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  1. #161
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    According to Imran Khan, all seam bowlers down the generations have tailored the ball to suit their needs. "I have occasionally scratched the ball and lifted the seam. Only once did I use an object. The ball was not deviating at all, so I got the 12th man to bring on a bottle top and it started to move around a lot." This was during the county encounter between Sussex and Hampshire in 1981, and the methods remained undetected.

    When Imran took six for six from 23 deliveries, including a hat-trick, for Sussex against Warwickshire in 1983, umpire voiced his suspicions. Although , who saw the destruction from the non-strikerís end, deemed it the best bowling he had ever seen, others were not that effusive. England seamer Chris Old told the Daily Mirror, "I saw the ball [Imran] had tampered with, and it looked like a dog had chewed it."

    According to Oslear, "This was the first time I had seen one side of the ball scratched and torn with pieces of leather ripped out. The quarter seam had been opened up at a point where it meets the stitched seam and it appeared that some of the stitches had been cut. This allowed a triangle of leather to be pulled up from the surface of the ball, it was a piece large enough to be gripped between forefinger and thumb, and by which the ball could be suspended."

    A report was sent to Lordís.

    Almost a decade later, Imranís disciples, Wasim Akram and Waqar, started producing late swing with the old ball. Not too far behind in this particular skill was . When New Zealand visited Pakistan in 1990-91, they were convinced that tampering was taking place. On their return, manager Ian Taylor said, "Iím not sure how they did it ó whether they used fingernails or sandpaper. I would not have been surprised if they used knives.

    Allan Lamb reported a relaxed exchange between Imran Khan and outside the wine bar at St Johnís Wood before the start of the Lordís Test against West Indies in 1991. Imran asked Smith, the Hampshire captain, how Aaqib was doing. According to Lamb: "Robin said, 'Very well ó he is doing a good job for us but has got warned on numerous occasions for tampering with the ball.í Imran replied, 'Yes, Iíve told him to be more discreet when he does ití"

    Aamer Sohail, " "Imran damaged Pakistan cricket by encouraging our bowlers to tamper with the ball. This has led to a culture where we can't produce good new ball bowlers or quality openers."

    Mudassar Nazar, now Pakistan national 'Bí coach, declared after the New Zealand tour: "The outlawed practice of roughing up one side of the ball to enhance swing must be eradicated in Pakistan. Itís got to stop."

  2. #162
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    Waqar Younis, throughout the majority of his bowling spells in tests prior to his back stress facture, would take wickets with the new ball. This is against India on his debut and also against the Kiwis in 1990 in Pakistan.
    He was picking up top order wickets for hardly any runs and either the new ball.

  3. #163
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    The reality is that Pakistan has only produced three genuinely great cricketers: Imran, Wasim and Miandad.

    Asif could have been the fourth one but his career was too short.

    Every other so-called great cricketer is either overrated or their success was circumstantial.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The reality is that Pakistan has only produced three genuinely great cricketers: Imran, Wasim and Miandad.

    Asif could have been the fourth one but his career was too short.

    Every other so-called great cricketer is either overrated or their success was circumstantial.
    The 'reality' ....

    Let me state my 'reality' - Waqar Younis' spells in those games in 1992 made all Pakistanis proud.

    Those not interested in Pakistan or it's cricketers for whatever reasons may think otherwise.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The reality is that Pakistan has only produced three genuinely great cricketers: Imran, Wasim and Miandad.

    Asif could have been the fourth one but his career was too short.

    Every other so-called great cricketer is either overrated or their success was circumstantial.
    Even with Miandad it is a borderline case. His test batting averages in Australia and WI leave much to be desired.

    His home test batting average was inflated by biased home umpiring.

    Wasim and Imran on the other hand were genuine top tier ATGs.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The reality is that Pakistan has only produced three genuinely great cricketers: Imran, Wasim and Miandad.

    Asif could have been the fourth one but his career was too short.

    Every other so-called great cricketer is either overrated or their success was circumstantial.
    The reality in the record books say waqar younis took nearly 800 intnl wickets at a avge of 23 - thats atg level stats


    If pakistan cricket is to move forward they need to stop going back

  7. #167
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    There seems to be a direct correlation between rise of third umpire, ultra-slow high-res cameras, TV reviews, referrals, snickometers and the decline of Pakistan cricket, especially fast bowlers, in the last two decades.

    Someone can write a good thesis in the subject.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Even with Miandad it is a borderline case. His test batting averages in Australia and WI leave much to be desired.

    His home test batting average was inflated by biased home umpiring.

    Wasim and Imran on the other hand were genuine top tier ATGs.
    Miandad is inferior to Imran and Wasim, but I view him as a genuine great because if you put him in the same team as any Pakistani batsman in any era, he will outperform them all in all formats.

    He didnít dominate the West Indies, but he still did better than what the other notable Pakistani middle-order batsmen would have.

    Imagining Inzamam, Yousuf, Younis, Babar etc. against Marshall, Holding, Garner and Roberts on Caribbean pitches doesnít make for a pretty sight.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babbar View Post
    There seems to be a direct correlation between rise of third umpire, ultra-slow high-res cameras, TV reviews, referrals, snickometers and the decline of Pakistan cricket, especially fast bowlers, in the last two decades.

    Someone can write a good thesis in the subject.
    Absolutely. It is not surprising that the quality of Pakistanís fast bowling tumbled when large-scale tampering became difficult.

    What the Australians did in South Africa 3 years ago was routine business for Pakistani bowlers in every series, but they got away with it because of inadequate cameras.

    This is why I consider Pakistan to be the least talented cricket nation. Pakistan has a mediocre legacy in all departments of the game (batsmen, WK batsmen, spinners, fielding) except fast bowling, and the fast bowling legacy was largely a product of systematic cheating.

    While Imran and Wasim were genuine greats, their numbers and records are also inflated because of doctored balls. However, the difference between them and Waqar is that they do not owe their careers to doctored balls.

    It didnít take them 10+ years to learn how to vo with a new, undoctored ball.

    Moreover, speaking of lack of talent, Pakistan is - pound for pound - the worst fielding nation by a massive margin.

  10. #170
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    Blatant disrespecting of a legend. You guys deserve your Wahabs and Amirs

  11. #171
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    I don't care what any deluded fool says, Waqar is an ATG and that will always remain the case.

  12. #172
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    Too much disrespect in this thread for a legend of the game, and on the comments of a convicted spot fixer, a guy who was caught at the airport with drugs. Pakistan cricket is odd.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by WengerOut View Post
    Blatant disrespecting of a legend. You guys deserve your Wahabs and Amirs
    Amir fans have been attacking Waqar since the day he announced his retirement

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The reality is that Pakistan has only produced three genuinely great cricketers: Imran, Wasim and Miandad.

    Asif could have been the fourth one but his career was too short.

    Every other so-called great cricketer is either overrated or their success was circumstantial.
    Asif is extremely over rated. He was a new ball bully and a green top bully. I can pinpoint many matches where he struggled badly on flat wickets and i challenge anyone to pinpoint one spells where he ran through a side with the older ball. If Asif got the same so called doctored balls as Waqar apparently used in his prime, his lack of speed would have rendered him useless with the old ball. As it was Jonathan Trott had shown the world the formula to neutralize Asif in the hundred he scored in the final test in 2010.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Glad that this man been humiliated and kicked out for good.

    Alec Stewart has thrown out an open challenge to all, and has effectively put an end to this hogwash against Wasim and Waqar, once and for all when he said,

    "Let anyone temper/cheat with the ball as much as they want, and they still can't bowl like Wasim and Waqar."
    Wasim & Waqar were two vastly different bowlers. Wasim could swing the new ball both ways with speed & accuracy and had a great bouncer in his repertoire. He also had the ability to bowl from both over & round the wicket and also used the crease well. He basically had all the ingredients of a complete fast bowler.
    Waqar was for most part a one length bowler who's main weapon was a yorker. He wasn't as tall as Wasim and didn't really troubled the batsmen on their backfoot as he never really depended on back of a length or short pitched deliveries. Minus ball tampering he still would've been a good bowler with speed and accuracy but i don't thing he would've achieved what he did achieve.

  16. #176
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    So called tampering started in England and Australia with Vaseline and sun cream. Was common in county cricket.
    Waqar was a legend and as Boycs said he could bowl teams out with even an orange.

    Everyone tampered to an extent but you needed skill and class to be effective. Bowlers who bowled in the same team line up with Waqar (whether Aaqib Javed, Atta ur Rehman or bowlers from Surrey or Glamorgan could not get that same swing with the same ball, so how can people say tampering got him the wickets only and not skill?

    If there was more scrutiny them days and indeed there was some tampering then with his skill he would have adapted to take wickets with more conventional outswing and seam (like during the twilight of his career he did even though he was declining then.

    Guy is a legend fast bowler.

  17. #177
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    Lol, you could Asif the same tampered ball, he wouldn't be able to do Jack with the older ball on flat placid wickets. His record on unresponsive wickets is pretty poor.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Asif is extremely over rated. He was a new ball bully and a green top bully. I can pinpoint many matches where he struggled badly on flat wickets and i challenge anyone to pinpoint one spells where he ran through a side with the older ball. If Asif got the same so called doctored balls as Waqar apparently used in his prime, his lack of speed would have rendered him useless with the old ball. As it was Jonathan Trott had shown the world the formula to neutralize Asif in the hundred he scored in the final test in 2010.
    Asif was a magician with the new ball and he would have been great in any era. New ball skill are timeless.

    Put him and Waqar in the same team and give them an un-tampered new ball and Asif will outperform him more often than not.

    Trott negating him at Lordís in 2010 means nothing. Trott was a top batsman in his prime and every great bowler has been neutralized at one point of the other.

    Asif never played after and if he did, he would continue to be successful and take bucketloads of wickets.

    If Waqar played today, the thrashing that he received at the hands of Jadeja would be a regular occurrence and he would still flop in places like Australia.

    Asif was not great with the old ball but overall, he deserves to be recognized as a more skilled bowler than Waqar.

    Asif was set to take more Test wickets than Waqar but his own stupidly and penchant for illegal activities destroyed his career. If the spot-fixing did not happen, he would have found something else to sabotage his career.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishtiaq_ctg View Post
    Wasim & Waqar were two vastly different bowlers. Wasim could swing the new ball both ways with speed & accuracy and had a great bouncer in his repertoire. He also had the ability to bowl from both over & round the wicket and also used the crease well. He basically had all the ingredients of a complete fast bowler.
    Waqar was for most part a one length bowler who's main weapon was a yorker. He wasn't as tall as Wasim and didn't really troubled the batsmen on their backfoot as he never really depended on back of a length or short pitched deliveries.
    Thank you captain obvious.
    However no one said they were the same kind of bowlers. Not sure why you wasted time n effort?



    Minus ball tampering he still would've been a good bowler with speed and accuracy but i don't thing he would've achieved what he did achieve.
    ďMinus the temperingĒ
    lol, think about, ball was supposedly tempered by Waqar, but when Wasim bowled with the same ball from the other end, he negated the tempered effect?
    Is that what you meant by ďminus the temperingĒ?


    Thank

  20. #180
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    People need to differentiate between Waqar the bowler and Waqar the bowling coach.

    Some people's judgment about Waqar the bowler is being clouded by his struggles as the bowling coach.




  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Waqar was amazing at what he did but the question is, would he have been this good without bowling with doctored balls?

    The fact that he was much better at using tampered balls than all other bowlers of his time doesnít mean he would have been a devastating bowler without bowling with tampered balls.

    It is a fact that he learned to utilize the new, untampered ball very late in his career and those banana yorkers that made him unplayable in his pomp were not possible without heavily tampered balls.

    Waqar was a lethal bowler with tampered balls the biggest beneficiary of tampering in history. People are shooting the messenger here. Whatever you think about Asif the person, there is no doubt he was a vastly superior bowler than Waqar when it comes to bowling with the new ball.
    Asif only took 104 wickets and his career does not have the longevity to compare him to any one. Its like freezing Mohammad Abbas stats after 15 tests and calling him a great. I wonder how his career would have gone had he not cheated.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarak View Post
    Asif only took 104 wickets and his career does not have the longevity to compare him to any one. Its like freezing Mohammad Abbas stats after 15 tests and calling him a great. I wonder how his career would have gone had he not cheated.
    Abbas at best is a poor manís Asif.

    Asif only took 103 wickets and played 23 Tests, but he was world class for 4-5 years from 2006 until his ban in 2010.

    On the other hand, Abbas was a spent force after about 1.5 years of honeymoon period. He made his debut in 2017 and by the start of 2019, he has looked bang average and continued to play based on 2018 exploits against England and Australia.

    Apart from being a visibly inferior bowler, his rapid decline can also be explained by the fact that he is clearly an age cheat. There is no way he is only 31. In fact, he is probably around the same age as Asif himself, who is 38 (officially) now.

    Asif was in the same class as Anderson and there is no doubt he had the ability to overtake Waqarís wickets tally in Test cricket. He would have definitely played until 2017-18.

  23. #183
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    Asif was a high class bowler, an intelligent bowler, a bowler who had that ability to work out batsmen and get inside their head. This is why the likes of KP, Hashim Amla etc rate Asif so highly.

    When you talk cricket with him (non controversial and serious stuff), you can see why he was so good. I interviewed him for Wisden (the interview was in last month's magazine) and will be on PakPassion soon. We spoke for nearly 2 hours, it was fascinating, it was like getting inside the mind of a sporting artist and see how they operate.

    Sadly though, for all of his great attributes, he had a few that were not so great too.



  24. #184
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    Asif would be a fantastic bowling coach. He cannot teach his talent to others but he can impart his knowledge about technical aspects that can be easily implemented.

    Waqar clearly does not know anything about technical aspects of fast bowling or perhaps he does not know how to impart the knowledge to other people.

    15+ years of failure as coach shows that it is either of the two. While he was mesmerizingly good with doctored balls, he may not know what was going on.

    A lot of successful athletes are often quite ignorant about their own success because it comes to them naturally. Waqar seems to be in the same boat because he is a complete failure as a coach.

    Asif on the other hand is extremely intelligent and perceptive when it comes to bowling and he is highly analytical.

    PCB should let bygones be bygones and rope him in as a full-time bowling coach.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Asif would be a fantastic bowling coach. He cannot teach his talent to others but he can impart his knowledge about technical aspects that can be easily implemented.

    Waqar clearly does not know anything about technical aspects of fast bowling or perhaps he does not know how to impart the knowledge to other people.

    15+ years of failure as coach shows that it is either of the two. While he was mesmerizingly good with doctored balls, he may not know what was going on.

    A lot of successful athletes are often quite ignorant about their own success because it comes to them naturally. Waqar seems to be in the same boat because he is a complete failure as a coach.

    Asif on the other hand is extremely intelligent and perceptive when it comes to bowling and he is highly analytical.

    PCB should let bygones be bygones and rope him in as a full-time bowling coach.
    I would love to see Asif as a Bowling Coach. But it won't be PCB that'd take that risk. I believe a PSL team would have to take that risk first, then Asif's bowlers would hopefully translate that in some success. THAT would make the blindfolded people of Pakistan take notice and cry out in media and PP to bring in Asif as a Bowling Coach....THEN may be we will see him with the Pakistan Cricket Team... May be.

    By then we would have degraded from #5/#6 to probably #7 or 8 in rankings

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketingMinds View Post
    I would love to see Asif as a Bowling Coach. But it won't be PCB that'd take that risk. I believe a PSL team would have to take that risk first, then Asif's bowlers would hopefully translate that in some success. THAT would make the blindfolded people of Pakistan take notice and cry out in media and PP to bring in Asif as a Bowling Coach....THEN may be we will see him with the Pakistan Cricket Team... May be.

    By then we would have degraded from #5/#6 to probably #7 or 8 in rankings
    Yes I can see that happening, but Asif the coach will truly shine in Test cricket and not T20 cricket.

    He himself wasnít a great white ball bowler, but he was an absolute master when it comes to setting batsmen up and forcing them to fall into his traps.

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Yes I can see that happening, but Asif the coach will truly shine in Test cricket and not T20 cricket.

    He himself wasn’t a great white ball bowler, but he was an absolute master when it comes to setting batsmen up and forcing them to fall into his traps.
    Agreed. But @Mamoon isn't the path to Test Cricket through T20s nowadays (unfortunately) especially in Pakistan?

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketingMinds View Post
    Agreed. But @Mamoon isn't the path to Test Cricket through T20s nowadays (unfortunately) especially in Pakistan?
    Yes, unfortunately.

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    PCB should let bygones be bygones and rope him in as a full-time bowling coach.
    I'm not convinced that he has the discipline for such an important role which requires responsibility and him to be a role-model.



  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I'm not convinced that he has the discipline for such an important role which requires responsibility and him to be a role-model.
    Yeah Asifs not cut out for any role of responsibility

    As we have seen with all his shenanigans and these comments hes far too immature and indisciplined to be taken in by the pcb and do a job with his head down


    If pakistan cricket is to move forward they need to stop going back

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I'm not convinced that he has the discipline for such an important role which requires responsibility and him to be a role-model.
    C'mon Saj. This is Pakistan. No body is "doodh-ka-dhula-hua" to be considered a role-model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    A simple look at his Test record against the mighty Aussies gives us a clear picture of how good he was. Add to that, he played 2 matches against arch rivals India in WC's (96' WC, 03' WC) and was given the beating of a lifetime in both the matches.

    He was nothing more than an overrated bowler by Pak fans, who was no where half as good as Wasim Akram.

    Too many Indians here I guess he was 100 times better than Bumrah or your garbage bowlers from the 90s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Asif is extremely over rated. He was a new ball bully and a green top bully. I can pinpoint many matches where he struggled badly on flat wickets and i challenge anyone to pinpoint one spells where he ran through a side with the older ball. If Asif got the same so called doctored balls as Waqar apparently used in his prime, his lack of speed would have rendered him useless with the old ball. As it was Jonathan Trott had shown the world the formula to neutralize Asif in the hundred he scored in the final test in 2010.
    Dont think Sri lanka had a greentop

  34. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketingMinds View Post
    C'mon Saj. This is Pakistan. No body is "doodh-ka-dhula-hua" to be considered a role-model.
    I get what you are saying but let me tell you what Asif said to me about his County stint "I turned up for practice when I wanted, I practiced when I wanted to and I told him them I would turn up for match days when I wanted to".

    Now will this guy really have the discipline to hold a job such as the national bowling coach role.
    Last edited by Saj; 31st March 2021 at 02:57.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Asif is extremely over rated. He was a new ball bully and a green top bully. I can pinpoint many matches where he struggled badly on flat wickets and i challenge anyone to pinpoint one spells where he ran through a side with the older ball. If Asif got the same so called doctored balls as Waqar apparently used in his prime, his lack of speed would have rendered him useless with the old ball. As it was Jonathan Trott had shown the world the formula to neutralize Asif in the hundred he scored in the final test in 2010.
    Sorry when was the last time Pakistan had a "new ball bully". If this was such an easy skill how come over 90% of the bowlers, who have debuted since 2000, have been so trash with exploiting the new ball?

    It's the wickets with the new ball that you need the most to win matches in SENA.

    Going by your analysis, Anderson is overrated because he was a "new ball bully".

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayemgilani86 View Post
    Dont think Sri lanka had a greentop
    In the test match where Asif was effective the pitch had good juice for him. I can pin point many games where Asif was horribly ineffective with the old ball

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    Sorry when was the last time Pakistan had a "new ball bully". If this was such an easy skill how come over 90% of the bowlers, who have debuted since 2000, have been so trash with exploiting the new ball?

    It's the wickets with the new ball that you need the most to win matches in SENA.

    Going by your analysis, Anderson is overrated because he was a "new ball bully".
    Anderson can get wickets with the older ball. He has a much better record in the subcontinent then Asif on flat dusty wickets. I can pin point many matches and innings where Asif was ineffective when the wicket had nothing for him.

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I get what you are saying but let me tell you what Asif said to me about his County stint "I turned up for practice when I wanted, I practiced when I wanted to and I told him them I would turn up for match days when I wanted to".

    Now will this guy really have the discipline to hold a job such as the national bowling coach role.
    Unfortunately his lifestyle outside the field will hurt him in his job. Also I don't think he is someone who will be empathetic to his young charges, a vital trait necessary for a coach.

    He has an excellent bowling brain and if he keeps his head down, he can teach golden tricks with the ball to our future generations

  39. #199
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    Curious how this thread has evolved. Is this the first time one ex-player has slung mud over another following some sort of a fall out? We can broaden our horizons and widen the perimeter to include the entire subcontinent while answering the above.

    Also, how did this become a zero-sum game? Why must Asif be deemed impotent on flat wickets for Waqar to remain an ATG? Similarly, why must Waqar be rendered a serial tamperer who got lucky in order for Asif to maintain his aura?

    Donít know why this is so difficult for people to believe but scratching and tampering were pretty common prior to advent cameras / HD etc. Some benefited by adapting to it, others did not / could not. Trying to think of a country whose players either did not get suspended/caught/admit to it from that era.

    Likewise, some have adapted to the game today and either find more astute ways of roughing up the ball etc. Still goes on in this day and age, the extent and frequency are the only things that have changed.

    Personally, do not care one bit about either category of posts. Have seen Wahab and co. waste an old ball swinging it bananas, and have seen no-name bowlers pick up wickets with far less movement. Good example could be PAK v SAF that recently concluded. Nortje/Ngidi swung it very elaborately only to miss the stumps or get hit for boundaries. Similar for Hassan Ali in the first game.

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayemgilani86 View Post
    Too many Indians here I guess he was 100 times better than Bumrah or your garbage bowlers from the 90s
    Is that the benchmark for Waqar Younis, an ICC Hall of Famer, now ..... Indian bowlers (jokers) from the 90's?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn't arrived yet: Viv Richards

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    Asif was a high class bowler, an intelligent bowler, a bowler who had that ability to work out batsmen and get inside their head. This is why the likes of KP, Hashim Amla etc rate Asif so highly.

    When you talk cricket with him (non controversial and serious stuff), you can see why he was so good. I interviewed him for Wisden (the interview was in last month's magazine) and will be on PakPassion soon. We spoke for nearly 2 hours, it was fascinating, it was like getting inside the mind of a sporting artist and see how they operate.

    Sadly though, for all of his great attributes, he had a few that were not so great too.
    It will remain my lifetime sorrow and wound as a fan that Asif couldn't complete his career and failed to fulfill his supertalent potentiality. What a mesmerising bowler he was. A true loss for the cricket world. My sorrow will never go.

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Anderson can get wickets with the older ball. He has a much better record in the subcontinent then Asif on flat dusty wickets. I can pin point many matches and innings where Asif was ineffective when the wicket had nothing for him.
    The point I'm making is Anderson was also far more reliant on his new ball skills.

    As mentioned in my previous post, you'll find all the Pakistani bowlers, who have debuted since 2000, to be all trash with the new ball except Asif.

    So the reality is he was able to accomplish a skillset which others (before and after him) over a long time span were not able to achieve. The "new ball bully" term that you've coined to describe his abilities just epitomises your lack of understanding.
    Last edited by topspin; 31st March 2021 at 14:15.

  43. #203
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    Whatever Asif says, I guess u still need the sheer talent and madness to bowl zingers at 90kmph which waqqr had in spades.
    For a gen of us indian growing up, he was the guy we all wished was running in for us. In my hostel days, the walls were plastered with posters of the two W's, Just thinking going back - how would some of the 2 w's fans have reacted - reading some of these negative comments...
    If the opposition was 150/2, u'd bet on waqar to have them 175 a o.....such a legend he was...
    That maniacal run up itself was a sight to behold and worth going to see....
    There are two things in common between our two nations - We put down our legends like yesterday's shirt....and we also undeservedly hype up a lot of our cricketers....

  44. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrIc_Mystique View Post
    Whatever Asif says, I guess u still need the sheer talent and madness to bowl zingers at 90kmph which waqqr had in spades.
    For a gen of us indian growing up, he was the guy we all wished was running in for us. In my hostel days, the walls were plastered with posters of the two W's, Just thinking going back - how would some of the 2 w's fans have reacted - reading some of these negative comments...
    If the opposition was 150/2, u'd bet on waqar to have them 175 a o.....such a legend he was...
    That maniacal run up itself was a sight to behold and worth going to see....
    There are two things in common between our two nations - We put down our legends like yesterday's shirt....and we also undeservedly hype up a lot of our cricketers....
    I have said for a long time, that many of the Pakistani cricketing greats are appreciated overseas more than they are in Pakistan.



  45. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I have said for a long time, that many of the Pakistani cricketing greats are appreciated overseas more than they are in Pakistan.
    Being appreciated overseas is one thing; here in this thread we have users commenting on players before they were born.

  46. #206
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    Asif probably isn't wrong here but Asif should be the last person to talk about cheating.

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Being appreciated overseas is one thing; here in this thread we have users commenting on players before they were born.
    As I said, it's based on Waqar's coaching, which is a very flawed way of thinking.

    Waqar was a machine with the ball. An all-time great at international level and in County cricket.



  48. #208
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    Waqar is fast bowling rolls royce , he is definition of a fast bowler , its amazing nobodies are insulting a bonafide legend of the game. According to wisden during many of waqars spells balls used to be checked during county matches and he still used to average in teens.

  49. #209
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    I never saw Waqar or Waseem bowl as I was too young but I was able to see their videos on youtube when I was a kid and Waqar was one of the best bowlers in my opinion, I used to copy his inswinging yorkers whenever I would visit my cousins in Pakistan and end up breaking their toes, seeing them fall over and their wickets uprooted was always a gratifying feeling, I credit Waqar Younis for that.

  50. #210
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    Waqar was a great bowler.
    I recall Asif as a pretty decent bowler himself. Agreed he shouldn't be spewing venom at his former mates and PCB.

    What is it that makes bowlers like Asif so bitter? And there are so many of them so is it a systemic failure?
    Last edited by OMB; 2nd April 2021 at 10:53.

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMB View Post
    Waqar was a great bowler.
    I recall Asif as a pretty decent bowler himself. Agreed he shouldn't be spewing venom at his former mates and PCB.

    What is it that makes bowlers like Asif so bitter? And there are so many of them so is it a systemic failure?
    Asifís bitterness is justified. In spite of being out for 5 years, he was still the best Test seamer in the country.

    PCB discriminated against him on the grounds of ageism. The irony is that had PCB brought him back at the same time as Amir, Asif would have ended up playing more Test matches and would most probably have performed much better than him.

    Considering he would only be playing Test matches, he would have featured in all of the Tests until his retirement including matches in UAE which Amir backed out of.

    Asif, at the age of 38, can still comeback and outshine all these so-called rubbish young talents like Naseem, Musa etc. with just a few months of practice and training.

  52. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I have said for a long time, that many of the Pakistani cricketing greats are appreciated overseas more than they are in Pakistan.
    Lol is that why Australia have never considered Waqar worthy of the bowling coach position in their national team, state team or even a club?

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Lol is that why Australia have never considered Waqar worthy of the bowling coach position in their national team, state team or even a club?
    Waqar couldnít do much against Australia even without tampered balls.

    These ex-Pakistani players are usually more celebrated and romanticized in England because they still suffer from the PTSD of Wasim and Waqar uprooting their stumps both in county cricket and international cricket.

    The English cricket community is yet to recover from the psychological fear of Pakistani cricket which is why they make irrational, cringeworthy comments and overrate Pakistan even today.

    The Australians have a better measure of what Pakistan cricket is and was all about - not much at all.

  54. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Lol is that why Australia have never considered Waqar worthy of the bowling coach position in their national team, state team or even a club?
    His credentials and his achievements as a player don't automatically mean that he would get coaching assignments around the world.

    Some nations prefer local coaches, some prefer specific qualifications too.



  55. #215
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    Don't think anyone can disagree with the cheating allegations. Waqar was also accused of wrongdoings in Qayuum commission by his team mate and he was fined by the commission as well. Waqar is as much shady person as Asif is.

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Lol is that why Australia have never considered Waqar worthy of the bowling coach position in their national team, state team or even a club?
    many great players are terrible coaches , you need to have communication skills and comfort level with players to be a good teacher or coach.
    Also quyyum report has put lots of doubts in peoples minds regarding predisposition of pakistani cricketers to internal politics and shady stuff, most people will rather avoid this drama.

    Waqar is rated very very highly among fast bowling enthusiasts from my experience, he even beat wasim akram in australian cricket board poll for local audience.

    I recently met an indian guy in west, working at an HR postion , when we opened up a bit he was saying how he used to play ranji in 90s and was fastest recorded bowler in circuit at 145 and back than no one used to hit 135 in indian international team, though he switched his ambitions because of severe nepotism and lack of contacts and thus opted for more financial stable career path.

    He told me that at that time all fast bowling apirants in india used to idolize waqar

    btw look at how aussie commies are praising him here

    Last edited by MenInG; 2nd April 2021 at 18:22.

  57. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I have said for a long time, that many of the Pakistani cricketing greats are appreciated overseas more than they are in Pakistan.
    yaar, last year during india's hard lockdown we cousins got together all cricket crazy nutters like me....on zoon call....and we made world XI for each team...i guess when we were on Pak all time XI - the two w's were not even discussed...they were default part of team, i dont recall even dwelling for 2 mins on these...
    Maybe, what u say about being appreciate in other countries might be true...

  58. #218
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    I don't think we will see another bowler like Waqar Younis in our lifetime. 2Ws were on top of their game BEFORE RS was revealed at the world stage. He and Wasim put RS on the map, and WY put the reverse, in reverse swing. From subtle application to full banana swings (pull out the Lara wicket). 2Ws were and are still, recognised as the pioneers of reverse swing.

    And as it has been pointed out. A great bowler doesn't make a great coach in the same way a great player doesn't make a great captain. You cannot teach natural ability. Fact.
    Last edited by Saj; 2nd April 2021 at 20:26.

  59. #219
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    Yeah, yeah whatever! A cheat himself Asif understandably will be a bitter man. His then fiancee Veena Malik left him followed by a Bollywood movie he was supposed to star in that was shelved.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Greatest Pakistani fast bowlers of all time:

    1. Wasim
    2. Imran
    3. Asif
    4. Akhtar
    5. Fazal
    Asif was easily the most talented and skillfull of all of them which is pretty sad

  61. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I get what you are saying but let me tell you what Asif said to me about his County stint "I turned up for practice when I wanted, I practiced when I wanted to and I told him them I would turn up for match days when I wanted to".
    .................
    It's difficult to believe that a county administration would have tolerated this behaviour. Sounds partly like a desi guy boasting.

    Which county (ies) did he play for and I wonder what his record was there.

  62. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNightWatchman View Post
    Asif was easily the most talented and skillfull of all of them which is pretty sad
    Umar akmal was also more talented than a lot of our "lajund" batsman

    But we don't really rate him cause.you also need other things in your armoury.including off field behavior

    Talent, skills alone never cut it

  63. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboii View Post
    Umar akmal was also more talented than a lot of our "lajund" batsman

    But we don't really rate him cause.you also need other things in your armoury.including off field behavior

    Talent, skills alone never cut it
    Umar Akmal lacked the skills to be a batsman as well. His downfall was because of team management using him improperly and subsequently losing his discipline in training. Asif's red flags were his extravagansas off the field. Not because he trained any less or lacked discipline during games. He schooled batsmen like noone else I've seen, and thats not limited to pakistani bowlers. I think Asif was probably the most intelligent and skilled seamer of all time.

  64. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryin Out Loud View Post
    It's difficult to believe that a county administration would have tolerated this behaviour. Sounds partly like a desi guy boasting.

    Which county (ies) did he play for and I wonder what his record was there.
    He played at Leicestershire.

    I spoke to his coach back then and he admitted that "Asif had his issues"



  65. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    He played at Leicestershire.

    I spoke to his coach back then and he admitted that "Asif had his issues"
    I was interested enough to look for more details once you'd mentioned the county.

    According to this link (click on FC records, individual, and search for Asif).

    https://www.leicestershireccc.co.uk/lccc-records.html

    Played 7 games, took 25 wickets at an average of 31.52. Didn't uproot any trees as an overseas pro, for all the posturing.

  66. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Is that the benchmark for Waqar Younis, an ICC Hall of Famer, now ..... Indian bowlers (jokers) from the 90's?
    no hes a million times better than Bumrah whose already considered a legend in India propaganda machinery

  67. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyRabbit View Post
    Waqar's reputation as a bowling coach is interfering with his reputation as a bowler by the angry posters and the young fans.
    This, and so much true.

    The guy is rated as a bowling legend by greats of the game and his contemporaries. And his performances speak for the guy too.

    And here, a bunch of angry posters who don't like Waqar as a coach/person are trying to throw mud at his stellar legacy.

    Now imagine this.

    One of these young angry posters gets a chance to go live on TV at Lord's and talk this same drivel.

    They'll be THROWN OUT from the ground, and banned from the Home of Cricket.

    This is the level of blind, immature hatred shown by some here.


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