England's approach vs NZ in 4th Innings vs Pakistan's approach in 4th innings vs Australia


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  1. #1
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    England's approach vs NZ in 4th Innings vs Pakistan's approach in 4th innings vs Australia

    England went for the win despite being 1-0 up in the series and 93/4. They could have played it safe but under Stokes leadership went for the target and achieved it.

    Contrast this to Pakistan's cowardly approach in the recent test series against Australia where they were playing for the draw and not even attempting to go for the target. They ended up losing anyway.

    What a massive difference in approach and mindset. Pakistan have a long way to go. This England team may flop, but they have the right mindset.

  2. #2
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    I said it back then that Pakistan drawing the Karachi Test was ridiculous. Either Pakistan should've won that Test or lost it. You cannot bat for 2 full days and not score 506 runs when the pitch is an absolute pancake. Babar is a good batsman but has a terrible mentality when it comes to captaincy. He's just another captain in the long line of timid captains that Pakistan possess.

    This timidness in our team flows from the society. As a society, we have fallen so back on the economic front that we are reliant on foreign aid. It has made us subservient. Foreigners are treated like royalty in Pakistan because we aspire to be like them. Inferiority complex is ingrained. It is no coincidence that positive minded captains like Mushtaq Mohammad, Imran Khan, Javed Miandad, were a product of the 60s,70s when Pakistan's economy used to be decent.

    Pakistan will only excel in sports when the economy is in better hands. The worse the economy goes, the worse the results on the cricket ground. I foresee a very bleak future for Pakistan cricket.
    Last edited by shariqnoor; 15th June 2022 at 01:38.

  3. #3
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    Appoint someone like McCullum and expected results will follow.
    Appoint someone like saqlian and "expected" results will follow.

    PCB and Rambo needs to do better in supporting Babar Azam and put the right support structure around him.

  4. #4
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    Lol..the attack they were facing was quite different and the batsmen were different. We have Babar and rizwan..and that's pretty much it..

    You can't compare the two situations..every series like this we see stupid threads like this one..I've been on the forum for nearly 20 years and it never changes..from threads like "ve r vurse than Bangladesh to ve r covurds yaar"..seriously..

  5. #5
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    You canít really compare a chase of 299 to a 500+ chase.

    Pakistan could have been more positive though and there was an overall negative approach throughout the series, so they could learn a thing or two from England. But letís be honest - we donít have destroyers like Bairstow and Stokes in our team. No where near it - E.g. Imam, Azhar Ali, Fawad etc. Our batsmen are happy plodding along at a 30 S/R.

  6. #6
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    Leadership makes the difference.

    Stokes and McCullum only know one way and that's all guns blazing.

    Great to see.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSultan View Post
    You can’t really compare a chase of 299 to a 500+ chase.

    Pakistan could have been more positive though and there was an overall negative approach throughout the series, so they could learn a thing or two from England. But let’s be honest - we don’t have destroyers like Bairstow and Stokes in our team. No where near it - E.g. Imam, Azhar Ali, Fawad etc. Our batsmen are happy plodding along at a 30 S/R.
    That 500+ run chase was needed over 2 days at a RR of less than 3.0. You needed to score 250 runs a day on a flatbed. You didn't need a Bairstow or Stokes to power that run chase. A team worth its salt should easily be able to score 250 runs in a day. It was one of the most shameful Tests in recent memory. And Pakistan team and fans lap it up as a miraculous escape.

  8. #8
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    You can't compare a detiorating Day 5 wicket in Lahore, Karachi with a Day 5 wicket in England. Regardless, Pakistan would not have chased anything on Day 5 in England either. We don't have the quality.

  9. #9
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    lol look at how quickly runs were piled up during the entire match in the England game vs how slow everyone was in Pakistan match. Even Australia played at a below 3 run per over for 189 overs in the first innings.

    Pakistan also simply do not have batsmen capable of doing what Stokes & Bairstow can do. You need dynamic ability to go run a ball or well above it in Test matches and that is something Pakistani batsmen simply lack. They're not big hitters and don't play at the SR those guys play at. Sometimes it's knowing your limitations and playing within it.

  10. #10
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    I agree with OP.

    One can justify not going for the target with many arguments.

    Ultimately Pakistan did in Karachi what Joe Root and Babar Azam have been doing in their entire captaincy career - safety first.

    End result: Pakistan lost the series. At home. Where is the safety in that?

  11. #11
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    England have more firepower than Pakistan. So, they could go for it.

    Had Pakistan tried to play like this, they probably would've lost.


    Bangladeshi Guy

  12. #12
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    Pakistan mentality in the Aus test series was atrocious I have no hope for our test team not because there is lack of talent this side is developing a decent core but the mindset is stuck in the 70's

  13. #13
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    Whilst I give full credit for England for taking on the challenge a number of factors were strongly in their favour.

    1. Black Caps bowling attack decimated. Losing Jameison mid game a blow.

    2. Not having captain Kyle Williamson out there, his deputy was a rabbit in the headlights.

    3. Trent Bridge wicket flat and did not deteriorate. Sunny all day negating swing.

    4. England mindset. Nothing to lose they have been poor for some time in test matches.

    Do you think Bairstow and Stokes could have pulled this off on a low slow sub continent wicket?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSultan View Post
    You canít really compare a chase of 299 to a 500+ chase.

    Pakistan could have been more positive though and there was an overall negative approach throughout the series, so they could learn a thing or two from England. But letís be honest - we donít have destroyers like Bairstow and Stokes in our team. No where near it - E.g. Imam, Azhar Ali, Fawad etc. Our batsmen are happy plodding along at a 30 S/R.
    I am referring to the 3rd test where Pak were chasing 350 and had to chase 280 off 90 overs on the final day. Yet they went tuk tuk and ended up losing anyway. Whereas England here needed 299 off 50 overs, and they went for it and switched to ODI mode. They even continued to play positive cricket even when at 93/4 and eventually won. Its all about the mentality.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Lol..the attack they were facing was quite different and the batsmen were different. We have Babar and rizwan..and that's pretty much it..

    You can't compare the two situations..every series like this we see stupid threads like this one..I've been on the forum for nearly 20 years and it never changes..from threads like "ve r vurse than Bangladesh to ve r covurds yaar"..seriously..
    Spot on
    Local solutions for local problem

  16. #16
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    While there is no doubt that our test cricket approach needs improvement to be playing at optimal level given the resources (I believe we can do better) but, Eng's 4th innings was one of its kind victory and not something which is happening every month. Also the nature of the pitch, the pace it had, NZ being a bowler short, all these factors need to be taken into account. Not all test pitches and conditions can be compared directly.

    Pakistan chased 302 runs in two sessions (59 overs) in 4th innings vs Srl in 2014 in Sharjah. We didn't have much threads back then mentioning that Pak set the benchmark.
    Last edited by Titan24; 15th June 2022 at 13:18.

  17. #17
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    Pakistan are a coward mentality batting side

    An international team that opens T20 cricket with Babar and Rizwan in order to bat out overs without losing wickets have no business trying what the big boys of cricket do!

  18. #18
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    What do you expect when you have a timid captain at the helm.

    Babar was never captaincy material.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SM1989 View Post
    I am referring to the 3rd test where Pak were chasing 350 and had to chase 280 off 90 overs on the final day. Yet they went tuk tuk and ended up losing anyway. Whereas England here needed 299 off 50 overs, and they went for it and switched to ODI mode. They even continued to play positive cricket even when at 93/4 and eventually won. Its all about the mentality.
    Ok yes, I agree with that. That approach was shameful. Unfortunately our team thinking has been negative for over a decade. They donít have the capacity to think positive.

    Itís a damning indictment of all our captains and coaches over the last decade.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shariqnoor View Post
    That 500+ run chase was needed over 2 days at a RR of less than 3.0. You needed to score 250 runs a day on a flatbed. You didn't need a Bairstow or Stokes to power that run chase. A team worth its salt should easily be able to score 250 runs in a day. It was one of the most shameful Tests in recent memory. And Pakistan team and fans lap it up as a miraculous escape.
    Iím not disagreeing that we could have been more positive in that particular chase. But 500 runs is a lot more different to 300. You need to build the innings first with an eye on victory. This is where Pakistan failed. They didnít look at the victory so while they were building the innings they didnít set themselves targets.

    But what can we expect from a team that idolises these mediocre players like Misbah, Azhar and co. The whole batting strategy has been built in their gutless image

  21. #21
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    Again brilliant effort today by England - have left themselves 119 to get in 23 overs before the new ball is taken. The entire approach is so positive and inspiring and makes for great test cricket.

    Had Babar Azam's Pakistan been in England's place today, they would have played for the draw and ended up losing anyway!

  22. #22
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    Pakistan were negative.

    But, to be fair, Pakistan were facing much better bowling attack.


    Bangladeshi Guy

  23. #23
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    As usual, people are focusing on the wrong aspects because they can accept the reality. It is not about intent and desire, it is about the lack of ability.

    Pakistan has only one batsman (Babar) that has the ability to score quickly against world class bowlers without throwing his wicket away. Pakistan drew the Karachi Test because they knew that the only thing they could from that situation was draw the game. Going for the target was beyond their capacity.

    Test cricket is not about emotions; it is about playing around your limitations. It is better to go for a cowardly draw when the series is still 0-0 than suffer a heroic defeat.

  24. #24
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    Pakistan has a number of players who can step up and win tight matches for the side. But this has been the case for far too long, the side has a very defeatist mentality. In hindsight, there is no reason why that Karachi test could not have been won considering how set the two main batters were. But Pakistan came out with the intent to draw rather than win.

    You can't be one of the top sides in the world with that mentality. Australia for me has always had this mentality. India and New Zealand have developed it in recent years. And England seem to be running away with it at the moment.

    And the rot starts all the way at the top beginning with idiots like Ramiz who dished out pitches that did nothing to play to Pakistan's strengths. That's an acute lack of self-awareness. But you have to hold the head-coach and think-tank responsible too who are the ones responsible for strategizing.

  25. #25
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    People talking about pakistans batting slow all the time? what do you expect when you have selfish batsmen like imam who regularly just plays for himself and always slows down when getting towards a 50s or 100.

    Then you have the snail Azhar Ali regardless of wether pakistan is 200/1 or 2/1 when he comes he dead bats half volleys and half trackers and kills all momentum in the inns.

    pakistan played with with a cowards mentality vs Aus (in home conditions) and they will do the same vs england as well.

    Normally id give england no chance of beating pakistan in a test series in UAE or pakistan. But the negative cowardice cricket will play into englands hands at end of this year.

  26. #26
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    Some context is needed. I would like to see Bairstow and Root bat this freely on a Day 5 detiorating pitch in UAE, Lahore, Mumbai, Colombo e.t.c. English wickets more or less remain the same 5 days in a row. That said, our Pakistani batsmen will be served with a better approach

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Some context is needed. I would like to see Bairstow and Root bat this freely on a Day 5 detiorating pitch in UAE, Lahore, Mumbai, Colombo e.t.c. English wickets more or less remain the same 5 days in a row. That said, our Pakistani batsmen will be served with a better approach
    Really, did you see the pitches in Pakistan for the Australia series. No flatter pitches have ever been prepared.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Third Man View Post
    Really, did you see the pitches in Pakistan for the Australia series. No flatter pitches have ever been prepared.
    Yes but its not easy to bash the ball around on a slow deteriorating Day 5 wicket against someone like Nathan Lyon. Australian Pacers were no mugs either, they grew up playing with the Kookaburra ball and Starc, Cummins have a lot of experience under their belt. Pakistan was not playing an inferior team by any stretch.

  29. #29
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    When you have a top 5 of Abdullah Imam Azhar Fawad thereís little hope of quick runs in test cricket the batting line up needs batsmen like Umar Akmal and Haider Ali to have any chance of scoring at a quicker rate in chases and the first innings.

    A lot of momentum that can be gained is lost by these slow batsmen on flat wickets but on bowler friendly wickets with pace and bounce they are all sitting ducks with their techniques and ageing reflexes in the cases of Azhar and Fawad.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rana View Post
    Pakistan are a coward mentality batting side

    An international team that opens T20 cricket with Babar and Rizwan in order to bat out overs without losing wickets have no business trying what the big boys of cricket do!
    The next T20 WC is going to be another issue with a steady approach we will most likely fall short against the best teams in high scoring matches no B teams there batting and bowling lineups will be at full strength.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savak View Post
    Yes but its not easy to bash the ball around on a slow deteriorating Day 5 wicket against someone like Nathan Lyon. Australian Pacers were no mugs either, they grew up playing with the Kookaburra ball and Starc, Cummins have a lot of experience under their belt. Pakistan was not playing an inferior team by any stretch.
    Its all about the mentality. Switch into ODI mode and bat like its an ODI. This is what England have done against India and NZ. It has worked wonders.

  32. #32
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    We are the first casualty of this new era where chasing steep 4th innings targets seems to be becoming more commonplace.

    Has happened to us thrice this year.


    Have some Sehwag in your life.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SM1989 View Post
    Its all about the mentality. Switch into ODI mode and bat like its an ODI. This is what England have done against India and NZ. It has worked wonders.
    Let's see, if Eng can pull off a steep 4th inngs chase on a deteriorating 5th day pitch in India/Pak...before bashing other teams.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmal View Post
    Let's see, if Eng can pull off a steep 4th inngs chase on a deteriorating 5th day pitch in India/Pak...before bashing other teams.
    They will certainly attempt it under Bazís leadership and that will commendable. Its all about the mentality. Those with negative mentalities will fall back on excuses about the pitch and conditions whereas those with a positive mindset wonít let that wear them down.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SM1989 View Post
    Its all about the mentality. Switch into ODI mode and bat like its an ODI. This is what England have done against India and NZ. It has worked wonders.
    The pitches have supported such a style of play with not much turn or swing on a day 5 pitch in England. Attempting such an approach a detiorating Day 5 pitch in UAE, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh will be fraught with danger.

  36. #36
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    Here are couple of gems in England's thought process. Complete opposite of conventional wisdom.

    "Thinking outside the box, England had Stuart Broad padded up late on the fourth day of the Edgbaston Test. If one of Root or Bairstow got out, Broad would have tried to take a chunk out of the target in rapid time. Instead of a nightwatchman, they were calling him the "nighthawk".

    "The second is that if a pitch is good for batting, the best time to claim wickets is early in the match - England have taken the maximum 80 available to them so far this summer."

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