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  1. #1
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    Holding disappointed with Pakistan, Australia and England not taking a knee during their series

    Expressed his disappointment on his YouTube channel, saying that he doesnt know why Pakistan didnt take a knee in solidarity with BLM and also mentioned statement by Australia saying that they had discussed it and they didnt need to do that in their series.
    Last edited by Saj; 10th September 2020 at 23:06.


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  2. #2
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    In respect of Michael Holding’s interview on Sky Sports from today, the ECB has issued the following statement.

    Official Statement – Michael Holding Sky Sports Interview

    As an organisation, we hugely respect the views of Sky Sports commentator and former West Indies international, Michael Holding.

    Many of cricket’s teams, both domestic and international, took the knee in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter Movement for their opening games, with the Men's Test Team continuing throughout the entire series with the West Indies.

    Our response to the Black Lives Matter debate, has been to view the issue alongside the whole inclusion and diversity space, to ensure that long-term and sustainable change happens for all communities who are not treated equally. We remain committed to this philosophy.

    Our refreshed inclusion and diversity strategy, published at the start of the West Indies Series, commits to several comprehensive initiatives that focus on eliminating discrimination from all areas of cricket.

    England's men’s and women’s players all remain committed to using their reach and influence to keep promoting inclusion and diversity in perpetuity, for the betterment of cricket and sport. We understand the importance of symbolism, and its power to keep an issue high on the agenda, our goal is to ensure we deliver both reach and change.

    The ECB’s work is ongoing in this space, alongside all of our partners across the game. We will continue to update, share our progress and be accountable for driving critical change for all those who do not currently feel as if cricket is a game for them.


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  3. #3
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    No need of these fake gestures. The BLM movement has been milked enough already.

    Holding always loves a good moan. There is nothing that he doesnít complain about.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No need of these fake gestures. The BLM movement has been milked enough already.

    Holding always loves a good moan. There is nothing that he doesnít complain about.
    Yep people fignting for equal rights for centuries are just milking and moaning. Pathetic pathetic mentality, almost inhuman

    And of course cricketers actions have no impact on the next generation who look up to them

  5. #5
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    ECB should have pushed for it during the Pakistan series.

    I don't know why they did not as Pakistan would have most likely obliged.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No need of these fake gestures. The BLM movement has been milked enough already.

    Holding always loves a good moan. There is nothing that he doesn’t complain about.
    Then people with this mentality come and demean their entire agenda and we start back at square one.

  7. #7
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    Holding is being irrational here.

    Pakistan went there to play cricket and we got a great series.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    Not all players from all countries need to take knees. That's too much.

    Holding is being irrational here.
    He is just expressing his personal disappointment. Cricketers make a gesture about so many things, pakistani have themselves made gestures in the past

  9. #9
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    There is no point forcing a gesture.
    Pakistan has too many of its own problems currently.

    If the players understood and have a good idea of whats happening, they should had taken a knee. But if they are not well aware about it, than there is just no point in doing it for the sake of it.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    He is just expressing his personal disappointment. Cricketers make a gesture about so many things, pakistani have themselves made gestures in the past
    Will Michael Holding take a knee for Palestinian people or Rohingya people? Answer is highly unlikely.

    We all have our own causes and priorities. It is what it is.

    I am not saying BLM is not important. I am simply saying different people will likely care about different causes.



  11. #11
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    Enforced virtue signalling

  12. #12
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    Fake virtue signalling is repulsive.

    Holding is spouting rubbish here.

  13. #13
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    Personal choice I would say.

    Nobody should be forced or expected to take the knee if they don't want to.



  14. #14
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    What good does taking a knee do? I'm happy that they didn't do that non sense.

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    Tomorrow if someone asks Holding to wear a black armband for Kashmiris, would he do it? Next, Palestine. Its a slippery slope.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Yep people fignting for equal rights for centuries are just milking and moaning. Pathetic pathetic mentality, almost inhuman

    And of course cricketers actions have no impact on the next generation who look up to them
    Quote Originally Posted by hashimafzal View Post
    Then people with this mentality come and demean their entire agenda and we start back at square one.
    This is pointless virtue signaling.

    The next generation of cricket fans will not treat blacks any differently because cricketers took a knee.

    These fake, superficial gestures never have and never will make any impact.

  17. #17
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    Michael Holding says England's decision to stop taking a knee before matches is out of line with global attempts to raise awareness about institutionalised racism and inequality.

    The West Indies great spoke passionately in conjunction with Sky Sports colleague Ebony Rainford-Brent in July about the need to bring about meaningful change in society in the wake of the death of George Floyd while in police custody in Minnesota in May.

    His death sparked worldwide public protests and sports stars subsequently took a knee in a show of unprecedented support for the Black Lives Matter movement.

    England and West Indies cricketers, along with officials and backroom staff, did so at the start of each of July's three Tests between the sides with the home side doing so again during their ODI series against Ireland.

    England and West Indies players took a knee ahead of the first Test at The Ageas Bowl in support of the Black Lives Matter movement
    But Holding has now expressed his disappointment at England's failure to continue the practice for their series against both Pakistan and Australia, accusing the England and Wales Cricket Board and Australia captain Aaron Finch of serving up a "lame" excuse for ending the practice at a time when many other sports teams, including England's football team, remain committed to it.

    "Now that the West Indies team has gone home, that doesn't mean that you still shouldn't be respecting the message and exactly what it stands for," he said.

    Former West Indies fast bowler Michael Holding says the world must accept the Black Lives Matter movement now to bring 'equality for all'
    "If you go back to when taking a knee started and what it stood for, or stands for, it goes back to Colin Kaepernick in America, who took a knee because he wanted to bring attention to the racism and police brutality against people of colour in that country.

    "Yes, it is more acute in the United States than in most other places but people around the entire world took on the mantle of spreading the word and getting this message out that it is time for equality and time for equal justice, and all that.

    "So everybody, all over the world, whether you are black, white, brown, pink or green - you saw the demonstrations all over the world. It was no longer just a black versus white thing; it was a matter of humanity coming together and saying 'listen, we need everyone to be treated equally'.

    "So for Pakistan and England not to then take that signal - because you are not doing anything other than going down on one knee - you are not chanting anything, you are not saying anything, all you are doing is making a signal to keep the awareness going.

    "Neither team did it and the ECB came out with a pretty lame statement, as far as I am concerned."

    Replying to Holding's comments, the ECB said: "Our response to the Black Lives Matter debate has been to view the issue alongside the whole inclusion and diversity space, to ensure that long-term and sustainable change happens for all communities who are not treated equally. We remain committed to this philosophy.

    "Our refreshed inclusion and diversity strategy, published at the start of the West Indies series, commits to several comprehensive initiatives that focus on eliminating discrimination from all areas of cricket."

    ECB Statement in full
    "As an organisation, we hugely respect the views of Sky Sports commentator and former West Indies international, Michael Holding.

    "Many of cricket’s teams, both domestic and international, took the knee in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter Movement for their opening games, with the Men's Test Team continuing throughout the entire series with the West Indies.

    "Our response to the Black Lives Matter debate, has been to view the issue alongside the whole inclusion and diversity space, to ensure that long-term and sustainable change happens for all communities who are not treated equally. We remain committed to this philosophy.

    "Our refreshed inclusion and diversity strategy, published at the start of the West Indies Series, commits to several comprehensive initiatives that focus on eliminating discrimination from all areas of cricket.

    "England's men’s and women’s players all remain committed to using their reach and influence to keep promoting inclusion and diversity in perpetuity, for the betterment of cricket and sport. We understand the importance of symbolism, and its power to keep an issue high on the agenda, our goal is to ensure we deliver both reach and change.

    "The ECB’s work is ongoing in this space, alongside all of our partners across the game. We will continue to update, share our progress and be accountable for driving critical change for all those who do not currently feel as if cricket is a game for them."

    Ahead of the current white-ball series against England, Australia captain Finch explained that - after raising the matter with opposing skipper Eoin Morgan - his team would not take the knee in a show of solidarity, believing that "the education around it is more important than the protest".

    But Holding believes that approach places too narrow a focus on the long-standing issue of systematic inequality.

    "It is not a matter of which one is more important. Education is very important - I said that when I had my talk on Sky - but you can't just say that education is the most important thing and do nothing else. We have still got to keep the awareness going.

    “I don’t care about any politics behind the Black Lives Matter – I just care about those three words. Black Lives Matter. And it’s time for the world to accept that black lives matter and move the entire world towards that agreement and that realisation because it is obvious that we need to do something in this world if we are going to get equality for all races and all nations.”
    Michael Holding

    "How long is that education going to take? This thing has been going on for centuries. Are you just going to educate everyone and change the world in a week or two? You have still got to keep the awareness going.

    "Until people are satisfied that we are seeing moves in the right direction and that things are changing, you still need to keep the awareness going. If people see somebody kneeling they might not know anything about it and they say 'why is that person kneeling?' or 'why is that team kneeling?'. It is explained to them and then they understand and you keep it going and going and going."

    He added: "He [Finch] is saying is that he's glad that he is part of a sport where no-one is barred from playing, irrespective of your race, your gender, your ethnicity, your religion.

    “I’m not going to force anyone to try and do anything that they don’t want to do. I would hope that anyone who gets involved in something like this does so because they want to get involved and not because they think that they need to show people that they are joining in and, as they call it, being on a bandwagon.”
    Michael Holding

    "Well, I don't know any sport where anyone is barred from playing because of anything at all. So that's a pretty lame statement and what that says to me, actually, is that if the apartheid regime in South Africa had allowed multi-racial sport in South Africa and kept the apartheid laws then everything would have been ok.

    "No - everything would not have been ok. I'm not here to try to tell people and to force people to do what they do not want to do. If you think you do not need to sympathise with and recognise the movement, just say that. Don't come up with lame excuses."

    Cricket Australia statement

    “Cricket Australia plays a vital role in respectfully engaging with communities and stakeholders of many diverse cultural backgrounds right across Australia.

    “Our Reconciliation Action Plan vision of Cricket Connecting Country comes with it accountability for cricket to be a leader and use our influence to have a positive social impact on our community.

    “This begins with respect, understanding and an appreciation of different cultures and abilities.

    “It is also about acknowledging historical truths positive and negative, so we can celebrate and reflect on success and right the wrongs of past events.

    “There is considerable work being done to further recognise these important issues during the home summer on the First Nations and Traditional land and waters encompassing where we are privileged to live, work and play the great game of cricket.”

    https://www.skysports.com/cricket/ne...stralia-series
    Last edited by MenInG; 11th September 2020 at 02:18.


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    He is just expressing his personal disappointment. Cricketers make a gesture about so many things, pakistani have themselves made gestures in the past
    Do you think there a chance we will see this gesture in IPL?

  19. #19
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    To be honest who gives a toss about taking a knee or posting a tweet. It means jack and if you feel strongly about this then try doing something active using your celebrity status as oppose to this meaningless hipster garbage. Taking a knee won't bring Floyd back. If you want to challenge someone challenge and call out corrupters like CNN, Fox, government officials and the police dept that hired those morons.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Michael Holding says England's decision to stop taking a knee before matches is out of line with global attempts to raise awareness about institutionalised racism and inequality.

    The West Indies great spoke passionately in conjunction with Sky Sports colleague Ebony Rainford-Brent in July about the need to bring about meaningful change in society in the wake of the death of George Floyd while in police custody in Minnesota in May.

    His death sparked worldwide public protests and sports stars subsequently took a knee in a show of unprecedented support for the Black Lives Matter movement.

    England and West Indies cricketers, along with officials and backroom staff, did so at the start of each of July's three Tests between the sides with the home side doing so again during their ODI series against Ireland.

    England and West Indies players took a knee ahead of the first Test at The Ageas Bowl in support of the Black Lives Matter movement
    But Holding has now expressed his disappointment at England's failure to continue the practice for their series against both Pakistan and Australia, accusing the England and Wales Cricket Board and Australia captain Aaron Finch of serving up a "lame" excuse for ending the practice at a time when many other sports teams, including England's football team, remain committed to it.

    "Now that the West Indies team has gone home, that doesn't mean that you still shouldn't be respecting the message and exactly what it stands for," he said.

    Former West Indies fast bowler Michael Holding says the world must accept the Black Lives Matter movement now to bring 'equality for all'
    "If you go back to when taking a knee started and what it stood for, or stands for, it goes back to Colin Kaepernick in America, who took a knee because he wanted to bring attention to the racism and police brutality against people of colour in that country.

    "Yes, it is more acute in the United States than in most other places but people around the entire world took on the mantle of spreading the word and getting this message out that it is time for equality and time for equal justice, and all that.

    "So everybody, all over the world, whether you are black, white, brown, pink or green - you saw the demonstrations all over the world. It was no longer just a black versus white thing; it was a matter of humanity coming together and saying 'listen, we need everyone to be treated equally'.

    "So for Pakistan and England not to then take that signal - because you are not doing anything other than going down on one knee - you are not chanting anything, you are not saying anything, all you are doing is making a signal to keep the awareness going.

    "Neither team did it and the ECB came out with a pretty lame statement, as far as I am concerned."

    Replying to Holding's comments, the ECB said: "Our response to the Black Lives Matter debate has been to view the issue alongside the whole inclusion and diversity space, to ensure that long-term and sustainable change happens for all communities who are not treated equally. We remain committed to this philosophy.

    "Our refreshed inclusion and diversity strategy, published at the start of the West Indies series, commits to several comprehensive initiatives that focus on eliminating discrimination from all areas of cricket."

    ECB Statement in full
    "As an organisation, we hugely respect the views of Sky Sports commentator and former West Indies international, Michael Holding.

    "Many of cricket’s teams, both domestic and international, took the knee in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter Movement for their opening games, with the Men's Test Team continuing throughout the entire series with the West Indies.

    "Our response to the Black Lives Matter debate, has been to view the issue alongside the whole inclusion and diversity space, to ensure that long-term and sustainable change happens for all communities who are not treated equally. We remain committed to this philosophy.

    "Our refreshed inclusion and diversity strategy, published at the start of the West Indies Series, commits to several comprehensive initiatives that focus on eliminating discrimination from all areas of cricket.

    "England's men’s and women’s players all remain committed to using their reach and influence to keep promoting inclusion and diversity in perpetuity, for the betterment of cricket and sport. We understand the importance of symbolism, and its power to keep an issue high on the agenda, our goal is to ensure we deliver both reach and change.

    "The ECB’s work is ongoing in this space, alongside all of our partners across the game. We will continue to update, share our progress and be accountable for driving critical change for all those who do not currently feel as if cricket is a game for them."

    Ahead of the current white-ball series against England, Australia captain Finch explained that - after raising the matter with opposing skipper Eoin Morgan - his team would not take the knee in a show of solidarity, believing that "the education around it is more important than the protest".

    But Holding believes that approach places too narrow a focus on the long-standing issue of systematic inequality.

    "It is not a matter of which one is more important. Education is very important - I said that when I had my talk on Sky - but you can't just say that education is the most important thing and do nothing else. We have still got to keep the awareness going.

    “I don’t care about any politics behind the Black Lives Matter – I just care about those three words. Black Lives Matter. And it’s time for the world to accept that black lives matter and move the entire world towards that agreement and that realisation because it is obvious that we need to do something in this world if we are going to get equality for all races and all nations.”
    Michael Holding

    "How long is that education going to take? This thing has been going on for centuries. Are you just going to educate everyone and change the world in a week or two? You have still got to keep the awareness going.

    "Until people are satisfied that we are seeing moves in the right direction and that things are changing, you still need to keep the awareness going. If people see somebody kneeling they might not know anything about it and they say 'why is that person kneeling?' or 'why is that team kneeling?'. It is explained to them and then they understand and you keep it going and going and going."

    He added: "He [Finch] is saying is that he's glad that he is part of a sport where no-one is barred from playing, irrespective of your race, your gender, your ethnicity, your religion.

    “I’m not going to force anyone to try and do anything that they don’t want to do. I would hope that anyone who gets involved in something like this does so because they want to get involved and not because they think that they need to show people that they are joining in and, as they call it, being on a bandwagon.”
    Michael Holding

    "Well, I don't know any sport where anyone is barred from playing because of anything at all. So that's a pretty lame statement and what that says to me, actually, is that if the apartheid regime in South Africa had allowed multi-racial sport in South Africa and kept the apartheid laws then everything would have been ok.

    "No - everything would not have been ok. I'm not here to try to tell people and to force people to do what they do not want to do. If you think you do not need to sympathise with and recognise the movement, just say that. Don't come up with lame excuses."

    Cricket Australia statement

    “Cricket Australia plays a vital role in respectfully engaging with communities and stakeholders of many diverse cultural backgrounds right across Australia.

    “Our Reconciliation Action Plan vision of Cricket Connecting Country comes with it accountability for cricket to be a leader and use our influence to have a positive social impact on our community.

    “This begins with respect, understanding and an appreciation of different cultures and abilities.

    “It is also about acknowledging historical truths positive and negative, so we can celebrate and reflect on success and right the wrongs of past events.

    “There is considerable work being done to further recognise these important issues during the home summer on the First Nations and Traditional land and waters encompassing where we are privileged to live, work and play the great game of cricket.”

    https://www.skysports.com/cricket/ne...stralia-series
    Black Lives Matter is not a movement that simply encapsulates Black Lives Matter. There is a certain level of totalitarianism to the movement which does not complement our views on many relevant social and political issues.

    Unfortunately, BLM like so many movements in the past has become part of popular culture without anyone dissecting the merits of the movement at large. Yes, Black Lives Should Matter, but simplifying the subject to kneeling in solidarity speaks to a limited view of the world.


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Do you think there a chance we will see this gesture in IPL?
    Not a chance.

  22. #22
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    The knee is not the only way to stand up against racism. There is no need to attack Pakistan and Australia here. Tackling racism needs to be done from a younger age. Not just in sports but around the world if governments tackled and educated about rasicm from a younger age , it would benefit society more than taking the knee.

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    Not too late we can always take the Knee in the next series. Like the Zimbabwe series.

  24. #24
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    What's the harm in taking a knee for just a minute? Nobody is saying we have to solve racism. It should have been done

  25. #25
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    The point Mikey makes is very valid. Few of any groups in history have had to go through so much for so long. However, Taking the knee is symbolic and has no practical impact on the lives of poor black people and never will. As I have said before on these pages, the black elite need to stop hijacking the issue and fight for educational opportunities for the poor rather looking to use it for symbolism.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by unemployedgm View Post
    Not a chance.
    Then I guess there is no point for people to be judging others not doing the symbolic gesture.

  27. #27
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    Its a pretty sensitive issue and I think a lot of awareness has been raised in recent time due to well known incidents. People who were going to self reflect would have already done that by now and people who still are incapable to learn and to become better humans can not be changed by any gesture.

    It would have been fine if they would have done it but, not doing so doesnt mean that the players are not supportive of eradication of racism.
    Last edited by Titan24; 11th September 2020 at 07:00.

  28. #28
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    Honestly, I am sick to death of this black lives matters and taking the knee nonsense. All this started because a cop in America killed George Floyd, a criminal who has been given that status of a martyr. Yes, racism is wrong but taking the knee isnít going to solve it. Itís a pointless trendy gesture and nothing more.

    And Iím a firm believer that sports and politics shouldnít mix. Wasnít Moeen Ali asked to remove his ďFree PalestineĒ wristband a few years ago? So, Moeen isnít allowed to show support for his fellow Muslims who are dying but everyone has to show solidarity with the black lives matter movement, because some white cop killed some black guy who was a criminal. Give me a break.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Yep people fignting for equal rights for centuries are just milking and moaning. Pathetic pathetic mentality, almost inhuman

    And of course cricketers actions have no impact on the next generation who look up to them
    Pakistanis like him are an embarrassment to those that understand the context and history behind this movement. People with limited understanding of complex and sensitive issues should not be allowed to comment on them.

    This guy has probably never stepped a foot outside Pakistan and has no knowledge of the systemic oppression that takes place against marginalized groups in the US.

  30. #30
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    What does Black lives matter have to do with Pakistan? How many black people live in Pakistan? Is there systemic racism against Black people in Pakistan? NO

    This is a grass roots movement from the USA due to systemic racism there. The idea is to protest against systemic racism against a marginalised group. Unfortunately, BLM has been hijacked by nincompoops lately, but that should not be used to beat down the actual movement. It still stands as a movement to stop systemic racism against blacks in the US.

    But it has nothing to do with Pakistan. Some might point out that the movement could be for marginalised groups in general. They might have a point. But does any common Pakistani understand what black lives matter is? Would they be able to identify with a slogan that is BLACK lives matter? NO. So the Pakistan team (or even Indian team) taking the knee would be an empty gesture.

    If they took a symbolic action against poverty or marginalised groups in their country, that would have a significant impact. Not something on BLM that no one has really heard about. Indians and Pakistanis have enough injustices going on in their countries that they need to focus on.

    I would understand though if England and Australia took the knee as they do have systemic racism (not to the same extent as the USA). However in England at least, the story needs to be changed from just pulling down of some statues. From a British perspective, the ill effects of colonialism needs to be taught in schools, rather than just glorifying it. That would be a victory for BLM in the UK. For the Australians, it probably needs to be around their treatment of indigenous people.

  31. #31
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    I strongly disagree with Holding. You shouldn't force your political stance on others. Besides, why is taking a knee the only gesture to feel respect towards Black cricketers? Hypothetically, will Holding do a headstand against cruelty towards animals?

  32. #32
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    Whatever Mike, Forcing people to hypocritically take a knee is like Nazi Germany forcing its citizens to heil Hitler.

  33. #33
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    You have to convince people to join your cause. Not force them. Shaming only works when other party is guilty. US whites exploited slaves for centuries and repressed black people till now. Racism is real and its terrible but Pakistanis didn't run plantations nor are they killing black people like Americans are doing right now.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweep_shot View Post
    Will Michael Holding take a knee for Palestinian people or Rohingya people? Answer is highly unlikely.

    We all have our own causes and priorities. It is what it is.

    I am not saying BLM is not important. I am simply saying different people will likely care about different causes.
    Well said

  35. #35
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    What do you expect Pakistanis to do? They have been racist forever to dark skinned people, consistently ridiculing them. How hypocritical does it look to take the knee?

  36. #36
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    Milking racism?? What a pathetic choice of words and mentality. But then I am not surprised who said it..shows his frame of mind and psyche

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No need of these fake gestures. The BLM movement has been milked enough already.

    Holding always loves a good moan. There is nothing that he doesn’t complain about.
    Disgusting comment. Once again you're showing your ignorance when it comes to systemic racism outside Pakistan.

  38. #38
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    Considering it wasn't so long ago when Sarfraz racially abused Andile Phehlukwayo and given that the PCB refused to axe him as captain (until after the WC), I wouldn't have had high hopes of the Pakistani team taking the knee LOL.
    Last edited by topspin; 11th September 2020 at 18:52.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Disgusting comment. Once again you're showing your ignorance when it comes to systemic racism outside Pakistan.
    You can say what you want.

    The so-called anti-racism movements are quickly politicized, exploited and lack credibility in general.

    Not everyone can relate to BLM. Countries like Pakistan have nothing to do with. No point in forcing it down our throats.

    Keep us away from this taking the knee drama or whatever.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Considering it wasn't so long ago when Sarfraz racially abused Andile Phehlukwayo and given that the PCB refused to axe him as captain (until after the WC), I wouldn't have had high hopes of the Pakistani team taking the knee LOL.
    Different context.

    Racism against blacks in the West is not the same as the casual racism against blacks in Pakistan.

    We donít have an equivalent for the N word; we donít have a history of black slavery.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You can say what you want.

    The so-called anti-racism movements are quickly politicized, exploited and lack credibility in general.

    Not everyone can relate to BLM. Countries like Pakistan have nothing to do with. No point in forcing it down our throats.

    Keep us away from this taking the knee drama or whatever.
    Now I know why you dislike hip-hop. Just because you can't relate to their struggles, no need to hate bro.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Different context.

    Racism against blacks in the West is not the same as the casual racism against blacks in Pakistan.

    We don’t have an equivalent for the N word; we don’t have a history of black slavery.
    If you remember after the incident, Ehsan Mani was trying to brush it under the carpet. My point is you can't trust PCB to take the matter of racism against black people seriously, when the Chairman isn't setting the right example.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You can say what you want.

    The so-called anti-racism movements are quickly politicized, exploited and lack credibility in general.

    Not everyone can relate to BLM. Countries like Pakistan have nothing to do with. No point in forcing it down our throats.

    Keep us away from this taking the knee drama or whatever.
    Take a knee for a movement which was started due to a criminal (wrongfully) was killed. No thanks.

  44. #44
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    We arent discussing the Floyd case on this thread.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    We arent discussing the Floyd case on this thread.
    We are though.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Now I know why you dislike hip-hop. Just because you can't relate to their struggles, no need to hate bro.
    So if someone dislikes hip hop, they are racist? Well, I must be a racist too as I hate hip hop with a passion.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_KING View Post
    So if someone dislikes hip hop, they are racist? Well, I must be a racist too as I hate hip hop with a passion.
    Didn't say or imply Mamoon was a racist. You obviously didn't understand the context but I guess that's expected from a Misbah fan.

    A lot of black rappers mention their struggles of growing up with inequality. Mamoon dislikes the BLM, so it comes to no surprise he also hates rap.

    No one cares if you hate about hip hop with a passion. My response to that is cool story bro, so goodbye.
    Last edited by topspin; 11th September 2020 at 20:03.

  48. #48
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    I don't want to get too political and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. Maybe it's because I live in the USA, maybe I just care too much...but some of these comments I'm reading are really upsetting me.

    The USA was built on the dehumanization and mistreatment of black people as slaves for hundreds of years. Systemic racism is real and still a problem here. Sure the movement has it's roots in the USA but it's message is universal. Saying there aren't as many black people in Pakistan or there's no systemic racism in Pakistan is not a reason to simply dismiss the movement. Racism in cricket is terrifyingly still present across all nations. Even in Pakistan there is racism...calling it "casual" doesn't make it ok.

    Holding isn't saying we need to solve racism or suggesting that taking a knee will fix problems. Just show support for black lives across the globe, some support for black people who are being killed unjustly and are continued to be treated unfairly by the state. Taking a knee is far from "forcing it down our throats" or similar to forcing "german citizens to heil Hitler" (what!?!?)....It takes a minute to just say "Yes I believe that black lives matter, black people are being killed unjustly, and racism is very real"

  49. #49
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    I think you're also misunderstanding the context here. Just because one doesn't take a knee or dislikes hip-hop, doesn't mean they hate black people or are racist. Maybe @Mamoon's choice of words was harsh, but he is right in that BLM is culturally alien to Pakistanis and Indians and we shouldn't have to be lectured on following the protocol (of taking a knee) of BLM (a political organisation).

    Had Pakistanis (or Indians at the upcoming IPL) taken a knee, it's fine and nice but they don't have to. When Phillip Hughes passed away, almost every cricketing nation honoured him with the resting bat outside their home/ground. It was a voluntary gesture as his untimely death touched everyone's heart. No one mandated that gesture and no one chastised each other for not following that gesture either.

    Like @JattMaula and @Rana said above, you can make a case to convince people to your cause but it should not be made a mandatory courtesy. Also, racism needs to be tackled at a serious level not these gestures. I say this even though I have faced racism wherever I went (being called a Kaaliya throughout my schooling as a South Indian growing up in Delhi, was called Osama in Arkansas, Michigan, Washington etc, and P*** in London) and understand the emotional turmoil it causes on someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Didn't say or imply Mamoon was a racist. You obviously didn't understand the context but I guess that's expected from a Misbah fan.

    A lot of black rappers mention their struggles of growing up with inequality. Mamoon dislikes the BLM, so it comes to no surprise he also hates rap.

    No one cares if you hate about hip hop with a passion. My response to that is cool story bro, so goodbye.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmadharis1 View Post
    I don't want to get too political and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. Maybe it's because I live in the USA, maybe I just care too much...but some of these comments I'm reading are really upsetting me.

    The USA was built on the dehumanization and mistreatment of black people as slaves for hundreds of years. Systemic racism is real and still a problem here. Sure the movement has it's roots in the USA but it's message is universal. Saying there aren't as many black people in Pakistan or there's no systemic racism in Pakistan is not a reason to simply dismiss the movement. Racism in cricket is terrifyingly still present across all nations. Even in Pakistan there is racism...calling it "casual" doesn't make it ok.

    Holding isn't saying we need to solve racism or suggesting that taking a knee will fix problems. Just show support for black lives across the globe, some support for black people who are being killed unjustly and are continued to be treated unfairly by the state. Taking a knee is far from "forcing it down our throats" or similar to forcing "german citizens to heil Hitler" (what!?!?)....It takes a minute to just say "Yes I believe that black lives matter, black people are being killed unjustly, and racism is very real"
    Best post I've come across in this thread.

    You'll probably be informed by others about "misunderstanding the context" here.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharmaji View Post
    I think you're also misunderstanding the context here. Just because one doesn't take a knee or dislikes hip-hop, doesn't mean they hate black people or are racist. Maybe @Mamoon's choice of words was harsh, but he is right in that BLM is culturally alien to Pakistanis and Indians and we shouldn't have to be lectured on following the protocol (of taking a knee) of BLM (a political organisation).

    Had Pakistanis (or Indians at the upcoming IPL) taken a knee, it's fine and nice but they don't have to. When Phillip Hughes passed away, almost every cricketing nation honoured him with the resting bat outside their home/ground. It was a voluntary gesture as his untimely death touched everyone's heart. No one mandated that gesture and no one chastised each other for not following that gesture either.

    Like @JattMaula and @Rana said above, you can make a case to convince people to your cause but it should not be made a mandatory courtesy. Also, racism needs to be tackled at a serious level not these gestures. I say this even though I have faced racism wherever I went (being called a Kaaliya throughout my schooling as a South Indian growing up in Delhi, was called Osama in Arkansas, Michigan, Washington etc, and P*** in London) and understand the emotional turmoil it causes on someone.
    Again I never said or implied opposition to the BLM makes you racist, but those who do are part of the problem, when it comes fighting inequality, having read "milking BLM/racism".
    Last edited by topspin; 11th September 2020 at 20:58.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Now I know why you dislike hip-hop. Just because you can't relate to their struggles, no need to hate bro.
    I dislike hip-hop because it is nonsense. It has nothing to do with black culture.

  53. #53
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    You cannot force anyone to protest anything. Holdings expectations are extraordinary.

  54. #54
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    Remind me if this is the same guy who made a joke of it when Indian cricketers wore black bands at the death of Ajit Wadekar.

    Why am i not surprised to see Michael Holding making yet another needless statement.

    Please retire!

    You lost any right to ask moral questions when you started bowling deadly beamers at Indian tail enders with no helmet protection.

  55. #55
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    Stay on topic please and keep conversation related to cricket.


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  56. #56
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    Ah Michael Holding. Mr. Screaming Life.

    If he's not disappointed, he's outraged. If he's not outraged, he's exasperated. If he's not...


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  57. #57
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    Your comments were always pathetic and lame but this is a new low mate. Disgusting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No need of these fake gestures. The BLM movement has been milked enough already.

    Holding always loves a good moan. There is nothing that he doesnít complain about.

  58. #58
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    Pakistanis aren't a very educated, cultured or cosmopolitan people especially not the cricket team. Most of them have probably never even heard of BLM so it would've been a pointless gesture. Pakistanis are generally an insular parochial nation, so Holding's gripe is irrational.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by obaidshariq View Post
    Your comments were always pathetic and lame but this is a new low mate. Disgusting!
    Not his fault, tbh. Most Pakistanis are not educated enough on the subject to understand the sensitivity and gravity of it. Most live in a bubble and have no idea how racism has been institutionalized in the west. The sad part is that they are completely unaware of how short-handed they are and express their opinions like experts!

    Anyway, I wouldn't take what they say seriously.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmadharis1 View Post
    I don't want to get too political and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. Maybe it's because I live in the USA, maybe I just care too much...but some of these comments I'm reading are really upsetting me.

    The USA was built on the dehumanization and mistreatment of black people as slaves for hundreds of years. Systemic racism is real and still a problem here. Sure the movement has it's roots in the USA but it's message is universal. Saying there aren't as many black people in Pakistan or there's no systemic racism in Pakistan is not a reason to simply dismiss the movement. Racism in cricket is terrifyingly still present across all nations. Even in Pakistan there is racism...calling it "casual" doesn't make it ok.

    Holding isn't saying we need to solve racism or suggesting that taking a knee will fix problems. Just show support for black lives across the globe, some support for black people who are being killed unjustly and are continued to be treated unfairly by the state. Taking a knee is far from "forcing it down our throats" or similar to forcing "german citizens to heil Hitler" (what!?!?)....It takes a minute to just say "Yes I believe that black lives matter, black people are being killed unjustly, and racism is very real"
    Commendable effort, buddy. But with posts like these, you are banging your head against the wall here. We've got duffers here calling this movement fake, political or irrelevant. Some are comparing it to the Kashmir or Palestinian cause... Where does one start to explain?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Not his fault, tbh. Most Pakistanis are not educated enough on the subject to understand the sensitivity and gravity of it. Most live in a bubble and have no idea how racism has been institutionalized in the west. The sad part is that they are completely unaware of how short-handed they are and express their opinions like experts!

    Anyway, I wouldn't take what they say seriously.
    If they aren't educated then of course they live in a bubble and would have no idea about racism being institutionalised in the west. They don't live in the west and are uneducated. What is it exactly you are expecting from them?


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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmadharis1 View Post
    I don't want to get too political and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. Maybe it's because I live in the USA, maybe I just care too much...but some of these comments I'm reading are really upsetting me.

    The USA was built on the dehumanization and mistreatment of black people as slaves for hundreds of years. Systemic racism is real and still a problem here. Sure the movement has it's roots in the USA but it's message is universal. Saying there aren't as many black people in Pakistan or there's no systemic racism in Pakistan is not a reason to simply dismiss the movement. Racism in cricket is terrifyingly still present across all nations. Even in Pakistan there is racism...calling it "casual" doesn't make it ok.

    Holding isn't saying we need to solve racism or suggesting that taking a knee will fix problems. Just show support for black lives across the globe, some support for black people who are being killed unjustly and are continued to be treated unfairly by the state. Taking a knee is far from "forcing it down our throats" or similar to forcing "german citizens to heil Hitler" (what!?!?)....It takes a minute to just say "Yes I believe that black lives matter, black people are being killed unjustly, and racism is very real"
    You live in USA so you need to acknowledge the systemic racism and racial killing happening. You are indirect beneficiary of centuries of exploitation of the black people. You should care more about BLM. It is your(USA's) cross to carry.

    We dont owe BLM any support.
    Last edited by JattMaula; 12th September 2020 at 07:28.

  63. #63
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    Why do Pakistan, Australia and England have to justify not engaging in a symbolic gesture about an internal matter in a different country?

    Americans have this weird belief that the entire planet revolves around them and for some reason some people in other countries, who obviously have nothing better to do with their lives, feed into this obsession with American domestic politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JattMaula View Post
    You live in USA so you need to acknowledge the systemic racism and racial killing happening. You are indirect beneficiary of centuries of exploitation of the black people. You should care more about BLM. It is your(USA's) cross to carry.

    We dont owe BLM any support.
    we OWE support to all humanitarian causes. But that is another discussion.


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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    we OWE support to all humanitarian causes. But that is another discussion.
    No we dont owe support to anything we dont want to support.

    Supporting a cause is a personal decision it cant be forced upon.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by obaidshariq View Post
    Your comments were always pathetic and lame but this is a new low mate. Disgusting!
    Is BLM relevant to Pakistanis living in Pakistan, i.e. the real Pakistanis? No.

    So why should it be forced down our throats?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    Remind me if this is the same guy who made a joke of it when Indian cricketers wore black bands at the death of Ajit Wadekar.

    Why am i not surprised to see Michael Holding making yet another needless statement.

    Please retire!

    You lost any right to ask moral questions when you started bowling deadly beamers at Indian tail enders with no helmet protection.
    Yeah, Holding does not have an ounce of credibility.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    we OWE support to all humanitarian causes. But that is another discussion.
    Empty idealism is useless. I can't outrage over every injustice in the world. People should be allowed to choose their causes.

    My struggle is different. I don't bully random people into supporting me. That way lies ruin.

  69. #69
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    BLM has zero relevance outside the US.

    Honestly, this fake outrage is getting annoying by the day. Worldwide , thousands of innocents die every year to missile attacks and whatnot... no-one bats an eye. But they want to force all this down our throats because one black guy was killed.

  70. #70
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    I asked Mikey about this and he told me that he's not interested in ECB's pretty words and he said, how difficult is it to go down on one knee to keep attention going on the issues.
    Last edited by Saj; 13th September 2020 at 01:32.



  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Do you think there a chance we will see this gesture in IPL?
    I hope NOT

    I am not against the anti-racism movement(BLM), but it would be targeting wrong audiences. In India, caste base racism exist to the core, Dalits are still being persecuted, similar to Black Americans. If IPL do decide to join such movement, then it should raise the awareness of domestic racism issues which will benefit the country in long run and not get tangled in other countries mess.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesozoic View Post
    BLM has zero relevance outside the US.

    Honestly, this fake outrage is getting annoying by the day. Worldwide , thousands of innocents die every year to missile attacks and whatnot... no-one bats an eye. But they want to force all this down our throats because one black guy was killed.
    Yes, I feel BLM is just Democratís way of destroying properties and creating chaos and then blame it on Trump. So many ĎPeaceful Protestersí have been caught destroying properties, looting, and physical altercations with law enforcement. This whole peaceful protest is similar to peaceful protest of Shaheen Baugh in Delhi.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    we OWE support to all humanitarian causes. But that is another discussion.
    We OWE nothing. Stop shoving down our throats in the name of Humanitarian. Most of us do our part in helping others in some ways or the others. Initially, I supported BLM, but after watching how these democrats thugs have been destroying cities and lives of innocent people, I just no longer support it. Screw this whole movement that is only fuelling more hate.
    #AllLivesMatter.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    We OWE nothing. Stop shoving down our throats in the name of Humanitarian. Most of us do our part in helping others in some ways or the others. Initially, I supported BLM, but after watching how these democrats thugs have been destroying cities and lives of innocent people, I just no longer support it. Screw this whole movement that is only fuelling more hate.
    #AllLivesMatter.
    Read again. I am saying ALL issues matter and should be taken up by ALL not just some.


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  75. #75
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    Everyone is quick to support this and that movements online but would do nothing in their practical lives to make a difference.

    I guess making yourself look good over the Internet is cheap and easy.

    How many of the so-called BLM supporters on this forum have done or would do anything for blacks? Probably none, but that isnít stopping them from criticizing Pakistani, English and Australian players for not doing that knee drama or whatever it is.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Read again. I am saying ALL issues matter and should be taken up by ALL not just some.
    For me BLM is certainly not one of those matter which is fuelled by political agenda.

    And how do you know us not already doing our little bit to help humanity in whatever way possible? For me Humanity or supporting good cause should be voluntarily, not something we can force others to do.

  77. #77
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    Jofra Archer says England have "not forgotten" the Black Lives Matter movement despite no longer taking a knee before matches.

    Sky Sports pundit Michael Holding criticised England's decision to not carry on taking a knee against Pakistan and Australia having initially adopted the position in the Tests against West Indies and ODIs against Ireland.

    But fast bowler Archer has hit back at former West Indies paceman Holding, saying there is action going on in private.

    Former West Indies fast bowler Michael Holding criticises England for choosing not to take a knee in the Pakistan and Australia series
    "We have not forgotten, no one here has forgotten about Black Lives Matter," said fast bowler Archer.

    "I think it is a bit harsh for Michael Holding to not do some research before criticising. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what is going on behind the scenes.

    "I don't think he has spoken to [ECB chief executive] Tom Harrison. I have spoken to Tom and we have stuff running in the background."

    Archer also encouraged social media companies to continue to "stamp out" racial abuse on their platforms, having been subjected to slurs earlier this summer after missing England's second Test against West Indies for a bio-secure breach.

    "I think a lot of stuff is being put into place now," added Archer, who was also racially abused by a spectator during England's tour of New Zealand in late 2019.

    "People can be prosecuted a bit easier, though I think it may have to go a bit further as some people are still a bit worried of what could happen to them. I had one the other day, the guy blamed it on being drunk.

    "As long as there is social media and the person doesn't have to confront you I think it will still go on. All we can do is try and act accordingly, report it and do what's best.

    "I think I am strong enough to deal with it but what happens when they start targeting someone who is not as mentally strong and it starts affecting them? We have to try and stamp it out as much as possible.

    "I saw one lady comment about my chain but chains have nothing to do with cricket and if she knew me she would know I have had my chain since I was 14 or 15.

    "You can't make everyone happy but the majority are happy and that makes me happy."

    https://www.skysports.com/cricket/ne...-taking-a-knee


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  78. #78
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    Kneeing or doing bhangra will have no effect on the movement. An issue being made out of nothing.

  79. #79
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    Justin Langer about Australia not taking a knee before matches this tour:

    "To be completely honest, we could have talked more about it leading up to the first game. There was so much going on leading up to us getting here, maybe we should have talked more about it."


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Jofra Archer says England have "not forgotten" the Black Lives Matter movement despite no longer taking a knee before matches.

    Sky Sports pundit Michael Holding criticised England's decision to not carry on taking a knee against Pakistan and Australia having initially adopted the position in the Tests against West Indies and ODIs against Ireland.

    But fast bowler Archer has hit back at former West Indies paceman Holding, saying there is action going on in private.

    Former West Indies fast bowler Michael Holding criticises England for choosing not to take a knee in the Pakistan and Australia series
    "We have not forgotten, no one here has forgotten about Black Lives Matter," said fast bowler Archer.

    "I think it is a bit harsh for Michael Holding to not do some research before criticising. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what is going on behind the scenes.

    "I don't think he has spoken to [ECB chief executive] Tom Harrison. I have spoken to Tom and we have stuff running in the background."

    Archer also encouraged social media companies to continue to "stamp out" racial abuse on their platforms, having been subjected to slurs earlier this summer after missing England's second Test against West Indies for a bio-secure breach.

    "I think a lot of stuff is being put into place now," added Archer, who was also racially abused by a spectator during England's tour of New Zealand in late 2019.

    "People can be prosecuted a bit easier, though I think it may have to go a bit further as some people are still a bit worried of what could happen to them. I had one the other day, the guy blamed it on being drunk.

    "As long as there is social media and the person doesn't have to confront you I think it will still go on. All we can do is try and act accordingly, report it and do what's best.

    "I think I am strong enough to deal with it but what happens when they start targeting someone who is not as mentally strong and it starts affecting them? We have to try and stamp it out as much as possible.

    "I saw one lady comment about my chain but chains have nothing to do with cricket and if she knew me she would know I have had my chain since I was 14 or 15.

    "You can't make everyone happy but the majority are happy and that makes me happy."

    https://www.skysports.com/cricket/ne...-taking-a-knee
    Good on Archer for saying this.

    Should every sport begin with kneeling now? Should we still be clapping for the NHS? Gestures are gestures, change is what's needed. Regardless, I believe the UK is one of the most fair countries, and I do believe some of the issues raised in the US are misdirected. This is going a bit off topic, but I think that cricket should be about cricket, with minimal politics/social issues being injected into it.


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