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    A harrowing tale of mistreatment in a UK hospital - who is to blame?

    Shocking footage obtained by The Mail on Sunday shows how police officers violently dragged a grieving father from the hospital bedside of his dying daughter shortly after he had been told her life support was being withdrawn.

    The harrowing film from a police body camera shows the moment Rashid Abbasi, a 59-year-old hospital consultant, was wrenched away from his critically ill six-year-old daughter by an officer holding his neck.

    Mr Abbasi, who has worked in the NHS for more than 30 years, had his legs and ankles strapped together and was wheeled away from his daughter Zainab on a trolley. His wife Aliya, a former doctor, was grabbed from behind, pulled from the bedside and fell backwards on to the floor of the hospital ward screaming.

    The disturbing incident took place in a hospital in the North of England that the MoS cannot name for legal reasons. It came after the parents were involved in a protracted dispute with doctors over the care of their critically ill daughter. Medics insisted Zainab should be allowed to die but Mr and Mrs Abbasi fought for further treatment that they were convinced would keep her alive.

    Aliya turns to the tallest of the officers to beg for empathy for her grief, asking: ‘Do you have children?’ He says yes

    Police were called to Zainab’s bedside after a complaint about Mr Abbasi’s behaviour.

    The MoS can also reveal how:

    The distressing footage shows that, as Mr Abbasi was arrested, a female police officer shouted: ‘You’re acting like an animal, it’s disgusting’;

    Officers repeatedly refused to retrieve emergency medication from his pocket, despite his cries that he was suffering chest pains;

    He says he was later told that he had suffered a heart attack and underwent a heart procedure the following day;

    Mr and Mrs Abbasi fought a three-week legal battle against hospital bosses to overturn draconian reporting restrictions that prevented them telling their story;

    Mr Abbasi has begun proceedings to sue police for wrongful arrest;

    In their first newspaper interview, the couple last night condemned the ‘brutal’ and ‘callous’ way they were treated by police.

    The episode shines a spotlight on how the NHS handles sensitive cases when parents disagree with medics’ decisions to withdraw their child’s life support. It follows the traumatic cases of Alfie Evans and Charlie Gard, terminally ill children whose parents fought long legal battles over their care.

    Rashid and Aliya Abbasi’s daughter Zainab suffered from respiratory problems and a rare genetic illness called Niemann-Pick disease, which meant she was likely to die during childhood.

    The couple clashed with Zainab’s doctors for years over her treatment. They say that on two previous occasions when Zainab was critically ill they had successfully argued for her to be treated with steroids instead of having life support withdrawn, and were proved correct when her condition improved.

    l Meanwhile the other two officers manhandle a visibly distraught Rashid away from the bed while still in his chair

    After her admission to hospital last July, Mr and Mrs Abbasi believed that, while their daughter was dangerously ill, she could survive with the right care.

    But on August 19, doctors told the Abbasis that Zainab was dying. An audio recording reveals how one doctor told them that ‘the next steps would involve taking her off the ventilator’. Rashid and Aliya pleaded for further tests, but one of the doctors refused, saying the process of moving Zainab on to palliative care needed to start ‘straight away’. Rashid told them they would have to get a court order to do so.

    Urged again to carry out more tests, the doctor replied ‘We are not going to be doing any more going round in circles’, adding: ‘You will never come to terms with this.’

    The medics then attempted to hand the couple a letter restricting Mr Abbasi’s visiting hours amid claims that staff felt ‘threatened and intimidated’ by him.

    Mr Abbasi, a respiratory expert who works at a different hospital, stormed out of the meeting but hospital staff then called police, claiming he pushed a senior doctor who attempted to prevent him returning to his daughter’s bedside. Half an hour later, four police officers and two security guards gathered at Zainab’s bedside where the devastated Abbasis and one of their sons were quietly comforting her.

    Amid the struggle, Rashid yells that he has chest pains, but is told: ‘You’ve brought this on yourself'

    The bodycam footage shows how officers asked on a number of occasions for Mr Abbasi to leave his daughter’s bedside and talk to them outside the ward but he refused.

    Mrs Abbasi suggested the officers talk to her husband at the bedside. She pleaded with them to show ‘compassion’, saying: ‘We were just informed they were going to take the tube out of our daughter.’

    But after just over five minutes, an officer gave Mr Abbasi a final warning before wrenching him away from his daughter. One officer held his neck as he was dragged in his chair away from the bedside, the footage shows.

    After being forced on to the floor, Mr Abbasi, who suffers from serious heart problems, complained of ‘chest pain’, only to be told: ‘You’ve brought this on yourself.’

    The officers are seen claiming that Mr Abbasi kicked and bit them during the struggle. Mr Abbasi denies the claims.




    Mr Abbasi told the MoS: ‘The pictures speak for themselves. They behaved like barbarians. They were not prepared to listen. My daughter was given a death sentence half an hour before they arrived.’

    Mr Abbasi was taken to accident and emergency, where officers later de-arrested him. He said he was told he had suffered a heart attack and the next day he underwent an emergency angioplasty.

    Following the incident, the NHS trust applied to the High Court for permission to take Zainab off the ventilator, but on September 16, just three days before the hearing was due to start, Zainab died.

    On Friday Mrs and Mrs Abbasi won a legal battle to partially lift reporting restrictions.

    Andrea Williams of the Christian Legal Centre, which is helping the couple, said: ‘The family showed extraordinary restraint in the face of brutal treatment. They genuinely feared that their only daughter was about to die.’

    The hospital said: ‘When there is a risk to the safety of any of the patients in our care, to relatives, visitors or to our staff – or interference with the delivery of care and treatment – it is necessary for us to seek help from the police. This is never taken lightly. It is essential we maintain a safe and secure environment, particularly where we are caring for very sick and vulnerable patients.’

    The police force involved, which the MoS cannot name for legal reasons, said its officers responded to a call ‘of a man being violent and abusive towards staff and that he had assaulted a consultant’.

    They added: ‘While we recognised this was a very distressing time for him and his family, our duty was to ensure the safety of all those present.’ They confirmed Mr Abbasi was arrested on suspicion of breach of the peace and assaulting police officers, and that one officer was treated in A&E. The force added: ‘Due to the nature of the incident, it was necessary to detain the man and when he complained of feeling unwell he was taken for treatment as soon as possible.’

    The force said they had reviewed the footage and that it ‘sets out a very different picture to the limited version of events which have been presented to us’.

    How police 'brutally' intruded into a grieving family's sombre vigil just 30 minutes after the parents were told their daughter, 6, was being taken off her life support machine

    Between crisp white hospital sheets lies a little girl in a pink nightdress, a dark bundle of glossy black hair splaying out behind her on a well plumped pillow. Her father is at her side, tenderly stroking her right arm as her mother watches. Just 30 minutes earlier, parents Rashid and Aliya Abbasi had been told the time had come for six-year-old Zainab to die.

    Yet within moments their tragic bedside vigil turns into a violent clash with police, who at one point are filmed with their hands around Rashid’s neck. He is dragged away from his dying daughter, in handcuffs and with his legs and ankles strapped together, as a female officer snarls into his face: ‘You’re acting like an animal, it’s disgusting.’

    Video footage from a police bodycam shows that the scene when officers arrived at the hospital ward is sombre and calm. Rashid and Aliya appear to be quietly coming to terms with the devastating news that doctors believe their beloved daughter, who has been critically ill in hospital for three weeks, is dying and should be removed from her ventilator.

    Rashid is sitting hunched forward in a blue hospital chair beside the bank of machinery keeping Zainab alive. A curtain is drawn back as the couple, who were accompanied by one of their sons, feel no need to seek privacy.

    Aliya, towards the foot of the bed, seems too exhausted to be scared – or even surprised –when she sees the police officers, three male and one female, approaching. One of the men asks Rashid: ‘May I have a quick word with you, Sir? Not here, if you could just come outside.’ Rashid replies quietly: ‘No, I don’t want to leave my daughter: my daughter is dying.’

    When the PC repeats his request, Aliya starts to explain, believing the officers are unaware of the distressing news which has just been delivered. ‘We have just been told, about half an hour ago, that they are going to take the tube out and our daughter is going to die so, to be honest…’ Her voice tails off as she struggles to articulate her distress.

    Aliya invites the officers to sit with them at the bedside, saying: ‘You’re welcome to drag up a chair and just sit here and talk to us.’ The couple show no signs of refusing to co-operate, but they do not wish to leave their child.

    Rashid is sitting hunched forward in a blue hospital chair beside the bank of machinery keeping Zainab alive. A curtain is drawn back as the couple, who were accompanied by one of their sons, feel no need to seek privacy

    Rashid is told by an officer his behaviour is ‘of some concern’. He responds: ‘This is a lie.’

    ‘Was Friday a lie as well, about your behaviour, which is why the police were called?’ the officer asks, making the exchange more confrontational, while repeating requests to take the conversation outside.

    His colleague, tall with a shaven head, steps past Aliya to take up a position behind Rashid. He appears to repeat a scripted request for co-operation: ‘Is there anything I can reasonably say or do to get you to listen to what I am saying and comply with what I am asking you to do?’

    Neither parent has yet raised their voice or stood up. Aliya again tries to explain their desperation: ‘They are going to take the tube out of our daughter, she is going to die… she is on a ventilator’ but her words are cut off by the officer.

    A nurse in a navy uniform puts her own hand protectively on Zainab, just inches from where the father is still gently holding his daughter’s arm.

    As the police continue to insist the parents leave their daughter’s bedside, Aliya again pleads: ‘My daughter is dying on a ventilator, I don’t think you quite understand…’

    The officers again ask Rashid to stand up and come with them, this time raising the spectre of arrest if he doesn’t comply with their request. Aliya then stands up and pleads with a hospital consultant on the ward: ‘Is this what you guys want?’

    The nurse, who by this point has been joined by a colleague, then tells Rashid that if he’s arrested, instead of returning to his hospital accommodation he will lose immediate access to his daughter: ‘You’ll not be close to her,’ she says.

    Her words are intended as an act of kindness but they seem to encourage a more forceful attitude from the tall male officer who emphasises: ‘There’s accommodation up by Accident and Emergency that’s a lot closer than the police station where he won’t be able to leave, so perhaps you should consider that before making your decision.’

    Aliya begs for them both to be allowed to stay, not to waste a moment of their remaining time together. ‘When someone has got hours… we look after her 24 hours, 24 hours a day.’

    She appeals to the tall male officer to empathise and feel her grief for a moment. ‘Do you have children?’ she asks. He says he does, but then checks himself and adds: ‘Not that it’s relevant here.’ Now the female officer steps in, telling Aliya what’s best for her dying child. ‘What is best for your daughter is not to have this kind of confrontation around her. She is in the best care, in the best place.’

    Aliya responds: ‘She’s not, she’s not.’ But the female officer, clearly disgruntled at being challenged, insists: ‘Yes she is, yes she is,’ jabbing the air in front of her. When Aliya defends herself the female officer begins to lecture her: ‘You’re incorrect. The top and bottom of this is this environment you are putting your daughter in isn’t appropriate… Your husband is creating an issue.’

    Aliya pleads for understanding: ‘Were you told that half an hour ago [a doctor] informed us that they were going to take the tube out?’ Her voice, so calm until this point, starts to catch with emotion.

    But the female officer says bluntly: ‘Yes but they are not doing it right now!’ prompting the desperate mother to ask: ‘Do you know what compassion is?’

    Her appeal gets her nowhere, as the female officer tells her ‘from one mother to another that this is not right’. Aliya says: ‘Do you know what I have to deal with here?’

    Now, five and a half minutes into the confrontation, the tall male officer repeats his ‘is there anything I can reasonably say or do…’. script before leaning over Rashid.

    He starts to physically remove him, repeating: ‘Leave go of your daughter.’ The officer wearing the bodycam and the female officer grab Aliya from behind and pull her backwards. Pandemonium breaks out. Aliya falls to the floor and screams in shock.

    Her terrified cry prompts an anguished bellow from Rashid, who is then dragged backwards from the bed while still sitting in his chair.

    Officers wrestle with his flailing arms and one policeman puts his hand on the father’s neck, beneath his chin, his fingers clearly visible against the grey hairs of the older man’s beard. As Rashid is levered away from his daughter’s bed, the command ‘On the floor!’ is clearly given.

    Three officers, including the one wearing the bodycam, struggle with Rashid, yelling at him ‘Stop fighting,’ while the female officer and man who appears to be a security guard restrain Aliya. After a fierce struggle, Rashid, panting with exertion and fear, is overpowered and handcuffed.

    He complains of chest pains only to be told by an officer: ‘You have brought this on yourself.’

    ‘We’ll take you to A&E, that’s absolutely fine,’ says another officer. ‘Please come with us and act responsibly, you’re an adult, you’re an educated person.’

    By now Rashid is lying prone on the polished pale grey floor of the ward, his head jammed into the wooden frame of a closed hospital door. He is clearly in physical and mental distress, groaning and grimacing.

    Police try to get him to sit up, but he resists, continuing to repeat that he has chest pain and asking for the emergency medication he has in his pocket.

    The female officer tells him he cannot have it until he complies with their orders. ‘If you sit up reasonably… we’ll get your medication.’

    The officers attempt to sit Rashid, by now handcuffed, on a chair but the scuffle continues as he screams and then accuses one of the male officers of kicking him. With mounting anger the father yells: ‘Why are you are kicking me, you *******… what are you doing?’ The policeman can be heard denying the accusation.

    He slides back on to the floor, telling the officers he is too dizzy to sit up. Distressingly, he repeatedly shouts for his medicine, warning the officers ‘I will have a heart attack!’

    The officers then tie him with a double leg restraint, one around his thighs and another at the ankles and then, satisfied that he has been immobilised, lift him on to a waiting trolley. All the time he screams: ‘Let me have my medicine. I’ve got chest pain! I will have a heart attack!

    ‘You animals. Animals. Animals,’ he says. The female officer believes he is trying to kick her and clearly loses her temper, snarling: ‘You are acting like an animal. It’s disgusting.’

    She orders her male colleagues ‘Get him out.’ She then tells Rashid again: ‘Your behaviour in front of your child is disgusting.’

    A male officer accuses Rashid of biting him and later appears to show the camera a wound on his hand. Rashid is heard denying the claim.

    There are further furious exchanges as Rashid is pushed through double doors out of the ward and out into a corridor and he attempts to grab one of the officers with his cuffed hands. The female officer shouts ‘stop biting’ and Rashid replies ‘I’m not biting.’

    He accuses the police of hurting his wrists and repeatedly asks for his medicine. They reassure him that they are taking him to A&E for urgent help but one of the officers appears to tell him: ‘If you act like an animal, you are going to be [treated] like one.’

    As he is wheeled into a corridor, the bodycam footage cuts out.

    'Our little girl was dying, all we wanted was some compassion': Heartbroken parents recall 'brutal' moment they were wrenched from their 'lovely little girl' who they had fought to keep alive

    Zainab Abbasi’s bedroom remains untouched since the heartbreaking day ten months ago when the terribly ill six-year-old girl died in hospital. A Disney poster adorns the door, two birthday cards, both featuring princesses, are still on display and Tigger, her favourite soft toy, sits on a shelf opposite her empty bed.

    ‘She was the light of our home,’ her grief-stricken mother Aliya told The Mail on Sunday. ‘When she passed away it was like the soul had been taken from our house. All of us were here but the home was empty.’

    What made Zainab’s death in September so unbearably painful for Aliya and her husband Rashid, who are both doctors, is that her final weeks were overshadowed by a bitter dispute with medical staff over whether to withdraw life support – so bitter in fact that it culminated in the violent arrest of Rashid and his forced removal from his dying daughter’s bedside.

    For much of her short life, Zainab was only able to communicate with her father by gently squeezing his hand. Indeed, she was holding one of Rashid’s fingers as a police officer shouted ‘leave go of your daughter’ before dragging him from her.

    With tears streaming down his face, Rashid, 59, a respiratory consultant at a different hospital to the one Zainab died in, said he still suffers ‘flashbacks’ of the harrowing incident.

    ‘As I was being pulled off her bedside she was holding my finger,’ he said. ‘One officer was squeezing my wrist at the same time as they pulled me. I could feel pins and needles.

    ‘I fell on top of them and then they pulled me down and they were kneeing me on my lower abdomen. It was brutal.’

    Aliya, 53, added: ‘It was so unbelievable. I had this feeling that I spoke but nobody could hear me. I kept saying, “You don’t understand, half an hour ago we were told that they are going to take our daughter’s tube out. She is dying.” ’

    Born in June 2013, Zainab was Rashid and Aliya’s fourth child – but their first girl. Rashid and Aliya noticed their daughter was missing some key development milestones but believed she was otherwise thriving.

    ‘She was very cheeky, very bright, a lovely little girl,’ Aliya said. ‘She was a bundle of joy, she really was. From the beginning she was a little fighter. She was a feisty little thing.’

    But in January 2016, Zainab contracted swine flu and, after spending weeks on a ventilator, was left with respiratory complications, which she suffered from for the rest of her life. Swine flu has continued to circulate in the UK each winter after the 2009 global pandemic.

    Weeks later, Zainab was diagnosed with Niemann-Pick disease, a rare and incurable genetic disease. After this devastating development, which meant she was likely to die before adulthood, Rashid and Aliya increasingly clashed with Zainab’s doctors over her care, particularly the way her respiratory problems were being treated.

    Although she lost the ability to speak, Zainab’s parents say she could still communicate by making non-verbal noises and would be in bright spirits despite being seriously ill.

    Even when on a ventilator, she would enjoy watching her favourite film, Paddington.

    ‘And she could respond to music, she would watch her DVDs,’ Aliya said. ‘She loved having her hair washed, brushed and plaited.’

    The disagreements between Zainab’s parents and her doctors intensified when she fell dangerously ill last July and was admitted to hospital for the final time. On August 16, Rashid was banned by the hospital from visiting his daughter between 5pm and 9am because it was claimed a junior doctor had felt ‘threatened and intimidated’ by him during a dispute over Zainab’s care.

    Medical staff later called police when Rashid did visit, but officers calmly handled the situation and he was allowed to stay.

    Three days later, Rashid and Aliya met three senior doctors in a room near Zainab’s ward, who told them they wanted to take her off her ventilator, which was providing her lungs with oxygen, and allow her to die ‘in the most caring manner’. Rashid and Aliya disagreed and a heated argument escalated when the doctors attempted to hand Rashid a letter spelling out how his visiting hours would be restricted.

    Medical staff claimed Rashid pushed one of the doctors as he stormed out of the meeting. He denies this. ‘My shoulder may have brushed him but then he is the one who ran after me. He first tried to stop me,’ he said.

    The couple said they ‘panicked’ because they feared medical staff were taking Zainab off the ventilator while they were in the meeting. ‘It was like being hit with a sledgehammer,’ Aliya said.

    Around half an hour later, four police officers and two security guards gathered at Zainab’s bedside, where Rashid, Aliya and one of their sons were sitting calmly.

    They repeatedly asked Rashid to move into a different area where they could speak to him, but he did not move. Aliya explained why her husband needed to be there – and asked, ‘Do you know what compassion is?’ But five-and-a-half minutes later chaos broke out as officers attempted to forcibly remove Rashid.

    ‘I thought they were in parallel, removing Zainab’s tube as well,’ he said. ‘To this day, I wake every night thinking somebody’s tightening my handcuffs and Zainab’s tube is being pulled out.’

    As officers forced him to the ground to put handcuffs on him, Rashid, who had previously suffered two heart attacks, felt a crushing pain in his chest. ‘I thought, if I die, what happens to my daughter? I would never see her again and they would almost certainly carry out their threat of removing the tube. I can’t put it in words. I think the heart attack was just a physical manifestation of that distress.’

    Aliya breaks down in tears as she remembers how she later asked one of her sons to visit Rashid in Accident and Emergency because she feared he would die.

    ‘I wanted the children to say goodbye to their father. I thought they might not see him again.’

    Rashid and Aliya obtained police camera footage of the incident last December after making a request under the Data Protection Act – but it took them weeks to build up the courage to watch it.

    When she did finally view the video, Aliya was struck by the couple’s ‘sheer helplessness’ and the refusal of police to listen to their pleas for understanding.

    ‘I felt like I was this pathetic middle aged woman pleading with people to listen to her,’ she said.

    ‘I am having bereavement counselling and I tell my counsellor that this is how I feel now: I feel I speak and people can’t hear me.’

    Rashid added: ‘You are speaking to a brick wall. The louder you say things, the louder it bounces back to your face.’

    Following the shocking incident, the hospital trust treating Zainab – which did not withdraw her tube during the police incident – applied to the High Court for permission to withdraw life-support treatment and move her to a palliative care regime. A two-day hearing was scheduled for September 19 and 20 but her condition deteriorated, and on September 15, Mr and Mrs Abbasi made a last ditch attempt to save her life. During two emergency telephone hearings with a judge, Rashid and Aliya pleaded for their daughter to be allowed high doses of steroids.

    Their request was refused and at 10.08am the following morning Zainab died with her parents and brothers by her bedside.

    In a stark sign of how the relationship between the parents and hospital completely broke down after the arrest, two security guards were posted outside the entrance of the ward.

    Aliya and Rashid passionately believe their daughter was not terminally ill and that more could have been done to save her. ‘If that episode last year hadn’t happened, we could have carried on looking after her for many, many years,’ Aliya said.

    Rashid’s arrest was the last of many flashpoints with clinicians during the final years of Zainab’s life. He was arrested in February 2019 at another hospital after it was claimed he had refused to leave his daughter’s ward and was ‘agitated’. He was later de-arrested due to concerns over his health.

    The couple were also investigated by social services and police following allegations that they were ‘obstructing medical access to Zainab’.

    This included claims they had changed their daughter’s medication, given her a drug that had not been prescribed and given her too much oxygen at home.

    The couple have always strenuously denied the claims and say they have evidence which disproves them. The police closed their investigation last year due to ‘insufficient evidence’, while social services concluded that, while there had been safeguarding issues, Zainab was not at ‘continuing risk of significant harm’.

    The couple conceded that Rashid can become ‘animated’ but say this was due to the frustrations of their dispute over Zainab’s care.

    They denied he was threatening or intimidating.

    Aliya warned that other parents, who are less medically qualified than they are face similar battles against doctors determined to withdraw their child’s life support.

    ‘It’s a bit like if you take your car to a garage and a mechanic insists on a certain course of action. You go with the advice because you don’t know any better.

    ‘Because we were both doctors we knew exactly what should be happening and we could point out when our daughter was being failed. If this could happen to us, what about other people?

    ‘On two previous occasions, in 2016 and 2018, Zainab was critically ill in intensive care and doctors suggested it was time to bring her off the ventilator and allow her to die. But because of our medical knowledge, we successfully challenged them and urged them to treat her with higher doses of steroids. On both occasions we were proved right.

    ‘This happens up and down the country every day because parents don’t know what is happening.’

    Rashid, meanwhile, remains tortured by the memory of his violent removal from his daughter’s bedside. ‘Zainab had human rights. She wanted to have the closeness and the company of her parents. What happened to her human rights – the rights of a dying child?’




    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-home-preview
    Last edited by MenInG; 2nd August 2020 at 13:30.


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  2. #2
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    Long article but if you have the time, do read it and let us know how you have reacted in this situation.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Long article but if you have the time, do read it and let us know how you have reacted in this situation.
    Not sure why you have such a provocative title about the NHS when it was the police who behaved like animals.

  4. #4
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    If we did harrowing tales of how the public treat the staff with abuse, racism, insults, and on occasion physical violence we'd need to dedicate a forum to it instead of a thread. Ofcourse such stuff isn't printed in the press as it doesn't make for such provocative discussions.

  5. #5
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    Ive seen first hand how some NHS staff lack empathy and compassion and can be outright rude to families already under emotional stress and pressure

    They basically can also force through palliative care quickly on vulnerable families under the guise of a lack of quality life for the patient Their lack of communication and time for the families is unbelievable

    I understand the resources and budgets are stretched and for them a patient is a number but for the families this is a loved one that is everything to them Sympathy and understanding doesnt cost anything
    Last edited by Zaz; 2nd August 2020 at 16:14.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    Ive seen first hand how some NHS staff lack empathy and compassion and can be outright rude to families already under emotional stress and pressure

    They basically can also force through palliative care quickly on vulnerable families under the guise of a lack of quality life for the patient Their lack of communication and time for the families is unbelievable

    I understand the resources and budgets are stretched and for them a patient is a number but for the families this is a loved one that is everything to them Sympathy and understanding doesnt cost anything
    For us patient isn't a number, its very upsetting when a patient dies. Doctors have no time, literally, they have a list of jobs they have to do by the end of the day (its a literal list, if its not completed the consultants are on your back and repeated failure and its goodbye job). Its 12 hours days and with what, 30 min break? If they started spending time for each family noone would be treated. And no palliative care is rushed, unless you have proof as that's a pretty big accusation to make.

  7. #7
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    The staff are so rubbish they had to call the cops to deal with a situation like this jesus christ, shameful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Not sure why you have such a provocative title about the NHS when it was the police who behaved like animals.
    The police were called in by NHS staff (consultants).

    I cant really go in too many details bro but this family is closely known to me and you can understand the anguish when the docs tell you that your daughter's life-saving tube is to be pulled out.

    If you need more details - pls contact me via PM and I will explain but the fact is that the matter was dealt with very harshly by NHS.

    Many close family members of mine, including my son are doctors in NHS so I do understand what you are saying also


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    If we did harrowing tales of how the public treat the staff with abuse, racism, insults, and on occasion physical violence we'd need to dedicate a forum to it instead of a thread. Ofcourse such stuff isn't printed in the press as it doesn't make for such provocative discussions.
    Also remember both parents of this child were docs as well, one of whom had served the NHS for years. He suffered a heartattack during this.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    For us patient isn't a number, its very upsetting when a patient dies. Doctors have no time, literally, they have a list of jobs they have to do by the end of the day (its a literal list, if its not completed the consultants are on your back and repeated failure and its goodbye job). Its 12 hours days and with what, 30 min break? If they started spending time for each family noone would be treated. And no palliative care is rushed, unless you have proof as that's a pretty big accusation to make.
    Ive experienced it first hand how they can make a decision on palliative care and let the familiy know over 10 mins, they have no recourse whether they agree or not Its the doctors decision to make not the families and it can start within a few hours

    Is that not true?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Not sure why you have such a provocative title about the NHS when it was the police who behaved like animals.
    I will agree with this. The title is very misleading.

    As per the article, the family misbehaved with the staff and hence police was called which is the protocol in such cases.

    After police arrives, it will be under the jurisdiction of the enforcer about what procedure they should take. That will be out of the control of the staff.

    Coming to the incident, going by the conversation, it was clear that the medical staff gave time and also put the patient for extended period knowing it won't be able to save her. But they need to accommodate other patient and while consoling the family of the patient is required, it can't go on forever. Someone has to make a hard decision.

    It is heartbreaking to a father, mother and the family. But the hospital needs to attend other patients too.

    Some incidents have no right and wrong parties. NHS vs this family is as such.

    However, how the police officer behaved thats a different story altogether and clarification should be seek.
    Last edited by MenInG; 2nd August 2020 at 16:33.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    Ive seen first hand how some NHS staff lack empathy and compassion and can be outright rude to families already under emotional stress and pressure

    They basically can also force through palliative care quickly on vulnerable families under the guise of a lack of quality life for the patient Their lack of communication and time for the families is unbelievable

    I understand the resources and budgets are stretched and for them a patient is a number but for the families this is a loved one that is everything to them Sympathy and understanding doesnt cost anything
    Good post but tbh I think the lack of resource is overly exagerrated especially when you look at the lack of compassion in general, the NHS is a great place to work in terms of the benefits and financial package, if it were that terrible they wouldn't be there. A bit of common sense and empathy can go a long way in mitigating stupid situations like these, they generally are the most condecending pric£s in a work place as across all industries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    Ive experienced it first hand how they can make a decision on palliative care and let the familiy know over 10 mins, they have no recourse whether they agree or not Its the doctors decision to make not the families and it can start within a few hours

    Is that not true?
    NHS doesn't make these rules, these are set out legally by the government. If the doctors do not carry them out they are the ones who'd face the music. Whether we need a reform of rules, that's another issue. Such decisions are also not made by one doctor, they're made by an entire team.

    I have also had my immediate family member treated for cancer, barely survived but the treatment was top notch. And we have a close friend die, terminal cancer. Again, excellent treatment. You simply can't generalise over the entire hundreds and thousands of doctors who work.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    I will agree with this. The title is very misleading.

    As per the article, the family misbehaved with the staff and hence police was called which is the protocol in such cases.

    After police arrives, it will be under the jurisdiction of the enforcer about what procedure they should take. That will be out of the control of the staff.

    Coming to the incident, going by the conversation, it was clear that the medical staff gave time and also put the patient for extended period knowing it won't be able to save her. But they need to accommodate other patient and while consoling the family of the patient is required, it can't go on forever. Someone has to make a hard decision.

    It is heartbreaking to a father, mother and the family. But the hospital needs to attend other patients too.

    Some incidents have no right and wrong parties. NHS vs this family is as such.

    However, how the police officer behaved thats a different story altogether and clarification should be seek.
    Like I explained above, this is an incident for which I have more details but cannot share due to legal reasons but the provocation and then calling in Police to mishandle the situation on NHS premises was uncalled for.


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Good post but tbh I think the lack of resource is overly exagerrated especially when you look at the lack of compassion in general, the NHS is a great place to work in terms of the benefits and financial package, if it were that terrible they wouldn't be there. A bit of common sense and empathy can go a long way in mitigating stupid situations like these, they generally are the most condecending pric£s in a work place as across all industries
    Its a terrible place in terms of salary. The lack of resources are a joke. We have foundation year doctors doing the work of registrars because there are no doctors, my wife's average day is 12-13 hours with one break because she is the only one when there should be 2-3 with her. Our pay till we are consultants, which takes 10 years, is horrific, my pay would be £2100, in London. I don't have kids, imagined if I did. My wife's pay is horrible as well. It does go up but then 40% is gone in taxes.

    I have known doctors by the dozens who have left the UK. Most workers don't come to the NHS because its heaven, they do so because PLAB and other exams are cheaper and easier to pass.

  16. #16
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    Hope the title is better now for this discussion.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Its a terrible place in terms of salary. The lack of resources are a joke. We have foundation year doctors doing the work of registrars because there are no doctors, my wife's average day is 12-13 hours with one break because she is the only one when there should be 2-3 with her. Our pay till we are consultants, which takes 10 years, is horrific, my pay would be £2100, in London. I don't have kids, imagined if I did. My wife's pay is horrible as well. It does go up but then 40% is gone in taxes.

    I have known doctors by the dozens who have left the UK. Most workers don't come to the NHS because its heaven, they do so because PLAB and other exams are cheaper and easier to pass.
    Something needs to be done Successive govts have let the nhs rot. Ive heard theres a great deal of wastage too in certain depts Money and resources not being managed properly

    You cant have patients dying and families wanting answers and they cant get hold of a doctor for hours on end

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    Something needs to be done Successive govts have let the nhs rot. Ive heard theres a great deal of wastage too in certain depts Money and resources not being managed properly

    You cant have patients dying and families wanting answers and they cant get hold of a doctor for hours on end
    The bold is spot on. And that's where the problem is, you'd be astounded at the money being wasted on countless layers of management when there is no need, especially when its human resources. I remember a time where me even getting a placement would take months because no HR manager would reply to my email, despite there being 2 of them. So yes, there are issues, you're right which need to be addressed but it is not sustainable right now the way NHS is going. Imagine working 12 hr days where your only break is a 30 minute lunch, you miss one task and the patients and consultants are on your back. Every hour everyday. This will always result in bad decisions and at times poor service. And its being made worse because a lot of people are simply leaving now for Australia or Canada where salaries and working conditions are much better. UK's exams for international workers are far cheaper and easier than say the US or Canada but even they are drying up now.

    NHS is an amazing service, it breaks my heart that its left to rot.

  19. #19
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    Back to the topic - the fact is that the whole issue could have been dealt with in a much more compassion.

    The child passed away few weeks after this episode and we still mourn her loss.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Back to the topic - the fact is that the whole issue could have been dealt with in a much more compassion.

    The child passed away few weeks after this episode and we still mourn her loss.
    From what i gather their was a breakdown in understanding between the staff and family on how the child should be treated and the staff then called the police

    The police asked the parents to step outside repeatedly which they failed to do and hence the strong arm tactics

    This all couldve been avoided if both parties talked it through understanding each others point of view

    But i guess it comes back to the point where staff dont have the time or the resources to be spending hours discussing these things with families that can be according to them difficult or uncooperative


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    From what i gather their was a breakdown in understanding between the staff and family on how the child should be treated and the staff then called the police

    The police asked the parents to step outside repeatedly which they failed to do and hence the strong arm tactics

    This all couldve been avoided if both parties talked it through understanding each others point of view

    But i guess it comes back to the point where staff dont have the time or the resources to be spending hours discussing these things with families that can be according to them difficult or uncooperative
    The situation was that they had their 4-5 year old daughter slowly dying in front of their eyes.

    So you can imagine the upset and anguish.

    The mother, Dr. Aliya if you check the Police bodycam, politely asks for the police to discuss the issue in the room so they could continue watching their daughter.

    Putting leg restraints on the father which resulted in his heart attack - is over the top.

    I do understand that the police have a job to do - but was a little compassion at that time too much to ask?


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    The situation was that they had their 4-5 year old daughter slowly dying in front of their eyes.

    So you can imagine the upset and anguish.

    The mother, Dr. Aliya if you check the Police bodycam, politely asks for the police to discuss the issue in the room so they could continue watching their daughter.

    Putting leg restraints on the father which resulted in his heart attack - is over the top.

    I do understand that the police have a job to do - but was a little compassion at that time too much to ask?
    I feel both sides shouldve dealt with it better Firstly it should never have come to the point where police being called When they were, they shouldve shown more compassion and assessed the situation a lot better

    However on the flip side if the police are asking you to leave the room to discuss the matter then they must be obeyed whether you agree with them or not

    Yoi dont argue with the police and not obey them
    Last edited by Zaz; 2nd August 2020 at 18:03.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    I feel both sides shouldve dealt with it better Firstly it should never have come to the point where police being called When they were, they shouldve shown more compassion and assessed the situation a lot better

    However on the flip side if the police are asking you to leave the room to discuss the matter then they must be obeyed whether you agree with them or not

    Yoi dont argue with the police and not obey them
    And this is the issue - you have a child dying so can you expect people to not behave in a normal way.


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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    And this is the issue - you have a child dying so can you expect people to not behave in a normal way.
    To what extent the medical staff and police should undestand?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    To what extent the medical staff and police should undestand?
    One of the first questions my son was asked for when he went into medical school was about compassion.

    The medical profession is built around that ONE word.

    I understand if a patient or relatives are being violent but if they are anxious/verbalizing their problems then that needs to be handled.

    You need to watch the video and see Dr. Aliya asking them to sit down and listen to her husband - instead he is shackled like a criminal.


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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    One of the first questions my son was asked for when he went into medical school was about compassion.

    The medical profession is built around that ONE word.

    I understand if a patient or relatives are being violent but if they are anxious/verbalizing their problems then that needs to be handled.

    You need to watch the video and see Dr. Aliya asking them to sit down and listen to her husband - instead he is shackled like a criminal.
    I DO understand your perspective. But this case, wouldn't have escalated had there was a person who could play middleman between the two parties.

    I understand the empathy viewpoint but as I read from the article, there were troubles leading up to this incident. The police was called before this incident too (as per conversation written in the spoiler report). So it is hard to believe that it went from zero to 100 in just one day. The conflicts that were leading up to this incident, everything piled up to this. Both the sides probably knew, that it will go ugly. Lack of trust was also another issue.

    In my opinion, someone from the staff or someone from the family could have act as middle ground and this whole altercation could have been avoided.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    One of the first questions my son was asked for when he went into medical school was about compassion.

    The medical profession is built around that ONE word.

    I understand if a patient or relatives are being violent but if they are anxious/verbalizing their problems then that needs to be handled.

    You need to watch the video and see Dr. Aliya asking them to sit down and listen to her husband - instead he is shackled like a criminal.
    Police suffer from systemic racism, that's a sad fact. The government and the police themselves have admitted the same in various inquiries and reports. I can't imagine this happening to a white family.

  28. #28
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    the problem is that police officers have no idea how to deal with such kinda things, which becomes very obvious in a situation like this, its literally policing by numbers, with little creativity or initiative or sensitivity to the situation.

    no one can expect the parents of the kid to act rationally in this scenario, yet the police officers keep saying the same thing when they know it wont have an effect. the real question is why the nhs called the police in the first place, unless they were under threat of physical harm it doesnt make sense.

    also its a bit convenient the female officer claimed shed been kicked, so now they can hang assault on a police offer as a charge over the guys head. this is a terrible failure of policing, things escalated and everyone panicked.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Police suffer from systemic racism, that's a sad fact. The government and the police themselves have admitted the same in various inquiries and reports. I can't imagine this happening to a white family.
    True You wouldnt see this happening to a middle class white family working for the nhs

  30. #30
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    This was very distressing to read/watch. The parents just wanted to be at their daughter's side, and they were very compromising with the police. It was really ignorant from the police, who just ignored their wishes and then resorted to force. They really are heartless individuals.

  31. #31
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    Guys apologies if this thread came across as a dig against NHS/Police.

    Fact is that I know the family in question and all my views on this are biased.

    So I am very happy if people are putting up opposing povs as there are always to sides to such stories.


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  32. #32
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    A couple are taking legal action after being dragged away from the hospital bed of their dying daughter by police.

    Bodycam footage shows Rashid Abbasi being forced away by Northumbria Police officers from his critically ill six-year-old daughter Zainab, who was being kept alive by a ventilator.

    The doctors at a hospital in the North of England said half an hour before police were called they wanted to take the girl off the ventilator so she could be allowed to die.

    But in an interview with Sky News the parents, Rashid and Aliya Abbasi, both doctors, said officers were "being barbaric" in what they describe was like "living a nightmare".

    The footage, which has been shared with Sky News, is from an incident in August 2019, when staff at the hospital called police to attend because they say Dr Abbasi was being "violent and abusive towards staff and that he had assaulted a consultant".

    Dr Abbasi denies that he was ever violent or abusive and said the police de-arrested him after he had a heart attack.

    Zainab Abbasi was born with a rare-genetic illness which the family didn't know about until she was three years old.

    In July last year the six-year-old's health rapidly deteriorated and she was admitted to hospital, struggling to breathe and was placed on a life support machine.

    When the staff looking after Zainab wanted to take her off the ventilator that was breathing for her, her parents believed it wasn't the right thing to do which led to a bitter feud and police officers being called in.

    Dr Abbasi said: "They never listened to us, they would never provide explanations for their actions. I'm a chest consultant, and have worked in the NHS for 30 years.

    "The disease Zainab was suffering is not uncommon in adult populations, so I was able to ask leading questions."

    His wife Aliya Abbasi told Sky News: "The day before we were told they were going to ween her off and maximise her treatment.

    "That's all we were asking for, we said maximise her treatment, give her everything you can, give her what she needs which has worked in the past many times.

    "They did none of that, so it was breakdown of trust. When police came we were being shouted at, we're human beings, we're parents and we're being told our daughter's about to die, but we were shouted at, we were being treated like ****."

    When asked whether Dr Abbasi was ever "violent or abusive towards staff" at the hospital he said: "If that was right why didn't they come and arrest me and charge me? They let me go.

    "I knew that if I left the bed space, I would not be allowed to come back and they would do what they wanted to do."

    After being detained by police Dr Abbasi suffered a heart attack and was taken to A&E while still in custody.

    His wife said: "To be honest, we cannot explain what a nightmare this became. When my husband was being detained I was telling them he has a heart problem, he's had a problem for over 20 years.

    "I actually thought he was going to die, at one point I said to the nurses am I going to be organising two funerals?"

    Following the incident, the NHS trust applied to the High Court for permission to take Zainab off the ventilator, but in mid-September, just three days before the hearing was due to start, she died.

    Dr Abbasi says he wants justice for Zainab and wants to make sure this never happens to anyone again.

    "We are living a real hell today, and we want the whole world to see what happened at the bedside of a dying six-year-old child. I want the world to see so that it is not allowed to happen anymore.

    "No amount of money or gold would incentivise me to relive this. I want to make sure no other parents are treated the same way we were."

    In a statement Northumbria Police said: "While we recognised this was a very distressing time for him and his family, our duty was to ensure the safety of all those present.

    "We have reviewed the body worn footage from the incident which sets out a very different picture to the limited version of events which have been presented to us."

    The hospital which was looking after Zainab right until she died offered its heartfelt sympathies and condolences to the family, but told us its first priority is to always act in the best interest of its patients.

    In a statement, it said: "On very rare occasions, when there is a risk to the safety of any of the patients in our care, to relatives, visitors, or our staff - or obstruction or interference with the delivery of care and treatment - it is necessary for us to seek help from the police."

    https://news.sky.com/story/couple-to...dside-12041332


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  33. #33
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    What a truly sad tale.

    Not being a Doctor, I think I would accept the word of the clinical team and ask to stay with my loved one as she slipped away.

    Easy for me to say, of course.

    I was in an opposite sort of scenario where my father, at end of life, refused further treatment. The Doctors asked me permission to continue treatment when he became confused, but I strove to have them accept his last coherent wish. So they asked my mother instead.

    He was gone in another hour anyway.

    It was a time of very deep emotion, anger and grief, which under the wrong stimuli can explode.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Guys apologies if this thread came across as a dig against NHS/Police.

    Fact is that I know the family in question and all my views on this are biased.

    So I am very happy if people are putting up opposing povs as there are always to sides to such stories.
    You have no reason to apologise to anyone. The NHS is a broken system, a dump. It's some of the doctors and nurses who are keeping this instituation from breaking down, most do a great job.

    Condolonces to you and the family for the tragic loss of life of this young child.

    This is a disgraceful failure of the UK, from the government, hospital and the police. UK government has been making cuts to health services for over a decade now. The doctors/nurses and police in this case were criminal in my opinion how they dealt with these worried parents and the police should be charged with offences relating to riksing a mans life by not giving him the medicine his pocket.

    I hope the police and doctors are sued and fired from their roles.

    If this family has set up a page for financial help, please post the link as I would like to donate.


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    You have no reason to apologise to anyone. The NHS is a broken system, a dump. It's some of the doctors and nurses who are keeping this instituation from breaking down, most do a great job.

    Condolonces to you and the family for the tragic loss of life of this young child.

    This is a disgraceful failure of the UK, from the government, hospital and the police. UK government has been making cuts to health services for over a decade now. The doctors/nurses and police in this case were criminal in my opinion how they dealt with these worried parents and the police should be charged with offences relating to riksing a mans life by not giving him the medicine his pocket.

    I hope the police and doctors are sued and fired from their roles.

    If this family has set up a page for financial help, please post the link as I would like to donate.
    That's the alarming thing here, even after what went on in US you have a guy here TELLING them he think he'se suffering a heart attack yet he is tied up. But it's the police so nothing will happen. There was a stat I read somewhere how in 120 police cases where they were at fault noone got suspended much less punished

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    You have no reason to apologise to anyone. The NHS is a broken system, a dump. It's some of the doctors and nurses who are keeping this instituation from breaking down, most do a great job.

    Condolonces to you and the family for the tragic loss of life of this young child.

    This is a disgraceful failure of the UK, from the government, hospital and the police. UK government has been making cuts to health services for over a decade now. The doctors/nurses and police in this case were criminal in my opinion how they dealt with these worried parents and the police should be charged with offences relating to riksing a mans life by not giving him the medicine his pocket.

    I hope the police and doctors are sued and fired from their roles.

    If this family has set up a page for financial help, please post the link as I would like to donate.
    There is a petition for them - and they are involved in a legal battle - cannot say much more than that.


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    That's the alarming thing here, even after what went on in US you have a guy here TELLING them he think he'se suffering a heart attack yet he is tied up. But it's the police so nothing will happen. There was a stat I read somewhere how in 120 police cases where they were at fault noone got suspended much less punished
    The honest truth is that if this was a BLM issue, there would have been street protests but what really shocks me is that the father of the girl is a doctor himself - surely the staff and consultants would have taken that into account?

    And he did suffer a heart-attack.


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  38. #38
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    Interview with the father, Dr Abbasi by Radio 4



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  39. #39
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    A FATHER who was arrested after refusing to leave the bedside of his critically ill daughter when doctors told him they would withdraw her treatment is suing a police force following the incident.

    The long-serving NHS respiratory consultant, Dr Rashid Abbasi, 58, is also considering legal action against the NHS trust, which is not being named for legal reasons.

    Dr Abbasi’s six-year-old daughter, Zainab, was suffering from a rare life-limiting neurodegenerative condition called Niemann-Pick Disease.

    There were numerous disputes between her parents, who are both doctors, and the medical team supporting Zainab about the appropriate intensity of treatment, culminating in the incident in which Dr Abbasi was arrested in August 2019.

    Some reporting restrictions regarding the case were changed on Friday.

    Dr Abbasi’s arrest took place after doctors said they were planning to withdraw treatment from Zainab.

    She died four weeks later.

    Supported by the Christian Legal Centre, Dr Abbasi and his family have begun legal proceedings against the police, alleging wrongful arrest, and are considering legal action against the NHS.

    Dr Abbasi said: “We have lost our daughter Zainab, but we want to take action for future Zainabs so that no one else has to go through what she did and what we have.”

    A spokesperson for the trust said: “We would like to offer our heartfelt sympathies and condolences to the family at this extremely distressing time.

    “Our first priority is always to act in the best interests of our patients. Our clinical teams work hard with young patients and their families to provide optimal care for their individual needs and to reach agreement on the best treatment.

    “When disagreements about clinical care happen, we do everything we can to listen, understand and provide support during what are very difficult and sensitive circumstances. This involves the wider clinical team, consideration with our medical ethics team, and also obtaining second and third opinions from independent expert clinicians from other trusts.

    "When these routes have been exhausted, a High Court process exists to provide an independent judgment by a Specialist Judge who will hear evidence from everyone involved including experts and the system requires, and arranges, separate representation for the child.

    “On very rare occasions, when there is a risk to the safety of any of the patients in our care, to relatives, visitors or to our staff – or obstruction or interference with the delivery of care and treatment – it is necessary for us to seek help from our security staff or the police.

    “We must stress that this action is never taken lightly. It is essential that we maintain a safe and secure environment for our patients and families, particularly on intensive care units where we are caring for very sick and vulnerable patients.

    "Our staff always go to strenuous lengths to ensure that families’ wishes are respected, and that they are supported as they approach the end of their child’s life and make all possible efforts to ensure this is peaceful and dignified.

    "We understand that this has been an incredibly difficult time for the whole family.”

    A police spokesperson said: “We can confirm that on August 19, 2019, we responded to a call from a hospital of a man being violent and abusive towards staff and that he had assaulted a consultant.

    “While we recognised this was a very distressing time for him and his family, our duty was to ensure the safety of all those present.

    “The 58-year-old was arrested on suspicion of breach of the peace. He was subsequently also arrested on suspicion of assaulting police officers. Due to the nature of the incident, it was necessary to detain the man and when he complained of feeling unwell he was taken for treatment as soon as was possible.

    “One officer also attended accident and emergency for treatment."

    https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...daughter-sues/


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  40. #40
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    Chalk this up to lack of knowledge of British healthcare. Why is the NHS determining to remove someone off life support? This should be the decision of the family.

    This will never happen in US. The hospital has no authority. The family makes the decision. As it should be. This is ridiculous.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    Chalk this up to lack of knowledge of British healthcare. Why is the NHS determining to remove someone off life support? This should be the decision of the family.

    This will never happen in US. The hospital has no authority. The family makes the decision. As it should be. This is ridiculous.
    Because it isnít a private hospital, so the clinicians will not carry on applying care as long as they are paid.

    NHS clinicians have finite resources to satisfy infinite demand so must apply health rationing to improve quality and quantity of life as much as possible. For instance if I need a heart transplant and a younger man does too and there is one heart available then he gets it as it will likely add more years to his life than mine. Likewise if a childís situation appears hopeless then the clinicians will apply the bed and life support to one that is more likely to have a better health outcome.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Because it isnít a private hospital, so the clinicians will not carry on applying care as long as they are paid.

    NHS clinicians have finite resources to satisfy infinite demand so must apply health rationing to improve quality and quantity of life as much as possible. For instance if I need a heart transplant and a younger man does too and there is one heart available then he gets it as it will likely add more years to his life than mine. Likewise if a childís situation appears hopeless then the clinicians will apply the bed and life support to one that is more likely to have a better health outcome.
    So essentially, all life/death decisions or more like ALL medical decisions are not in your hands. People are told what will happen to them and that's it.

    That is just unacceptable. I want to decide what procedure I want done. If not me then my family. Not some "government admin".

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    So essentially, all life/death decisions or more like ALL medical decisions are not in your hands. People are told what will happen to them and that's it.

    That is just unacceptable. I want to decide what procedure I want done. If not me then my family. Not some "government admin".
    People in UK are free to also get treatment privately. So if a decision is not to their liking and they have dough they can go to a private clinic. And what are you on about, everyone is free to decide what treatment they want or don't want. If they don't like a treatment then noone is forcing them to undergo it.

    Unlike the US however we don't have people dying en masse because a benign treatment costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. The vast amount of proper get fantastic free treatment, I have had family her free cancer treatment. I myself have had procedures many times, on time and free of cost. The biggest issue is waiting times which is because of staff shortages and not enough people or doctors in the system.
    Last edited by Pakpak; 5th August 2020 at 20:20.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    So essentially, all life/death decisions or more like ALL medical decisions are not in your hands. People are told what will happen to them and that's it.

    That is just unacceptable. I want to decide what procedure I want done. If not me then my family. Not some "government admin".
    And I want to add, people in UK can also get medical insurance like the US for private treatment. But noone does because visits to emergency to cancer treatments to kids being born to eevry kind of treatment is free for everyone if they go through the NHS. Whether they are homeless or rich.

    Someone from the US lecturing us on our healthcare...yeah, no.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    People in UK are free to also get treatment privately. So if a decision is not to their liking and they have dough they can go to a private clinic. And what are you on about, everyone is free to decide what treatment they want or don't want. If they don't like a treatment then noone is forcing them to undergo it.

    Unlike the US however we don't have people dying en masse because a benign treatment costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. The vast amount of proper get fantastic free treatment, I have had family her free cancer treatment. I myself have had procedures many times, on time and free of cost. The biggest issue is waiting times which is because of staff shortages and not enough people or doctors in the system.
    I thought everyone pays a good portion every paycheck for healthcare. If that is the case, how is it free? Unless my understanding of this wrong.

    I know of people who have had treatment for cancer. I can tell you from diagnosis to surgery was 3.5 weeks. All done. No waiting. Time is very critical in terms of cancer treatment. Even something as trivial as a dentist cleaning is quick. I just call and setup a convenient time. It may be couple days or a week. All set and done.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    And I want to add, people in UK can also get medical insurance like the US for private treatment. But noone does because visits to emergency to cancer treatments to kids being born to eevry kind of treatment is free for everyone if they go through the NHS. Whether they are homeless or rich.

    Someone from the US lecturing us on our healthcare...yeah, no.
    Again, how is free you are paying for it. Also, not lecturing. Just trying to learn how things work in UK, that's all.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    And I want to add, people in UK can also get medical insurance like the US for private treatment. But noone does because visits to emergency to cancer treatments to kids being born to eevry kind of treatment is free for everyone if they go through the NHS. Whether they are homeless or rich.

    Someone from the US lecturing us on our healthcare...yeah, no.
    Does this mean that people can skip the payment to NHS and go for private insurance?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    I thought everyone pays a good portion every paycheck for healthcare. If that is the case, how is it free? Unless my understanding of this wrong.

    I know of people who have had treatment for cancer. I can tell you from diagnosis to surgery was 3.5 weeks. All done. No waiting. Time is very critical in terms of cancer treatment. Even something as trivial as a dentist cleaning is quick. I just call and setup a convenient time. It may be couple days or a week. All set and done.
    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    Again, how is free you are paying for it. Also, not lecturing. Just trying to learn how things work in UK, that's all.
    My apology if I came across as aggressive. Noone is paying anything from our paycheck, at all, for the NHS. A bus driver or a GP or a homeless person....noone is having any healthcare $$$ being deducted from their salary whether you're employed or unemployed or on benefits. Its free.

    If I have an issue, say a nerve problem, the only problem would be waiting for the treatment for a few extra weeks due to staff shortages but otherwise from consultation to post-op its free. A homeless person can go to the hospital and be treated without cost.

    You CAN go private as well, either by paying a lump sum to private clinics or choosing private insurance for private clinicis out of your own pocket. Eg if someone has a back/lumbar problem and needs surgery, its not an emergency but the pain can be annoying. They can either wait for a few weeks and get it sorted for free or pay some private clinic. Almost noone does that, or atleast in my experience noone has ever done that except once where someone needed a GP appointment within a day instead of 4 days. Otherwise if someone really needs to see a doctor they just go to the NHS walk-in centers without cost.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    Does this mean that people can skip the payment to NHS and go for private insurance?
    Yes but noone does that. Unless a treatment is emergency or life threatening people wait and get it treated for free rather than to go private clinics which are very expensive.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    My apology if I came across as aggressive. Noone is paying anything from our paycheck, at all, for the NHS. A bus driver or a GP or a homeless person....noone is having any healthcare $$$ being deducted from their salary whether you're employed or unemployed or on benefits. Its free.

    If I have an issue, say a nerve problem, the only problem would be waiting for the treatment for a few extra weeks due to staff shortages but otherwise from consultation to post-op its free. A homeless person can go to the hospital and be treated without cost.

    You CAN go private as well, either by paying a lump sum to private clinics or choosing private insurance for private clinicis out of your own pocket. Eg if someone has a back/lumbar problem and needs surgery, its not an emergency but the pain can be annoying. They can either wait for a few weeks and get it sorted for free or pay some private clinic. Almost noone does that, or atleast in my experience noone has ever done that except once where someone needed a GP appointment within a day instead of 4 days. Otherwise if someone really needs to see a doctor they just go to the NHS walk-in centers without cost.
    My understanding was completely wrong. I always thought that some kind of NHS Tax was taken out of each paycheck.

    But nothing is free. Everything costs money. I am sure taxes are work.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by U$ofA View Post
    My understanding was completely wrong. I always thought that some kind of NHS Tax was taken out of each paycheck.

    But nothing is free. Everything costs money. I am sure taxes are work.
    We don't pay a special NHS tax. An unemployed person is paying zero tax but can get free treatment for life and countless times. Only tax people pay on their income is the income tax and national insurance (which goes to your pension). That's it.
    Last edited by Pakpak; 5th August 2020 at 21:12.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Because it isn’t a private hospital, so the clinicians will not carry on applying care as long as they are paid.

    NHS clinicians have finite resources to satisfy infinite demand so must apply health rationing to improve quality and quantity of life as much as possible. For instance if I need a heart transplant and a younger man does too and there is one heart available then he gets it as it will likely add more years to his life than mine. Likewise if a child’s situation appears hopeless then the clinicians will apply the bed and life support to one that is more likely to have a better health outcome.
    Because British people are stupid enough to keep on voting for war criminals , peados and upper lipped selfish fools. You get what you deserve sometimes.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Because British people are stupid enough to keep on voting for war criminals , peados and upper lipped selfish fools. You get what you deserve sometimes.
    That's why this clap thing is nonsense. No point clapping when people will vote in Boris and his ilk. Who btw stopped more bills aimed at better pay towards underpaid overworked nurses.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    That's why this clap thing is nonsense. No point clapping when people will vote in Boris and his ilk. Who btw stopped more bills aimed at better pay towards underpaid overworked nurses.
    Hundred of NHS workers have marched on Downing Street to protest "coward" Boris Johnson and demand an immediate pay rise.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/n...-a4511961.html

    You're prob aware but others arent, we need to stick up for the doctors and nurses against the elite, only way things will improve.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    My apology if I came across as aggressive. Noone is paying anything from our paycheck, at all, for the NHS. A bus driver or a GP or a homeless person....noone is having any healthcare $$$ being deducted from their salary whether you're employed or unemployed or on benefits. Its free.
    Wrong. Anyone employed, and pays taxes via HMRC in the UK, does indeed pay for the NHS - it's called National Insurance.

    The difference between USA and UK, is that the NHS is free to USE, unlike in the USA.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Wrong. Anyone employed, and pays taxes via HMRC in the UK, does indeed pay for the NHS - it's called National Insurance.

    The difference between USA and UK, is that the NHS is free to USE, unlike in the USA.
    Yes national insurance covers everything from pensions or what is known as state entitlements of which health case forms a part of. My point was there is not a specific 'NHS tax' we pay. And someone unemployed who doesn't pay any taxes at all can still get free treatment regardless.

    Your second paragraph I already spent explaining to the other poster.
    Last edited by Pakpak; 6th August 2020 at 04:28.

  57. #57
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    I suggest some of you login into your HMRC account, check your annual tax expenditure by the government, and you will see how to UK employee taxes are spent, some of it towards defence, some to education, some to NHS etc.

    The taxpayer is funding the NHS; while making the NHS free to use. Don't be deluded into thinking the NHS is 'free' it's not, the taxpayer is paying for it.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...how-nhs-funded

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I suggest some of you login into your HMRC account, check your annual tax expenditure by the government, and you will see how to UK employee taxes are spent, some of it towards defence, some to education, some to NHS etc.

    The taxpayer is funding the NHS; while making the NHS free to use. Don't be deluded into thinking the NHS is 'free' it's not, the taxpayer is paying for it.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...how-nhs-funded
    This is what national insurant pays for
    https://www.gov.uk/national-insuranc...surance-is-for

    The point was someone doesn't need to pay a tax to use it, in the case of someone unemployed or someone homeless, which was what I meant . Unlike the US where unless someone has insurance all good otherwise they can't access healthcare without a hefty bill.
    Last edited by Pakpak; 6th August 2020 at 04:33.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/n...-a4511961.html

    You're prob aware but others arent, we need to stick up for the doctors and nurses against the elite, only way things will improve.
    Not many will as you've seen before on PP alone. And it will keep resulting in a doctor and nurse exodus which will lead to more strain than already the NHS is under.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    This is what national insurant pays for
    https://www.gov.uk/national-insuranc...surance-is-for

    The point was someone doesn't need to pay a tax to use it, in the case of someone unemployed or someone homeless.
    That is true. No one has to pay to use the NHS which makes it one of the best health services in world.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    That is true. No one has to pay to use the NHS which makes it one of the best health services in world.
    Correct. I have been to many countries in Europe and back home, NHS is a godsend. Noone has to worry about if they're insured for it or not. And one hopes it lasts.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/n...-a4511961.html

    You're prob aware but others arent, we need to stick up for the doctors and nurses against the elite, only way things will improve.
    I would stick up for the nurses, but not the doctors. These doctors are on the payroll, and are paid to prescribe medicine, which the cost of is claimed back from the government.

    It's all rigged, and we've seen these so called specialist doctors rinse the C19 pandemic too.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Correct. I have been to many countries in Europe and back home, NHS is a godsend. Noone has to worry about if they're insured for it or not. And one hopes it lasts.
    I saw a really heart breaking meme today about a couple in the USA who did what they were told; get an education, get a job, save money, stay out debt, live within your means, and they ended up with a near million cash savings towards retirement. The wife got cancer, their medicial insurance didn't cover her illness, and all their savings spent on her treatment, then house remortgaged, all due to her medical bill.

    She died, he ended up losing the house too.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I saw a really heart breaking meme today about a couple in the USA who did what they were told; get an education, get a job, save money, stay out debt, live within your means, and they ended up with a near million cash savings towards retirement. The wife got cancer, their medicial insurance didn't cover her illness, and all their savings spent on her treatment, then house remortgaged, all due to her medical bill.

    She died, he ended up losing the house too.
    It's a sad reality. One of our close friends is a nurse in the US. The stories we have heard of bills and people dying just because no insurance is pretty sad. And it will never change because of the money the insurance providers make. For me healthcare along with things like water should never be charged any money. As it's a basic human right. And for a super power like the US it's pretty shoddy how there is still discrimination when it comes someone getting treatment.


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