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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    He must have been rubbish to get spanked by Indian jobbers from that time, there probably isn't anything more humiliating to get battered by minnow level opposition, I think he is quiet over rated and can't help other bowlers either which shows his poor bowling IQ to
    Yea, minnow level opposition that holds a record of 7-0 against Pak in WC matches. Or are you speaking of minnow level Australia against whom he has such a phantastic record?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn't arrived yet: Viv Richards

  2. #82
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    Wasim Akram was the man, the best bowler produced by Pakistan. Closely (I repeat, v. closely) by the great Imran Khan.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn't arrived yet: Viv Richards

  3. #83
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    Lol, I’m glad this thread has been finally created because over the last 2 years I’ve seen Pak fans themselves turn on Waqar in huge numbers as a player, though I feel like the animosity leaked over through their reservations about him as a coach, so that might be clouding their judgement.

    Indians as usual have clouded judgement of what makes a good fast bowler, so no surprises there.

    Yet most English, Aussie, South African, WI or NZ followers of cricket will still agree he was top class and an ATG. There may have been tampering but I doubt it would turn a ball sprayer into a lethal weapon.

    Same people who say Waqar didn’t perform vs the greatest Australian team that ever played now hype their Indian batsmen as GOAT or ATG for scoring some runs on the concrete roads of watered down current Australia lead by a specialist captain and average keeper... lol, thinking it holds the same weight as performing vs 90s-2000s Aus.

    So yeah I think hating on Waqar these days seems to be the flavor of the month for PP, most of these guys never watched him and are jumping on the bandwagon after being bored indoors due to quarantine. Go watch Sachin’s scintillating 100 vs Bangladesh in Asia Cup 2012 to lift the mood maybe.

  4. #84
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    A pot should not call kettle black. Muhammad Asif himself used to temper the ball. From Shahryar Kha's book :-

    "For instance, in England, I was informed that Mohammad Asif who had been playing for Leicestershire had taught his colleagues how to scuff the ball unnoticed by umpires – a rumour that had spread like wildfire on the county circuit."

  5. #85
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    Asif going to get even with the PCB and Pakistani Cricketers with these sort of ethnic and controversial comments. He can certainly redeem himself and give a lot back to our cricket by coaching at the NCA and younger players but doubt he would want to work for a pittance.

  6. #86
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    Atleast Waqar didnt fix matches like Asif.

    Waqar was an amazing swing bowler and ended his career with numbers that most bowlers today can only dream of. Although IMO he was less skilled than Asif.

    Pakistani top 10 fast bowlers on pure skill:

    Imran
    Wasim
    Asif
    Shoaib
    Fazal
    Waqar
    Sarfaraz
    Amir
    Aqib
    Gul

    Abbas, Hasan Ali and Shaheen can be additions to the list in future. Shaheen can end up at 5-6 in the list if he plays his cards right.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MesonK View Post
    Atleast Waqar didnt fix matches like Asif.

    Waqar was an amazing swing bowler and ended his career with numbers that most bowlers today can only dream of. Although IMO he was less skilled than Asif.

    Pakistani top 10 fast bowlers on pure skill:

    Imran
    Wasim
    Asif
    Shoaib
    Fazal
    Waqar
    Sarfaraz
    Amir
    Aqib
    Gul

    Abbas, Hasan Ali and Shaheen can be additions to the list in future. Shaheen can end up at 5-6 in the list if he plays his cards right.
    I forgot to add razzler in the list. He easily comes at 11th in the list.

  8. #88
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    Okay so Waqar tampered the ball, but that same ball was used by Wasim too, wasn't it?
    Just a point of view.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suleiman View Post
    Lol, I’m glad this thread has been finally created because over the last 2 years I’ve seen Pak fans themselves turn on Waqar in huge numbers as a player, though I feel like the animosity leaked over through their reservations about him as a coach, so that might be clouding their judgement.

    Indians as usual have clouded judgement of what makes a good fast bowler, so no surprises there.

    Yet most English, Aussie, South African, WI or NZ followers of cricket will still agree he was top class and an ATG. There may have been tampering but I doubt it would turn a ball sprayer into a lethal weapon.

    Same people who say Waqar didn’t perform vs the greatest Australian team that ever played now hype their Indian batsmen as GOAT or ATG for scoring some runs on the concrete roads of watered down current Australia lead by a specialist captain and average keeper... lol, thinking it holds the same weight as performing vs 90s-2000s Aus.

    So yeah I think hating on Waqar these days seems to be the flavor of the month for PP, most of these guys never watched him and are jumping on the bandwagon after being bored indoors due to quarantine. Go watch Sachin’s scintillating 100 vs Bangladesh in Asia Cup 2012 to lift the mood maybe.
    Hate against Waqar among pakistani fans usually stem from his coaching. Most of the PP crowd was not even in this world when Waqar was destroying batting lineups all over the world in first phase of his career. Ball tampering was for everyone not for waqar only. He used that to his advantage like no one else got even close just because he was that much skilled. Almost every quick bowling lineup used ball tampering but no one ever got close to Waqars menace in his initial career before injury.
    Last edited by MenInG; 27th March 2021 at 09:43.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MesonK View Post
    Hate against Waqar among pakistani fans usually stem from his coaching. Most of the PP crowd was not even in this world when Waqar was destroying batting lineups all over the world in first phase of his career. Ball tampering was for everyone not for waqar only. He used that to his advantage like no one else got even close just because he was that much skilled. Almost every quick bowling lineup used ball tampering but no one ever got close to Waqars menace in his initial career before injury
    Agreed. Most of these guys swore by Waqar couple years back but now turning their back on him in some sort of revisionism fueled by their disappointment in his coaching. Fact of the matter is he was an ATG. Then again half of PP also called Anderson Clouderson when he himself was heading towards ATG level 2-3 years ago but now kiss his feet. So don’t worry, they’ll be back to putting him on a pedestal again in a few years...

    It’s like a reverse hype machine rn
    Last edited by MenInG; 27th March 2021 at 09:44.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Indian bowlers also were quite good at it. The difference was that these guys were also much quicker and more skilful.
    I'm saying everyone was tampering back then. English bowlers used to tamper a lot too but were not as good as Pakistani bowlers were certainly. In terms of skill, I don't think other teams knew how to maintain the ball's condition, not India or England and that played a part.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  12. #92
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    Waqar from 1989 to 1998 and from 1999 to 2003 were 2 totally different bowlers. His final phase in his career and his bowling coaching failures have hurt his legacy badly

  13. #93
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    Derek Pringle on Ball tampering
    Nz tour of pak 1990

    Pringle and the late Martin Crowe - captain of that side - both confessed after their respective retirements, insisting Pakistan were doing it too and the local umpires turned a blind eye to both teams' actions.
    In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad.

    Pringle, in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me, said the bottle top technique got instant results in the nets. "Even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," he wrote.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeteshssaxena View Post
    Derek Pringle on Ball tampering
    Nz tour of pak 1990

    Pringle and the late Martin Crowe - captain of that side - both confessed after their respective retirements, insisting Pakistan were doing it too and the local umpires turned a blind eye to both teams' actions.
    In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad.

    Pringle, in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me, said the bottle top technique got instant results in the nets. "Even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," he wrote.
    And thats the reason why bowlers in those eras should never be compared to those bowling in the digital camera/DRS era. Umpires back then turned a blind eye to such stuff going on across teams - hence those bowler stats could be heavily padded.

    However doesnt take away from Waqar’s effectiveness. As others mentioned, bowlers across teams scuffed up the bowl & it wasnt a big deal back then then, but still he was crazy good. I wont blame him for doing this, it was upto the umpires to stop him & they didn’t!

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    A simple look at his Test record against the mighty Aussies gives us a clear picture of how good he was. Add to that, he played 2 matches against arch rivals India in WC's (96' WC, 03' WC) and was given the beating of a lifetime in both the matches.

    He was nothing more than an overrated bowler by Pak fans, who was no where half as good as Wasim Akram.
    You take his record against one team and two matches against another and come to the conclusion that he was only hyped by Pak fans? Legends of the game have praised him, even Usain Bolt who had many Windies bowler to look up to had Waqar as his favourite bowler growing up lol.

    Amazing that people just come out and utter nonesense about a guy who has proven record in both Tests and ODIs.

    I can see the all the indians getting an opportunity and trying all they can to make fun of cricketing great.

    There is no doubt he is a poor coach and being a great of the game does’t always make you a great coach, just like having a poor playing career doesn’t always make you a poor coach. But as a player he was truly a great player, and at least no indian fast bowler from past can come close to his popularity around the World.
    Last edited by Last Monetarist; 27th March 2021 at 10:20.


    Ki Mohammad (saw) sey wafa tu ney tou hum terey hain
    Yeh jahaan cheez kya hai Loh-o-Qalam tere hain

  16. #96
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    Waqar in his prime feasted on a declining WI team in 1990, a poor NZ team in 1990, a declining England team in 1992, a declining WI team in 1992, a terrible NZ team in 1993, 1994, his record against Australia was not that great either. It was also the time period when reverse swing was a novelty.

    It was only from 1995-96 onwards where most international teams started to understand how to play reverse swing. Without his express pace Waqar became half the bowler especially from 1999 onwards

  17. #97
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    As bad as I hate Waqar but Waqar is not Prasad/Vass/Aaqib category bowlers Asif is trying to portrait. Problem with Waqar he was not an intelligent/innovative/courageous bowler when pitch/condition doesn't suit his bowling. He tried to stick on his technique regardless the pitch/condition.

    Also, playing excessive county matches damaged his body and it affects him badly later his career.

    Another thing Waqar was very arrogant person and thinks to highly of himself which is why he rebel against Wasim which also prompted his downfall. He could be humble and eager to learn something from Wasim and went far.

  18. #98
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    Asif is a racist, characterless disgrace who doesn't have a right to say anything; let alone on anything related to 'cheating'.

    People talk about his natural ability which definitely was unparalleled. But thing is that he was so characterless that he was always going to throw it all away one way or another. The guy is just a terrible human being. Besides all the damage he caused to Pakistan's reputation he is also a rabid racist who was making racist comments on TV not too long ago about the pathan players in the national team.

    I don't care about anything he has to say. Doesn't matter how true or untrue it is.

  19. #99
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    This thread is insane.

    How is Waqar Younis' legacy, record, status in the game even in doubt.

  20. #100
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    Just look at Mitchell Starcs effectiveness since the ball tampering saga

    Completely downhill


  21. #101
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    Asif can say what he wants about Waqar, but the fact remains he is an all-time great, a match-winner, a legend, someone who could change the course of a match in the space of a couple of overs and one of the greatest bowlers I have ever seen.

    Asif's allegations probably come from the fact that Waqar is currently the bowling coach, a role that he probably feels he could have done, if he hadn't ruined his own career.
    Last edited by Saj; 27th March 2021 at 13:34.



  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Asif can say what he wants about Waqar, but the fact remains he is an all-time great, a match-winner, a legend, someone who could change the course of a match in the space of a couple of overs and one of the greatest bowlers I have ever seen.

    Asif's allegations probably come from the fact that Waqar is currently the bowling coach, a role that he probably feels he could have done, if he hadn't ruined his own career.
    Well said.

    All these kids belittling Waqar, would do well to understand that the guy is a cricketing legend in every sense of the word, and you have to be a pathetic no-life nobody to not understand what that actually means. Asif has some personal grudge against him, which is why we see new colorful statements every other day.

    Fact remains, Waqar Younis was an absolute freak, and when he got going he ran through batting line-ups and turned crucial games in our favor consistently. Don’t let his mediocre coaching career blind you to the fact that he is a legend and deserves every ounce of respect that comes his way.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    A simple look at his Test record against the mighty Aussies gives us a clear picture of how good he was. Add to that, he played 2 matches against arch rivals India in WC's (96' WC, 03' WC) and was given the beating of a lifetime in both the matches.

    He was nothing more than an overrated bowler by Pak fans, who was no where half as good as Wasim Akram.

    Yh he is overrated as you say sir. Has India even produced a bowler half as good as waqar? I don't think so..

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Lol, let's see if WY takes legal action here. This is not a comment he can ignore.

    BTW if Waqar was guilty of bowling with tampered balls at his peak, then why are no fingers being pointed at Wasim?
    Waqar younis was caught tampering with the ball and punished by ICC. The match before he was warned. He was the first player in international cricket to be punished for tampering.

    So what will he sue Asif for?
    Last edited by Last Monetarist; 27th March 2021 at 14:25.

  25. #105
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    People are being unfair with Waqar. Yes he benefitted massively by tampering the ball. But he was still a express fast bowler with decent accuracy and natural outswing due to his action.

    He may not have avgd 19.xx like he did in early part of his career but with reduced pace he avgd 29 later in the career so imo he still would have avgd between 26 to 28 as a bowler and would have been in the same class as a Gillespie or Ntini.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Waqar younis was caught tampering with the ball and punished by ICC. The match before he was warned. He was the first player in international cricket to be punished for tampering.

    So what will he sue Asif for?
    Let's not be naïve - please.

    When you call someone a ball-tamperer you are implying he does it all the time.

    When you say he was caught/fined/suspended on one occasion, that puts a completely different spin on it.

    Which is that you are implying?

    Here is some food for thought:

    Sachin Tendulkar was once accused of ball tampering. Sachin Tendulkar was handed a one-match suspended ban by referee Mike Denness for ball tampering in the 2001 Port Elizabeth Test against South Africa. Television footage appeared to show Tendulkar scratching the ball but he maintained that he was cleaning the seam.

    Should be we now call Sachin a cheat and ball tamperer?


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  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Wasim Akram was the man, the best bowler produced by Pakistan. Closely (I repeat, v. closely) by the great Imran Khan.
    Other way round.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    No mate not until his later years, once Aqib was out and Waqar remodelled his action.
    Throughout the 1992 Test series he was first change until the final oval test when he was finally back in full form after his injuries. He picked up three or four wickets opening the bowling
    Here he is taking the new ball in the third test.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    And fifth:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    Odd that Aaqib got the new ball in two tests given that Waqar was clearly faster and better.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Here he is taking the new ball in the third test.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    And fifth:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    Odd that Aaqib got the new ball in two tests given that Waqar was clearly faster and better.
    Aaqib was actually a more effective new ball bowler in those years.

    He could bowl late outswing at around 135K.

    Waqar only really learned to use the new ball in the period up to the South Africa tour of 97-98.

    I watched the two of them at The Oval in 1991 when Surrey played Hampshire. Waqar was devastating with the old ball, and took 12 wickets, but Aaqib was actually better with the new ball!

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Other way round.
    IK was a much better test bowler. WA never reached the heights his talent deserved.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Lol forget Indian Bowlers. Indian batsmen also used to do it in the hope that their bowlers would start taking wickets for a change. But that barely helped either
    In the match Ind in the 92 WC, they had tampered with the ball so much that a journeyman bowler like Prabahakar was swing it so much that PK batsman couldn't lay a bat on it. Generally they didn't have the pace to do anything with it.
    Last edited by OMB; 27th March 2021 at 17:09.

  32. #112
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    It's not about Waqar. Back in the day, basically everyone used to scuff up the ball because you could get away with it in those times of poor cameras. Past cricketers have admitted doing so because they could get away with it.

    Everytime I watch a footage from the 70s or 80s, the ball seems to be moving around like crazy. Like everyone seems to be peak Anderson or Dale Steyn.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Here he is taking the new ball in the third test.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    And fifth:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    Odd that Aaqib got the new ball in two tests given that Waqar was clearly faster and better.
    Sorry, what’s the comparison here? There was no way Waqar was going to get the new ball ideally with Aqib in the XI.

    PAK have not produced many good new ball bowlers anyway, and Aqib could easily make the case for one of the better ones. In recent times Asif bettered him, or Aqib’s orthodox outswingers would have remained unmoved.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by MesonK View Post
    Atleast Waqar didnt fix matches like Asif.
    Cheated with ball and cheated with Age but yes, he most likely didn't fix matches!!!!!

    Not everyone from the noughties can claim it...

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Other way round.
    Both hit their peak in different times. WA always looked more deadly though IK was imperious.
    IK was imperious indeed, even when someone hit a six off him. Just used to turn and walk back to his mark with a minor tug at his collar and with a smile on his face.
    Wish we had bowlers like that. Now I so many OTT celebrations and weird sendoffs (dangerous yawwwwn).
    Last edited by OMB; 27th March 2021 at 17:48.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Let's not be naïve - please.

    When you call someone a ball-tamperer you are implying he does it all the time.

    When you say he was caught/fined/suspended on one occasion, that puts a completely different spin on it.

    Which is that you are implying?

    Here is some food for thought:

    Sachin Tendulkar was once accused of ball tampering. Sachin Tendulkar was handed a one-match suspended ban by referee Mike Denness for ball tampering in the 2001 Port Elizabeth Test against South Africa. Television footage appeared to show Tendulkar scratching the ball but he maintained that he was cleaning the seam.

    Should be we now call Sachin a cheat and ball tamperer?
    Well you cannot call sachin a cheat and tamperer becuase sachin was CLEARED of tampering and was only fined for cleaning the ball without permission.

    Dravid on the other hand was punished for tampering


    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Here he is taking the new ball in the third test.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    And fifth:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    Odd that Aaqib got the new ball in two tests given that Waqar was clearly faster and better.
    I don't why but from memory I thought he was first change until the last match at the oval.

    Aqib was a decent new ball bowler, with a decent away swinger so I can understand why he opened the bowling. Wasim was never going Rocco e up the new ball and nor should he have and so I guess that probably why he was first change in a few of the tests in 1992.
    Maybe also do with trying to bowl quick and no having confidence to control the new ball at his fastest?

    Anyway, he did just come back from a stress fracture of the back and to be able to bowl so quick and take so many wickets so soon after that is also testament to his character

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    No need for Asif to come out with this sort of stuff.

    I interviewed him a couple of months ago for Wisden and he mentioned this stuff about Waqar to me, he spoke against Pathan bowlers and a few others things, which I didn't include in the interview.
    SA said Sami was better than him but didn't have the heart that Punjab bowlers had
    People here call pathan bowlers dumb (have seen it)
    I won't be surprised if he was calling tham dumb (in bowling intelligence)

    Yeah there's a ethnic problem in PCT circles

  39. #119
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    It's pretty clear those who were born in the 90s have no idea.

    WY debuted as a fast bowler, long before Reverse Swing was in the picture. He was one of the most devestating fast bowlers in the game, that is before his back injury.

    The reverse swing was just gravy on super skillz already. Even with a tampered ball, it takes amazing skillz to pull off those banana swings.

    Famous quote by Alan Border before the 1992 WC started, when WY was ruled out the tournament with injury - '90% of our worries are over'

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedwoodOriginal View Post
    Asif is a racist, characterless disgrace who doesn't have a right to say anything; let alone on anything related to 'cheating'.

    People talk about his natural ability which definitely was unparalleled. But thing is that he was so characterless that he was always going to throw it all away one way or another. The guy is just a terrible human being. Besides all the damage he caused to Pakistan's reputation he is also a rabid racist who was making racist comments on TV not too long ago about the pathan players in the national team.

    I don't care about anything he has to say. Doesn't matter how true or untrue it is.
    How was he racist?

    Not doubting you, just want to know the context.

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    It's pretty clear those who were born in the 90s have no idea.

    WY debuted as a fast bowler, long before Reverse Swing was in the picture. He was one of the most devestating fast bowlers in the game, that is before his back injury.

    The reverse swing was just gravy on super skillz already. Even with a tampered ball, it takes amazing skillz to pull off those banana swings.

    Famous quote by Alan Border before the 1992 WC started, when WY was ruled out the tournament with injury - '90% of our worries are over'
    I thought reverse swing was discovered and subsequently exhibited in the 70s/80s?

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Well you cannot call sachin a cheat and tamperer becuase sachin was CLEARED of tampering and was only fined for cleaning the ball without permission.

    Dravid on the other hand was punished for tampering
    The video evidence is there for everyone. The ruling makes no difference. ICC bowed down to BCCI's pressure.

  43. #123
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    Loving the truth bombs here from Asif.

    Waqar Younis was overrated. He always bottled it when the stakes were high and this is evident from the following contests and series:

    1. 1996 WC Quarter-final against India
    2. 2003 WC matches against Australia and India
    3. 40.50 test bowling average in Australia
    4. 76.50 test bowling average in India

    The above list shows that when the stakes were the high, the occasion always got the better of him.

    Dare I say Waqar's absence in the 1992 WC may have been a blessing in disguise.
    Last edited by topspin; 27th March 2021 at 21:49.

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    I thought reverse swing was discovered and subsequently exhibited in the 70s/80s?
    Ball-tampering with bottle caps, which was the hallmark of Pakistani fast bowlers, was discovered by Sarfaraz Nawaz who passed the “art” to Imran who passed it to Wasim and Waqar.

    During my 9 years on PP, I have read many ludicrous and laughable statements, but the notion that reverse swing came into the picture long after Waqar’s debut is certainly at the very top.

    Not only is it complete nonsense, it is a downright lie. However, I am not least surprised to see the poster behind this post.

  45. #125
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    In his interview with Saj for Wisden, Waqar was very clear about the whole issue and why he felt England's batting was very weak.


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    Waqar in my interview with him a few months ago for Wisden:

    The ball-tampering allegations were heart-breaking. Our bowling attack was far superior to that of the opposition and Sir Geoffrey Boycott appreciated that when he said we could have bowled England out with an orange. It wasn’t a great feeling of course to be labelled cheats, but at that moment, we were just focussed on our performances and making sure we won matches for our country and silencing the critics. Every time we went to England, we gave them a hard time, we won most of the time and that was something that some couldn’t take. But we were just enjoying the moment, looking at our wickets column and the results, without bothering too much about what some were saying.



  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Waqar in my interview with him a few months ago for Wisden:

    The ball-tampering allegations were heart-breaking. Our bowling attack was far superior to that of the opposition and Sir Geoffrey Boycott appreciated that when he said we could have bowled England out with an orange. It wasn’t a great feeling of course to be labelled cheats, but at that moment, we were just focussed on our performances and making sure we won matches for our country and silencing the critics. Every time we went to England, we gave them a hard time, we won most of the time and that was something that some couldn’t take. But we were just enjoying the moment, looking at our wickets column and the results, without bothering too much about what some were saying.
    The funniest thing, and some of these posters here who probably never watched those games would not know, was that Waqar had been taking wickets for Surrey and no one questioned him but all changed when he took wickets against England.

    To me and millions of others, Waqar did us proud and I will always be grateful to him for that summer.

    The nashukras, well that's who they are.


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  48. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Ball-tampering with bottle caps, which was the hallmark of Pakistani fast bowlers, was discovered by Sarfaraz Nawaz who passed the “art” to Imran who passed it to Wasim and Waqar.

    During my 9 years on PP, I have read many ludicrous and laughable statements, but the notion that reverse swing came into the picture long after Waqar’s debut is certainly at the very top.

    Not only is it complete nonsense, it is a downright lie. However, I am not least surprised to see the poster behind this post.
    Honestly Mammon, it's for the greater good of Pakistan cricket that our ex-players, fans, coaches, mentors and etc can accept this.

    If we want reforms in Pakistan cricket, we need to accept the reality that these tricks which worked in the past simply don't work today.

    We need to stop producing low arm slingy bowlers but rather taller bowlers with high arm action who aim to excel on conventional bowling skills.

    Couldn't agree more with the last paragraph. I guess the life of a party after all those nights sitting on a dance floor were inevitably going to take its toll on him one day.

  49. #129
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    Poor comment from Asif. This was unnecessary.


    Bangladeshi Fan || [B]

  50. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by leg-side-flick View Post
    Cheated with ball and cheated with Age but yes, he most likely didn't fix matches!!!!!

    Not everyone from the noughties can claim it...
    your whole logic is stupid to the core.

    - If Waqar is a cheater for ball tampering then so is Tendulkar, Dravid, Atherton, Jimmy Anderson, Broad (all charged for law 42, Section 5) ... Funny that Indian team was charged with ball tampering (Dravid was fined massively) around same era yet Indian fast bowlers ended their careers with 30-ish averages. Was Waqar 10 times more skilled then Indian fast bowlers ? I mean Indians were also using doctored balls yet Indian bowlers failed to utilize the cheating.

    - Provide proof that Waqar cheated with age. Innocent until proven guilty, that is how the world works. I would not call 30 years old Shami (registered age) an actual 38 years old either because I have no proof if he is actually 38.

  51. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    How was he racist?

    Not doubting you, just want to know the context.
    He was talking about them in context to age-fudging. However the way he talked about them was incredibly racist. Referring to them as "Khans". And even used curse words in a video that were bleeped out.

    What's even worse is that the hosts seem to be laughing and egging him on.
    Last edited by MenInG; 27th March 2021 at 23:24.

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Let's not be naïve - please.

    When you call someone a ball-tamperer you are implying he does it all the time.

    When you say he was caught/fined/suspended on one occasion, that puts a completely different spin on it.

    Which is that you are implying?

    Here is some food for thought:

    Sachin Tendulkar was once accused of ball tampering. Sachin Tendulkar was handed a one-match suspended ban by referee Mike Denness for ball tampering in the 2001 Port Elizabeth Test against South Africa. Television footage appeared to show Tendulkar scratching the ball but he maintained that he was cleaning the seam.

    Should be we now call Sachin a cheat and ball tamperer?
    Tendulkar was acquitted by an Independent tribunal of the ICC. Similar tribunal acquitted the Pakistan team in the oval test. No one calls them cheat or ball tamperers.

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    The video evidence is there for everyone. The ruling makes no difference. ICC bowed down to BCCI's pressure.
    So ICC bowed down to PCB when they cleared the pakistan team in 2006?

  54. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Ball-tampering with bottle caps, which was the hallmark of Pakistani fast bowlers, was discovered by Sarfaraz Nawaz who passed the “art” to Imran who passed it to Wasim and Waqar.

    During my 9 years on PP, I have read many ludicrous and laughable statements, but the notion that reverse swing came into the picture long after Waqar’s debut is certainly at the very top.

    Not only is it complete nonsense, it is a downright lie. However, I am not least surprised to see the poster behind this post.
    As ever you fail to comprehend. RS was not in WY's repitore of skillz when he debuted for Pakistan. He learned the art later in his career, but he was way destructive with his speed and accuracy alone before that. You were still in your pampers then.

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Honestly Mammon, it's for the greater good of Pakistan cricket that our ex-players, fans, coaches, mentors and etc can accept this.

    If we want reforms in Pakistan cricket, we need to accept the reality that these tricks which worked in the past simply don't work today.

    We need to stop producing low arm slingy bowlers but rather taller bowlers with high arm action who aim to excel on conventional bowling skills.

    Couldn't agree more with the last paragraph. I guess the life of a party after all those nights sitting on a dance floor were inevitably going to take its toll on him one day.
    Waqar and the other 90s players were as pure as mother's milk.

    That's why most of them are named in Justice Qayyum's Report into match fixing. I love the defence that others also ball tampered too but didn't get as good a result - as if their problem is they didn't cheat well enough like the 2Ws.

    Nobody is doubting Waqar worked hard and helped Pakistan triumph on many occasions. I saw many of those matches. Yes Asif's not the best messenger given his controversies. However he's right that using Wasim and Waqar as mentors for today's generation has failed repeatedly. Wasim's gifts were natural hence why he finds it hard to pinpoint technical flaws with bowlers, and why his multiple Pepsi Talent Hunts has produced the square root of sod all.

    Meanwhile Waqar couldn't even get hired as Australia's bowling coach, and is on his fifth stint as a coach with Pakistan, going no better than his previous four tenures. And bowlers now cannot tamper to their heart's content with neutral umpires and two dozen TV cameras at every match where such methods are picked up instantly.

  56. #136
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    You may not rate waqar younis coaching but bowling wise asifs totally wrong here and he shouldnt be disrespecting a legend which waqar is and always will be


    If pakistan cricket is to move forward they need to stop going back

  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    You may not rate waqar younis coaching but bowling wise asifs totally wrong here and he shouldnt be disrespecting a legend which waqar is and always will be
    Waqar is ruining his own legacy by continued failings in the coaching scene. If he just left it well alone he'd be remembered as a legend but his reputation is being severely checked by how bad he has been in the national set up.

    This thread doesn't exist if Waqar just stopped coaching and bringing disrespect onto himself in the process.

  58. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Waqar is ruining his own legacy by continued failings in the coaching scene. If he just left it well alone he'd be remembered as a legend but his reputation is being severely checked by how bad he has been in the national set up.

    This thread doesn't exist if Waqar just stopped coaching and bringing disrespect onto himself in the process.
    He's ruining his playing legacy because of his coaching?

    What is wrong with you.
    Last edited by Saj; 28th March 2021 at 02:25.

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    He's ruining his playing legacy because of his coaching?

    What is wrong with you.
    Yes. Why is that hard to figure out? He is losing his aura as a legend and now all sorts of questions are now coming out about his career too. Wasim is not getting the same treatment and remains revered by his fans with barely a bad word uttered about him. Waqar is not spoken about even close to the same way on this forum.

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Yes. Why is that hard to figure out? He is losing his aura as a legend and now all sorts of questions are now coming out about his career too. Wasim is not getting the same treatment and remains revered by his fans with barely a bad word uttered about him. Waqar is not spoken about even close to the same way on this forum.
    Utter Hogwash

    The only ones here who are using his coaching skills or lack thereof to demean his bowling are the ones who never watched him bowl in his early career or was just too young to appreciate him. That or they are just prejudiced or have little understanding of the game.

    Which one are you?

  61. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedwoodOriginal View Post
    He was talking about them in context to age-fudging. However the way he talked about them was incredibly racist. Referring to them as "Khans". And even used curse words in a video that were bleeped out.

    What's even worse is that the hosts seem to be laughing and egging him on.
    Although I agree with Asif's views on Waqar and enjoy listening to his technical analysis of fast bowling, these comments are sad to hear and completely unacceptable.

  62. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Waqar and the other 90s players were as pure as mother's milk.

    That's why most of them are named in Justice Qayyum's Report into match fixing. I love the defence that others also ball tampered too but didn't get as good a result - as if their problem is they didn't cheat well enough like the 2Ws.

    Nobody is doubting Waqar worked hard and helped Pakistan triumph on many occasions. I saw many of those matches. Yes Asif's not the best messenger given his controversies. However he's right that using Wasim and Waqar as mentors for today's generation has failed repeatedly. Wasim's gifts were natural hence why he finds it hard to pinpoint technical flaws with bowlers, and why his multiple Pepsi Talent Hunts has produced the square root of sod all.

    Meanwhile Waqar couldn't even get hired as Australia's bowling coach, and is on his fifth stint as a coach with Pakistan, going no better than his previous four tenures. And bowlers now cannot tamper to their heart's content with neutral umpires and two dozen TV cameras at every match where such methods are picked up instantly.
    Couldn't agree more, especially the last sentence in the second paragraph. The reason why other bowlers weren't as successful in achieving reverse swing (with ball tampering) was because they were more focused on conventional bowling skills as opposed to adopting slingy actions. Waqar Younis was essentially able to carve out a whole career as a bowler by exploiting this practice.

    It was only from 2000 onwards when he finally learnt how to swing the new ball.

    The fact that PCB continue to give stints to Waqar in a coaching capacity is one of the reasons why Aussies have a competent cricket board and cricket team and why Pakistan has an incompetent cricket board and cricket team.

  63. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaz View Post
    You may not rate waqar younis coaching but bowling wise asifs totally wrong here and he shouldnt be disrespecting a legend which waqar is and always will be
    You are probably being a little too supportive of Waqar here.

    The 1996 UK court case was devastating for reverse swing in general. It became obvious that whether the exponent was Waqar Younis or Darren Gough or Mitchell Starc, it is basically no different to how Ben Johnson drugged his way to the 1988 Olympic 100 metres gold medal, or how Lance Armstrong won his Tour de Frances.

    Some people who cheat are better than other people who cheat. Waqar had terrific pace until 1996, so his use of a doctored ball was more devastating than Martin Bicknell’s at Surrey, just as Wasim Akram was quicker than Ian Austin at Lancashire.

    As we all know, reverse swing is no longer a serious factor unless you scuff the ball with sandpaper. People get angry that Naseem Shah and Shaheen Shah Afridi don’t dismiss anyone with reverse, but the bottom line is that Waqar can teach them how to bowl with a doctored ball but they have no way of doctoring the ball to make it work.

    Reverse swing and the doosra were responses to excessively pro-batting conditions. But unfortunately they generally only work if you cheat.

    Personally, I think the only reasonable solution is uncovered pitches from the Toss to the end of each Test.

  64. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    Utter Hogwash

    The only ones here who are using his coaching skills or lack thereof to demean his bowling are the ones who never watched him bowl in his early career or was just too young to appreciate him. That or they are just prejudiced or have little understanding of the game.

    Which one are you?
    Again, that isn't the point.

    Waqar's poor coaching has invited disrespect onto his name and the result of that is people questioning his skills too. Whether you think there's a correlation or not isn't the issue here. It's the fact that his reputation has been tarnished since retirement and that's why threads like this one exist about him and not Wasim.

  65. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Again, that isn't the point.

    Waqar's poor coaching has invited disrespect onto his name and the result of that is people questioning his skills too. Whether you think there's a correlation or not isn't the issue here. It's the fact that his reputation has been tarnished since retirement and that's why threads like this one exist about him and not Wasim.
    People could make the argument that Wasim is protecting his reputation by refusing to get involved with lengthy coaching roles

  66. #146
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    Only people who've never seen Waqar bowl in his pomp will question him.

    He may have bowled with tampered balls but so did everyone else. Ball tampering was the norm those days and every team did it....it's terrible to point out only Pakistanis as if other teams were saints.

    Waqar is an ATG.

    This cheat Asif should have a look at himself before talking about others.

  67. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    As ever you fail to comprehend. RS was not in WY's repitore of skillz when he debuted for Pakistan. He learned the art later in his career, but he was way destructive with his speed and accuracy alone before that. You were still in your pampers then.
    Do you take us for fools? That is clearly not what you meant. It is not my failure to comprehend; it is your ignorance that you are now trying to cover up by changing the goalposts.

    You clearly implied that reverse-swing was not in the picture when Waqar made his debut; you did not say that Waqar did not utilize reverse-swing early in his career.

    You changed your tune only when you received a lesson in history from someone who was in his diapers in 1991. What a shame.

  68. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmal View Post
    Only people who've never seen Waqar bowl in his pomp will question him.

    He may have bowled with tampered balls but so did everyone else. Ball tampering was the norm those days and every team did it....it's terrible to point out only Pakistanis as if other teams were saints.

    Waqar is an ATG.

    This cheat Asif should have a look at himself before talking about others.
    Waqar was amazing at what he did but the question is, would he have been this good without bowling with doctored balls?

    The fact that he was much better at using tampered balls than all other bowlers of his time doesn’t mean he would have been a devastating bowler without bowling with tampered balls.

    It is a fact that he learned to utilize the new, untampered ball very late in his career and those banana yorkers that made him unplayable in his pomp were not possible without heavily tampered balls.

    Waqar was a lethal bowler with tampered balls the biggest beneficiary of tampering in history. People are shooting the messenger here. Whatever you think about Asif the person, there is no doubt he was a vastly superior bowler than Waqar when it comes to bowling with the new ball.

  69. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Mohammad Asif speaking in an interview:

    "The reverse swing that Waqar Younis used to get, we in Punjabi call it 'dabbee ball'; He only learnt to use the new ball when he was close to retirement; Before that he would cheat with the ball"

    "He has been associated with the side for past 20 years and given he is a master of reverse-swing, then at least he should have brought to the fore one reverse swing bowler; He had so much experience of bowling and was a master of reverse swing bowling"

    "I have now idea what our coaches are doing? We have a lot of bowlers but what seems to be happening is that after 2-3 games, we replace them with a new bowler"

    "They keep on saying lets find Young Talent but seems we are getting quantity but no quality coming through"

    "We have a collection of 8-10 fast bowlers and seem to replace them at will without any thought"

    "The reason we are bringing in young lads is because the coaches want someone who can stay under their thumbs"
    Glad that this man been humiliated and kicked out for good.

    Alec Stewart has thrown out an open challenge to all, and has effectively put an end to this hogwash against Wasim and Waqar, once and for all when he said,

    "Let anyone temper/cheat with the ball as much as they want, and they still can't bowl like Wasim and Waqar."
    Last edited by MenInG; 28th March 2021 at 10:47.

  70. #150
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    Lol people are actually gonna take a word of a charsee because Waqar ended careers of non performing clowns like Shehzad and Akmal?

    Anyways Waqars place as one of the greatest is set in stone and no whining will change that haha

  71. #151
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    The behavior of his balls would mirror the behavior of a one-sided tape ball. Tapping on a tennis ball is equivalent of tampering the ball on the one side.

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    Man Asif is such a racist. His statements about Pathan and other castes are just stupid.
    No wonder he did all those deeds and just bringing more shame to Pakistan and its fans.

  73. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    Man Asif is such a racist. His statements about Pathan and other castes are just stupid.
    No wonder he did all those deeds and just bringing more shame to Pakistan and its fans.
    Wow I didn’t know about this but just saw the video.

    Like wow! How unaware can you be. Usually racists in the west have the brains to not be caught like this and are exposed in sting operations. But this charsee smh

    He was one of the most skilled bowler I ever saw but he really had his screws loose clearly

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Wow I didn’t know about this but just saw the video.

    Like wow! How unaware can you be. Usually racists in the west have the brains to not be caught like this and are exposed in sting operations. But this charsee smh

    He was one of the most skilled bowler I ever saw but he really had his screws loose clearly
    It is a shame really. Great Artist with the ball.. Just no brains apart from that in general.

  75. #155
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    The waqar I saw from 1988-1992 was the daddy, devastating speed and hostility, he raced to 200 test wickets in under 40 tests with a unblievable strike rate. In that period he was vastly superior to wasim
    Last edited by Manunited18; 28th March 2021 at 12:21. Reason: Mistakes

  76. #156
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    It is now clear why the PCB wanted nothing to do with Asif.

  77. #157
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    Darren Gough in an interview I did with him:

    It's amazing really isn't it. I think it was because of the history of it, where a couple of people had been caught doing stuff to the ball in the past. From my experience, I had also watched players doing it and seen players doing their best to make the ball dryer on one side and more abrasive on one side, and this was being done all around the world. It's like the hidden rule where nobody says anything about it until they get caught.

    We even had Michael Atherton putting dirt on the ball for this reason, but he wasn't using his nails. I was bowling at the time and Ian Salisbury was bowling at the other end and a spinner always puts his hand down on the crease to keep his hand dry and he was doing that. I think Atherton innocently thought he would keep the ball dry on one side and sprinkled dirt on the ball. He didn't have a clue what he was doing, but he saw Salisbury doing it and for some reason, he put his hand in his pocket and the rest is history. But I definitely got reverse-swing that day, so I didn't complain and I got 8 wickets in the match, 4 wickets in each innings.

    Unfortunately, the suspicions will always be there as soon as anyone starts to reverse the ball these days - it's the first thing that is looked for. Reverse-swing can be done naturally, and also sometimes players do it in other ways such as throwing the ball into the wicket-keeper on the bounce. Warwickshire, for example, used to scuff the ball up on their dry pitches in One-day cricket. So, there are lots of ways this can be done, but it can definitely be done naturally. I can honestly say I did not have the fingernails to scratch the ball when I bowled. I honestly mean this, and I did it naturally. I had a fast arm, I had a low arm, and a nice side-on action and I used to get further round in my action when I wanted to reverse-swing the ball and I was a natural reverse-swing bowler.



  78. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    It is now clear why the PCB wanted nothing to do with Asif.
    Really? When has that stopped the PCB from having to do with other players, fixers or otherwise?

  79. #159
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    By the way we should discard all the seam bowlers records too as they would often lift the seam.

    I've heard some arguments here but the one that made me laugh the most was that his legacy as a bowler is affected due to his poor coaching skills.

  80. #160
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    Asif is one crazy person.. Looked at few of his shenanigans on youtube.. involving Veena as well.
    It is a pity that no one could reel him in.


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