Michael Vaughan: "I'm named in the Azeem Rafiq report - but I totally deny any accusation of racism" - Page 4


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  1. #241
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    For some reason this thing with Vaughan (which is really bad) got me thinking about Dean Jones and his Hashim Amla remark namely “the t*rrorist has taken another wicket” which wasn’t just witnessed, it was recorded on commentary.

    From what I understand Dean apologised to his colleagues, to the viewers and the fans, and personally to Amla very quickly after it had all happened. Dean was then welcomed back into the public fold, he kept working, and he remained very popular throughout the rest of his broadcasting career.

    There is a lesson here for Michael Vaughan: take ownership of your actions, engage with any feedback, and issue a sincere apology to those you have harmed… and there may yet be a route through to a media platform for you.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    For some reason this thing with Vaughan (which is really bad) got me thinking about Dean Jones and his Hashim Amla remark namely “the t*rrorist has taken another wicket” which wasn’t just witnessed, it was recorded on commentary.

    From what I understand Dean apologised to his colleagues, to the viewers and the fans, and personally to Amla very quickly after it had all happened. Dean was then welcomed back into the public fold, he kept working, and he remained very popular throughout the rest of his broadcasting career.

    There is a lesson here for Michael Vaughan: take ownership of your actions, engage with any feedback, and issue a sincere apology to those you have harmed… and there may yet be a route through to a media platform for you.
    Agreed, he should have apologised and said that he made the remarks as friendly banter at the time but now realises they were hurtful and racist and takes full responsibility and apologises unreservedly.

    It might have generated some discussion and people would have moved on soon. Ollie Robinson came back into the side after a brief hiatus. Dean Jones was back in action soon too. It was not career ending by any means.

    I think Vaughan panicked and decided to go for a categorical denial. Problem is he made the remarks to multiple people and they corroborated it. Now he can't go back on his denial

  3. #243
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    If he said it, now three people saying he did. He should have just said it was error in judgement, I am not his biggest fan but if this is all he has done then, he should just take on the chin apologise and move forward. No one is 100% perfect.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Before non-UK resident Asians pull out their hymn sheets, ‘Your lot’ is not a racist comment. Scots, Irish, and Welsh are at the same receiving end, not to mention countless UK demographics. British humour just like desi humour!

    Stop pretending Asians are innocent when it comes to racism. I have heard far more racist comments from desis compared with White brits.

    Enough is enough. Stop riding on the bandwagon. If YCCC was inherently racist, neither Adil would be playing for England nor Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar for Yorkshire.
    If you're good enough, you will usually make it regardless of your colour, religion etc.

    Adil, Moeen, Ajmal Shahzad, Saqib Mahmood, Monty, Ravi Bopara all made it but lets be real, they are good cricketers not greats.

    I think institutional racism does exist in clubs but this is being confused with holding players back, there is a difference. Racists exists in all communities, from all backgrounds. You will find them in your local shop. your work place, your gym etc. But if the club is not stopping progression because of race, only then does it become a racist institution. You cannot control the minds of people, you can control fairness in a business, club etc.

    As for Vaughan his twitter posts of London will seal the deal on him. There is no way he can claim he has no issues with race after his post and now numerous witnesses. He will be with the likes of Ron Atkinson in racist room 101 for eternity now.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by drubwrubnat View Post
    We are lucky to have a firsthand voice on the matter,and it only beckons that we would urge folks to please not be dismissive, rather if we could scratch the surface, it might provide perspective.

    1. With humility, Im interested to know, if the overall approach towards Asians/ you lets say, was with malice in mind or lets say a teenage belligerence

    2. How would you honestly assess the chances of a talented player not making the cut due to race bias

    3. Any incidents when you how handled a tough situation. Was your experience all bad, or there was some good things with your stint at the club.
    I was actually going to write a second post directly after explaining exactly what you asked. Apologies if this is not coherent, it’s just my own thoughts over things that happened years ago.

    Unlike these instances raised by Azeem, I never faced any blatant outward racism. I wish I had.

    This might sound ridiculous but it’s exactly what the issue was. Had there been a direct comment, I have some belief I would have either stood up for myself, or notified someone.

    Instead what transpired was an environment where I constantly felt like an outsider. Everyone constantly drinking beer (obviously not the kids) and eating specifically bacon sandwiches. Not that it bothers me what someone does but it was very clear that I was standing out like a store thumb and no one was making any effort to make a 14/15 year kid feel included. In fact the undertones were almost the opposite. By that I mean the general looks and mumbled hellos.

    Within the sport itself, I was definitely given adverse treatment compared to others - in regards to selection usually. I was also always only given a few minutes of batting in the nets (something I was terrible at, I was a fast bowler as per the stereotype) and never really ever helped to improve. Only after I was 18 and playing with friends did I start to play basic defensive shots/ drives and realised how ridiculous it was that over 5 years of paying a club, they never taught me the skills of how to hold a bat properly.

    To be clear - I was never talented enough to play even county level nor was it ever more than a passion/hobby for me alongside my studies. But I can certainly say that the environment demotivated me and caused me to be a considerably worse cricketer than I could have been. I stayed because my best friend (who was white, lovely guy but so oblivious that he wouldn’t even know what to do had he picked up on it) also played for them, it was close to home, I was set in the routine and it felt far more intimidating to start at a new club after all the discomfort than to just bear through what I had.

    Looking back on it now - I wonder how much of it was due to malice and how much was due to unconscious bias. There could be a news story about a ‘Muslim’ grooming gang or a group of lads from Bradford acting like idiots and the coach/ a parent/ one of the players would come to training and associate the Asian player with that negativity.

    I don’t think the people there were bad people at all. Many of the kids were my friends and the parents caring. I can pin point a number of people who were incredibly helpful. But the general environment was where the issue lay.

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  7. #246
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    Some the comments on here are a joke , some people trying to deflect on the issue at hand and people saying Asians are racist too etc get a grip of your pathetic selves.

    As someone from uk and has had close friends and family try to breakthrough into professional and semi professional cricket, let me tell you this, there does seem to be a culture within counties and some clubs that if you do not fit into “their culture“ you will not really be accepted unless you are really a stand out Asian player. I’ve heard many stories of Pakistani kids being judged i.e on the fact that they have bought a C A bat to a trial. Basically if the way you are does not fit into their cardboard cutout then someone who may be equal in skill who does fit the picture will most likely go through and so on.

    All these guys saying well Moeen Ali got in etc, let me tell you this Moeen Ali when he was a kid was so exceptional they had no choice. Try to find stories of how he was smashing records when he was a kid in school etc.

    The system from what I’ve seen is institutionally racist, that does not mean that no Asian whatsoever does not get selected. Unless your really exceptionally good and stand out from the rest then your fine , but many may not get selected simply because they do not fit that cardboard cutout. Therefore kids of certain backgrounds cannot then excel at the grassroots level. The argument of England
    Selecting players of different backgrounds is different because I’m referring to the grassroots level which develop you to the higher level. Majority of us Uk Pakistanis come from working class backgrounds and have our own identity and simply do not fit into the middle class image the clubs and counties seem to want.

  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nado_ View Post
    Some the comments on here are a joke , some people trying to deflect on the issue at hand and people saying Asians are racist too etc get a grip of your pathetic selves.

    As someone from uk and has had close friends and family try to breakthrough into professional and semi professional cricket, let me tell you this, there does seem to be a culture within counties and some clubs that if you do not fit into “their culture“ you will not really be accepted unless you are really a stand out Asian player. I’ve heard many stories of Pakistani kids being judged i.e on the fact that they have bought a C A bat to a trial. Basically if the way you are does not fit into their cardboard cutout then someone who may be equal in skill who does fit the picture will most likely go through and so on.

    All these guys saying well Moeen Ali got in etc, let me tell you this Moeen Ali when he was a kid was so exceptional they had no choice. Try to find stories of how he was smashing records when he was a kid in school etc.

    The system from what I’ve seen is institutionally racist, that does not mean that no Asian whatsoever does not get selected. Unless your really exceptionally good and stand out from the rest then your fine , but many may not get selected simply because they do not fit that cardboard cutout. Therefore kids of certain backgrounds cannot then excel at the grassroots level. The argument of England
    Selecting players of different backgrounds is different because I’m referring to the grassroots level which develop you to the higher level. Majority of us Uk Pakistanis come from working class backgrounds and have our own identity and simply do not fit into the middle class image the clubs and counties seem to want.
    You hit the nail on the head, even word is true. Even players who are of different backgrounds even when selected take a long time cement their spot. All those saying it is the figment of those players imagination are just be disingenuous or do not understand England cricket....full middle /upper middle class private school boys!

  9. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum363 View Post
    I was actually going to write a second post directly after explaining exactly what you asked. Apologies if this is not coherent, it’s just my own thoughts over things that happened years ago.

    Unlike these instances raised by Azeem, I never faced any blatant outward racism. I wish I had.

    This might sound ridiculous but it’s exactly what the issue was……

    l. But the general environment was where the issue lay.
    This is an incredibly self aware and insightful post.

    There are overtly racist environments that one can react to and try deal with. That’s a comparatively simple issue.

    But much more complex are the environments where minorities feel a sense of cultural and social exclusion that’s a bit harder to explain or pin down. The majority community may be nice, but you still find yourself out of place because the end result is in some way still exclusionary. Whether that’s racism or juat social exclusion can vary by situation.

  10. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    For some reason this thing with Vaughan (which is really bad) got me thinking about Dean Jones and his Hashim Amla remark namely “the t*rrorist has taken another wicket” which wasn’t just witnessed, it was recorded on commentary.

    From what I understand Dean apologised to his colleagues, to the viewers and the fans, and personally to Amla very quickly after it had all happened. Dean was then welcomed back into the public fold, he kept working, and he remained very popular throughout the rest of his broadcasting career.

    There is a lesson here for Michael Vaughan: take ownership of your actions, engage with any feedback, and issue a sincere apology to those you have harmed… and there may yet be a route through to a media platform for you.
    I am saddened and disappointed in Vaughan whom I admired as batsman and skipper. He could have taken it on the chin like Ballance but instead has tried to brazen it out, so I cannot see a way back for him in UK broadcasting.

    My old Nan told me “Be sure, your sins will find you out.”

  11. #250
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    Vaughan will fit right in the Fox commentary panel for the Ashes with junior making cab driver jokes and skull making fun of ethnic names that are difficult to pronounce.

  12. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    My dad taught me that I could speak their language but they couldn't speak ours - so who was superior?
    On the other hand, you need to reside in their country but their folks needn't be in yours.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  13. #252
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    You have to feel sorry for Vaughan.

    People with victim mentality, failures looking to make a quick buck and other opportunists are all over him like a rash.

    He is going to get vilified for this because everyone is too afraid to speak their minds these days and everyone has stand in like like sheep, but you have to ask yourself - is making a casual racist remark about these Asian players worse than Azeem Rafique publicly abusing his coach for dropping him from the U-19 team?

    I certainly don’t think so. I hope Vaughan stands his ground and doesn’t buckle under pressure. The only way you can tackle this nonsense is to be firm in your stance.

    Leave the poor guy alone and grow a thicker skin. Pakistanis/Indians will make all kinds of racist jokes but when a white guy makes them the punchline, they cannot digest it.

    Not a single Pakistani poster thumping his chest in this thread would let his son/daughter marry a black man, but that hasn’t deterred them from a making beeline to give lectures on racism and discrimination.

    Hypocrisy and self-righteousness are far bigger problems than casual racism.

  14. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    My dad taught me that I could speak their language but they couldn't speak ours - so who was superior?
    The person that does not think he is superior to another person.

  15. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I am saddened and disappointed in Vaughan whom I admired as batsman and skipper. He could have taken it on the chin like Ballance but instead has tried to brazen it out, so I cannot see a way back for him in UK broadcasting.

    My old Nan told me “Be sure, your sins will find you out.”
    You’re right. It is very disappointing.

    It has also made me uncomfortable about Vaughan’s successful England team, which retrospectively as well as being incredibly talented was also incredibly White.

    I think he’s finished.

  16. #255
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    Scanning through this thread, I'm glad the days of chamchagiri and slavish nodding along and smiling to the old colonial masters are over.

    What has changed now is that, with some exceptions (see some of the other posts in this thread) we no longer suffer from an inferiority complex. So more power to men like Azeem. I hope he ends some careers.

  17. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babeikh View Post
    So more power to men like Azeem. I hope he ends some careers.
    I do understand this perspective and where you are coming from, but these outcomes are unlikely to be conciliatory, so I question whether the desire for somebody to go out there and end careers (which I don’t think Azeem is looking to do here) is really going to move things forward in the long term. Rather, there needs to be an independent truth and reconciliation commission created for all of these matters, with testimony heard from a wide range of voices.

  18. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastimasti View Post
    Australia seems to be fine with hiring racists it seems.

    on the topic, Rashid's statement, this is the biggest bullet in the whole gun! It's about time and Rashid really needs to make himself available this Tuesday but either way, Vaughan should not be allowed on nay cricket comms or show again.
    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    Forget the media career. He needs to be punished in a severe way.
    I think what makes the Vaughan incident quite bad is the outright denial. If he owns it and said look I apologise, I was a different person then etc, then people may have forgiven him. His denial leads to people feeling anger as I think is demonstrated in both of your posts.

    For a trained media professional, it’s surprising how little Vaughan understands about perception!

  19. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I do understand this perspective and where you are coming from, but these outcomes are unlikely to be conciliatory, so I question whether the desire for somebody to go out there and end careers (which I don’t think Azeem is looking to do here) is really going to move things forward in the long term. Rather, there needs to be an independent truth and reconciliation commission created for all of these matters, with testimony heard from a wide range of voices.
    I understand your POV too - for me, having a testimony and conversation is not really enough. It's been done before, and after a while it gets forgotten and then a while later we are having the same conversation again with different names.

    'Centrism' doesn't bring change - we have to be radical.

    Of course only those who deserve to have careers ended should have their careers ended!

  20. #259
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    I think attention seeking posters (no names so I don’t feed their need for attention) who have not experienced similar racism because they lived in Pakistan their whole life should shut up.

    Living in Pakistan, won’t get you called a “Paki”, or a “terrorist” etc because we are all Pakistanis in Pakistan. It’s different when you’re a minority in the UK or somewhere else.

    If you haven’t experienced it, you shouldn’t air your silly thoughts. It’s not about getting thicker skin. Racism is genuinely hurtful and anyone who is downplaying this needs to stay away from this thread and seek attention elsewhere.

  21. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman View Post
    I think what makes the Vaughan incident quite bad is the outright denial. If he owns it and said look I apologise, I was a different person then etc, then people may have forgiven him. His denial leads to people feeling anger as I think is demonstrated in both of your posts.

    For a trained media professional, it’s surprising how little Vaughan understands about perception!

    Yep, literally all Vaughan had to do was say he made a comment which he thought was funny, it was made as a light hearted comment - he didn't understand it at the time but he now understands how offensive such comments can be. He apologises. Maybe he could have even gone on some diversity education course or something. Within a few months he would have been back.

    Now he has just dug himself a hole and it's getting deeper and deeper.


  22. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman View Post
    I think what makes the Vaughan incident quite bad is the outright denial. If he owns it and said look I apologise, I was a different person then etc, then people may have forgiven him. His denial leads to people feeling anger as I think is demonstrated in both of your posts.

    For a trained media professional, it’s surprising how little Vaughan understands about perception!
    Yes, his outright denial is a major issue, meaning that he is lying if indeed the allegations are true, which I have no reason in believing considering a current, big name England international has put his name to it too.

  23. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by as-95 View Post
    I think attention seeking posters (no names so I don’t feed their need for attention) who have not experienced similar racism because they lived in Pakistan their whole life should shut up.

    Living in Pakistan, won’t get you called a “****”, or a “terrorist” etc because we are all Pakistanis in Pakistan. It’s different when you’re a minority in the UK or somewhere else.

    If you haven’t experienced it, you shouldn’t air your silly thoughts. It’s not about getting thicker skin. Racism is genuinely hurtful and anyone who is downplaying this needs to stay away from this thread and seek attention elsewhere.
    Yep - goes back to what I was saying about the 'inferiority complex'. It's clear who has it here and who doesn't. Also it is clear who is pushing their own issues and prejudices onto others, casting judgement on others who they know nothing about.

  24. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by as-95 View Post
    I think attention seeking posters (no names so I don’t feed their need for attention) who have not experienced similar racism because they lived in Pakistan their whole life should shut up.

    Living in Pakistan, won’t get you called a “****”, or a “terrorist” etc because we are all Pakistanis in Pakistan. It’s different when you’re a minority in the UK or somewhere else.

    If you haven’t experienced it, you shouldn’t air your silly thoughts. It’s not about getting thicker skin. Racism is genuinely hurtful and anyone who is downplaying this needs to stay away from this thread and seek attention elsewhere.
    It’s not just about being called the P word or terrorist. No one will dare to call you that publically anymore because they will be shut down and cancelled by the woke society.

    But the sense of social exclusion is the one that is more haunting than abusive words. You have to live in the west ad a Muslim to understand the feeling of being ‘excluded’ due to your otherness to truly understand the trauma. It’s slowly changing, just like attitudes towards LGBTQ have changed. But how sad!

  25. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You have to feel sorry for Vaughan.

    People with victim mentality, failures looking to make a quick buck and other opportunists are all over him like a rash.

    He is going to get vilified for this because everyone is too afraid to speak their minds these days and everyone has stand in like like sheep, but you have to ask yourself - is making a casual racist remark about these Asian players worse than Azeem Rafique publicly abusing his coach for dropping him from the U-19 team?

    I certainly don’t think so. I hope Vaughan stands his ground and doesn’t buckle under pressure. The only way you can tackle this nonsense is to be firm in your stance.

    Leave the poor guy alone and grow a thicker skin. Pakistanis/Indians will make all kinds of racist jokes but when a white guy makes them the punchline, they cannot digest it.

    Not a single Pakistani poster thumping his chest in this thread would let his son/daughter marry a black man, but that hasn’t deterred them from a making beeline to give lectures on racism and discrimination.

    Hypocrisy and self-righteousness are far bigger problems than casual racism.
    You have to feel sorry for Vaughan….

    You have to feel sorry for him having the privilege of never being judged for his colour in England

    You have to feel sorry for him having the honour to captain his county and country for the most part of his career

    You have to feel sorry for him being in a position where he had to deal with a few players of colour during his captaincy tenure, whereas other counties and captains may not have 1% of this racial dynamic to deal with in a pro white sport like cricket in England upto the 90s

    You really have to feel sorry for him because it was ok to single out Asians for banter in his time, but it wouldn’t be ok now.

    Maybe we feel sorry for you as well Mamoon?

  26. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usman View Post
    I think what makes the Vaughan incident quite bad is the outright denial. If he owns it and said look I apologise, I was a different person then etc, then people may have forgiven him. His denial leads to people feeling anger as I think is demonstrated in both of your posts.

    For a trained media professional, it’s surprising how little Vaughan understands about perception!
    Yes MV should have acknowledged what happened & apologised for being crass and insensitive. I think this scenario would already be on the way to moving forward for him, if he had done that. Rather than going all “white fragility”. Now he looks like a denialist who is dishonest and seemingly guilty as sin.

  27. #266
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    I would add that Adil Rashid effectively testifying against MV by corroborating Azeem’s account is very big indeed. As a current and experienced England player who is generally respected, it is not to say that Adil “needed” to do what I am about to say, because that is ultimately up to Adil: but just thinking about his career, the salacious appetite of journalists, and the context of ongoing dressing room dynamics, it’s quite possible that Adil sought the private counsel of someone like Eoin Morgan or Chris Silverwood, his captain or head coach, before he put these comments on the record. Were this to be the case, it would suggest that the present England team (pleasingly) is willing to thoroughly distance itself from MV & to stand up for what is right.

  28. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I would add that Adil Rashid effectively testifying against MV by corroborating Azeem’s account is very big indeed. As a current and experienced England player who is generally respected, it is not to say that Adil “needed” to do what I am about to say, because that is ultimately up to Adil: but just thinking about his career, the salacious appetite of journalists, and the context of ongoing dressing room dynamics, it’s quite possible that Adil sought the private counsel of someone like Eoin Morgan or Chris Silverwood, his captain or head coach, before he put these comments on the record. Were this to be the case, it would suggest that the present England team (pleasingly) is willing to thoroughly distance itself from MV & to stand up for what is right.
    Absolutely.

    Rafiq's own conduct as a player and subsequent failure to make it his claims of the club being institutionality racist quite polarising.

    Rashid is a model professional, world cup winner, who wears his faith on his sleeve. It is highly significant that a successful player from within the camp has spoken up against Vaughan.

    Let's see if he says more as he hasn't yet made a comment about an overall environment of racism at Yorkshire.

  29. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum363 View Post
    I was actually going to write a second post directly after explaining exactly what you asked. Apologies if this is not coherent, it’s just my own thoughts over things that happened years ago.

    Unlike these instances raised by Azeem, I never faced any blatant outward racism. I wish I had.

    This might sound ridiculous but it’s exactly what the issue was. Had there been a direct comment, I have some belief I would have either stood up for myself, or notified someone.

    Instead what transpired was an environment where I constantly felt like an outsider. Everyone constantly drinking beer (obviously not the kids) and eating specifically bacon sandwiches. Not that it bothers me what someone does but it was very clear that I was standing out like a store thumb and no one was making any effort to make a 14/15 year kid feel included. In fact the undertones were almost the opposite. By that I mean the general looks and mumbled hellos.

    Within the sport itself, I was definitely given adverse treatment compared to others - in regards to selection usually. I was also always only given a few minutes of batting in the nets (something I was terrible at, I was a fast bowler as per the stereotype) and never really ever helped to improve. Only after I was 18 and playing with friends did I start to play basic defensive shots/ drives and realised how ridiculous it was that over 5 years of paying a club, they never taught me the skills of how to hold a bat properly.

    To be clear - I was never talented enough to play even county level nor was it ever more than a passion/hobby for me alongside my studies. But I can certainly say that the environment demotivated me and caused me to be a considerably worse cricketer than I could have been. I stayed because my best friend (who was white, lovely guy but so oblivious that he wouldn’t even know what to do had he picked up on it) also played for them, it was close to home, I was set in the routine and it felt far more intimidating to start at a new club after all the discomfort than to just bear through what I had.

    Looking back on it now - I wonder how much of it was due to malice and how much was due to unconscious bias. There could be a news story about a ‘Muslim’ grooming gang or a group of lads from Bradford acting like idiots and the coach/ a parent/ one of the players would come to training and associate the Asian player with that negativity.

    I don’t think the people there were bad people at all. Many of the kids were my friends and the parents caring. I can pin point a number of people who were incredibly helpful. But the general environment was where the issue lay.
    This is a great post and nicely captures the experiences that many of us may have gone through in club level cricket.

  30. #269
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    David Lloyd Bumble, Tim Bresnan etc mentioned by an emotional Rafiq

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    On a side note, throwing political correctness to the winds, and in my self preservationist style, it is my personal wish that on this instance, British Indians should take a deep breath , keep quiet & let the dust settle on this matter.

    Monty P has come with a positivist neutral message, which is totally respectable. But that should be that. We would be well advised to keep silent for our future diplomatic well being. Else its your wish.

  32. #271
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    Yes there are racists of all colours and everywhere, but one racists actions don’t justify another’s. At the same time if certain people are racists doesn’t justify others to say it’s ok because people of the victims colour are racist too.

    Mamoon’s logic is stupid, and him generalising that people won’t allow son daughter to marry different colour person is nonsense. I would have no issue and as long as the person is good colony wouldn’t matter.

  33. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nado_ View Post
    Some the comments on here are a joke , some people trying to deflect on the issue at hand and people saying Asians are racist too etc get a grip of your pathetic selves.

    As someone from uk and has had close friends and family try to breakthrough into professional and semi professional cricket, let me tell you this, there does seem to be a culture within counties and some clubs that if you do not fit into “their culture“ you will not really be accepted unless you are really a stand out Asian player. I’ve heard many stories of Pakistani kids being judged i.e on the fact that they have bought a C A bat to a trial. Basically if the way you are does not fit into their cardboard cutout then someone who may be equal in skill who does fit the picture will most likely go through and so on.

    All these guys saying well Moeen Ali got in etc, let me tell you this Moeen Ali when he was a kid was so exceptional they had no choice. Try to find stories of how he was smashing records when he was a kid in school etc.

    The system from what I’ve seen is institutionally racist, that does not mean that no Asian whatsoever does not get selected. Unless your really exceptionally good and stand out from the rest then your fine , but many may not get selected simply because they do not fit that cardboard cutout. Therefore kids of certain backgrounds cannot then excel at the grassroots level. The argument of England
    Selecting players of different backgrounds is different because I’m referring to the grassroots level which develop you to the higher level. Majority of us Uk Pakistanis come from working class backgrounds and have our own identity and simply do not fit into the middle class image the clubs and counties seem to want.
    It should be noted that Azim Rafiq also 'made it'. He captained Yorkshire and England u-19. He was captaining a side that contained players like Root and Vince.

    Unfortunately, he has developed significant psychological issues as a result of living a double life of drinking with the boys and living as a Muslim home and is now trying to re-write the past to explain his failures and make excuses for why he failed while others didn't.

    From the Guardian:

    He struggled to balance his Muslim background with fitting in with the lifestyles of his teammates, something he thinks helps explain the yips he started to suffer the following winter as the story of youthful promise started to spoil.


    I am no fan of Azeem and once you guys learn of his own behaviour then I think most of you will also step back from making him a saint.

    However, it has opened up an important conversation about the game in this country and more and more credible people will hopefully speak up.

  34. #273
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    I think closet racists are probably the worst. Those who for example trying to dilute BLM by saying All lives matter. Literally off course they do but it’s about highlighting the abuse and problems people of colour face.

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    His personal life, his flaws etc (and I am not Rafiq fan either) should have nothing to do with this, or does it justify racist or any abuse. Trying to link the two is trying to justify the abuse.

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    Don't care if Azeem enjoyed a drink or two.

    Whether or not he is a 'good Muslim' is of no relevance to me at all and has no bearing on whether I consider him to be a good person or a bad person.
    Last edited by MenInG; 16th November 2021 at 16:10.

  37. #276
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    Rafiq on Vaughan claims

    Rafiq has been asked about former England and Yorkshire captain Michael Vaughan, whom it is alleged said "there are too many of you lot" to four Asian Yorkshire cricketers.

    Vaughan denies the allegation.

    “It’s important on Michael that we don’t make it all about Michael. It was a long time ago. He might not remember it because it doesn’t mean anything to him."


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  38. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    It should be noted that Azim Rafiq also 'made it'. He captained Yorkshire and England u-19. He was captaining a side that contained players like Root and Vince.

    Unfortunately, he has developed significant psychological issues as a result of living a double life of drinking with the boys and living as a Muslim home and is now trying to re-write the past to explain his failures and make excuses for why he failed while others didn't.

    From the Guardian:

    He struggled to balance his Muslim background with fitting in with the lifestyles of his teammates, something he thinks helps explain the yips he started to suffer the following winter as the story of youthful promise started to spoil.


    I am no fan of Azeem and once you guys learn of his own behaviour then I think most of you will also step back from making him a saint.

    However, it has opened up an important conversation about the game in this country and more and more credible people will hopefully speak up.
    I think the balance issue relates to my post where I feel a lot of Pakistanis will not fit into the culture of certain clubs and counties. My post was more of a general perspective on institutional racism/prejudice in some clubs and counties

  39. #278
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    Was Rafiq any different to guys and girls I went to school/university/work with who drank? Him wanting to fit in is not unique to him and doesn't mean he asked for everything or deserved it. It is a very immature argument that I would expect from an eight year old (he was a bad Muslim hence everything is fair game)

  40. #279
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    People need to realise Azeem played for 10 years for Yorkshire and captained the team, as well as U19s I just can't feel for him given the time he spent and played at YCCC.

    I am watching the select committee session live and Azeem stated he should've progressed further in his career given his stats in 2017. Really? He didn't even have the best stats in 2017!

    It's ironic that more white players fail to even make it to the level Azeem was playing at but you don't see said players complaining or heading to the reporters! Plus with the current Asian players playing for England - past and present - there really is no ground to claim institutional racism.

  41. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salma_T View Post
    Was Rafiq any different to guys and girls I went to school/university/work with who drank? Him wanting to fit in is not unique to him and doesn't mean he asked for everything or deserved it. It is a very immature argument that I would expect from an eight year old (he was a bad Muslim hence everything is fair game)
    Don't put words in others mouths and make highly inaccurate sweeping generalisations.

    This hasn't been claimed once on this thread and the only time his faith is brought into it has been from a guardian comment that linked his double life with a loss of form.

    I understand that for many of you it is a touchy subject because of your own personal lives ( that isn't the point being made here)....but for many of us that grew up in these environments, it is an important and highly significant detail.

    Not a detail that condones or excuses racism, but one that helps us to understand the environment in which many of these remarks were allegedly made and what lead people to make them.

  42. #281
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    Now Azeem claims Homophobia and Mysoginy ate prevalent in the dressing room even though he cannot recall it!

  43. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Don't put words in others mouths and make highly inaccurate sweeping generalisations.

    This hasn't been claimed once on this thread and the only time his faith is brought into it has been from a guardian comment that linked his double life with a loss of form.

    I understand that for many of you it is a touchy subject because of your own personal lives ( that isn't the point being made here)....but for many of us that grew up in these environments, it is an important and highly significant detail.

    Not a detail that condones or excuses racism, but one that helps us to understand the environment in which many of these remarks were allegedly made and what lead people to make them.
    I have read many comments on this thread and the other one have many comments re his drinking. So I don't think I am putting words in anyone mouth!

  44. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salma_T View Post
    I have read many comments on this thread and the other one have many comments re his drinking. So I don't think I am putting words in anyone mouth!
    Nobody has claimed that he deserved racist abuse because he was a bad muslim though have they.

    Thats a ridiculous statement to make.

  45. #284
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    His drinking is not really relevant to anything unless someone is trying to say 'well it all happened down the pub so it's ok' otherwise why bring it up.

  46. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    People need to realise Azeem played for 10 years for Yorkshire and captained the team, as well as U19s I just can't feel for him given the time he spent and played at YCCC.

    I am watching the select committee session live and Azeem stated he should've progressed further in his career given his stats in 2017. Really? He didn't even have the best stats in 2017!

    It's ironic that more white players fail to even make it to the level Azeem was playing at but you don't see said players complaining or heading to the reporters! Plus with the current Asian players playing for England - past and present - there really is no ground to claim institutional racism.
    Wow! So many black players even played for England in footbal as well (and cricket), and still face abuse because of the colour of their skin. Ticking boxes, or having some players good enough play for a club or being given a chance doesn't mean there is no abuse and racism. Wasim Khan was CEO (of Leicestershre) and that doesn't men in Leicester everything is hunky dory.
    Not everyone is racist, and because some aren't and some peope are very good and given chances doesn't mean the abuse isn't there and should be ignored.
    Azeem may or may have not gone onto play for England, and his 2017 (or whenever) form may not be great, but he had aspirations, and I am sure if all this is happening in the back ground it would have affected him. He played for 10 years for Yorks doesn't mean that there was no racism just because he played that long. Some of the racism is considered 'normal', some are closet racists, some don't even realise what they are saying etc. And, yes it's not all people of all colours have racists but we are talking about England and English cricket, inparticular Yorks CC and Azeem and smilar experiences.

  47. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4all View Post
    Wow! So many black players even played for England in footbal as well (and cricket), and still face abuse because of the colour of their skin. Ticking boxes, or having some players good enough play for a club or being given a chance doesn't mean there is no abuse and racism. Wasim Khan was CEO (of Leicestershre) and that doesn't men in Leicester everything is hunky dory.
    Not everyone is racist, and because some aren't and some peope are very good and given chances doesn't mean the abuse isn't there and should be ignored.
    Azeem may or may have not gone onto play for England, and his 2017 (or whenever) form may not be great, but he had aspirations, and I am sure if all this is happening in the back ground it would have affected him. He played for 10 years for Yorks doesn't mean that there was no racism just because he played that long. Some of the racism is considered 'normal', some are closet racists, some don't even realise what they are saying etc. And, yes it's not all people of all colours have racists but we are talking about England and English cricket, inparticular Yorks CC and Azeem and smilar experiences.
    Racism isn’t going anywhere, and this wasn’t the point anyway.

    Are you watching the select committee questioning? Azeem is saying his career didn’t progress further because of racism - a remarkable claim given he played for YCCC for over 10 years, even more remarkable he believes his 2017 stats were a basis for progression. This is all live.

  48. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Racism isn’t going anywhere, and this wasn’t the point anyway.

    Are you watching the select committee questioning? Azeem is saying his career didn’t progress further because of racism - a remarkable claim given he played for YCCC for over 10 years, even more remarkable he believes his 2017 stats were a basis for progression. This is all live.
    I am, but because he is the victim, he has experienced that, he must be linking the two. It may be true to an extent but not completley that his career didn't progress because of racism. It maybe true to the extent that it affected his cricket, made him disillusioned and made him lose confidence. Certainly he was given a chance to play but was some of it to tick boxes, or he was good enough but had to accept the 'norm culture', or did his career also not progress because he was seen as a problem because of the allegations and had to be discredited and pushed away? Don't know the full answers but he certainly suffered and obviously he himself would have made mistakes, but that doesn't excuse any abuse and the institutional racism which is apparent at Headingley, even from their own report that 'Pak1' could be dismissed as banter but 'Zimber' or something like that (refered in a context similar to Aussie) should be a dsiciplinary offence. Wow, if that doesn't say it all then I don't know what will.

  49. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4all View Post
    I am, but because he is the victim, he has experienced that, he must be linking the two. It may be true to an extent but not completley that his career didn't progress because of racism. It maybe true to the extent that it affected his cricket, made him disillusioned and made him lose confidence. Certainly he was given a chance to play but was some of it to tick boxes, or he was good enough but had to accept the 'norm culture', or did his career also not progress because he was seen as a problem because of the allegations and had to be discredited and pushed away? Don't know the full answers but he certainly suffered and obviously he himself would have made mistakes, but that doesn't excuse any abuse and the institutional racism which is apparent at Headingley, even from their own report that 'Pak1' could be dismissed as banter but 'Zimber' or something like that (refered in a context similar to Aussie) should be a dsiciplinary offence. Wow, if that doesn't say it all then I don't know what will.
    Azeem used the phrase Zimbo, a racist slur, too.

    https://www.cricket365.com/county-cr...g-azeem-rafiq/

    Why was Azeem dishing out racist slurs?

  50. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You have to feel sorry for Vaughan.

    .
    I don’t.

    If he had done the decent thing and apologised instead of denying everything, he would at least have his honour.

  51. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saj View Post
    I wonder if any of the non-Asian players will come out in favour of Vaughan and say that he didn't say what is alleged.

    Getting messy this.
    I think he was being ironic especially given his biography extract but then again he's a 'gammon' but incident should be dealt in isolation

  52. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post

    It has also made me uncomfortable about Vaughan’s successful England team, which retrospectively as well as being incredibly talented was also incredibly White.
    Me too, a bit

  53. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Azeem used the phrase Zimbo, a racist slur, too.
    Zimbabwe isn’t a race, though.

  54. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Zimbabwe isn’t a race, though.
    Zimbo isn’t a racist slur, same as Aussie isn’t.
    Comparing the 2 is ludicrous.

  55. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Zimbabwe isn’t a race, though.
    Neither is Pakistan.

  56. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4all View Post
    Zimbo isn’t a racist slur, same as Aussie isn’t.
    Comparing the 2 is ludicrous.
    Might not be racist to you but Zimbo is a racist slur to Zimbabweans. In the same way Australians don't think the P word is a racist slur but is it is British Pakistanis.

    Azeem is basically a hypocrite for using a racist slur then claiming to be a victim of racism.

  57. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Might not be racist to you but Zimbo is a racist slur to Zimbabweans. In the same way Australians don't think the P word is a racist slur but is it is British Pakistanis.

    Azeem is basically a hypocrite for using a racist slur then claiming to be a victim of racism.
    If Zimbo is a racist slur then that’s wrong to use. I don’t know, never heard of it being racist but if you say or have evidence of that then fine.
    Whatever, hypocrite or not, the person who was offended by Zimbo should have complained but it only seems it’s now used as a defence because of Azeem’s allegations.
    The fact doesn’t change he was a victim of racist abuse, bulllying etc doesn’t make it okay for him to suffer that even if as you say he’s a hypocrite. Sounds like people like you are try to just Yorkshire’s behaviour.

  58. #297
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    If Azeem used Zimbo then he should be made aware if it is racist and apologise, but what he himself faced doesn’t seem to compare. I know ignorance isn’t an excuse and that’s why he should apologise but hearing all the evidence I would give Azeem the benefit of doubt than York’s hypocritical and unfair report ( even though they admit racism) and handling which is blatant cover up. Instead of the person who complained getting a fair deal they are saying oh well forget your complain because what you said doesn’t count now but you should be punished yourself for Zimbo. Now instead they could have dealt with the matter fairly for him and also pulled him up for Zimbo as well. Zimbo being used doesn’t make Pak1 ok.

  59. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4all View Post
    If Zimbo is a racist slur then that’s wrong to use. I don’t know, never heard of it being racist but if you say or have evidence of that then fine.
    Whatever, hypocrite or not, the person who was offended by Zimbo should have complained but it only seems it’s now used as a defence because of Azeem’s allegations.
    The fact doesn’t change he was a victim of racist abuse, bulllying etc doesn’t make it okay for him to suffer that even if as you say he’s a hypocrite. Sounds like people like you are try to just Yorkshire’s behaviour.
    Gary Ballance is from Zimbabwe. Has the penny dropped yet? Sounds to me like you are unaware of the facts and are just virtue signalling.

    Azeem played for 10 years then cried racism? Why didn't he report racism early in his career? It's obvious.

  60. #299
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    Zimbo is not a racist slur. Anyone who actually knows anything about this topic wouldn't argue it is.

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    A term that has been used against people from Zimbabwe (or people who are Zimbo) before is Rhodie. The term Rhodie (apologies to any Zimbos who might be offended) is used to describe a person from Zimbabwe but with social connotations which imply a lower class and a white man - hence it can be offensive.

    The term Zimbo, however, is not and never has been offensive. It is a lie if anyone is saying it is.

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  64. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Gary Ballance is from Zimbabwe. Has the penny dropped yet? Sounds to me like you are unaware of the facts and are just virtue signalling.

    Azeem played for 10 years then cried racism? Why didn't he report racism early in his career? It's obvious.
    Wow mr or ms genius... i didn't know, round of applause for you.
    I am well aware where Ballance is from, I am well aware and never heard any Zimbabwean being offended by the term Zimbo. Balance wasn't and only mentioned now as a 'defense' to cover up his abuse to Rafiq. He wasn't even offendedby it actually, or not initally but conveniently is apparently offended now. The only other person who's offended is you. I don't think your Zimbabwean or British.
    You forget and conveniently miss the main point that Rafq is the one who complained, his complaints not dealth fairly, others have come out as well (Essex etc). Ballance didn't even care less about Zimbo, I think you (and the likes of some at Yorks) care more than him and now using it as a defence for Rafiq went through to okay the abuse he got and to make it okay to turn a blind eye. Very shameful, listen to yourself. As far as I know the parliamentary committe and others today didn't even refer to the Zimbo thing. Non-issue really. Also read Babeikh's post below might help you a bit, although I know you still won't get it orstay ignorant and selective.
    BTW, you saying just cause England and Yorks having Asian and black players means there is no types of racism is ludicrous. It's just like saying India had a Muslim president and there is no abuse to muslims there (not by everyone), or Pakistan had Danish Kaneria and there is no discrimination against Hindus there. Discrimination is sadly everywhere and its people like you that deter victims to come out and dismiss it as a non issue.

  65. #304
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    Martyn Moxon is also conveninently ill now. (Maybe he is really but don't blame people doubting that he isn't). Mr Vaughan, also used his article as a defence to get n there before and act innocent when there are wittnesses. Also, Vaughan got the report details before even Rafq. Appalling!

  66. #305
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    Regarding Vaughan: Well he is going to say obviously he never said that, as he's not going to say he's a racist now is he? He will be worried about his media career ofcourse.

  67. #306
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    Vaughan made a mistake, just like Rafiq made a mistake by publicly abusing his coach after getting axed from the U-19 team.

    Why is a casual racist remark worse than calling the U-19 England coach a w*nker on Twitter?

    Why is a despicable human being like Rafiq treated like a hero while Vaughan is being bashed? Why the hypocrisy and self-righteousness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4all View Post
    Wow mr or ms genius... i didn't know, round of applause for you.
    I am well aware where Ballance is from, I am well aware and never heard any Zimbabwean being offended by the term Zimbo. Balance wasn't and only mentioned now as a 'defense' to cover up his abuse to Rafiq. He wasn't even offendedby it actually, or not initally but conveniently is apparently offended now. The only other person who's offended is you. I don't think your Zimbabwean or British.
    You forget and conveniently miss the main point that Rafq is the one who complained, his complaints not dealth fairly, others have come out as well (Essex etc). Ballance didn't even care less about Zimbo, I think you (and the likes of some at Yorks) care more than him and now using it as a defence for Rafiq went through to okay the abuse he got and to make it okay to turn a blind eye. Very shameful, listen to yourself. As far as I know the parliamentary committe and others today didn't even refer to the Zimbo thing. Non-issue really. Also read Babeikh's post below might help you a bit, although I know you still won't get it orstay ignorant and selective.
    BTW, you saying just cause England and Yorks having Asian and black players means there is no types of racism is ludicrous. It's just like saying India had a Muslim president and there is no abuse to muslims there (not by everyone), or Pakistan had Danish Kaneria and there is no discrimination against Hindus there. Discrimination is sadly everywhere and its people like you that deter victims to come out and dismiss it as a non issue.
    You don’t live in the UK.

    I just realised.

    Have fun!

  69. #308
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    It’s clear why the YCCC didn’t take action, simply because Azeem was guilty of making a racist slur too.

    Credit to Gary Ballance for apologising, but no apology from Azeem.

  70. #309
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    Nobody is saying Rafiq is an angel, and nobody should judge really others especially if you don't know them, but calling someone a w*nker still doesn't justify everything he himself faced. So one wrong (or many) make it okay to abuse thatsame person. Rafiq is only treated as a 'hero' if you say because him coming out has ecouraged others to come out as well, and there will be much more. It's not just asians suffering but afro-caribean people also suffer a lot in the UK (people like Marcus Rashford have had abuse). It maynot be as easy for non-Brits to understand what someone in Britain facing racist or other discrimination has faced. (every country has its own culture, good & bad). I don't think you can fully understand it in the same perspective unless you have been through it or even a tiny bit of it.

  71. #310
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    Oh dear.
    I have always referred to the Zimbabwean cricket team as the zimbos.
    Never ever did I think it was a racist slur.

    Simone should tell Twitter so they can take down the CricketZimbo account

  72. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    It’s clear why the YCCC didn’t take action, simply because Azeem was guilty of making a racist slur too.

    Credit to Gary Ballance for apologising, but no apology from Azeem.
    Only apologised because it came in public, if you call that an apology. What should Rafiq apologise to Ballance for? BTW something RAfiq said once which Ballance wasn't even offended by, and definitely not said or deragtory as the P word is in the UK or even in the same context. He is only conveniently offended now, 'oh btw now am offended too for something I wasn't before, but because everything I have said to you at least I can have some excuse'

    Anyway, that's my take on it all, and it's clear who you and Mamoon sympathise with.

  73. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Vaughan made a mistake, just like Rafiq made a mistake by publicly abusing his coach after getting axed from the U-19 team.

    Why is a casual racist remark worse than calling the U-19 England coach a w*nker on Twitter?

    Why is a despicable human being like Rafiq treated like a hero while Vaughan is being bashed? Why the hypocrisy and self-righteousness?
    A despicable human? The irony

  74. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    Oh dear.
    I have always referred to the Zimbabwean cricket team as the zimbos.
    Never ever did I think it was a racist slur.

    Simone should tell Twitter so they can take down the CricketZimbo account

    LOL

    What I love is that he is still trying to push the falsehood and losing credibility with every post.

  75. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    Oh dear.
    I have always referred to the Zimbabwean cricket team as the zimbos.
    Never ever did I think it was a racist slur.

    Simone should tell Twitter so they can take down the CricketZimbo account
    Exactly, same as Saffies, Aussies, Brits, Windies, Lankans etc. I think the sympathisers of the abusers are now just clutchig at straws and trying to justify the abuse with whatever they can.

  76. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    You don’t live in the UK.

    I just realised.

    Have fun!
    I do actually, I am of Kashmir origin in live in the UK. I guess you live in India or US?

  77. #316
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    Say the P-word outside of the UK and no one will bat an eye lid or cry racist.

    I have regularly witnessed the P-word among Asians, N-word among blacks, no cries of racism there!

    The moment a white person says it, then things change.

    It is a myth only whites are racists, complete utter myth.

    Zimbo is a racist term, might not be considered a racist term in the UK, but just like the P-word isn’t a racist term in Australia/Amreeka.

  78. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    A despicable human? The irony
    I guess projection I common on pakpassion now

  79. #318
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    The P word is said in a racist deragotary way in the UK. That's a fact. Azeem Rafiq YCCC are based in UK, events involving British people. Outside the UK it may not be racist. 'P' word is said in a racist way to Asians not just of Pakistan origin. The Zimbo word is definitely not racist just like syainf the Aussie, Saffie, Lankan. Anyway, bye bye from me, as I think you have made your point and so have I.

  80. #319
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    LOL and he is still trying to say Zimbo is racist

    Know when you've lost mate.

  81. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babeikh View Post
    LOL and he is still trying to say Zimbo is racist

    Know when you've lost mate.
    lol yeah, and he/she seems apparently offended by it more than anyone else (even more than Gary Ballance or any Zimbabwean person)

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