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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    As for Pakistanis living in Pakistan, they are sly, deceitful, dishonest and delusional. Almost everybody wants to rip you off or wants some money from you. Be it the fruit the vendor who would deceitfully include spoiled fruit in your purchase without you noticing or the hairdresser who would try to overcharge you or the pharmacist who would sell you fake drugs for the price of the real ones. Har Pakistani ka aik haath doosray kay gallay pay hai, aur aik haath doosray ki jaeb (pocket) pay.

    Also, concocting and believing in conspiracy theories is a national pastime. There is a widespread belief that the whole world is conspiring against Pakistan. Everything is a conspiracy! Majority thinks that Pakistan is the custodian of Islam and that the country has a good standing in the international community.
    Totally agree with this.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    The Amreekan perspective of Pakistanis is laughable. For one, Amreekans cannot distinguish between Pakistani and Indian. Mention Indian and you're in the realms of the Natives.
    Actually lot of people can especially in states with big Pakistani communities, we're usually associated with the wider Muslim community and Americans generally think all Brown people and Pakistanis included are just "ay-rabs", that said a lot of people know many Pakistani especially in the tech, finance and healthcare sectors. Most people I've spoken do think Pakistani-Americans tend to be humble and intelligent.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Well said.

    Pakistanis are among the laziest and “kaam chor” people you will come across, and they always have an excuse and justification for their poor work ethic and inefficiency. They cannot survive in a workaholic environment unlike Indians (particularly South Indians) and Bangladeshis.
    Maybe South Indians but definitely not Bangladeshis and Nepalese from my personal experience.

  4. #84
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    I can only share my own experience so here goes.

    I was born in Pakistan and lived in Karachi until 19/20 year old. Nothing was working for me in Pakistan as I came from an underprivileged background & there was severe lack of opportunities, plus I wasn't intellectually smart as well so I left the country by buying a one way ticket to Malaysia (in hopes for greener pastures).

    Almost a decade later I have businesses in Pakistan that employee over 80+ people across three software houses (wanted to give back to my community so decided to always remain on the green passport) However, my experience with dealing with my own people have been quite disappointing, to say the least.

    Dishonesty is ripe and almost as abundant as the unpaved roads in the biggest city of the country. People have tried to swindle me (my own employees) for no apparent reason whatsoever and there were 2 guys, who I sponsored using my Malaysian company to come and work as Software engineers, THEY SLIPPED and tried to illegally cross into Australia via another Pakistani agent who promised them refuge

    There have been employees of mine in Pakistan who tried to syphon my Intl clients for themselves even though they get paid over 120k+ PKR monthly for the work they do PART TIME. I just don't understand why (no matter who I meet and from which part of the country they may be) do they resort to dishonest work and the sad part is that its from my own motherland - Can't even blame anyone else for it.

    Also please, it's a myth that People in Pakistan are hardworking. That nonsensical cliché is nothing but a myth. I run a 3 mil PKR payroll every month across Pakistan and trust me my Malaysian chapter has to do most of the heavy lifting to help me justify that 3 mil figure every month. There was a time I too was of the opinion that People in Pakistan lack opportunity and given the right circumstance they would excel - That's not how it is.

    People in Pakistan just don't have the discipline to compete and excel via hard work. Everyone looks for short cuts and pointing that out, you will be labelled as a Kafir.

  5. #85
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    Honestly, no one really cares or knows much about Pakistan or Pakistanis unless they deal with us in some personal capacity. I work for a small company with a diverse and distributed workforce and no one was aware that Pakistan existed until I joined the company. Mind you we have people working for us from various countries within Europe and no one had any clue about Pakistan or knew any notable thing about it.

    What we need as a nation is a retrospective analysis and soul searching to realize the bitter realities that engulf us. Truth be told, we are a very insignificant country with a surprisingly weird superiority complex that has no justification whatsoever. I do not know how but the culture of dishonesty needs to be extinguished somehow.

    Despite that, the only thing we can do is to try to do our part and create something positive. And I'm very glad that people like @ahmedwaqas92 are trying to create that value, not for just themselves but our country. Let's always remember, boundaries and lands don't make countries, it's the people who do and some of us are doing a stellar job and for that many people around the world will continue to see Pakistan positively.


    Azaadi. InshAllah.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Honestly, no one really cares or knows much about Pakistan or Pakistanis unless they deal with us in some personal capacity. I work for a small company with a diverse and distributed workforce and no one was aware that Pakistan existed until I joined the company. Mind you we have people working for us from various countries within Europe and no one had any clue about Pakistan or knew any notable thing about it.

    What we need as a nation is a retrospective analysis and soul searching to realize the bitter realities that engulf us. Truth be told, we are a very insignificant country with a surprisingly weird superiority complex that has no justification whatsoever. I do not know how but the culture of dishonesty needs to be extinguished somehow.

    Despite that, the only thing we can do is to try to do our part and create something positive. And I'm very glad that people like @ahmedwaqas92 are trying to create that value, not for just themselves but our country. Let's always remember, boundaries and lands don't make countries, it's the people who do and some of us are doing a stellar job and for that many people around the world will continue to see Pakistan positively.
    I have no idea how this can be eradicated. I've meet good people who will be mannered, civil, come from good families, no deprivation whatsoever but still become inherently dishonest in their dealings. I have never understood how this works? I always thought that people who have a challenging past are dragged into these habits but there have been instances where almost a near perfect case turns out to be someone who isn't honorable.

    Someone needs to find out why this is happening in the country otherwise we won't excel anywhere whatsoever. How can a person who has zero handicaps turn evil? It doesn't make sense at all!!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    I can only share my own experience so here goes.

    I was born in Pakistan and lived in Karachi until 19/20 year old. Nothing was working for me in Pakistan as I came from an underprivileged background & there was severe lack of opportunities, plus I wasn't intellectually smart as well so I left the country by buying a one way ticket to Malaysia (in hopes for greener pastures).

    Almost a decade later I have businesses in Pakistan that employee over 80+ people across three software houses (wanted to give back to my community so decided to always remain on the green passport) However, my experience with dealing with my own people have been quite disappointing, to say the least.

    Dishonesty is ripe and almost as abundant as the unpaved roads in the biggest city of the country. People have tried to swindle me (my own employees) for no apparent reason whatsoever and there were 2 guys, who I sponsored using my Malaysian company to come and work as Software engineers, THEY SLIPPED and tried to illegally cross into Australia via another Pakistani agent who promised them refuge

    There have been employees of mine in Pakistan who tried to syphon my Intl clients for themselves even though they get paid over 120k+ PKR monthly for the work they do PART TIME. I just don't understand why (no matter who I meet and from which part of the country they may be) do they resort to dishonest work and the sad part is that its from my own motherland - Can't even blame anyone else for it.

    Also please, it's a myth that People in Pakistan are hardworking. That nonsensical cliché is nothing but a myth. I run a 3 mil PKR payroll every month across Pakistan and trust me my Malaysian chapter has to do most of the heavy lifting to help me justify that 3 mil figure every month. There was a time I too was of the opinion that People in Pakistan lack opportunity and given the right circumstance they would excel - That's not how it is.

    People in Pakistan just don't have the discipline to compete and excel via hard work. Everyone looks for short cuts and pointing that out, you will be labelled as a Kafir.
    There is a motto by which I live by: agar tum kisi Pakistani ki zindagi asaan karogay, woh tumhari zindagi mushkil karay ga! I know it is harsh, but it is true 9/10 times!

    Bhai, Pakistanis have ZERO self-respect, dignity and work ethic.


    I am curious, did they manage to get into Australia?

    I know a lot of people in Pakistan who do not study nor work and only rely on remittances sent to them by their relatives or family members. Most of them wake up, dress up, wear sunglasses, make a few Tik Toks, eat, play luddo and go to sleep. Extremely lazy!

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    Now that you mention it, we are a very flawed society. To be fair though, most communities around the world are lazy and want shortcuts that includes middle easterners, southern europeans, latin americans and africans + south east asians.

    The people with the best work ethic from my personal experience are Northern Europeans and East Asians. While there are plenty of people of other backgrounds that are very hardworking and do succeed, it's cause we mainly conform to western culture, so the successful minorities you see in the west tend to be more westernized likewise countries that have either more western or east asian (japanese) influence tend to be relatively more developed. I know it sounds like self-hate but we gotta realize why some cultures are more successful and learn from them to better ourselves.

    I remember watching this jewish guy on youtube who goes around interviewing israelis on the streets and he once asked israelis what if Israel was established by mizrahi jews (middle eastern) or sephardi (southern european) rather than askhenazi (north european jews), and most of mizrahim themselves said that israel would've been a bazaar like every other Mediterranean country, they're successful because they were established by the colder, more methodical askhenazi jews. I don't think it's racist, it's just a cultural difference. It's probably British/Dutch settled colonies are more developed and wealthier than colonies founded by the Spaniards, Portuguese and French. Colder, anti-social cultures make better environments for academia and ingenuity. Just my theory, I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Giannis; 30th November 2020 at 16:37.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    There is a motto by which I live by: agar tum kisi Pakistani ki zindagi asaan karogay, woh tumhari zindagi mushkil karay ga! I know it is harsh, but it is true 9/10 times!

    Bhai, Pakistanis have ZERO self-respect, dignity and work ethic.


    I am curious, did they manage to get into Australia?

    I know a lot of people in Pakistan who do not study nor work and only rely on remittances sent to them by their relatives or family members. Most of them wake up, dress up, wear sunglasses, make a few Tik Toks, eat, play luddo and go to sleep. Extremely lazy!
    Both got caught by immigration patrolling the borders by sea route. They were deported and black listed from Malaysia and my company got fined USD 20K for letting this happen

    Baap ki Tauba ker li hay kay Kisi ko ab sponsor karunga on work purposes. I'll outsource but won't try this tbh.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    I can only share my own experience so here goes.

    I was born in Pakistan and lived in Karachi until 19/20 year old. Nothing was working for me in Pakistan as I came from an underprivileged background & there was severe lack of opportunities, plus I wasn't intellectually smart as well so I left the country by buying a one way ticket to Malaysia (in hopes for greener pastures).

    Almost a decade later I have businesses in Pakistan that employee over 80+ people across three software houses (wanted to give back to my community so decided to always remain on the green passport) However, my experience with dealing with my own people have been quite disappointing, to say the least.

    .
    Mate that is an incredibly impressive story. A real rags to riches tale! Well done!

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    Now that you mention it, we are a very flawed society. To be fair though, most communities around the world are lazy and want shortcuts that includes middle easterners, southern europeans, latin americans and africans + south east asians.

    The people with the best work ethic from my personal experience are Northern Europeans and East Asians. While there are plenty of people of other backgrounds that are very hardworking and do succeed, it's cause we mainly conform to western culture, so the successful minorities you see in the west tend to be more westernized likewise countries that have either more western or east asian (japanese) influence tend to be relatively more developed. I know it sounds like self-hate but we gotta realize why some cultures are more successful and learn from them to better ourselves.

    I remember watching this jewish guy on youtube who goes around interviewing israelis on the streets and he once asked israelis what if Israel was established by mizrahi jews (middle eastern) or sephardi (southern european) rather than askhenazi (north european jews), and most of mizrahim themselves said that israel would've been a bazaar like every other Mediterranean country, they're successful because they were established by the colder, more methodical askhenazi jews. I don't think it's racist, it's just a cultural difference. It's probably British/Dutch settled colonies are more developed and wealthier than colonies founded by the Spaniards, Portuguese and French. Colder, anti-social cultures make better environments for academia and ingenuity. Just my theory, I could be wrong.

    It's quite simple reason for this actually, in the west which has developed in leaps and bounds since the industrial age, there is law and order enforced quite vigorously. Someone was mentioning about how a Pakistani fruit seller will try to fiddle weights and mix in stale products with their goods when selling. Well guess what? In western countries you actually have whole civil service departments who will address this with weights and measures legislation and respond to complaints etc. I can guarantee you if these weren't in place, western fruit sellers would do the same.

    Most of these problems require simply good procedures which will be enforced with good government. Once people realise they can't cheat the system, the ethics will grow from there. At the moment the common man knows that the authorities themselves are bent and that discourages honesty.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Mate that is an incredibly impressive story. A real rags to riches tale! Well done!
    Let me be honest, I am not an industrialist or a 'rich' person by any stretch of the imagination .

    Yes Allah ka Shukar, I am doing well to how I was a decade or two ago and I've tried to make the lives of those around me better but all I did was put my head down and work hard insanely, especially during the last 3-4 years. 18 hours a day no vacations since 2017. Even when I travelled back to Pakistan it was for work so I guess its just all that culminating to enable me the situation I am in right now.

    I was dumb, unintelligent and completely out of sorts during my teens and childhood, probably still am . If I can manage then literally ANYONE CAN. One just has to be willing to put in the work.
    Last edited by ahmedwaqas92; 30th November 2020 at 17:40.

  13. #93
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    The problem is sub-continent on a whole is poor and over populated. When I went to states I understood this. The difference in attitudes was stunning for me. It is due to the scarcity of opportunities and resources, people of subcontinent become miser and develops exploitation mindset. Hopefully this changes in coming years.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Well said.

    Pakistanis are among the laziest and “kaam chor” people you will come across, and they always have an excuse and justification for their poor work ethic and inefficiency. They cannot survive in a workaholic environment unlike Indians (particularly South Indians) and Bangladeshis.
    How do they survive in a third world country where there is no welfare state?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    I have no idea how this can be eradicated. I've meet good people who will be mannered, civil, come from good families, no deprivation whatsoever but still become inherently dishonest in their dealings. I have never understood how this works? I always thought that people who have a challenging past are dragged into these habits but there have been instances where almost a near perfect case turns out to be someone who isn't honorable.

    Someone needs to find out why this is happening in the country otherwise we won't excel anywhere whatsoever. How can a person who has zero handicaps turn evil? It doesn't make sense at all!!
    A few of my thoughts on this are below

    1. My personal feeling is that we humans by default have a tendency to break rules but when we live within societies there's peer pressure to follow the mainstream values of honesty and sharing. For a society to function normally, the majority population must maintain the moral code and implement it at all times without external policing. This however doesn't work in our country.

    For example, superstores in Europe let shoppers check-out on their own. People are believed to carry out transactions honestly and then pay on their own without any dishonesty. Such a system in Pakistan is unthinkable because there's a risk that people will misuse it. There's no peer pressure in our system to do the right thing, to stand properly in queues, to follow traffic rules even if no one is watching, etc. while in developed countries there's peer pressure to do the right thing as a major chunk of society follows the rules.

    It's not saying that there are no negative elements in other cultures, there are, but they are few and sparse as compared to our culture where we have this mentality that if I didn't do it, someone else will, so it better be me. What we have is a few good people, what we need is a lot more for them to be in majority and kickstart a behavior change.

    2. Our society intrinsically has developed into a hotbed of hypocrisy. No matter which way we slice a cross-section subsegment, it will be overloaded with individuals with a central trait of overarching hypocrisy as their central core belief system.

    This factor alone is visible in every aspect of our society. Some of this stems from religion, some from social values, some from the clash of cultures that we see every day in front of us on our screens. All of that creates an identity that is neither here nor there.

    3. The systemic spread of corruption and the trickle-down effect of the said corruption destroying the moral fiber of beings within our society. We are a materialistic society where the only parameter of success so far is the acquisition of goods. How we get goods is irrelevant.

    The social evolution and empathy that we need are missing from society as a whole. Even the educated in our country laugh at corruption and downplay it. It's hideous to think that people at powerful places have such thoughts and they find no qualms laying it out in the open. Societies cannot move forward without empathy and even if they do, they tend to tear themselves apart. That's why certain empires never rise, and that's why certain fall despite having tonnes of resources.

    4. We also tend to feel this pain more because we understand our people. I've traveled the world and lived in a few places and I've realized that most people that I've dealt with aren't reliable. But when it comes to my people, it feels bad and hurts more because there's a sense of betrayal attached to it.

    Lastly, I don't think that the moral dishonesty of our people can be eradicated completely but I think we can try to do our part to ensure that there's at least some segment within our community that understands that there is a problem. Delving too much into a problem and only caring for it also leads to hopelessness which in itself is dangerous. One thing that is clear is that we won't be excelling unless we get rid of these flaws and the first step of getting rid of a problem is realizing that there's a problem. Unfortunately, many of us as you said aren't willing to accept the problem and start attacking the messenger personally instead of paying attention to the message.

    It'll take time, or it may never happen, but one has to keep trying and that's I think the bottom line of this.


    Azaadi. InshAllah.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    A few of my thoughts on this are below

    1. My personal feeling is that we humans by default have a tendency to break rules but when we live within societies there's peer pressure to follow the mainstream values of honesty and sharing. For a society to function normally, the majority population must maintain the moral code and implement it at all times without external policing. This however doesn't work in our country.

    For example, superstores in Europe let shoppers check-out on their own. People are believed to carry out transactions honestly and then pay on their own without any dishonesty. Such a system in Pakistan is unthinkable because there's a risk that people will misuse it. There's no peer pressure in our system to do the right thing, to stand properly in queues, to follow traffic rules even if no one is watching, etc. while in developed countries there's peer pressure to do the right thing as a major chunk of society follows the rules.

    It's not saying that there are no negative elements in other cultures, there are, but they are few and sparse as compared to our culture where we have this mentality that if I didn't do it, someone else will, so it better be me. What we have is a few good people, what we need is a lot more for them to be in majority and kickstart a behavior change.

    2. Our society intrinsically has developed into a hotbed of hypocrisy. No matter which way we slice a cross-section subsegment, it will be overloaded with individuals with a central trait of overarching hypocrisy as their central core belief system.

    This factor alone is visible in every aspect of our society. Some of this stems from religion, some from social values, some from the clash of cultures that we see every day in front of us on our screens. All of that creates an identity that is neither here nor there.

    3. The systemic spread of corruption and the trickle-down effect of the said corruption destroying the moral fiber of beings within our society. We are a materialistic society where the only parameter of success so far is the acquisition of goods. How we get goods is irrelevant.

    The social evolution and empathy that we need are missing from society as a whole. Even the educated in our country laugh at corruption and downplay it. It's hideous to think that people at powerful places have such thoughts and they find no qualms laying it out in the open. Societies cannot move forward without empathy and even if they do, they tend to tear themselves apart. That's why certain empires never rise, and that's why certain fall despite having tonnes of resources.

    4. We also tend to feel this pain more because we understand our people. I've traveled the world and lived in a few places and I've realized that most people that I've dealt with aren't reliable. But when it comes to my people, it feels bad and hurts more because there's a sense of betrayal attached to it.

    Lastly, I don't think that the moral dishonesty of our people can be eradicated completely but I think we can try to do our part to ensure that there's at least some segment within our community that understands that there is a problem. Delving too much into a problem and only caring for it also leads to hopelessness which in itself is dangerous. One thing that is clear is that we won't be excelling unless we get rid of these flaws and the first step of getting rid of a problem is realizing that there's a problem. Unfortunately, many of us as you said aren't willing to accept the problem and start attacking the messenger personally instead of paying attention to the message.

    It'll take time, or it may never happen, but one has to keep trying and that's I think the bottom line of this.
    We need economic upliftment. Thata the only way. Without economic upliftment cant go around carrying values

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    A few of my thoughts on this are below

    1. My personal feeling is that we humans by default have a tendency to break rules but when we live within societies there's peer pressure to follow the mainstream values of honesty and sharing. For a society to function normally, the majority population must maintain the moral code and implement it at all times without external policing. This however doesn't work in our country.

    For example, superstores in Europe let shoppers check-out on their own. People are believed to carry out transactions honestly and then pay on their own without any dishonesty. Such a system in Pakistan is unthinkable because there's a risk that people will misuse it. There's no peer pressure in our system to do the right thing, to stand properly in queues, to follow traffic rules even if no one is watching, etc. while in developed countries there's peer pressure to do the right thing as a major chunk of society follows the rules.

    It's not saying that there are no negative elements in other cultures, there are, but they are few and sparse as compared to our culture where we have this mentality that if I didn't do it, someone else will, so it better be me. What we have is a few good people, what we need is a lot more for them to be in majority and kickstart a behavior change.

    2. Our society intrinsically has developed into a hotbed of hypocrisy. No matter which way we slice a cross-section subsegment, it will be overloaded with individuals with a central trait of overarching hypocrisy as their central core belief system.

    This factor alone is visible in every aspect of our society. Some of this stems from religion, some from social values, some from the clash of cultures that we see every day in front of us on our screens. All of that creates an identity that is neither here nor there.

    3. The systemic spread of corruption and the trickle-down effect of the said corruption destroying the moral fiber of beings within our society. We are a materialistic society where the only parameter of success so far is the acquisition of goods. How we get goods is irrelevant.

    The social evolution and empathy that we need are missing from society as a whole. Even the educated in our country laugh at corruption and downplay it. It's hideous to think that people at powerful places have such thoughts and they find no qualms laying it out in the open. Societies cannot move forward without empathy and even if they do, they tend to tear themselves apart. That's why certain empires never rise, and that's why certain fall despite having tonnes of resources.

    4. We also tend to feel this pain more because we understand our people. I've traveled the world and lived in a few places and I've realized that most people that I've dealt with aren't reliable. But when it comes to my people, it feels bad and hurts more because there's a sense of betrayal attached to it.

    Lastly, I don't think that the moral dishonesty of our people can be eradicated completely but I think we can try to do our part to ensure that there's at least some segment within our community that understands that there is a problem. Delving too much into a problem and only caring for it also leads to hopelessness which in itself is dangerous. One thing that is clear is that we won't be excelling unless we get rid of these flaws and the first step of getting rid of a problem is realizing that there's a problem. Unfortunately, many of us as you said aren't willing to accept the problem and start attacking the messenger personally instead of paying attention to the message.

    It'll take time, or it may never happen, but one has to keep trying and that's I think the bottom line of this.
    Post of week for me, and being a native Pakistani I agree with every word you said, and I don't know will we ever see light at the end of tunnel. As the saying goes All Pakistanis want change but don't wanna change themselves. That's how delusional we are.

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    Seems like all Pakistanis are hypocrites, sly and delusional apart from the ones who post on here.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Seems like all Pakistanis are hypocrites, sly and delusional apart from the ones who post on here.
    I think most is the correct word, and you generalized it too much. There are always both good and bad in all societies but sadly we have more share of later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndoorCricket View Post
    We need economic upliftment. Thata the only way. Without economic upliftment cant go around carrying values
    While I do not disagree with the sentiment, the question in contention is that even those who don't have financial constraints tend to be dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Seems like all Pakistanis are hypocrites, sly and delusional apart from the ones who post on here.
    Not true.

    The suffering of our own people hurts more and that is the notable sentiment of the thread.


    Azaadi. InshAllah.


  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    While I do not disagree with the sentiment, the question in contention is that even those who don't have financial constraints tend to be dishonest.



    Not true.

    The suffering of our own people hurts more and that is the notable sentiment of the thread.
    Also to add to that, Pakistan and Pakistanis aren't a lost cause despite having issues at the current moment.


    Azaadi. InshAllah.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Also to add to that, Pakistan and Pakistanis aren't a lost cause despite having issues at the current moment.
    Thats the attitude we need bro, Never say Never.
    Shikwa e Zulmat krnay se kahin behtar hai,
    apnay hisay ka ik deep jalaty jao

    its better to light a candle than just complaining about the darkness.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeshan547 View Post
    I think most is the correct word, and you generalized it too much. There are always both good and bad in all societies but sadly we have more share of later.
    It seems that way because we have been living in third world country with corruption rife due to mis management of our rulers. If European or American people were forced to live permanently in Pakistan they would be just as dishonest as common Pakistani. Societies in first world are better behaved because the states runs better. Pakistanis have themselves to blame allowing corrupt politicians to ruin not only our country but also its people by overlooking bad practices and lawlessness. Societies are reflection of the environments and resources. Same Pakistanis, at least most that I know in England work very hard, some doing two jobs and long hours contributing well to state, health services, businesses, politics whilst providing for their families, and having good relationship with their work colleagues, family friends and neighbours. Pakistanis also thrive to keep families united and support their children through thick and thin, and often children return the favour when their parents are in need. So I for one very proud to be Pakistani as we have the best religion to guide us and great cultural values and morals to stop degenerating.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    As for Pakistanis living in Pakistan, they are sly, deceitful, dishonest and delusional. Almost everybody wants to rip you off or wants some money from you. Be it the fruit the vendor who would deceitfully include spoiled fruit in your purchase without you noticing or the hairdresser who would try to overcharge you or the pharmacist who would sell you fake drugs for the price of the real ones. Har Pakistani ka aik haath doosray kay gallay pay hai, aur aik haath doosray ki jaeb (pocket) pay.

    Also, concocting and believing in conspiracy theories is a national pastime. There is a widespread belief that the whole world is conspiring against Pakistan. Everything is a conspiracy! Majority thinks that Pakistan is the custodian of Islam and that the country has a good standing in the international community.
    Self hatred is string with this one. Smh


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    Self hatred is string with this one. Smh
    Expressed a bit strongly but he does have a point.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Expressed a bit strongly but he does have a point.
    All I see is a bunch of self hatred and gross generalizations in the name of an honest discussions .


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    All I see is a bunch of self hatred and gross generalizations in the name of an honest discussions .
    I did say that this thread is based on generalizations and stereotyping which is usually frowned upon but in some cases it holds true. I have to admit a vast majority of our people do run on conspiracy theories a lot. We are talking about people living in Pakistan, by the way. I talk to my old school friends and family and I would say 99% of them kind of fit that description.


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    All I see is a bunch of self hatred and gross generalizations in the name of an honest discussions .
    Guess it depends on your experience with Pakistanis - good and bad in all.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    All I see is a bunch of self hatred and gross generalizations in the name of an honest discussions .
    What you will see with the posters who are genuinely looking for a way forward is they will examine the faults, look for underlying issues and propose some sort of solution. The others are either lamenting woefully or just throwing curses and insults such as sly, dishonest, cheats, hypocritical, and applying across the board, although of course, it will never apply to them or their own families.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    I did say that this thread is based on generalizations and stereotyping which is usually frowned upon but in some cases it holds true. I have to admit a vast majority of our people do run on conspiracy theories a lot. We are talking about people living in Pakistan, by the way. I talk to my old school friends and family and I would say 99% of them kind of fit that description.
    Bhaii , I'll give to this , Our people are are prone to conspiracy theories but who isn't . Heck whole elections are getting decided on tin-pot conspiracy theories right here in the U.S .What I take offense to is calling a whole people deceitful ,dishonest and lazy . Try saying that about any other self respecting nation . Its good to have self reflection but don't turn it into self hate .


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    What you will see with the posters who are genuinely looking for a way forward is they will examine the faults, look for underlying issues and propose some sort of solution. The others are either lamenting woefully or just throwing curses and insults such as sly, dishonest, cheats, hypocritical, and applying across the board, although of course, it will never apply to them or their own families.
    Thankyou !


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  32. #112
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    I've seen a few comments in this thread about UK-based Pakistanis.

    Here's my take.

    My view is that the first generation who came to the UK were very honest and hard-working people who established themselves in the community and worked damn hard to feed their families back home as most of these guys came to the UK initially on their own.

    The second generation continued the hard work of the first generation of Pakistanis and did very well in business and other professions. They established themselves as good businessmen and hard-working people.

    However of late, some of the younger generation and spouses coming from abroad leave a lot to be desired in terms of their commitment to the UK, their work ethic and their integrity.



  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Guess it depends on your experience with Pakistanis - good and bad in all.
    True , so a lot of anecdotal evidence mixed in with a heavy dose of self hatred and inferiority complex.


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    True , so a lot of anecdotal evidence mixed in with a heavy dose of self hatred and inferiority complex.
    Cannot disagree with you.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I've seen a few comments in this thread about UK-based Pakistanis.

    Here's my take.

    My view is that the first generation who came to the UK were very honest and hard-working people who established themselves in the community and worked damn hard to feed their families back home as most of these guys came to the UK initially on their own.

    The second generation continued the hard work of the first generation of Pakistanis and did very well in business and other professions. They established themselves as good businessmen and hard-working people.

    However of late, some of the younger generation and spouses coming from abroad leave a lot to be desired in terms of their commitment to the UK, their work ethic and their integrity.
    As I have seen all three generations in England (my father being first generation) I agree with you but the problem with third generation is not a Pakistani thing but a generation thing. Some youngsters are lazy and have a comfortable life due to hard work of their parents and tend to not believe in hard work.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    Bhaii , I'll give to this , Our people are are prone to conspiracy theories but who isn't . Heck whole elections are getting decided on tin-pot conspiracy theories right here in the U.S .What I take offense to is calling a whole people deceitful ,dishonest and lazy . Try saying that about any other self respecting nation . Its good to have self reflection but don't turn it into self hate .
    I wouldn’t say we are lazy but there is a culture of dishonesty..
    Call it self hate, if you may but I do feel the disappointment a lot and yes I wish I could do something about it but how many of us really can?


    Kut khani hai to aa jao idher, khushbo laga ke!

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    I wouldn’t say we are lazy but there is a culture of dishonesty..
    Call it self hate, if you may but I do feel the disappointment a lot and yes I wish I could do something about it but how many of us really can?
    Ok yea, You make a case for this but one could argue that the tone is set form the top . That's a discussion for another day , I still feel that our people are not Intrinsically dishonest , its more a by product of the hand we are dealt with . No body is born dishonest , why is it we thrive in western civilizations when given an equal opportunity ?
    Last edited by from_da_lost_dim3nsion; 1st December 2020 at 04:48.


    you really can't beat the game. If you earn anything, it's minus taxes. If you buy anything it's plus taxes.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    Ok yea, You make a case for this but one could argue that the tone is set form the top . That's a discussion for another day , I still feel that our people are not Intrinsically dishonest , its more a by product of the hand we are dealt with . No body is born dishonest , why is it we thrive in western civilizations when given an equal opportunity ?
    True, I agree with that assessment. Don’t think anybody is born with an innate sense of dishonesty and corruption. It’s usually our circumstances that shape our attitudes and behaviors.
    As they say you are a product of your surroundings and culture so from that standpoint it makes sense. Still it doesn’t change the fact that we ARE that way because we whether by our fault or not, we find ourselves in a situation where doing right simply won’t do.

    But the reasons for we thrive outside Pakistan are:
    1. We are hard working. (Being corrupt and hard working are not mutually exclusive)
    2. The fear of punishment and repercussions for being dishonest are immense in the west.
    3. Like you said, you can make a mark without being dishonest.
    4. In the US, Pakistanis who get here by sheer hard work, value their clean image and standing and don’t want to jeopardize it by indulging in criminal or unlawful behavior. Also because of their background, they are not used to this sort of stuff to begin with. So that is a deterrent as well.

    But it doesn’t mean some of us are not dishonest in the west at all. Because some dishonesty does go on around here as well.

    I know a lot of gas station owners used to hire students under the table to work for them on cash. So they cheated on taxes and all that. That was pre 9/11 I think they came down hard on that practice in Texas at least so it doesn’t happen much anymore. But I know my fair share of shady characters here as well.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    True, I agree with that assessment. Don’t think anybody is born with an innate sense of dishonesty and corruption. It’s usually our circumstances that shape our attitudes and behaviors.
    As they say you are a product of your surroundings and culture so from that standpoint it makes sense. Still it doesn’t change the fact that we ARE that way because we whether by our fault or not, we find ourselves in a situation where doing right simply won’t do.

    But the reasons for we thrive outside Pakistan are:
    1. We are hard working. (Being corrupt and hard working are not mutually exclusive)
    2. The fear of punishment and repercussions for being dishonest are immense in the west.
    3. Like you said, you can make a mark without being dishonest.
    4. In the US, Pakistanis who get here by sheer hard work, value their clean image and standing and don’t want to jeopardize it by indulging in criminal or unlawful behavior. Also because of their background, they are not used to this sort of stuff to begin with. So that is a deterrent as well.

    But it doesn’t mean some of us are not dishonest in the west at all. Because some dishonesty does go on around here as well.

    I know a lot of gas station owners used to hire students under the table to work for them on cash. So they cheated on taxes and all that. That was pre 9/11 I think they came down hard on that practice in Texas at least so it doesn’t happen much anymore. But I know my fair share of shady characters here as well.
    I know British tradesmen who do work for cash to avoid paying VAT. Indian and Sri Lankan shop owners do the same. You also get Afghan, Bangladeshi and Pakistani restaurants hiring illegal immigrants all over the country, it's not an intrinsically racial quality. It's being slowly stamped out by heavy fines of upt to £20k. That's the way to get people to fall in line, I would suggest it's the way forward in Pakistan as well.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    I can only share my own experience so here goes.

    I was born in Pakistan and lived in Karachi until 19/20 year old. Nothing was working for me in Pakistan as I came from an underprivileged background & there was severe lack of opportunities, plus I wasn't intellectually smart as well so I left the country by buying a one way ticket to Malaysia (in hopes for greener pastures).

    Almost a decade later I have businesses in Pakistan that employee over 80+ people across three software houses (wanted to give back to my community so decided to always remain on the green passport) However, my experience with dealing with my own people have been quite disappointing, to say the least.

    Dishonesty is ripe and almost as abundant as the unpaved roads in the biggest city of the country. People have tried to swindle me (my own employees) for no apparent reason whatsoever and there were 2 guys, who I sponsored using my Malaysian company to come and work as Software engineers, THEY SLIPPED and tried to illegally cross into Australia via another Pakistani agent who promised them refuge

    There have been employees of mine in Pakistan who tried to syphon my Intl clients for themselves even though they get paid over 120k+ PKR monthly for the work they do PART TIME. I just don't understand why (no matter who I meet and from which part of the country they may be) do they resort to dishonest work and the sad part is that its from my own motherland - Can't even blame anyone else for it.

    Also please, it's a myth that People in Pakistan are hardworking. That nonsensical cliché is nothing but a myth. I run a 3 mil PKR payroll every month across Pakistan and trust me my Malaysian chapter has to do most of the heavy lifting to help me justify that 3 mil figure every month. There was a time I too was of the opinion that People in Pakistan lack opportunity and given the right circumstance they would excel - That's not how it is.

    People in Pakistan just don't have the discipline to compete and excel via hard work. Everyone looks for short cuts and pointing that out, you will be labelled as a Kafir.
    I was trying not to participate in this thread but couldn’t hold back after this.

    These are the sentiments that almost all expats share including myself.
    And you know why?
    Had you never left Pakistan and grew your business while remaining in Pakistan, you would not have had these complaints.

    But since you experienced the world outside of Pakistan, you have a genuine first hand knowledge to compare the unfortunate ill elements of our society with others.

    No wonder Pakistan ranks 120 in the world on the scale of honesty.

    I personally know physicians, Engineers, professors, businessmen, cab drivers, etc in the U.S. who tried to move back to Pak with good intentions but not a single one survived. Even the Imam of our local masjid tried THREE times but every time he came back to USA.

    My biggest issue with many in Pakistan is munafiqat.

    Every other person has a beard because it’s SUNNAH and every person flocks to masjid for jumma salah - but many among the beard wearing attendees of Jumma are haram khores, liars, cheaters, thieves, scammers, deceitful, abusers, pedophiles, wife beaters, those who indulge injustice to others, and plain dishonest people - yet they are ready to chop the head off of anyone accused of blasphemy. Munafiqat ki aik hud hai Yar!

    And the funny part is, if you identify these sick traits to people in Pakistan, they will get extremely offended and jump on you to label you kafir or friends with Kafirs.

    There are some good people too in Pak but they are like a needle in a haystack..

    And hence reason why, in many countries, most of the times Pakistanis are not put under a very good light. Some of it is due to media and some of it is due to our own kartoots.

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    I was trying not to participate in this thread but couldn’t hold back after this.

    These are the sentiments that almost all expats share including myself.
    And you know why?
    Had you never left Pakistan and grew your business while remaining in Pakistan, you would not have had these complaints.

    But since you experienced the world outside of Pakistan, you have a genuine first hand knowledge to compare the unfortunate ill elements of our society with others.

    No wonder Pakistan ranks 120 in the world on the scale of honesty.

    I personally know physicians, Engineers, professors, businessmen, cab drivers, etc in the U.S. who tried to move back to Pak with good intentions but not a single one survived. Even the Imam of our local masjid tried THREE times but every time he came back to USA.

    My biggest issue with many in Pakistan is munafiqat.

    Every other person has a beard because it’s SUNNAH and every person flocks to masjid for jumma salah - but many among the beard wearing attendees of Jumma are haram khores, liars, cheaters, thieves, scammers, deceitful, abusers, pedophiles, wife beaters, those who indulge injustice to others, and plain dishonest people - yet they are ready to chop the head off of anyone accused of blasphemy. Munafiqat ki aik hud hai Yar!

    And the funny part is, if you identify these sick traits to people in Pakistan, they will get extremely offended and jump on you to label you kafir or friends with Kafirs.

    There are some good people too in Pak but they are like a needle in a haystack..

    And hence reason why, in many countries, most of the times Pakistanis are not put under a very good light. Some of it is due to media and some of it is due to our own kartoots.
    It's a common thing that more corrupt and dishonest the person is, will act holier than thou than average man on the street. Either because of guilt consciousness or fear of getting caught of their sins they pray more, visit the temple or mosque more, donates to religious trustees more.

    Ofcourse we can't generalize as a relatively respectable person can be religious or a corrupt person can be an atheist but those are really outliers in my experience. Hence I always treat words of wisdom from so called saints with a pinch of salt as they usually are more into earthly matters of corruption, deceit, money, power and exploitation of others.

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakPremi View Post
    As I have seen all three generations in England (my father being first generation) I agree with you but the problem with third generation is not a Pakistani thing but a generation thing. Some youngsters are lazy and have a comfortable life due to hard work of their parents and tend to not believe in hard work.
    To a certain extent, but many of the folk coming over to the UK as spouses from Pakistan already seem to have the mindset that they will do as little as possible and still get by due to state handouts etc.

    This does not bode well for the future.



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    Quote Originally Posted by from_da_lost_dim3nsion View Post
    Self hatred is string with this one. Smh
    I wish I could say something positive about this country but unfortunately, there is nothing!

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    Last edited by saeedhk; 2nd December 2020 at 05:26.


    Sehwag and Steyn are the Best.

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    My experience with Pakistanis in Pakistan and in USA has been positive mostly.

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    I wish I could say something positive about this country but unfortunately, there is nothing!

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    Since you made a reference to him.





    But anyway, coming back to the topic.
    I think not all is lost in Pakistan.

    There are good people, yes they are very few, but there also many, who would not do what they do, if the over all environment was better. The problem is, in many cases, it has become hard to make an honest and halal living in Pakistan. You are forced to do what you wouldn't normally do.

    However, there is always a future and there is always hope. What we need to understand that "Hope is not a plan".

    "God does not change the condition of a people unless they strive to change themselves". 13:11


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