"The West Indies have been and continue to be architects of their own demise" : Fazeer Mohammed


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  1. #1
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    "The West Indies have been and continue to be architects of their own demise" : Fazeer Mohammed

    In his latest blog for PakPassion.net, Fazeer Mohammed writes about why the recent losses to Bangladesh should not come as a surprise given the declining standards of West Indies cricket, the positives from Pakistan's hard-fought win over South Africa in the 1st Test and the lessons other nations can learn from New Zealand's rise to become finalists in the inaugural edition of the World Test Championship.




    At the time of writing the West Indies are a day away from taking on Bangladesh in the first match of a two-Test series. So, there is every possibility, assuming you are even interested in what is really a comparatively low-key contest, that the match is starting to take shape in Chattogram even as you are reading this.

    And there’s no getting away from the reality that the Caribbean side, who offered very little resistance in being brushed aside in the preceding three One-Day Internationals, are the underdogs here, more so because they are without several Test regulars including captain Jason Holder and their most experienced batsman, Darren Bravo.

    But the Bangladeshis would have been favourites even if the dozen players who opted out because of concerns over COVID-19 had made the trip. No disrespect to the hosts, who continue to improve in their competitiveness across all formats, however this is the level that West Indies cricket has been for some time, and notwithstanding the occasional outstanding performance or concerted effort, this is where they are likely to remain for the foreseeable future unless some radical transformation takes place in the game back at home.

    Anyone remotely familiar with the declining standards of the former undisputed kings of the game would have been aware of the crippling reality that the domestic game, which involves competition between the six main territories, is at an all-time low. This is why no one really gave the team a chance of competing against Bangladesh in the ODIs, and given that the full-strength team lost a corresponding series 2-0 just over two years ago, very little is expected in the Test format, even with fast bowlers of the calibre of Kemar Roach, Shannon Gabriel and Alzarri Joseph in the squad.

    I am sure you would have heard the saying many times over about a chain only being as strong as the weakest link. In West Indies cricket though, there are so many weak links in the domestic game that even with the best will in the world, even with a letter of encouragement from legendary former captain Sir Clive Lloyd, it was never expected that the players wearing the distinctive burgundy cap in the limited-over matches would have been able to rise significantly above their own mediocre numbers.

    Sure, one or two would have benefited from the chastening experience and it is quite possible that even if they are also swept in the Test series, a couple of relatively new faces can also make a name for themselves. Yet decades of evidence have shown that hardly any of such players ascend to the level of consistent excellence as the numbers are there for all to see.

    So even if you yearn to see a Pakistan versus West Indies series in the manner of their titanic battles of the 1980’s, when three consecutive series between the two best teams in the world finished 1-1, don’t expect a revival anytime soon, certainly not from the Caribbean side.

    While we West Indians remain glum, Pakistanis are rejoicing at Test cricket returning to Karachi and the home side marking the occasion with a hard-fought victory over South Africa. Even in the defeats in New Zealand there were moments, most notably in the stirring rear-guard on the last day of the first Test, when it looked as if the tourists would have won the day.

    It is no secret that many from the Caribbean who have an admiration for Pakistan cricket over the decades see them as kindred spirits from the sub-continent: players with abundant talent who are occasionally prone to self-destruction. There is ample evidence, not merely because of the success of 34-year-old debutant Nauman Ali in the first Test or the similarly late flowering of Fawad Alam (how could he have been ignored for so long by the selectors?) that there is quality in abundance in the country’s domestic game. Yet the challenge is a familiar one: harnessing that talent in a harmonious, productive environment where players feel they belong and are sufficiently liberated to express themselves on the game’s toughest stage.

    For the West Indies in contrast, almost every series or every tour seems to end with a reference of going back to the drawing board, only to commit some of the same mistakes all over again the next time around. Look, for all their travails and the challenges of having to spend more than a decade as cricketing nomads, Pakistan were at the top of the Test rankings just over four years ago. West Indies, who set a world record in team sport in playing for 15 years unbeaten in Test series from 1980 to 1995, have not been anywhere close to the top for more than 20 years.

    There is no point blaming others for West Indies cricket’s failings, even if there is still a relevant argument about the level of control the big three exert on the structure of the game. New Zealand’s rise to the top of the rankings in the past few weeks and their qualification for the final of the World Test Championship is ample evidence that even the smallest of nations can conquer the world by making the most of their limited resources.

    This doesn’t mean that I am giving up on the argument about the level of control India, England and Australia have on the game. Just the number of Tests they have played over the past two decades compared to the other nations reinforces the imbalance.

    However, I must acknowledge that the West Indies have been and continue to be architects of their own demise due to a chronic failure to provide the sort of administrative leadership which demands excellence from all concerned, whether on the field or off it.

    We can only hope for better.
    Last edited by MenInG; 3rd February 2021 at 13:34.


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    I donít think the West Indies have been as close architects of their demise as Fazeer might suggest.

    The West Indies won a Test against England away just a couple months ago and continues to pull off upsets in different formats. If we focus on Test cricket, yes, the quality might not be there as it once was but that is only half the equation.

    You cannot build quality if your teams only play 2 or max 3 Tests per away series and you cannot build quality if your players are going up against folks who regularly play 5 match series.

    This is obviously further exacerbated by West Indiesís T20 and mercenary culture but a handshake (of destruction) is done with two hands.

    How do we expect Shai Hope to develop when his Tests this year, for example, are only 2 Tests against Bangladesh, 2 Tests against Sri Lanka, and 3 Tests against Pakistan?

    To me, thatís absolutely horrific. It is no secret that cricket is heavily dominated by the big 3 who are also much smarter with their scheduling than other teams.

    Where is the West Indies A side? The Pakistan Shaheens are screaming to play more A cricket ó why donít we mutually rectify this issue? It seems to me that weíve simply let the Big 3 take over and assume 90% of it is down to financial dominance, but the truth of the matter is finances allow these boards to hire smart people who donít mess up the basics.

    Why are Weat Indian players given NOCs for T10 and T20 tournaments in every nook and cranny of the world? Are they not already earning enough in the IPL? Why is there not a deliberate focus on limiting this 1-2 leagues only, pulling these guys back into first class cricket, and bringing the much needed quality that Fazeer himself derided the domestic circuit for not having?

    The competitiveness of your domestic circuit is driven by your top performers, where the top 20% of domestic cricketers are responsible for 80% of the quality. There is absolutely no need to self-sabotage and allow these folks to slip through too.

    This decision, of course, would be easier on the players if there were top class first class salaries on offer. After all, thatís how India buys the happiness of its players (even the ones that donít play IPL). So finances do come into play, and this is a thread that if you tug on it, of course stretches back to the Big 3.

    But in the absence of that money, I see no reason why West Indian players are allowed to get rich at the expense of the national team. This is not the playersí fault ó they will make money when and if they can. Itís the boardís fault for allowing it to happen.

    So until and unless we smaller boards grow some gray cells, and understand that we need to 1) stand up against the financial monopoly at the ICC and 2) work to identify solutions like better A tours, limited NOCs, even if we are financially handicapped.

    The West Indies are not architects of their demise. They are simply victim to a mentality of resignation and acceptance of status, opposed to the big 3, and the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh are victim to this too.

    I have no doubt that the quality exists in some form in West Indiesís age group levels and even in domestics. Is it their fault that the board doesnít have the money to guide them with top class facilities or the domestic structure to keep these young guns challenged and hungry?

    The rankings itself might be at their lowest ebb but make no mistake, West Indies is in the very same category as Bangladesh and Pakistan. And that points to a systematic error in the ICCís means of spreading the game, an incompetency of magnanimous proportions that allows only 4 countries, really, to be competitive in world cricket while the rest have gone from world beaters to minnows.

    FIFA, meanwhile, is getting football running across hundreds of countries at seriously competitive levels, and doing a fantastic job at not just marketing the game, but developing it. Developing upcoming countries, sustaining countries that are already established, and helping them into a phase of self-sustainability.

    Cricket once, perhaps around the turn of 2000, looked to explode in popularity across the world. We, the cricket fraternity, have been the architects in its demise.

  3. #3
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    2 problems:
    1. Board doesn't care about WI team's performance
    2. Players are too greedy and too busy to fill up their pockets by playing those nonsense leagues all around the world.

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    Actually, allowing Caribbean players to play in leagues across the globe is what has saved West Indies cricket from going into extinction.

    It has helped them win two World T20s in the previous decade.

    Simply blocking players from playing in leagues will not help them improve in Test cricket.

    West Indies cricket would not have survived without the event of T20 cricket.

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    Much like Pakistan, the lack of county exposure is the major reason behind the demise of West Indies cricket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Much like Pakistan, the lack of county exposure is the major reason behind the demise of West Indies cricket.
    WI have better talent than us but their board is not serious about their team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shafi View Post
    WI have better talent than us but their board is not serious about their team.
    That is true. Pakistan is the least talent cricket nation in history but Caribbean cricket actually has considerable talent.

    Caribbean islands are poor with low human development index. They do not have the resources and finances to be self-sufficient and successful in cricket, which is why their Test success in the past was largely due to the development in county cricket, while their T20 success in the previous decade was largely due to development in franchise cricket.

    West Indies, like Pakistan, will never be a top Test team again.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is true. Pakistan is the least talent cricket nation in history but Caribbean cricket actually has considerable talent.

    Caribbean islands are poor with low human development index. They do not have the resources and finances to be self-sufficient and successful in cricket, which is why their Test success in the past was largely due to the development in county cricket, while their T20 success in the previous decade was largely due to development in franchise cricket.

    West Indies, like Pakistan, will never be a top Test team again.
    Not sure about us with no proper talent but if both WI and Pakistan board invest money on domestic along with pitches, facilities and good coaches WI/Pakistan can be very good team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Actually, allowing Caribbean players to play in leagues across the globe is what has saved West Indies cricket from going into extinction.

    It has helped them win two World T20s in the previous decade.

    Simply blocking players from playing in leagues will not help them improve in Test cricket.

    West Indies cricket would not have survived without the event of T20 cricket.
    You are muddling your argument. IPL is what has allowed West Indies to stay relevant. They have the CPL in addition to this but there is absolutely no sane reason for the West Indies cricket board to greenlight T10 leagues, Canada T20s, Pakistan Super League, and more.

    The rampant mercenary culture has led to the demise of team spirit, the death of a focus on the longer versions of the game, and the destruction of the national team which is rarely able to put up any of its top players in a given game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    You are muddling your argument. IPL is what has allowed West Indies to stay relevant. They have the CPL in addition to this but there is absolutely no sane reason for the West Indies cricket board to greenlight T10 leagues, Canada T20s, Pakistan Super League, and more.

    The rampant mercenary culture has led to the demise of team spirit, the death of a focus on the longer versions of the game, and the destruction of the national team which is rarely able to put up any of its top players in a given game.
    That's exactly my point!!!! Plus WI board members need to be revised as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    You are muddling your argument. IPL is what has allowed West Indies to stay relevant. They have the CPL in addition to this but there is absolutely no sane reason for the West Indies cricket board to greenlight T10 leagues, Canada T20s, Pakistan Super League, and more.
    Blocking players from playing in these leagues is not hampering West Indies from succeeding in Test cricket. Most of the players who play in these leagues are not very good Test cricketers at this point to begin with, and they will not magically become better at Test cricket if they are not allowed to participate in these leagues.

    The rampant mercenary culture has led to the demise of team spirit, the death of a focus on the longer versions of the game, and the destruction of the national team which is rarely able to put up any of its top players in a given game.
    West Indies cricket has been in decline in Test cricket since the mid 90ís, long before the advent of T20 cricket and the rise of franchise cricket.

    They do not have the resources to invest in a proper FC structure, which is why their Test cricket tumbled as soon as counties stopped investing in Caribbean cricketers. The West Indies Test cricketers were developed in the county circuit.

    Team spirit means little when you donít have the quality. Spirit does not compensate for lack of quality. If you are not good enough, you are not good enough regardless of what the team spirit is like.

    The team spirit is actually pretty decent under Holder, and they have some reasonable Test cricketers at the moment which is why they can win a Test match against a big team every now and then.

    However, at the moment, they do not have the quality to win series against the likes of India, England, Australia and New Zealand. The skill-gap is considerable and it becomes apparent over the course of a series.

    However, they are good enough to beat the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and maybe even South Africa in home conditions.

    There is not a strong correlation between the emphasis on T20 cricket and the decline of West Indies Test cricket.

    People talk about it a lot but it is not backed by concrete evidence. Besides, the timelines do not match since the decline of West Indies Test cricket predates the advent of T20 cricket by many years.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Blocking players from playing in these leagues is not hampering West Indies from succeeding in Test cricket. Most of the players who play in these leagues are not very good Test cricketers at this point to begin with, and they will not magically become better at Test cricket if they are not allowed to participate in these leagues.



    West Indies cricket has been in decline in Test cricket since the mid 90’s, long before the advent of T20 cricket and the rise of franchise cricket.

    They do not have the resources to invest in a proper FC structure, which is why their Test cricket tumbled as soon as counties stopped investing in Caribbean cricketers. The West Indies Test cricketers were developed in the county circuit.

    Team spirit means little when you don’t have the quality. Spirit does not compensate for lack of quality. If you are not good enough, you are not good enough regardless of what the team spirit is like.

    The team spirit is actually pretty decent under Holder, and they have some reasonable Test cricketers at the moment which is why they can win a Test match against a big team every now and then.

    However, at the moment, they do not have the quality to win series against the likes of India, England, Australia and New Zealand. The skill-gap is considerable and it becomes apparent over the course of a series.

    However, they are good enough to beat the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and maybe even South Africa in home conditions.

    There is not a strong correlation between the emphasis on T20 cricket and the decline of West Indies Test cricket.

    People talk about it a lot but it is not backed by concrete evidence. Besides, the timelines do not match since the decline of West Indies Test cricket predates the advent of T20 cricket by many years.
    Current WI players cannot play spin so they will be whitewashed by any team in sub-continent. They can only win in their home ground in fast bowling pitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    I don’t think the West Indies have been as close architects of their demise as Fazeer might suggest.

    The West Indies won a Test against England away just a couple months ago and continues to pull off upsets in different formats. If we focus on Test cricket, yes, the quality might not be there as it once was but that is only half the equation.

    You cannot build quality if your teams only play 2 or max 3 Tests per away series and you cannot build quality if your players are going up against folks who regularly play 5 match series.

    This is obviously further exacerbated by West Indies’s T20 and mercenary culture but a handshake (of destruction) is done with two hands.

    How do we expect Shai Hope to develop when his Tests this year, for example, are only 2 Tests against Bangladesh, 2 Tests against Sri Lanka, and 3 Tests against Pakistan?

    To me, that’s absolutely horrific. It is no secret that cricket is heavily dominated by the big 3 who are also much smarter with their scheduling than other teams.

    Where is the West Indies A side? The Pakistan Shaheens are screaming to play more A cricket — why don’t we mutually rectify this issue? It seems to me that we’ve simply let the Big 3 take over and assume 90% of it is down to financial dominance, but the truth of the matter is finances allow these boards to hire smart people who don’t mess up the basics.

    Why are Weat Indian players given NOCs for T10 and T20 tournaments in every nook and cranny of the world? Are they not already earning enough in the IPL? Why is there not a deliberate focus on limiting this 1-2 leagues only, pulling these guys back into first class cricket, and bringing the much needed quality that Fazeer himself derided the domestic circuit for not having?

    The competitiveness of your domestic circuit is driven by your top performers, where the top 20% of domestic cricketers are responsible for 80% of the quality. There is absolutely no need to self-sabotage and allow these folks to slip through too.

    This decision, of course, would be easier on the players if there were top class first class salaries on offer. After all, that’s how India buys the happiness of its players (even the ones that don’t play IPL). So finances do come into play, and this is a thread that if you tug on it, of course stretches back to the Big 3.

    But in the absence of that money, I see no reason why West Indian players are allowed to get rich at the expense of the national team. This is not the players’ fault — they will make money when and if they can. It’s the board’s fault for allowing it to happen.

    So until and unless we smaller boards grow some gray cells, and understand that we need to 1) stand up against the financial monopoly at the ICC and 2) work to identify solutions like better A tours, limited NOCs, even if we are financially handicapped.

    The West Indies are not architects of their demise. They are simply victim to a mentality of resignation and acceptance of status, opposed to the big 3, and the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh are victim to this too.

    I have no doubt that the quality exists in some form in West Indies’s age group levels and even in domestics. Is it their fault that the board doesn’t have the money to guide them with top class facilities or the domestic structure to keep these young guns challenged and hungry?

    The rankings itself might be at their lowest ebb but make no mistake, West Indies is in the very same category as Bangladesh and Pakistan. And that points to a systematic error in the ICC’s means of spreading the game, an incompetency of magnanimous proportions that allows only 4 countries, really, to be competitive in world cricket while the rest have gone from world beaters to minnows.

    FIFA, meanwhile, is getting football running across hundreds of countries at seriously competitive levels, and doing a fantastic job at not just marketing the game, but developing it. Developing upcoming countries, sustaining countries that are already established, and helping them into a phase of self-sustainability.

    Cricket once, perhaps around the turn of 2000, looked to explode in popularity across the world. We, the cricket fraternity, have been the architects in its demise.
    It is always fashionable to bash the Big 3. But the administration of WI, SLC, BD, Zim are highly corrupt.
    I don't need to tell you about the chairmen of PCB before Najam Sethi and Mani.. you know better about what they did to grow their pockets.

    If WI provides sustainable interest and administration really wants to grow the game, and play good quality cricket as a result, they will be invited more like they were in the 1980s.

    Why should BCCI incentivise and pay for a player in Barbados when they have mouths to feed of players in Rajasthan first.
    When Windies players refused to play in 2014 ODI match, BCCI actually offered them money to play and complete the tour.

    South African board and country is also going down in the same direction, of corruption and mismanagement. No wonder a team which was number 1 as few years ago is in doldrums.
    So Stop blaming the others for the failures, remove corruption. That is the root cause of demise in these countries.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    It is always fashionable to bash the Big 3. But the administration of WI, SLC, BD, Zim are highly corrupt.
    I don't need to tell you about the chairmen of PCB before Najam Sethi and Mani.. you know better about what they did to grow their pockets.

    If WI provides sustainable interest and administration really wants to grow the game, and play good quality cricket as a result, they will be invited more like they were in the 1980s.

    Why should BCCI incentivise and pay for a player in Barbados when they have mouths to feed of players in Rajasthan first.
    When Windies players refused to play in 2014 ODI match, BCCI actually offered them money to play and complete the tour.

    South African board and country is also going down in the same direction, of corruption and mismanagement. No wonder a team which was number 1 as few years ago is in doldrums.
    So Stop blaming the others for the failures, remove corruption. That is the root cause of demise in these countries.
    The corruption in PCB is still there otherwise neither of Misbah/Waqar could get top position without meeting job criteria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    It is always fashionable to bash the Big 3. But the administration of WI, SLC, BD, Zim are highly corrupt.
    I don't need to tell you about the chairmen of PCB before Najam Sethi and Mani.. you know better about what they did to grow their pockets.

    If WI provides sustainable interest and administration really wants to grow the game, and play good quality cricket as a result, they will be invited more like they were in the 1980s.

    Why should BCCI incentivise and pay for a player in Barbados when they have mouths to feed of players in Rajasthan first.
    When Windies players refused to play in 2014 ODI match, BCCI actually offered them money to play and complete the tour.

    South African board and country is also going down in the same direction, of corruption and mismanagement. No wonder a team which was number 1 as few years ago is in doldrums.
    So Stop blaming the others for the failures, remove corruption. That is the root cause of demise in these countries.
    BCCI has absolutely no reason to subsidize a Barbadian cricketer. Youíre right. But the fact of the matter is, itís the ICCís responsibility to distribute the wealth and grow the game.

    Corruption is an issue no doubt but mismanagement by these boards is a bigger issue. If it were me, I would have the ICC take over these boards on a temporary basis and increase the funding supply.

    India might have mouths to feed in Rajasthan, but cricket, the global sport, will die very soon if it is restricted to just three nations. It is already dying and we have accepted this for fact, even though the ICC can do more but isnít.

    No matter how much of a stake India has in producing money in the game, the global game will always be more important. Otherwise, 20 years from now, India wonít have anyone other than England and Australia to play with. The money will always be there because of the Indian audience, but the competition wonít be.

    And as that happens, the sport will begin to devalue ó ICC trophies will become triseries cups, the Border Gavaskar will be held twice a year with the winners only given 6 months to celebrate, and 95% of regular cricket viewers will become Indian.

    It is easy to bash the Big 3, indeed ó they donít deserve all the blame and mismanagement and corruption is an issue with smaller boards. But there are solutions to these issues, which can be achieved if the Big 3 (via the ICC) begin to care more about the growth of the global sport rather than their personal pockets.

    It is possible to have a more rigorous auditing structure in place to make sure ICC funds are not mismanaged by smaller boards. It is possible to have ECB and CA qualified consultants appointed with each board to help the game grow better. It is possible to cut the salaries of the Indian national team by 1% and use that money to set up a High Performance academy for U13 and U16 cricketers in Trinidad.

    There are many, many things that can be done. Your solution is to ďremove corruptionĒ. Iím telling you how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    BCCI has absolutely no reason to subsidize a Barbadian cricketer. You’re right. But the fact of the matter is, it’s the ICC’s responsibility to distribute the wealth and grow the game.

    Corruption is an issue no doubt but mismanagement by these boards is a bigger issue. If it were me, I would have the ICC take over these boards on a temporary basis and increase the funding supply.

    India might have mouths to feed in Rajasthan, but cricket, the global sport, will die very soon if it is restricted to just three nations. It is already dying and we have accepted this for fact, even though the ICC can do more but isn’t.

    No matter how much of a stake India has in producing money in the game, the global game will always be more important. Otherwise, 20 years from now, India won’t have anyone other than England and Australia to play with. The money will always be there because of the Indian audience, but the competition won’t be.

    And as that happens, the sport will begin to devalue — ICC trophies will become triseries cups, the Border Gavaskar will be held twice a year with the winners only given 6 months to celebrate, and 95% of regular cricket viewers will become Indian.

    It is easy to bash the Big 3, indeed — they don’t deserve all the blame and mismanagement and corruption is an issue with smaller boards. But there are solutions to these issues, which can be achieved if the Big 3 (via the ICC) begin to care more about the growth of the global sport rather than their personal pockets.

    It is possible to have a more rigorous auditing structure in place to make sure ICC funds are not mismanaged by smaller boards. It is possible to have ECB and CA qualified consultants appointed with each board to help the game grow better. It is possible to cut the salaries of the Indian national team by 1% and use that money to set up a High Performance academy for U13 and U16 cricketers in Trinidad.

    There are many, many things that can be done. Your solution is to “remove corruption”. I’m telling you how.
    You are really giving impractical ideas. Would PCB honchos allow an audit from a CA hired consultant. This thing has not worked even in the global economy, where nation states do not want any outside influence/interference.
    Each country has to solve its own issues, be it regarding corruption in general and same applies to cricket as well.
    I am not for mixing politics and cricket in the cricket section, may be time pass is a better place, but already FATF is blamed as a political tool when the sole purpose of it is to avoid Money laundering.
    You are proposing something similar to that in Cricket.. Lol. Good luck putting that in practice.
    Last edited by hoshiarpurexpress; 3rd February 2021 at 16:44.

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    @Thunderbolt I have an apoplectic view regarding future of cricket and you and many others may not like it. But I believe this will happen in future.
    India, Australia and England will play each other mostly and global competition will reduce, and within India cricket will like BasketBall in the USA, for domestic consumption only with larger version of IPL with international tourneys against few top teams.

    Given the way things are going, it is a strong possibility. Now that will be true death of cricket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    You are really giving impractical ideas. Would PCB honchos allow an audit from a CA hired consultant. This thing has not worked even in the global economy, where nation states do not want any outside influence/interference.
    Each country has to solve its own issues, be it regarding corruption in general and same applies to cricket as well.
    I am not for mixing politics and cricket in the cricket section, may be time pass is a better place, but already FATF is blamed as a political tool when the sole purpose of it is to avoid Money laundering.
    You are proposing something similar to that in Cricket.. Lol. Good luck putting that in practice.
    Itís not about whether PCB would allow it. A financial audit by ICC to investigate corruption, otherwise you canít play international cricket. Fair and simple.

    Donít mix this up with countries, which operate very differently and have far less transparency. Auditing PCB is like auditing a company, not like auditing an entire nation.

    I for one would welcome such an audit and similar audits should be done for all boards.

    If boards being reluctant to this because they are corrupt is the main barrier in your opinion, then all the more reason for ICC to take this seriously.

    By the way, under my model, we are promising smaller boards increased sums of money that they could not otherwise generate, to pour into their domestic infrastructure, which they will be all the more hungry for.

    The likes of Bangladesh and West Indies would love an appropriate consultant provided for free by the ICC, along with a million dollars to help them improve their domestic system.

    Regarding the future of cricket, I have the same view. We donít disagree at all ó this is the most likely scenario. We are fortunate, however, in that we have some time still to resuscitate things.

    If we really, really wanted to save global cricket, then we would invest more attention on these smaller boards. The truth is, we donít really want that. As in, India, New Zealand, Australia, and England are largely fine with the status quo. Most importantly, India is fine with the status quo (they are most important because they constitute the majority demographic).

    In other words, the majority of the people watching the game would rather grow cricket domestically than internationally, and thatís fine. I may disagree with it because as an external fan, I want to see the international arena become more competitive, but my opinion does not matter.

    I am merely suggesting what I would do if I were the ICC. I am not, unfortunately, and this must resign to what is, to put it in your own words, the probable death of cricket.

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoshiarpurexpress View Post
    @Thunderbolt I have an apoplectic view regarding future of cricket and you and many others may not like it. But I believe this will happen in future.
    India, Australia and England will play each other mostly and global competition will reduce, and within India cricket will like BasketBall in the USA, for domestic consumption only with larger version of IPL with international tourneys against few top teams.

    Given the way things are going, it is a strong possibility. Now that will be true death of cricket.
    Agree!!! But there were and corruptions in BIG 3 as well. Current Aussie team has few parchis selection, so as others. But there corruption level is less than 5% where PCB has 60%, WICB 70%, ZCB 80%, SLB 30% and BCB 40% corruptions.
    Unless these boards bring these corruption level under 20% don't see any significant improvement in these teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    Itís not about whether PCB would allow it. A financial audit by ICC to investigate corruption, otherwise you canít play international cricket. Fair and simple.

    Donít mix this up with countries, which operate very differently and have far less transparency. Auditing PCB is like auditing a company, not like auditing an entire nation.

    I for one would welcome such an audit and similar audits should be done for all boards.

    If boards being reluctant to this because they are corrupt is the main barrier in your opinion, then all the more reason for ICC to take this seriously.

    By the way, under my model, we are promising smaller boards increased sums of money that they could not otherwise generate, to pour into their domestic infrastructure, which they will be all the more hungry for.

    The likes of Bangladesh and West Indies would love an appropriate consultant provided for free by the ICC, along with a million dollars to help them improve their domestic system.

    Regarding the future of cricket, I have the same view. We donít disagree at all ó this is the most likely scenario. We are fortunate, however, in that we have some time still to resuscitate things.

    If we really, really wanted to save global cricket, then we would invest more attention on these smaller boards. The truth is, we donít really want that. As in, India, New Zealand, Australia, and England are largely fine with the status quo. Most importantly, India is fine with the status quo (they are most important because they constitute the majority demographic).

    In other words, the majority of the people watching the game would rather grow cricket domestically than internationally, and thatís fine. I may disagree with it because as an external fan, I want to see the international arena become more competitive, but my opinion does not matter.

    I am merely suggesting what I would do if I were the ICC. I am not, unfortunately, and this must resign to what is, to put it in your own words, the probable death of cricket.
    Valid points and I agree to what you said in this post. Unfortunately, this will be hard to implement unless some visionary ppl come or better, cricketers with integrity come to ICC rather then business suits.


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    It all depends what the outlook of the game is.

    Cricket has ceased being about the game and more about business. Much like the Premier League is.

    No doubt the fans will still care, but, it' all about the money for the boards and CEO's.

    As long as CA, BCCI and ECB Officials make their money and throw scraps to the Windies board... The status quo will remain.

    ICC are fine so long as the boards are fine.
    The only board that had a backbone was the PCB. The Banladeshi, Sri Lanka (apart from Ranatunga), SAF and WB Boards all assumed they'd be taken care off by sucking up to the "big3". Clearly it backfired.

    I don't blame Windies players a single bit for chasing the T20 Franchises like the IPL, PSL and CPL.
    Last edited by observer1; 3rd February 2021 at 18:16.

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    West Indies do not have talent problem. They are simply highly disorganized (both players and board).

    Players ditch the national team for some quick bucks in T20 leagues. This is where the problem lies.


    Bangladeshi Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt14 View Post
    I donít think the West Indies have been as close architects of their demise as Fazeer might suggest.

    The West Indies won a Test against England away just a couple months ago and continues to pull off upsets in different formats. If we focus on Test cricket, yes, the quality might not be there as it once was but that is only half the equation.

    You cannot build quality if your teams only play 2 or max 3 Tests per away series and you cannot build quality if your players are going up against folks who regularly play 5 match series.

    This is obviously further exacerbated by West Indiesís T20 and mercenary culture but a handshake (of destruction) is done with two hands.

    How do we expect Shai Hope to develop when his Tests this year, for example, are only 2 Tests against Bangladesh, 2 Tests against Sri Lanka, and 3 Tests against Pakistan?

    To me, thatís absolutely horrific. It is no secret that cricket is heavily dominated by the big 3 who are also much smarter with their scheduling than other teams.

    Where is the West Indies A side? The Pakistan Shaheens are screaming to play more A cricket ó why donít we mutually rectify this issue? It seems to me that weíve simply let the Big 3 take over and assume 90% of it is down to financial dominance, but the truth of the matter is finances allow these boards to hire smart people who donít mess up the basics.

    Why are Weat Indian players given NOCs for T10 and T20 tournaments in every nook and cranny of the world? Are they not already earning enough in the IPL? Why is there not a deliberate focus on limiting this 1-2 leagues only, pulling these guys back into first class cricket, and bringing the much needed quality that Fazeer himself derided the domestic circuit for not having?

    The competitiveness of your domestic circuit is driven by your top performers, where the top 20% of domestic cricketers are responsible for 80% of the quality. There is absolutely no need to self-sabotage and allow these folks to slip through too.

    This decision, of course, would be easier on the players if there were top class first class salaries on offer. After all, thatís how India buys the happiness of its players (even the ones that donít play IPL). So finances do come into play, and this is a thread that if you tug on it, of course stretches back to the Big 3.

    But in the absence of that money, I see no reason why West Indian players are allowed to get rich at the expense of the national team. This is not the playersí fault ó they will make money when and if they can. Itís the boardís fault for allowing it to happen.

    So until and unless we smaller boards grow some gray cells, and understand that we need to 1) stand up against the financial monopoly at the ICC and 2) work to identify solutions like better A tours, limited NOCs, even if we are financially handicapped.

    The West Indies are not architects of their demise. They are simply victim to a mentality of resignation and acceptance of status, opposed to the big 3, and the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh are victim to this too.

    I have no doubt that the quality exists in some form in West Indiesís age group levels and even in domestics. Is it their fault that the board doesnít have the money to guide them with top class facilities or the domestic structure to keep these young guns challenged and hungry?

    The rankings itself might be at their lowest ebb but make no mistake, West Indies is in the very same category as Bangladesh and Pakistan. And that points to a systematic error in the ICCís means of spreading the game, an incompetency of magnanimous proportions that allows only 4 countries, really, to be competitive in world cricket while the rest have gone from world beaters to minnows.

    FIFA, meanwhile, is getting football running across hundreds of countries at seriously competitive levels, and doing a fantastic job at not just marketing the game, but developing it. Developing upcoming countries, sustaining countries that are already established, and helping them into a phase of self-sustainability.

    Cricket once, perhaps around the turn of 2000, looked to explode in popularity across the world. We, the cricket fraternity, have been the architects in its demise.
    I don't think one can blame T20 leagues given West Indies have been declining since 1997. If anything, these leagues have enabled WI to win two T20 World Cups and kept interest alive.

    There's two real issues. First, the standard of WI FC cricket is mediocre. You're hard pressed to find any batsman averaging over 40. And unlike many of their past greats, the finishing school of county cricket is no longer an option.

    Second is a chronic lack of investment. WI will never generate as much revenue as Pakistan or Bangladesh, forget the Big 3. That's due to the small population, competition from other sports and time zone difference making their television product less lucrative to the all-important subcontinental audience. That means less money into infrastructure and central contracts - which pay a mere fraction of what T20 franchises can afford. So can you blame players for choosing the T20 road ?

    However there are potential solutions. All those challenges I mentioned can be applied to New Zealand, yet look at how well they're competing with limited resources. WICB should learn from their NZC counterparts.

    Also, look ICC will not become Sweden overnight and adopt principles of egalitarianism but there are common sense solutions. What non-Big 3 boards struggle with the most is cost of staging international cricket. It takes around $1m to stage a Test match. The cost of maintaining grounds, booking accomodation etc is borne entirely by the home side. Meanwhile although the home board keeps all the revenue, there's no money to made from a Test series unless the Big Boys are in town !

    So increasing the size of the Test Match Fund would help alleviate some of the financial pressures. I agree with the suggestion of harsher sanctions on corrupt boards too - Sri Lanka and South Africa have been subject to government interference for years yet unlike Zimbabwe, ICC haven't banned them so this double standard cannot continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That is true.
    Pakistan is the least talent cricket nation in history
    but Caribbean cricket actually has considerable talent.

    Caribbean islands are poor with low human development index. They do not have the resources and finances to be self-sufficient and successful in cricket, which is why their Test success in the past was largely due to the development in county cricket, while their T20 success in the previous decade was largely due to development in franchise cricket.

    West Indies, like Pakistan, will never be a top Test team again.
    Oh dear, Pakistan are such a least talented cricket team in history that they have the 4th best W/L ratio in test cricket's history behind Australia, England and South Africa only. Do you seriously listen to yourself?

  26. #25
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    Breaks my heart to see the once great, dominant and proud West Indies Test team, now reduced to a very poor and weak team, particularly when it comes to their batsmen.

    They have produced legends over the years, now they produce a few white-ball cricketers earning a living by not playing for their own nation.



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    Chris Gayle’s pick and choose attitude has done more damage to WICB than anything!

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    WICB has been managed very poorly for last 15 years atleast with major walkouts of players due to contracts negotiations and other stuff. WICB probably doesn't have much budget either to keep the players together for all their series.

    It's difficult for a board to exert its influence in 6 different countries and oversee cricket development I guess.

    The individual cricket boards of all islands should invest more in their domestic circuit for FC and LA cricket and all the teams from the islands should devise a schedule to play each other.

    Currently, they are producing good t20 players and that's it. Majority of their batters average in 20s in FC and LA and bowlers have extremely skewed bowling averages of sub 20 indicating the pitches and conditions have been far more good standard.

    In addition to that, most of their guys pick and choose even at domestic level, I have seen atleast 20 players who continue to play t20 cricket but left FC and LA cricket 5 or 6 years ago. Money would have a big say in that. But they should work on stuff that they can do. They also need to host cricket as much as possible as that is the only way for their board to generate money. WI probably host least amount of international cricket after the associates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rana View Post
    Chris Gayle’s pick and choose attitude has done more damage to WICB than anything!
    He didn't sign the central contract in the first place dating back to 2010 or even before that.

    Sunil Narine has damaged their cricket even more by refusing to play any international cricket after being established as a t20 mercenary.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyRabbit View Post
    He didn't sign the central contract in the first place dating back to 2010 or even before that.

    Sunil Narine has damaged their cricket even more by refusing to play any international cricket after being established as a t20 mercenary.
    And many other have followed in their footsteps.

    Look at the likes of Andre Russell who should have played a lot more for West Indies than he has.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    And many other have followed in their footsteps.

    Look at the likes of Andre Russell who should have played a lot more for West Indies than he has.
    Yes but how can a board in poor financial state offer lucrative contracts for their players or their board is not in that bad state as they tell everyone. Jason Holder after the England tour asked england to tour WI because WICB only makes profit the big 3 tour. How much of truth was in that statement?

  32. #31
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    The ongoing T10 League is full of West Indian cricketers.

    In years to come they will only play T10 and T20s.
    Last edited by Saj; 6th February 2021 at 00:14.



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    It has been really disappointing as a cricket fan that how almost whole last generation of Windies cricketers dedicated their whole careers to T20 leagues. Even with them Windies might not have been world beater but, they would have been more competitive for sure.

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    Pakistan and West Indies are quite similar in a way as they once both were decent teams and now look at where they stand amongst the rest.

    The board and players are both to blame for bad selections neglecting players for the formats they should have played for and represented their country. Players get the blame too for not putting in the hard yards to fulfill their goals and achieve much more than they have.

  35. #34
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    Talk Nah Fazeer

    Brilliant West Indies today to win the 1st Test from a near impossible position


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    The talent is obviously there but not the system to properly nurture these guys.

  37. #36
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    Today's performance whilst amazing is a flash in the pan.

    There has to be more consistency in all areas of West Indies cricket and it will be interesting to see where the likes of Mayers are in a couple of years time.



  38. #37
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    West Indies continuing to surprise everyone! Amazing


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    West Indies have done well in Bangladesh. But, can they repeat this performance in other countries? They haven't done that lately.


    Bangladeshi Man

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    Love how threads like these get bumped during games and then by the end there is egg on certain people's faces.

    West Indies decline in tests started in the 90s as already mentioned. These West Indies stars who play in T20 leagues aren't very good first class players so not sure why @Saj is having pot shots at them. They know what they are good at and are maximising their ability in that format.

    I think West Indies can be a good test team at home but they obviously will never get back to those glory days from the 70s and 80s as it is nigh on impossible to replace players of that quality,especially a full team . It's boring seeing people complain about West Indies not being as good as 70s and 80s, they don't have the first class system to produce those players , and as I mentioned it's near impossible to replace those 70s and 80s players.

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    Legendary former West Indies captain, Clive Lloyd, has called for a redoubling of efforts to get regional bowlers to achieve peak fitness levels as part of realizing ambitions to consistently challenge the world’s best.

    In assessing the difference between the fitness levels of some of the current crop of bowlers and those who dominated oppositions in his time, Lloyd admitted that the players of yesteryear had the advantage of much heavier involvement in English County Cricket.

    “Joel Garner was a big fellow, but he was terribly fit. Walsh was a big fellow, tall fellow, but he was fit. Those guys were accustomed to playing in County cricket, where you would have to bowl four spells a day and travel the next day and start again. They got accustomed to that, our guys are not accustomed to that,” Lloyd told the Mason and Guest radio program.

    He, however, insists there should be no excuses when it comes to athletes being in the very best physical shape for cricket.

    “We should have our young men fit, we have the climate and we have the coaches. You should have fitness guys there who are strong, mentally, like Dennis Waite. When he says run four laps, you have to run four laps,” he added.

    “We don’t do enough of that. I think that is why our players are not bowling as many overs as they should. You ask Malcolm Marshal at 4:30 in the afternoon ‘Malcolm I’d like four overs from you’. He would say ‘no skip, I will give you six’. That’s the sort of thing you need, Walsh wanting to bowl, Crofty you can’t get the ball out of his hands. We have to get that kind of hunger again.”

    https://www.sportsmax.tv/index.php/c...-return-to-top


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