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  1. #1
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    Why isn't Pakistan better at football?

    Pakistan is a nation that loves football, but why is it not producing good players, qualifying for World Cups or its players playing in the best leagues around the world?

    What's going wrong?



  2. #2
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    Many reasons imo.

    Too much competition in the world, every nation plays football and Europe, South America, Africa and South Asia are so far ahead.

    Cricket is far too popular. I used pressure kids when in Pakistan to play football instead.

    Nobody to look up to as Pak have never qualified for any major tournament.

    Lack of surfaces to play.

    However Pakistan has the youth with the physical attributes to become much better at football. In the meantime I would suggest the Pak football *** to pick players from the UK/Europe/US who play at a good level. Im sure with this approach in the next decade Pak can qualify for the World Cup esp with the number of teams to grow.

    Im available to play but only as a striker.


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  3. #3
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    Genetics. Same goes for India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. too.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Genetics. Same goes for India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. too.
    Not sure what you mean. In my school year our football team had 4/5 British Pakistanis in a school where we were only 3%.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Genetics. Same goes for India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. too.
    Thatís a racist troupe.

    In fact, once nutritional deficiencies are addressed in growing children, youíll see even less of a discrepancy.


    Better luck next time

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    I just think in general pakistanis/Indians are genetically not that athletic compared to Latinos, Africans and even Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    Thatís a racist troupe.

    In fact, once nutritional deficiencies are addressed in growing children, youíll see even less of a discrepancy.
    Some African countries also have diet issues but keep producing world class athletes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Some African countries also have diet issues but keep producing world class athletes.
    Football is the main sport in these countries and they all play it from a young age. In the subcontinent it's Cricket, hence we produce world class cricketers but not footballers

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSA321 View Post
    Football is the main sport in these countries. In the subcontinent it's Cricket, hence we produce world class cricketers but not footballers
    Yes, true. But I think if given the chance we will find it hard/not impossible to produce world star football players. Sure we can be given money , the fields, equipment. But genetics does play some part in it also. Donít you think. Also football is a much more demanding sport physically than cricket. As I said not impossible but hard

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Yes, true. But I think if given the chance we will find it hard/not impossible to produce world star football players. Sure we can be given money , the fields, equipment. But genetics does play some part in it also. Donít you think. Also football is a much more demanding sport physically than cricket. As I said not impossible but hard
    The average South Asian has a similar frame to the average Spaniard, Portuguese and Italian imo, if these guys can dominate I don't see why it will be close to impossible for us

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSA321 View Post
    The average South Asian has a similar frame to the average Spaniard, Portuguese and Italian imo, if these guys can dominate I don't see why it will be close to impossible for us
    Well there is only one way to prove it

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    its the interest level. Nothing else. Indian Super League In India will change some things down the line hopefully.

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    Of course the fact that cricket is the main sport in South Asia rather than football plays a part in it but it is mainly the genetics factor. Far more kids of South Asian origin grow up playing football rather than cricket in the UK or basketball rather than cricket in the US for that matter but hardly any of them make it as pros in football or basketball.

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    I think American football or nba is a different animal. We indian /pals just donít get that big. Soccer on the other hand is different. We have the body frame for it. However most of European teams even have African players. Portugal and spain and mediocre . It was a powerhouse once. Like most sports ,, itís dominated by Africans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Genetics. Same goes for India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. too.
    Not sure why you had to bring other countries, but in India's case,
    Eastern part of India and in the West Goa, these two states have huge football crazy population and
    most of the good players who play International Football come from there.
    So its about interest, then infrastructure on top of that.
    Hockey was hugely popular and now it is in decline. Do you think that is due to genetics as well?
    Hockey involves more or less same amount of fitness as footballers in terms of running.

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    Uae,saudŪ have spend millions on Soccer. Nothing to show.

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    But the whole world is not competing in hockey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    I think American football or nba is a different animal. We indian /pals just don’t get that big. Soccer on the other hand is different. We have the body frame for it. However most of European teams even have African players. Portugal and spain and mediocre . It was a powerhouse once. Like most sports ,, it’s dominated by Africans
    Spain did not had a single African player and they won Two Euro Cups and 1 World Cup between 2008 and 2012.

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    You can spend a billion dollars , but no european, Latino, asian or desi is beating a black man in 100m dash. Genetics matter. They matter more in soccer than cricket .

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    Not sure why you had to bring other countries, but in India's case,
    Eastern part of India and in the West Goa, these two states have huge football crazy population and
    most of the good players who play International Football come from there.
    So its about interest, then infrastructure on top of that.
    Hockey was hugely popular and now it is in decline. Do you think that is due to genetics as well?
    Hockey involves more or less same amount of fitness as footballers in terms of running.
    Good players in an Indian context lol. No half-decent player on the world stage has emerged from Goa / East India or anywhere in South Asia despite huge interest for football in certain regions as you point out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    Spain did not had a single African player and they won Two Euro Cups and 1 World Cup between 2008 and 2012.
    Good point regarding Spain. As I said not impossible. Just harder to achieve.

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    South Asia is crap at sports generally, so in a global sport like football we have no chance. We dont have the physicality or technical/ tactical know-how to compete.

    Better fed and well conditioned European trained players are the way to go for any South Asian team to prosper. Local players just wont cut it. Only thing we can do is put 10 men behind the ball and hope to knick something against the better Asian teams.

    And hockey is hardly a contact sport to compare football to. Any sort of contact gets called a foul. Only thing is hockey is a lot faster, but then you have rolling subs to maintain the intensity.

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    Just forget about playing in the World Cups. There are only four spots for Asian quota in the FIFA World Cup and they often get filled by Iran, South Korea, Australia and Japan alone.... Qualifying for the WC means beating one of these teams which is equivalent of Ireland beating Australia at a Test match in Australia , which will take many many decades.

    Pakistan doesn't even qualify for Asian Cup ( Football ) and fans expect them to directly qualify for the WC . Doing well in Asian Cup should be the first step.

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    It's because when we get a corner, we always use the opportunity to build a corner shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Uae,saudŪ have spend millions on Soccer. Nothing to show.
    That's because they don't actually have that many locals who hold a national passport, much like other UAE cities. We are seeing more and more individual players like Sala and Mahrez from that region having a massive influence in European football year on year.

    I think football is still a secondary sport in Pakistan, if it gets hold above cricket I would expect Pakistan to be providing some fantastic footballers in future.


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    It’s a very hard sport to be good at even if you have the best infrastructure available. In England, we still cannot produce a squad of players who can compete and dominate the sport for 10 years the way the German, Spanish and Italians can, even though our sporting infrastructure and academies are equally as good.

    We are likely to get beaten by Finland, Croatia, Ukraine, Poland, Sweden, Russia, Uruguay, Chile, Columbia and many other nations with much poorer leagues than our English Premier league simply because no matter how flashy our boys will look, and no matter how quickly they will be the wealthiest, they cannot be taught how to be mentally the strongest.

    Can’t blame Pakistan, even if they do get that infrastructure required, they will still need a thousand years to be at the level of a country like Denmark in football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Not sure what you mean. In my school year our football team had 4/5 British Pakistanis in a school where we were only 3%.
    How come they donít have representation even in academies let alone senior level? And those that do are usually non league and such?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Pakistan is a nation that loves football, but why is it not producing good players, qualifying for World Cups or its players playing in the best leagues around the world?

    What's going wrong?
    I think your first sentence is wrong. There is nothing to indicate that Pakistan is a nation that Ďlovesí football. I donít even know where youíre getting that idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    That's because they don't actually have that many locals who hold a national passport, much like other UAE cities. We are seeing more and more individual players like Sala and Mahrez from that region having a massive influence in European football year on year.

    I think football is still a secondary sport in Pakistan, if it gets hold above cricket I would expect Pakistan to be providing some fantastic footballers in future.
    Good points uncle Rishwat.

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    Malnutrition plays a major role in growing kids who do not receive adequate protein in their diet.
    A poorly nourished kid will be at a major disadvantage compared to their western counterparts.
    As someone mentioned, genetics do play a part. How much of it is debatable.
    Even in cricket which does not need supreme fitnesses to succeed, we can see the size of White and Black players as compared to subcontinent players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    Not sure why you had to bring other countries, but in India's case,
    Eastern part of India and in the West Goa, these two states have huge football crazy population and
    most of the good players who play International Football come from there.
    So its about interest, then infrastructure on top of that.
    Hockey was hugely popular and now it is in decline. Do you think that is due to genetics as well?
    Hockey involves more or less same amount of fitness as footballers in terms of running.
    I think that reinforces his point. Football is very popular in Bengal and eastern parts of India. I was blown away by the craze and fanaticism where cricket was a distant second. For many life revolves around soccer. But even despite all that they have struggled to produce any mediocre international footballers. And poor African countries with little infrastructure and significant portion of the population below the poverty line have managed to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Uae,saudŪ have spend millions on Soccer. Nothing to show.
    I wouldnít say nothing but your point stands. Soccer is by and far the number 1 sport and has significant investment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker_Ind View Post
    Malnutrition plays a major role in growing kids who do not receive adequate protein in their diet.
    A poorly nourished kid will be at a major disadvantage compared to their western counterparts.
    As someone mentioned, genetics do play a part. How much of it is debatable.
    Even in cricket which does not need supreme fitnesses to succeed, we can see the size of White and Black players as compared to subcontinent players.
    But those issues are faced even more by African countries and they keep producing stars. The stories of guys like Mane are genuinely inspirational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    But those issues are faced even more by African countries and they keep producing stars. The stories of guys like Mane are genuinely inspirational.
    Africans have advantage for being black. Most are natural athletes. Just my observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I think that reinforces his point. Football is very popular in Bengal and eastern parts of India. I was blown away by the craze and fanaticism where cricket was a distant second. For many life revolves around soccer. But even despite all that they have struggled to produce any mediocre international footballers. And poor African countries with little infrastructure and significant portion of the population below the poverty line have managed to do that.
    Actually Bengal produced tons of International class footballers till early 80s. Things went downhill after that not just in football but every things else starting from art to culture to movies to education for socio political reasons.

    But you are right football is just as popular as circket in Bengal, Northeast and Goa if not more. If one comes to Calcutta during a World Cup, they may be prompted to believe that India is playing by the widespread craze in display.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I think that reinforces his point. Football is very popular in Bengal and eastern parts of India. I was blown away by the craze and fanaticism where cricket was a distant second. For many life revolves around soccer. But even despite all that they have struggled to produce any mediocre international footballers. And poor African countries with little infrastructure and significant portion of the population below the poverty line have managed to do that.
    The talented ones get picked by academies in Europe and and trained by the best there.
    Even smaller regional city clubs pick up these players as they become investments for them when that players get sold to a bigger club.
    In India's case, ISL is happening now which is pumping some money into football. Not that it will change things immediately, but it is about interest and then investment and training. So Money at the end.
    The biggest rivalry, ATK and Mohun Bagan are also getting added to ISL, and the fans are fanatics for these two clubs.
    @cricketjoshila bhai which club do you support.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Uae,saudŪ have spend millions on Soccer. Nothing to show.
    They have qualified for World Cup finals and have decent teams at a national level and fairly competitive domestic leagues.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I think your first sentence is wrong. There is nothing to indicate that Pakistan is a nation that ‘loves’ football. I don’t even know where you’re getting that idea.
    Well I've seen Pakistan-based fan clubs of many of the big club sides in Europe.

    Also whenever I have spoken with Pakistan-based people who I know, they always tell me how interested they are in football.



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    I think those who are using the athleticism excuse are the ones who do not follow football closely.

    Football in general requires greater athleticism than cricket but not every footballer playing at the top level is a super athlete.

    If a refrigerator can Maguire can play in the Premier League then a lot of Pakistanis and Indians can as well.

    Lacazette is the first-choice number 9 at Arsenal and these days, he is tired after 20 mins and cannot run for 10 years without tripping himself over.

    The main issue in Pakistan is the lack of technical ability and awareness and that is a result of poor coaching which is a result of lack of investment.

    Even with proper investment it takes a long time. India have made big strides in football investment in the previous decade but they are still a long way away from qualifying for the World Cup.

    Pakistan will remain a poor football nation because we are a poor country that does not have enough money to investment in a sport that will never surpass cricket in terms of popularity.

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    Lol at folks saying genetics are to blame and that no body can compete with black folks. When was the last time an African country won the FIFA WC? News flash it's a grand total of ZERO.

    Heck off the last five world cups four have been won by Europeans with Brazil being the only non-European all the way back in 2002 even then the other finalist was Germany.


    Football is a highly technical and tactical sport. If you could just win on the basis of running fast then nobody would have beaten the Africans.



    As to why does Pakistan not do well? It's all down to a lack of interest in the wider population. You have pockets like Lyari in Karachi that produce amazing players but in the grander scheme of things football isn't very popular sport to play amongst Pakistanis. They do watch it with interest though. Another factor is thoroughly incompetent PFF that has done absolutely nothing to build up the sport and infrastructure in the country and to provide international level coaching at the youth level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Lol at folks saying genetics are to blame and that no body can compete with black folks. When was the last time an African country won the FIFA WC? News flash it's a grand total of ZERO.

    Heck off the last five world cups four have been won by Europeans with Brazil being the only non-European all the way back in 2002 even then the other finalist was Germany.


    Football is a highly technical and tactical sport. If you could just win on the basis of running fast then nobody would have beaten the Africans.



    As to why does Pakistan not do well? It's all down to a lack of interest in the wider population. You have pockets like Lyari in Karachi that produce amazing players but in the grander scheme of things football isn't very popular sport to play amongst Pakistanis. They do watch it with interest though. Another factor is thoroughly incompetent PFF that has done absolutely nothing to build up the sport and infrastructure in the country and to provide international level coaching at the youth level.
    Not being racist at all. The premier league, lower leagues and academies are dominated by black and mixed race footballers. The English national side is a joke when it comes against a genuine world title contender like Germany, Italy or Spain.

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    Do you want to know how I know that genetics is the biggest factor as to why South Asians are not good at football?

    Here are some stats for you. There have been only four players of South Asian origin to have played in the Premier League, the top tier of English football, despite South Asians making almost 7% of the UK population. These four players are:

    Zesh Rehman
    Michael Chopra
    Neil Taylor
    Hamza Choudhury

    3 out of the 4 (75%) players I just mentioned are mixed-race. Now tell what is the proportion of mixed race British Asians as a % of the whole British Asian population?,1%, 2%, maybe 3% at max? But why have there been 3 times as many mixed British Asians who have made it to the top level as opposed to players of full South Asian origin? It's not the politically correct answer but it is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Not sure what you mean. In my school year our football team had 4/5 British Pakistanis in a school where we were only 3%.
    British Pakistanis are slightly different as most come from Punjab or Kashmir where the build is generally bigger. I'm getting the feeling that some of those who are thinking it's a genetic thing are coming from different areas. Lurker_Indian for example is south Indian and in his former guise said he had chicken legs, maybe that would influence his opinions.

    Personally I don't think having a smaller physique is that much of a dealbreaker, China and Korea have put out competitive sides in recent times even if they aren't going to win the world cup.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Do you want to know how I know that genetics is the biggest factor as to why South Asians are not good at football?

    Here are some stats for you. There have been only four players of South Asian origin to have played in the Premier League, the top tier of English football, despite South Asians making almost 7% of the UK population. These four players are:

    Zesh Rehman
    Michael Chopra
    Neil Taylor
    Hamza Choudhury

    3 out of the 4 (75%) players I just mentioned are mixed-race. Now tell what is the proportion of mixed race British Asians as a % of the whole British Asian population?,1%, 2%, maybe 3% at max? But why have there been 3 times as many mixed British Asians who have made it to the top level as opposed to players of full South Asian origin? It's not the politically correct answer but it is what it is.
    I would put that down desis traditionally shunning sports as a career more than genetics. I don't know about these days, but I played football for my school team but if I said I wanted to take it up professionally I would have got laughed out of the house. You either studied or went into business.

    I remember reading a report by an Asian football coach who said another problem was that Asian kids often had families who owned small businesses and they were expected to spend spare time there rather than wasting time kicking a ball around.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Perhaps a reason why desi kids abroad don't participate in sports specially football is that they are often children of first gen immigrants.


    Imagine if I'm a guy who moved to the UK after successfully escaping from some South Asian third world hellhole with barely any cash in my pocket and hardly enough to make ends meet. I do odd jobs work double shifts save as much as I can. I work my way up through blood, sweat and toil. Then I get married to some girl from my native country and decide to start a family. I have a son who I desire has all the comforts in the world and doesn't have to go through the rigors that I did. The son gets to teenage and says 'baba I want to pursue football where I'll most likely have to give up any further studies and I only have a one in a million chance of even making it past village leagues and if I fail I can work as a coach in the local school making slightly above minimum wage'. At that point the only suitable reaction is a tight crisp slap across the face.

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    Faisal Saleh Hayat. PPP.

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    pakistan has a "talent complex", as a whole many pakistanis are ignorant to how professionalised global sport is, and believe some random person on talent alone can become a world beater.

    pakistan's cricket team has slowly slipped in terms of competitiveness over the last twenty years as cricket has become professionalised too.

    to hope to compete at a sport like football, when you have neither the professionalism or the natural talent (self taught ability due to popularity of a sport) u might as well assume ull be waiting forever.

    if pak wanna be good tho, no further than iceland to look at, arguably one of the most professional national setups, managed to get to continental competitiveness with a population smaller than most pakistani towns, but pak cant afford that kinda investment.

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    Football is very popular in Asia but it's mostly viewing population. They don't learn the trade. There are not many facilities either. The sport has evolved technically so much that the disparity between existing teams and new teams is way too high. Kids are being taught tactics along with skill from a very young age.

    The Chinese have hired coaches from abroad and even have soccer schools with tens of thousands of kids learning the sport like drones. I think they will be the break out country from Asia. Japan and Sk don't have to compete with other sports. Iran was incredible in the last world cup and they are doing ok because of the same reason. They don't have any other major sport competing for kids.

    India, Pak, BD have enough population to find talents despite cricket being the most popular sport. I think if somehow one player is good enough to play at the top level, in european leagues, it would be a snowball effect and can inspire a lot of kids. Funding will always follow wherever the passion is. Just need one 'Messi'ah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    pakistan has a "talent complex", as a whole many pakistanis are ignorant to how professionalised global sport is, and believe some random person on talent alone can become a world beater.

    pakistan's cricket team has slowly slipped in terms of competitiveness over the last twenty years as cricket has become professionalised too.

    to hope to compete at a sport like football, when you have neither the professionalism or the natural talent (self taught ability due to popularity of a sport) u might as well assume ull be waiting forever.

    if pak wanna be good tho, no further than iceland to look at, arguably one of the most professional national setups, managed to get to continental competitiveness with a population smaller than most pakistani towns, but pak cant afford that kinda investment.
    Was actually going to mention that as well, Pakistan has one of the most unprofessional cricket set ups of all nations, and this where the game has always been insanely popular. The idea of a fitness regime horrifies most Pakistan cricketers, the sort of high intensity training for football is another level.


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    The grassroots program in US for soccer is just incredible. Lots of facilities and many interested kids despite soccer not being in the top 4 sports in the country. You can see the results based on the success of the women's team. I'm sure US will be a big player one day but tells you what it takes to be successful and how long it takes.

    Pak, India and others in the region need inspiration, funding and time.

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    There is ZERO infrastructure for sports in Pakistan as there is pretty much near to none practice pitches or training facilities in the entire country, pick up any sports and that has been in a steady decline over the last 30 years.

    It is a big shame that once Pakistan used to boast about having the best players in squash with the 2 Khans, and also being the best in hockey (our national sport for some reason and not cricket), it is a sad picture in every sport to say the least.

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    I am guessing folks are more interested in cricket than other sports. So, soccer doesn't get the required attention. That is probably the primary reason.



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    People here talk about Maguire and Lacazette as guys with avg physique...let me tell you they will burn our guys for pace and strength. A near 40 year old Lucio(ex inter, bayern) was dominating in ISL in his brief stay after semi retirement from Brazilian leagues...35 year old spanish reject Corominas is the all time top scorer outpacing defenders 10 years younger...just pick up any match from last SAFF Cup, you'll see the games are played at snail's pace here.
    We are no match physically for junior age teams from Central Asia, let aside the Arabs or West Asians giants like Iran. They can atleast go toe to toe with the Europeans/Africans. Technique and tactics is awful...most will try to kick the ball away to striker when trying to build up.

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    just as a side note, everyone under rating pakistani athletic ability, waqar, shoaib, imran, younis khan, the khan bros in squash, etc were no slouches, obviously batting training is not geared towards explosive athleticism.

    i dont see why pak couldnt compete, japan would be a good compartive, they dont have a history of explosive strength or pace based athletic achievements, but have a very competitive football team.

    the issue is money, and thats the only issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    just as a side note, everyone under rating pakistani athletic ability, waqar, shoaib, imran, younis khan, the khan bros in squash, etc were no slouches, obviously batting training is not geared towards explosive athleticism.

    i dont see why pak couldnt compete, japan would be a good compartive, they dont have a history of explosive strength or pace based athletic achievements, but have a very competitive football team.

    the issue is money, and thats the only issue.
    If you look at the replies talking about athletic ability it is mostly coming from non-Pakistanis. Maybe they have a different perception based on what they see in their own societies. OldWarhorse is talking about Indian soccer league, and to be fair I have no idea about build or mentality of people in India. I can imagine they don't like the more physical contact type sports.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OldWarHorse View Post
    People here talk about Maguire and Lacazette as guys with avg physique...let me tell you they will burn our guys for pace and strength. A near 40 year old Lucio(ex inter, bayern) was dominating in ISL in his brief stay after semi retirement from Brazilian leagues...35 year old spanish reject Corominas is the all time top scorer outpacing defenders 10 years younger...just pick up any match from last SAFF Cup, you'll see the games are played at snail's pace here.
    We are no match physically for junior age teams from Central Asia, let aside the Arabs or West Asians giants like Iran. They can atleast go toe to toe with the Europeans/Africans. Technique and tactics is awful...most will try to kick the ball away to striker when trying to build up.
    Jahangir Khan was a machine in his prime and fitter than most footballers.

    When Pakistan dominated hockey in the 80s, our players would outrun German and Dutch counterparts.

    Lacazette is a better ST than anyone Pakistan and India have ever produced but I bet there are some players in these countries that have better athletic ability.

    The difference is the technical ability and footballing IQ.

    Sunil Chhetri couldnít hack it in the Portuguese second division not because he cannot run but because he was not good enough in terms of skill.

    Slower players than Chhetri have had successful careers in football at the top level.

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    I watched a couple of SAFF matches in 2018 I think. I agree it was unwatchable and the game was very slow-paced, but it was down to poor skill and technique than the lack of athletic ability.

    The players had poor touches, they didnít have much shot power, they didnít have the skill to make one touch passes, players took a long time to pass the ball around because of lack of vision.

    All of this contributed to the slow and sluggish tempo of the game.

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    So I just checked the FIFA rankings.

    Japan: 26

    India: 108
    Pakistan: 200

    Are Pakistanis and Indians less athletic and physically gifted than the Japanese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    So I just checked the FIFA rankings.

    Japan: 26

    India: 108
    Pakistan: 200

    Are Pakistanis and Indians less athletic and physically gifted than the Japanese?
    Yes. Instead of going by appearance or your pre-conceived perception of 'athleticism' or 'physically gifted', just check the record of all three countries in the Olympics.

    When I say genetics I see people are mistaking it as physical build or height which is not what I mean at all. Afghans and, to a lesser extent, even Pakistanis are pretty gifted in that area but have nothing of note to show for it in the sporting world other that cricket.

    By genetics I mean an inborn ability for intense sports / sports which require a lot of athleticism. I am not talking about physicality or height. If that was the case 5'7 Lionel Messi would not be the greatest player football has ever seen or Bangladesh would not have a 8 - 5 head to head record against Pakistan in football.
    Last edited by Dios; 22nd November 2020 at 02:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    If you look at the replies talking about athletic ability it is mostly coming from non-Pakistanis. Maybe they have a different perception based on what they see in their own societies. OldWarhorse is talking about Indian soccer league, and to be fair I have no idea about build or mentality of people in India. I can imagine they don't like the more physical contact type sports.
    indian punjabi kabadi players are very athletic, no reason these body types(and pakistani too) kabadi players couldnt be reprogrammed for a sport like rugby if coached and competing at a young age. kabadi is pretty much rugby without a ball, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    By genetics I mean an inborn ability for intense sports / sports which require a lot of athleticism. I am not talking about physicality or height.
    you need to be more exact, genetic physical athletic ability is height, propensity to add muscle, and muscle fibre type, i.e. fast twitch, slow twitch, and for extreme endurance sports like marathon running lung capacity and circulatory efficiency, which of these factors are you stating pakistani's are significantly diminished in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    indian punjabi kabadi players are very athletic, no reason these body types(and pakistani too) kabadi players couldnt be reprogrammed for a sport like rugby if coached and competing at a young age. kabadi is pretty much rugby without a ball, lol.



    you need to be more exact, genetic physical athletic ability is height, propensity to add muscle, and muscle fibre type, i.e. fast twitch, slow twitch, and for extreme endurance sports like marathon running lung capacity and circulatory efficiency, which of these factors are you stating pakistani's are significantly diminished in?
    Refer to my post above:
    By genetics I mean an inborn ability for intense sports / sports which require a lot of athleticism.
    I am not a sports scientist but whichever physical attributes combine to make a good footballer, Pakistanis, and other South Asians, are lacking in due to genetics and that's why there is zero achievement by this group in world football. This is all amplified by other secondary factors.

    We don't have a problem admitting that genetics might benefit certain groups when it comes to certain sports but no one wants to admit that genes can also be a disadvantage to certain groups when basically admitting one is also admitting the other by default. Interesting article below.

    Why Kenyans Make Such Great Runners: A Story of Genes and Cultures

    It turns out that Kenyans' success may be innate. Two separate, European-led studies in a small region in western Kenya, which produces most of the race-winners, found that young men there could, with only a few months training, reliably outperform some of the West's best professional runners. In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic. The studies found significant differences in body mass index and bone structure between the Western pros and the Kenyan amateurs who had bested them. The studied Kenyans had less mass for their height, longer legs, shorter torsos, and more slender limbs. One of the researchers described the Kenyan physical differences as "bird-like," noting that these traits would make them more efficient runners, especially over long distances.

    Surprisingly, Western popular writing about Kenyans' running success seems to focus less on these genetic distinctions and more on cultural differences. For years, the cultural argument has been that Kenyans become great runners because they often run several miles to and from school every day. But, about a decade ago, someone started asking actual Kenyans if this was true, and it turned out to be a merely a product of Western imaginations: 14 of 20 surveyed Kenyan race-winners said they'd walked or ridden the bus to school, like normal children do. Another cultural argument says they run barefoot, which develops good habits, but if this were true then surely the far more populated countries of South Asia, where living without shoes is also common, would dominate over Kenyans. Another ascribes it to the "simple food" of Kenya, but this again is true of many parts of the world, and Kenya's not-so-great health record suggests the country has not discovered the secret to great nutrition. And there is a cringe-inducing theory, still prevalent, that Kenyans' history as herders means they get practice running as they chase their sheep across the countryside.
    Last edited by Dios; 22nd November 2020 at 03:17.

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    Btw, still haven't got a noteworthy answer to the question I posted above. Why have there been three times as many mixed-race British Asians who have made it to the top of professional football in the UK as there have been fully Asian British Asians, when mixed-race British Asians are a tiny percentage of British Asians as a whole?

    Btw, I think we will have a British Asian football superstar in the future but I can almost guarantee that he will be mixed-race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Btw, still haven't got a noteworthy answer to the question I posted above. Why have there been three times as many mixed-race British Asians who have made it to the top of professional football in the UK as there have been fully Asian British Asians, when mixed-race British Asians are a tiny percentage of British Asians as a whole?

    Btw, I think we will have a British Asian football superstar in the future but I can almost guarantee that he will be mixed-race.
    It's not that difficult to answer, mixed race kids are usually brought up with a fully British attitude where going for a career in football wouldn't be hampered. Michael Chopra's dad for instance was a Geordie Punjabi lad who strutted around the west end of Newcastle in rider boots, and he married an English girl. All-Asian couples still tend to carry around the homeland suspicion of careers outside of science, law or business.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Refer to my post above:


    I am not a sports scientist but whichever physical attributes combine to make a good footballer, Pakistanis, and other South Asians, are lacking in due to genetics and that's why there is zero achievement by this group in world football. This is all amplified by other secondary factors.

    We don't have a problem admitting that genetics might benefit certain groups when it comes to certain sports but no one wants to admit that genes can also be a disadvantage to certain groups when basically admitting one is also admitting the other by default. Interesting article below.
    But no one is trying to argue that Pakistanis would make great runners or for example, heavyweight boxers. We are talking about football here so it's going off track to start talking about Kenyan runners.

    Oh and you aren't a Pakistani, so you should probably talk about your own specific sub group of Asians as you know fine well they differ in physical attributes.


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    It's cause of a lack of investment from both the private and public sector. People who say it's cause of genetics, don't know a single thing about genetics or the immense diversity of South Asia. Growing up in America, I've seen plenty of Pakistanis and Indians, including South Indians who have started for the varsity basketball and football teams (not soccer), they do not get the the sports scholarships that black and white kids and most of them aren't pursuing sports as a career. It's got nothing to do with stereotypes about "physical attributes.

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    A lack of investment has to be a reason.

    No proper infrastructure, leagues, tournaments, coaching system.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It's not that difficult to answer, mixed race kids are usually brought up with a fully British attitude where going for a career in football wouldn't be hampered. Michael Chopra's dad for instance was a Geordie Punjabi lad who strutted around the west end of Newcastle in rider boots, and he married an English girl. All-Asian couples still tend to carry around the homeland suspicion of careers outside of science, law or business.
    How do you explain Hamza Choudhury who was raised by his British Bengali mum and stepfather in a typical British Bengali upbringing? He probably grew up playing football as a child with his full-Bengali half-siblings and cousins and they all probably received the same level of family encouragement. Why did he make it and not them? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that his biological father is from Grenada.

    You talk about the role of family encouragement and traditional careers but that doesn't seem to stop British Asians from producing a steady stream of professional cricketers and a decent number of actors, artists, stand-up comedians and representation in other non traditional fields.

    The fact of the matter is that in a country like the UK, people tend to follow their passion and true calling and not what their parents want. Maybe you are from a different generation and that's how things were back in your time. I hate to break it to you but most British Pakistanis are not in science or law. And btw the kid that succeeds in Science or Medicine was never going to be the kid who was going to be a professional footballer if it weren't for parental encouragement lol.

    In the UK if you have the talent you will eventually end up in the system somehow. You will get referred by your school etc. A lot of British Asians do make it into the system but don't succeed and again it goes back to genetics.
    Last edited by Dios; 22nd November 2020 at 04:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadeemp View Post
    Uae,saudŪ have spend millions on Soccer. Nothing to show.
    Where are you getting that from? You seriously sound like a casual fan. Saudi Arabia has made several world cup appearances, no south asian country has been able to qualify yet. Saudi Arabia have also been one of the most dominant teams in Asia, they've been the number 1 team in Asia at different periods, and have won 3 Asian Cup titles, only Japan has the same number of titles. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but there's something called FIFA rankings and that's most empirical metric to measure how well a country's national football team is performing. UAE is currently ranked 74th in the world and Saudi Arabia 67th, no South Asian country is even in the top 100. Moreover Saudi Arabia has one of the best football leagues in Asia, Al-Ahly and Al-Ittihad are some of the most renowned football clubs in Asia, anyone that keeps up with world football has heard of both of these clubs and their dominance in the AFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    A lack of investment has to be a reason.

    No proper infrastructure, leagues, tournaments, coaching system.
    Just look at Pakistan cricket if you want to see proof of that. Pakistan domestic cricket has long been considered a joke, most players grew up playing tape ball. Wasn't Waqar Younis discovered playing cricket in the UAE? Mohammad Irfan was a pipe fitter earning $3 a week at the age of 28 before being discovered by Nadeem Iqbal in a club match.


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    This is Mo Salah, one of the greatest footballers in the world today. He's a short guy and doesn't look athletic at all apart from his dash board abs which even middle aged Bollywood actors have achieved, but inspite of him being smaller then most European and African players what he has is talent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    Where are you getting that from? You seriously sound like a casual fan. Saudi Arabia has made several world cup appearances, no south asian country has been able to qualify yet. Saudi Arabia have also been one of the most dominant teams in Asia, they've been the number 1 team in Asia at different periods, and have won 3 Asian Cup titles, only Japan has the same number of titles. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but there's something called FIFA rankings and that's most empirical metric to measure how well a country's national football team is performing. UAE is currently ranked 74th in the world and Saudi Arabia 67th, no South Asian country is even in the top 100. Moreover Saudi Arabia has one of the best football leagues in Asia, Al-Ahly and Al-Ittihad are some of the most renowned football clubs in Asia, anyone that keeps up with world football has heard of both of these clubs and their dominance in the AFC.
    Maybe you misunderstood or I typed wrong. Saudis better than Asians. Yes. Shaudis better than euro or Latin America ( if you take in consideration who much money they have thrown at it). No. Also if i a remember correctly decent amount of players in saudi come from Sudan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    But no one is trying to argue that Pakistanis would make great runners or for example, heavyweight boxers. We are talking about football here so it's going off track to start talking about Kenyan runners.

    Oh and you aren't a Pakistani, so you should probably talk about your own specific sub group of Asians as you know fine well they differ in physical attributes.
    I brought up running because there have been actual studies to understand the role genes play in that sport. If genes have been proven to play a role in one sport then they will play a role in other sports too and explain why certain groups perform the way they do in that sport. It's not that hard to understand.

    If there were ever any accredited scientific studies trying to explain the lack of South Asians in football, I am sure the genetic factor would be highlighted but given the current atmosphere of political correctness I understand why there is not much appetite for such a study.

    I am grouping all South Asians together because despite having different physical attributes, the group as a whole has achieved nothing in the sport. And as you say, not being Pakistani myself, if I speak only about Pakistanis it would come off as hate and I wanted to avoid that.

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    I will agree this thread has changed my mind. Great thread. I was discounting the Asians too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    How do you explain Hamza Choudhury who was raised by his British Bengali mum and stepfather in a typical British Bengali upbringing? He probably grew up playing football as a child with his full-Bengali half-siblings and cousins and they all probably received the same level of family encouragement. Why did he make it and not them? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that his biological father is from Grenada.

    You talk about the role of family encouragement and traditional careers but that doesn't seem to stop British Asians from producing a steady stream of professional cricketers and a decent number of actors, artists, stand-up comedians and representation in other non traditional fields.

    The fact of the matter is that in a country like the UK, people tend to follow their passion and true calling and not what their parents want. Maybe you are from a different generation and that's how things were back in your time. I hate to break it to you but most British Pakistanis are not in science or law. And btw the kid that succeeds in Science or Medicine was never going to be the kid who was going to be a professional footballer if it weren't for parental encouragement lol.

    In the UK if you have the talent you will eventually end up in the system somehow. You will get referred by your school etc. A lot of British Asians do make it into the system but don't succeed and again it goes back to genetics.
    Why do I need to explain Hamza Choudhury? You are talking about one player. Did it occur to you that Pakistanis might have their own mixed genes which are different to yours?

    I would also argue that the steady stream of British Asians in professions in cricket, acting and writing are severely handicapped by cultural restrictions otherwise you would see a much bigger and better pool.

    Again, you need to stop talking on behalf of British Pakistanis, you aren't one. If you want to talk about British Bengalis/Bangladeshis then I will take your views seriously.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    I brought up running because there have been actual studies to understand the role genes play in that sport. If genes have been proven to play a role in one sport then they will play a role in other sports too and explain why certain groups perform the way they do in that sport. It's not that hard to understand.

    If there were ever any accredited scientific studies trying to explain the lack of South Asians in football, I am sure the genetic factor would be highlighted but given the current atmosphere of political correctness I understand why there is not much appetite for such a study.

    I am grouping all South Asians together because despite having different physical attributes, the group as a whole has achieved nothing in the sport. And as you say, not being Pakistani myself, if I speak only about Pakistanis it would come off as hate and I wanted to avoid that.
    So you brought up running in Kenya in a discussion about football in Pakistan for genetic reasons? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure even Africa as a continent has very different physical differences depending on where you land. But actually football isn't just about physical attributes, the world's best players of the last half century were not exclusively 6ft+, actually the best have been Maradona and Messi in my lifetime. Both midgets compared with Hamza Yousuf.


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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Why do I need to explain Hamza Choudhury? You are talking about one player. Did it occur to you that Pakistanis might have their own mixed genes which are different to yours?

    I would also argue that the steady stream of British Asians in professions in cricket, acting and writing are severely handicapped by cultural restrictions otherwise you would see a much bigger and better pool.

    Again, you need to stop talking on behalf of British Pakistanis, you aren't one. If you want to talk about British Bengalis/Bangladeshis then I will take your views seriously.
    I'm not sure where I spoke on behalf of British Pakistanis. I don't need to be British Pakistani to point out factual statements like most British Pakistanis are not in Science or Law despite their parents' wishes. And I will always put more weight on stats than random anecdotes.
    Last edited by Dios; 22nd November 2020 at 04:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So you brought up running in Kenya in a discussion about football in Pakistan for genetic reasons? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure even Africa as a continent has very different physical differences depending on where you land. But actually football isn't just about physical attributes, the world's best players of the last half century were not exclusively 6ft+, actually the best have been Maradona and Messi in my lifetime. Both midgets compared with Hamza Yousuf.
    Again the point of posting that article was simply to show that genes play a role in explaining why certain groups perform the way they do in certain sports.

    Again I don't know if you properly read my earlier posts. Footballing genes does not mean size or height.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    So now you wanna be politcally correct, fact is the Bangladeshi team has underachieved in cricket, field hockey and most other sports in contrast to Pakistan and India. I'm not blaming genetics or engaging pushing racist tropes like you are but you should be the last one to defend scientific racism and stereotyping as your people were victims of this in recent history.

    Btw all those cricketers you mentioned are still tiny compared to most Pakistani and even indian cricketers. The Sri Lankan players are also bigger than Bangladeshis on average, someone theorized that the reason is that Sri Lankans like Pakistanis and Indians have more South Asian DNA while Bangladeshis have more Burmese/Southeast Asian DNA.
    Lol so you are saying Taskin Ahmed is tiny compared to most Pakistani and Indian cricketers?



    On average, you are right Bangladesh probably has the smallest players of all four Asian countries. But the players I named are bigger than the average Pakistani, Indian or Sri Lankan player.
    Last edited by Dios; 22nd November 2020 at 05:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dios View Post
    Again the point of posting that article was simply to show that genes play a role in explaining why certain groups perform the way they do in certain sports.

    Again I don't know if you properly read my earlier posts. Footballing genes does not mean size or height.
    So why mention Hamza Yousuf then, as he is a pretty crap footballer otherwise?


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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So why mention Hamza Yousuf then, as he is a pretty crap footballer otherwise?
    Who is Hamza Yousuf?


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