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  1. #1
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    Saudis must boycott ‘everything Turkish,’ says commerce head after Erdogan remarks


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    Doesn't Turkey export a lot of foodstuff, especially halal meat based products and dairy items, to Saudi?

    The boycott may hurt Turkey a bit. Why does Erdogan want to create problems for Turkish exporters?

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    Erdogan is right and the Saudis and their Western chimps are in trouble.

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    Saudi Arabia calls upon citizens to 'boycott everything Turkish'

    Saudi authorities called upon citizens to "boycott everything Turkish" following a statement by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan where he accused some Gulf countries of pursuing policies that were destabilising the region, Gulf News reported on Saturday.

    “The boycott of everything Turkish, whether on the level of import, investment or tourism, is the responsibility of every Saudi — trader and consumer — in response to the continued hostility of the Turkish government against our leadership, our country and our citizens,” Saudi Arabia’s Chamber of Commerce head Ajlan Al Ajlan said in a tweet.

    In addition to accusing some Gulf countries of targeting Turkey and following policies that led to instability, the Turkish president had, during an address to the country's General Assembly, also said: “It should not be forgotten that the countries in question did not exist yesterday, and probably will not exist tomorrow; however, we will continue to keep our flag flying in this region forever, with the permission of Allah.”

    Relations between Saudi Arabia and Turkey have been thorny especially since the brutal murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi that took place in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

    Erdogan has said the order to murder Khashoggi came from “the highest levels” of the Saudi government but has never directly blamed Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who is widely believed to be behind the gruesome murder.

    Earlier this week, Turkey indicted six Saudi suspects in Khashoggi's murder case. None of the suspects are in Turkey and will be tried in absentia. Twenty Saudi nationals are already on trial in an Istanbul court for Khashoggi’s killing.

    The indictment came weeks after a Saudi court overturned five death sentences issued after a closed-door trial in Saudi Arabia that ended last year, sentencing them to 20 years in prison instead.

    Recently, Erdogan also condemned the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain's decision to normalise ties with Israel. After the announcement of normalisation of ties between UAE and Israel, Erdogan had warned Turkey could suspend diplomatic relations with the Gulf state in response.

    Turkey has had diplomatic relations with Israel for decades, but under President Erdogan, has positioned itself as a champion of the Palestinians.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1583215/sa...sial-statement


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    Are they going to start another proxy war?


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

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    Erdogan has nailed it. End of aal-e-Saud is near.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Erdogan has nailed it. End of aal-e-Saud is near.
    As long as Saudi Arabia remains responsible for a large part of the world's supply of the liquid gold, nobody is ever going to touch them, least of all the Turks.

    Erdogan himself relies on NATO for much of his military might. The US will force him to behave if he shakes his tail too much.

    As for the Saudis, they couldn't care less. They'll boycott who they please and get whatever they need from elsewhere.
    Last edited by The Viper; 5th October 2020 at 19:04.

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    The two cities of Makkah and Madina should be taken over by an international body of muslims too. I know it sounds unrealistic but it would have been better that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    As long as Saudi Arabia remains responsible for a large part of the world's supply of the liquid gold, nobody is ever going to touch them, least of all the Turks.

    Erdogan himself relies on NATO for much of his military might. The US will force him to behave if he shakes his tail too much.

    As for the Saudis, they couldn't care less. They'll boycott who they please and get whatever they need from elsewhere.
    Liquid gold is fast losing popularity, within 10 years you may well see demand for oil based fuel dwindling significantly as the move to electric vehicles gathers pace.

    While it's always gratifying to see Indians leap to the defence of an Arab country, Saudi Arabia's influence over the Muslim world must diminish with each Islamic country they fall out with, and Turkey with it's proud leadership history as per Resurrection Ertugrul, is one of the biggest.


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    Not a fan of either tbh. Both countries led by fools, although at least Turkey's is elected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    The two cities of Makkah and Madina should be taken over by an international body of muslims too. I know it sounds unrealistic but it would have been better that way.
    Wishful thinking at its finest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Liquid gold is fast losing popularity, within 10 years you may well see demand for oil based fuel dwindling significantly as the move to electric vehicles gathers pace.

    While it's always gratifying to see Indians leap to the defence of an Arab country, Saudi Arabia's influence over the Muslim world must diminish with each Islamic country they fall out with, and Turkey with it's proud leadership history as per Resurrection Ertugrul, is one of the biggest.
    A bit optimistic Captain. Aircraft and ships which are the biggest fuel guzzlers will require oil for some time.

    A bit unfortunate as it would be good to see Saudi dictators lose their influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    A bit optimistic Captain. Aircraft and ships which are the biggest fuel guzzlers will require oil for some time.

    A bit unfortunate as it would be good to see Saudi dictators lose their influence.
    I did realise that heavy transport would still require oil but still even Saudis recognise that over time demand for fossil fuels are likely to dwindle, hence their efforts to diversify their economy. You do not remain spiritual leader of Islamic countries if you are boycotting individual ones, we have already seen Pakistan flex somewhat from their previous position of unquestioning loyalty over the Kashmir issue. Saudis can throw their weight around at the moment, but they still have to be mindful of not ticking off too many Islamic countries who may start looking for alternative alliances.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Liquid gold is fast losing popularity, within 10 years you may well see demand for oil based fuel dwindling significantly as the move to electric vehicles gathers pace.

    While it's always gratifying to see Indians leap to the defence of an Arab country, Saudi Arabia's influence over the Muslim world must diminish with each Islamic country they fall out with, and Turkey with it's proud leadership history as per Resurrection Ertugrul, is one of the biggest.
    Japan is hell bent on going Hydrogen way.. Blue ammonia 40 tonnes transported from Aramco to Japan.. lets see how it goes..

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...ammonia-japan/
    Last edited by JaDed; 5th October 2020 at 22:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritOf1903 View Post
    Wishful thinking at its finest.
    Yes. I did say it is unrealistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    The two cities of Makkah and Madina should be taken over by an international body of muslims too. I know it sounds unrealistic but it would have been better that way.
    What don’t you like about Saudi Arabia’s management of Mecca and Medina? Everyone I’ve spoken to who have undertaken the Hajj or Umrah pilgrimage say the hosts do an incredible job accommodating everyone in relative peace and comfort?

    What could an international body of Muslims do that Saudi Arabia do not do at the moment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    What don’t you like about Saudi Arabia’s management of Mecca and Medina? Everyone I’ve spoken to who have undertaken the Hajj or Umrah pilgrimage say the hosts do an incredible job accommodating everyone in relative peace and comfort?

    What could an international body of Muslims do that Saudi Arabia do not do at the moment?
    I think this is a fair point, Saudis do take that job of hosting millions of pilgrims very seriously. I think the main objection to their leadership in the Muslim world is that they are often seen to put their own interests above the rest of the Islamic world. Nothing wrong with that per se, but then they cannot at the same time claim leadership over others. Calling for boycott of Turkey for example is not leadership at all, it is abdication.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    What don’t you like about Saudi Arabia’s management of Mecca and Medina? Everyone I’ve spoken to who have undertaken the Hajj or Umrah pilgrimage say the hosts do an incredible job accommodating everyone in relative peace and comfort?

    What could an international body of Muslims do that Saudi Arabia do not do at the moment?
    I've been to Hajj, Saudis do a terrible job. People are just emtional and happy they managed to to fulfill this. The security and workers are the ones who help people but not because they have to.

    Both cities should be taken over by a group of Muslims who are from mixed sects along with experts who organise large events such as the World Cup, Olympics.

    Muslims dont want to be heading to the holy city by asking permission from dicators and installed puppets of non-believers.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I've been to Hajj, Saudis do a terrible job. People are just emtional and happy they managed to to fulfill this. The security and workers are the ones who help people but not because they have to.

    Both cities should be taken over by a group of Muslims who are from mixed sects along with experts who organise large events such as the World Cup, Olympics.

    Muslims dont want to be heading to the holy city by asking permission from dicators and installed puppets of non-believers.
    I disagree. They do a commendable job of Hajj . Its is not easy to manage millions of people belonging from different cultures having different set of cultural norms . Its Its a logistical nightmare .


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

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    Erdogan is spot on here.

    Saudi is a client, puppet state like UAE, Bahrain etc. The Saudi family were terrorists who helped the British Empire to take over the Holy Cities from the Islamic state. Since the family has been a lapdog of the west, mainly USA, Israel while exporting their extremist new age version of Islam around the world. Saudi has done the most damage to image of Islam.

    Saudi is in economic turmoil due to low oil prices, they survive on oil and nothing else. The US is also in decline, so both the worlds biggest superpower and terrorist state along with it's lapdog are on the way out.

    Sooner or later, the holy cities will be back in the hands of Muslims not fake client puppets.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    I disagree. They do a commendable job of Hajj . Its is not easy to manage millions of people belonging from different cultures having different set of cultural norms . Its Its a logistical nightmare .
    When did you perform Hajj?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Liquid gold is fast losing popularity, within 10 years you may well see demand for oil based fuel dwindling significantly as the move to electric vehicles gathers pace.

    While it's always gratifying to see Indians leap to the defence of an Arab country, Saudi Arabia's influence over the Muslim world must diminish with each Islamic country they fall out with, and Turkey with it's proud leadership history as per Resurrection Ertugrul, is one of the biggest.
    Most Indians have nothing against Saudi Arabia. If anything, Indians have great respect for Saudi as a provider of employment for more than 3 million of their countrymen of all faiths, and as a major trade partner. Not everyone looks at everything through the lens of religion.

    And you are seriously mistaken if you think that the world is going to stop relying on oil. It is needed for more than just cars. Someone has already mentioned aircraft and ships, which are going to be relying on oil for many years to come. Also, oil is the source of a large number of hydrocarbons which are used widely in industry to make everything from plastics to pharmaceuticals.
    Last edited by gani999; 5th October 2020 at 23:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    Most Indians have nothing against Saudi Arabia. If anything, Indians have great respect for Saudi as a provider of employment for more than 3 million of our countrymen of all faiths, and as a major trade partner. Not everyone looks at everything through the lens of religion.

    And you are seriously mistaken if you think that the world is going to stop relying on oil. It is needed for more than just cars. Someone has already mentioned aircraft and ships, which are going to be relying on oil for many years to come. Also, oil is the source of a large number of hydrocarbons which are used widely in industry to make everything from plastics to pharmaceuticals.
    Air travel is pretty much dead in this pandemic and it could be many years before it takes off again, or perhaps never in the ways again.

    Oil will only be used for military in large quantities, everything else is turning away from oil.

    Saudis need oil sales to be high, even a 50% drop will ruin their country as we see right now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    When did you perform Hajj?
    2018 Alhumdullilah .


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Air travel is pretty much dead in this pandemic and it could be many years before it takes off again, or perhaps never in the ways again.

    Oil will only be used for military in large quantities, everything else is turning away from oil.

    Saudis need oil sales to be high, even a 50% drop will ruin their country as we see right now.
    Air travel will pick up once a vaccine against COVID-19 comes out, which could be as early as the end of this year. And airplanes do more than carry passengers. Air freight traffic is at an all time high and is likely to keep increasing.

    Electric cars have been around since the 1920s, but most cars today still run on fossil fuels. While that is starting to change, it will take decades before petroleum-driven cars are replaced by electric or hydrogen powered vehicles. But even so only around 45% of the oil is used to run cars. The rest is for other forms of trasnport, power generation, aviation, speciality chemicals and numerous other uses. For many coming decades, oil is still going to be a necessity.

    And MBS has made it a priority to move the Saudis economy away from oil.

    But to get back to the topic, it's hilarious that some people think the muslim world is going to abandon the Saudis simply because Turkey and Iran have issues with them.
    Last edited by gani999; 5th October 2020 at 23:52.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    2018 Alhumdullilah .
    Mashallah.

    I went in 2013 while the building work was on-going. I felt the Saudis have allowed a lot of new investment in terms of accomodation but with the money the have and generate from pilgrims the whole experience could have been much better organised. Also due to their extreme ideology they have torn down amazing historical sites of Islam too. I have no doubt other Muslims would do it much better and even non-Muslims.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    Air travel will pick up once a vaccine against COVID-19 comes out, which could be as early as the end of this year. And airplanes do more than carry passengers. Air freight traffic is at an all time high and is likely to keep increasing.

    Electric cars have been around since the 1920s, but most cars today still run on fossil fuels. While that is starting to change, it will take decades before petroleum-driven cars are replaced by electric or hydrogen powered vehicles. But even so only around 45% of the oil is used to run cars. The rest is for other forms of trasnport, power generation, aviation, speciality chemicals and numerous other uses. For many coming decades, oil is still going to be a necessity.

    And MBS has made it a priority to move the Saudis economy away from oil.

    But to get back to the topic, it's hilarious that some people think the muslim world is going to abandon the Saudis simply because Turkey and Iran have issues with them.
    Abandon?lol. The Muslim world has never recognised the Saudi's as independent, see my earlier post. Not sure why you think Muslims are stupid enough to praise dictatorships.

    Air travel will never be the same since vaccines will be required to travel and a large amount of people will not take the vaccine but rather holiday locally.

    Driving petrol/diesel cars is becoming more expensive, tax, duty and emissions taxes while governments continue to tax fuel duty heavily. Public transport , electric trains, trams will be more popular and electric cars will become cheaper. Of course its going take a decade or so but the reliance on oil is certainly reducing signicantly.

    Saudi became rich due to oil and will lose this wealth beause of oil, all other industries are a very small part of their economy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I've been to Hajj, Saudis do a terrible job. People are just emtional and happy they managed to to fulfill this. The security and workers are the ones who help people but not because they have to.

    Both cities should be taken over by a group of Muslims who are from mixed sects along with experts who organise large events such as the World Cup, Olympics.

    Muslims dont want to be heading to the holy city by asking permission from dicators and installed puppets of non-believers.
    lol .. imagine the chaos and corruption and incompetency if Hajj and Umra management is taken over by Pakistan.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    lol .. imagine the chaos and corruption and incompetency if Hajj and Umra management is taken over by Pakistan.
    Under PTI the Hajj would be much better imo. People give far too much credit to Saudi's, remember over 500 people were killed or injured in 2015 at the Hajj when a crane fell. Thousands have died over the years in crushes and stampedes. There is no organisation when crowds are cramped together, people fear for the lives esp the elderly. I can give many other examples, try going to the tent city in Hajj, the area is unlcean esp the toilets showers. It's a disgrace for such a rich country.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Mashallah.

    I went in 2013 while the building work was on-going. I felt the Saudis have allowed a lot of new investment in terms of accomodation but with the money the have and generate from pilgrims the whole experience could have been much better organised. Also due to their extreme ideology they have torn down amazing historical sites of Islam too. I have no doubt other Muslims would do it much better and even non-Muslims.
    Mashallah , I went the very next year after the big stampede .They had probably upped their game a lot by then. Their crowd control measures were amazing and the days of jamaraat went seamlessly .Jamrat days are when things go crazy mostly . They had people in uniform( army?) posted everywhere and were directing people. You could only go in one direction and couldn't turn back which was the cause of stampede last time . Transportation was a nightmare though .That's one thing that can me improved upon big time . After jamrat traffic was so bad that we decided to walk to haram instead . Probably Most I've walked in my life but one could argue that Hajj is supposed to be difficult and teaches you sabr . Life altering experience nonetheless.


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

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    Erdogan is a delusional clown.

    He thinks he is a caliph of the Ottoman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Erdogan is a delusional clown.

    He thinks he is a caliph of the Ottoman Empire.
    I dont know how is despise more. The joker of istanbul or the saudi royalty. I would say saudis have done much more damage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    What don’t you like about Saudi Arabia’s management of Mecca and Medina? Everyone I’ve spoken to who have undertaken the Hajj or Umrah pilgrimage say the hosts do an incredible job accommodating everyone in relative peace and comfort?

    What could an international body of Muslims do that Saudi Arabia do not do at the moment?
    My reasons are entirely different than management.

    The tags of "The custodians of Makkah And Madina" and "home of the holiest muslim sites" give Saudi a defacto leadership position in the muslim world which they dont deserve. Makkah and Madina belong to all muslims of the world and they shouldnt be used to further political ambitions of saudi monarchy.

    Even the Imam of Kaaba was seen defending Saudi prince's actions last year. It was horrible to listen to and proved how a supposedly apolitical place has been turned political.

    We also dont know what the earnings from the Haj pilgrimage are used for.

    For these reasons i believe it would have been better if an apolitical global muslim body takes over the custody of the two cities. But this is a pipe dream realistically speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    I dont know how is despise more. The joker of istanbul or the saudi royalty. I would say saudis have done much more damage
    More than Americans and Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    More than Americans and Europeans?
    Both ameirca and the British have caused havoc on this globe. So have ottoman empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    I disagree. They do a commendable job of Hajj . Its is not easy to manage millions of people belonging from different cultures having different set of cultural norms . Its Its a logistical nightmare .
    Completely agree, every year They do a commendable job regarding hajj and countless umrah groups through out the year, we went 2015 when the deadly stampede took place

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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    Most Indians have nothing against Saudi Arabia. If anything, Indians have great respect for Saudi as a provider of employment for more than 3 million of their countrymen of all faiths, and as a major trade partner. Not everyone looks at everything through the lens of religion.
    No one would expect self avowed infidels to look through the lens of religion, but that is exactly the lens through which the proud Musalman will view events. By the light of Ertugrul, the ghost of the Osmani empire is stirring, Erdogan has invoked the word against the puppet regime in Riyadh, and they are indeed on borrowed time inshallah.


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    LOL, the Saudis going down to Indian levels of pettiness, ie banning Chinese apps.

    Show annoyance but don't take the bait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    My reasons are entirely different than management.

    The tags of "The custodians of Makkah And Madina" and "home of the holiest muslim sites" give Saudi a defacto leadership position in the muslim world which they dont deserve. Makkah and Madina belong to all muslims of the world and they shouldnt be used to further political ambitions of saudi monarchy.

    Even the Imam of Kaaba was seen defending Saudi prince's actions last year. It was horrible to listen to and proved how a supposedly apolitical place has been turned political.

    We also dont know what the earnings from the Haj pilgrimage are used for.

    For these reasons i believe it would have been better if an apolitical global muslim body takes over the custody of the two cities. But this is a pipe dream realistically speaking.
    There is actually a good argument for not performing Hajj and all Muslims have been exempt from this pillar due to the holy cities being in the hands of enemies of Islam/Kwarij/puppets etc.

    No Imam can say anything or do anything which hasnt been vetted by the Saudi extremist religious so called scholars.

    Quicker they are gone the better not just for Muslims but for the planet...exc Zionists/Hindutva nutters.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    There is actually a good argument for not performing Hajj and all Muslims have been exempt from this pillar due to the holy cities being in the hands of enemies of Islam/Kwarij/puppets etc.

    No Imam can say anything or do anything which hasnt been vetted by the Saudi extremist religious so called scholars.

    Quicker they are gone the better not just for Muslims but for the planet...exc Zionists/Hindutva nutters.
    so you are saying stop performing hajj because Makah and Medina is controlled by enemies of Islam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    so you are saying stop performing hajj because Makah and Medina is controlled by enemies of Islam?

    Im certainly one that doesnt want to fill the coffers of the saudi royalty after all the damage they have done to the ummah and islamic heritage

    Id rather not spend my hard earned money of several thousands of pounds staying in shabby towers and filthy accomodation

    The pilgrimage is supposed to be affordable and a spiritual experience What they have done to the festival is a crime

    Its a disgrace how they treat non arabs and have turned the cities into a saudi versions of las vegas
    Last edited by Zaz; 6th October 2020 at 04:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    so you are saying stop performing hajj because Makah and Medina is controlled by enemies of Islam?
    Ive been blessed enough to perform Hajj and Im not suggesting its' wrong to do so but was merely pointing out there is a debate to be had with strong arguments on either side. Im a big boxing fan too so was contemplating going over to see a fight but decided against it as I dont like the regime.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    Im certainly one that doesnt want to fill the coffers of the saudi royalty after all the damage they have done to the ummah and islamic heritage

    Id rather not spend my hard earned money of several thousands of pounds staying in shabby towers and filthy accomodation

    The pilgrimage is supposed to be affordable and a spiritual experience What they have done to the festival is a crime

    Its a disgrace how they treat non arabs and have turned the cities into a saudi versions of las vegas
    I stayed in the clock tower, tallest hotel in the world i believe. The only reason for this due to being with one of my parents, comfort etc. The complex itself is full of western fast food brands which isnt really food but trash food like Mcdonalds, KFC etc. Those who cant afford this sleep in small hotels and eat simple foods, I think they get more out of the experience. It feels a bit strange the huge difference in standards to majority of others esp when we are all supposed to be one, no difference of wealth etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Ive been blessed enough to perform Hajj and Im not suggesting its' wrong to do so but was merely pointing out there is a debate to be had with strong arguments on either side. Im a big boxing fan too so was contemplating going over to see a fight but decided against it as I dont like the regime.
    ok fair enough cause imo not performing hajj is way too extreme

    other types of boycott that's something to be considered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    ok fair enough cause imo not performing hajj is way too extreme

    other types of boycott that's something to be considered
    Looking back now in 2020, I feel I made the right decision. We have no idea if Hajj will be the same again and there is an end times prophecy which says the Hajj will be abandoned. There are so many people who dream of this and I was lucky to do so, therefore would even pay for a poor person so he/she can perform it. I think the world has changed for good but I hope Im wrong.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    ok fair enough cause imo not performing hajj is way too extreme

    other types of boycott that's something to be considered
    Why is it too extreme? Do you condone the extreme monies they charge, the heritage they have destroyed?

    The only importance the sauds have got in the muslim world is the two holy cities Take that away from them by hitting them where it hurts n not going there

    The custodians should be a muslim elected panel who have muslim interests at heart, not their own

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    Quote Originally Posted by gani999 View Post
    As long as Saudi Arabia remains responsible for a large part of the world's supply of the liquid gold, nobody is ever going to touch them, least of all the Turks.

    Erdogan himself relies on NATO for much of his military might. The US will force him to behave if he shakes his tail too much.

    As for the Saudis, they couldn't care less. They'll boycott who they please and get whatever they need from elsewhere.
    I never said that Erdogan will conquer Saudi Arabia. Saudis are bringing it to themselves.

    You cannot be 'custodians of Hijaz' and be puppets of Israel/US at the same time. This farcical hypocrisy cannot sustain for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    I never said that Erdogan will conquer Saudi Arabia. Saudis are bringing it to themselves.

    You cannot be 'custodians of Hijaz' and be puppets of Israel/US at the same time. This farcical hypocrisy cannot sustain for long.
    The Israeli part is especially concerning tbh

    Remember they banned Iranians from coming to the umrah
    Never in the history I think people from a certain country were banned from performing to the Umrah

    Someone should have a talk with the Saudis but I think no one in the Muslim world has enough prestige to confront Saudis and actually get majority of Muslim countries support

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    The Israeli part is especially concerning tbh

    Remember they banned Iranians from coming to the umrah
    Never in the history I think people from a certain country were banned from performing to the Umrah

    Someone should have a talk with the Saudis but I think no one in the Muslim world has enough prestige to confront Saudis and actually get majority of Muslim countries support
    Steps like these will accelerate their downfall.

    It is imperative for Pakistan to improve its economy so that we are not relying on Saudi handouts and remittances from their. Once Saudis lose their leverages on Muslim countries, they will fall like house of cards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Both ameirca and the British have caused havoc on this globe. So have ottoman empire.
    Every power causes havoc and seeks domination. This is never going to go away. The west isn't compromising on their ideologies which have been anything but benevolent towards the rest of the world least of all towards the muslim world. That's why muslims need to have a stronger block and this need in itself necessitates the rise of someone like Erdogan. You call him the clown of Istanbul but if rallying behind a clown helps the muslims to collectively adhere to an ideology in order to emerge out of the pitiful state they're in, so be it. Without an ideology, we're weak individuals with no grand cause and no sense of belonging. This is an era where the muslim world is screaming out for a global leader. Erdogan is the product of the state we find ourselves in today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    There is actually a good argument for not performing Hajj and all Muslims have been exempt from this pillar due to the holy cities being in the hands of enemies of Islam/Kwarij/puppets etc.

    No Imam can say anything or do anything which hasnt been vetted by the Saudi extremist religious so called scholars.

    Quicker they are gone the better not just for Muslims but for the planet...exc Zionists/Hindutva nutters.
    The problem is that common muslims will never ever accept boycotting Haj.

    There have been calls made by many non-muslim liberal organizations for muslims to boycott going to Saudi altogether but they don't seem to understand how the mind of a muslim works. It's never going to happen. Saudi could always use these religious sites to their advantage in numerous ways and blackmail the muslims into supporting them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    The problem is that common muslims will never ever accept boycotting Haj.

    There have been calls made by many non-muslim liberal organizations for muslims to boycott going to Saudi altogether but they don't seem to understand how the mind of a muslim works. It's never going to happen. Saudi could always use these religious sites to their advantage in numerous ways and blackmail the muslims into supporting them.
    The Saudis have to tread a careful line though, their influence is only as custodians of the religious sites, already their reputation has taken a hit with accusations of being a false state created solely to facilitate western powers following the fall of the Ottoman empire. Many fundamentalist Muslim movements don't recognise Saudi legitimacy as a country, and SA has to be careful not to antagonise their friends in the Muslim world. Too many questions raised about whose interests they are serving could see the calls for the abolition of Saudi Arabia start hitting the streets and not just the disaffected militant groups.


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    Typical Wahabi mentality from the Saudis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The Saudis have to tread a careful line though, their influence is only as custodians of the religious sites, already their reputation has taken a hit with accusations of being a false state created solely to facilitate western powers following the fall of the Ottoman empire. Many fundamentalist Muslim movements don't recognise Saudi legitimacy as a country, and SA has to be careful not to antagonise their friends in the Muslim world. Too many questions raised about whose interests they are serving could see the calls for the abolition of Saudi Arabia start hitting the streets and not just the disaffected militant groups.
    Its very difficult without a popular local movement against the monarchy. And people will never rise up as long as Saudi Arabia is economically sound and people are comfortable. I'm afraid, religion/morality in itself isn't a strong enough force in this day and age. The masses really need to feel uncomfortable at an individual level for anything substantial to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Erdogan is spot on here.

    Saudi is a client, puppet state like UAE, Bahrain etc. The Saudi family were terrorists who helped the British Empire to take over the Holy Cities from the Islamic state. Since the family has been a lapdog of the west, mainly USA, Israel while exporting their extremist new age version of Islam around the world. Saudi has done the most damage to image of Islam.

    Saudi is in economic turmoil due to low oil prices, they survive on oil and nothing else. The US is also in decline, so both the worlds biggest superpower and terrorist state along with it's lapdog are on the way out.

    Sooner or later, the holy cities will be back in the hands of Muslims not fake client puppets.
    Agreed, they have ruined Islam with their export of Wahabism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Its very difficult without a popular local movement against the monarchy. And people will never rise up as long as Saudi Arabia is economically sound and people are comfortable. I'm afraid, religion/morality in itself isn't a strong enough force in this day and age. The masses really need to feel uncomfortable at an individual level for anything substantial to happen.
    I don't expect a local uprising in any of the gulf arab countries. Why would the locals uprise when they are driving BMWs and working when and if they feel like it?

    What I am saying is that their influence will wane in the Islamic world outside of their gulf bubble.You will see countries like Iran and Turkey vying for leadership of the Muslim world in their place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't expect a local uprising in any of the gulf arab countries. Why would the locals uprise when they are driving BMWs and working when and if they feel like it?

    What I am saying is that their influence will wane in the Islamic world outside of their gulf bubble.You will see countries like Iran and Turkey vying for leadership of the Muslim world in their place.
    Yes, i agree to it. This looks like a likely outcome to their policies especially after them embracing the Israelis.

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    Just another phase in the long running conflict between the authoritarian monarchies vs authoritarian socialist groups.


    Make no mistake about control will be maintained by a select few whilst they continue to exploit the Muslim masses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    My reasons are entirely different than management.

    The tags of "The custodians of Makkah And Madina" and "home of the holiest muslim sites" give Saudi a defacto leadership position in the muslim world which they dont deserve. Makkah and Madina belong to all muslims of the world and they shouldnt be used to further political ambitions of saudi monarchy.

    Even the Imam of Kaaba was seen defending Saudi prince's actions last year. It was horrible to listen to and proved how a supposedly apolitical place has been turned political.

    We also dont know what the earnings from the Haj pilgrimage are used for.

    For these reasons i believe it would have been better if an apolitical global muslim body takes over the custody of the two cities. But this is a pipe dream realistically speaking.
    +1.

    Also right now if you are a non-Saudi muslim who is against Saudi Arabia's current government, then they can stop you from performing Hajj or Umrah by not giving you visa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    My reasons are entirely different than management.

    The tags of "The custodians of Makkah And Madina" and "home of the holiest muslim sites" give Saudi a defacto leadership position in the muslim world which they dont deserve. Makkah and Madina belong to all muslims of the world and they shouldnt be used to further political ambitions of saudi monarchy.

    Even the Imam of Kaaba was seen defending Saudi prince's actions last year. It was horrible to listen to and proved how a supposedly apolitical place has been turned political.

    We also dont know what the earnings from the Haj pilgrimage are used for.

    For these reasons i believe it would have been better if an apolitical global muslim body takes over the custody of the two cities. But this is a pipe dream realistically speaking.
    I'm glad you mentioned this.

    It comes as no surprise to me though because the Wahabi school of thought is a political movement which hides under the banner of Islam. This is why you'll all these Wahabi dawah preachers and Imams of mosques (that have been funded by Saudis) will always speak in favour of the Saudi authoritarian monarchy regime.

    It's one thing to be silent on it but to actually justify it using your own tailor made interpretation of Islam is anything but Islamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Every power causes havoc and seeks domination. This is never going to go away. The west isn't compromising on their ideologies which have been anything but benevolent towards the rest of the world least of all towards the muslim world. That's why muslims need to have a stronger block and this need in itself necessitates the rise of someone like Erdogan. You call him the clown of Istanbul but if rallying behind a clown helps the muslims to collectively adhere to an ideology in order to emerge out of the pitiful state they're in, so be it. Without an ideology, we're weak individuals with no grand cause and no sense of belonging. This is an era where the muslim world is screaming out for a global leader. Erdogan is the product of the state we find ourselves in today.
    I have to disagree with you. He has an illusion of wha you describe. And this illusion is mostly on pakistani people. Mr Erdogan is what Trump wants to be. Under his leadership turkey has one of the most oppressed press. Many journalists in jail. Since he has been in power Turkey has fallen in rankings of GEI ( Gender equality Index), he has been hell for minorities of turkey. He was pm and turkey had a parlimentary system. When he finished the term limit and no longer could be PM he changed the system where the president has the power and became president. He is corrupt to the core. His son in law , son in power positions and also accused of corruption. You talk about savior of muslims. He uses syrian refugees like pawns to his political advantage. They live like animals in turkey. And what pakistanis love most about him is that he stood up to israel during that flotilla thing years ago. He was selling or buying ( i forget which one) to israel while pretending to be savior of the palestinians. Oh and yes the economy is in the dumps. Turkey is one of my fav country and istanbul is my fav city by far in the world. I have been going there since the late 90s. Its a shame what he has done. He suffers from grand delusions .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I think this is a fair point, Saudis do take that job of hosting millions of pilgrims very seriously. I think the main objection to their leadership in the Muslim world is that they are often seen to put their own interests above the rest of the Islamic world. Nothing wrong with that per se, but then they cannot at the same time claim leadership over others. Calling for boycott of Turkey for example is not leadership at all, it is abdication.

    I agree with all what you opined.
    Saudis have been doing a fairly good job in hosting millions of people (mostly of whom arrive from third world and many are inorganized by nature).

    It's laughable that some folks are pointing a few unfortunate accidents that happened in the last 8 decades.
    Saudi Hajj management easily outweighs the few mishaps. It's a no brainer.
    So credit where due to Saudis.

    However, on the other hand, they cannot have it both ways. Claiming the Islamic leadership and then working for their own interest at the expense of boycotting other Muslim nations?
    Besides Turkey, their lack of political support for Kashimirs and Rohingiyas was also very disappointing.

    Saudi's seem to lack in two venues as oil dependency is decreasing.

    They seem to be scared and in panic, and rightly so, because they don't have the foggiest of ideas as to how will they survive and revive their economy if their petrol shop is closed?

    They blindly followed a half baked strategy of Dubai and created 100s of building structures - and from what I hear, almost 90% of these "business centers" are now sit empty for years.

    What were they thinking? Erecting high towers will start pouring in foreign investments and increase business activities in Saudi? LOL

    They also invested in the banking sectors of some western countries.
    Sorry, you don't run a large country's economy by off shore business ventures. You must produce at home and you must work hard as a nation. This "Shahana mizaagi" won't go for long after oil shop is closed.

    We have seen it a couple of years ago when oil prices plunged, Saudi govt and many big employers didn't have money to pay the laborers.

    Second, they seem to be trying to find a refuge under the shelter of USA and Israel with an SOS call to save them.

    The way to do this correctly was to create better alliance with Turkey, Pakistan and Malaysia, yet have politically stable yet cautious and peaceful diplomatic and business relationships with rest of the world, including USA.

    Here in United States, many Arab govts and some Arab people in general, are considered to be, "Lucky fools who were born on top of a land filled with oil reservoirs".

    It's a dog eat dog world out there. There is no concept of mercy when it comes to international politics. Saudis WILL be fools if they believe that their SOS call will get them mercy from the West. And too much alliance with the West will perhaps force them to buyout more Islamic countries, like Turkey.

    If Muslim countries don't unite and work with honesty and work smartly (instead of having a begging bowl towards each other), there are better chance to survive and prosper - otherwise, it's the same old 100's of years proven strategy of "Divide and rule" which they will fall victims of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Besides Turkey, their lack of political support for Kashimirs and Rohingiyas was also very disappointing.

    ...

    If Muslim countries don't unite and work with honesty.
    You want Muslims to work together honestly, but you ignore the most persecuted Muslims in the world today, the Uyghurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You want Muslims to work together honestly, but you ignore the most persecuted Muslims in the world today, the Uyghurs.
    Definitely yes.
    And it's not limited to Uyghurs but also Syria, Yemen and Palestine to name a few.

    Corrupt leadership leading Muslim countries in the third world - is the major problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Definitely yes.
    And it's not limited to Uyghurs but also Syria, Yemen and Palestine to name a few.

    Corrupt leadership leading Muslim countries in the third world - is the major problem.
    Okay, I hope you succeed in making the lives of your co-religionists better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    I have to disagree with you. He has an illusion of wha you describe. And this illusion is mostly on pakistani people. Mr Erdogan is what Trump wants to be. Under his leadership turkey has one of the most oppressed press. Many journalists in jail. Since he has been in power Turkey has fallen in rankings of GEI ( Gender equality Index), he has been hell for minorities of turkey. He was pm and turkey had a parlimentary system. When he finished the term limit and no longer could be PM he changed the system where the president has the power and became president. He is corrupt to the core. His son in law , son in power positions and also accused of corruption. You talk about savior of muslims. He uses syrian refugees like pawns to his political advantage. They live like animals in turkey. And what pakistanis love most about him is that he stood up to israel during that flotilla thing years ago. He was selling or buying ( i forget which one) to israel while pretending to be savior of the palestinians. Oh and yes the economy is in the dumps. Turkey is one of my fav country and istanbul is my fav city by far in the world. I have been going there since the late 90s. Its a shame what he has done. He suffers from grand delusions .
    There are some self-contradictions in this post which I'm going to ignore.

    You didn't understand the message I was trying to convey. I didnt put him across as some sort of beacon of morality. Which powerful global leader gets 10/10 on morality/ethics? Putin, trump, Macron, Xi? So, we should stop kidding ourselves. What I said is that his rise has a lot to do with the pitiful state of muslims. And if that in any way helps muslims to come together, then it's not the worst thing in the world. The rise of a muslim leader with global appeal among muslims is necessary and to be honest, the position is up for grabs. Erdogan is tapping into it very very efficiently, whether someone likes it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    There are some self-contradictions in this post which I'm going to ignore.

    You didn't understand the message I was trying to convey. I didnt put him across as some sort of beacon of morality. Which powerful global leader gets 10/10 on morality/ethics? Putin, trump, Macron, Xi? So, we should stop kidding ourselves. What I said is that his rise has a lot to do with the pitiful state of muslims. And if that in any way helps muslims to come together, then it's not the worst thing in the world. The rise of a muslim leader with global appeal among muslims is necessary and to be honest, the position is up for grabs. Erdogan is tapping into it very very efficiently, whether someone likes it or not.
    My point is , is this is the best muslims Leader they got to look up to. He is worse than trump. Trump wishes he could get away with with erdogan has gotten away with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    My point is , is this is the best muslims Leader they got to look up to. He is worse than trump. Trump wishes he could get away with with erdogan has gotten away with.
    "worse than Trump"?

    What's wrong with Trump?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    My point is , is this is the best muslims Leader they got to look up to. He is worse than trump. Trump wishes he could get away with with erdogan has gotten away with.
    At the moment, yes he is. Who is another global muslim leader? Can you point out one to me? He is muslims' best bet because right now muslims need a rallying point more than a moral point. If erdogan fails in tapping into the demographic potential of muslim world, only then I'll say he has failed. I won't say he has failed because of him doing some questionable things to stay in power in Turkey. That's just a petty little thing in the overall game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    At the moment, yes he is. Who is another global muslim leader? Can you point out one to me? He is muslims' best bet because right now muslims need a rallying point more than a moral point. If erdogan fails in tapping into the demographic potential of muslim world, only then I'll say he has failed. I won't say he has failed because of him doing some questionable things to stay in power in Turkey. That's just a petty little thing in the overall game.
    Why is there a need for a muslim leader? Or a jewish or Christian leader?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Why is there a need for a muslim leader? Or a jewish or Christian leader?
    Because we have an ideology of our own. That's what makes us who we are and shapes our identity. And without that, we are nothing. Just meaningless, petty individuals. The lowest of the low, squabbling over petty things, indulging in activities which are unbecoming of us. We can never change it indvidually, only collectively. Read my first reply to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Every power causes havoc and seeks domination. This is never going to go away. The west isn't compromising on their ideologies which have been anything but benevolent towards the rest of the world least of all towards the muslim world. That's why muslims need to have a stronger block and this need in itself necessitates the rise of someone like Erdogan. You call him the clown of Istanbul but if rallying behind a clown helps the muslims to collectively adhere to an ideology in order to emerge out of the pitiful state they're in, so be it. Without an ideology, we're weak individuals with no grand cause and no sense of belonging. This is an era where the muslim world is screaming out for a global leader. Erdogan is the product of the state we find ourselves in today.
    Unless what you're saying is that we should succumb to the mighty west. I understand that in every era there are individuals who want to do that because its just the easy thing to do and might even look like a rational thing to do. A mighty power/empire which is producing results is always an attraction. In the era of muslim domination, the europeans used to do it as well. They used to name themselves as Muhammads and Ahmads like some muslims today name themselves Tony and Rocky etc. just to fit in. I'll tell you something which you probably already know. You will still be different to them even if you abandon the ideology of your ancestors and adopt theirs. They are never going to stop pursuing their goals at the expense of your people, that is if you still consider them your people. Read any history book. It is always a competition. Always. There is no reconciliation between ideologies. One either engulfs the other or dominates it.

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    I am an athiest , ethnically pakistani , US citizen. I would be a third class citizen in pakistan ( thats if i am alive). I fit in very well here thank you. Muslims are behind because of education. If you are a competent, educated country its very hard to keep you down. Look at South Korea. In the 1960s pakistan and South korea were more or less the same. Look at them now. Get educated, empower your women. Erdogan will throw other muslim countries under the bus to get any leverage. Look how he has used the syrians. How he has treated the Kurds. Only pakistani have this grand delusions of this muslim brotherhood. If you talk to other nationals of muslim origin they would look at you like you are crazy.

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    Strange from KSA. Disappointing.

    To be fair, Erdogan is a better leader than all the Arab leaders combined.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    I am an athiest , ethnically pakistani , US citizen. I would be a third class citizen in pakistan ( thats if i am alive). I fit in very well here thank you. Muslims are behind because of education. If you are a competent, educated country its very hard to keep you down. Look at South Korea. In the 1960s pakistan and South korea were more or less the same. Look at them now. Get educated, empower your women. Erdogan will throw other muslim countries under the bus to get any leverage. Look how he has used the syrians. How he has treated the Kurds. Only pakistani have this grand delusions of this muslim brotherhood. If you talk to other nationals of muslim origin they would look at you like you are crazy.
    Hasn't south Korea become something of a client state of the US and thus got preferential treatment as a result of the American military intervention in the region?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    I am an athiest , ethnically pakistani , US citizen. I would be a third class citizen in pakistan ( thats if i am alive). I fit in very well here thank you. Muslims are behind because of education. If you are a competent, educated country its very hard to keep you down. Look at South Korea. In the 1960s pakistan and South korea were more or less the same. Look at them now. Get educated, empower your women. Erdogan will throw other muslim countries under the bus to get any leverage. Look how he has used the syrians. How he has treated the Kurds. Only pakistani have this grand delusions of this muslim brotherhood. If you talk to other nationals of muslim origin they would look at you like you are crazy.
    Is this a response to my post? You should quote me.

    Nobody said anything about not getting educated. Ofcourse education is necessary. That's what gave muslims the edge for so many centuries.

    I understand you are an atheist and things would be bad for you in Pakistan but they shouldnt be if we speak about an Islamic set up. If you're an atheist then that's your own business. Unfortunately that's not how things work in Pakistan and it's always more convenient to simply move out rather than work for change. Good that you fit in very well in the US but clearly it has to do more with you not adhering to any religion. Even though i believe they'll still not accept you on all levels. You are like a role reversed Devshirme who should have been among us but end up furthering and advocating the enemies' cause after being nurtured by them. By you i dont mean you individually but those who choose this path in life. Like I said, a result producing global power is attractive. If tomorrow muslims become the dominant force in the world again, many among your kind will go back from Tony to Muhammad. Again, by you i dont mean you individually.

    I dont really care about Erdogan to be honest . What was my criteria again? Let me reiterate it for you, "If erdogan fails in tapping into the demographic potential of muslim world, only then I'll say he has failed."

    You are claiming he will throw muslims under the bus. Let him get into a position of such global power and then do that. What will happen if he throws everyone under the bus? Will the great muslims of 21st century lose their stature? Well, we dont have one to begin with. We are already in a pathetic state and he will then be called just another failure. But he (or any muslim leader for that matter) needs to get into that position of global power today. It's a necessity for the muslim world because of the doldrums we are in. The muslims of the world need a rallying point and i understand why that's a scary idea for some. What makes you think i haven't talked to muslims of other countries? I have. They do have a faith in muslim brotherhood but they do feel hopeless and many have given up. And hence, they need a new hope in a strong, concrete global muslim block. Islam is structured in such a way that the muslims need global leaders. It is different than the concept of nation states at a fundamental level. Now, at the same time I am not delusional. I just mentioned that the Islamic world is screaming for a strong global leader, the position is up for grabs, Erdogan is trying and is doing fine so far. I do understand that it's not going to happen tomorrow if it will happen at all and it's not going to be easy. It is a need though. A very big need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Because we have an ideology of our own. That's what makes us who we are and shapes our identity. And without that, we are nothing. Just meaningless, petty individuals. The lowest of the low, squabbling over petty things, indulging in activities which are unbecoming of us. We can never change it indvidually, only collectively. Read my first reply to you:
    .
    You think every religion should have a leader? How will that workout for citizens of other religions when that leader falls?


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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    You think every religion should have a leader? How will that workout for citizens of other religions when that leader falls?
    For starters, I'm not concerned with other religions because i don't associate with them. Secondly, muslims form a quarter of the world's population with over 50 countries where they are in a majority. Surely you see the incentive in creating a global muslim block? Personally i dont care how practicing the muslims are of Islam but there needs to be a muslim nationalism. Again, i am not discussing how possible it is or how likely it is to achieve something like this. I am just mentioning an important need in the muslim world which is suffering right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    For starters, I'm not concerned with other religions because i don't associate with them. Secondly, muslims form a quarter of the world's population with over 50 countries where they are in a majority. Surely you see the incentive in creating a global muslim block? Personally i dont care how practicing the muslims are of Islam but there needs to be a muslim nationalism. Again, i am not discussing how possible it is or how likely it is to achieve something like this. I am just mentioning an important need in the muslim world which is suffering right now.
    That explains everything and this is how it is, atleast you are honest about it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    That explains everything and this is how it is, atleast you are honest about it.
    I am pretty sure you have misunderstood me. The part you highlighted was an answer to this question of yours.

    "You think every religion should have a leader?"

    I answered in context of the discussion. Being a supporter of a global muslim block, what you asked is not my concern. Hope you understood now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    That explains everything and this is how it is, atleast you are honest about it.
    Problem are secularists who fight against their own co-religionists and become tools of the enemy, when their religion is crying for all the support it can gather.


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