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  1. #1
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    Indian pace attack for the coming series in England

    So, after this Indian series we can be pretty sure England is going to hit us with green tops or at least plenty of damp wickets when we visit England in a few months time. Regarding the England series, there's something I've been thinking about ever since the Australian series got over. A full strength Indian pace attack for all conditions would line up something like:

    Bumrah, Shami and Ishant.

    This might be controversial but I think we shouldn't start with Shami in England.

    Australia did something out of the ordinary and dropped Starc from their playing XI for the opening match of the Ashes in 2019 as he's not really someone suited to English conditions and picked Pattinson and Siddle instead as they were more suited to the conditions in England having played county cricket. I think England is one place where you need bowlers specifically suited to those conditions with a specific set of skills -

    A) Bowlers who present the seam position well

    B) Bowlers who are accurate and

    C) Bowlers who can naturally swing the ball bowling full.

    I think Shami ticks the first two boxes, he indeed has the best seam presentation among every quick in world cricket and is pretty accurate too. What's his draw back is that he is someone whose natural length is the short of good length area and hits the deck, which is a skill you need in Australia but not in England. It's why Shami often beats the bat of batsmen in English conditions but doesn't pick as many wickets. Shami's worst average across the entire world is in England, averaging 47 with the ball there after 8 tests. I doubt he's suddenly going to start bowling fuller in the coming tour to England which isn't his natural length.

    In English conditions, you need bowlers who are highly accurate, can pitch the ball up and swing the Duke ball. Basically you need kiss the surface fuller length pacers than hit the deck short of good length pacers. To select our seam attack in England, it's important to differentiate what kind of bowlers our pacers are:

    Our best swing bowlers (in order of quality) are:

    1. Bhuvneshwar Kumar (can move the ball both ways)

    2. Ishant Sharma (doesn't have an outswinger, can at best straighten the ball but probably has the best inswinger in world cricket atm)

    3. Mohammad Siraj (I've seen him moving the ball both ways and ran through a side in the IPL once using high quality swing bowling)

    4. Shardul Thakur (has a good outswinger but like Shami, bowls slightly short).

    5. Umesh Yadav (has a decent outswinger but his accuracy is low and therefore will be a liability if he starts in England).

    Bumrah and Shami - Seam bowlers.

    I think we should have two conventional swing bowlers and one hit the deck seam bowler (in case the conditions become flat and little swing is available). You don't want 3 kiss the surface swing bowlers bowling on a road at the Oval for example. Only one seam bowler means only Bumrah can make the team. If all our pacers are fit, I would start with an attack of

    Bhuvi, Ishant and Bumrah at Trent Bridge.

    Bhuvi is not just the best swing bowler in India, him playing in the XI would mean not all our pacers are number 11s with the bat, which is usually the case with our team and increase the strength of our lower order. But knowing glass body Bhuvi, I'm pretty sure he's going to play the IPL and get injured after 4-5 matches once again and put himself out of the series in England. So if Bhuvi isn't fit (which is very likely), India shouldn't hesitate to start with an attack of:

    Ishant, Siraj and Bumrah

    I have high hopes from Siraj and I don't think he'll bowl too short like Shami often does. I get the feeling he will enjoy the Duke ball and I hope to see him playing in the XI atleast in 2 tests in England, especially in venues that traditionally favour conventional swing bowling.
    Last edited by street cricketer; 26th February 2021 at 22:36.

  2. #2
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    Good post. Makes complete sense for me.

    Bumrah, Bhuvi, Ishant and Siraj are the four pacers to go with.

    Shardul should also be in scheme of things. Ashwin, Jadeja and Pandya will obviously be there.

  3. #3
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    I think we should start with a line up of:

    Gill
    Rohit (I know but no other choice lol)
    Pujara
    Kohli (c)
    Rahane
    Pant (wk)
    Jadeja
    Ashwin
    Bhuvi (Siraj if not fit)
    Ishant
    Bumrah

    Bench: Mayank, Vihari, Pandya, Shami, Thakur.

    Yes, I think we should start with Ash and Jaddu together regardless of where we play unless we play on a real green top which makes the 2nd spinner redundant, in which case, Pandya should come in for one of the spinners. Would prefer Jadeja as he seems to be in the form of his life with the bat in the last few years.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    I think we should start with a line up of:

    Gill
    Rohit (I know but no other choice lol)
    Pujara
    Kohli (c)
    Rahane
    Pant (wk)
    Jadeja
    Ashwin
    Bhuvi (Siraj if not fit)
    Ishant
    Bumrah

    Bench: Mayank, Vihari, Pandya, Shami, Thakur.

    Yes, I think we should start with Ash and Jaddu together regardless of where we play unless we play on a real green top which makes the 2nd spinner redundant, in which case, Pandya should come in for one of the spinners. Would prefer Jadeja as he seems to be in the form of his life with the bat in the last few years.
    I don't think Bhuvi can ball long spells after injury . nowadays his swing also gone

  5. #5
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    My pick for tests

    Gill
    Shaw (I prefer to push Rohit to #5)
    Pujara
    Kohli (c)
    Rohit (Sorry, I cannot stand Rahane.)
    Pant (wk)
    Jadeja
    Ashwin
    Siraj (What a find he has been. He is must for the team and I will shamelessly support a fellow Hyderabadi brother. High time one of hyderabad's son is in the national team)
    Thakur (I would prefer Thakur in place of Ishant, especially after the banana swing he extracted in gabba)
    Bumrah

    Bench: Ishanth, Washy and other marsh mellows
    Last edited by Rahul2020; 26th February 2021 at 23:12.

  6. #6
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    I don't know how much longer Rahane will be in the side, this string of low scores after the Melb 100 is concerning. If he fails in the first 2 tests, then I say drop him and bring in Wash to replace him, Wash will give more stability as he can bowl as well.


    "You want Philly, Philly ? " Nicholas Edward Foles

  7. #7
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    If Bhuvi is fit he will definitely play a role in this series.

  8. #8
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    Bumrah
    Siraj
    Shami
    Ishant
    Yadav

    It’s a 5 test match series, that too after 2 months IPL and WTC finals. So, in summer we will play 6 match(weather and covid permitting, ofc if we make it)in spam of 8-9 weeks. I can bet my bottom dollar that we are going to see ton of bowlers breaking down like Aus series. I would do like England are doing right now, rotate bowlers and give them ample rest.

    Bumrah/Siraj/Ishant for first test
    Bumrah/Siraj/Shami for 2nd test

    Shami/Ishant/Bhuvi or Yadav for 3rd test

    And so on. Of course we might just play our first choice seamers until they are start breaking down. Five(six if we make it to Finals) in bio-bubble will take a huge toll on mental strength of the players.

  9. #9
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    You are right. However, I would play Siraj before Bhuvi. Seamers that hit the deck with good seam presentation are even more effective in England than swing bowlers. They can maintain pressure all day.


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  10. #10
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    Depending on fitness.. We already know..

    Ishant/Shami/Bumrah first choice

    then Yadav/Siraj

    Then Thakur/Natarajan.

    Baby daemon Tyagi on standby.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Bumrah
    Siraj
    Shami
    Ishant
    Yadav

    It’s a 5 test match series, that too after 2 months IPL and WTC finals. So, in summer we will play 6 match(weather and covid permitting, ofc if we make it)in spam of 8-9 weeks. I can bet my bottom dollar that we are going to see ton of bowlers breaking down like Aus series. I would do like England are doing right now, rotate bowlers and give them ample rest.

    Bumrah/Siraj/Ishant for first test
    Bumrah/Siraj/Shami for 2nd test

    Shami/Ishant/Bhuvi or Yadav for 3rd test

    And so on. Of course we might just play our first choice seamers until they are start breaking down. Five(six if we make it to Finals) in bio-bubble will take a huge toll on mental strength of the players.
    Yeah, there is no way first-choice bowlers will last 6 tests in quick succession in normal times let alone with the covid situation.


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  12. #12
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    Quite logical.
    Bhuvi also adds some depth in batting and in english conditions he is as good a bowler as anyone else from our team

    Shami has a horrendous record in england, his bowling is not suited for those conditions.

    Also we should definitely play both of Jaddu and Ashwin from now onwards in every away match. They have improved their bowling in away conditions.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    So, after this Indian series we can be pretty sure England is going to hit us with green tops or at least plenty of damp wickets
    Well, that rather depends on the weather.

    In 2018 it was overcast and rainy for much of the summer, so there was a lot of orthodox swing and movement off the damp wickets.

    In 2019 it was drier and sunnier so there was less orthodox swing and the wickets were less green as the sun shone on the grasss, hence less seam movement,

    N 2020 it was more of a mixed bag.

  14. #14
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    I will pick Shami ishant bumrah as my start line for any match in any continent

    Add a shardul / pandya as fourth bowing allrounder

    Your reasoning on length is actually based on assumption that he does not know where to bowl . In actuality , he is highly intelligent and has matured faster than Ishant . Skill wise , he has ability to seam , swing , bounce and reverse at high pace .

    Siraj is a useful thinking bowler who will be my 5th bowling backup

    Kumar - he is unfit on most days and I would take him as a net bowler

    Saini is perhaps somebody we should consider for england - his full length at pace with swing will be an awesome sight -

    Finally , shardul is much underrated and if anybody it should be shardul in seaming conditions who can be our third bowler over Shami only cause him at no 7 with ashwin and Jadeja as our spinners can be an all weather attack . But bowling alone , I will pick Shami / Ishant / bumrah on all surfaces as top 3

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul2020 View Post
    My pick for tests

    Gill
    Shaw (I prefer to push Rohit to #5)
    Pujara
    Kohli (c)
    Rohit (Sorry, I cannot stand Rahane.)
    Pant (wk)
    Jadeja
    Ashwin
    Siraj (What a find he has been. He is must for the team and I will shamelessly support a fellow Hyderabadi brother. High time one of hyderabad's son is in the national team)
    Thakur (I would prefer Thakur in place of Ishant, especially after the banana swing he extracted in gabba)
    Bumrah

    Bench: Ishanth, Washy and other marsh mellows
    I think Thakur can be a good utility player in England, but only if the first choice pacers are injured. No way Ishant sits on the bench while being fit. He was our best bowler by a mile in England last time around and he tormented Cook with the outswinger and Root with the inswinger, he had both batsmen on a leash till the road at the Oval in the last match. Root is generally vulnerable to the incoming delivery anyway and Cummins set Root up in the last Ashes with the incoming delivery.

    Ishant is as good as Ashwin against the left handers and his only draw back is that he cannot move the ball away from the right handed batsman. He is also one of our most accurate bowlers after his stint with Gillespie in county cricket. Ishant is going to be one of our trump cards with the Duke ball if we have to win the series.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    You are right. However, I would play Siraj before Bhuvi. Seamers that hit the deck with good seam presentation are even more effective in England than swing bowlers. They can maintain pressure all day.
    Yeah Cummins was immense during the last Ashes and I've been following Siraj's performances in the India A tours to England in the past where he has done well. Siraj is also a tad quicker on average pace than Bhuvi, so that goes in his advantage. Kumar will probably not be fit anyway. So an attack of Ishant, Siraj and Bumrah will be a very good attack for English conditions.

  17. #17
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    Pre mature thread. Let our players enjoy themselves in IPL first and let's see how many remain available to represent India in England. Bumrah getting injured before last England tour and Ishant getting injured before Australia tour in IPL are good enough examples to support my claim.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, that rather depends on the weather.

    In 2018 it was overcast and rainy for much of the summer, so there was a lot of orthodox swing and movement off the damp wickets.

    In 2019 it was drier and sunnier so there was less orthodox swing and the wickets were less green as the sun shone on the grasss, hence less seam movement,

    N 2020 it was more of a mixed bag.
    If I remember correctly, England was going through an unprecedented heat wave during that summer and people were expecting spin to play a huge role that series.

    The curators probably watered the wicket on the higher side to compensate for the heat wave I think which resulted in a lot of seam movement and the 2018 edition of Duke balls were a bit different from the previous editions in that they were swinging much better and far longer. England can always produce damp wickets irrespective of the climate, you just need to water the wicket on the higher side.

  19. #19
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    Bumrah
    Ishant
    Yadav
    Shami
    Thakur

    Wont be holding breath for Bhuvi.Most likely will be injured

    Would also play 2 spinners


    The only disability in life is a bad attitude. -Scott Hamilton

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaag Viru Bhaag View Post
    Pre mature thread. Let our players enjoy themselves in IPL first and let's see how many remain available to represent India in England. Bumrah getting injured before last England tour and Ishant getting injured before Australia tour in IPL are good enough examples to support my claim.
    Hmm..

    And also Bhuvi showing up only in IPL and then getting injured whole year for almost 2-3 consecutive years now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Romali_rotti View Post
    I don't know how much longer Rahane will be in the side, this string of low scores after the Melb 100 is concerning. If he fails in the first 2 tests, then I say drop him and bring in Wash to replace him, Wash will give more stability as he can bowl as well.
    Scored 60 in last Test

    Overall has been our highest scorer in WTC,much ahead of overrated Pujara and even Kohli

    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ype=tournament

    Ofcourse doesnt get hyped by media


    The only disability in life is a bad attitude. -Scott Hamilton

  22. #22
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    Wickets in England have generally been a lot flatter post new drainage systems, while we haven’t always been able to explain it scientifically; extensive lateral movement had been caused by the weather conditions opposed to the wicket and also the skill of the seamers to exploit those conditions, generally April/May time it tends to rain a bit and you get the typical overcast conditions. The Test series starts in August so India can expect more favourable conditions for Batting, I wouldn’t change too much they already have Bowlers who are capable of doing well here on tour.

  23. #23
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    Seaming pitches and that particular dark red Dukes ball await India. Jus like last time, when batting conditions were the toughest they had been for quite some time


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    If I remember correctly, England was going through an unprecedented heat wave during that summer and people were expecting spin to play a huge role that series.

    The curators probably watered the wicket on the higher side to compensate for the heat wave I think which resulted in a lot of seam movement and the 2018 edition of Duke balls were a bit different from the previous editions in that they were swinging much better and far longer. England can always produce damp wickets irrespective of the climate, you just need to water the wicket on the higher side.
    IIRC the first test was played at Nottingham on a horrid crusty surface with no pace, bounce, seam, spin, anything. ECB may have suggested to Mick Hunt that he leaves the grass on so that the Lord’s test might result in a win for one side or the other instead of a high scoring bore draw. But the grass was dead on day two resulting in a road.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Seaming pitches and that particular dark red Dukes ball await India. Jus like last time, when batting conditions were the toughest they had been for quite some time
    It was Moeen that sealed our fate with 21 wickets. Infact he was instrumental in winning 2 series with his bowling.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Seaming pitches and that particular dark red Dukes ball await India. Jus like last time, when batting conditions were the toughest they had been for quite some time
    Due to the weather.

    Of course there will be a couple of seaming pitches, it’s in England.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by docteurmanish View Post
    I will pick Shami ishant bumrah as my start line for any match in any continent

    Add a shardul / pandya as fourth bowing allrounder

    Your reasoning on length is actually based on assumption that he does not know where to bowl . In actuality , he is highly intelligent and has matured faster than Ishant . Skill wise , he has ability to seam , swing , bounce and reverse at high pace .

    Siraj is a useful thinking bowler who will be my 5th bowling backup

    Kumar - he is unfit on most days and I would take him as a net bowler

    Saini is perhaps somebody we should consider for england - his full length at pace with swing will be an awesome sight -

    Finally , shardul is much underrated and if anybody it should be shardul in seaming conditions who can be our third bowler over Shami only cause him at no 7 with ashwin and Jadeja as our spinners can be an all weather attack . But bowling alone , I will pick Shami / Ishant / bumrah on all surfaces as top 3
    I agree about Shardul, he is underrated. Took 7 out of the 20 Aussie wickets in Gabba and also scored 64 in the first innings. Excellent performance.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Due to the weather.

    Of course there will be a couple of seaming pitches, it’s in England.
    Oh yeah sure. Because English weather consistently helped produce seaming pitches for a few years together and previously didnt affect the pitches as much .


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    IIRC the first test was played at Nottingham on a horrid crusty surface with no pace, bounce, seam, spin, anything. ECB may have suggested to Mick Hunt that he leaves the grass on so that the Lord’s test might result in a win for one side or the other instead of a high scoring bore draw. But the grass was dead on day two resulting in a road.
    I think you're talking about the 2014 series, I'm talking about the 2018 series.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Wickets in England have generally been a lot flatter post new drainage systems, while we haven’t always been able to explain it scientifically; extensive lateral movement had been caused by the weather conditions opposed to the wicket and also the skill of the seamers to exploit those conditions, generally April/May time it tends to rain a bit and you get the typical overcast conditions. The Test series starts in August so India can expect more favourable conditions for Batting, I wouldn’t change too much they already have Bowlers who are capable of doing well here on tour.
    India toured England during August in 2018 as well and the overwhelming talk in the media was how England was going through an unprecedented heat wave and how we can expect dry wickets and spinners to play a huge role in the series. The complete opposite happened however once the series started and that series had the lowest average scores since the 1960s or something.

    India have got bowling friendly conditions during the last two tours and I doubt this time is going to be anything different as Indian batsmen have a particular weakness against the moving ball and England would be naive not to exploit it to their advantage.

  31. #31
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    Not sure about others but I'll be fed up of seeing the same Roots, Stokes' and the Andersons by the Oval Test.

    Whose bright idea was it to schedule 9 Tests in a row against the same team?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Oh yeah sure. Because English weather consistently helped produce seaming pitches for a few years together and previously didnt affect the pitches as much .
    Yeah, that’s about right. Have you ever been to the UK? One year it will be rainy and overcast and cool - 2018 a good example - and another hot for months - 1976 and 1995 being examples, with not just wickets but outfields brown and dead. We have no idea what is coming up the Gulf Stream or down from the North Pole. We cop the tail ends of hurricanes hitting the USA sometimes.

    I can tell you what the wickets will be like - Lord’s, Nottingham and Edgbaston will be slow seamers, Leeds a shirt front, with Manchester and Oval a bit harder early on and taking spin later on. Depending on the weather there will be a bit less swing and seam, or a bit more. In May and June the morning sessions will see more swing. In the late summer, the ball will start to swing around in the dew in the last hour. There will be a chance of reverse on the drier outfields.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    I think you're talking about the 2014 series, I'm talking about the 2018 series.

    2018 didn’t see an “unprecedented heat wave” in the UK, it was miserable and rainy mostly.

    If we get a decent summer I think India could do well, if their quicks are fit. But Crawley, Root and Stokes might clobber them.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    2018 didn’t see an “unprecedented heat wave” in the UK, it was miserable and rainy mostly.

    If we get a decent summer I think India could do well, if their quicks are fit. But Crawley, Root and Stokes might clobber them.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45399134

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...et-office-says

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yeah, that’s about right. Have you ever been to the UK? One year it will be rainy and overcast and cool - 2018 a good example - and another hot for months - 1976 and 1995 being examples, with not just wickets but outfields brown and dead. We have no idea what is coming up the Gulf Stream or down from the North Pole. We cop the tail ends of hurricanes hitting the USA sometimes.

    I can tell you what the wickets will be like - Lord’s, Nottingham and Edgbaston will be slow seamers, Leeds a shirt front, with Manchester and Oval a bit harder early on and taking spin later on. Depending on the weather there will be a bit less swing and seam, or a bit more. In May and June the morning sessions will see more swing. In the late summer, the ball will start to swing around in the dew in the last hour. There will be a chance of reverse on the drier outfields.
    And you'd be right right about wearing being one factor. But it is only 1 factor. I have been to the UK. But that's besides the point. England have deliberately prepared pitches to support Jimmy and Broad in recent years and everyone from Vaughan, Boycs to Atherton has acknowledged this.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  36. #36
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    Oh dear. Dont question such narratives with facts, Streety. You have English experts, Cricviz data all showing that wickets have consistently seamed a lot more in recent years and they were consistently flatter in the 2006-14 period but Robert's narrative would have us believe that weather consistently produced flatter wickets in that period and now the weather consistently produces seam-friendly wickets. Very convenient English "weather" .


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  37. #37
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    Good analysis
    Ishant, Siraj and Bumrah are main bowlers.

    Rohit/Mayank
    Gill
    Pujara
    Kohli
    Rahane
    Pant
    Jadeja/Pandya/Vihari
    Ashwin
    Ishant
    Siraj
    Bumrah


    Virat, ABD, KP and Sir Viv.
    RCB Forever.#ನಮ್ಮRCB

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Oh dear. Dont question such narratives with facts, Streety. You have English experts, Cricviz data all showing that wickets have consistently seamed a lot more in recent years and they were consistently flatter in the 2006-14 period but Robert's narrative would have us believe that weather consistently produced flatter wickets in that period and now the weather consistently produces seam-friendly wickets. Very convenient English "weather" .
    Lol, the one consistent narrative that I've seen from Rob from the day I joined the forum till present is that the England never use their conditions to their advantage and that the counties are too powerful against the ECB to let pitch doctoring happen.

    To be fair, the ECB is so powerless that even the batch of Duke balls they use for a season doesn't get sanctioned without the approval of Broad and Anderson!

    https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket...23-p520dk.html

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    And you'd be right right about wearing being one factor. But it is only 1 factor. I have been to the UK. But that's besides the point. England have deliberately prepared pitches to support Jimmy and Broad in recent years and everyone from Vaughan, Boycs to Atherton has acknowledged this.

    It's not beside the point, it is the entirety of the point. You don't know how the conditions affect the wickets because you don't live here and see the weather change and the tracks change with it.

    Mick Hunt might have left the grass on the Lord's wicket once in 2014. That's about the limit of what he could do for the England team. His brief was to make a wicket that holds up for five days and gives batters and bowlersd an even chance.

    Do you mean the ECB? Vaughan, Boycott and Atherton are not the ECB, they are journalists. They express opinions.

  40. #40
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    OK, so June and July were hot when WI were here.

    The India test series was played in August and September. It rained a lot. I was here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...ngland_in_2018

    Second test day one lost to rain. Second test day two called off early due to rain and bad light. That's why India got skittled - swinging balls in the overcast murk. So much for the blazing summer.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Oh dear. Dont question such narratives with facts, Streety.
    Not facts.

    You have English experts, Cricviz data all showing that wickets have consistently seamed a lot more in recent years and they were consistently flatter in the 2006-14 period but Robert's narrative would have us believe that weather consistently produced flatter wickets in that period and now the weather consistently produces seam-friendly wickets. Very convenient English "weather" .
    Please don't make up things I am supposed to have said. I didn't say that did I? Rollers flatten the wicket. Weather can't flatten the wickets. It makes the ball swing or not swing, or it kills the grass or grows it.



    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Lol, the one consistent narrative that I've seen from Rob from the day I joined the forum till present is that the England never use their conditions to their advantage and that the counties are too powerful against the ECB to let pitch doctoring happen.

    To be fair, the ECB is so powerless that even the batch of Duke balls they use for a season doesn't get sanctioned without the approval of Broad and Anderson!

    https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket...23-p520dk.html
    If you read that article you will see that the ball was not seaming much in 2018 - Broad said so. That is how Shae Hope got two centuries in a sunny test and rendered A&B ineffective. So what if the ball used in the Ashes in 2019 was a bit harder? Australia had Cummins. If it is a bit harder in the English summer this year, India have Bumrah. There's no home advantage to this, it will make for wins instead or bore draws.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    OK, so June and July were hot when WI were here.

    The India test series was played in August and September. It rained a lot. I was here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...ngland_in_2018

    Second test day one lost to rain. Second test day two called off early due to rain and bad light. That's why India got skittled - swinging balls in the overcast murk. So much for the blazing summer.
    India didn't lose at the Lords due to the swinging ball, there was swing but the exaggerated seam movement due to damp wickets were the killer. I've already posted even the CricViz link.



    This is what Scyld Berry had to write on the Lord's match:

    “Not only was the swing more extreme than at Edgbaston but the seam movement was occasionally such, when the ball bit into the damp turf, that it could have been one of Adil Rashid’s leg breaks souped up to mid-80s mph.”
    So it was not as if India collapsed due to the swinging ball created by the atmospheric conditions, swing was there yes, but what made the conditions unplayable for the Indians was facing three highly accurate seamers on a very damp wicket that produced exaggerated seam movement.

    Atmospheric conditions do play a major role in the batting conditions in England and it would be silly even to ignore the impact of the overhead conditions on the amount of swing that's available during the match. But England simply do not rely on the atmospheric conditions alone which is unpredictable. They do make a concerted effort to produce damp wickets, atleast against subcontinental teams particularly India whose batsmen have shown a vulnerability on seaming wickets in the past. All they have to do is just water the wicket a bit more than what's required to retain the moisture in the wicket to allow for seam movement to happen.

    Take a look at the events that happened prior to the first test at Edgbaston during that series for example. India had to cut short one day from their 4 day practice game at Chelmsford due to the state of the outfield which was barren and parched, which the Indian management felt might result in injuries. This was the state of the outfield btw:

    Name:  images (4).jpg
Views: 269
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    The Essex county blamed the condition of the barren outfield to the heat wave that was happening in Britain at that time. So everyone was indeed expecting a dry wicket at Edgbaston given the heat wave. Guess what happened. The Egbaston curator Gary Barwell just pumped in litres and litres of water into the outfield and pitch to make it damp so that it doesn't crack due to the moisture content in it. This is what Mr. Barwell had to say after the match on being asked how he produced a wicket that led to such an interesting match. This was his reply:

    “Water, water, water. When you think you have enough water, water it again.” Gary Barwell, the head groundsman of Edgbaston and the real hero of this fascinating Test match, recalls what a mentor once told him. Considering all that fussy foreplay that played out before this game, about the heatwave being the harshest since the 1970s, it was surprising to see how well the pitch played out. It all came down to water in the end.

    “I don’t know what the water bill is!” Barwell says with a laugh, an hour after England’s triumph.

    B]“We have a river running nearby from where we can always take,” Neil says. [/B]Barwell doesn’t mention the river but talks about how rainwater and the regular water that’s provided to the ground is carefully stored in big tanks all along the ground. It then is fed into the pits that run around the arena, from where a hose-like thing pops up and sprays water. “This is different from normal sprinklers. These can pump in 47,000 litres of water in 35 minutes.”

    Barwell and his men have pumped in 150,000 litres of water in a week for sometime now. “Moisture is the key here. Else, the pitch can crack up.” It’s a sand-based ground and water is its oxygen. “If you dig up to four inches, you will hit sand. We have been pumping water to keep this colour,” Barwell says. For weeks now, the little pop-ups from under the outfield and the sprinklers have been drenching the outfield. “If the outfield dries, the moisture would escape from the pitch. It literally cracks and it gets virtually uncontrollable.” All hell would break loose then.
    I see no reason why the English curators won't make a concerted effort to produce damp wickets this time around as well especially given what has transpired in this series, and when they already have a track record of doing this before. All they have to do is turn on the water sprinklers.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Lol, the one consistent narrative that I've seen from Rob from the day I joined the forum till present is that the England never use their conditions to their advantage and that the counties are too powerful against the ECB to let pitch doctoring happen.

    To be fair, the ECB is so powerless that even the batch of Duke balls they use for a season doesn't get sanctioned without the approval of Broad and Anderson!

    https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket...23-p520dk.html
    There is enough Cricviz data to show that English wickets have been consistently providing more seam movement in the last few years compared to previous years. But sure, weather is at fault. All the data analytics about pitches is wrong. We dont know that because we don't live there but @Robert knows better because he lives there. With due respect @Robert you living there doesnt make you an authority on pitches and how they behave when as @street cricketer showed the pitches have seamrd a lot more in recent times.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    India didn't lose at the Lords due to the swinging ball, there was swing but the exaggerated seam movement due to damp wickets were the killer. I've already posted even the CricViz link.



    This is what Scyld Berry had to write on the Lord's match:



    So it was not as if India collapsed due to the swinging ball created by the atmospheric conditions, swing was there yes, but what made the conditions unplayable for the Indians was facing three highly accurate seamers on a very damp wicket that produced exaggerated seam movement.

    Atmospheric conditions do play a major role in the batting conditions in England and it would be silly even to ignore the impact of the overhead conditions on the amount of swing that's available during the match. But England simply do not rely on the atmospheric conditions alone which is unpredictable. They do make a concerted effort to produce damp wickets, atleast against subcontinental teams particularly India whose batsmen have shown a vulnerability on seaming wickets in the past. All they have to do is just water the wicket a bit more than what's required to retain the moisture in the wicket to allow for seam movement to happen.

    Take a look at the events that happened prior to the first test at Edgbaston during that series for example. India had to cut short one day from their 4 day practice game at Chelmsford due to the state of the outfield which was barren and parched, which the Indian management felt might result in injuries. This was the state of the outfield btw:

    Name:  images (4).jpg
Views: 269
Size:  54.7 KB

    The Essex county blamed the condition of the barren outfield to the heat wave that was happening in Britain at that time. So everyone was indeed expecting a dry wicket at Edgbaston given the heat wave. Guess what happened. The Egbaston curator Gary Barwell just pumped in litres and litres of water into the outfield and pitch to make it damp so that it doesn't crack due to the moisture content in it. This is what Mr. Barwell had to say after the match on being asked how he produced a wicket that led to such an interesting match. This was his reply:



    I see no reason why the English curators won't make a concerted effort to produce damp wickets this time around as well especially given what has transpired in this series, and when they already have a track record of doing this before. All they have to do is turn on the water sprinklers.
    That tells me the WCCC groundsman did his job, trying to make the wicket last so could be a tight and thrilling test match over five days instead of a two-day money-loser. Both sides got over 270 in the first innings (Kohli got 149) so there was nothing wrong with the wicket. It just so happened that the clouds marched in bringing rain, and the wicket didn’t dry out as much as expected.

    Ashwin got seven wickets in the match so there was something for the spinners, and Ishant took five for fifty in the second innings. Why didn’t India win against this England team including five journeymen. They are supposed to have super fast bowlers.

    And as I have said many times, Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid etc. got hundreds on this type of surface.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    There is enough Cricviz data to show that English wickets have been consistently providing more seam movement in the last few years compared to previous years. But sure, weather is at fault. All the data analytics about pitches is wrong. We dont know that because we don't live there but @Robert knows better because he lives there. With due respect @Robert you living there doesnt make you an authority on pitches and how they behave when as @street cricketer showed the pitches have seamrd a lot more in recent times.
    It makes me more of an authority on the British weather than someone who doesn’t live here. Global warming has changed the climate. We don’t have four seasons like we used to. We have a long mild damp cold season and then a long damp warm season.

    As for pitches changing - Headingley used to be a horror track, with radical seam movement and variable bounce in addiction to usually being a big swing ground due to the Northern skies. Now it’s a shirt front.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    That tells me the WCCC groundsman did his job, trying to make the wicket last so could be a tight and thrilling test match over five days instead of a two-day money-loser. Both sides got over 270 in the first innings (Kohli got 149) so there was nothing wrong with the wicket. It just so happened that the clouds marched in bringing rain, and the wicket didn’t dry out as much as expected.

    Ashwin got seven wickets in the match so there was something for the spinners, and Ishant took five for fifty in the second innings. Why didn’t India win against this England team including five journeymen. They are supposed to have super fast bowlers.

    And as I have said many times, Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid etc. got hundreds on this type of surface.
    I'm hardly arguing India's case in England here. I'm just saying England tailor their conditions to their advantage as any other side in world cricket.

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    Mohammad Siraj is one of the few gems to emerge from the Indian pace bowling factory. H has good control, a nice inswinger and decent pace. He would bowl really well in tandem with Mohammad Shami, which, as an aside, will also help fix India's image in the world.

    The "GOAT spin-bowling all-rounder" is surely good enough to bat at #7. This will allow India to play a pace attack of:

    - Mohammad Shami
    - Mohammad Siraj
    - Jasprit Bumrah
    - Ishant Sharma

    Now obviously this would only work for a couple of the most important game. The pacers will need to be rotated over the five test matches, so hopefully for India, they have a couple of decent backup pacers as well.


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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Mohammad Siraj is one of the few gems to emerge from the Indian pace bowling factory. H has good control, a nice inswinger and decent pace. He would bowl really well in tandem with Mohammad Shami, which, as an aside, will also help fix India's image in the world.

    The "GOAT spin-bowling all-rounder" is surely good enough to bat at #7. This will allow India to play a pace attack of:

    - Mohammad Shami
    - Mohammad Siraj
    - Jasprit Bumrah
    - Ishant Sharma

    Now obviously this would only work for a couple of the most important game. The pacers will need to be rotated over the five test matches, so hopefully for India, they have a couple of decent backup pacers as well.
    And it would leave India with a longer tail than a lizard. Can't have tailenders from no.8. Definitely need an all rounder there, whether seam (Pandya) or spin bowling one (Jadeja).

    P.S.: Picking muslims in the Indian team won't do much to improve India's image on islamophobia. Treating them better in the country would help though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    And it would leave India with a longer tail than a lizard. Can't have tailenders from no.8. Definitely need an all rounder there, whether seam (Pandya) or spin bowling one (Jadeja).

    P.S.: Picking muslims in the Indian team won't do much to improve India's image on islamophobia. Treating them better in the country would help though.
    Depends. If the batsmen are in form, this lineup could work. What ends up happening too often with England is that the frontline pacers make inroads but the middle and lower middle end up getting settled because of the second string bowlers bowling. On the flatter roads like the Oval, you certainly need five proper bowling options go bowl out the home side.

    I agree but every little bit helps. However, let's not derail the thread.


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