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  1. #1
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    Numbers expose the mediocrity of Mitchell Starc

    Mitchell Starc leads a charmed life as a Test bowler. Here is a man with pace, a left-armer's angle and he is 6'6 in height.

    Yet let's be frank: he's mainly in the Test team to create rough for Nathan Lyon and to blow away tailenders.

    Just consider his bowling record in a little detail:

    FACT 1: Starc's record before the Reverse Swing Era
    91 wickets in 25 Tests, average 30.58

    FACT 2: Starc's record during the Reverse Swing Era (2016-March 2018)
    88 wickets in 16 Tests, average 23.19

    MISLEADING FACT: Starc's overall record since Sandpapergate
    75 wickets in 19 Tests, average 26.98

    FACT 3: Starc's Pink Ball Day/Night record since Sandpapergate
    30 wickets in 4 Tests, average 13.07

    FACT 4: Starc's Red Ball record since Sandpapergate
    45 wickets in 15 Tests, average 36.27

    Mitchell Starc is surviving as a Test bowler on the basis of his white and pink ball record.

    But he is a 30 year old man, who in 15 red ball Tests since the Sandpaper tactic was exposed has a red ball Test bowling average of 36 runs per wicket.

    Starc since Sandpapergate has 45 red ball wickets in 15 Tests, average 36.27.

    In the same time, Shadab Khan has 16 red ball wickets in 5 Tests, average 28.30.

    That's how bad Mitchell Starc is as a red ball bowler who has to bowl with an undoctored ball. How on earth is he keeping James Pattinson out of the team?

  2. #2
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    I agree that Starc has been less than impressive in the test arena recently, but not sure it's got much to do with sandpaper. If that were true, we would have probably seen a drop in Pattinson and Hazelwood's performance too but that hasn't happened.

    Bowlers sometimes go through patches and he's going through a rough one.

  3. #3
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    You seem very obsessed with Starc, did he refuse to give you a autograph or something.

  4. #4
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    Starc is terrible in Test cricket.

    In ODI’s, he has not an equal in the world during WC’s. But in bilaterals, he’s like Irfan Pathan; hot or cold.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 19th January 2021 at 06:35.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman View Post
    I agree that Starc has been less than impressive in the test arena recently, but not sure it's got much to do with sandpaper. If that were true, we would have probably seen a drop in Pattinson and Hazelwood's performance too but that hasn't happened.

    Bowlers sometimes go through patches and he's going through a rough one.
    Iím not accusing him of cheating.

    Hazlewood and Cummins are classical fast bowlers who aim at the top of off-stump and take their wickets caught by the keeper or in the slips cordon.

    Starc bowls the same way with every colour of ball: mixing up bouncers and full deliveries. But when he doesnít get reverse swing, those full deliveries donít get top order Test batsmen out.

    I donít even understand why he does this. Mitch Johnson was the same pace and 3 inches shorter, but at least he could make batsmen play shots outside off-stump.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You seem very obsessed with Starc, did he refuse to give you a autograph or something.
    Putting aside Junaids' obvious biases, he's not wrong to claim Starc has been pretty mediocre in Test cricket the last couple of years outside Day Night tests. He was also surprisingly poor in the white ball games against India as well. Understandable to play him if there aren't any good options on the bench, but Pattinson and perhaps even Neser would be more effective than he has been of late.

  7. #7
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    Pretty much a rich man's Jeff Thomson.

    Also this goes to show that the records of past era bowlers are also inflated due to bowling with tampered ball when there wasn't much camera surveillance.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeteshssaxena View Post
    Pretty much a rich man's Jeff Thomson.

    Also this goes to show that the records of past era bowlers are also inflated due to bowling with tampered ball when there wasn't much camera surveillance.
    Spot on. If we are bashing Starc because of inflated stats during the reverse swing period, what do we make of fast bowlers of 80s and 90s who blatantly tampered with the bowl for getting an extra advantage.

    It will only be fair to say that a bowler like Mohammad Shami with his reverse swing skills in that era would have actually been an ATG test bowler IMO.

  9. #9
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    Starc is a minnow (WI/SL/Pak)+ D/N test hero. Filter those stats away and his numbers will fall through the floor.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  10. #10
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    Starc without reverse swing is very manageable.

  11. #11
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    Starc's performance in home series' since SandpaperGate

    2018/19 India - 34.53
    2018/19 SL - 16.41
    2019/20 Pakistan - 19.xx
    2019/20 NZ - 17.86 (Current World no.1 side)
    2020/21 India - 37.72 *

    make of that what you will @Junaids


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's performance in home series' since SandpaperGate

    2018/19 India - 34.53
    2018/19 SL - 16.41
    2019/20 Pakistan - 19.xx
    2019/20 NZ - 17.86 (Current World no.1 side)
    2020/21 India - 37.72 *

    make of that what you will @Junaids
    Runs against Starc donít count.

  13. #13
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    As soon as a player reaches 30, Junaids starts to have some issue or the other with the player. What is with you and 30s bro?

  14. #14
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    Lol Indians always Bully Starc

  15. #15
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    Personally I have always rated Cummins and Hazelwood the higher, although Starc is arguably more mercurial and exciting to watch.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's performance in home series' since SandpaperGate

    2018/19 India - 34.53
    2018/19 SL - 16.41
    2019/20 Pakistan - 19.xx
    2019/20 NZ - 17.86 (Current World no.1 side)
    2020/21 India - 37.72 *

    make of that what you will @Junaids
    In those Tests v SL, Pakistan and NZ, 3 of the 7 Tests were Pink Ball Tests, in which he took 25 wickets at 10.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Mitchell Starc leads a charmed life as a Test bowler. Here is a man with pace, a left-armer's angle and he is 6'6 in height.

    Yet let's be frank: he's mainly in the Test team to create rough for Nathan Lyon and to blow away tailenders.

    Just consider his bowling record in a little detail:

    FACT 1: Starc's record before the Reverse Swing Era
    91 wickets in 25 Tests, average 30.58

    FACT 2: Starc's record during the Reverse Swing Era (2016-March 2018)
    88 wickets in 16 Tests, average 23.19

    MISLEADING FACT: Starc's overall record since Sandpapergate
    75 wickets in 19 Tests, average 26.98

    FACT 3: Starc's Pink Ball Day/Night record since Sandpapergate
    30 wickets in 4 Tests, average 13.07

    FACT 4: Starc's Red Ball record since Sandpapergate
    45 wickets in 15 Tests, average 36.27

    Mitchell Starc is surviving as a Test bowler on the basis of his white and pink ball record.

    But he is a 30 year old man, who in 15 red ball Tests since the Sandpaper tactic was exposed has a red ball Test bowling average of 36 runs per wicket.

    Starc since Sandpapergate has 45 red ball wickets in 15 Tests, average 36.27.

    In the same time, Shadab Khan has 16 red ball wickets in 5 Tests, average 28.30.

    That's how bad Mitchell Starc is as a red ball bowler who has to bowl with an undoctored ball. How on earth is he keeping James Pattinson out of the team?
    Shadab has 14 wickets in 6 tests at 36 the last 2 were the no 10 and 11 of England what a comparison.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    In those Tests v SL, Pakistan and NZ, 3 of the 7 Tests were Pink Ball Tests, in which he took 25 wickets at 10.
    The Aussies really do bully with the pink ball. Had India played only red ball tests, we would have already won the series already. Thank you for exposing them.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  19. #19
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    Few times OP is right

  20. #20
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    Lol..funny to see people write off Starc so easily


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's performance in home series' since SandpaperGate

    2018/19 India - 34.53
    2018/19 SL - 16.41
    2019/20 Pakistan - 19.xx
    2019/20 NZ - 17.86 (Current World no.1 side)
    2020/21 India - 37.72 *

    make of that what you will @Junaids


    lol.

    Starc is a legend against weaker teams.

    Sucks against quality bats.

    I think the NZ average would be at home.

    Would be interested to see his numbers in Eng and NZ.


    Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by karthikc View Post
    Lol..funny to see people write off Starc so easily
    Heís been always mediocre in tests.

    Firstly lot of his wickets have come due to pressure built by other superior bowlers. And even then he average 35 against top 7.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post


    lol.

    Starc is a legend against weaker teams.

    Sucks against quality bats.

    I think the NZ average would be at home.

    Would be interested to see his numbers in Eng and NZ.
    Itís not even weaker teams. Most of his wickets come against tail.

    He average 34-35 against Top 7 and 16-17 against tail.

  24. #24
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    I agree, Starc is overrated and has generally struggled against better batting line ups in test cricket. Bowlers like Mitchell Johnson, Ryan Harris were much better than him.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post


    lol.

    Starc is a legend against weaker teams.

    Sucks against quality bats.

    I think the NZ average would be at home.

    Would be interested to see his numbers in Eng and NZ.
    This is for home series' only. And all stats are post sandpaper.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  26. #26
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    Starc is there to wipe out the tail, he is good with yorkers and intimidating the tail. When he got dropped against England in the ashes, the likes of Hazelwood, Cummins, Pattison struggled to bowl Yorkers against the tail.

  27. #27
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    Starc is like Amir, just a bit better. Needs good conditions to be effective.

  28. #28
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    Starc even at his best was a bit of a tail specialist. Bowls bowls two lengths mostly.
    Its a fact that left armers are better limited overs bowlers. Something about that bowling style that soest suit test cricket, even the greatest of them all was a better limited overs bowler comparatively.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethan hunt View Post
    Starc even at his best was a bit of a tail specialist. Bowls bowls two lengths mostly.
    Its a fact that left armers are better limited overs bowlers. Something about that bowling style that soest suit test cricket, even the greatest of them all was a better limited overs bowler comparatively.
    It's the angle from over the wicket. Unless they get consistent inswing, they are not a threat all the time.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  30. #30
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    Starcs last 15 red ball matches gives u 53 wickets @32, funnily enough you have to actually include the sandpaper game for that. If you exclude it, you get 14 matches 51 Wickets @30.11. Which is not bad at all for Australia's third pace bowler. Nothing like 36 which OP is claiming

    Also if you want to put things into context, Starc has played almost exclusively in Home conditions since then, where he averages 24, only in UAE did his average balloon up(where the supporting bowlers were Siddle and Mitch Marsh lol). So as a bowler in Australian conditions, it's perfectly fine to have your third best pace bowler average 24, and also deal with the tail.

  31. #31
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    Also, another side note - Starc is a "30 year old man" but Pattinson is an injury prone "30 year old man"(about 100 days younger). Lol

  32. #32
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    Meh.

    Anyone who has actually watched this guy bowl for long periods will not need (m)any statistics to illustrate his efficacy lack thereof.

    If one has watched bowlers of yore (not grainy YouTube footage) they will know there is is not any thought to be facilitated regarding comparisons.

    For the majority of posters here who have not actually watched bowlers from the previous era, Starcís bowling compared to just that of his contemporaries should be enough to underline the gulf.

    Trying not to write another Russian novel-sized post here but letís just remind that in this series alone when the ball has started reversing for AUS Paine under-bowled Starc and preferred to let Hazlewood and Cummins operate; Hazlewood got more shape with the old ball than Starc did with the same (old) cherry. Think I posted this on the relevant match thread in the previous Test (unless I am mixing up threads here).

    Sure there was Sandpaper gate. But frankly it should not change so drastically that you keep getting out-bowled by your own colleagues when the conditions are meant to be more conducive to your own style. You should not be thought of as the bowler who will let pressure off when you come on to bowl.

    If that does indeed happen, you have more questions to answer than simply having been the beneficiary of a practice which everyone engages in to varying degrees.

    For a while now Starc has blown hot and cold. Heís often been the go to guy to clean up the tail but over time his ability to take wickets at the top has drastically gone down. Cummins has only recently become a key fixture in the side. And it was not like he came into the side when Starc was injured for too long and stole his spoils. Yet he has displaced Starc well and truly. Would not have been surprised if Starcís reputation would never have developed had Cummins played throughout but this is stoking speculation which I would prefer to not to.

  33. #33
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    He is quite good. Just 1/2 bad matches does not change that.


    ...

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    He is quite good. Just 1/2 bad matches does not change that.
    Lol not with the Australians. Australians take losing very seriously and Starc has been disasterous with an average of 40 whereas Hazelwood and Cummins have averaged less than 20 on this tour. The selectors will hold him responsible for this result.

  35. #35
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    It's funny how the height suddenly lost all importance seeing him get a phainty!! Quality of bowling matters, not height. OP basically just did a complete about turn after an egg on his face.

  36. #36
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    James Pattinson should reply Starc for the South Africa series.

  37. #37
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    He is a bowling machine now like Wahab Riaz. His new action has taken away the extravagant swing he used to generate with the new ball(nothing to do with sand paper). His stats in recent ODIs are pretty average as well.

  38. #38
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    Shubhman Gill took him apart real good today.

  39. #39
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    Excellent one day bowler but has significantly regressed in tests. You can draw your own conclusions why.

  40. #40
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    Let's assess him after SA series. This could be a freak win by India and I hope he is not judged based on this .


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by viveks View Post
    Starcs last 15 red ball matches gives u 53 wickets @32, funnily enough you have to actually include the sandpaper game for that. If you exclude it, you get 14 matches 51 Wickets @30.11. Which is not bad at all for Australia's third pace bowler. Nothing like 36 which OP is claiming

    Also if you want to put things into context, Starc has played almost exclusively in Home conditions since then, where he averages 24, only in UAE did his average balloon up(where the supporting bowlers were Siddle and Mitch Marsh lol). So as a bowler in Australian conditions, it's perfectly fine to have your third best pace bowler average 24, and also deal with the tail.
    Basically this. Indians were simply merciless against him. He still can win games for Australia.

  42. #42
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    Starc's decline is what would have possibly happened to Waqar had they monitored tampering as strictly those days. he would have still had good performances against weaker batting lineups but top teams would have had the wood over him.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's decline is what would have possibly happened to Waqar had they monitored tampering as strictly those days. he would have still had good performances against weaker batting lineups but top teams would have had the wood over him.
    Waqar reinvented himself as a new ball outswing bowler once he lost pace. He wasn't all reverse swing.
    Starc's decline to me seems terminal as he still is a pitch it up and pitch it short bowler so late in his career.

    Pakistan needs to find a good right armer to partner shaheen, history is against left armers.

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    Never rated him as a Test bowler. All it takes is to watch a few overs of his bowling in the longest format to realize that he is bang average


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

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    Starc is only 30. It is not the end of road/ career for him. He will be back. Has at least 5 yrs left in him.


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  46. #46
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    You don’t get good batsmen out in test cricket by bowling random bouncers and full deliveries with no plan.


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethan hunt View Post
    Waqar reinvented himself as a new ball outswing bowler once he lost pace. He wasn't all reverse swing.
    Starc's decline to me seems terminal as he still is a pitch it up and pitch it short bowler so late in his career.

    Pakistan needs to find a good right armer to partner shaheen, history is against left armers.
    This is true. Left armers need to bowl majority of their overs from around the wicket to be effective which most don't seem to be able to do. Shaheen's stats would have been a whole lot better had he been a right armer.
    Last edited by Nikhil_cric; 19th January 2021 at 16:27.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliasad1998 View Post
    Never rated him as a Test bowler. All it takes is to watch a few overs of his bowling in the longest format to realize that he is bang average
    61 tests 255 wickets 27.57 avg 49.3 SR

    These are not ordinary numbers in a batsmen friendly era FGS.


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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    61 tests 255 wickets 27.57 avg 49.3 SR

    These are not ordinary numbers in a batsmen friendly era FGS.
    Don’t care about numbers here. I have my eyes. He is not in the same league as his fellow bowlers in this format


    Hard to get a handle on this double edged sword

  50. #50
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    Starc has never been a great test bowler.
    He can be effective only when the ball swings, either reverse or conventional.

    Has been pretty bad in recent times and if you some analysis it shows that most of his wickets are of tailenders.

    He really struggles against top order batsman (in red ball games).

    Time for Pattinson to come in.

  51. #51
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    He is definitely overrated in tests. Cummins and Hazlewood both are atleast a league above him. Aus management thinks that he provides bit of “X factor” or variety like Lee and Johnson used to do but, even for that Starc has struggled against top teams especially in recent times. Pattinson deserves a go.
    Last edited by Titan24; 19th January 2021 at 17:06.

  52. #52
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    The current over hyped Australian bowling attack of cummins,starc,hazelwood and lyon by the former Australian cricketers who were part of the Fox commentary, was being so hyped after that 36 all out against India at Adelaide till the third match at sydney and

    now after losing the match at Brisbane the same players are questioning about what went wrong that this hyped attack which failed to deliver at Sydney and then again at Brisbane on a day 5 pitch at home conditions to a Indian batting attack which has its best batsmen Kohli not playing in both of those matches

    IMO only cummins has shown he can be a top class bowler but I dont know how he has performed or will perform in conditions which does not help Fast bowlers,where as the other three have shown to be good bowlers when they are at their best but certainly not an ATG attack which was being hyped after that 36 incident

    To be an ATG attack I think you ought to have two ATG bowlers who deliver with their performances when the team needs it and this attack not only starc but all the other three has a long way to be labelled as an ATG attack

    Though Lyon have played enough matches and is a good bowler but IMO certainly not an ATG spinner yet who takes wickets mostly due to the batsmen mistakes of poor temperament by slogging him or being attacking to his bowling rather than taking wickets even when he is being being defended by the batsmen which does not happens when the team needs it like at Sydney and Brisbane

    Starc have always been a kind of a attacking bowler who does very well in conditions that suit or help fast bowling especially against mid to low ranked team he performs very well and against top ranked teams like India England and the past RSA side he goes for runs and less effective than the low ranked teams
    Last edited by Geil; 19th January 2021 at 17:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    61 tests 255 wickets 27.57 avg 49.3 SR

    These are not ordinary numbers in a batsmen friendly era FGS.
    Average numbers are averaging 35 against top 7 batsmen

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's decline is what would have possibly happened to Waqar had they monitored tampering as strictly those days. he would have still had good performances against weaker batting lineups but top teams would have had the wood over him.
    By the end of his career, Waqar was a complete liability with the old ball. He could only take wickets with the new ball, as soon as it stopped swinging he was bowling gun barrel straight at 84-85 mph.

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    Don't understand why would you remove Sandpaper stats.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    By the end of his career, Waqar was a complete liability with the old ball. He could only take wickets with the new ball, as soon as it stopped swinging he was bowling gun barrel straight at 84-85 mph.
    Look 84-85 mph? He would bowl at Mark Ealhams pace of 76-78 mph with the old ball. He was at best a 3-4 over new ball bowler, utterly useless and a liability with the old ball. In fact, he even as captain would avoid bowling himself at the death and would instead give the ball to the likes of Wasim, Shoaib, Razzaq, Saqlain instead

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Look 84-85 mph? He would bowl at Mark Ealhams pace of 76-78 mph with the old ball. He was at best a 3-4 over new ball bowler, utterly useless and a liability with the old ball. In fact, he even as captain would avoid bowling himself at the death and would instead give the ball to the likes of Wasim, Shoaib, Razzaq, Saqlain instead
    He could still crank it up to 84-85 mph, but that was his ceiling.

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    You know it's bad when your wife has to defend your performance in public. Forget the team, he is probably not even the second best sports person in the family.

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    For once I agree with OP. Starc did not become the ATG that may predicted him to be. He is not on the level of Cummins and Hazelwood who are significantly superior. Starc might still end up going down as an ODI ATG just because of his performances in World Cups. But in tests he's just overrated. The way Gill took him apart today was surprisingly fun to see.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedwoodOriginal View Post
    For once I agree with OP. Starc did not become the ATG that may predicted him to be. He is not on the level of Cummins and Hazelwood who are significantly superior. Starc might still end up going down as an ODI ATG just because of his performances in World Cups. But in tests he's just overrated. The way Gill took him apart today was surprisingly fun to see.
    If Gill is a special talent then this might not be that bad of a performance like how Kohli manhandled Malinga in 2012.


    ...

  61. #61
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    This series has heavily damaged the stock of Starc and Lyon.


    Arsenal all the way!! (and Pakistan, of course!)

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebat View Post
    This series has heavily damaged the stock of Starc and Lyon.
    It was the same in 2018. Starc and Lyon learnt nothing from that series against the same opposition who literally applied the same tactics against them this time around as well

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    If Gill is a special talent then this might not be that bad of a performance like how Kohli manhandled Malinga in 2012.
    As someone who values test cricket more this is a much more consequential, star-making performance imo. And I'm taking nothing away from that performance which I am sure has a very special place in the hearts of Indians.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethan hunt View Post
    Waqar reinvented himself as a new ball outswing bowler once he lost pace. He wasn't all reverse swing.
    Starc's decline to me seems terminal as he still is a pitch it up and pitch it short bowler so late in his career.

    Pakistan needs to find a good right armer to partner shaheen, history is against left armers.
    Correct. Thats why Waqar was still a very effective white ball bowler even near the end of his career while he tappered away in tests. With the reverse swing gone in tests he was just a good bowler.

    The crackdown on reverse swing achieved by illegal means has coincided with decline in pakistan's fast bowling.

  65. #65
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    starc has been awful

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    Let's assess him after SA series. This could be a freak win by India and I hope he is not judged based on this .
    This is ďfreakĒ (not fluke) win by IND. No matter Starc/Hazlewood/Cumminsí forms, a 3-5 Test series away is always a challenge.

    Thatís away in SAF, right? All else being equal, I would expect him to do better in those conditions.

    AUS conditions have neither elaborate bounce, nor elaborate movement. Which means Starc needs to bowl his entire spells around 150kph or at the same pace he is bowling now with little margin for error. All in all, his efficacy on AUS wickets with the red ball has been up for questioning for a while now, especially where top order/middle order batsmen are concerned.

    He should do better in SAF unless heís on an unstoppable downward spiral which only time can tell.
    Last edited by Yk313; 19th January 2021 at 22:55.

  67. #67
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    Name:  39EB1F3C-E857-4FF1-877E-6413F46BB907.jpg
Views: 428
Size:  20.6 KB

  68. #68
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    How are people comparing putting sandpaper on the ball to More surveillance these days means the likes of Waqar Younis would be ineffective. Dont think Waqar needed sandpaper to reverse the ball nor did it ever go that far with that team.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nado_ View Post
    How are people comparing putting sandpaper on the ball to More surveillance these days means the likes of Waqar Younis would be ineffective. Dont think Waqar needed sandpaper to reverse the ball nor did it ever go that far with that team.


    It did. The 1992 tour of England is one obvious example.

    Starc bowling with balls tampered with bottle caps in the 80s and early 90s would be averaging in the teens.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    [/b]

    It did. The 1992 tour of England is one obvious example.

    Starc bowling with balls tampered with bottle caps in the 80s and early 90s would be averaging in the teens.
    And Viv Richards would be averaging in 70s in today's ODI cricket.

  71. #71
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    Starc is one of the best LOI bowlers probably of all time, but he has always been negotiable in Tests.

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    I've been banging on about this for a while now.

    Pattinson and J. Richardson are better test bowlers.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyRabbit View Post
    And Viv Richards would be averaging in 70s in today's ODI cricket.
    No he wonít. Probably similar average with a 100+ SR. Basically de Villiersí type numbers.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Starc's decline is what would have possibly happened to Waqar had they monitored tampering as strictly those days. he would have still had good performances against weaker batting lineups but top teams would have had the wood over him.
    Lol. Do you know how many ODI 5fers Waqar has? And that too sharing the new ball with other strike bowlers.


  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nado_ View Post
    How are people comparing putting sandpaper on the ball to More surveillance these days means the likes of Waqar Younis would be ineffective. Dont think Waqar needed sandpaper to reverse the ball nor did it ever go that far with that team.
    Pringle got 7/52 with bottle caps. Even Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were reversing the ball using bottle caps.

    ----------------------------------------------

    One of the most bizarre - and blatant - instances of ball tampering occurred during New Zealand's tour of Pakistan in the autumn of 1990. From the off, New Zealand expressed deep reservations about the way that the Pakistan bowlers got the ball to reverse swing, and the appearance of the ball. Most dismissed this as sour grapes as the tour had been in trouble before it started. Several leading New Zealanders opted out of making the trip, leading to Imran Khan also absenting himself after protesting at what he believed would be a "mismatch". And then when the Pakistan Cricket Board suggested appointing neutral umpires, Martin Crowe, New Zealand's captain, said that it had to be "better than having two Pakistani umpires". Unsurprisingly, the PCB did an about-turn and dropped the plan.

    In the opening Test at Karachi, New Zealand were twice bowled out for under 200 as Pakistan, thanks to 203 from Shoaib Mohammad, won by an innings.

    In the second Test at Lahore, Martin Crowe remembered that he encountered reverse-swing for the first time on his way to a second-innings hundred. "Six supposed outswingers [from Wasim Akram] suddenly became six lethal inswingers. I had never seen it before and I became curious." During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing."

    Later in the day the ball went out of shape and was changed. As it was thrown to the boundary by the umpires, Willie Watson and Mark Priest rushed to intercept it. "It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed. The pair took it back to the changing-room but, so Crowe noted, Intikhab Alam, the Pakistan manager, came in and took it and it was never seen again.

    Ian Taylor, the New Zealand manager, made an official complaint at the end of the match, but it was dismissed with the officials stating that the condition of the ball resulted from a rough outfield and advertising hoardings. "We accepted that Pakistan were the better team," Crowe added, "but we were not going to accept what they were doing with the ball."

    Chris Pringle, at the time New Zealand's opening bowler, decided to take the law into his own hands. "There was something going on," he recalled in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me. "And whether what I did was the right or wrong way to make the ball look as it did in the next Test, I had to try it."

    After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote. "We practised long and hard in the nets and were quite excited about the results we were getting with it." Crowe admitted that he ran in to bowl his normal inswingers "only to see the ball curve the other way ... I'd never bowled outswingers in my life!"

    On the morning of the first day of the final Test at Faisalabad, Pringle decided to put what he had learned into practice. He found an old bottle top, cut it into quarters, covered the serrated edge with tape, leaving a sharp point exposed. At the first drinks interval the umpires did not ask to look at the ball and, with Pakistan making sedate progress, Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52.

    "Neither umpire showed any concern or took any notice in what we were doing even though, at the end of the innings, the ball was very scratched," Pringle noted. "One side was shiny but there were lots of grooves and lines and deep gouges on the other side. It was so obvious. It was ripped to shreds ... one side of the ball had been demolished. The umpires were walking across to each other and talking quite a lot. I sensed that they could tell what was going on ... but they didn't want to get involved in anything controversial."

    However, while the men in white remained implacable, others were wise to what was happening. Pringle recalled that as he left the stadium after taking his seven wickets on the first day, a local dignitary tapped him on the shoulder and said: "Pringle, it is fair now. Both teams are cheating."

    Although the umpires did not check the ball during each session, they did have it during intervals and at the close. And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

    So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches, but his efforts could not prevent New Zealand sliding to another defeat and a series whitewash.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/a...e-hills-259676

    --------------------------------


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Pringle got 7/52 with bottle caps. Even Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were reversing the ball using bottle caps.

    ----------------------------------------------

    One of the most bizarre - and blatant - instances of ball tampering occurred during New Zealand's tour of Pakistan in the autumn of 1990. From the off, New Zealand expressed deep reservations about the way that the Pakistan bowlers got the ball to reverse swing, and the appearance of the ball. Most dismissed this as sour grapes as the tour had been in trouble before it started. Several leading New Zealanders opted out of making the trip, leading to Imran Khan also absenting himself after protesting at what he believed would be a "mismatch". And then when the Pakistan Cricket Board suggested appointing neutral umpires, Martin Crowe, New Zealand's captain, said that it had to be "better than having two Pakistani umpires". Unsurprisingly, the PCB did an about-turn and dropped the plan.

    In the opening Test at Karachi, New Zealand were twice bowled out for under 200 as Pakistan, thanks to 203 from Shoaib Mohammad, won by an innings.

    In the second Test at Lahore, Martin Crowe remembered that he encountered reverse-swing for the first time on his way to a second-innings hundred. "Six supposed outswingers [from Wasim Akram] suddenly became six lethal inswingers. I had never seen it before and I became curious." During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing."

    Later in the day the ball went out of shape and was changed. As it was thrown to the boundary by the umpires, Willie Watson and Mark Priest rushed to intercept it. "It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed. The pair took it back to the changing-room but, so Crowe noted, Intikhab Alam, the Pakistan manager, came in and took it and it was never seen again.

    Ian Taylor, the New Zealand manager, made an official complaint at the end of the match, but it was dismissed with the officials stating that the condition of the ball resulted from a rough outfield and advertising hoardings. "We accepted that Pakistan were the better team," Crowe added, "but we were not going to accept what they were doing with the ball."

    Chris Pringle, at the time New Zealand's opening bowler, decided to take the law into his own hands. "There was something going on," he recalled in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me. "And whether what I did was the right or wrong way to make the ball look as it did in the next Test, I had to try it."

    After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote. "We practised long and hard in the nets and were quite excited about the results we were getting with it." Crowe admitted that he ran in to bowl his normal inswingers "only to see the ball curve the other way ... I'd never bowled outswingers in my life!"

    On the morning of the first day of the final Test at Faisalabad, Pringle decided to put what he had learned into practice. He found an old bottle top, cut it into quarters, covered the serrated edge with tape, leaving a sharp point exposed. At the first drinks interval the umpires did not ask to look at the ball and, with Pakistan making sedate progress, Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52.

    "Neither umpire showed any concern or took any notice in what we were doing even though, at the end of the innings, the ball was very scratched," Pringle noted. "One side was shiny but there were lots of grooves and lines and deep gouges on the other side. It was so obvious. It was ripped to shreds ... one side of the ball had been demolished. The umpires were walking across to each other and talking quite a lot. I sensed that they could tell what was going on ... but they didn't want to get involved in anything controversial."

    However, while the men in white remained implacable, others were wise to what was happening. Pringle recalled that as he left the stadium after taking his seven wickets on the first day, a local dignitary tapped him on the shoulder and said: "Pringle, it is fair now. Both teams are cheating."

    Although the umpires did not check the ball during each session, they did have it during intervals and at the close. And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

    So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches, but his efforts could not prevent New Zealand sliding to another defeat and a series whitewash.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/a...e-hills-259676

    --------------------------------
    The unintended comedy here is HILARIOUS

    Damn man.

    God knows what all happened in the old era.


    Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No he wonít. Probably similar average with a 100+ SR. Basically de Villiersí type numbers.
    Yup, AB de Villiers is the Viv Richards of his era.

  78. #78
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    Starc is an ATG ODI bowler and a great test bowler.

    300+ test wickets at 27-28 are great numbers with pretty balanced home and away performance.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Correct. Thats why Waqar was still a very effective white ball bowler even near the end of his career while he tappered away in tests. With the reverse swing gone in tests he was just a good bowler.

    The crackdown on reverse swing achieved by illegal means has coincided with decline in pakistan's fast bowling.
    Really intriguing. When would you say Waqarís reverse swing vanished in Test cricket? I mean from what point.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Pringle got 7/52 with bottle caps. Even Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were reversing the ball using bottle caps.

    ----------------------------------------------

    One of the most bizarre - and blatant - instances of ball tampering occurred during New Zealand's tour of Pakistan in the autumn of 1990. From the off, New Zealand expressed deep reservations about the way that the Pakistan bowlers got the ball to reverse swing, and the appearance of the ball. Most dismissed this as sour grapes as the tour had been in trouble before it started. Several leading New Zealanders opted out of making the trip, leading to Imran Khan also absenting himself after protesting at what he believed would be a "mismatch". And then when the Pakistan Cricket Board suggested appointing neutral umpires, Martin Crowe, New Zealand's captain, said that it had to be "better than having two Pakistani umpires". Unsurprisingly, the PCB did an about-turn and dropped the plan.

    In the opening Test at Karachi, New Zealand were twice bowled out for under 200 as Pakistan, thanks to 203 from Shoaib Mohammad, won by an innings.

    In the second Test at Lahore, Martin Crowe remembered that he encountered reverse-swing for the first time on his way to a second-innings hundred. "Six supposed outswingers [from Wasim Akram] suddenly became six lethal inswingers. I had never seen it before and I became curious." During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing."

    Later in the day the ball went out of shape and was changed. As it was thrown to the boundary by the umpires, Willie Watson and Mark Priest rushed to intercept it. "It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed. The pair took it back to the changing-room but, so Crowe noted, Intikhab Alam, the Pakistan manager, came in and took it and it was never seen again.

    Ian Taylor, the New Zealand manager, made an official complaint at the end of the match, but it was dismissed with the officials stating that the condition of the ball resulted from a rough outfield and advertising hoardings. "We accepted that Pakistan were the better team," Crowe added, "but we were not going to accept what they were doing with the ball."

    Chris Pringle, at the time New Zealand's opening bowler, decided to take the law into his own hands. "There was something going on," he recalled in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me. "And whether what I did was the right or wrong way to make the ball look as it did in the next Test, I had to try it."

    After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote. "We practised long and hard in the nets and were quite excited about the results we were getting with it." Crowe admitted that he ran in to bowl his normal inswingers "only to see the ball curve the other way ... I'd never bowled outswingers in my life!"

    On the morning of the first day of the final Test at Faisalabad, Pringle decided to put what he had learned into practice. He found an old bottle top, cut it into quarters, covered the serrated edge with tape, leaving a sharp point exposed. At the first drinks interval the umpires did not ask to look at the ball and, with Pakistan making sedate progress, Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52.

    "Neither umpire showed any concern or took any notice in what we were doing even though, at the end of the innings, the ball was very scratched," Pringle noted. "One side was shiny but there were lots of grooves and lines and deep gouges on the other side. It was so obvious. It was ripped to shreds ... one side of the ball had been demolished. The umpires were walking across to each other and talking quite a lot. I sensed that they could tell what was going on ... but they didn't want to get involved in anything controversial."

    However, while the men in white remained implacable, others were wise to what was happening. Pringle recalled that as he left the stadium after taking his seven wickets on the first day, a local dignitary tapped him on the shoulder and said: "Pringle, it is fair now. Both teams are cheating."

    Although the umpires did not check the ball during each session, they did have it during intervals and at the close. And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

    So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches, but his efforts could not prevent New Zealand sliding to another defeat and a series whitewash.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/a...e-hills-259676

    --------------------------------
    The amount of things teams could get away with in those eras was insane.

    Teams have to be a lot more subtle in this day and age to contest every possible inch.

    Just one of the many reasons comparing across eras is an exercise in futility in my opinion.
    Last edited by sweep_shot; 20th January 2021 at 07:15.


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