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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sa88 View Post
    OP is symptomatic of our overly risk averse society. People die. Older people die more than younger people.

    Now that appears to be a very callous statement but it is true. The average age of death from Covid-19 is 82. Below the age of 40, your chances of dying from Covid are vanishingly small. Even an 80 year old has a better than 90% chance of surviving covid.

    As a society we need to strike a balance between managing covid, managing other aspects of health and managing the financial future of millions of people in our country. Millions of people missing treatment for cancers, diabetes and other serious illnesses should not be sacrificed just to manage covid in isolation. Likewise, the ability of people to put a roof over their family’s head and put food on the table shouldn’t be sacrificed either.

    Ultimately if we continue to view the current crisis solely through the prism of covid cases, hospitalisations etc, we will do untold damage to society. Don’t be surprised if that creates a massive political backlash and further fuels polarisation and populism in societies.
    Have you had any near neighbours, friends or close relatives die due to covid-19? It's a very simple question, requiring a very simple straightforward answer. Of course, an honest answer would be preferable.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  2. #82
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    No.

    But I have neighbours, friends and family members worried about their livelihoods, about their ability to provide for their families.

    Take a longer view of history. Covid is relatively benign when compared to the Spanish flu, the Black Death and various bacterial diseases before the advent of antibiotics.

    However, in our myopic focus on one illness we are tearing apart the fabric of our society and it will take many many years if not decades to fully recover from the damage we have caused.

    A more holistic view balancing covid with other health outcomes, peoples livelihoods and the future of younger generations is likely to lead to better outcomes than harsh measure that only suppress the virus temporarily.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sa88 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Have you had any near neighbours, friends or close relatives die due to covid-19? It's a very simple question, requiring a very simple straightforward answer. Of course, an honest answer would be preferable.
    No..
    I thought so.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  4. #84
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    OP take a look outside, go to your local high street if you can. Touch the floor surface with your shoes of the real world. Shops upon shops have been boarded up. Businesses are shutting down left right and centre. Thousands of jobs are being lost every day. Government promises of help are not coming through for each and everyone. Depression is at an all time rise. Domestic abuse is at an all time rise. Wake and smell the coffee pal!

    It may be that you have a detest to socialising, or a hate towards the hospitality sector and entertainments because you have a PS4, XBOX or whatever to get you through your self isolation by playing COD online with a headphone on, but there are people in this world who do not know anything but to serve popcorn and drinks at the cinema to earn a living.

    So so enraging. And don’t come back with “have you had anyone lose their life due to covid” argument. Enough of this sentimental propaganda as it got you through months of picking up free paycheques from the government.
    Last edited by The Viper; 26th October 2020 at 18:55.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Have you had any near neighbours, friends or close relatives die due to covid-19? It's a very simple question, requiring a very simple straightforward answer. Of course, an honest answer would be preferable.
    I have.

    What's your point?




    Sua cuique voluptas.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    I have.

    What's your point?
    Its the classic double bind. There is no way out. Its been all over Covid threads on Twitter all year. Can see it coming a mile off.

    Has anyone you know died of it? - No - Then your opinion is not valid at all.

    Has anyone you know died of it? - Yes - So do you agree with me? - No - Then you are a heartless monster!!!

    etc.

    These attempted emotional blackmail tactics in debate are acutely transparent, painfully predictable and as old as the hills. They are neither clever nor convincing.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sa88 View Post
    No.

    But I have neighbours, friends and family members worried about their livelihoods, about their ability to provide for their families.

    Take a longer view of history. Covid is relatively benign when compared to the Spanish flu, the Black Death and various bacterial diseases before the advent of antibiotics.

    However, in our myopic focus on one illness we are tearing apart the fabric of our society and it will take many many years if not decades to fully recover from the damage we have caused.

    A more holistic view balancing covid with other health outcomes, peoples livelihoods and the future of younger generations is likely to lead to better outcomes than harsh measure that only suppress the virus temporarily.
    Another full post ignored.

    He selectively quoted the first word of your post, and ignored the rest.

    Probably best for us all to depart this thread and leave our hopeless OP to continue staring at his navel.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Have you had any near neighbours, friends or close relatives die due to covid-19? It's a very simple question, requiring a very simple straightforward answer. Of course, an honest answer would be preferable.
    I rather die once from corona then my well being being impacted as the economy is nose diving. It is easy for a lot of us to generalise, however, we fail to understand what others feel whose livelihoods have been adversary impacted. Consider taxi drivers who have X amount of fixed
    monthly financial liabilities, these lockdown has pretty much finished their industry. How will they survive?

  9. #89
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    To those ranting and raving against some of the views I've expressed in this thread, all I will say is that, one by one, local councils, the govt, and many governments around Europe are taking the advice of scientists and beginning to implement partial or full lock downs.

    Whilst those against such measures primarily fit the description mentioned in my earlier post (copy below) along with, as yet, being fortunate in not having friends and/or loved ones dying due to covid-19.

    I won't mention them individually, but you can judge who they are going by their posts in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Actually something doesnt seem right if you look at the bigger picture.

    Two things have happened simultaneously.

    1. The mortality rate has decreased. And this is primarily NOT because we have found Ramdesivir but strangely enough, we simply dont see THAT many fatally sick patients checking into ER, to begin with.
    Remember how it was in the first wave?
    And I know this for a fact that I have spoken to at least 5 ER physicians who somewhat agree with this notion.
    We are simply (and Thankfully) not seeing that many fatally sick Covid patients checking into the ERs, as we did in the first wave.

    2. Yes there are gullible idiots but there are 100 and millions who actually ARE taking good precautions, yet the infection rate (that seem to have milder symptoms now) in the second wave looks worst than the first one.

    Logically, we shouldve seen a flat or slow and gradual graph going up since many are now taking good precautions with a few who dont - but this thing is going off the charts in the second wave.
    Could it possibly be due to the fact that, in the first phase, it was affecting the public generally, the young, the old, the healthy, those with health issues etc. But due to very limited info on the virus, and the fact that the young and healthy are often asymptomatic, or only have mild symptoms, it was mainly the elderly and those with health issues that were ending up in hospitals and dying? There was also the fear factor amongst all sections of the population. In addition, there was not the same level of resistance to lockdowns as is the case currently, which eventually led to the infection rates coming down.

    Now, the fear factor within the elderly and disabled is still there. And they are taking precautions. Resulting in reduced infection and death rates within these groups.

    But the young and healthy now know that they are highly unlikely to get sick and die, and their fear factor has gone. They now have the mentality "I'm going to be all right Jack even if I catch it".

    I don't have the figures, but I'm betting that the vast majority of current positive tests that we are seeing every day, and rising, are of those who are young and/or healthy, and they are very unlikely to end up in hospital and die. Hence they are less likely to take precautions, and more likely to resist the closing of pubs, bars and clubs. Resulting in being very keen to play down the seriousness of the infection and death rates, and very keen to jump on the bandwagon of the argument that closing down pubs, bars and clubs will have an adverse affect on the economy. Many posters on here fit that very pattern as can be seen by their posts.


    All of the above, taken together, could (IMO) explain the relatively low mortality rates even though the covid-19 positive tests are rising fast


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    I have.

    What's your point?
    ]I don't recall posing that question to you.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Misbah View Post
    I rather die once from corona then my well being being impacted as the economy is nose diving. It is easy for a lot of us to generalise, however, we fail to understand what others feel whose livelihoods have been adversary impacted. Consider taxi drivers who have X amount of fixed
    monthly financial liabilities, these lockdown has pretty much finished their industry. How will they survive?
    Yes of course, and pigs will fly. Incidentally, try expressing that view, about you willing to die, to your close loved ones (eg parents?) and see how they react to it.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    You only 'live with it' if you're young and healthy. Else you die because of it.
    Absolutely and unequivocally not true.



    Even if you are 'old' (70+) and 'unhealthy' (have an underlying condition), you are more likely to survive it then to die from it.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Absolutely and unequivocally not true.



    Even if you are 'old' (70+) and 'unhealthy' (have an underlying condition), you are more likely to survive it then to die from it.
    Trying telling that to the friends and loved ones of the 45,700+ (in the UK alone) who
    have died due to covid-19, and see if the stats you've posted make any difference to them


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Trying telling that to the friends and loved ones of the 45,700+ (in the UK alone) who
    have died due to covid-19, and see if the stats you've posted make any difference to them
    Someone posts up actual facts and stats to prove one of your statements wrong and all you can do is repeat your emotive statements from earlier in the thread.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Someone posts up actual facts and stats to prove one of your statements wrong and all you can do is repeat your emotive statements from earlier in the thread.
    Switch on the news. Then read my opening post. Then ask yourself whether the govts, all over Europe, are/are not starting to take the actions similar to those mentioned in the OP. That is the real measure of the the facts on the ground.

    Stats are only stats until it hits you personally in the guts. Then you change your tune. At least the governments are now starting to listen to the scientists as opposed to listening to the likes of you.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Trying telling that to the friends and loved ones of the 45,700+ (in the UK alone) who
    have died due to covid-19, and see if the stats you've posted make any difference to them
    You tried to pass a statement off as a fact, I called you out on it providing actual facts and now you are bringing emotions into it.

    Yes all those deaths are sad but we have to be pragmatic about it too. The average age of people who have died from COVID in the UK is 83.

    Thousands have died or have had their livelihoods ruined by these restrictive measures, fearmongering and diversion of resources to this one disease with a survival rate of 99%+.
    Last edited by Dios; 30th October 2020 at 16:26.

  17. #97
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    Many people who had their cancer treatments delayed or cancelled this year are now terminally ill, or have already died unnecessarily. This is due to coronavirus restrictions and the National Health Service being turned into the National Covid Service by the UK government. Not sure what lockdown anoraks have to say about this?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    You tried to pass a statement off as a fact, I called you out on it providing actual facts and now you are bringing emotions into it.

    Yes all those deaths are sad but we have to be pragmatic about it too. The average age of people who have died from COVID in the UK is 83.

    Thousands have died or have had their livelihoods ruined by these restrictive measures, fearmongering and diversion of resources to this one disease with a survival rate of 99%+.
    As posted above,

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Switch on the news. Then read my opening post. Then ask yourself whether the govts, all over Europe, are/are not starting to take the actions similar to those mentioned in the OP. That is the real measure of the the facts on the ground.

    Stats are only stats until it hits you personally in the guts. Then you change your tune. At least the governments are now starting to listen to the scientists as opposed to listening to the likes of you.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  19. #99
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    @Yossarian will probably be glad to hear a second lockdown is imminent.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    As posted above,
    There is no consensus of opinion among these 'scientists' that you speak of. I can point you to at least half a dozen eminent scientists who are strongly critical of these measures.

    Besides, scientists can get things wrong too. Do you want me to get into the past modelling and predictions of the notorious fear-mongerer Neil Ferguson upon whose modelling the first lockdown was implemented?

    There were 58.4 million deaths worldwide in 2019. To date, there have been 49.1 million deaths this year ten months in. We could potentially have less deaths this year than we did last year even with this so-called pandemic.

    It seems like you may have lost a loved one to this virus and I sympathise but it is becoming more and more apparent that the cure is worse than the disease.


  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    @Yossarian will probably be glad to hear a second lockdown is imminent.
    Not glad at the need for a lockdown. Nevertheless, vindicated by the fact that it was necessary, and that it should have been brought in weeks ago when the infection and death rates were still low, and the children were about to start half-term school holidays. It would have resulted in a much shorter lockdown period, as well as a better chance to bring it under control, and make the Test, Track and Trace more effective.

    As it is, this delay will result in greater numbers of deaths, a longer lockdown period, and more damage to the economy.

    And oh yes, those ranting and raving at the OP can take a break now.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    There is no consensus of opinion among these 'scientists' that you speak of. I can point you to at least half a dozen eminent scientists who are strongly critical of these measures.

    Besides, scientists can get things wrong too. Do you want me to get into the past modelling and predictions of the notorious fear-mongerer Neil Ferguson upon whose modelling the first lockdown was implemented?

    There were 58.4 million deaths worldwide in 2019. To date, there have been 49.1 million deaths this year ten months in. We could potentially have less deaths this year than we did last year even with this so-called pandemic.

    It seems like you may have lost a loved one to this virus and I sympathise but it is becoming more and more apparent that the cure is worse than the disease.
    Keep on ranting and raving. The govt has finally seen sense and taken action.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  23. #103
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    I need some humble pie. Fair play to the OP he was right, you cant argue with the science. If the experts say such measures are needed then its difficult to argue against that.

  24. #104
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    OP wasn't completely right. He laid the blame on joe public when it was infact severe government negligence that led us to the situation we are in today.

    This government incentivised the public to go out, pretty much implied that everything was back to normal and then plunged us back into a long lockdown.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    I need some humble pie. Fair play to the OP he was right, you can’t argue with the science. If the experts say such measures are needed then it’s difficult to argue against that.
    Science and experts are rather clueless with the virus. Another lockdown, I am already feeling the mental element and the fact that people will not be able to work. This is the govt fault, their eat out, help out made things worse.

  26. #106
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    The same science that said C19 doesn't transfer from human to humans, or that masks will not work? Ahh yes, advice from the top brass of scientists at WHO.

    Blame WHO, they started this nonsense with controversial statements based on science.

    The OPs opinion on the other hand is an emotionally charged one.

  27. #107
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    Quick question to OP

    Whats worse

    die due to COVID
    Or
    Live long enough to see your family die of hunger?

    I stayed home long enough to see my job and savings goes away. There comes a time when we need to make a peace with the situation and try to take necessary precaution and learn to live it. Humanity have survived to Word Wars, Im sure we can survive COVID.

    Please Im not in any form disrespecting any one who have lost dear ones. Being an immunocompromised myself I understand the serious nature of COVID, but I cant also ignore the economic implications in life. I have accepted it as part of my life and trying to live with it. Take precautions and stay safe is my suggestion, complete shutdown is not.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    OP wasn't completely right. He laid the blame on joe public when it was infact severe government negligence that led us to the situation we are in today.

    This government incentivised the public to go out, pretty much implied that everything was back to normal and then plunged us back into a long lockdown.
    There is such a thing as personal responsibility. In this case personal responsibility to wash your hands, keep social distancing, wear masks, and all the other recommended good practices to reduce the possibility of being infected and/or infecting others.

    It's because large proportions of the general public refused to do that is why we're having a resurgence in infections. Had people followed the recommended guidelines, there would now be no need for bars/pubs to be closed and second lockdown.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Misbah View Post
    Science and experts are rather clueless with the virus. Another lockdown, I am already feeling the mental element and the fact that people will not be able to work. This is the govt fault, their eat out, help out made things worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The same science that said C19 doesn't transfer from human to humans, or that masks will not work? Ahh yes, advice from the top brass of scientists at WHO.

    Blame WHO, they started this nonsense with controversial statements based on science.

    The OPs opinion on the other hand is an emotionally charged one.
    Rant and rave as much as you like, but the govt has decided, with advice from scientists, that there will be another lockdown.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  30. #110
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    I think OP forgotton that the government is relying on the same flawed science as before. The first lockdown didn't make a difference, delusional to think the second lockdown will work.

    Remember, the government knew of the second wave back in April.

    Covid cases do not equate to covid deaths. You don't need to be a scientist to realise this fact.

    Don't fall for the emotive rhetoric.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Quick question to OP

    Whats worse

    die due to COVID
    Or
    Live long enough to see your family die of hunger?

    I stayed home long enough to see my job and savings goes away. There comes a time when we need to make a peace with the situation and try to take necessary precaution and learn to live it. Humanity have survived to Word Wars, Im sure we can survive COVID.

    Please Im not in any form disrespecting any one who have lost dear ones. Being an immunocompromised myself I understand the serious nature of COVID, but I cant also ignore the economic implications in life. I have accepted it as part of my life and trying to live with it. Take precautions and stay safe is my suggestion, complete shutdown is not.
    What happens in Canada is up to the Canadian govt, and the Canadian people. This thread is about the UK. I can't speak for Canada, but nobody's family is going to die from hunger in the UK.
    Hardship, yes. Financial problems, yes. But families dying from hunger in the UK due to covid-19? ....err ...no.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Rant and rave as much as you like, but the govt has decided, with advice from scientists, that there will be another lockdown.
    You sound so egoistic, I again repeat the government is clueless and to be blamed for the rise in cases. People including me have lost trust in the government.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I think OP forgotton that the government is relying on the same flawed science as before. The first lockdown didn't make a difference, delusional to think the second lockdown will work.

    Remember, the government knew of the second wave back in April.

    Covid cases do not equate to covid deaths. You don't need to be a scientist to realise this fact.

    Don't fall for the emotive rhetoric.
    The decision has been taken by the govt. No point trying to tell me my OP is wrong to say what it says. That boat has sailed.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Misbah View Post
    You sound so egoistic, I again repeat the government is clueless and to be blamed for the rise in cases. People including me have lost trust in the government.
    See the post above.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    I need some humble pie. Fair play to the OP he was right, you can’t argue with the science. If the experts say such measures are needed then it’s difficult to argue against that.
    And I applaud you sir for saying that. Pity that others are still beating the same old drum even though, rightly or wrongly, the govt has made it's decision. The boat has left the harbour and sailed.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  36. #116
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    Oh god. I get it. The OP is blowing his trumpet because the government has imposed a puesdo national lockdown, with schools, colleges, universities open.

    Bars/restraunts will be open for delivery only, and off licenses open because alcohol has been classed as an essential item.

    He didn't read the small print.

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    See the post above.
    No, your just too emotional. I see no point debating with emotional people, waste of time. You have no logic or consider the wider picture.

  38. #118
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    PS: The OP didn't predict anything. The government had planned a second national lockdown as part of the second wave planning back in April. Hence the 3-Tier staggered approach.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    PS: The OP didn't predict anything. The government had planned a second national lockdown as part of the second wave planning back in April. Hence the 3-Tier staggered approach.
    Never said I predicted it. If you read the OP again, I was simply pointing out why. IMO, the infection rate was on the rise again, " the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!"

    In fact, as I've stated above, "Had people followed the recommended guidelines, there would now be no need for bars/pubs to be closed and second lockdown."

    If you can't comprehend the logic of that, then all I can say is tough luck.
    Last edited by The Viper; 2nd November 2020 at 05:47.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  40. #120
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    I predict water will be wet.

    Someone hand the medal of tautology to the OP.

    LOL!

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Never said I predicted it. If you read the OP again, I was simply pointing out why. IMO, the infection rate was on the rise again, " the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!"

    In fact, as I've stated above, "Had people followed the recommended guidelines, there would now be no need for bars/pubs to be closed and second lockdown."

    If you can't comprehend the logic of that, then all I can say is tough luck.
    Good because you didnt.

    However we can now put your theory to the test. Can you confirm if you AGREE with a month long lockdown or would you like a longer one? 2 months, 6 months , 1 year?
    Last edited by The Viper; 2nd November 2020 at 05:47.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    What happens in Canada is up to the Canadian govt, and the Canadian people. This thread is about the UK. I can't speak for Canada, but nobody's family is going to die from hunger in the UK.
    Hardship, yes. Financial problems, yes. But families dying from hunger in the UK due to covid-19? ....err ...no.
    This thread maybe related to Uk but you have to understand that it aint easy.

    My POV was general

  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Good because you didnt.
    Read!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    There is such a thing as personal responsibility. In this case personal responsibility to wash your hands, keep social distancing, wear masks, and all the other recommended good practices to reduce the possibility of being infected and/or infecting others.

    It's because large proportions of the general public refused to do that is why we're having a resurgence in infections. Had people followed the recommended guidelines, there would now be no need for bars/pubs to be closed and second lockdown.
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    However we can now put your theory to the test. Can you confirm if you AGREE with a month long lockdown or would you like a longer one? 2 months, 6 months , 1 year?
    If the gormless morons follow all the recommended guidelines and take all the advised precautions, a month long lock down will be more than enough.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  44. #124
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    The OP is not addressing the point of WHO, and their inconsistent advise based on science.

    If WHO were upfront and had a clue, maybe the number of C19 deaths would be lower now and this thread wouldn't exist.

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    There is such a thing as personal responsibility. In this case personal responsibility to wash your hands, keep social distancing, wear masks, and all the other recommended good practices to reduce the possibility of being infected and/or infecting others.

    It's because large proportions of the general public refused to do that is why we're having a resurgence in infections. Had people followed the recommended guidelines, there would now be no need for bars/pubs to be closed and second lockdown.
    I disagree with the bolded somewhat.

    Some people have absolutely behaved moronically, but the majority have abided by rules, distanced, washed hands. If not totally or 100% of the time, they have done so the vast majority of the time, as shown by our cases over here dropping from the high hundreds to about ten a day for several weeks.

    The issue is , as recent elections show, there's a minority of people out there who are, for lack of a better term, thick as mince. It only takes one to infect dozens as we've seen over the months by going to a houseparty with other likeminded folk. Or you could've gone to a restaurant, distanced, but 1 staff member was asymptomatic, slipped through the net and now dozens have it

    The facts are every lockdown in the world is only a delaying tactic. That is fine as a temporary measure to stop the overloading of medical services but sooner or later people will just throw caution to the wind. Honestly I think its already happened, we've lockdowned again two weeks ago and while I've no doubt itll work again, there's clearly not the same vibe, people are tiring and the medical experts are losing the people or they arent listening anymore. 100 deaths in the month at three a day is still tragic, but its nowhere near as bad as April and complacency is starting to come in because, well, people are social, young people particularly, and they are effectively immune to this barring any serious health issues. Doesn't justify the behaviour but asking that agregroup to distance for months on end will never ever work.

    Australia dn NZ are free right now, after months of hard lockdown yes, but once things open again they'll be back in a similar situation.


    See You Space Cowboy....

  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    I disagree with the bolded somewhat.

    Some people have absolutely behaved moronically, but the majority have abided by rules, distanced, washed hands. If not totally or 100% of the time, they have done so the vast majority of the time, as shown by our cases over here dropping from the high hundreds to about ten a day for several weeks.

    The issue is , as recent elections show, there's a minority of people out there who are, for lack of a better term, thick as mince. It only takes one to infect dozens as we've seen over the months by going to a houseparty with other likeminded folk. Or you could've gone to a restaurant, distanced, but 1 staff member was asymptomatic, slipped through the net and now dozens have it

    The facts are every lockdown in the world is only a delaying tactic. That is fine as a temporary measure to stop the overloading of medical services but sooner or later people will just throw caution to the wind. Honestly I think its already happened, we've lockdowned again two weeks ago and while I've no doubt itll work again, there's clearly not the same vibe, people are tiring and the medical experts are losing the people or they arent listening anymore. 100 deaths in the month at three a day is still tragic, but its nowhere near as bad as April and complacency is starting to come in because, well, people are social, young people particularly, and they are effectively immune to this barring any serious health issues. Doesn't justify the behaviour but asking that agregroup to distance for months on end will never ever work.

    Australia dn NZ are free right now, after months of hard lockdown yes, but once things open again they'll be back in a similar situation.
    Putting aside the fact that I still don't believe that this virus is as serious as it is being made out to be, the OP seems to be totally missing the fact that cases and deaths have risen pretty much everywhere in western Europe. Even the Germans who have been praised for their adherence to guidelines and how they have dealt with the virus in general are in the same predicament.

    I myself was in Italy in September and saw how people were still largely following the rules even though cases had dropped to very low-levels but they are also now back to where they were and cases there are rising at an alarming rate.

    So there is a bit more to it then 'morons not taking the necessary precautions'. But tbh the OP has offered very little in terms of logical reasoning in this thread and maybe he should consider stepping down from his high-horse.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Read!!



    If the gormless morons follow all the recommended guidelines and take all the advised precautions, a month long lock down will be more than enough.
    This is an easy cop out. After a month you will still see cases rising but the blame will go on 'brainless morons' and always will when things dont work out as you expected.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  48. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    This is an easy cop out. After a month you will still see cases rising but the blame will go on 'brainless morons' and always will when things dont work out as you expected.
    Cases are actually already down on a week-on-week basis and the so-called 'second-wave' has already peaked. The Zoe CSS survey estimates that the R-rate is now close to 1 across the country. But of course they will claim that it is because of the lockdown when in fact case numbers are going down even before lockdown has been enforced.


  49. #129
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    The flu kills tens of thousands of people a year in the UK every single year. Why don't we lockdown the country to try and prevent those deaths? Evidently lockdowns / social distancing work very well for combatting flu deaths as shown by flu deaths being at a record low this year. So why do we accept those deaths as a fact of life and continue on with our lives? What is so special about this virus that makes it so much more tragic when someone dies from it?

  50. #130
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    Places of worship want to remain open. I see where they are coming from but if you make an exception here then others will want the same - eg gyms.


  51. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    The flu kills tens of thousands of people a year in the UK every single year. Why don't we lockdown the country to try and prevent those deaths? Evidently lockdowns / social distancing work very well for combatting flu deaths as shown by flu deaths being at a record low this year. So why do we accept those deaths as a fact of life and continue on with our lives? What is so special about this virus that makes it so much more tragic when someone dies from it?
    The mortality rate for flu is 0.1% for each person infected, whereas, as an average across all age groups, the mortality rate for covid-19 is 3% to 4% for each person infected (although it varies dramatically across the age groups).

    Meaning that, for someone who's infected ( as an average across all age groups), the Covid-19 death rate is 30 to 40 times more than the death rate for flu.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The mortality rate for flu is 0.1% for each person infected, whereas, as an average across all age groups, the mortality rate for covid-19 is 3% to 4% for each person infected (although it varies dramatically across the age groups).

    Meaning that, for someone who's infected ( as an average across all age groups), the Covid-19 death rate is 30 to 40 times more than the death rate for flu.
    That is just not true. I posted the survival rates by age group as estimated by the CDC earlier in this thread. You are confusing case fatality rate with actual infection fatality rate.

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    That is just not true. I posted the survival rates by age group as estimated by the CDC earlier in this thread. You are confusing case fatality rate with actual infection fatality rate.
    From personal experience, there is no point arguing. The OP has a set mind and anyone with an alternate viewpoint is a heartless monster.

  54. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    That is just not true. I posted the survival rates by age group as estimated by the CDC earlier in this thread. You are confusing case fatality rate with actual infection fatality rate.
    "There's lies, damned lies, and statistics". You're right of course. And the whole world, including virtually every leader and govt. on Earth, other than the recently defeated Donald Trump, are making a bigger deal of Covid-19 than they should. And you're right of course, flu is way more dangerous than Covid-19.
    Satisfied?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayle_Force View Post
    From personal experience, there is no point arguing. The OP has a set mind and anyone with an alternate viewpoint is a heartless monster.
    See above post.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  56. #136
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    So Boris has ordered an investigation into how the suspect Covid 19 projection data was leaked. Data which was the basis of the second lockdown. Data which has been questioned by scientists. The cat is almost out the bag!

    Mean while half of USA is jumping for joy, as if they don't even care about C19.

  57. #137
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    Covid data 'exaggerating' risk, medics and academics tell Boris Johnson

    Official data is "exaggerating" the current risk posed by Covid-19, a coalition of almost 500 senior doctors and scientists warned on Saturday, claiming talk of a second wave is "misleading".

    In a joint letter to Boris Johnson, the medics and academics say the Government's approach to the pandemic has become "disproportionate" and is "causing more harm than good".

    They warn that mass testing is "distorting the current risk" from the virus, with tests likely to be producing high numbers of "false positive" results and providing a poor indication of whether someone is infectious, and say the Government must do more to place increasing infection and deaths "in the context of the normal seasonal illness/death rate".

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...boris-johnson/

  58. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    So Boris has ordered an investigation into how the suspect Covid 19 projection data was leaked. Data which was the basis of the second lockdown. Data which has been questioned by scientists. The cat is almost out the bag!

    Mean while half of USA is jumping for joy, as if they don't even care about C19.
    It is staggering how Vallance / Whitty still have their jobs. First, it was the 'prediction but not a prediction' of 50,000 cases a day by early October which never materialised. Then implementing a national lockdown based on straight-up wrong data. Let's not even get into Vallance's conflicts of interest.

    These are the scientists certain posters are putting their blind faith in.

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    The flu kills tens of thousands of people a year in the UK every single year. Why don't we lockdown the country to try and prevent those deaths? Evidently lockdowns / social distancing work very well for combatting flu deaths as shown by flu deaths being at a record low this year. So why do we accept those deaths as a fact of life and continue on with our lives? What is so special about this virus that makes it so much more tragic when someone dies from it?
    I'm no medic by any stretch of the imagination, but does flu carry the viral load risk that Covid does?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I'm no medic by any stretch of the imagination, but does flu carry the viral load risk that Covid does?
    Don't you understand that getting the flu is far more dangerous than Covid-19, including for the elderly and those with other health conditions? At least that's what some posters are implying, or even directly stating, in this thread. And the governments all over the world are just scare mongering the public for their own ends. Coved-19 a dangerous pandemic? Nah, it's just a great big con.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”


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