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    Social problems of Pakistan and their solution

    Disclaimer: This thread is NOT about bashing Pakistan and it's social/domestic and internal problems.

    The intent is that we are going to try to discuss the issues and present our solutions.

    If you identify an issue, I expect you to discuss a possible solution as well.

    Some of our social/domestic problems may also relate to India. So Indian members are also welcome to participate. We may have a difference of opinion on political/social/religious matters but may be we can also learn a thing or two from each other?

    So starting with the basic rule of engineering, you must identify the problem, isolate it, find the root cause and fix it.

    If we start with identifying the problems, there are many that we can talk about but highlighting a few major ones will help keep the discussion and effort, focused on what matters the most.

    If I have to identify the two basic and major problems (not the root causes) then these two will be the ones.


    1 - Corruption.
    2 - Explosive population.


    These two then branch out to many other issues, like drying up resources, injustice, lack of awareness, lawlessness, child abuse, women abuse, arrogance, ignorance, and the biggest of the biggest, GREED.
    Greed is the major cause of suffering of entire humanity.

    So, the first issue: Corruption.

    What is it that makes a third world country, a third world country? CORRUPTION.

    We all already know that there is rampant corruption everywhere in Pakistan.

    What's the root cause?

    We have to go back a little in our history to find out.

    After the creation of Pakistan, unlike India, we got very unlucky when Quaid died only after a year.
    So we NEVER had a fatherly figure that we could've looked up to.

    And hence, this new born nation was brought up like a "lawaaris" orphan.

    Most of whoever came into power after Quaid, failed to build the character of this nation.
    Their politics was all about power, selfishness and greed.
    There was no real honesty to build a good moral character of this nation.

    Remember, this is the key of the keywords, "Character Building".

    The effect of a dishonest, selfish and power hungry leadership through out the history of Pakistan, trickled down and slowly, the entire nation had this factor of dishonesty and corruption start running into it's blood.

    And here is the root cause of where we at today.

    Our society, and our school system, whether religious or western, does NOT do any "Character building".

    We have totally and absolutely lost the concept of "PURPOSE" of education.

    Whether you are a teacher or a parent or social atmosphere in Pakistan, the understanding of sending the kids to schools is one and only thing, "Get a degree so that you could find a good job, a good rishta and have some status in the society.

    We fail to realize that these are the BENEFITS of education.

    So what's the PURPOSE of Education?
    Trust me, hardly ANYONE knows n Pakistan. We ALL have forgotten it.

    Before reading further, take a quick pause here and ask if yourself if you know the purpose of getting education? I am almost sure, the best you may have a vague idea but either you don't know it or it's not crystal clear to you.

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    This is our dilemma. We have forgotten it or we never knew the purpose of education.

    The purpose of education is only and only one. That you live the life of honesty.

    And we don't teach this to our kids in schools or in Madrassas and rarely at homes.

    When kids are enrolled into schools, their entire focus and goal is to memorize (ratta maari) the out dated text books, and pass the exams and get a degree. This goes all the way to Master, PhD level, and CSS and CSP exams.

    So when such a student joins the work force where he never had any character building, he has no shame, and there is no mental barrier that should stop him from taking bribes and doing the injustice, and become part of this viscous corruption cycle.

    And hence we notice something very strange.
    The more we educate, the more corrupt we produce.

    Kunki zameer maar deyti aisee taleem.

    A few years ago, I saw a cartoon where a line of kids were entering into a school building, and a line of donkeys were coming out of the exit.

    This, IMO, was a classical example of Pakistani education system. No character building, no focus on living the life of honesty.

    A third grade Jr. school kick out street vendor who weighs his merchandize with honesty is better educated than a PhD holder who takes bribe and does injustice to his responsibilities in a high rise office building.
    This is the gist of it but we don't understand it.
    To us, the more educated is the one who has a degree and has a lot of wealth (regardless of how he has earned it).

    The second leg is our Madrassa education.
    Mostly, kids are enrolled into Madrassa by their parents for two main reasons.
    A. The kid will get two hot meals a day that the parents cannot afford.
    B. Scientific Education is evil, so we want the kid take the "righteous path".

    What generally happens in Madrassas?
    Same as what happens in the schools.

    Kids are focused in memorize Quran (without knowing the meaning) or memorize the hadeeth and alim books to pass the exam and become Alims so that they can find work. Which is usually becoming an imam of a local Masjid. This ensures their daal roti.

    Here is the same problem again. There is NO focus on character building of the kids in the Islamic madrassas.

    The Islam these kids are taught, which they in turn teach to others, is all about stuff that does NOT address the character building. LIVING THE LIFE OF HONESTY in your day to day matters. Diyaanut daari ki zinadagi.

    A good indicator will be, take a look at Islamic Bayans rendered by various of these "sanad yaafta Alims" on Youtube, and see the topics.

    It will be mostly like this,
    1 - Aurat ki sharam gah ka pani haram ya halal?
    2 - Azaan k waqt bathroom jana halal ya haram?
    3 - Dua Qanoot sey pehlay Bismillah parhayn ya na parhayn
    4 - Daarhi kitnee lambi ho
    5 - Namaaz mein haath kahaan rakhayn
    6 - Shalwaar takhno sey auper ya neechay
    7 - Pants mein namaaz parhna jaiz ya na jaiz
    8 - Nail polish na utaarney pe wazoo hota hai ya nahi
    9 - Falana wazeefa parhnay sey saaray gunnah maaf
    10 - Falana wird parhney say itnaa sawaab aur jannat mein itnay mehul.
    11 - Gustaakh-e-rasool (Saw) ki sazaa mout
    12 - (Khud Musalmaan bano ya na bano lekin) Poori duniya ko Muslim banaaney ka junoor sar pe sawaar rakho.


    Notice: These Mullahs will NEVER tell the people or kids in the madrass about the basic lessons from the example of the life of our prophet (saw). A few of these are what?

    1 - Honesty in day to dealing with people. (Saadiq and Ameen).
    2 - Be Merciful
    3 - Be Patience
    4 - Be Generous
    5 - Practice and keep Cleanliness
    6 - Have exemplary manners of how to use your tongue. (akhlaaq)


    So what happens? When the madrassa kids graduate, this is the Islam (Item 1 to 12 above) is what they have learned and this is the Islam they teach to general public.

    What does the general public do in turn? They have long beards, they have their shalwaar's above the ankle, they have a miswaak sticking out their pockets and they have tasbeehs in their hands - but - many of these are just equally corrupt in taking bribes and doing injustice to others at their work place.

    The eid milaad jaloos passes through the streets that are loaded with trash, kachra, gandagi, and ghalaazut but the Ashiqaan-e-rasool (saw) never give it a thought that as per hadeeth, "Cleanliness is half emaan".

    They are unable to think that "Why not keep our streets and our communities and our cities clean in the love of our prophet (saw) and his hadeeth, yet they are ready to chop the head off anyone who is accused of blasphemy?

    well, this is the Islam that has been taught to them.

    And the result? We become one the biggest munafiqs in the Islamic ummah.

    Does it surprise you that Pakistan is world #2 in Hajj attendance but on the scale of Honesty, we rank #120.


    So why this monster of corruption, injustice and cruelty (Zulm), impatience, lack of cleanliness, extreme hypocrisy and munafiqat are common in our public?
    I mean, just think about it, HOW IN THE WORLD is it even possible to have pedophiles in our Madrassa alims community?

    Because the character is not build by the teachers in the school, molvis at the madrassas, parents at home and the society that they were brought up in.

    So the root cause of corruption is: we have lost the ability to build characters at an individual level, and hence, as a nation we have lost our character.

    How to fix this?

    My younger one goes to a karate school here in the United States (A supposedly kaafir country that has many problems of it's own), and for the last few years I hear something the karate teacher repeatedly teaches the kids and asks them to say it outload before during and after every class.

    This is the slogan where he asks.
    "What is integrity?"
    And the entire class replies back loudly, "To do the right thing even when no one is watching."

    This slogan has become part of the character of the kids.

    The kid unwraps a candy and I see that he disposes the wrapper properly in a trash can. He follows the rules outside the home.
    I tried to reward him once with $100 for something that he did good. Guess what this 10 years old asks me? How much of a tax do I owe to the govt from this $100?

    We need to revisit our teaching system, our education system and our academic/religious books in Pakistan.

    Our scholastic and Religious education MUST build the character of kids, at home, at schools, and at Madrassas, so that we move towards creating a society that also builds good moral characters.

    The need is not just to increase the literacy rate but to also, and more importantly educate the kids with the right knowledge.

    If this happens, the corruption could drastically go down when the next generation takes over.


    We also MUST MUST AND MUST need to round up and get rid of this breed of Mullahs whose total Islamic focus is along the lines of items 1-12 as above. Sometimes I feel as if these munafiqs are paid to keep the public astray from the true Islamic message. And just keep them busy in aurat ki sharam gah ka pani.

    If we don't get rid this breed of Mullah, jahaalut won't end.

    And mind you, I am not saying All Alims are bad. Indeed there is a very minor community of Islamic Scholars who are genuine.

    But when it comes to Islamic education,

    We MUST start teaching our kids that there are TWO basic Islamic obligations.

    1. Pray five times salah with good focus.
    2 - LIVE THE LIFE OF HONESTY in your day to day matters. Be merciful, be generous, practice patience, practice cleanliness and make the appropriate use of your tongue



    This should be the focus of all religious sermons. This should be religious atmosphere in our country.
    Nothing else is needed, and nothing else matters.

    All these harri pagri, and white pagri, and deobandi and salafi, braveli, shafi and kafi, and sunni and shia etc is ALL bovine excrement.

    We don't need any of this.


    If we want to wear the badge of Islam on our sleeves then we must do these two things. Pray 5 times salah, live the life of honesty in your day to day matters. This is what Islam is all about.

    If you do these two things, you are done. No need to prove your "Musalmaniyet" to anyone and no need to go on the granular level of having a spec of nail polish on your nail makes a mess of your wazzu.


    Second problem is Explosive Population.

    The major adverse effect of this is drying up the resources.
    There is a state of panic because there are more open mouths in the nest then there the number of insects.

    Everyone is in survival mode by hook or by crook. And hence, it has GREATLY contributed to corruption.

    Trust me, when your stomach is empty, NOTHING goes in your brain. That's a fact.
    As the famous analogy goes.
    Someone asked a starving man, what's 2+2?
    He replied: 4 breads.

    Folks don't care how do they get what they need. There is no honesty at work places and at businesses because the fear is, if you follow the route of honesty in this state of chaos, you will be left empty handed.


    How to address this issue?

    There is a severe lack of funds and economic squeeze on many, many, many poor families.
    And mostly these families in the extremely lower income bracket are the ones that have the highest number or kids.

    I think the govt of Pakistan should allocate funds to provide monetary incentives to every young man and women to go through a free process of female tubal ligation and male vasectomy.

    Right now, many of these poor families can't even think of family planning because the cost of going to a doctor puts them behind in putting a hot meal on the table for kids.

    So when, lets say Rs 10,000 or so is given to get a vasectomy or tubal ligation done, we might see millions getting in line.

    And ANY Mullah who opposes this should be shot at sight.

    This is NOT abortion.
    This is prevention before it occurs.

    This is common sense of an action to address the problem of over growing population and dying resources.

    Islam encourages us to use our intelligence and make wise choices.

    Once the explosive growth of population is tightly controlled, we will have a good amount of resources for everyone. The corruption will be reduced, the state of panic will be calmed down. Masses will more likely to have full tummies so their brain starts accepting what is taught to them.

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    And finally, I am someone who has lived in Pakistan for may years and also, abroad for many years.

    My experiences and my exposures to life may be different from yours.

    I have noticed that sometimes when I discuss these problems with those who have never been outside of Pakistan to have a good comparison between other societies, often get very offended.

    They are not even ready to except any of this as their issue. They will rather jump on you and start talking about problems in USA or UK or Australia or where you a Pakistan expat live.

    This like burring your head in the sand to live in denial, and trust me it won't do any good to anyone, but if you have such a view, don't hesitate to post it. But remember, if you are not ready to accept your issues, you will never be able to fix them.

  2. #2
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    And ANY Mullah who opposes this should be shot at sight.

    you really want this to happen or more of a figure of speech

    I personally don't like the Pakistani attitude of Danda to fix every problem (including this of silencing molvis)

  3. #3
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    Religious extremism is a massive issue but overstated by fake progressives. So many issues in this country that are all interlocked and feed into each other that one does not even know where to begin. Let alone provide solutions.


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    And ANY Mullah who opposes this should be shot at sight.

    you really want this to happen or more of a figure of speech

    I personally don't like the Pakistani attitude of Danda to fix every problem (including this of silencing molvis)
    Obviously a figure of speech but what it really meant is, we need to bring those under the weight of law, who astray the masses in the name of religion.

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    The biggest problem Pakistan faces is religion. Once there is separation of religion and state things can start improving.




    Sua cuique voluptas.

  6. #6
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    Half of the kids in my school cheat so its not a Pakistani problem

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    The biggest problem Pakistan faces is religion. Once there is separation of religion and state things can start improving.
    You think in Pakistan religion and state are not separate! After Khilafat E Rashda, it has always been separate.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    The biggest problem Pakistan faces is religion. Once there is separation of religion and state things can start improving.
    Just move to the west if you want that, unless you're already there.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Just move to the west if you want that, unless you're already there.
    So, then why don't people who want an end to corruption and crime also move to the west?




    Sua cuique voluptas.

  10. #10
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    The biggest cause of problems in Pakistan is the Establishment and its alliance with Molvis. We need to have a secular, progressive Pakistan if we are ever going to make any real progress. To do this, we need civilian supremacy, not Establishment backed puppets.

  11. #11
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    Our biggest issue is our weak institutions. Almost all of our state institutions (apart from armed forces) regressed instead of improving, specially after Ayub. We never really recovered from Bhutto's nationalization drive and his quest for control over bureaucracy.

    IK's two tenures will be crucial for rebuilding these institutions.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Just move to the west if you want that, unless you're already there.
    This is exactly what I mean. Some of these progressives think they’re intelligent but in reality they are so damn close minded and don’t understand the true reality of things


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

  13. #13
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    I don't really understand this topic, if Pakistan really think there are so many social problems. they are living there, what is to stop them from fixing these issues themselves through local government?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Casual racism! That's a huge one


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    Pakistan needs an Attaturk type leader who will be willing to impose reforms by force and not be scared for his life

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    The OP is way off target.

    The cause of corruption is either economic inequality, or power.

    The reason it's easy to bribe a police officer in Pakistan is because they earn peanuts, offer them a year's salary, job done.

    Politicans are corrupt because they seek power.

    Give the common man a decent wage, and corruption would diminish.

    Also, corruption exists today in the West too, if not under guise of bribes, then under the guise of crime.

    As for explosive population, poverty. What are people gonna do other than procreate if they can't work? Hence why India and China have mass population because of mass poverty.

    So none of the traits in the OP are exclusive to Pakistan.

    Move on.

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    Population

    No one in Pakistan would get a vasectomy at least not in numbers that can make a real difference

    Female education is the ONLY way to stop population growth these "vasectomy" are short term solution

    look good on face value but barely makes a difference

    India also did aggressive campaign with vasectomy but its barely making a difference research shows that education is only thing that's actually affecting the population growth

    If we wanna go the China route than that's not good either cause they'll run into the "japan" problem in coming years because their forceful decision was very unnatural

    I believe instead of looking at these radical changes (which often turn authoritarian)

    we should look at these problems like a big ship instead of making hard turns make small subtle changes

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    So, then why don't people who want an end to corruption and crime also move to the west?
    Pakistan was built on the foundations of Islam, and will become a powerhouse that it was slways meant to be, when it starts following the purpose of its creation.
    This journey has finally started after 70 years of confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loralai View Post
    The biggest cause of problems in Pakistan is the Establishment and its alliance with Molvis. We need to have a secular, progressive Pakistan if we are ever going to make any real progress. To do this, we need civilian supremacy, not Establishment backed puppets.
    This seems like the bogeyman a lot of Pakistani "leftists" keep harping on about but the real problems are deeper than that and can't be blamed on any one entity

  20. #20
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    The ills affecting most societies like pakistan can be countered like anything by a good level of education at junior and senior school and madressa level


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    The ills affecting most societies like pakistan can be countered like anything by a good level of education at junior and senior school and madressa level
    EXACTLY!
    But what we must clearly understand is that, what is a "Good level of education"?
    And the fundamental condition for education to be "good" is that it must build the character of the student. "Kirdaar saazi".

    Our current education system is all about ratta maari of long passages, memorizing formulas, passing the exam, get the degree, and finding a job. There is no process of character building.

    To cater the explosive population, there is a school opened in every other street. They charge astronomical amount of tuition fee with the promise of providing good education. And to them, what makes education good, is to copy the syllabus of some western outlet and celebrate western holidays and copy western terms.
    Unqualified or minimalistic teachers are given the task to educate the post precious of our wealth, the young generation and toddler level.

    And hence when these "educated", (even highly educated) people take on jobs, they have no mental barrier in taking bribes, doing injustice and become part of this viscous circle of corruption. There is no character building in our education and that's the major root cause of our problems.

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    Economic improvements & education will always lead to higher standard of living. Pakistan can never make economic progress if half of their population live behind closed doors. One of the backbone of BD economy RMG industry is entirely dependent on female labour force. This boom of female labour force has had a deep impact in BD society. Population growth has decreased naturally as a working women is less likely to breed 4-5 kids. Even in the rural areas you would hardly find families having more than 2-3 kids. Women are getting more education and are actively attending more on social issues. The mullahs have changed along with the society as well. They vehemently opposed women doing jobs & businesses even 20 years ago but they hardly speak about it now. Public perception has changed as well. It's not a stigma anymore for a women to go out and earn a living.

    Women participation in society and economy will automatically reduce many problems Pakistan face today.

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    The 3 biggest issues are over population, state religion ( religion poisons everything else), marginalizing of 50 percent of the population ( women).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't really understand this topic, if Pakistan really think there are so many social problems. they are living there, what is to stop them from fixing these issues themselves through local government?
    Every Pakistani complains about corruption, except on the occasions when they, or their family members, give or take bribes. They don't regard giving (or receiving) bribes to get a teacher or headmaster to give their child better grades in order to get into a better school or university (at the expense of the student who had honestly earned better grades but was unable to pay the bribe) as being corruption. But it is.

    Similar when a bribe is paid to a traffic cop, or even a customs officer at the airport. The list goes on...and on ...

    One PPer on here, who's family runs businesses, and who himself went to some of the best private schools in Pakistan, as well as attending university outside Pakistani, once admitted that the family business paid bribes, and then tried to justify it.

    And yet, he's one of those that shouts the most about the rampant corruption in Pakistan, despite having his own expensive education being paid for as a direct result of his families corrupt practices.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 20th January 2021 at 04:18.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishtiaq_ctg View Post
    Economic improvements & education will always lead to higher standard of living. Pakistan can never make economic progress if half of their population live behind closed doors. One of the backbone of BD economy RMG industry is entirely dependent on female labour force. This boom of female labour force has had a deep impact in BD society. Population growth has decreased naturally as a working women is less likely to breed 4-5 kids. Even in the rural areas you would hardly find families having more than 2-3 kids. Women are getting more education and are actively attending more on social issues. The mullahs have changed along with the society as well. They vehemently opposed women doing jobs & businesses even 20 years ago but they hardly speak about it now. Public perception has changed as well. It's not a stigma anymore for a women to go out and earn a living.

    Women participation in society and economy will automatically reduce many problems Pakistan face today.
    This.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishtiaq_ctg View Post
    Economic improvements & education will always lead to higher standard of living. Pakistan can never make economic progress if half of their population live behind closed doors. One of the backbone of BD economy RMG industry is entirely dependent on female labour force. This boom of female labour force has had a deep impact in BD society. Population growth has decreased naturally as a working women is less likely to breed 4-5 kids. Even in the rural areas you would hardly find families having more than 2-3 kids. Women are getting more education and are actively attending more on social issues. The mullahs have changed along with the society as well. They vehemently opposed women doing jobs & businesses even 20 years ago but they hardly speak about it now. Public perception has changed as well. It's not a stigma anymore for a women to go out and earn a living.

    Women participation in society and economy will automatically reduce many problems Pakistan face today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    This.
    This makes the assumption that women in Pakistan are not working when in reality female workforce participation rates are almost the same India's, in fact Eastern parts of Pakistan such as Punjab and Sindh have similar levels of female workforce participation levels as Bangladesh. I don't what it is with Indian/Bangladeshi members on this forum constantly orientalizing Pakistan and acting like they're significantly better and Pakistan is some stoneaged banana republic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    This makes the assumption that women in Pakistan are not working when in reality female workforce participation rates are almost the same India's, in fact Eastern parts of Pakistan such as Punjab and Sindh have similar levels of female workforce participation levels as Bangladesh. I don't what it is with Indian/Bangladeshi members on this forum constantly orientalizing Pakistan and acting like they're significantly better and Pakistan is some stoneaged banana republic.
    India is not mentioned at all in the post you've quoted. And the comparison that's been made is between Bangladesh and Pakistan. Female participation in the workforce is more than twice as high in Bangladesh compared to Pakistan, and is one of the reasons why Bangladesh now has a higher GDP than Pakistan despite having a smaller population.


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    Elephant in the room.

    Name:  Out of school.jpg
Views: 196
Size:  143.5 KB

    ----

    Just to put it in perspective, out of school % of primary school kids for all south Asian countries sharing the similar challenges,

    Pakistan - 24%
    Nepal - 5%
    BD - 5%
    Ind - 2%
    SL - 1%

    -----------------

    6 years ago I posted a thread in PP. http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...Primary-school

    We have lots of work to do to make sure kids are getting a basic education. No one has any control in where they are born, but they should get basic education.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Elephant in the room.

    Name:  Out of school.jpg
Views: 196
Size:  143.5 KB

    ----

    Just to put it in perspective, out of school % of primary school kids for all south Asian countries sharing the similar challenges,

    Pakistan - 24%
    Nepal - 5%
    BD - 5%
    Ind - 2%
    SL - 1%

    -----------------

    6 years ago I posted a thread in PP. http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...Primary-school

    We have lots of work to do to make sure kids are getting a basic education. No one has any control in where they are born, but they should get basic education.
    This is some HORRIFIC stuff!!!
    Forget everything just imagine the kind of low skilled/ quality workers that would come out of this un educated environment

    I don't think Pakistan is ready for any kind of competitive future economic environment with this stat
    Don't even think about it

    World is moving towards educated workforce (doesn't mean college educated meaning skilled/litterate and a bit tech savvy- this is the kind of workforce going into modern manufacturing environment) in the future this just can't fly
    Honestly this looks like national security threat cause you can't sustain and provide jobs in the future for illiterate/extremely low educated people

    And if this keeps going the way it is going everything can come crashing down because there are NO jobs in the future for that group of people

    And that disenfranchised can easily get involved in crime/millitancy or open rebellion

    Education till FA level should be a basic requirement if you are to compete with the modern world but here even primary school isn't guaranteed for most kids

    This is scary stuff!!

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    There are three main problems: over-population, extremism and a lack of education. Among these, over-population is the worst one and it is the root cease of almost all social and economic problems. Yeh abaadi nahin, barbaadi hai!

    Over-Population

    Unfortunately, the damage has already been done. Pakistan's population is already gigantic and it is almost impossible to bring the population down or even keep it stagnant. There is a strong narrative in Pakistan that whichever souls comes to the earth, Allah would provide for him or her. To counter such a cruel narrative, first, we need to reign in preachers who tell their followers to have as many children as possible. Mufti Tariq Masood AKA Mufti Bolo regularly tells his audience to have 16 kids! Why? "Ta kay Islam ghalib asakay!"

    Most of my relatives or the people I know in Pakistan have at least four to five kids although most are unemployed. Whenever I see them, they complain "Oh, I have five kids and it is very hard to make ends meet,." One of them has five kids and his wife is pregnant again. He earns Rs 15,000 a month. This is madness!

    The government needs to bring all the Islamic preachers under its umbrella and tell them to push for family planning and birth control.

    Second, the government needs to run media campaigns to educate the masses about the importance of having small families.

    Third, the government needs to distribute contraceptives free of cost throughout the country and incentivize vasectomy and tubal ligation as mentioned by the OP.

    To really understand the extent of our country's over-population, you really need to visit Pakistan. You will see that there are way too many children. It is really shocking. Kids are just everywhere!
    Last edited by saeedhk; 20th January 2021 at 05:56.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    This is some HORRIFIC stuff!!!
    Forget everything just imagine the kind of low skilled/ quality workers that would come out of this un educated environment

    I don't think Pakistan is ready for any kind of competitive future economic environment with this stat
    Don't even think about it

    World is moving towards educated workforce (doesn't mean college educated meaning skilled/litterate and a bit tech savvy- this is the kind of workforce going into modern manufacturing environment) in the future this just can't fly
    Honestly this looks like national security threat cause you can't sustain and provide jobs in the future for illiterate/extremely low educated people

    And if this keeps going the way it is going everything can come crashing down because there are NO jobs in the future for that group of people

    And that disenfranchised can easily get involved in crime/millitancy or open rebellion

    Education till FA level should be a basic requirement if you are to compete with the modern world but here even primary school isn't guaranteed for most kids

    This is scary stuff!!
    Indeed.

    Over the years, I recall discussions with many informed posters and they sometimes thought that I am missing some numbers because the situation of Pakistan can't be 10-20 times worse than other countries in the same region.

    I can't think of a bigger problem faced by Pakistan. When I say Pakistan, I meant people at large and not some specific section of the population who may be privileged. Education is the biggest equalizer.

    A kid having a parent with resources will always have an advantage, but a kid having an education will have some chance to improve himself/herself. None of us chose who will be our parents and so many kids are not in school. You and I could have been one of these kids. The scale is scary indeed, but I rarely see many posters discussing this in PP.

    The world has come a long way in the last 50 years, but we still have primary school kids outside of school. Just able to read and write can expose you to so many opportunities even if you don't go for higher education. Without education, some sections of society will keep acting as leaders and exploiters at the same time.

    If the focus is put on this, it will take 1-2 decades but the country can change rapidly with that focus.


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    ^ You are correct. I remember putting up Pakistans horrible education stats a couple of years back.It is a shame for ur as a country.

    Also, 50% of all married women are illiterate. Only 13% of Pakistani girls have an education beyond grade 11.

    44% of all school-age Pakistani children are out of school. The absolute number stands at least 23 million. 52% of primary students drop out by grade 5.

    No government is willing to talk about these issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Pakistan needs an Attaturk type leader who will be willing to impose reforms by force and not be scared for his life
    Nauzbillah. May Allah save all muslims from becoming Attaturk. Ameen.

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    The biggest problem I have found is lack of honesty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    The biggest problem I have found is lack of honesty.
    Of course. It may be harsh but 99.9% of people are dishonest in their every day lives!

    The fruit vendor will try to include spoiled fruit in your purchase discreetly, the pharmacist will sell you fake medicine, the petrol station worker will try to shortchange you, the milkman will sell you adulterated milk, the barber will try to overcharge you, and the custom officer will hold your luggage and ask for money. In Pakistan, you always have to be on your toes.

    I was in Pakistan and believe me, you have to be very vigilant!

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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    The biggest problem I have found is lack of honesty.
    That's just down to lack of legal frameworks and civic administration. You would get the same anywhere if you don't have checks and balances in place. Pakistan is still relatively undeveloped in these areas but it wouldn't be a big leap to start introducing measures to fix it. But would probably need some enforcement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Of course. It may be harsh but 99.9% of people are dishonest in their every day lives!

    The fruit vendor will try to include spoiled fruit in your purchase discreetly, the pharmacist will sell you fake medicine, the petrol station worker will try to shortchange you, the milkman will sell you adulterated milk, the barber will try to overcharge you, and the custom officer will hold your luggage and ask for money. In Pakistan, you always have to be on your toes.

    I was in Pakistan and believe me, you have to be very vigilant!
    100% i remember in my younger days going back home with my dad, he made a real point to call this behavior out and try and educate people but it is so rife in society, from the fruit sellers all the way up to the government officials.

    And those mentioning religion as the issue, i think its Pakistanis cultural traditions masked as religious practices that are the biggest problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    100% i remember in my younger days going back home with my dad, he made a real point to call this behavior out and try and educate people but it is so rife in society, from the fruit sellers all the way up to the government officials.

    This is EXACTLY what I am saying.
    Our so called "Education" is useless!
    Why? Because it does not build characters.

    Our so called "Education" is all about getting a degree and finding a job. And we aren't surprised that when these "educated" people become part of the work force, they have no shame in becoming corrupt and dishonest with their work and with their responsibilites.


    This is the ROOT of all problems. If we want to try to fix it, we MUST give our kids "THE RIGHT EDUCATION" that builds a good moral character.

    I's not about having an FA degree or having a sanad from a madrassa.

    It's about doing the right thing when you have the authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    And those mentioning religion as the issue, i think its Pakistanis cultural traditions masked as religious practices that are the biggest problem
    I think 99% of our so called Mullahs are either the biggest Jahils or they are just as corrupt. Sometimes I feel as if they are paid to keep the people astray.
    Last edited by Colorblind Genius; 20th January 2021 at 22:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    ^ You are correct. I remember putting up Pakistan’s horrible education stats a couple of years back.It is a shame for ur as a country.

    Also, 50% of all married women are illiterate. Only 13% of Pakistani girls have an education beyond grade 11.

    44% of all school-age Pakistani children are out of school. The absolute number stands at least 23 million. 52% of primary students drop out by grade 5.

    No government is willing to talk about these issues.
    when you say grade 5, what age group is that ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by finalfantasy7 View Post
    when you say grade 5, what age group is that ?
    10 to 11 years old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Of course. It may be harsh but 99.9% of people are dishonest in their every day lives!

    The fruit vendor will try to include spoiled fruit in your purchase discreetly, the pharmacist will sell you fake medicine, the petrol station worker will try to shortchange you, the milkman will sell you adulterated milk, the barber will try to overcharge you, and the custom officer will hold your luggage and ask for money. In Pakistan, you always have to be on your toes.
    Bingo! That's hitting the Bulls eye!

    Add to that everyday bribery never mind 'the big stuff'
    .
    Take your above example of the custom's officer asking for money. ie a bribe to look the other way and allow the luggage to go unchecked. The luggage owner is quite happy to pay a bribe for the same reason. Both are corrupt. The bribe giver and the bribe taker.

    Same for a bent traffic cop and a driver breaking traffic laws.

    Or a bent teacher or headmaster and the parents of a student who didn't study hard enough and failed to get the grades needed.

    Or the bent electricity meter reader and the thieving electricity user who rigged the wires so they bypassed the electric meter.

    The list is endless.

    I'm betting that each and every PPer residing in the country is guilty to some extent, for they too would have indulged in 'greasing' the odd palm or two in order to get something done or evade the consequences of their actions, even if its only going through a red light.


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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Of course. It may be harsh but 99.9% of people are dishonest in their every day lives!

    The fruit vendor will try to include spoiled fruit in your purchase discreetly, the pharmacist will sell you fake medicine, the petrol station worker will try to shortchange you, the milkman will sell you adulterated milk, the barber will try to overcharge you, and the custom officer will hold your luggage and ask for money. In Pakistan, you always have to be on your toes.

    I was in Pakistan and believe me, you have to be very vigilant!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Bingo! That's hitting the Bulls eye!

    Add to that everyday bribery never mind 'the big stuff'
    .
    Take your above example of the custom's officer asking for money. ie a bribe to look the other way and allow the luggage to go unchecked. The luggage owner is quite happy to pay a bribe for the same reason. Both are corrupt. The bribe giver and the bribe taker.

    Same for a bent traffic cop and a driver breaking traffic laws.

    Or a bent teacher or headmaster and the parents of a student who didn't study hard enough and failed to get the grades needed.

    Or the bent electricity meter reader and the thieving electricity user who rigged the wires so they bypassed the electric meter.

    The list is endless.

    I'm betting that each and every PPer residing in the country is guilty to some extent, for they too would have indulged in 'greasing' the odd palm or two in order to get something done or evade the consequences of their actions, even if its only going through a red light.

    Again, these are the issues and they are very well known, but these are not the root cause.

    It's like, we are saying there is too much pollution in the air.

    What's the root cause?

    And I stress again, our education (both academic and religious) and our society, does not build a good moral character when are growing up.

    Whether you are at home, at school, at a Madrassa, at the playground, shopping etc, there is hardly any place that our younger generation is raised to put a value on "Living the life of honesty". Diyaanut daari ki zindagi.
    There is no character building of our kids anywhere in the sight.

    And if we want to fix it, we must start with our kids and provide the type of education and upbringing that builds a good moral character.

    And what's the biggest hurdle in our way? The explosive growth of population.

    Obviously, the drying up resources have created a situation of uncertainty and anxiety in the country.
    And when the tummy is empty, NOTHING goes in the brain.

    As the famous saying goes,
    Someone asked a hungry person, what is 2+2?
    He replied: 4 breads.

    The other fraction of the population has something else going on.
    They want to accumulate as much as they can (by hook or by crook) because there is a race between time and inflation that has boosted the greed factor of our human nature. This greed among us have multiplied a 100 times.

    We want to accumulate (by hook or by crook) SO MUCH that it's good for our next 7 generations, and that their "future is secured".

    And when this panic and chaos happens, your faith and your honesty is put to test. Many people fall for it.

    In some cases we may not want to be involved in corruption but we are forced into it. Either by the economical pressure or by the general atmosphere of our surroundings. Everyone is doing it so you do it too.

    Why don't we do as much of a corruption in the western world as we do in Pakistan? Aren't we the same Pakistani people here in USA or England or Australia or Germany etc?

    There are a few main reasons, first of all, there is abundance of every basic necessity of day to day life. And it's primarily because population is under control, and production of electricity, gas, petrol food is more than needed.

    This has created a society where folks don't need to indulge in petty corruption to be able to earn more so that they can make the ends meet.

    It has also put a control on inflation. Unlike Pakistan, there are less mouths to feed and more grain is available. So every basic life necessity is somewhat affordable.

    And since population is under control, it's easier to enforce the law! Checks and balances work.

    In essence,
    Our explosive growth in population has caused a severe shortage of resources that has caused a state of anxiety and uncertainty among the public. The moral compass usually goes out of the window in a state of panic.
    This is our biggest difficulty towards raising our kids with good moral character.

    We MUST control this population bomb, otherwise, we can't fix anything.

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    I believe emphasis on liberal arts education can build a good moral character
    It makes us aware of our place in society and how are actions impact it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Again, these are the issues and they are very well known, but these are not the root cause.

    It's like, we are saying there is too much pollution in the air.

    What's the root cause?

    And I stress again, our education (both academic and religious) and our society, does not build a good moral character when are growing up.

    Whether you are at home, at school, at a Madrassa, at the playground, shopping etc, there is hardly any place that our younger generation is raised to put a value on "Living the life of honesty". Diyaanut daari ki zindagi.
    There is no character building of our kids anywhere in the sight.

    And if we want to fix it, we must start with our kids and provide the type of education and upbringing that builds a good moral character.

    And what's the biggest hurdle in our way? The explosive growth of population.

    Obviously, the drying up resources have created a situation of uncertainty and anxiety in the country.
    And when the tummy is empty, NOTHING goes in the brain.

    As the famous saying goes,
    Someone asked a hungry person, what is 2+2?
    He replied: 4 breads.

    The other fraction of the population has something else going on.
    They want to accumulate as much as they can (by hook or by crook) because there is a race between time and inflation that has boosted the greed factor of our human nature. This greed among us have multiplied a 100 times.

    We want to accumulate (by hook or by crook) SO MUCH that it's good for our next 7 generations, and that their "future is secured".

    And when this panic and chaos happens, your faith and your honesty is put to test. Many people fall for it.

    In some cases we may not want to be involved in corruption but we are forced into it. Either by the economical pressure or by the general atmosphere of our surroundings. Everyone is doing it so you do it too.

    Why don't we do as much of a corruption in the western world as we do in Pakistan? Aren't we the same Pakistani people here in USA or England or Australia or Germany etc?

    There are a few main reasons, first of all, there is abundance of every basic necessity of day to day life. And it's primarily because population is under control, and production of electricity, gas, petrol food is more than needed.

    This has created a society where folks don't need to indulge in petty corruption to be able to earn more so that they can make the ends meet.

    It has also put a control on inflation. Unlike Pakistan, there are less mouths to feed and more grain is available. So every basic life necessity is somewhat affordable.

    And since population is under control, it's easier to enforce the law! Checks and balances work.

    In essence,
    Our explosive growth in population has caused a severe shortage of resources that has caused a state of anxiety and uncertainty among the public. The moral compass usually goes out of the window in a state of panic.
    This is our biggest difficulty towards raising our kids with good moral character.

    We MUST control this population bomb, otherwise, we can't fix anything.
    Population is a curse. I will be honest with you. Pakistan will never be able to control its population. Our people are very illiterate, narrow-minded and hold extreme views. Even now, the average Pakistan rejects birth control. There is a video where the interview goes around and asks: How many kids one should have?

    Almost all of interviewees say: As many as possible.

    Pakistan has the fastest growing population in Asia and it has the highest fertility rate in Asia. In Pakistan, every couple has around 4 kids!

    Also, after my recent trip to Pakistan, I have up on this country. You just have to see it for yourself how people behave, think and live. There is so much hunger, too many little kids working as domestic helpers, heaps of rubbish, schools and hospitals in a state of dilapidation, zero regard for human life, widespread violence against women and children and too much dishonesty. Nothing can change!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
    This makes the assumption that women in Pakistan are not working when in reality female workforce participation rates are almost the same India's, in fact Eastern parts of Pakistan such as Punjab and Sindh have similar levels of female workforce participation levels as Bangladesh. I don't what it is with Indian/Bangladeshi members on this forum constantly orientalizing Pakistan and acting like they're significantly better and Pakistan is some stoneaged banana republic.
    20.7% of the employees in non-agri sector are women in Bangladesh. The number stands at 15.9% & 11% in India & Pakistan respectively.

    PPP of Women employees in Bangladesh is $2873 while in India it's $2331 and in Pakistan it's $1393.

    Bangladesh is way ahead of Pakistan on every economic & social index involving women. Even India is behind Bangladesh on many social indexes.

    in terms of women welfare and development, Bangladesh is so ahead of Pakistan that it isn't even debatable anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Population is a curse. I will be honest with you. Pakistan will never be able to control its population. Our people are very illiterate, narrow-minded and hold extreme views. Even now, the average Pakistan rejects birth control. There is a video where the interview goes around and asks: How many kids one should have?

    Almost all of interviewees say: As many as possible.

    Pakistan has the fastest growing population in Asia and it has the highest fertility rate in Asia. In Pakistan, every couple has around 4 kids!

    Also, after my recent trip to Pakistan, I have up on this country. You just have to see it for yourself how people behave, think and live. There is so much hunger, too many little kids working as domestic helpers, heaps of rubbish, schools and hospitals in a state of dilapidation, zero regard for human life, widespread violence against women and children and too much dishonesty. Nothing can change!
    Pakistan have people like Orya Maqbool Jan who openly deems family planning as a western Zionist conspiracy to curtail growing muslim population, a population that will take over the world just by its sheer number in near future through Gajwa-e-hind and malhala.

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    I note the thread title not only mentioned social problems of Pakistan, but also their solutions.

    Not seeing many solutions offered just a general whingefest. Not too surprising considering the main contributors.


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    How did I stumble onto this?

    Anyway Pakistan's biggest problem is Law and Order. This is the biggest issue in the country.
    Everything stems from this. But what Law? the Law we follow was created by the gora masters who left plenty of ordinances in place. We need:

    1)Law reform
    2)Educational reform (hopefully the current govt is going to at least embed the single curriculum)
    3)Police reform
    4)local govt reform


    so law reform means laws are clearer and will also lead to judicial reform. Swift justice and less scope for corruption. This is also linked to law education

    educational reform so ensure everyone learns the same stuff and gets the same qualifications that are internationally recognised

    Police reform is linked to both local govt and law reform. Easy to enforce laws you understand. Need a depoliticised police force that gives people a clear career path with a good pension.

    Finally local govt reform which will create clean streets, civic local amenities. If you do these things everything else will flow.

    the rest mentioned above is just window dressing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Population is a curse. I will be honest with you. Pakistan will never be able to control its population. Our people are very illiterate, narrow-minded and hold extreme views. Even now, the average Pakistan rejects birth control. There is a video where the interview goes around and asks: ‘How many kids one should have?’

    Almost all of interviewees say: ‘As many as possible.’

    Pakistan has the fastest growing population in Asia and it has the highest fertility rate in Asia. In Pakistan, every couple has around 4 kids!

    Also, after my recent trip to Pakistan, I have up on this country. You just have to see it for yourself how people behave, think and live. There is so much hunger, too many little kids working as domestic helpers, heaps of rubbish, schools and hospitals in a state of dilapidation, zero regard for human life, widespread violence against women and children and too much dishonesty. Nothing can change!

    Did you watch this yet?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Did you watch this yet?

    Not this one but watched quite a lot. One had a guy who had 48 kids and said he wanted more. He was dirt poor.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Again, these are the issues and they are very well known, but these are not the root cause..
    Of course they are the cause. If a child see's everyone around them, their parents, neighbours, teachers et al, all indulging in bribery to various extents as a way of life, the child too is going to see that as being just the norm no matter how much 'education' they are given.

    What are they going to see as being corrupt and what is normal? What the (corrupt) teacher teaches them or what he does himself? What the (corrupt) parents teach him, or what he see's with his own eyes what the parents are actually doing?

    Perhaps the answer to eliminating this low level bribery by virtually everyone is not to penalise them (after all, who's going to penalise them if the police and judges are also corrupt?), but name and shame them using the media, social media and all other means. Break the circle of everyday corruption, and start giving the message that big or small, bribery is bribery. It will take time, but hey, you've got to start somewhere.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”


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