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  1. #1
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    Indian Media concocts story of a surgical Strike in Pakistan - Indian Army denies

    Some of the Indian news channels are reporting about a Surgical Strike in Pakistani Kashmir. No news in Pakistan so far. Is it another drama or what?


    Rlaely it deson’t mttaer waht I wirte you’ll sitll uanrtednsnd it

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  3. #3
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    This is from Zaid Hamid Twitter handle.

    Entire Indian media has suddenly gone into a mad frenzy claiming that they have made an Air raid inside Pakistan.

    In all probability, this is a fake claim..
    A bombastic propaganda bulshit...

    Any real Indian strike will be responded with counter strikes...!


    Rlaely it deson’t mttaer waht I wirte you’ll sitll uanrtednsnd it

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    Seems like fake news...but if it isn't then India should await humiliation like Feb last year.

  5. #5
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    fake newj ....



    The Griffins ....

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    India media is becoming an embarrassment for their own army.

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    For all we know Indian Army was planning something and the media sainaks outed the plan!


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runner Up View Post
    This is from Zaid Hamid Twitter handle.
    Lol why is he being given as a source. He’s a grade A clown

  9. #9
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    A picture is worth a thousand words.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Lol why is he being given as a source. He’s a grade A clown
    Although at this stage seems his news is more accurate than Indian media, so I guess that must make them Grade A+ clowns.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaag Viru Bhaag View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    The commander in chief, Captain Birdseye is ready for battle.

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    Indian news claimed another 'strike on POK'

    Till their army clarified it was fake news the most pathetic media of any country. I have never seen such a hate mongering media in any nation except India's.

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    Pakistan should be ready this winter.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Pakistan should be ready this winter.
    They should be ready at all times.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by msaaim89 View Post
    They should be ready at all times.
    Thats right but there is an elevated threat this winter or early spring next year. We are entering an interesting period.

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    What is POK? It's an occupation when you place half a million to a million army against local's will and monitor the region and innocent people and take away their rights for over 70 years. Azad Kashmir is as free as they come. Went there last year and did not see a single army unit or check post, other than probably close to the border.

    Neighbours love using this term to counter their illegal inhumane occupation in IOK and brainwash their people.

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    Well, see this is where I am trying to make sense of things. India blames Pakistan of violating LOC ceasefire, then claims that "unke ander ghuske mara" which in turn is a violation of LOC ceasefire. So why blame Pakistan for LOC ceasefire when india is claiming they did that with a "surgical strike".

    Second angle to see this also results negatively for india. India claims that past LOC is their land. So if you are supposedly doing "surgical strike" then why come back behind the LOC. If it is your land as you claim then you would stay there, right?

    Both the scenarios I presented above ends negatively for india.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriketer View Post
    What is POK? It's an occupation when you place half a million to a million army against local's will and monitor the region and innocent people and take away their rights for over 70 years. Azad Kashmir is as free as they come. Went there last year and did not see a single army unit or check post, other than probably close to the border.

    Neighbours love using this term to counter their illegal inhumane occupation in IOK and brainwash their people.
    If Indian Occupied Kashmir is able to gain freedom from India and they ask the Pakistani government to give up control of Azad Kashmir so that Kashmir can become one independent state.

    What do you think the Pakistani government will do or should do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriketer View Post
    What is POK? It's an occupation when you place half a million to a million army against local's will and monitor the region and innocent people and take away their rights for over 70 years. Azad Kashmir is as free as they come. Went there last year and did not see a single army unit or check post, other than probably close to the border.

    Neighbours love using this term to counter their illegal inhumane occupation in IOK and brainwash their people.
    I guess it's because it ain't Azad yet. It's still controlled by Pak after the occupation. Hence, POK.

    Many have wondered that Pak's case would be stronger if they actually let their Kashmir truly Azad.

    My estimate is the Indian soldiers will start leaving in the next decade. Kashmiris will have given up by then. Their economy will be stronger. The demographic changes in the next few decades means, it will be a very peaceful place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhony View Post
    I guess it's because it ain't Azad yet. It's still controlled by Pak after the occupation. Hence, POK.

    Many have wondered that Pak's case would be stronger if they actually let their Kashmir truly Azad.

    My estimate is the Indian soldiers will start leaving in the next decade. Kashmiris will have given up by then. Their economy will be stronger. The demographic changes in the next few decades means, it will be a very peaceful place.
    ‘Azad’ Kashmir is the most ironic name.

    We cannot occupy a part of Kashmir, call it ‘Azad’ and then support the right of Kashmiris to self-determination.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    ‘Azad’ Kashmir is the most ironic name.

    We cannot occupy a part of Kashmir, call it ‘Azad’ and then support the right of Kashmiris to self-determination.
    Have you ever been Azad Kashmir? Stop commenting from Delhi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    If Indian Occupied Kashmir is able to gain freedom from India and they ask the Pakistani government to give up control of Azad Kashmir so that Kashmir can become one independent state.

    What do you think the Pakistani government will do or should do?
    The Pakistani government should conduct a plebiscite in this case so we know whether Azad Kashmir wants to become one independent state. That’s how it works. Self determination.

    Same applies to IoK - they should be allowed to decide whether to stay in India, join Pak, or become independent. Instead, there is 1. presence of military 2. stifling of discussion/discourse on the options available 3. forced demographic changes to alter the composition of the population and 4. no option available for a plebiscite .

    These are the four fundamental differences with Pakistan - to the best of my knowledge, there is no suppression of activism in Azad Kashmir on these lines, the way Pakistan suppresses Balochis or PTM supporters.

    I do not have a crystal ball and I do not know what the Pakistani government will do. But right now there are barely any protests on a wide scale while in IoK people continue to stand up despite suppression.

    Ideally, two censuses are held in both regions, monitored by the UN.

    The second best solution is the Musharraf-Vajpayee plan to open up the border and allow free movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    ‘Azad’ Kashmir is the most ironic name.

    We cannot occupy a part of Kashmir, call it ‘Azad’ and then support the right of Kashmiris to self-determination.
    Please visit Azad Kashmir first. I visit frequently and most people there live peacefully and happily.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    The Pakistani government should conduct a plebiscite in this case so we know whether Azad Kashmir wants to become one independent state. That’s how it works. Self determination.

    Same applies to IoK - they should be allowed to decide whether to stay in India, join Pak, or become independent. Instead, there is 1. presence of military 2. stifling of discussion/discourse on the options available 3. forced demographic changes to alter the composition of the population and 4. no option available for a plebiscite .

    These are the four fundamental differences with Pakistan - to the best of my knowledge, there is no suppression of activism in Azad Kashmir on these lines, the way Pakistan suppresses Balochis or PTM supporters.

    I do not have a crystal ball and I do not know what the Pakistani government will do. But right now there are barely any protests on a wide scale while in IoK people continue to stand up despite suppression.

    Ideally, two censuses are held in both regions, monitored by the UN.

    The second best solution is the Musharraf-Vajpayee plan to open up the border and allow free movement.
    Pakistan will never let Azad Kashmir go. If it has to use force to suppress a separatist movement it will. If it comes down to it, the Pakistani state will not hesitate to do what it did in East Pakistan.

    In truth, the people of Azad Kashmir do not have a choice. There will be peace in the region only if they are happy with the status quo.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    Please visit Azad Kashmir first. I visit frequently and most people there live peacefully and happily.
    I agree that most people in Azad Kashmir do not want independence. A small independence movement does exist but it is not reported by the local media.

    However, the people of Azad Kashmir will not be living peacefully and happily if they start to demand independence.

    So in reality, they are not really “Azad”. They are part of the dominion of Pakistan and if they want to change the status quo they will face repercussions.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Misbah View Post
    Have you ever been Azad Kashmir? Stop commenting from Delhi.
    Read my replies to Thunderbolt.

    Also, What do you think will happen if people of Azad Kashmir demand independence? Do you think Pakistan will step aside and allow them to walk out?

    If that is what you think, you are smoking some good stuff.


    Azad Kashmir is not Azad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Read my replies to Thunderbolt.

    Also, What do you think will happen if people of Azad Kashmir demand independence? Do you think Pakistan will step aside and allow them to walk out?

    If that is what you think, you are smoking some good stuff.


    Azad Kashmir is not Azad.
    The same thing that has happened in America American civil war, Sudan. The modern state sovereignty lies in boundaries

  28. #28
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    Exactly.

    People who think that a group of people have the right to decide for themselves are idealists who are out of touch with reality.

    In reality, the concept of freedom exists only at the nation-state level. No country is going to allow its states, provinces, regions to walk out because that is what the people want.

    Spain is resisting Catalonian independence for the same reason that India is not giving IOK independence for the same reason that Pakistan committed a genocide in East Pakistan for the same reason Pakistan will not entertain a separatist movement in AJK for the same reason that China does not recognize HK’s claim to sovereignty.

    A country that allows a separatist movement to succeed weakens the centre and sets a dangerous precedence.

    Pakistan is a free country but it’s provinces are not. They do not have the option to walk out of Pakistan if that is what they want.

    Similar Indian and American states are not free either.

    The concept of the federal government respecting the choice of the people is utopian nonsense that does not exist in the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Exactly.

    People who think that a group of people have the right to decide for themselves are idealists who are out of touch with reality.

    In reality, the concept of freedom exists only at the nation-state level. No country is going to allow its states, provinces, regions to walk out because that is what the people want.

    Spain is resisting Catalonian independence for the same reason that India is not giving IOK independence for the same reason that Pakistan committed a genocide in East Pakistan for the same reason Pakistan will not entertain a separatist movement in AJK for the same reason that China does not recognize HK’s claim to sovereignty.

    A country that allows a separatist movement to succeed weakens the centre and sets a dangerous precedence.

    Pakistan is a free country but it’s provinces are not. They do not have the option to walk out of Pakistan if that is what they want.

    Similar Indian and American states are not free either.

    The concept of the federal government respecting the choice of the people is utopian nonsense that does not exist in the real world.
    Yet Scotland and Quebec both had peaceful referendums, Indonesia also let East Timor secede.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Read my replies to Thunderbolt.

    Also, What do you think will happen if people of Azad Kashmir demand independence? Do you think Pakistan will step aside and allow them to walk out?

    If that is what you think, you are smoking some good stuff.


    Azad Kashmir is not Azad.
    For a lot of us, Azadi means Azadi from India alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    For a lot of us, Azadi means Azadi from India alone.
    The wish of people never ends. First, India wanted freedom from British. But as soon as it was at the verge of getting it, different region wanted to be free from India and hence Pakistan, Bangladesh exists.

    One has to draw the line somewhere after which, no concept of this full fledged azadi won't be allowed. Otherwise, you'll have to cross nations at each step while walking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    Please visit Azad Kashmir first. I visit frequently and most people there live peacefully and happily.
    Absolutely without a doubt. Truth is no one really wants independence from Pak barring jklf movement which is a very small minority.

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    My mother in law and her family are from a small region in Azad Kashmir, people like her would laugh off the suggestion of independence or joining India

    Indians really do live in a world of their own delusion. Pakistanis have massive support in UK whenever our team visits. And a large amount of those people are Mirpuris who love Pakistan.

    I never believed Indians are deluded and at some points was questioning our own narratives but last Feb has shown how truly brainwashed their society is. And how utter full of laying their entire media apparatus is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    Otherwise, you'll have to cross nations at each step while walking.
    So? Would it be worse than blinding, raping, murdering and torturing people who dont want to be with you?

    I didnt respond to the rest of your post because it didnt make any sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    So? Would it be worse than blinding, raping, murdering and torturing people who dont want to be with you?

    I didnt respond to the rest of your post because it didnt make any sense.
    It didn't make any sense because you don't have any answers to it or you want to ignore it. It's a common human psychology that every entities want it's own recognition. If you support every movement of being independent, where should it be stopped according to you?

    It's a simple question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    The wish of people never ends. First, India wanted freedom from British. But as soon as it was at the verge of getting it, different region wanted to be free from India and hence Pakistan, Bangladesh exists.

    One has to draw the line somewhere after which, no concept of this full fledged azadi won't be allowed. Otherwise, you'll have to cross nations at each step while walking.
    Once the decision was made to separate the two countries based on religion of the population, then Kashmir should always have been part of Pakistan. Now you are having to hold a once beautiful region with close to a million soldiers.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Once the decision was made to separate the two countries based on religion of the population, then Kashmir should always have been part of Pakistan. Now you are having to hold a once beautiful region with close to a million soldiers.
    Your post has nothing to do with the content that I wrote.

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    Pakistan obviously considers all of Kashmir its part. But would an independent Kashmir (if such a thing was to ever happen) really be a cause of concern for Pakistan? The answer is no. With the kind of repression India has subjected on Kashmiris through out history they would obviously be close to Pakistan, rather than India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedwoodOriginal View Post
    Pakistan obviously considers all of Kashmir its part. But would an independent Kashmir (if such a thing was to ever happen) really be a cause of concern for Pakistan? The answer is no. With the kind of repression India has subjected on Kashmiris through out history they would obviously be close to Pakistan, rather than India.
    You failed to grasp the concept that was mamoon speaking about. It has nothing to do with India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    You failed to grasp the concept that was mamoon speaking about. It has nothing to do with India.
    He is completely off-base if he thinks only Azad Kashmir constitutes as Kashmir. Azad Kashmir and the valley yes. Either one, not exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    It didn't make any sense because you don't have any answers to it or you want to ignore it. It's a common human psychology that every entities want it's own recognition. If you support every movement of being independent, where should it be stopped according to you?

    It's a simple question.
    Yes i dont have answers to illogical statements and fallacies gallore.
    It should be stopped when you dont have to kill, blind, rape and torture. Is that hard for you to accept? If yes, then you should do some soul searching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Yes i dont have answers to illogical statements and fallacies gallore.
    It should be stopped when you dont have to kill, blind, rape and torture. Is that hard for you to accept? If yes, then you should do some soul searching.
    That's the question. At which level you believe the separation should be stopped in a country?

    Libya civil war what happened? They were freed from one regime where they all stood together and threw qadaffi out. Did killing stopped post qadaffi?

    Pakistan was born out of undivided India. But even Muslims couldn't live peacefully together and a massacre had happened in the hands of west Pakistan.

    You are living an utopian dream and you don't have any answers because reality doesn't follow that utopian model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    That's the question. At which level you believe the separation should be stopped in a country?

    Libya civil war what happened? They were freed from one regime where they all stood together and threw qadaffi out. Did killing stopped post qadaffi?

    Pakistan was born out of undivided India. But even Muslims couldn't live peacefully together and a massacre had happened in the hands of west Pakistan.

    You are living an utopian dream and you don't have any answers because reality doesn't follow that utopian model.
    Maybe at the level where vast majority wants independence from the country starting even from the very birth of the country? And then continuing for 70 years? If you can’t convince a population after 70 years of them asking questions, it means something is horribly wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    That's the question. At which level you believe the separation should be stopped in a country?

    Libya civil war what happened? They were freed from one regime where they all stood together and threw qadaffi out. Did killing stopped post qadaffi?

    Pakistan was born out of undivided India. But even Muslims couldn't live peacefully together and a massacre had happened in the hands of west Pakistan.

    You are living an utopian dream and you don't have any answers because reality doesn't follow that utopian model.
    I gave you the answer didnt i? If you dont want to see the answer then what can i do? My answer is that if you have to kill and maim a people to keep them with you then you are an occupier of their land. It ends where it ends.

    What Utopia? I understand it might look like Utopia to Indians to let others live in peace but it is quite realistic. It might be shocking to you but not forcing others to stay under your power using military might is quite a realistic choice.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    I gave you the answer didnt i? If you dont want to see the answer then what can i do? My answer is that if you have to kill and maim a people to keep them with you then you are an occupier of their land. It ends where it ends.

    What Utopia? I understand it might look like Utopia to Indians to let others live in peace but it is quite realistic. It might be shocking to you but not forcing others to stay under your power using military might is quite a realistic choice.
    Look at it from the perspective of India. Every nation state has to draw the line somewhere as far as separatist movements are concerned.

    A central government that keeps succumbing to independence movements will come across as weak and will set a dangerous precedent.

    What if tomorrow UP demands independence? What if they say that we are the largest state, we have more people than Pakistan and Bangladesh. We can be our own country and live according to our own rules. What will the Indian government do in that scenario?

    Will they keep giving into the demands of the people? Until when?

    No people are truly free. It is just an illusion. You are free only until you respect and acknowledge national boundaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Look at it from the perspective of India. Every nation state has to draw the line somewhere as far as separatist movements are concerned.

    A central government that keeps succumbing to independence movements will come across as weak and will set a dangerous precedent.

    What if tomorrow UP demands independence? What if they say that we are the largest state, we have more people than Pakistan and Bangladesh. We can be our own country and live according to our own rules. What will the Indian government do in that scenario?

    Will they keep giving into the demands of the people? Until when?

    No people are truly free. It is just an illusion. You are free only until you respect and acknowledge national boundaries.
    First of all these are apples are oranges you are comparing. Kashmiris were fighting for freedom way before India and Pakistan got independence.

    Secondly, every state will not suddenly demand separation. If that is the case then something is wrong with your policies towards those people and it was a rebelliom waiting to happen. Multiple states dont suddenly demand freedom. There is barely any precedence or evidence for this.

    Alright, forget all of that. You asked what if UP suddenly demands independence. I'd say give it to them if they truly want to be separate and if you have to keep them with you by force of military which causes death and destruction. Central govt is there to serve people, not become an elected colonizer. Even if every gully mohalla becomes independent, and if it stops bloodshed, it should be done. But like i said, there is no evidence that such demands will arise out of nowhere.

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    Indian media may be hit and miss with news, but thankfully the indian army has highest standards for upholding the truth and can always be trusted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    First of all these are apples are oranges you are comparing. Kashmiris were fighting for freedom way before India and Pakistan got independence.

    Secondly, every state will not suddenly demand separation. If that is the case then something is wrong with your policies towards those people and it was a rebelliom waiting to happen. Multiple states dont suddenly demand freedom. There is barely any precedence or evidence for this.

    Alright, forget all of that. You asked what if UP suddenly demands independence. I'd say give it to them if they truly want to be separate and if you have to keep them with you by force of military which causes death and destruction. Central govt is there to serve people, not become an elected colonizer. Even if every gully mohalla becomes independent, and if it stops bloodshed, it should be done. But like i said, there is no evidence that such demands will arise out of nowhere.
    From your views, it is clear that you have no idea about cascaded effects of liberating an entity. A central gov can not afford and even if they do, they shouldn't.

    After breaking of soviet Russia, look at how the nations are now. After qadaffi, look at the situation in libya.

    This cascading effect causes bloodbath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    From your views, it is clear that you have no idea about cascaded effects of liberating an entity. A central gov can not afford and even if they do, they shouldn't.

    After breaking of soviet Russia, look at how the nations are now. After qadaffi, look at the situation in libya.

    This cascading effect causes bloodbath.
    Yeah because thats why India is forcing Kashmir to stay with it. So that Kashmiris dont end up killing each other. Good point.

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    India media (most of it anyways) is biggest ally of feku, after of course his gullible bhakts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Read my replies to Thunderbolt.

    Also, What do you think will happen if people of Azad Kashmir demand independence? Do you think Pakistan will step aside and allow them to walk out?

    If that is what you think, you are smoking some good stuff.


    Azad Kashmir is not Azad.
    What stupid logic. All depending on an imaginary “if”. What do you think Pakistan will do if people of Karachi or Lahore will ask for independence? Or what will happen if UP or Delhi asks for independence from India? I guess the same that happened when a part of Spain tried for independence recently.... by your logic no one is “Azad” in this world.

    Difference between IoK and Azad Kashmir is very very obvious. Both are legal conflict zones with pending territorial dispute. But IoK has a strong resistance and azadi movement while AJK has none. I am a Kashmiri and I know Kashmiris from both sides of LOC. No amount of word twisting will change the terrible realities on ground..

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Look at it from the perspective of India. Every nation state has to draw the line somewhere as far as separatist movements are concerned.

    A central government that keeps succumbing to independence movements will come across as weak and will set a dangerous precedent.

    What if tomorrow UP demands independence? What if they say that we are the largest state, we have more people than Pakistan and Bangladesh. We can be our own country and live according to our own rules. What will the Indian government do in that scenario?

    Will they keep giving into the demands of the people? Until when?

    No people are truly free. It is just an illusion. You are free only until you respect and acknowledge national boundaries.
    Intellectual hyperbole. Then why even stop at nation states. No being is free from its circumstances of existence. Are you free to choose your gender, race, ethnicity, body etc.... ? Or other million conditions. In SC people died to get a free land and our keyboard warriors deem them not free. Equating such stuff with terrible tyrannical conditions where hundreds of thousands have died, lost loved ones, lost livelihoods, got raped is beyond stupid and shameful.....

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    @wajid

    Absolutely. No one is truly free, it is just an illusion.

    Lahore is free only until it accepts the domination of the federation of Pakistan. If Lahore demands independence, it will no longer be free and the government of Pakistan will resort to using force if that is what it takes to keep Lahore as part of Pakistan.

    If you think everyone has the right to freedom you are simply naive. Nation states have freedom; states, provinces and the people themselves have no freedom. Never have and never will.

    India will only let go of Kashmir if the Indian economy in the centre collapses to the point where it can no longer keep hold of its states or of Pakistani army delivered a crushing defeat to India in Kashmir who ends up surrendering like Pakistan surrendered East Pakistan.

    The former is not going to happen and the latter is also unlikely to happen. Pakistan has waged multiple wars on Kashmir and has received a bloody nose every single time.

    Yes it is understandable that the Kashmir cause is a vital component of our strategic and foreign policy, but the reality is that we cannot do anything to change the status quo. J&K is under Indian control and we need to make peace with it.

    The Pakistani dream of the fall of Israel and the liberation of J&K (or IOK that they like to call it) will remain a dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    @wajid

    Absolutely. No one is truly free, it is just an illusion.

    Lahore is free only until it accepts the domination of the federation of Pakistan. If Lahore demands independence, it will no longer be free and the government of Pakistan will resort to using force if that is what it takes to keep Lahore as part of Pakistan.

    If you think everyone has the right to freedom you are simply naive. Nation states have freedom; states, provinces and the people themselves have no freedom. Never have and never will.

    India will only let go of Kashmir if the Indian economy in the centre collapses to the point where it can no longer keep hold of its states or of Pakistani army delivered a crushing defeat to India in Kashmir who ends up surrendering like Pakistan surrendered East Pakistan.

    The former is not going to happen and the latter is also unlikely to happen. Pakistan has waged multiple wars on Kashmir and has received a bloody nose every single time.


    I see your inner Indian comes out when you write this garbage!!
    Yes it is understandable that the Kashmir cause is a vital component of our strategic and foreign policy, but the reality is that we cannot do anything to change the status quo. J&K is under Indian control and we need to make peace with it.

    The Pakistani dream of the fall of Israel and the liberation of J&K (or IOK that they like to call it) will remain a dream.

    I agree with alot of what you have said here except the last two parts. The dream will remain because neither you nor I can decide that. the fall of Israel is inevitable. And if your a Muslim it is prophesied. But that is a different debate.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    I agree with alot of what you have said here except the last two parts. The dream will remain because neither you nor I can decide that. the fall of Israel is inevitable. And if your a Muslim it is prophesied. But that is a different debate.
    It is not inevitable. Muslims have been hoping to see Israel fall since 1948 and they will be hoping for another 100 years and nothing is going to happen. Wake up and make peace with reality.

    Being a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it, and as a Muslim it is my belief that God only helps those who help themselves. Israel is tyrannical but they are a hardworking nation and they deserve to be successful.

    Muslims are struggling today because of their own shortcomings and weaknesses. They deserve to be where they are today.

    Pakistan waging wars on Kashmir and ending up empty-handed is a reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is not inevitable. Muslims have been hoping to see Israel fall since 1948 and they will be hoping for another 100 years and nothing is going to happen. Wake up and make peace with reality.

    Being a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it, and as a Muslim it is my belief that God only helps those who help themselves. Israel is tyrannical but they are a hardworking nation and they deserve to be successful.

    Muslims are struggling today because of their own shortcomings and weaknesses. They deserve to be where they are today.

    Pakistan waging wars on Kashmir and ending up empty-handed is a reality.
    So what Nazis did to Jews, they deserved it? (These 1940 Jews, by the way, have nothing to do with current Nazi-Zionists).

    Current Israel is thriving on loads of foreign aid, weapons, manipulation and lobbies. It's all well documented.

    Pak liberated half Kashmir. And last time an Indian tried to come there we all know kind of welcome he received. There's video proof of that. India couldn't do jack to recover even 1cm of this territory. Different debate tho.

    I do agree on Muslims' shortcoming part tho, ngl. Just don't coat everything with your toxic hate. It's obvious and waste of yours and readers' time.

    Israel is destined to fall. Hence the Zionist desperate violence against stone throwing pre-teens. They know it in their bones.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    So what Nazis did to Jews, they deserved it? (These 1940 Jews, by the way, have nothing to do with current Nazi-Zionists).

    Current Israel is thriving on loads of foreign aid, weapons, manipulation and lobbies. It's all well documented.

    Pak liberated half Kashmir. And last time an Indian tried to come there we all know kind of welcome he received. There's video proof of that. India couldn't do jack to recover even 1cm of this territory. Different debate tho.

    I do agree on Muslims' shortcoming part tho, ngl. Just don't coat everything with your toxic hate. It's obvious and waste of yours and readers' time.

    Israel is destined to fall. Hence the Zionist desperate violence against stone throwing pre-teens. They know it in their bones.
    The Jews have always been a very successful nation because they are intelligent and hardworking. Even today, Israel spends a ton of money on R&D instead of luxuries like rich Muslim countries.

    The entire Jewish population of Israel is less than the population of Karachi, but they have made more positive contributions to the world in the last 100 years than the entire Muslim ummah.

    Israel is not destined to fall - it is just a dream that is based on wishful thinking and delusions. 100 years from now, Muslims will still be dreaming about the fall of Israel while Israel will continue to prosper.

    Pakistan did not conquer AJK. The AJK region of the Kashmir valley was liberated by the FATA tribals after the Pakistani military did not have the courage to act on the orders of Quaid-e-Azam.

    They only rode on the coat-tails of the FATA tribals who liberated the AJK region. These were the same tribals that the military of Pakistani butchered for the next 60 years under the draconian FCR laws.

    Since the liberation of AJK, Pakistan military have tried multiple times to liberate J&K and they have faced nothing but humiliation every time.

    In 1965, after the Operation Gibraltar backfired and Indian army decided to attack Lahore, the Pakistani army had to run away from Kashmir to save Lahore because it did not have the numbers and resources to fight on two fronts.

    Today, we celebrate September 6 as “defense day” and spend crores of rupees in celebration every year. The “defense day” is nothing but a reminder of the Pakistan army biting more than it could chew and embarking on a misadventure that nearly backfired.

    The events of February 2019 were humiliating for India but it was not even 1% as humiliating as the events of 1971.

    Not only did the Bangladesh liberation war destroyed the idealistic Two Nation Theory, it is also cost Pakistan its eastern half and Pakistan had to surrender to the Indian army with thousands of POWs (Pakistani Abhinandans) heading to India.

    The picture of General Niazi surrendering to the Indian generals will never be forgotten.

    India will always have the bragging rights because Pakistan has not and will not get back at them for the events of 1971.

    As far as what India is doing is J&K, it is not nearly as bad as what Pakistani military did in east Pakistan to suppress the liberation movement.

    Operation Searchlight was the worst genocide in the modern history of subcontinent and it showed the true face of Pakistan and its military.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by wajid View Post
    What stupid logic. All depending on an imaginary “if”. What do you think Pakistan will do if people of Karachi or Lahore will ask for independence? Or what will happen if UP or Delhi asks for independence from India? I guess the same that happened when a part of Spain tried for independence recently.... by your logic no one is “Azad” in this world.

    Difference between IoK and Azad Kashmir is very very obvious. Both are legal conflict zones with pending territorial dispute. But IoK has a strong resistance and azadi movement while AJK has none. I am a Kashmiri and I know Kashmiris from both sides of LOC. No amount of word twisting will change the terrible realities on ground..
    Nah bro what do you know about kashmir. Mamoon sitting in Peshawar knows alot more then you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The Jews have always been a very successful nation because they are intelligent and hardworking. Even today, Israel spends a ton of money on R&D instead of luxuries like rich Muslim countries.

    The entire Jewish population of Israel is less than the population of Karachi, but they have made more positive contributions to the world in the last 100 years than the entire Muslim ummah.

    Israel is not destined to fall - it is just a dream that is based on wishful thinking and delusions. 100 years from now, Muslims will still be dreaming about the fall of Israel while Israel will continue to prosper.

    Pakistan did not conquer AJK. The AJK region of the Kashmir valley was liberated by the FATA tribals after the Pakistani military did not have the courage to act on the orders of Quaid-e-Azam.

    They only rode on the coat-tails of the FATA tribals who liberated the AJK region. These were the same tribals that the military of Pakistani butchered for the next 60 years under the draconian FCR laws.

    Since the liberation of AJK, Pakistan military have tried multiple times to liberate J&K and they have faced nothing but humiliation every time.

    In 1965, after the Operation Gibraltar backfired and Indian army decided to attack Lahore, the Pakistani army had to run away from Kashmir to save Lahore because it did not have the numbers and resources to fight on two fronts.

    Today, we celebrate September 6 as “defense day” and spend crores of rupees in celebration every year. The “defense day” is nothing but a reminder of the Pakistan army biting more than it could chew and embarking on a misadventure that nearly backfired.

    The events of February 2019 were humiliating for India but it was not even 1% as humiliating as the events of 1971.

    Not only did the Bangladesh liberation war destroyed the idealistic Two Nation Theory, it is also cost Pakistan its eastern half and Pakistan had to surrender to the Indian army with thousands of POWs (Pakistani Abhinandans) heading to India.

    The picture of General Niazi surrendering to the Indian generals will never be forgotten.

    India will always have the bragging rights because Pakistan has not and will not get back at them for the events of 1971.

    As far as what India is doing is J&K, it is not nearly as bad as what Pakistani military did in east Pakistan to suppress the liberation movement.

    Operation Searchlight was the worst genocide in the modern history of subcontinent and it showed the true face of Pakistan and its military.
    The first part about "Jew intelligence" is just a racist myth or an old uncle's stereotype at finest. Success is a very relative thing and it depends on so many other factors, like how rich your parents are, where were you born, how stable your home is, where do you study, who teaches you, kind of childhood you get, kind of jobs you get etc etc.

    Pound per pound it is false to say one race is intelligent than other because very rarely peoples live by same standards of rules and circumstances.

    Have you even met a Muslim in your life? Last thing Ummah will ever need is your approval for its contributions, troll

    Lols at Israel conquest dream part. My grandparents are older than Israel. Saladin conquered the grain salt of it with a bunch of goat herders. Meanwhile fighting at like 3 different fronts. They had support of whole Europe and Papacy.
    Future is uncertain so let's wait and see. It will be epic if it happens in your miserable lifetime

    And as I wrote to you a while ago, we lost all wars against India, it is by the goodness of their hearts that Pakistan is standing firmly today

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is not inevitable. Muslims have been hoping to see Israel fall since 1948 and they will be hoping for another 100 years and nothing is going to happen. Wake up and make peace with reality.

    Being a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it, and as a Muslim it is my belief that God only helps those who help themselves. Israel is tyrannical but they are a hardworking nation and they deserve to be successful.

    Muslims are struggling today because of their own shortcomings and weaknesses. They deserve to be where they are today.

    Pakistan waging wars on Kashmir and ending up empty-handed is a reality.
    it is inevitable. The conditions are all there. You just cant see it. Being a Muslim has everything to do with it in this context.

    Muslims are struggling because we live in a post colonial world that is still practically colonised. You do a disservice to recorded history by your rants.

    If you look at Israels geopolitical position it is very very precarious. That is why they are so paranoid and desperate. Everything they do is in the name of security. And they only have to make one mistake. they know this. They say it openly. The Kingdom of Jerusalem lasted for over a hundred years in a time when Muslims had the military power to eliminate it but they didn't. It lasted from 1099 to 1291. Israel has only been around for 70 odd years which is miniscule in historical terms.

    As for your comment on waging wars on kashmir, well again you fail to understand the big picture. In 1948 we didnt have an army, we had a glorified police force and after teh Dorga maasacres and genocied of Muslims a combined force of mujahids from the tribal areas and Pakistani regulars managed to wrestle a large part of te kingdom. Also look up what happened in Gilgit.

    Moving on to Gibraltar, yes that operation failed but the theory was sound and Kashmir at the time was completely disputed and there was no LOC. India had no right or reason to invade Pakistan. The operation had failed and they could have kept it localised in kashmir. Why did they Invade Pakistan? either the op was a failure or it was a success thus requiring India to open up a second front. They had planned the invasion much before it actually occurred as is the case with military ops.

    Finally 1971, it was physically impossible for the PA to carry out the level of genocide that is touted by indians. It just wasnt possible. Also the atrocities by the other side are also ignored. Nobody comes out smelling of roses in 71 in east pakistan. The PA was not in war fighting mode in east Pakistan. When the eventual Indian invasion came it was outnumbered 50-1. They had no chance.

    Finally please put away your BJP school book and do some wider reading instead of using the much refuted sound bites from the bhakhts.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    @wajid

    Absolutely. No one is truly free, it is just an illusion.

    Lahore is free only until it accepts the domination of the federation of Pakistan. If Lahore demands independence, it will no longer be free and the government of Pakistan will resort to using force if that is what it takes to keep Lahore as part of Pakistan.

    If you think everyone has the right to freedom you are simply naive. Nation states have freedom; states, provinces and the people themselves have no freedom. Never have and never will.

    India will only let go of Kashmir if the Indian economy in the centre collapses to the point where it can no longer keep hold of its states or of Pakistani army delivered a crushing defeat to India in Kashmir who ends up surrendering like Pakistan surrendered East Pakistan.

    The former is not going to happen and the latter is also unlikely to happen. Pakistan has waged multiple wars on Kashmir and has received a bloody nose every single time.

    Yes it is understandable that the Kashmir cause is a vital component of our strategic and foreign policy, but the reality is that we cannot do anything to change the status quo. J&K is under Indian control and we need to make peace with it.

    The Pakistani dream of the fall of Israel and the liberation of J&K (or IOK that they like to call it) will remain a dream.
    1. You seriously need to understand freedom and get out of this “if this happened or that happened”. It simply doesn’t work like this otherwise when you claim above that nation states are free, then I can say that even they are not free because they are subject to international law and are mostly constitutional democracies and thus are bound to respective norms/laws/will of people etc...

    2. Absolutely everyone has right to freedom. And this cannot be escaped with counter examples of constraints of existence. Legally, morally and even philosophically you are free if you live without coercion or if you willingly and voluntarily give authority of coercion to someone else( like state).

    3. Agree with you on circumstances of Kashmir. But this world is changing and I think the best possible option for Kashmir as of now is for Indian society to take a reverse trajectory and become more pro human rights, less anti Muslim and less hindu Tuva. For this a secular government is not enough, there needs to be a transformation if Indian society which is possible but highly unlikely in near future.

    4. I am not concerned with goals of Pakistani state and establishment as they have time and again proved themselves to be vicious and heartless towards Kashmiris. I believe the most urgent goal is to stop useless and mindless bloodshed and let a population live under peace and prosperity after generations of war conditions.

    5. Israel is a different beast as we don’t know yet what their actual final goal is. Surely it is evident now with continuous west bank settlements expansion that it is not only survival. If they have parts of Jordan, Egypt , Syria and beyond in their plans then they themselves continue to risk their existence.

    6. Pakistan and others supporting and wishing well for struggles of Kashmiris and Palestinians is completely humane and anything less would be shameful. Tyrannical ground realities should not change our morals and sympathies. That’s the least we can do as a reasonable human being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmirilion View Post
    Nah bro what do you know about kashmir. Mamoon sitting in Peshawar knows alot more then you.
    I really dread China or India becoming great world powers. Forget government, even the kind of stupid rhetoric I see on forums like quora from Indians and their disdain for human rights and basic decency is astonishing. US and Europe with all their colonial baggage at least allows us to make noise and get verbal sympathy at least for human right abuses etc. But most online Indians are ruthless to the point of cheering on and rationalising their brutal violations of human rights.

    Chinese are by default “gom som” and mostly don’t care what government is doing!


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