Should a murderer, who has reformed himself and obtain education in prison, be paroled?


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  1. #1
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    Should a murderer, who has reformed himself and obtain education in prison, be paroled?

    Came across an interesting case in the Pakistani media. A prisoner who had killed someone was sentenced for 26 years in prison after being proven guilty.

    He spent 11 years and was able to clear his intermediate education by scoring an overall A grade. He has even obtained a scholarship for University but it could be used once he gets released.

    There is still half of the sentence left and 5-6 years left to be eligible for parole.

    Thus, a murderer who reforms himself, should he be forgiven?


    The first and only PM of Pakistan to lose the peoples confidence = Imran Khan

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    Murder convict at Karachi jail wins ICAP scholarship

    A murder convict imprisoned in Karachi's Central Jail has proved his mark in the education sector by securing high marks in his intermediate examinations as a private candidate.

    Naeem Shah secured an 86.73% with 954 marks out of 1,100 in intermediate examinations.

    Shah was sentenced to 20 years in prison for murder. He has served his sentence for 11 years now, maintaining good moral demeanour, according to the management of the Karachi Central Jail.

    Murder convict at Karachi jail wins ICAP scholarship
    Finding him among the top 20 students in the intermediate examinations, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan has offered him the Edhi Scholarship of Rs1 million.





    https://www.geo.tv/latest/393275-kar...ps-scholarship


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  3. #3
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    Absolutely not.


    Ex Shahid Afridi fan.

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    No.

    If you do the crime, you have to receive the appropriate punishment.


    Bangladeshi Man

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    Well some murderers do get paroled, think nowadays only the most serious murder cases such as serial killers and murders based on hate (ethnicity, race, political etc) would not, irrespective if they've obtained an education or not.

    Of course, they would need to be reformed and show remorse for their crimes.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    Came across an interesting case in the Pakistani media. A prisoner who had killed someone was sentenced for 26 years in prison after being proven guilty.

    He spent 11 years and was able to clear his intermediate education by scoring an overall A grade. He has even obtained a scholarship for University but it could be used once he gets released.

    There is still half of the sentence left and 5-6 years left to be eligible for parole.

    Thus, a murderer who reforms himself, should he be forgiven?
    The heirs of the deceased had the option at the time of his sentence.
    He should consider himself lucky to be even alive.

    After he has done his time, as per law of the land, then he should be a free man. And if he wants to do something positive in his life then he should be free to do so.

    For now, he must wait till his time is completed.

  7. #7
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    Murder is not a joke , he should be punished, no excuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    Thus, a murderer who reforms himself, should he be forgiven?
    In some cases yes. There has to be a chance of rehabilitation.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    In some cases yes. There has to be a chance of rehabilitation.
    I agree with this.

    It depends on the circumstances or context.

    Ie. If someone has a street fight, was convicted of murder. This person after spending a decade behind bars can be released on parole if showed remorse and rehab.

    If someone who murders children, pre meditated, should never be released.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    In some cases yes. There has to be a chance of rehabilitation.
    Theoretically yes, but in my books, there are three exceptions to that.

    1 - Murderers.
    2 - Rapists.
    3 - Pedophiles.

    These three MUST serve their time and punishment.

    In case of murders, there is perhaps one additional option, and that is, if the loved ones of the deceased show any mercy and/or compensated then yes. Other than that, rapists and pedophiles deserve ABSOLUTELY NO MERCY of any sort, IMO.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Theoretically yes, but in my books, there are three exceptions to that.

    1 - Murderers.
    2 - Rapists.
    3 - Pedophiles.

    These three MUST serve their time and punishment.

    In case of murders, there is perhaps one additional option, and that is, if the loved ones of the deceased show any mercy and/or compensated then yes. Other than that, rapists and pedophiles deserve ABSOLUTELY NO MERCY of any sort, IMO.
    What if you and your family were out shopping. Someone came to attack you all, in response you killed a man or two. You were convicted of murder, not self defence. You have no criminal record, you have harmed nobody previously yet you have to lose your family and freedom?


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post

    Thus, a murderer who reforms himself, should he be forgiven?
    Or herself.

    There has to be some possibility of redemption. After years of incarceration, the murderer may be deemed to have progressed to the point where they are no longer a threat to the public and may be released.

    The release may be phased - in the UK a murderer might spend twenty years behind bars and then more to an “open” prison to be reintegrated back into the community.

    In the UK the murderer is on a whole life tariff and after release, if arrested for any reason will be returned to jail. That will protect the public from risk.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    In case of murders, there is perhaps one additional option, and that is, if the loved ones of the deceased show any mercy and/or compensated then yes. Other than that, rapists and pedophiles deserve ABSOLUTELY NO MERCY of any sort, IMO.
    Some paedophilic offenders have been reformed by psychotherapy, and do not re-offend upon release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    What if you and your family were out shopping. Someone came to attack you all, in response you killed a man or two. You were convicted of murder, not self defence. You have no criminal record, you have harmed nobody previously yet you have to lose your family and freedom?
    Once you open the "what if" can of worms then there are lots n lots of possible scenarios of hair splitting.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Some paedophilic offenders have been reformed by psychotherapy, and do not re-offend upon release.
    After they have done their time, which in my opinion should capital punishment after proven guilty, based on DNA and/or other undeniable evidence in a fair trial, then they are free to take whatever rehab route they wish to take.

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    So Peter Sutcliffe known better as "The Yorkshire Riper" should have been pardoned after a read a few books!? Great wisdom


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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Once you open the "what if" can of worms then there are lots n lots of possible scenarios of hair splitting.
    There is always mitigating circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    So Peter Sutcliffe known better as "The Yorkshire Riper" should have been pardoned after a read a few books!? Great wisdom
    How about Robert Maudsley? He was jailed for killing a peadophile, since killed other peadophiles. Sure taking the law into your own hand is not right but the people he killed were evil. He wont be ever released, which imo is wrong.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Once you open the "what if" can of worms then there are lots n lots of possible scenarios of hair splitting.
    1st, 2nd, 3rd degree, manslaughter - this is splitting hairs in the eyes of the law. Not what ifs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    There is always mitigating circumstances.



    How about Robert Maudsley? He was jailed for killing a peadophile, since killed other peadophiles. Sure taking the law into your own hand is not right but the people he killed were evil. He wont be ever released, which imo is wrong.
    Whoever ths Robert guy is should never see the sun either. I don't believe in this "eye for an eye will make the entire world blind" philosophy. For me revenge is a dish best served cold is the way to go.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    So Peter Sutcliffe known better as "The Yorkshire Riper" should have been pardoned after a read a few books!? Great wisdom
    Not pardoned. Paroled.

    But I don’t think Sutcliffe would have every reached the threshold for parole. His capacity for violence against women was too great and I don’t think he would reform.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    There is always mitigating circumstances.



    How about Robert Maudsley? He was jailed for killing a peadophile, since killed other peadophiles. Sure taking the law into your own hand is not right but the people he killed were evil. He wont be ever released, which imo is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Whoever ths Robert guy is should never see the sun either. I don't believe in this "eye for an eye will make the entire world blind" philosophy. For me revenge is a dish best served cold is the way to go.
    Probably not the best example, Robert Maudsley has been labeled the most dangerous prisoner in Britain, he is currently locked up for 23 hours a day in a glass box underneath HMP Wakefield with a concrete bed and toilet. he has killed numerous people inside and outside of jail and will die in prison.

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    Am I missing something fundamental here? I understand the focus on the murderer but what about the victims?

    What about the surviving victims of the crime? The murdered man or woman's children/parents/siblings etc.,? The murderer has at least the chance to be "alive" and reform himself/herself - but that's not the luxury unfortunately that is available to the victims of his/her crime.

    You may choose to use any word you like - justice/vengeance but I will be sick to my stomach if someone who murdered my parents/children walk out of the prison irrespective of their reform. In cases of murder (assuming it was a premeditated/first degree) - the prisoner should ideally spend the rest of his/her natural life in prison.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonidas_alexandar View Post
    Am I missing something fundamental here?
    That justice is supposed to be redemptive, not vengeance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    That justice is supposed to be redemptive, not vengeance.
    What is justice supposed be - it appears to me is subjective - some countries/cultures perhaps value the pain of victims more than the murderer's well being. Ideally both should go hand in hand. A prisoner reformed can still be of use while still serving a life sentence. He or she can be allowed to speak in seminars in colleges, community centers etc.,

    I actually do agree with you that justice is redemptive but to me that is just one third of narrative. The victim's loss and their pain should take precedence in meting out justice. You may be aware of the practice of victim impact statements being part of the court proceedings here in the US.

    Again the whole idea of prison itself seems anachronistic if redemption of the murderer is at the center of administration of justice. A murderer in theory can be allowed to stay at his/her own home and embark on the path of redemption. He or she does not need to spend years in prison. For every person who thinks a life sentence is "just" there's other people who might throw out different numbers - essentially everyone has their own idea of what justice is in terms of the number of years a perpetrator should spend in prison.

    In my book -if someone commits a pre-meditated, planned murder he or she should remain in prison for the rest of their natural life span.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentkiller187 View Post
    Probably not the best example, Robert Maudsley has been labeled the most dangerous prisoner in Britain, he is currently locked up for 23 hours a day in a glass box underneath HMP Wakefield with a concrete bed and toilet. he has killed numerous people inside and outside of jail and will die in prison.
    AFAIK He has only ever killed child abusers.

    The guy should get a medal imo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Not pardoned. Paroled.

    But I don’t think Sutcliffe would have every reached the threshold for parole. His capacity for violence against women was too great and I don’t think he would reform.
    No murder should be paroled. They will kill again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I agree with this.

    It depends on the circumstances or context.

    Ie. If someone has a street fight, was convicted of murder. This person after spending a decade behind bars can be released on parole if showed remorse and rehab.

    If someone who murders children, pre meditated, should never be released.
    Yes exactly. Every case is unique and different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorblind Genius View Post
    Once you open the "what if" can of worms then there are lots n lots of possible scenarios of hair splitting.
    This is what happens though. Many cases which make it to court are truly extraordinary (they are in the public domain so you can read about them), and they could not be written. Fact is stranger than fiction. So it’s a relevant discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    No murder should be paroled. They will kill again.
    As a blanket statement this is just not true. Many people who have been convicted of murder, young and old, male and female, of all shapes and sizes, colours and creeds, are walking among us now. They have spent long stretches in jail and been punished for what they did, but they have been reformed and rehabilitated, then paroled, and have reintegrated back into everyday society.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    No murder should be paroled. They will kill again.
    Plenty don’t. You have to consider the circumstances of the offence. Did someone plan a calculated murder in cold blood, or lash out in hot blood?

    Justice in the West follows a Christian model. There is transgression, and then punishment results.

    But then if there is contrition, this is followed by eventual forgiveness.

    The paroled offended will be monitored by the Parole Officers for life, and the local police will be informed. In this way the contrite offender can be rehabilitated to become a productive member of society again, while the public are still protected.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Plenty don’t. You have to consider the circumstances of the offence. Did someone plan a calculated murder in cold blood, or lash out in hot blood?

    Justice in the West follows a Christian model. There is transgression, and then punishment results.

    But then if there is contrition, this is followed by eventual forgiveness.

    The paroled offended will be monitored by the Parole Officers for life, and the local police will be informed. In this way the contrite offender can be rehabilitated to become a productive member of society again, while the public are still protected.
    Yes and I also think it is often forgotten that a convicted murderer always gets a life sentence in the UK — it is mandatory. Therefore, their tariff lasts until they die, and if they are paroled/out on licence and convicted of any criminal offence at all, they get returned to prison for a period of time to continue serving their life sentence.

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    An inmate serving a life sentence for murder in Central Jail Karachi has won a scholarship for further study after taking one of the highest scores in the higher secondary school (HSC) exams last year.

    Syed Naeem Shah, 35, scored the highest in the exams among private candidates — that is, among non-traditional students — last year in Karachi, winning a scholarship for further studies from the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan (ICAP).

    "What I have achieved while languishing in jail is not possible if one does not have conviction," Shah told Reuters.

    The Karachi penitentiary is notorious for being overcrowded, holding nearly 6,000 inmates in space meant for 2,400. In fact, all prisons across the country are at 130 per cent of capacity and are poorly ventilated, with insufficient beds and limited access to medicines, safe water and bathing facilities, according to Amnesty International.


    Speaking in a classroom inside the prison grounds, Shah said he enjoyed school as a child but that his family could not afford to continue his education. In jail, older inmates who were also taking classes motivated him and helped him prepare for exams.

    Shah is one of 1,200 inmates studying in Central Jail Karachi, but his success is unparalleled, said Saeed Soomro, deputy superintendent of the prison.

    “His results are [also] tantamount to our success," Soomro said, in giving him the opportunity to study and providing him with books and materials.

    Shah was sentenced to life — 25 years — in 2018 for the shooting and killing of another man in a personal disagreement in 2010. Years spent as a prisoner on trial, plus time off for academic achievements, good behaviour and blood donations, leaves him with about six years to serve.

    Shah still has to pass an entrance exam to formally take up the scholarship, an ICAP official said, requesting anonymity as he was not authorised to talk to the media.

    The scholarships, of Rs1,000,000, are offered to students earning the top four scores in intermediate exams, regardless of whether "they are in jail or outside", the ICAP official said.

    "I feel it will be very difficult for me to pursue this scholarship from prison," Shah said, given the technical and specialised subjects he will be pursuing.

    Even before his exam success, Shah said he had filed an appeal against his conviction that is pending in the high court.

    "I appeal to the president of Pakistan, prime minister and chief executive of Sindh province to consider my case for remission."

    DAWN


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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    As a blanket statement this is just not true. Many people who have been convicted of murder, young and old, male and female, of all shapes and sizes, colours and creeds, are walking among us now. They have spent long stretches in jail and been punished for what they did, but they have been reformed and rehabilitated, then paroled, and have reintegrated back into everyday society.
    I said they should not be allowed to move freely not that they do not. I realise that killers are rapists mostly get away with crimes often under the garb of being mentally ill. I just do not believe that they really regret their actions at all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Plenty don’t. You have to consider the circumstances of the offence. Did someone plan a calculated murder in cold blood, or lash out in hot blood?

    Justice in the West follows a Christian model. There is transgression, and then punishment results.

    But then if there is contrition, this is followed by eventual forgiveness.

    The paroled offended will be monitored by the Parole Officers for life, and the local police will be informed. In this way the contrite offender can be rehabilitated to become a productive member of society again, while the public are still protected.
    The west can do whatever it wants but generally I have always been in favour of capital punishment. A Peter Sutcliffe would probably have hanged in the Gulf and many other countries unless he could offer some blood money to the victims family.

    Circumstances of the perpetrator hearing voices being encouraged to kill just doesn't convince me at all. Such situations are very rare yet used as an excuse by defence lawyers to defend a madman. I have read that many times after being pardoned the accused turns on his lawyer like in the film "Cape Fear".

    You see I do believe in forgiveness but not in the case of murder or even rape. Lets ask the victim if or not they are happy with such lame punishments.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I said they should not be allowed to move freely not that they do not. I realise that killers are rapists mostly get away with crimes often under the garb of being mentally ill. I just do not believe that they really regret their actions at all.
    I don’t think it’s that simple, I think there will be a wide variety of behaviours seen amongst “lifers” who have spent a long time in prison.

    Some for example will have no remorse whatsoever, I totally agree with that, but the parole and justice systems are designed so these people will never get released, as they will often reoffend in prison and bully, assault, or even kill other prisoners as well. These individuals will get repeatedly transferred around A and B Category prisons forever until the day they die themselves.

    There are also definitely people who have committed serious crimes, even perhaps taking the life of another person, who have sincere and deep regrets and can be genuinely rehabilitated within an incarcerated environment, coming back out into society with a renewed outlook and as changed men.

    Many people enjoy the film “The Shawshank Redemption”, I would recommend it if you haven’t seen it before, as across the characters one is shown pretty much every “type” of prisoner that can be found in real life, from those who were wrongly convicted to those who weren’t, from the good to the bad to the old to the young to the ugly, from the unlucky and the decent to the corrupt, the twisted and the evil.
    Last edited by James; 22nd January 2022 at 22:15.

  36. #36
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    It all depends on the circumstances. I know someone who got charged with second degree in the early 2000's after a high school brawl where an older ex-military guy who showed up to a beef as back up for his nephew ended up hitting his head on the curb and shorty after pronounced dead at the hospital.

    Three high school students were initially going to be charged, one of them absconded to his country of origin while the two other teens (16/17yr olds) were sent to juvi. The 16 year old was out in 18 months on house arrest, he then broke his house arrest conditions twice and was subsequently sent back to prison for another 12 month stint till his lawyer got him out again on house arrest with an ankle monitor.

    This teen did his GED and part of his undergrad in prison followed by Med school when he got out, fast forward a decade he is a physician in Massachusetts, with a wife and 2 kids.

    So the short answer to you question is Yes and No.

    Each case is different.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    The west can do whatever it wants but generally I have always been in favour of capital punishment. A Peter Sutcliffe would probably have hanged in the Gulf and many other countries unless he could offer some blood money to the victims family.

    Circumstances of the perpetrator hearing voices being encouraged to kill just doesn't convince me at all. Such situations are very rare yet used as an excuse by defence lawyers to defend a madman. I have read that many times after being pardoned the accused turns on his lawyer like in the film "Cape Fear".

    You see I do believe in forgiveness but not in the case of murder or even rape. Lets ask the victim if or not they are happy with such lame punishments.
    Trouble with the death penalty is that it is predicated on revenge, not rehabilitation. It makes the state equally guilty as the murderer.

    I don’t see that at least twenty years in a dirty, cold, dangerous jail is “lame”

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    I honestly believe that if someone has done reasonable amount of time behind bars, have shown good behaviour and have received the consent of the family who suffered as a result of the murder, then they absolutely deserve a second chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I honestly believe that if someone has done reasonable amount of time behind bars, have shown good behaviour and have received the consent of the family who suffered as a result of the murder, then they absolutely deserve a second chance.
    Yes, well summarised.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    I honestly believe that if someone has done reasonable amount of time behind bars, have shown good behaviour and have received the consent of the family who suffered as a result of the murder, then they absolutely deserve a second chance.
    And if the family says no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I don’t think it’s that simple, I think there will be a wide variety of behaviours seen amongst “lifers” who have spent a long time in prison.

    Some for example will have no remorse whatsoever, I totally agree with that, but the parole and justice systems are designed so these people will never get released, as they will often reoffend in prison and bully, assault, or even kill other prisoners as well. These individuals will get repeatedly transferred around A and B Category prisons forever until the day they die themselves.

    There are also definitely people who have committed serious crimes, even perhaps taking the life of another person, who have sincere and deep regrets and can be genuinely rehabilitated within an incarcerated environment, coming back out into society with a renewed outlook and as changed men.

    Many people enjoy the film “The Shawshank Redemption”, I would recommend it if you haven’t seen it before, as across the characters one is shown pretty much every “type” of prisoner that can be found in real life, from those who were wrongly convicted to those who weren’t, from the good to the bad to the old to the young to the ugly, from the unlucky and the decent to the corrupt, the twisted and the evil.
    Every prisoner will express remorse so to be set free. Some are genuine where as others are not. You seem to be agreeing with me that they should be permanently imprisoned? Many would bee happy with that if they have nothing outside or no where to go to. No family, job, prospects and ill health they will be happy to remain in prison. Not seen the film you mentioned, i do love prison films "Escape from Alcatraz" with Clint Eastwood and "Lock Up" with Sly Stallone

    Anything short or murder even manslaughter the perpetrators should be released after serving their time.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Trouble with the death penalty is that it is predicated on revenge, not rehabilitation. It makes the state equally guilty as the murderer.

    I don’t see that at least twenty years in a dirty, cold, dangerous jail is “lame”
    Then revenge it is. They should have thought about that before taking an innocent life. They would rather be killed then be forced in a filthy hole.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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