza Shah Abbas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Shah_Abbas
    Mirza Fakhru - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_...l-Mulk_Bahadur
    Mirza Khizr Sultan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Khizr_Sultan
    Mirza Jawan Bakht - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_...Shah_Zafar.jpg

    Do they look Mongoloid too you? If they were alive you would call them a liar, delusional, or having an identity crisis, if they claimed any Mughal ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    Does anyone in England ever complain about the Anglo Saxons invading, or the Normans or the Romans?
    No they are actually very proud of it, I had a conversation with an old man in the north east who was boasting of thenortherners fighting stock due to their women being sired by presumably more muscular Vikings back in the day.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As a nation, we have severe identity crisis. We have forgotten the real history of our region and have identified ourselves with foreign invaders who plundered the subcontinent.

    That is why we are overly impressed with Arabs and try to associate ourselves with their achievements. These days, we are obsessed with the Turks and do bhangra over Ertugrul, as if we have anything to do with what the Ottomans achieved.

    It is not entirely the fault of the public because it is state policy. We have not promoted our culture and history and have instead chosen to identify ourselves with religion only.

    Yes religion is a massive influencer when it comes to culture and heritage, but we have gone a step farther and have decided to source our culture from religion.
    Those foreign invaders settled in the subcontinent. There is a difference between looting like Nadir Shah and leaving back to Iran, and staying and intermarrying with the local population.

    Like every other King, they looted, and killed, and raped. Thats how the world was. You go far back in history you would have ancestors who would have done the same thing.

    However look at their cultural contributions:

    Clothing - Shalwar Kameez, Sherwani, etc is that not part of our culture?

    Music - Qawaali, is not part of our culture?

    Cuisine - Biryani, Nihari, Samosa, etc is that not part of our culture?

    Architecture - Badshahi Masjid, Jahangir Tomb, etc is not part of our culture?

    A better case you can make is that the pre Islamic History as well as the Islamic History is part of our heritage. Instead of blaming Muslims from doing what everyone else did. And holding them to a higher standard.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    No they are actually very proud of it, I had a conversation with an old man in the north east who was boasting of thenortherners fighting stock due to their women being sired by presumably more muscular Vikings back in the day.
    Thats what i though. People in England like all sane people, don't view invaders and settlers as perpetual foreigners. They accept that there culture has many influences.

    Only in subcontinent, where we come in so many different shades of skin color, that people pretend that after 1,000 years of various Muslim dynasties that only 0.0000000000001% of people would have any ancestors from those invaders.

    Yet at the same time the entire subcontinent, whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Sikh, take pride in those cultural things that those "invaders" created.

  50. #50
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    What should they be named instead? Modi, Rama, Partap Singh or Rani of Jhansi? Or May be India or Al Hind since the name comes from Indus River most of which is in Pakistan.

  51. #51
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    I don’t know why people are calling this identity crisis. As long as the culture doesn’t collide with religion there is nothing wrong with it. Pakistanis have a very rich culture, they still eat and drink what they have done for a long time, wear same dresses, have same big gatherings. Just because they have called their missiles this and that people bring up identity crisis thing lol.

    We have also other heroes like Bulle Shah, Waris Shah, Data Sahib, Sultan Baho to mentione some but their names are used in different sectors. It’s natural to name military equipment after war heroes or big muslim rulers. Anyways don’t know why the Indias also get disturbed by this?

    So in conclusion, religion comes first and as long as a cultural act does not collide with Islamic teachings, no harm in following it.


    Ki Mohammad (saw) sey wafa tu ney tou hum terey hain
    Yeh jahaan cheez kya hai Loh-o-Qalam tere hain

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    What should they be named instead? Modi, Rama, Partap Singh or Rani of Jhansi? Or May be India or Al Hind since the name comes from Indus River most of which is in Pakistan.
    Obviously not Modi but why not the other names? Arenít they heroes of Pakistanís history too? Lahore is named after Ramaís son Luv. The others fought foreign invaders. If you acknowledge 1857 as your history sure why not Rani of Jhansi? The fact that she is a women could help women empowerment which is important in sc.

    Fine if you go by the premise of Pakistanís history begins after 1947, doesnít your country have enough heroes who deserve that honor?

    Finally why name after invaders? Indian missiles are named after Powerful Sanskrit words shakti,agni etc which translate to power, Fire etc. I am sure there are enough equivalent such words in Arabic/Urdu/Punjabi

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    Aren’t they heroes of Pakistan’s history too? Lahore is named after Rama’s son Luv. The others fought foreign invaders. If you acknowledge 1857 as your history sure why not Rani of Jhansi? The fact that she is a women could help women empowerment which is important in sc.

    Fine if you go by the premise of Pakistan’s history begins after 1947, doesn’t your country have enough heroes who deserve that honor?

    Finally why name after invaders? Indian missiles are named after Powerful Sanskrit words shakti,agni etc which translate to power, Fire etc. I am sure there are enough equivalent such words in Arabic/Urdu/Punjabi
    Its pretty obvious really. Pakistan being a Muslim majority country doesn’t identify with them. Why name after foreign invaders? Same reason as above, they were Muslims.

    Why is India named India, a term coined by foreign invaders? Why are nationalists from Republic of India using English, that’s the language of foreign invaders?

  54. #54
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    Indians are desperate to impose this 'identity crisis' tag on Pakistanis. It probably stems from their own humiliating history and this deflection is a way to cope from it.

    A Punjabi villager, a Pashtun tribesman in KP or a shopowner in Karachi must be surprised if they hear that they are supposed to be going through some sort of 'identity crisis'.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Indians are desperate to impose this 'identity crisis' tag on Pakistanis. It probably stems from their own humiliating history and this deflection is a way to cope from it.

    A Punjabi villager, a Pashtun tribesman in KP or a shopowner in Karachi must be surprised if they hear that they are supposed to be going through some sort of 'identity crisis'.
    And far left liberals in Pakistan. There are some on this forum.

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    Let Pakistan name their missiles whatever they want. I find it silly that the Indians here are complaining.

    What is important is that India has a deterrence or an equivalent to those Ghauris and Ghaznavis. And I'm sure India does.

    It is not like those missiles are going to be any less malevolent if they are named after flowers or birds.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    Its pretty obvious really. Pakistan being a Muslim majority country doesn’t identify with them. Why name after foreign invaders? Same reason as above, they were Muslims.

    Why is India named India, a term coined by foreign invaders? Why are nationalists from Republic of India using English, that’s the language of foreign invaders?
    Pakistan has a ton of things named after Indus Valley Civilization, and Gandhara. They should have one missile named for Porus also. Both the Islamic and pre Islamic History should be honored.

    But to me it seems they want to erase Muslim history, by calling every Muslim King an invader, when 99% of them were born in the subcontinent.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    there are chrislamophobes among bjp supporters, but that doesn't mean the ideology is flawed. the ideologues don't have issues with muslims or christians as long as they live and prosper in their own lands. they only have issues with those who threaten the demography in india. the support for trump and the hate for christian missionaries is not confusing. On behalf of the Sangh, I can clear any other doubts you may have.
    Why does Modi and his supporters (including those on PP) do not express the content of their ideology as clearly as you do ?

    Is it because they are yet to fully unshackle themselves from stigmatic past ?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Didn't I clear your doubt regarding this? Akhand bharat is about the land which once belonged to hindus. It is not about the people. Those who believe in akhand bharat also believe in the two nation theory.
    so basically the same as the ghazwa e hind brigade. Who want the entire subcontinent for Muslims.

    Two sides of the same coin.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    Pakistan has a ton of things named after Indus Valley Civilization, and Gandhara. They should have one missile named for Porus also. Both the Islamic and pre Islamic History should be honored.

    But to me it seems they want to erase Muslim history, by calling every Muslim King an invader, when 99% of them were born in the subcontinent.
    Pakistanis cannot relate with Porus. Most even do not know his name.

    Secondly, if Indians (Hindus) want to do away with glorification of past Muslims then that is their right as long as they are in power.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Why does Modi and his supporters (including those on PP) do not express the content of their ideology as clearly as you do ?

    Is it because they are yet to fully unshackle themselves from stigmatic past ?
    It is the part of the game plan. We have to appear secular to others. It is too useful a tag to be thrown away.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    so basically the same as the ghazwa e hind brigade. Who want the entire subcontinent for Muslims.

    Two sides of the same coin.
    Yes, ghazwa-e-hind brigade is comparable with akhand bharat. There is a moderate section which doesn't want more land, but is happy with whatever they have as long as TNT is followed.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    It is the part of the game plan. We have to appear secular to others. It is too useful a tag to be thrown away.
    But surely an idealogy containing ambitions as high as Akhand Bharat cannot succeed through tacit, cowardly considerations or you believe otherwise ?

    You said in another thread that survival instead of honour has remained the hindu way in past. Is that approach the part of ideology or something that Hindus must move away from to achieve their goals ?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    But surely an idealogy containing ambitions as high as Akhand Bharat cannot succeed through tacit, cowardly considerations or you believe otherwise ?

    You said in another thread that survival instead of honour has remained the hindu way in past. Is that approach the part of ideology or something that Hindus must move away from to achieve their goals ?
    Immediate goal is to establish hindu rashtra in india, which is our birth right. Akhand bharat is highly ambitious and is not possible unless a hindu rashtra is established first.

    The cockroach mentality is not part of the ideology, it is what many indians have become. The churn you see in the indian society, and the disagreement among the indian pp posters is because one side lacks spine and is happy to worship those who enslaved them, and the other side wants to set the record straight. When a group is oppressed for centuries, they only get closure when they become oppressors to their historical enemies. Only after getting closure, can peace be attained.

    ps: glad that someone reads my posts. Sometimes I felt people just ignore me.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Sometimes I felt people just ignore me.
    Don't be that way

    I learnt a new term from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    there are chrislamophobes among bjp supporters, but that doesn't mean the ideology is flawed. the ideologues don't have issues with muslims or christians as long as they live and prosper in their own lands. they only have issues with those who threaten the demography in india. the support for trump and the hate for christian missionaries is not confusing. On behalf of the Sangh, I can clear any other doubts you may have.
    Chrislamophobe.

  66. #66
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    Lets rename them after Quaid Jinnah, Allama Iqbal and Nusrat Fateh. Problem solved


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Indians are desperate to impose this 'identity crisis' tag on Pakistanis. It probably stems from their own humiliating history and this deflection is a way to cope from it.

    A Punjabi villager, a Pashtun tribesman in KP or a shopowner in Karachi must be surprised if they hear that they are supposed to be going through some sort of 'identity crisis'.
    Agreed
    They claim that Pakistanis are going through an 'identity crisis', but what exactly is the indian identity?

    Isn't 'Indian' itself an artificial national identity? What do people from different regions of India or sub-continent have in common with each other?
    Even Europeans from different countries have more in common with each other than people from different parts of India.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by junoon View Post
    Agreed
    They claim that Pakistanis are going through an 'identity crisis', but what exactly is the indian identity?

    Isn't 'Indian' itself an artificial national identity? What do people from different regions of India or sub-continent have in common with each other?
    Even Europeans from different countries have more in common with each other than people from different parts of India.
    agreed and disagreed. indian is an artificial identity, like all nationalities. However, to have something in common, all you need is a belief in common myths. if the indians believe they are a part of a nation, that is enough for commonality. like a chechen muslim and a nigerian muslim would appear to have nothing in common, but they are very close as they share belief in common myths, ie, religion.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Yes, ghazwa-e-hind brigade is comparable with akhand bharat. There is a moderate section which doesn't want more land, but is happy with whatever they have as long as TNT is followed.
    Even Ghazwa e hind brigade believes in the TNT theory for now. Or perhaps they are cleverly playing the long game AKA bagal mein churi tactic. Profess they don't want reunification with Pakistan - which they don't at present - but once the ghar wapsi movement takes hold, take it back inch by inch. Ghar wapisi would need well motivated proponents, or maternal uncles to do some cheerleading from Pakistan's side as well of course.

    Is this how it would play out in minds of idealistic Indian patriots?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  70. #70
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    Unity through faith is often stronger then man made borders. If we think what the world would have been like on the first day of creation then every country is fake. Only thing is the stupid "Mera Bharat Mahaan" people genuinely think India is heaven on earth with some divine mission. It is the effectiveness of the missiles that matter more then it's names or who produced them.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Unity through faith is often stronger then man made borders. If we think what the world would have been like on the first day of creation then every country is fake. Only thing is the stupid "Mera Bharat Mahaan" people genuinely think India is heaven on earth with some divine mission. It is the effectiveness of the missiles that matter more then it's names or who produced them.
    I agree with this post.

    Name doesn't mean anything. What these missiles can do are far more important.

    Also, man made borders are never permanent.


    Bangladeshi Fan

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    I agree with this post.

    Name doesn't mean anything. What these missiles can do are far more important.

    Also, man made borders are never permanent.
    Name matters too. These names have a psychological impact on the hindus. Fearing these names is part of their DNA now.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Name matters too. These names have a psychological impact on the hindus. Fearing these names is part of their DNA now.
    I don't want Hindu's to fear Muslim's at all. For the subcontinent to progress all must work together. Only if Hindu India provokes Pak should we show our teeth to them. As for Indian Muslim's they chose them over Pak.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Pakistan is Muslim so ofcourse would relate to Muslim figures more. Just like the Europeans do with Christianity instead of their past paganism, I don't see anyone in UK bashing the British public for remembering Christian invaders. So not sure what the problem is?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Name matters too. These names have a psychological impact on the hindus. Fearing these names is part of their DNA now.
    Hindu & Muslims of subcontinent have common ancestors. Not like muslims of SC are all arabians or turks or persians. Difference is our forefathers decided to convert & hindus's didn't.

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    People reading into it too much, Pakistani do have identity crisis since we don't know who to associate with but these missile names are more political in nature than anything else. We know what Babur and Taimur did they wrecked havoc so will the missile/rocket firework whatever we are talking about.


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