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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Just to be clear on a few things, guys....

    An Ahmadi can only get married to a non-Ahmadi girl by first obtaining the permission to do so from the Worldwide Head of the Community. Anyone who does it on his own is in trouble within the Community itself the moment it is found out. So this completely bins the theory of Ahmadis hiding their faith from their would-be spouses. I´m myself an Ahmadi and I´ve never seen or known any Ahmadi man marrying outside the Community by "deception". Ahmadi women, on the other hand, aren´t allowed to marry outside their faith anyway - unless demanded by some extreme circumstances (just adding it as a footnote). There´re so many views, ideas, and theories about us, but nobody ever bothers to ask us what we´re and what our views are. Nobody. How different is this from some people in the West hating on Islam without finding out from Muslims themselves about their beliefs? I find no difference between the two.

    I just thought of clearing up this matter, lest further theories of "Marital deception" are put forth about us. This is not an invitation to be drawn into a debate over the faith itself, though, as debating the Ahmadiyya faith isn´t quite allowed here on the forum, given how controversial and sensitive the issue is.
    Informative post and it does discards the marriage by deception theory straight to the garbage bin.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Will any authority of Ahmedi community will say explicitly on record , that even if someone does not believe Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , he is a Muslim and will enter paradise.


    You may ask your elders , and see what there response is.


    Two years back I was working with a Ahmedi person. Now he has left thejob because of health issues. I asked him personally one day , that tell me honestly , I am not Ahmedi , and do not believe in Mirza Ghulam to be prophet . So what you think about me. He being an honest person said I cannot say it here .


    When you accept someone as a prophet , it itself is shariah law , prophets are from Allah only. Allah chooses them. Its not like we can say that since Isa AS or Musa AS did good deeds they were made prophets .


    When someone is chosen by Allah swt , we have to believe , because he is representative of Allah on the earth, anyone who disbelieves he is kafir.


    Now , what I have noticed is that common Ahmedi people have different views regarding Mirza ghulam. There are those who claim him to be prophet, some say that since he 20 years did not claim to be prophet he is not a prophet in true sense , but kind of messiah , some say that he is mujadid or Mahdi etc. You get contradicting views.


    Now , if you or any Ahmedi claims him to be Mahdi , Mujhtahid etc then there is no issue at all. ( I do not consider him that ).


    That would mean that for Ahmedis rest are also Muslims , and for Muslims also , Ahmedis would be Muslims , like other sects.


    For example , In India there is a place called Jaunpur , there a man Moudod Jaunpuri lived. He claimed to be Mahdi . Still now his group and followers are active. NO Muslim call them kafir , the reason is simple , he did not claim to be prophet.


    The finality of prophet is a hisar for Ummah , it is a blessing , because even the most misguided sects in Islam will stay within Ummah of the prophet. Another prophet means another nation.


    Also , you can see that in last few years there have been several other claimaints of prophet hood , Mahdi , messiah e Moudood etc by people , who belong to Ahmedi group. I feel that you know them , I do not need to make them famous here.


    This is the issue when you break the finality of prophethood , it will keep the claimaints alive and make further groups.

    The problem is that, when in a debate the whole discussion revolves around one particular set of beliefs or a faith, the person who opposes it can throw off 10 questions, claims, or accusations in 10 sentences, and the person defending it will probably require five to six sentences to address each one of them. I hope that you see my point. Here too, I won´t go into the rights and wrongs of the Ahmadiyya faith - the forum doesn´t allow that. For example, you´ve mentioned that the belief in another Prophet automatically means a new Shariah and a new Ummah (nation). However, that is highly debatable and incorrect, in my opinion, but discussing this issue would right away lead us into a debate of rights and wrongs, resulting in the violation of the forum policies. This thread has already gone long enough and it´ll a pity if it gets locked or removed due to anything on my part. However, the maximum that I can do is to present our point of view.


    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Will any authority of Ahmedi community will say explicitly on record , that even if someone does not believe Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , he is a Muslim and will enter paradise.

    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....


    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.


    See the answer of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)! Allah knows best how to deal with His Servants.


    Regarding the issue of other Muslims being disbeliever. At most, I can only present our point of view, without discussing the rights and wrongs. In our view, there´re two types of disbelief....


    1. One is of denying the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), rejecting the religion of Islam itself. Such a person himself declares and announces his disbelief, and we´re left with no choice but to classify him amongst disbelievers - this being the person´s own absolute choice and freedom of faith.


    2. The other is of having a weakness in your faith, or in terms of your action, despite being a Muslim, and this is what we classify as indirect kufr (disbelief). Such a Muslim, despite being incomplete in his faith in some aspect or the other, is still a part of the Muslim Ummah and the general body of the Muslim community; and this is exactly the kind of disbelief which we ascribe to non-Ahmadis. Therefore, non-Ahmadi Muslims are still a part of the Muslim community or nation and hold their full right to identify themselves as Muslims, and we too - in our literature, writings, speeches etc., - call them as Muslims. The word "disbeliever", or any other such term, is not used for other Muslims in our literature etc., whenever they´ve been discussed or referred to in the general sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    When someone is chosen by Allah swt , we have to believe , because he is representative of Allah on the earth, anyone who disbelieves he is kafir.

    Now, again, instead of going into the rights or wrongs of our respective beliefs, I shall stick to only presenting our point of view, in order to avoid making this thread altogether a case of a debate between two sets of beliefs.


    3. We believe that Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s Prophethood was NOT an independent one. He was an Ummati Nabi, meaning a Prophet subordinate to the Prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The former´s Prophethood holds no value in its own capacity and is wholly and completely dependent upon the Prophethood of the Holy Prophet. Therefore, the rejection of Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s Prophethood is an indirect denial of a commandment of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. This is similar to a Muslim who consults a soothsayer, for example. In a Hadith, the Holy Prophet has condemned such a person as a disbeliever, but that doesn´t mean that such a person forfeits his right to be identified as a Muslim.


    For example, recently I heard a Muslim scholar say in a TV programme that any Muslim who kills another another Muslim, without there being a justifiable reason to do so, becomes a kaafir right away. Now, what does it mean? Is such a person now a Jew, a Christian, or a Hindu now? What´s the religious identity of such "Muslims" now who´ve been sent to prison for the offence of killing (another Muslim) or have been pronounced the capital punishment? What are they now? What's their identity now?

    It is much similar to Allah saying in the Holy Qur`an that He told Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) that his son wasn't his son. What did it mean, then? Was Prophet Noah wrong all the while in believing that his son was his son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Now , what I have noticed is that common Ahmedi people have different views regarding Mirza ghulam. There are those who claim him to be prophet, some say that since he 20 years did not claim to be prophet he is not a prophet in true sense , but kind of messiah , some say that he is mujadid or Mahdi etc. You get contradicting views.

    If an Ahmadi without much knowledge isn´t aware of our beliefs, it doesn´t mean that there prevails a confusion over our beliefs. Sometimes, it depends on whom you´ve asked the question, and sometimes it depends on the understanding of the person who has asked the question and whether he´s aware of our basic beliefs. Right now, there´re only two primary groups of the Ahmadiyya Community and their beliefs are....


    1. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was an Ummati Nabi, the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. This is the majority group.


    2. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. These are the beliefs of the Lahore Group and they´re the minority group. They do not believe him to be a Prophet.


    I´ve been most late in submitting my reply due to other activities, but bear in mind I´ve exclusively stuck to presenting our beliefs and our point of view, instead of going into as to who´s right and who not. To say that we classify other Muslims as disbelievers, this being the primary subject of the conversation between us, is grossly unfair and a huge misinterpretation of our beliefs and the writings of our elders - and it is so often claimed here on the forum. We can continue the debate, but I shall only proceed if you're answer my questions as well because I've answered yours, such as the one which you asked at the very beginning of your above post.


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ_Pal View Post
    Love Jihad stories only come out when the girl complains to the police about the alleged cheating. Some times girls know that the man is a Muslim and they willfully marry them. But due to Love Jihad cases, even the genuine ones become suspect. Parents will say that the boy has brainwashed their girl and she is too young to realize the plan.
    If the girl knows someone is a Muslim , and still marries them , its not the guys fault . If the legislative assembly has decieded that after a certain someone is adult and can take decisions in life , that should be up held. There is no point in making such excuses.

    As far as Islam is concerned , marriage cannot be done by hiding critical facts.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    The problem is that, when in a debate the whole discussion revolves around one particular set of beliefs or a faith, the person who opposes it can throw off 10 questions, claims, or accusations in 10 sentences, and the person defending it will probably require five to six sentences to address each one of them. I hope that you see my point. Here too, I won´t go into the rights and wrongs of the Ahmadiyya faith - the forum doesn´t allow that. For example, you´ve mentioned that the belief in another Prophet automatically means a new Shariah and a new Ummah (nation). However, that is highly debatable and incorrect, in my opinion, but discussing this issue would right away lead us into a debate of rights and wrongs, resulting in the violation of the forum policies. This thread has already gone long enough and it´ll a pity if it gets locked or removed due to anything on my part. However, the maximum that I can do is to present our point of view.





    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....


    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.


    See the answer of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)! Allah knows best how to deal with His Servants.


    Regarding the issue of other Muslims being disbeliever. At most, I can only present our point of view, without discussing the rights and wrongs. In our view, there´re two types of disbelief....


    1. One is of denying the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), rejecting the religion of Islam itself. Such a person himself declares and announces his disbelief, and we´re left with no choice but to classify him amongst disbelievers - this being the person´s own absolute choice and freedom of faith.


    2. The other is of having a weakness in your faith, or in terms of your action, despite being a Muslim, and this is what we classify as indirect kufr (disbelief). Such a Muslim, despite being incomplete in his faith in some aspect or the other, is still a part of the Muslim Ummah and the general body of the Muslim community; and this is exactly the kind of disbelief which we ascribe to non-Ahmadis. Therefore, non-Ahmadi Muslims are still a part of the Muslim community or nation and hold their full right to identify themselves as Muslims, and we too - in our literature, writings, speeches etc., - call them as Muslims. The word "disbeliever", or any other such term, is not used for other Muslims in our literature etc., whenever they´ve been discussed or referred to in the general sense.





    Now, again, instead of going into the rights or wrongs of our respective beliefs, I shall stick to only presenting our point of view, in order to avoid making this thread altogether a case of a debate between two sets of beliefs.


    3. We believe that Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s Prophethood was NOT an independent one. He was an Ummati Nabi, meaning a Prophet subordinate to the Prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The former´s Prophethood holds no value in its own capacity and is wholly and completely dependent upon the Prophethood of the Holy Prophet. Therefore, the rejection of Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s Prophethood is an indirect denial of a commandment of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. This is similar to a Muslim who consults a soothsayer, for example. In a Hadith, the Holy Prophet has condemned such a person as a disbeliever, but that doesn´t mean that such a person forfeits his right to be identified as a Muslim.


    For example, recently I heard a Muslim scholar say in a TV programme that any Muslim who kills another another Muslim, without there being a justifiable reason to do so, becomes a kaafir right away. Now, what does it mean? Is such a person now a Jew, a Christian, or a Hindu now? What´s the religious identity of such "Muslims" now who´ve been sent to prison for the offence of killing (another Muslim) or have been pronounced the capital punishment? What are they now? What's their identity now?

    It is much similar to Allah saying in the Holy Qur`an that He told Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) that his son wasn't his son. What did it mean, then? Was Prophet Noah wrong all the while in believing that his son was his son?




    If an Ahmadi without much knowledge isn´t aware of our beliefs, it doesn´t mean that there prevails a confusion over our beliefs. Sometimes, it depends on whom you´ve asked the question, and sometimes it depends on the understanding of the person who has asked the question and whether he´s aware of our basic beliefs. Right now, there´re only two primary groups of the Ahmadiyya Community and their beliefs are....


    1. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was an Ummati Nabi, the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. This is the majority group.


    2. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. These are the beliefs of the Lahore Group and they´re the minority group. They do not believe him to be a Prophet.


    I´ve been most late in submitting my reply due to other activities, but bear in mind I´ve exclusively stuck to presenting our beliefs and our point of view, instead of going into as to who´s right and who not. To say that we classify other Muslims as disbelievers, this being the primary subject of the conversation between us, is grossly unfair and a huge misinterpretation of our beliefs and the writings of our elders - and it is so often claimed here on the forum. We can continue the debate, but I shall only proceed if you're answer my questions as well because I've answered yours, such as the one which you asked at the very beginning of your above post.
    You are free to ask questions and refute my point , that is what a discussion is meant to be. I do not think anyone here should have a problem with that.

    Why does prophethood not mean a shariah ? When a prophet is sent to a particular group of people , those who do not believe in them , they are called disbelievers , is that not a shariah ruling ?


    It is not a matter of judgement , its about considering others as Muslim , who do not accept any new prophet after Muhammad SAW.

    Having weak Iman makes a second kind of kufr ? From where did you get that , that is called sin , not kufr.
    If you look at all the Muslims , everyone has shortcomings , that does not mean they are classified as minor kafirs.

    The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims.

    The problem with the Ummati Nabi term is that this has absolutely NO ground in Quran and hadith . Prophet says that my position with Ali is like Musa with Haroun but after me there is NO prophet.

    If Ali could not become a Ummati Nabi , how can someone else after hundreds of years after ?


    Again you said prophet said a person is disbeliever , but he does not lose his identity as a Muslim. The Prophet said this nowhere. A person who is disbeliever , his /her marriage is broken , they cannot inherit etc.

    Killing someone is a general term , you have to look into the cause of killing. Also , Quran gives a chance for such person to give qisas , the same way a person who has done disbelief can also repent.

    If a person kills someone without justification , and has not repented by qisas , Allah has said clearly in Quran that such a person will be in hell forever. Even there is a hadith regarding this.


    Allah swt did not say Noah son was not his son , it was said his deeds were not like someone who belongs to his family. ( Quran 11: 46 )


    If you ask any Muslim whether a educated or illiterate , any sect like shia , barelvi , deobandi , sufi etc who your prophet is , they will all know. This is fundamental believe.

    Ahmedis respond in a different way to the same question regarding Mirza Ghulam .

    Yes , I agree that there are two major beliefs in Ahmadis , one Lahori other the main one.

    The Lahoris have throughout believed the same thing , they just made some changes so that others have a soft stance towards them.

    Nevertheless I already said that this Ummati Nabi is an innovation and there is NO evidence of such a thing in authentic sources.

    Now , as far as Mahdi is concerned , you are free to assume anyone , it is not fundamental part of Islam. There have been several Mahdi claimants before Mirza Ghulam and I am sure you know there have been after him as well.

    Furthermore , if we look into the hadith about Mahdi , does that even match Mirza Ghulam in any way ? No it does not.

    As I mentioned before also , for example your Khalifa considers the claim of Mirza Ghulam as authentic , why does he deny the claims of other Ahmedis who claim to be Messiah , Mahdi and receiving revelations , people like Nasir Sultani , Munir Ahmed , Ghaffar Janba etc?

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    You are free to ask questions and refute my point , that is what a discussion is meant to be. I do not think anyone here should have a problem with that.

    Why does prophethood not mean a shariah ? When a prophet is sent to a particular group of people , those who do not believe in them , they are called disbelievers , is that not a shariah ruling ?


    It is not a matter of judgement , its about considering others as Muslim , who do not accept any new prophet after Muhammad SAW.

    Having weak Iman makes a second kind of kufr ? From where did you get that , that is called sin , not kufr.
    If you look at all the Muslims , everyone has shortcomings , that does not mean they are classified as minor kafirs.

    The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims.

    The problem with the Ummati Nabi term is that this has absolutely NO ground in Quran and hadith . Prophet says that my position with Ali is like Musa with Haroun but after me there is NO prophet.

    If Ali could not become a Ummati Nabi , how can someone else after hundreds of years after ?


    Again you said prophet said a person is disbeliever , but he does not lose his identity as a Muslim. The Prophet said this nowhere. A person who is disbeliever , his /her marriage is broken , they cannot inherit etc.

    Killing someone is a general term , you have to look into the cause of killing. Also , Quran gives a chance for such person to give qisas , the same way a person who has done disbelief can also repent.

    If a person kills someone without justification , and has not repented by qisas , Allah has said clearly in Quran that such a person will be in hell forever. Even there is a hadith regarding this.


    Allah swt did not say Noah son was not his son , it was said his deeds were not like someone who belongs to his family. ( Quran 11: 46 )


    If you ask any Muslim whether a educated or illiterate , any sect like shia , barelvi , deobandi , sufi etc who your prophet is , they will all know. This is fundamental believe.

    Ahmedis respond in a different way to the same question regarding Mirza Ghulam .

    Yes , I agree that there are two major beliefs in Ahmadis , one Lahori other the main one.

    The Lahoris have throughout believed the same thing , they just made some changes so that others have a soft stance towards them.

    Nevertheless I already said that this Ummati Nabi is an innovation and there is NO evidence of such a thing in authentic sources.

    Now , as far as Mahdi is concerned , you are free to assume anyone , it is not fundamental part of Islam. There have been several Mahdi claimants before Mirza Ghulam and I am sure you know there have been after him as well.

    Furthermore , if we look into the hadith about Mahdi , does that even match Mirza Ghulam in any way ? No it does not.

    As I mentioned before also , for example your Khalifa considers the claim of Mirza Ghulam as authentic , why does he deny the claims of other Ahmedis who claim to be Messiah , Mahdi and receiving revelations , people like Nasir Sultani , Munir Ahmed , Ghaffar Janba etc?
    There was one very important point in my post which seems to be getting skipped here, I´m afraid. It was.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183
    The problem is that, when in a debate the whole discussion revolves around one particular set of beliefs or a faith, the person who opposes it can throw off 10 questions, claims, or accusations in 10 sentences, and the person defending it will probably require five to six sentences to address each one of them. I hope that you see my point....
    Look, brother, I neither have the time nor the energy to be getting into a prolonged religious debates, one of the reasons behind which being that I don´t think that we´ll go anywhere with it. Besides, what I said regarding in my above post about wanting to avoid a debate about the Ahmadiyya faith, I said it from the point of view of the moderation team here. I was once a part of it, and I know that it´s ideally desired that such discussions are avoid, lest they get out of hand.

    Anyway; so there have been made multiple points in your post. Your points being.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Why does prophethood not mean a shariah ? When a prophet is sent to a particular group of people , those who do not believe in them , they are called disbelievers , is that not a shariah ruling ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Having weak Iman makes a second kind of kufr ? From where did you get that , that is called sin , not kufr.
    If you look at all the Muslims , everyone has shortcomings , that does not mean they are classified as minor kafirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    The problem with the Ummati Nabi term is that this has absolutely NO ground in Quran and hadith . Prophet says that my position with Ali is like Musa with Haroun but after me there is NO prophet.

    If Ali could not become a Ummati Nabi , how can someone else after hundreds of years after ?
    So, these are your points. Please select ONE of these points from your post, and I shall answer that, and we shall simply stick to that particular point only. Please, select one. However, please know that I´ll be taking my time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims.
    Hold on! Just as I was about to submit my post, I read this part of your post. When and where did I say this?! Where exactly? Now, we´re not moving an inch before you prove that I wrote what you assert that I wrote. I think that it´s of utmost value that we clear this particular point before we proceed on any other point in our discussion because the most important thing and the least that a Muslim can and must do in a debate is to be truthful, otherwise the whole discussion loses all its value.

    So, please point out where I said that the word "disbeliever" is not discussed in our literature?


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    There was one very important point in my post which seems to be getting skipped here, I´m afraid. It was.....



    Look, brother, I neither have the time nor the energy to be getting into a prolonged religious debates, one of the reasons behind which being that I don´t think that we´ll go anywhere with it. Besides, what I said regarding in my above post about wanting to avoid a debate about the Ahmadiyya faith, I said it from the point of view of the moderation team here. I was once a part of it, and I know that it´s ideally desired that such discussions are avoid, lest they get out of hand.

    Anyway; so there have been made multiple points in your post. Your points being.....







    So, these are your points. Please select ONE of these points from your post, and I shall answer that, and we shall simply stick to that particular point only. Please, select one. However, please know that I´ll be taking my time.



    Hold on! Just as I was about to submit my post, I read this part of your post. When and where did I say this?! Where exactly? Now, we´re not moving an inch before you prove that I wrote what you assert that I wrote. I think that it´s of utmost value that we clear this particular point before we proceed on any other point in our discussion because the most important thing and the least that a Muslim can and must do in a debate is to be truthful, otherwise the whole discussion loses all its value.

    So, please point out where I said that the word "disbeliever" is not discussed in our literature?
    The discussions are not for individuals , its for everyone who wants to go through them. You will make your points, I will make mine. Those who read they themselves will judge.

    Nothing will go out of hand. I am not someone who will make baseless allegations , like some people do , for example Mirza Ghulam died in the washroom etc. My discussions are always within respectful boundaries.

    You can take time to make your points , you need not leave your necessary work to write here. Whenever you have time you can make your points.

    All the three points I made were in response to your statements. You can respond to them one by one , whenever you can.


    You wrote

    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    The Quran and hadith does speak about believers and disbelievers , and also inhabitants of Paradise and hell.

    Also , let me know what was the important point you made in your post which was skipped by me ?
    Last edited by Justcrazy; 20th November 2022 at 00:30.

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    Please note

    This is an extremely sensitive topic

    If we find that people are not respecting each other's beliefs and being dismissive then we will bin this thread


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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Please note

    This is an extremely sensitive topic

    If we find that people are not respecting each other's beliefs and being dismissive then we will bin this thread
    This is not open for discussion.

    Do not post replies to this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    The discussions are not for individuals , its for everyone who wants to go through them. You will make your points, I will make mine. Those who read they themselves will judge.
    The two posts above my MenInG should´ve clarified as to why I was again and again mentioning that this is a controversial topic the discussion on which isn´t always most welcomed by the staff here, and I can fully understand them, of course. These threads can get out of hand quickly and often end up getting binned, as has already been kind of hinted above by him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    You wrote

    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    The Quran and hadith does speak about believers and disbelievers , and also inhabitants of Paradise and hell.
    Read carefully again what I actually wrote there. You missed out on a very key part in a hurry to jump to conclusions. The words "... from amongst the commen men... " are clearly indicative of what I was saying. I was referring to common people, and it doesn´t mean that our literature is silent about whether people like Pharaoh or Abu Jahl are destined to be condemned to hell or not, or that our literature is silent about whether noble Prophets of Allah or their most noble Companions are going to Paradise or not (Allah forbid!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims.
    Now, this claim on your part is now clearly an allegation without proof and is a clear case of wanting to twisting my words, despite them being clear. How can I say that our literature doesn´t discuss the word "disbeliever", when the whole point of our discussion is the allegation by our opponents that we´ve labelled others as disbelievers, and I´ve even already posted above a clarification of such references from our writings? Does this even remotely make sense that I should be saying something such, when we´re discussing the references themselves from our literature? Does it make sense at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183
    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this.
    Now, I must state here as to what I meant by this, in particular the bit about common men.

    The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers.

    I now come back to my point....

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183
    So, please point out where I said that the word "disbeliever" is not discussed in our literature?
    Where exactly did I write that what you claimed?
    Last edited by DHONI183; 9th December 2022 at 01:42.


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    .... Now, I must state here as to what I meant by this, in particular the bit about common men.

    The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers....
    "... We never punish until We have sent a Messenger" - Qur´an 17:16.

    This is what Allah says about the worldly punishment that descends upon nations which reject His Messengers. How much sense would it make for Him yet, on the other hand, to punish people in the Hereafter, even if they stand unaware of the Holy Prophet or Islam as religion? Of course, He´ll Himself decide as to how much of evidence of the truth of Islam was established before a disbeliever, how much of an opportunity he had to get to know the truth. Also, He´ll Himself, and He Alone, will judge by taking into count the mental capabilities of a disbeliever and how for developed or not developed his understand was or wasn´t. Allah Alone knows all of it best.

    So, that was one of the aspects of the meaning of "that" part of my post which was jumped upon here without much thought or reflection.


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    How is this insecurity ? A person has right to to know whom they are marrying , Ahmedis are already proven to be pretending cheaters . They use all resources of Islam and then back stab Muslims .
    Ahmedis backstabbing? Weren’t they the biggest supporters for the creation of Pakistan when others were ambivalent. Surely to a Pakistani Muslim, creation of Pakistan ought to be the biggest contribution towards Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmal View Post
    A person has every right to know the beliefs of his/her spouse.
    And what if both the man and wife are Ahmadi? They know each others religion.

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    I was at a recent nikah for a relative at the Badshahi Masjid.

    I was taken aback when maulvi started reciting confirmation that Ahmedis are not Muslims in the nikah recital.

    The hate for Ahmedis is off the scales in this country. It is quite disconcerting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    Ahmedis backstabbing? Weren’t they the biggest supporters for the creation of Pakistan when others were ambivalent. Surely to a Pakistani Muslim, creation of Pakistan ought to be the biggest contribution towards Islam.
    I am talking about Islam here , not any country.

    As I said before , Ahmedis use all resources of Islam , and change the fundamentals of the religion.

    A disbeliever , they clearly say that we do not believe in Islam and move on. The Bahis who follow Bahullah , also clearly say that they do not follow Islam , no one is bothered by them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    The two posts above my MenInG should´ve clarified as to why I was again and again mentioning that this is a controversial topic the discussion on which isn´t always most welcomed by the staff here, and I can fully understand them, of course. These threads can get out of hand quickly and often end up getting binned, as has already been kind of hinted above by him.




    Read carefully again what I actually wrote there. You missed out on a very key part in a hurry to jump to conclusions. The words "... from amongst the commen men... " are clearly indicative of what I was saying. I was referring to common people, and it doesn´t mean that our literature is silent about whether people like Pharaoh or Abu Jahl are destined to be condemned to hell or not, or that our literature is silent about whether noble Prophets of Allah or their most noble Companions are going to Paradise or not (Allah forbid!).



    Now, this claim on your part is now clearly an allegation without proof and is a clear case of wanting to twisting my words, despite them being clear. How can I say that our literature doesn´t discuss the word "disbeliever", when the whole point of our discussion is the allegation by our opponents that we´ve labelled others as disbelievers, and I´ve even already posted above a clarification of such references from our writings? Does this even remotely make sense that I should be saying something such, when we´re discussing the references themselves from our literature? Does it make sense at all?



    Now, I must state here as to what I meant by this, in particular the bit about common men.

    The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers.

    I now come back to my point....



    Where exactly did I write that what you claimed?
    I also mentioned to Men Ig , that I do not use marketplace language in discussions or resort to character asassination in discussions.

    Allah does not mention names of people who will enter paradise or hell , he means attributes.
    During the time of companions also , people claimed to be prophets , companions fought and killed them. Did they fight them considering they were Muslims?

    I will not understand what you mean other than what your post says. You clearly said the word disbeliever is not discussed by you in your literature , that is what I will suppose to understand. Now if you mean something else , you can clarify that.

    All the cases you mentioned are true. But here what we are talking about is people whom Allah has said will be in hell , the disbeliever , hypocrites etc. Those who are from inside the heart.
    I know no where said one who has faith in his heart will be considered as a disbeliever.

    Now , suppose I believe in Allah , and I say that I do not believe in Quran , will I be considered as Muslim? Having faith means having faith in all fundamental articles of Islam. Believing in Muhammad to be final prophet , is fundamental. It is NOT a wahid narration , there are many hadith which insist on that.

    Also as I said , if your sect believes that after Muhammad , there can be prophets , then why does not Mr Masoor accept the claims of those Ahmedis who are getting revelations. I am sure a person who gets revelations is superior to Khalifa .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    I was at a recent nikah for a relative at the Badshahi Masjid.

    I was taken aback when maulvi started reciting confirmation that Ahmedis are not Muslims in the nikah recital.

    The hate for Ahmedis is off the scales in this country. It is quite disconcerting.
    You consider them as Muslims ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    You consider them as Muslims ?
    No but I didn’t think they would be mentioned in the nikah.

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    Socially Pakistan started out a few centuries behind other countries in the region. These lot are making sure we stay behind a few more. Pakistan will be stuck in stone ages and this social conservatism will drag the country down with it.
    I hope Pakistan grows up someday in accepting that not everyone can have an identical set of beliefs. Learn to appreciate diversity and respect other people’s beliefs.

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    I think pakistán has been going backward and will keep on going backward for the time being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    No but I didn’t think they would be mentioned in the nikah.
    Trust me on this.

    We will soon get to a point where extremists from more mainstream sects will also mention that other groups are kaffir during Nikah's.

    Brelvis mentioning Wahabis etc etc.

    And they will all do it for the same reasons - to stop people " cheating".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    No but I didn’t think they would be mentioned in the nikah.
    So you basically agree with the statement , disagree with the place ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrez Pakistani View Post
    Socially Pakistan started out a few centuries behind other countries in the region. These lot are making sure we stay behind a few more. Pakistan will be stuck in stone ages and this social conservatism will drag the country down with it.
    I hope Pakistan grows up someday in accepting that not everyone can have an identical set of beliefs. Learn to appreciate diversity and respect other people’s beliefs.
    This is not about not being tolerant to others belief. This is a case of fraud. Even Bahais believe Bahullah to be a prophet , no Muslim had a issue with them. Because they clearly declared that they believe in new prophet and believe in his book.

    In this case they are hijacking Islam and presenting there teachings as Islam , both cases are different.

    One is free to believe in Mirza Ghulam as a prophet or others Ahmedis who recently claimed to have received ilham etc , b ut they cannot hide behind the wall of Islam and propagate own ilhams and revelations as part of Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Trust me on this.

    We will soon get to a point where extremists from more mainstream sects will also mention that other groups are kaffir during Nikah's.

    Brelvis mentioning Wahabis etc etc.

    And they will all do it for the same reasons - to stop people " cheating".
    Difference of other sects is in matter of scholars , not regarding the prophet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    So you basically agree with the statement , disagree with the place ?
    I disagree with deliberate targeting of minority groups which this seems a case of?

    My point was I was surprised as I wouldn't think this was a big problem. I haven't heard this is a big issue in Pakistan.

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    And we are living in 2022 thats why Pakistan is backward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Difference of other sects is in matter of scholars , not regarding the prophet.
    It will happen eventually.

    We have got to the point where we think its acceptable to utter a few words of hatred against Mirzais on what should be a joyous day.

    There is zero need for this. It is just a political stunt to step harder on the throats of an already marginalised community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    It will happen eventually.

    We have got to the point where we think its acceptable to utter a few words of hatred against Mirzais on what should be a joyous day.

    There is zero need for this. It is just a political stunt to step harder on the throats of an already marginalised community.
    This is what I was thinking, why bring Mirzais into it on what should be a momentous occasion.

    Living rent free on the mind but quite bit more sinister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    I disagree with deliberate targeting of minority groups which this seems a case of?

    My point was I was surprised as I wouldn't think this was a big problem. I haven't heard this is a big issue in Pakistan.
    I agree that what that particular cleric did was wrong and was not required in that situation.

    But at the same time , this is also true , that Ahmedis also do not consider rest of the Muslims as Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badboy_1 View Post
    And we are living in 2022 thats why Pakistan is backward
    Accepting Ahmedis as Muslims will make Pakistan supepower ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    It will happen eventually.

    We have got to the point where we think its acceptable to utter a few words of hatred against Mirzais on what should be a joyous day.

    There is zero need for this. It is just a political stunt to step harder on the throats of an already marginalised community.
    Who has marganilized them ? It is they themselves have done that ? When you are not part of Islam , just accept it and move on. You are following a different prophet , follow him and his teachings , why impersonate as Muslim and corrupt Islamic teachings ?

    No , no sensible Muslim will deny finality of prophet . This finality of prophet is a big blessings for the ummah , if you have ability to understand. It is not a small thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    This is not about not being tolerant to others belief. This is a case of fraud. Even Bahais believe Bahullah to be a prophet , no Muslim had a issue with them. Because they clearly declared that they believe in new prophet and believe in his book.

    In this case they are hijacking Islam and presenting there teachings as Islam , both cases are different.

    One is free to believe in Mirza Ghulam as a prophet or others Ahmedis who recently claimed to have received ilham etc , b ut they cannot hide behind the wall of Islam and propagate own ilhams and revelations as part of Islam.
    I don’t get this. If you don’t believe them to be Muslims then fine. But it their religion and let them be. Get a life.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrez Pakistani View Post
    I don’t get this. If you don’t believe them to be Muslims then fine. But it their religion and let them be. Get a life.
    If I make my own product with my own ingredients and label that as coca cola and sell in the market , will I be allowed to do so ?

    The issue with Ahmedis is not that they believe Mirza Ghulam to be a prophet , they may worship him also if they like. No one will care. But when you hide behind mask of Islam and preach people what is not Islam , you are bound to face such reactions.

    As I mentioned above , this is not a small or negotiable matter for Muslims. If you want to practice your religion , it is fine , do not tamper others belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Who has marganilized them ? It is they themselves have done that ? When you are not part of Islam , just accept it and move on. You are following a different prophet , follow him and his teachings , why impersonate as Muslim and corrupt Islamic teachings ?

    No , no sensible Muslim will deny finality of prophet . This finality of prophet is a big blessings for the ummah , if you have ability to understand. It is not a small thing.
    We dont have a copyright over Islam, they can call themselves what they like and don't have to accept our definition of Islam.

    Their beliefs come from a flawed interpretation of the same books that we use.

    In fact, their beliefs have been thoroughly refuted by our ulema and there is no need to rub their noses in the dirt further.

    In fact mentioning them in the nikkahnama just gives them further publicity and a bigger platform for their erroneous beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    We dont have a copyright over Islam, they can call themselves what they like and don't have to accept our definition of Islam.

    Their beliefs come from a flawed interpretation of the same books that we use.

    In fact, their beliefs have been thoroughly refuted by our ulema and there is no need to rub their noses in the dirt further.

    In fact mentioning them in the nikkahnama just gives them further publicity and a bigger platform for their erroneous beliefs.
    Brother , I have pointed out to the issues with Ahmedis , now if you do not understand that and think it is a casual thing , then there is no way to make my point clear.

    The companions waged war against claimaint of prophethood. They did not say that let them do what they want. There was a treaty with jews , but not with false claimaint of prophet hood.

    I know they have been refuted by Muslim scholars , not only that they have been exposed by Ex Ahmedis themselves.

    I also said above that the I do not agree with what cleric did , but overall what Ahmedis are doing is wrong , and they should not hide behind Islam. They should be confident of there own teachings and books and propagate own religion instead of hijacking others . If they continue to hijack Islam , the reaction would be aggressive , Muhammad SAW being last prophet is a sensitive issue for Muslims. This cannot be compromised.

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    Everyone has made their points.

    Unless you have some new fact to add, I suggest we move on.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    Everyone has made their points.

    Unless you have some new fact to add, I suggest we move on.
    Fair enough. I may cease to post in this thread anyway - for now at least. I leave it to you to decide what to do with further posts in this thread or the thread itself, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I will not understand what you mean other than what your post says. You clearly said the word disbeliever is not discussed by you in your literature , that is what I will suppose to understand. Now if you mean something else , you can clarify that.
    You keep on claiming again and again that I´ve said that the word disbeliever is not discussed in our literature but are yet to point out the post in which I wrote it. Now, instead of doing that, you keep on changing the point of discussion in order to divert the attention.

    You were in such a hurry to prove that our literature differs from the Holy Qur´an and Hadith that you ended up accusing me of what I never wrote at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Also as I said , if your sect believes that after Muhammad , there can be prophets , then why does not Mr Masoor accept the claims of those Ahmedis who are getting revelations. I am sure a person who gets revelations is superior to Khalifa .
    Things such as this are a clear example of the fact that you keep on jumping from one point to another and keep saying provocative things to have me react strongly. Without intending to offend anyone here, but grown up and mature people don´t say such things in a religious debate. The aim of a religion debate should either be to learn about each other´s beliefs through the discussion or to either refute each other´s beliefs, instead of acting childishly. You´re defeating the very purpose of it. If you´ve ever read how non-Muslims, particularly those of the West, go on about things in discussions related to Islam, you´ll realise how you sound more like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    All the cases you mentioned are true. But here what we are talking about is people whom Allah has said will be in hell , the disbeliever , hypocrites etc. Those who are from inside the heart.
    I know no where said one who has faith in his heart will be considered as a disbeliever.
    In my post, I also provided clear examples of people other than just those "Who´re disbelievers at heart" but, as usual, you seem to have either skipped it altogether or weren´t able to comprehend it in the first place.

    I actually regret even replying to your first post itself in the thread in which you quoted because you´ve been acting very strange, as if you don´t read before composing your reply. Now, since we´ve sadly not been able to have a fruitful discussion, I may cease to participate in this childish and absolutely purposeless face-off, firstly because you keep on accusing me of something which I never wrote here and are even yet to provide the post in which I wrote what you allege. However, below is a recap for others of the whole discussion on this whole thing about the word disbeliever being discussed or not in our literature....

    You wrote:
    "Will any authority of Ahmedi community will say explicitly on record , that even if someone does not believe Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , he is a Muslim and will enter paradise."

    I replied:
    "The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.

    See the answer of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)! Allah knows best how to deal with His Servants."

    Your next reply:
    "The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims."

    My next reply:
    "Hold on! Just as I was about to submit my post, I read this part of your post. When and where did I say this?! Where exactly? Now, we´re not moving an inch before you prove that I wrote what you assert that I wrote. I think that it´s of utmost value that we clear this particular point before we proceed on any other point in our discussion because the most important thing and the least that a Muslim can and must do in a debate is to be truthful, otherwise the whole discussion loses all its value.

    So, please point out where I said that the word "disbeliever" is not discussed in our literature?"

    Your next reply in which you also quoted me:
    "You wrote

    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    The Quran and hadith does speak about believers and disbelievers , and also inhabitants of Paradise and hell."

    My next reply:
    "Read carefully again what I actually wrote there. You missed out on a very key part in a hurry to jump to conclusions. The words "... from amongst the commen men... " are clearly indicative of what I was saying. I was referring to common people, and it doesn´t mean that our literature is silent about whether people like Pharaoh or Abu Jahl are destined to be condemned to hell or not, or that our literature is silent about whether noble Prophets of Allah or their most noble Companions are going to Paradise or not (Allah forbid!).



    Now, this claim on your part is now clearly an allegation without proof and is a clear case of wanting to twisting my words, despite them being clear. How can I say that our literature doesn´t discuss the word "disbeliever", when the whole point of our discussion is the allegation by our opponents that we´ve labelled others as disbelievers, and I´ve even already posted above a clarification of such references from our writings? Does this even remotely make sense that I should be saying something such, when we´re discussing the references themselves from our literature? Does it make sense at all?



    Now, I must state here as to what I meant by this, in particular the bit about common men.

    The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers.

    I now come back to my point....

    Where exactly did I write that what you claimed?"

    My additional footnote to my reply:
    " "... We never punish until We have sent a Messenger" - Qur´an 17:16.

    This is what Allah says about the worldly punishment that descends upon nations which reject His Messengers. How much sense would it make for Him yet, on the other hand, to punish people in the Hereafter, even if they stand unaware of the Holy Prophet or Islam as religion? Of course, He´ll Himself decide as to how much of evidence of the truth of Islam was established before a disbeliever, how much of an opportunity he had to get to know the truth. Also, He´ll Himself, and He Alone, will judge by taking into count the mental capabilities of a disbeliever and how for developed or not developed his understand was or wasn´t. Allah Alone knows all of it best.

    So, that was one of the aspects of the meaning of "that" part of my post which was jumped upon here without much thought or reflection."

    Now, you replied to it in the post that I´m herewith replying to. My head is in a spin right now because all that we´re doing is going around in circle. It feels as if I´m banging my head against a wall. The fact here is that you actually ruined our whole debate by accusing me of something which I never wrote to begin with. As can be read by anyone with a good eye-sight, I was talking about as to who´s going to paradise or hell and not about the word disbeliever. As for this question, regardless of how many times that you ask me, my answer will always be along the lines of the answer given by Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)....

    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.

    Another fact, as mentioned by Allah Himself, is.....

    "... He punishes whom He pleases and forgives whom He pleases; and Allah has power to do all things" - Qur´an 5:41.

    It´s His Right alone. I´m not going to commit shirk at your bidding, and my answer will stay the same, regardless of how often you ask me. So, that´s my bit on this. However,.....

    "The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims."

    .... Where exactly did I right this? The answer is, NOWHERE! You accused me of it and are now in a tangle and going here and there in reply to my simple request of proof, just because you yourself know that I never wrote it. Weeks into our discussion, still no evidence of myself having written it.

    Either way, enjoy your time!


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Fair enough. I may cease to post in this thread anyway - for now at least. I leave it to you to decide what to do with further posts in this thread or the thread itself, actually.



    You keep on claiming again and again that I´ve said that the word disbeliever is not discussed in our literature but are yet to point out the post in which I wrote it. Now, instead of doing that, you keep on changing the point of discussion in order to divert the attention.

    You were in such a hurry to prove that our literature differs from the Holy Qur´an and Hadith that you ended up accusing me of what I never wrote at all!



    Things such as this are a clear example of the fact that you keep on jumping from one point to another and keep saying provocative things to have me react strongly. Without intending to offend anyone here, but grown up and mature people don´t say such things in a religious debate. The aim of a religion debate should either be to learn about each other´s beliefs through the discussion or to either refute each other´s beliefs, instead of acting childishly. You´re defeating the very purpose of it. If you´ve ever read how non-Muslims, particularly those of the West, go on about things in discussions related to Islam, you´ll realise how you sound more like them.



    In my post, I also provided clear examples of people other than just those "Who´re disbelievers at heart" but, as usual, you seem to have either skipped it altogether or weren´t able to comprehend it in the first place.

    I actually regret even replying to your first post itself in the thread in which you quoted because you´ve been acting very strange, as if you don´t read before composing your reply. Now, since we´ve sadly not been able to have a fruitful discussion, I may cease to participate in this childish and absolutely purposeless face-off, firstly because you keep on accusing me of something which I never wrote here and are even yet to provide the post in which I wrote what you allege. However, below is a recap for others of the whole discussion on this whole thing about the word disbeliever being discussed or not in our literature....

    You wrote:
    "Will any authority of Ahmedi community will say explicitly on record , that even if someone does not believe Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , he is a Muslim and will enter paradise."

    I replied:
    "The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.

    See the answer of Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)! Allah knows best how to deal with His Servants."

    Your next reply:
    "The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims."

    My next reply:
    "Hold on! Just as I was about to submit my post, I read this part of your post. When and where did I say this?! Where exactly? Now, we´re not moving an inch before you prove that I wrote what you assert that I wrote. I think that it´s of utmost value that we clear this particular point before we proceed on any other point in our discussion because the most important thing and the least that a Muslim can and must do in a debate is to be truthful, otherwise the whole discussion loses all its value.

    So, please point out where I said that the word "disbeliever" is not discussed in our literature?"

    Your next reply in which you also quoted me:
    "You wrote

    The question regarding who´ll enter Paradise and who won´t from amongst the common men; our literature or discussions don´t revolve around this rather useless point, an utter waste of time. We leave it for Allah to decide such issues. It´s solely His Right to decide, and we don´t prefer to play god on this. In fact, there´s much guidance in the Holy Qur´an on this issue as well.....

    The Quran and hadith does speak about believers and disbelievers , and also inhabitants of Paradise and hell."

    My next reply:
    "Read carefully again what I actually wrote there. You missed out on a very key part in a hurry to jump to conclusions. The words "... from amongst the commen men... " are clearly indicative of what I was saying. I was referring to common people, and it doesn´t mean that our literature is silent about whether people like Pharaoh or Abu Jahl are destined to be condemned to hell or not, or that our literature is silent about whether noble Prophets of Allah or their most noble Companions are going to Paradise or not (Allah forbid!).



    Now, this claim on your part is now clearly an allegation without proof and is a clear case of wanting to twisting my words, despite them being clear. How can I say that our literature doesn´t discuss the word "disbeliever", when the whole point of our discussion is the allegation by our opponents that we´ve labelled others as disbelievers, and I´ve even already posted above a clarification of such references from our writings? Does this even remotely make sense that I should be saying something such, when we´re discussing the references themselves from our literature? Does it make sense at all?



    Now, I must state here as to what I meant by this, in particular the bit about common men.

    The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers.

    I now come back to my point....

    Where exactly did I write that what you claimed?"

    My additional footnote to my reply:
    " "... We never punish until We have sent a Messenger" - Qur´an 17:16.

    This is what Allah says about the worldly punishment that descends upon nations which reject His Messengers. How much sense would it make for Him yet, on the other hand, to punish people in the Hereafter, even if they stand unaware of the Holy Prophet or Islam as religion? Of course, He´ll Himself decide as to how much of evidence of the truth of Islam was established before a disbeliever, how much of an opportunity he had to get to know the truth. Also, He´ll Himself, and He Alone, will judge by taking into count the mental capabilities of a disbeliever and how for developed or not developed his understand was or wasn´t. Allah Alone knows all of it best.

    So, that was one of the aspects of the meaning of "that" part of my post which was jumped upon here without much thought or reflection."

    Now, you replied to it in the post that I´m herewith replying to. My head is in a spin right now because all that we´re doing is going around in circle. It feels as if I´m banging my head against a wall. The fact here is that you actually ruined our whole debate by accusing me of something which I never wrote to begin with. As can be read by anyone with a good eye-sight, I was talking about as to who´s going to paradise or hell and not about the word disbeliever. As for this question, regardless of how many times that you ask me, my answer will always be along the lines of the answer given by Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)....

    "Pharaoh said, 'What then will be the fate of the former generations?' He said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord recorded in a Book. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.' " - Qur´an 20:52-53.

    Another fact, as mentioned by Allah Himself, is.....

    "... He punishes whom He pleases and forgives whom He pleases; and Allah has power to do all things" - Qur´an 5:41.

    It´s His Right alone. I´m not going to commit shirk at your bidding, and my answer will stay the same, regardless of how often you ask me. So, that´s my bit on this. However,.....

    "The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims."

    .... Where exactly did I right this? The answer is, NOWHERE! You accused me of it and are now in a tangle and going here and there in reply to my simple request of proof, just because you yourself know that I never wrote it. Weeks into our discussion, still no evidence of myself having written it.

    Either way, enjoy your time!
    Your literature is different from Quran and hadith , is not something that is an allegation or hidden matter , it is very clear.
    The Quran , hadith , ijma of scholars , action of the companions all show that Muhammad SW is final prophet , and yet Ahmedis claim that someone else born in Qadiyan is a prophet.
    This is a 180 degree difference.


    I did not ask anything childish. We Muslims believe that After Muhammad SAW there can be no new prophet . Now your sect does not have this belief , so if anyone claims to be receiving revelations , you cannot reject him on grounds that Muhammad SAW is final prophet.
    Did Mirza Ghulam said that after him no more prophets will come? If not , then what is the ground on which you reject Nasir Sultanis , Janba claims?


    You quoted surah Taha 52 - 53 .

    Yes , knowledge of past is with Allah swt . Moses did not know about the past. Now the thing is that even before Moses there were prophets . If someone had listened to their prophets , they would be successful , those who did not , would not be.

    My submission to you was very simple. Since a lot of Ahmedis claim that they consider others as Muslims , so why not someone of authority clearly mention it that even if someone dies Not accepting Mirza Ghulam regarding what he claimed , will also enter paradise , just like Ahmedis.

    You wrote that our literature does not talk about other Muslims as disbelievers. Mirza Ghulam wrote worse language than this regarding those who do not accept his claim. Things which do not use in our daily language , and I do not think any Ahmedi also would use such language.

    Again you quoted surah maida Allah punishes whom he pleases…..

    The ayat just before says But whoever repents after their wrongdoing and mends their ways, Allah will surely turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Your literature is different from Quran and hadith , is not something that is an allegation or hidden matter , it is very clear.
    No, you said that I said that, whereas I nowhere said this. See below....

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    The word disbeliever is discussed in Quran as well as Hadith , but as you already said that it is not discussed in your literature , I agree , you made yourself clear that your literature is different from the literature followed by rest of the Muslims.
    .... Where exactly did I right this? The answer is, NOWHERE! You accused me of it and are now in a tangle and going here and there in reply to my simple request of proof, just because you yourself know that I never wrote it. Weeks into our discussion, still no evidence of myself having written it.
    At first it seemed as if you were mistaken or have comprehension issues, but it now seems as if it´s not the case. Normally, it goes down as a case of lying, but I do not want to go down that road just yet. Either way, yet another day goes by and you still haven´t provided any evidence of myself having ever written it. Incredible, really!

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    You quoted surah Taha 52 - 53 .

    Yes , knowledge of past is with Allah swt . Moses did not know about the past. Now the thing is that even before Moses there were prophets . If someone had listened to their prophets , they would be successful , those who did not , would not be.
    So, Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) didn´t know about the past, but you do?! Wow, just wow! I´m amazed and left speechless! An exalted Prophet of Allah didn´t know, but you do because you, apparently, have an answer which he didn´t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Again you quoted surah maida Allah punishes whom he pleases…..

    The ayat just before says But whoever repents after their wrongdoing and mends their ways, Allah will surely turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that" - the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as quoted in Sahih Bukhari, book 'Beginning of Creation'.

    Accepting repentance or not, and even forgiving people without or without it, or based on one or two good deeds, is ALL up to Allah Alone, but it seems that you stand unaware of it. In fact, you even seem to know something which Prophet Moses didn´t know! Astaghfirullah! I´ve been left shocked! Wow! And you have the courage to suggest that the source of the Ahmadiyya faith is not the Qur´an and Hadith.... Your source seems to be something higher, it seems, because you know the answer to a question to which Prophet Moses didn´t, and you even accuse people of writing things which they haven´t!

    Astaghfirullah!


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Believing in Muhammad to be final prophet , is fundamental. It is NOT a wahid narration , there are many hadith which insist on that.
    Let´s get this thing sorted out as well - as to how much you know about the Ahmadiyya faith because you yourself have said that you´ve had an Ahmadi colleague at work.

    So, what is our stance on a number of those Ahadith in which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has called himself the "Last Prophet" and said that "There´s no Prophet after me"? Do we Ahmadis reject all such Ahadith? Let´s see how much you know about our faith and how much you´ve studied it. Let´s get this sorted as well.

    So, please answer my question: do we Ahmadis reject all such Ahadith?


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    @DHONI183 I hope you don't mind me asking but how do lahori ahmedi & other ahmedi view each other?

    Also are there any other subordinate Prophets apart from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, is it possible for another one to appear.

    Again, I hope you don't mind these questions but I was intrigued by some of the points made in this thread.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    @DHONI183 I hope you don't mind me asking but how do lahori ahmedi & other ahmedi view each other?

    Also are there any other subordinate Prophets apart from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, is it possible for another one to appear.

    Again, I hope you don't mind these questions but I was intrigued by some of the points made in this thread.
    As for your first question, please see my post below from weeks ago......

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    If an Ahmadi without much knowledge isn´t aware of our beliefs, it doesn´t mean that there prevails a confusion over our beliefs. Sometimes, it depends on whom you´ve asked the question, and sometimes it depends on the understanding of the person who has asked the question and whether he´s aware of our basic beliefs. Right now, there´re only two primary groups of the Ahmadiyya Community and their beliefs are....


    1. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was an Ummati Nabi, the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. This is the majority group.


    2. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. These are the beliefs of the Lahore Group and they´re the minority group. They do not believe him to be a Prophet.
    As for your second question. No subordinate Prophet has appeared after Hadhrat Mirza sahib, but they CAN appear. Prophethood, a subordinate one to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), is open till the end of, well, the world. In fact, it is LIKELY (although not guaranteed) that Allah may even warn this world through a Prophet before destroying it completely before the Judgment Day.


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    @DeadlyVenom sorry, I misread your first question.

    There was a strong disagreement between the two groups, but the "heat" has subsided in the sense that there exist very Lahore Movement Ahmadis. You rarely see them in your daily life. However, even back then, the difference never mounted to violence. We used to respect other each and even used to hold conferences together where both the parties could present their views. The Head of our Community even paid a visit to a mosque of theirs in Berlin some years ago, and it was all in good spirit.


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    @DeadlyVenom I´ve known cases of people in Pakistan, though, where people from these two groups used to have very good friendships. We still view each other as "Nearer to each other than others" due to the obvious hate that we get from others, or could get from others, based on our beliefs.


    "It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    @DHONI183 I hope you don't mind me asking but how do lahori ahmedi & other ahmedi view each other?

    Also are there any other subordinate Prophets apart from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, is it possible for another one to appear.

    Again, I hope you don't mind these questions but I was intrigued by some of the points made in this thread.
    Your (first) question actually reminds of something from a few years ago. Some Shia (or perhaps Sunni) bigwig on Twitter claimed that our group of Ahmadis had done a genocide of the Lahore group and had killed around 400 families of theirs and even raided and looted their house, or something. A person (someone whom I´ve known personally as well), tweeting from an official account of the Lahore group, was gracious and honest enough to deny such an outrageous claim right away.
    Last edited by DHONI183; 16th December 2022 at 00:26.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    No, you said that I said that, whereas I nowhere said this. See below....



    At first it seemed as if you were mistaken or have comprehension issues, but it now seems as if it´s not the case. Normally, it goes down as a case of lying, but I do not want to go down that road just yet. Either way, yet another day goes by and you still haven´t provided any evidence of myself having ever written it. Incredible, really!



    So, Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) didn´t know about the past, but you do?! Wow, just wow! I´m amazed and left speechless! An exalted Prophet of Allah didn´t know, but you do because you, apparently, have an answer which he didn´t.



    "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that" - the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as quoted in Sahih Bukhari, book 'Beginning of Creation'.

    Accepting repentance or not, and even forgiving people without or without it, or based on one or two good deeds, is ALL up to Allah Alone, but it seems that you stand unaware of it. In fact, you even seem to know something which Prophet Moses didn´t know! Astaghfirullah! I´ve been left shocked! Wow! And you have the courage to suggest that the source of the Ahmadiyya faith is not the Qur´an and Hadith.... Your source seems to be something higher, it seems, because you know the answer to a question to which Prophet Moses didn´t, and you even accuse people of writing things which they haven´t!

    Astaghfirullah!
    If I make a mistake somewhere , or something is not part of your belief , then you can point that out . Many Ahmedis do not know much about the writings of Mirza Ghulam. In fact if you ask common Ahmedis about what they believe about Mirza ghulam , you will get very different answers. So , if something is your aqeedah , and I got that wrong , then I apologize , but what I am talking about here is Ahmedi aqeedah which Mirza Ghulam himself wrote.

    I never said I know about those people , neither did Moses. The point is that from the Quran you know that those people who follow their prophets are successful , and those who did not are at a loss . There are hadith on this behalf as well.

    A person who dies as a Mushrik , will be in hell , that is what Quran says , now you cannot say that I am not sure about this. Allah swt mentions the attributes of people in hell and Paradise , HE does not take individual names.

    Yes Allah forgave the prostitute. Has any scholar said that prostitution is kufr ? You can say it is a sin , a major one maybe. Doing major sin , keeps you within fold of Islam. Allah swt has nowhere said he will not forgive sins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Let´s get this thing sorted out as well - as to how much you know about the Ahmadiyya faith because you yourself have said that you´ve had an Ahmadi colleague at work.

    So, what is our stance on a number of those Ahadith in which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has called himself the "Last Prophet" and said that "There´s no Prophet after me"? Do we Ahmadis reject all such Ahadith? Let´s see how much you know about our faith and how much you´ve studied it. Let´s get this sorted as well.

    So, please answer my question: do we Ahmadis reject all such Ahadith?
    As far as Ahmedi belief system or for the matter of fact , any faith , Muslims , Hindus , Christians , the source is there books , that is what we have to check to see what are the fundamentals.

    Now , in all the faiths , there are people who have their own personal belief system in parallel.

    As far as General Ahmedis are concerned, I doubt many believe Mirza Ghulam to be a prophet , majority do not know he made that claim. Even the lahori Ahmedis categorically deny Him to be a prophet.

    I do not know what you aqeedah is , its not possible for me to say. I can go by what you say .

    You previously said you do not belief Mirza Ghulam to be a genuine prophet but a subordinate prophet.

    But firstly , there is NO such thing as subordinate prophet in Quran or hadith , and secondly you yourself know if you form such a aqeedah , then you have to accept all those people who claim to be subordinate prophets .

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I never said I know about those people , neither did Moses. The point is that from the Quran you know that those people who follow their prophets are successful , and those who did not are at a loss . There are hadith on this behalf as well.
    Excuse me what? On one hand you say that you know about them (but Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) did not!) and on one hand you say that you don´t! I´m actually left scratching my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    A person who dies as a Mushrik , will be in hell , that is what Quran says , now you cannot say that I am not sure about this. Allah swt mentions the attributes of people in hell and Paradise , HE does not take individual names.
    I can only yawn at this going around in circles. I´ve already answered this. Please re-read it below......

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    My next reply:
    "The God of Islam - the One, True, and the Only One - is a Merciful One Who Alone reserves the right to make this decision. You answer me, can we say for sure that such a person is certain to be condemned to hell who has never even heard of the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the religion of Islam? Or such a non-Muslim who suffers from one or the other mental illness and doesn´t have it in him to be making such decisions and has concept of life or religion? Or a person who suffers from some illness or disability which hinders him from getting to know about the truth? Or a person who, just a day before his death, had decided that the next day he would study Islam and contemplate the possibility of accepting it? Or a perhaps who had bought a copy of the Holy Qur´an a day before he died? Or a person who, on his way to making an announcement about his conversion to Islam, died in an accident? Or a disbeliever who, outwardly, appeared all his life as a disbeliever to us but had accepted Islam at heart? And there´re multiple such possibilities, actually. Although all, or at least most of them, would die as being counted amongst kufaar for us, but we´ve no idea as to how our Lord will judge and treat them. This is His job and we should, ideally, leave it to him, I suppose.

    So that´s the meaning of my phrase which you were heavily focused on and drew a meaning out of which other than what I had meant clearly. The meaning of my words was that it´s up to Allah Alone to decide how He treats those who´ve died, even if they´re disbelievers."

    My additional footnote to my reply:
    " "... We never punish until We have sent a Messenger" - Qur´an 17:16.

    This is what Allah says about the worldly punishment that descends upon nations which reject His Messengers. How much sense would it make for Him yet, on the other hand, to punish people in the Hereafter, even if they stand unaware of the Holy Prophet or Islam as religion? Of course, He´ll Himself decide as to how much of evidence of the truth of Islam was established before a disbeliever, how much of an opportunity he had to get to know the truth. Also, He´ll Himself, and He Alone, will judge by taking into count the mental capabilities of a disbeliever and how for developed or not developed his understand was or wasn´t. Allah Alone knows all of it best.

    So, that was one of the aspects of the meaning of "that" part of my post which was jumped upon here without much thought or reflection."
    And some, if not all, of those examples could also be applied to polytheists. Yes, as a general rule, polytheism is an unforgivable sin, but Allah Alone will decide what to do with each and every polytheist. A simple fact what you can´t seem to comprehend!

    You´ve been avoiding most of my questions, so please don´t do it again here.... I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Yes Allah forgave the prostitute. Has any scholar said that prostitution is kufr ? You can say it is a sin , a major one maybe. Doing major sin , keeps you within fold of Islam. Allah swt has nowhere said he will not forgive sins.
    Excuse me what?! This one too has me scratching my head, to be honest. Why do you mix up two topics or questions and act as if they´re one? Brother, please don´t mix up different points, as that would save us both a lot of time.

    A question: if it´s said about a certain deed that doing it is kufr, does it mean that doing an act of kufr puts you out of the fold of Islam? Is it so? Did I understand it right, respected brother? Please let me know because I want to learn a little as well, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    As far as Ahmedi belief system or for the matter of fact , any faith , Muslims , Hindus , Christians , the source is there books , that is what we have to check to see what are the fundamentals.

    Now , in all the faiths , there are people who have their own personal belief system in parallel.

    As far as General Ahmedis are concerned, I doubt many believe Mirza Ghulam to be a prophet , majority do not know he made that claim. Even the lahori Ahmedis categorically deny Him to be a prophet.

    I do not know what you aqeedah is
    , its not possible for me to say. I can go by what you say .

    You previously said you do not belief Mirza Ghulam to be a genuine prophet but a subordinate prophet.

    But firstly , there is NO such thing as subordinate prophet in Quran or hadith , and secondly you yourself know if you form such a aqeedah , then you have to accept all those people who claim to be subordinate prophets .
    So, your answer here is that you don´t know whether we reject all such Ahadith or not. You´ve also admitted that you don´t know what our beliefs are. That´s good to know because, all the while, you´ve been acting as some sort of an expert on our faith. Good to know.
    Last edited by DHONI183; 16th December 2022 at 01:34.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Excuse me what? On one hand you say that you know about them (but Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) did not!) and on one hand you say that you don´t! I´m actually left scratching my head.



    I can only yawn at this going around in circles. I´ve already answered this. Please re-read it below......



    And some, if not all, of those examples could also be applied to polytheists. Yes, as a general rule, polytheism is an unforgivable sin, but Allah Alone will decide what to do with each and every polytheist. A simple fact what you can´t seem to comprehend!

    You´ve been avoiding most of my questions, so please don´t do it again here.... I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?



    Excuse me what?! This one too has me scratching my head, to be honest. Why do you mix up two topics or questions and act as if they´re one? Brother, please don´t mix up different points, as that would save us both a lot of time.

    A question: if it´s said about a certain deed that doing it is kufr, does it mean that doing an act of kufr puts you out of the fold of Islam? Is it so? Did I understand it right, respected brother? Please let me know because I want to learn a little as well, you know.



    So, your answer here is that you don´t know whether we reject all such Ahadith or not. You´ve also admitted that you don´t know what our beliefs are. That´s good to know because, all the while, you´ve been acting as some sort of an expert on our faith. Good to know.
    Read the ayat again. The knowledge is with my Lord in a record. The people Pharaoh is referring to are people of the past who worshiped others besides Allah swt. There were other messengers before Moses as well.

    But Moses gave the rule clearly in previous ayats. In Ayat 48 of the same surah , Moses says punishment will be on those who turn away from truth .

    This holds true even now. I do not know what will happen to each person individually , but one who denies the truth will be punished . What is the truth Moses is referring to Here ? It is the books that those messengers got or the teachings of those messengers.


    Allah has said in Quran and also hadith speaks about this that Mushriks will be in Hell fire , if you find anything contrary in Quran , you are free to present evidence , I will certainly look into it.


    A certain deed is called as Kufr , but whether doing that puts you out of fold of Islam. This is a very general question. Unless you give me a practical example , it cannot be answered because of the ambiguity of Question.

    I do not know about your belief because you have not told me clearly. I do know about Ahmedis belief , because Mirza Ghulam has written them himself and it has been printed . Old editions are still available , so the changes made after his death are not something made by him , because dead people cannot change what they wrote.

    Now , you also made a point whether Ahmedis reject all those hadith or not. If they did not reject them and believed in them , they would have abstained from believing Mirza Ghulam as a prophet.

    If I believe in Quran to be Book of Allah , I would not go around bowing to Idols at the same time.

    Also , all the above questions you are asking me , you are free to ask , that is not the issue. But how are they related to Mirza Ghulam being a Mahdi or a subordinate prophet , or reflection of Jesus etc ?

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Allah has said in Quran and also hadith speaks about this that Mushriks will be in Hell fire , if you find anything contrary in Quran , you are free to present evidence , I will certainly look into it.
    My question was....

    "I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?"

    That´s the question. Please answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    A certain deed is called as Kufr , but whether doing that puts you out of fold of Islam. This is a very general question. Unless you give me a practical example , it cannot be answered because of the ambiguity of Question.
    But, in your last post you had written....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    Yes Allah forgave the prostitute. Has any scholar said that prostitution is kufr ? You can say it is a sin , a major one maybe. Doing major sin , keeps you within fold of Islam. Allah swt has nowhere said he will not forgive sins.
    What difference would it have made had any scholar called prostitution kufr? What were you implying by those words?

    Also, what were you implying by the words that "Doing a major sin keeps you within the fold of Islam"?

    As I see it, you were trying to imply that doing an act or deed of kufr does put you outside the fold of Islam, but now that I´ve asked you to repeat it in clear words, you´re not coming out with clear words.

    Let me rephrase the question in other words for you, had prostitution been called kufr, would it have put the person in question outside the fold of Islam? Would it? Please answer this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Also , all the above questions you are asking me , you are free to ask , that is not the issue. But how are they related to Mirza Ghulam being a Mahdi or a subordinate prophet , or reflection of Jesus etc ?
    One issue at a time, one at a time. First now answer my question about kufr.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    My question was....

    "I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?"

    That´s the question. Please answer.



    But, in your last post you had written....



    What difference would it have made had any scholar called prostitution kufr? What were you implying by those words?

    Also, what were you implying by the words that "Doing a major sin keeps you within the fold of Islam"?

    As I see it, you were trying to imply that doing an act or deed of kufr does put you outside the fold of Islam, but now that I´ve asked you to repeat it in clear words, you´re not coming out with clear words.

    Let me rephrase the question in other words for you, had prostitution been called kufr, would it have put the person in question outside the fold of Islam? Would it? Please answer this.



    One issue at a time, one at a time. First now answer my question about kufr.
    I replied to your question , Allah swt categorically says in the Quran that those who die as Mushriks will be in Hell fire . If you want I will quote the ayats , as well as hadith. Now if you have issue with that I cannot help , because I did not write them.


    You quoted the hadith in context of kufr , that is why I asked how is prostitution a kufr ?

    Which deed you want to ask about , you need to be clear with that , ambiguously saying kufr is not enough.

    Yes , if you talk about prostitution , if Allah had said in quran , or it had come in hadith as kufr , we would belief that. I am supposed to believe what the Quran and hadith are saying.

    I again repeat , what all these things have to do with the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam ? This thread is regarding Ahmedis believing Mirza to be a prophet.

    And if you say to me that you do not believe him to be any kind of prophet , but just a reformer or Mahdi , I would end the discussion . Because my discussions are with people who believe in prophets after Muhammad SAW .

    If you believe him to be a prophet , then I would certainly like you to tell me and everyone here why you consider him to be a prophet despite having so many hadeeth saying clearly in all the possible Arabic connotation that after Muhammad SAW there will be no new prophet.

    This is a very reasonable request.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I replied to your question , Allah swt categorically says in the Quran that those who die as Mushriks will be in Hell fire . If you want I will quote the ayats , as well as hadith. Now if you have issue with that I cannot help , because I did not write them.
    Erm, what? Why would you need to quote the verses and Ahadith when I´ve already stated that polytheism is indeed an unforgivable sin? My question, though, has throughout been....

    "I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?"

    Now, the question actually stems from your own very earlier post in this thread, which was.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    Will any authority of Ahmedi community will say explicitly on record , that even if someone does not believe Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , he is a Muslim and will enter paradise.
    I answered this question already, that it´s Allah Alone who decides as to who goes to Paradise and who is to be condemned to hell, but you´re evading my question throughout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    You quoted the hadith in context of kufr , that is why I asked how is prostitution a kufr ?
    Dear brother, I request you NOT to hit the reply button in haste and not to reply before reading. Please! This is now the second time where you´re either misquoting me or try to mislead about what I´ve written. I quoted the Hadith in context of forgiveness in the Hereafter. See!

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    .....

    "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that" - the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as quoted in Sahih Bukhari, book 'Beginning of Creation'.

    Accepting repentance or not, and even forgiving people without or without it, or based on one or two good deeds, is ALL up to Allah Alone, but it seems that you stand unaware of it.....
    Myself quoting this Hadith had nothing to do with kufr! Please stop misquoting me. It´s extremely tiring, having to go through old posts in this very thread to set it straight for people as to what the facts are. It´s a request, please, brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    I again repeat , what all these things have to do with the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam ?
    I don´t know either! I´m exactly as baffled as you´re because you were the one who brought in points such as kufr and forgiveness in the Hereafter. Ask yourself this, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    This thread is regarding Ahmedis believing Mirza to be a prophet.
    No. Again the same problem of not understanding things clearly. This thread is about a decision by the Punjab Government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy
    Having weak Iman makes a second kind of kufr ? From where did you get that
    Another instance of misquoting me(!), although this one is from an old post. Where did I write that?!

    Please, for the love of God, my dear brother, please try to stay factual! Please! I request.
    Last edited by DHONI183; 20th December 2022 at 23:01.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Erm, what? Why would you need to quote the verses and Ahadith when I´ve already stated that polytheism is indeed an unforgivable sin? My question, though, has throughout been....

    "I ask, will Allah condemn ALL mushrikeen to hell? Will He?"

    Now, the question actually stems from your own very earlier post in this thread, which was.....



    I answered this question already, that it´s Allah Alone who decides as to who goes to Paradise and who is to be condemned to hell, but you´re evading my question throughout.



    Dear brother, I request you NOT to hit the reply button in haste and not to reply before reading. Please! This is now the second time where you´re either misquoting me or try to mislead about what I´ve written. I quoted the Hadith in context of forgiveness in the Hereafter. See!



    Myself quoting this Hadith had nothing to do with kufr! Please stop misquoting me. It´s extremely tiring, having to go through old posts in this very thread to set it straight for people as to what the facts are. It´s a request, please, brother.



    I don´t know either! I´m exactly as baffled as you´re because you were the one who brought in points such as kufr and forgiveness in the Hereafter. Ask yourself this, not me.



    No. Again the same problem of not understanding things clearly. This thread is about a decision by the Punjab Government.



    Another instance of misquoting me(!), although this one is from an old post. Where did I write that?!

    Please, for the love of God, my dear brother, please try to stay factual! Please! I request.
    I know what Allah swt had said. If there is any ayat or hadith which says that certain Mushriks will go to hell , and certain will not , present it here , I will accept that. This I mentioned in previous posts , but you keep asking the same thing over and over again.

    Either you accept what has been said or bring in some ayat or hadith which says otherwise. These are the only two options.

    Now you connect it with the question I posed that any authority in Ahmedi will say that someone who without believing in Mirza Ghulam as prophet will enter paradise .
    Is not believing Mirza Ghulam equivalent to being a Mushrik ?

    I clearly said that A MUSLIM who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , will enter paradise . The matter to be noted is not his shirk , but denial of Mirza Ghulam to be anything .

    I have read what you wrote , , have I denied anywhere that Allah swt can forgive any sin he wants to. That is what Allah swt says , and at the same time he also says that he will not forgive shirk. So , both statements are there .

    That is why Allah swt did not say HE WILL FORGIVE all sins , he Said HE CAN forgive all sins.

    Allah swt himself is telling which sin is not forgiven .

    Yes , the thread is about the Punjab Government bringing that law. And that is the right thing they did. The issue with Ahmedis is not that they follow some other religion , the issue is not the kufr fatwas , there is nothing wrong , you or anyone is free to follow whatever you want. Tomorrow some Ahmedis can follow Mirza Masroor to be a prophet , there are already some Ahmedis who follow Mr Janba as the new recipient of Ilham .

    The issue is deception , using the literature of islam , claiming to be Muslims and following Muhammad SAW as prophet and destroying fundamental of Islam from inside , this is not acceptable.

    Mirza Ghulam is not the only claimant of prophethood or being Mahdi , before him around the same time Bahullah also claimed. But he did not deceive , he clearly said I am not part of Islam

    I will also repost the question to you , which I asked in an earlier post.

    If you believe him to be a prophet , then I would certainly like you to tell me and everyone here why you consider him to be a prophet despite having so many hadeeth saying clearly in all the possible Arabic connotations that after Muhammad SAW there will be no new prophet.

    I do not want to have a generic answer , I just want to know your personal reasons , this point is just for knowing the view of common Ahmedis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I know what Allah swt had said. If there is any ayat or hadith which says that certain Mushriks will go to hell , and certain will not , present it here , I will accept that. This I mentioned in previous posts , but you keep asking the same thing over and over again.

    Either you accept what has been said or bring in some ayat or hadith which says otherwise. These are the only two options.

    Now you connect it with the question I posed that any authority in Ahmedi will say that someone who without believing in Mirza Ghulam as prophet will enter paradise .
    Is not believing Mirza Ghulam equivalent to being a Mushrik ?

    I clearly said that A MUSLIM who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam to be prophet , will enter paradise . The matter to be noted is not his shirk , but denial of Mirza Ghulam to be anything .

    I have read what you wrote , , have I denied anywhere that Allah swt can forgive any sin he wants to. That is what Allah swt says , and at the same time he also says that he will not forgive shirk. So , both statements are there .

    That is why Allah swt did not say HE WILL FORGIVE all sins , he Said HE CAN forgive all sins.

    Allah swt himself is telling which sin is not forgiven .

    Yes , the thread is about the Punjab Government bringing that law. And that is the right thing they did. The issue with Ahmedis is not that they follow some other religion , the issue is not the kufr fatwas , there is nothing wrong , you or anyone is free to follow whatever you want. Tomorrow some Ahmedis can follow Mirza Masroor to be a prophet , there are already some Ahmedis who follow Mr Janba as the new recipient of Ilham .

    The issue is deception , using the literature of islam , claiming to be Muslims and following Muhammad SAW as prophet and destroying fundamental of Islam from inside , this is not acceptable.

    Mirza Ghulam is not the only claimant of prophethood or being Mahdi , before him around the same time Bahullah also claimed. But he did not deceive , he clearly said I am not part of Islam

    I will also repost the question to you , which I asked in an earlier post.

    If you believe him to be a prophet , then I would certainly like you to tell me and everyone here why you consider him to be a prophet despite having so many hadeeth saying clearly in all the possible Arabic connotations that after Muhammad SAW there will be no new prophet.

    I do not want to have a generic answer , I just want to know your personal reasons , this point is just for knowing the view of common Ahmedis.
    I think that we´re going nowhere in this debate. There seems to be a clear communication gap here or either we´re writing in different languages, it seems.

    Let´s settle this one. Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s claim to being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi, or any kind of Prophet, falls flat on its face if you´re able to produce convincing arguments regarding Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). So, let´s get this clear.

    Enlighten me, please. Where is Prophet Jesus right now? Where is he? Where is he? In this world or where?


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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    I think that we´re going nowhere in this debate. There seems to be a clear communication gap here or either we´re writing in different languages, it seems.

    Let´s settle this one. Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s claim to being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi, or any kind of Prophet, falls flat on its face if you´re able to produce convincing arguments regarding Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). So, let´s get this clear.

    Enlighten me, please. Where is Prophet Jesus right now? Where is he? Where is he? In this world or where?
    @Justcrazy the debate on Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will also settle the debate on Prophethood, obviously. I actually want to be enlightened on this and would really love to know as to where he is right now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    I think that we´re going nowhere in this debate. There seems to be a clear communication gap here or either we´re writing in different languages, it seems.

    Let´s settle this one. Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s claim to being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi, or any kind of Prophet, falls flat on its face if you´re able to produce convincing arguments regarding Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). So, let´s get this clear.

    Enlighten me, please. Where is Prophet Jesus right now? Where is he? Where is he? In this world or where?

    Isa AS alive or dead is a seperate topic , Mirza Ghulam being a prophet is a separate topic.

    My simple question you are avoiding , which is the basis of discussion. Being a Mahdi , Messaih , saint or prophet are different things altogether.

    I can only discuss if I know what you believe Mirza Ghulam to be , unless you clarify your stance , I cannot say anything. At least you need to be clear on what your stance is, and I am not saying you have to have popular Ahmedi stance , you just need to tell me what exactly your belief regarding him is.

    If You ask me my stance I would clearly say that I do not consider him anything , whether it is Mahdi or prophet etc.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Isa AS alive or dead is a seperate topic , Mirza Ghulam being a prophet is a separate topic.
    No, these are not separate topic. One establishes the other or proves the falsity of the other. We discuss the matter of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), and if you´ve strong arguments on it, then the claims of Hadhrat Mirza sahib fall flat on its face. Forget about being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi or anything, even a single word written or uttered by him loses all its credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    My simple question you are avoiding , which is the basis of discussion. Being a Mahdi , Messaih , saint or prophet are different things altogether.

    I can only discuss if I know what you believe Mirza Ghulam to be , unless you clarify your stance , I cannot say anything. At least you need to be clear on what your stance is, and I am not saying you have to have popular Ahmedi stance , you just need to tell me what exactly your belief regarding him is.

    If You ask me my stance I would clearly say that I do not consider him anything , whether it is Mahdi or prophet etc.
    Again, you yourself don´t read properly and don´t concentrate on things properly, and then accuse me of avoiding questions. The posts below clearly establish my beliefs, if only you were to read carefully.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    ... Right now, there´re only two primary groups of the Ahmadiyya Community and their beliefs are....


    1. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was an Ummati Nabi, the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. This is the majority group.


    2. Hadhrat Mirza sahib was the awaited Messiah, and the Imam Mahdi. These are the beliefs of the Lahore Group and they´re the minority group. They do not believe him to be a Prophet.....
    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    @DeadlyVenom sorry, I misread your first question.

    There was a strong disagreement between the two groups, but the "heat" has subsided in the sense that there exist very Lahore Movement Ahmadis. You rarely see them in your daily life. However, even back then, the difference never mounted to violence. We used to respect other each and even used to hold conferences together where both the parties could present their views. The Head of our Community even paid a visit to a mosque of theirs in Berlin some years ago, and it was all in good spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    @DeadlyVenom I´ve known cases of people in Pakistan, though, where people from these two groups used to have very good friendships. We still view each other as "Nearer to each other than others" due to the obvious hate that we get from others, or could get from others, based on our beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Your (first) question actually reminds of something from a few years ago. Some Shia (or perhaps Sunni) bigwig on Twitter claimed that our group of Ahmadis had done a genocide of the Lahore group and had killed around 400 families of theirs and even raided and looted their house, or something. A person (someone whom I´ve known personally as well), tweeting from an official account of the Lahore group, was gracious and honest enough to deny such an outrageous claim right away.
    I´ve, in my above posts, clearly stated the beliefs of the two major Ahmadiyya groups and then even made it clear as to which one I belong to, clearly!

    So, now, I ask again, where´s Prophet Jesus right now? In this world or where? Contrary to what you´re claiming, it seems as if you´re avoiding this topic. I never challenged your belief in this thread. It´s YOU who got jumpy in this thread to prove that the Ahmadiyya beliefs are contrary to the Holy Qur´an and Hadith and that our source of literature is different. Now, since you made these tall claims, I assumed that you must be seated on a much better throne than me. So, now is the time to prove it, or else we both stand on even ground, don´t we? Our beliefs have been dismissed as un-Islamic and heretic anyway, so you shouldn´t be interested in our beliefs anyway, I suppose.

    So, where is Prophet Jesus right now?
    Last edited by DHONI183; 26th December 2022 at 15:48.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I agree that what that particular cleric did was wrong and was not required in that situation.

    But at the same time , this is also true , that Ahmedis also do not consider rest of the Muslims as Muslims.
    I think the cleric is only following the law that's been put in place. Though I don't think there are monitors around to check if this being done should the maulvi choose not to add this line.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    But at the same time , this is also true , that Ahmedis also do not consider rest of the Muslims as Muslims.
    Again! You keep on spreading misinformation based on the allegation of our opponents and based on their understanding of our writings, even though I´ve clarified this already. This is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order! Do you consider the religion of Islam a religion of terrorism and barbarianism (Allah forbid!) based on how the critics of Islam interpret the Holy Qur´an and Ahadith?

    The below are passages from the writings of Hadhrat Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Sahib, the second Caliph of our community.

    "It has been said that we forfeit our right to be Muslims by styling other people as disbelievers. But our calling other people disbelievers only means that we consider ourselves alone as true Muslims. Is it then possible for anyone to turn really true Muslims out of Islam? Our only offence, if offence it can be, which makes us forfeit our right to be part and parcel of the Muslim Community is that we do not regard other people to be as true and good Muslims as we regard, ourselves. We are sought to be expelled from the Muslim Community on this plea. But what an absurd plea! If that is the offence which renders us liable to expulsion and excommunication, then I would say with all the emphasis at my command, that this is an offence which is very freely committed by all the Muslims. Is there any sect of Muslims which has not been styled as kaafir by the other sects and vice versa?..... Moreover there is a great deal of difference between our definition of kufr and theirs. They understand by kufr to mean the denial of Islam, which is the meaning we do not ascribe to this term when using it about the non-Ahmadis. Our view is that if a person conforms to the tenets and teaching of Islam to a given extent, he is entitled to be called a Muslim. But when he falls below even that point, then although he may be called a Muslim, he cannot be regarded as a perfect Muslim..... He who calls another person a kaafir without rhyme or reason hurts his feelings and provokes a quarrel. We never do that. It is only when we are asked by a person as to what we think of him and we are compelled to give an answer that we say we take him to be a kaafir in the sense in which this term has been explained above" - Political Solidarity of Islam, page 7, 9 and 10.

    In 1953, the he was asked whether a person can be considered a Muslim if he has rejected Hadhrat Mirza sahib, and he himself stated, "Yes indeed, in common terms, he will still be considered a Muslim." Shedding light on the earlier writings by him on this topic, the following is what he had to say.......

    "It is evident from this statement itself that the people here I have in mind I take as Muslims. Therefore, when I use the word kaafir, I have in my mind disbelievers of the second kind which I have defined already, i.e., they are not driven or thrown out of the Millat. When I say they are outside the pale of Islam I have in my mind the view, by Mufradat-e-Raghib on page 240, where Islam has been shown to be of two kinds: one lower than the stage of Imaan; the other above the stage of Imaan. In Dunal Imaan, in the stage of lower than common Imaan, are included people whose Islam remains at a level lower than a proper Imaan and in the stage of higher than the common Imaan are Muslims who stand at a level of distinction in their faith, higher than the common level. This is why I said that some people fall outside the pale of Islam, I had in my mind people who come under the category of Dunal Imaan."

    Also, it is not only allowed but is considered mandatory upon Ahmadis to perform the funeral prayers of a non-Ahmadi Muslim, in case no non-Ahmadi comes forward to claim the dead body or in case no non-Ahmadis are available to perform the funeral prayers of the deceased. Why would we do that if we were to consider the the same as what they consider us to be? Even in our literature, speeches, gatherings etc., other Muslims are always referred to as Muslims, as opposed to disbelievers. So you can never equate our opinion on this issue with that of our opponents.

    This issue has been clarified pretty much, but you may feel free to keep on spreading misinformation just because you feel happy in doing what non-Muslim critics do with regards to the Holy Qur´an and Ahadith.
    Last edited by DHONI183; 27th December 2022 at 15:59.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    No, these are not separate topic. One establishes the other or proves the falsity of the other. We discuss the matter of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), and if you´ve strong arguments on it, then the claims of Hadhrat Mirza sahib fall flat on its face. Forget about being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi or anything, even a single word written or uttered by him loses all its credibility.



    Again, you yourself don´t read properly and don´t concentrate on things properly, and then accuse me of avoiding questions. The posts below clearly establish my beliefs, if only you were to read carefully.....









    I´ve, in my above posts, clearly stated the beliefs of the two major Ahmadiyya groups and then even made it clear as to which one I belong to, clearly!

    So, now, I ask again, where´s Prophet Jesus right now? In this world or where? Contrary to what you´re claiming, it seems as if you´re avoiding this topic. I never challenged your belief in this thread. It´s YOU who got jumpy in this thread to prove that the Ahmadiyya beliefs are contrary to the Holy Qur´an and Hadith and that our source of literature is different. Now, since you made these tall claims, I assumed that you must be seated on a much better throne than me. So, now is the time to prove it, or else we both stand on even ground, don´t we? Our beliefs have been dismissed as un-Islamic and heretic anyway, so you shouldn´t be interested in our beliefs anyway, I suppose.

    So, where is Prophet Jesus right now?
    If tomorrow I claim that Muhammad Ali Jinnah is dead and that is why I am him , will that make me one?

    Now what you are trying to say here is that since Isa AS is dead that is why Mirza Ghulam is a prophet .

    My simple question is from where did you get that ? What is the evidence of that

    Mirza Ghulam is NOT the only one who has made such claims , there have been several . So what makes you believe the rest of the claims were false and only Mirza Ghulam is right ?

    PS : I will stick to one point at a time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Again! You keep on spreading misinformation based on the allegation of our opponents and based on their understanding of our writings, even though I´ve clarified this already. This is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order! Do you consider the religion of Islam a religion of terrorism and barbarianism (Allah forbid!) based on how the critics of Islam interpret the Holy Qur´an and Ahadith?

    The below are passages from the writings of Hadhrat Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Sahib, the second Caliph of our community.

    "It has been said that we forfeit our right to be Muslims by styling other people as disbelievers. But our calling other people disbelievers only means that we consider ourselves alone as true Muslims. Is it then possible for anyone to turn really true Muslims out of Islam? Our only offence, if offence it can be, which makes us forfeit our right to be part and parcel of the Muslim Community is that we do not regard other people to be as true and good Muslims as we regard, ourselves. We are sought to be expelled from the Muslim Community on this plea. But what an absurd plea! If that is the offence which renders us liable to expulsion and excommunication, then I would say with all the emphasis at my command, that this is an offence which is very freely committed by all the Muslims. Is there any sect of Muslims which has not been styled as kaafir by the other sects and vice versa?..... Moreover there is a great deal of difference between our definition of kufr and theirs. They understand by kufr to mean the denial of Islam, which is the meaning we do not ascribe to this term when using it about the non-Ahmadis. Our view is that if a person conforms to the tenets and teaching of Islam to a given extent, he is entitled to be called a Muslim. But when he falls below even that point, then although he may be called a Muslim, he cannot be regarded as a perfect Muslim..... He who calls another person a kaafir without rhyme or reason hurts his feelings and provokes a quarrel. We never do that. It is only when we are asked by a person as to what we think of him and we are compelled to give an answer that we say we take him to be a kaafir in the sense in which this term has been explained above" - Political Solidarity of Islam, page 7, 9 and 10.

    In 1953, the he was asked whether a person can be considered a Muslim if he has rejected Hadhrat Mirza sahib, and he himself stated, "Yes indeed, in common terms, he will still be considered a Muslim." Shedding light on the earlier writings by him on this topic, the following is what he had to say.......

    "It is evident from this statement itself that the people here I have in mind I take as Muslims. Therefore, when I use the word kaafir, I have in my mind disbelievers of the second kind which I have defined already, i.e., they are not driven or thrown out of the Millat. When I say they are outside the pale of Islam I have in my mind the view, by Mufradat-e-Raghib on page 240, where Islam has been shown to be of two kinds: one lower than the stage of Imaan; the other above the stage of Imaan. In Dunal Imaan, in the stage of lower than common Imaan, are included people whose Islam remains at a level lower than a proper Imaan and in the stage of higher than the common Imaan are Muslims who stand at a level of distinction in their faith, higher than the common level. This is why I said that some people fall outside the pale of Islam, I had in my mind people who come under the category of Dunal Imaan."

    Also, it is not only allowed but is considered mandatory upon Ahmadis to perform the funeral prayers of a non-Ahmadi Muslim, in case no non-Ahmadi comes forward to claim the dead body or in case no non-Ahmadis are available to perform the funeral prayers of the deceased. Why would we do that if we were to consider the the same as what they consider us to be? Even in our literature, speeches, gatherings etc., other Muslims are always referred to as Muslims, as opposed to disbelievers. So you can never equate our opinion on this issue with that of our opponents.

    This issue has been clarified pretty much, but you may feel free to keep on spreading misinformation just because you feel happy in doing what non-Muslim critics do with regards to the Holy Qur´an and Ahadith.
    Is this your views or Ahmedi sects views ? Be honest , because what Mirza Ghulam and his so called Khalifas have written is very different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    I think the cleric is only following the law that's been put in place. Though I don't think there are monitors around to check if this being done should the maulvi choose not to add this line.
    If there is Law and he is following it it is okay , even if there is NO Law , and he does it still that is fine. Ahmedis were declared as disbelievers , not by one but all sects combined , it is not a fatwa of a local Moulvi , and it was done in Parliament after much deliberation , not in haste.

    The entire discussion is freely available on PDF , you can read it.

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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    If tomorrow I claim that Muhammad Ali Jinnah is dead and that is why I am him , will that make me one?
    Duh! What?! Does a vast majority of the Muslims believe that Quaid-e-Azam is alive and will return?! Do you even realise how seriously bad your comparison is? This one takes the cake!

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Now what you are trying to say here is that since Isa AS is dead that is why Mirza Ghulam is a prophet .

    My simple question is from where did you get that ? What is the evidence of that

    Mirza Ghulam is NOT the only one who has made such claims , there have been several . So what makes you believe the rest of the claims were false and only Mirza Ghulam is right ?

    PS : I will stick to one point at a time.
    Answered twice already in advance. See below.....

    "Let´s settle this one. Hadhrat Mirza sahib´s claim to being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi, or any kind of Prophet, falls flat on its face if you´re able to produce convincing arguments regarding Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). So, let´s get this clear.

    Enlighten me, please. Where is Prophet Jesus right now? Where is he? Where is he? In this world or where?"

    "We discuss the matter of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), and if you´ve strong arguments on it, then the claims of Hadhrat Mirza sahib fall flat on its face. Forget about being the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi or anything, even a single word written or uttered by him loses all its credibility.....

    So, now, I ask again, where´s Prophet Jesus right now? In this world or where?

    So, where is Prophet Jesus right now? "

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Is this your views or Ahmedi sects views ? Be honest , because what Mirza Ghulam and his so called Khalifas have written is very different.
    Gosh! I´m done with this, brother! Why don´t you read carefully before jumping on to reply to my post? Everything is stated there!

    In 1953, my father himself was three or four years old!

    Either way, please read carefully and save us both some time.
    Last edited by DHONI183; 28th December 2022 at 15:49.


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    Punjab mandates declaration on finality of Prophethood in marriage deed

    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Is this your views or Ahmedi sects views ? Be honest , because what Mirza Ghulam and his so called Khalifas have written is very different.
    Honesty in our discussion is one thing which I´ve been crying out loud for since weeks! You´ve not posted a single reference from our literature where we´ve declared others as disbelievers. Even without references, I´ve been most honest to admit that there´re references which have been twisted or misunderstood by our opponents, and I´ve posted their clarification and explanation from our literature. If I hadn´t been honest, I could´ve simply stayed in denial and never even accepted it to begin with. If anything, brother, I´ve been most honest here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    If there is Law and he is following it it is okay , even if there is NO Law , and he does it still that is fine. Ahmedis were declared as disbelievers , not by one but all sects combined , it is not a fatwa of a local Moulvi , and it was done in Parliament after much deliberation , not in haste.

    The entire discussion is freely available on PDF , you can read it.
    That's all well and good, but why not just celebrate the matrimony without adding negative bits or demonizing a whole community?

    I mean its not as if this line as been included since the advent of Nikah since there were no Ahmadis at that time, or even since the advent of the Ahmadi movement.

    Pakistan is not the only country with Ahmadi populations. To my understanding, it's not precondition of Nikah in these countries.

    No wonder Pakistan is seen as a backward and banana state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroll View Post
    That's all well and good, but why not just celebrate the matrimony without adding negative bits or demonizing a whole community?

    I mean its not as if this line as been included since the advent of Nikah since there were no Ahmadis at that time, or even since the advent of the Ahmadi movement.

    Pakistan is not the only country with Ahmadi populations. To my understanding, it's not precondition of Nikah in these countries.

    No wonder Pakistan is seen as a backward and banana state.
    If someone wants to be sure that Ahmedis are not cheating it is backward ? They alreading cheating masses about fundamentals of islam.

    All those who have claimed to be prophets or receiving divine revelations in last 10 years have all been Ahmedis , this is what happens when you allow false teaching to propagate.

    For Muslim people they are disbelievers , why should someone not take precaution against that ? Why is it not a precondition of nikah ? Nikah can be done only amongest Muslims and people of the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Honesty in our discussion is one thing which I´ve been crying out loud for since weeks! You´ve not posted a single reference from our literature where we´ve declared others as disbelievers. Even without references, I´ve been most honest to admit that there´re references which have been twisted or misunderstood by our opponents, and I´ve posted their clarification and explanation from our literature. If I hadn´t been honest, I could´ve simply stayed in denial and never even accepted it to begin with. If anything, brother, I´ve been most honest here.
    I have not given any evidence ? Evidence , regarding what ? If you ask 10 Ahmedis on the street about the status and position of Mirza Ghulam , they have 10 different answers . Unless you clarify what your individual belief regarding him is , no one can give evidence.

    What all Muslims believe about Jesus is not the point here , the point is regarding your believe. Are you expecting Isa AS to come ? NO

    That is the reason I gave that example. I am not addressing other Muslims here , because None of those Muslims consider Mirza Ghulam to be anything worthy .

    Now , if you ask me about my belief regarding Muhammad SAW , I will very clearly say , why are you not saying your belief regarding Mirza Ghulam and prove that from the Quran and hadith and shut me up ?

    I have asked so many times , but still you are not ready even to tell your belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    If they continue to hijack Islam , the reaction would be aggressive , Muhammad SAW being last prophet is a sensitive issue for Muslims. This cannot be compromised.
    No its not...

    Its made sensitive by lunatics. And it stays sensitives in countries like Pakistan or other backward countries or groups.

    If Person A believes that Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet and Person B does not believe so, it does not affect Person A or Person B. People have their beliefs and just leave them alone. By being aggressive or crazy is never gonna change anyone's belief.

    Anyways, Punjab govt made these very dumb bills. An Ahmadi might keep his beliefs intact while signing a Nikkahnama. If it was upto Pakistani people, they would start entering peoples body and convert them to what they believe is right according to their fore fathers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    No its not...
    Lol, you must be joking, the finality of prophethood of Muhammad saw is a redline for Muslims and Qadianis are rejected as disbelievers by overwhelming majority of Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    Lol, you must be joking, the finality of prophethood of Muhammad saw is a redline for Muslims and Qadianis are rejected as disbelievers by overwhelming majority of Muslims.
    The world population is about 7 billion, out of which the muslim population is 2 billion.

    There are 5 billion people that dont believe in Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    The world population is about 7 billion, out of which the muslim population is 2 billion.

    There are 5 billion people that dont believe in Islam.
    Sure, there are, but you can't pretend to be a Muslim, when you clearly reject one of the redlines of Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    Sure, there are, but you can't pretend to be a Muslim, when you clearly reject one of the redlines of Islam.
    by your definition if someone is pretending, than what harm is it causing you or the other 1.5 billion Muslims?

    How do beliefs harm people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    by your definition if someone is pretending, than what harm is it causing you or the other 1.5 billion Muslims?

    How do beliefs harm people?
    The problem is that Qadianis try to change Islam, they have literally invented their own religion, and yet want to call themselves as Muslims.

    No one will have a problem with them, if they call themselves as Non muslims, only because they have invented their own different religion and call it Islam, do people have a problem with them.

    I am 100 % against the state sanctioned persecution of Qadianis, but if they were honest about their completely different religion, they won't call themselves Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    The problem is that Qadianis try to change Islam, they have literally invented their own religion, and yet want to call themselves as Muslims.

    No one will have a problem with them, if they call themselves as Non muslims, only because they have invented their own different religion and call it Islam, do people have a problem with them.

    I am 100 % against the state sanctioned persecution of Qadianis, but if they were honest about their completely different religion, they won't call themselves Muslims.
    who cares what they call themselves? What matters is what you believe in, not what others choose to believe.

    If you believe in God and think God will protect Islam, than why is there need for humans to go out call others out and fight with them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    who cares what they call themselves? What matters is what you believe in, not what others choose to believe.

    If you believe in God and think God will protect Islam, than why is there need for humans to go out call others out and fight with them
    God works through believers. It is the believer's duty to fight the enemies of Islam to protect it. In the Quran Allah s.w.t commands the believers to fight in the way of Allah.

    If Qadianis weren't engaged in actively trying to subvert Islam, we would ignore them, but again that's not the case so they have to be fought intellectually and their efforts to undermine Islam have to be exposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    God works through believers. It is the believer's duty to fight the enemies of Islam to protect it. In the Quran Allah s.w.t commands the believers to fight in the way of Allah.

    If Qadianis weren't engaged in actively trying to subvert Islam, we would ignore them, but again that's not the case so they have to be fought intellectually and their efforts to undermine Islam have to be exposed.
    no he does not.

    If it is the duty of people to protect Islam, than that shows how weak our religion is if God himself cant protect it.

    By saying that, you make no difference between Islam and religions in which Idols are worshipped. Because they can claim as well that God works through believers.

    Fighting on beliefs is one of the most stupidest thing ever which I have realized as I have grown up. Its one mans belief vs another. Nobody wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    no he does not.

    If it is the duty of people to protect Islam, than that shows how weak our religion is if God himself cant protect it.

    By saying that, you make no difference between Islam and religions in which Idols are worshipped. Because they can claim as well that God works through believers.

    Fighting on beliefs is one of the most stupidest thing ever which I have realized as I have grown up. Its one mans belief vs another. Nobody wins.
    If God doesn't work through believers, why has Allah s.w.t commanded us to do Jihad ?

    We could sit idly, do nothing and think Allah will grant us victory anyway, but thats not how it works, we are told to fight the enemies of Islam whether it be physically, verbally or intellectually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    If it is the duty of people to protect Islam, than that shows how weak our religion is if God himself cant protect it.
    If we as Muslims don't defend and stand up for our religion to protect it from outsiders, we would end up just like Christians.

    Look at the state of Christianity today in the West, Christianity is mocked and insulted daily, but Christians don't do anything to defend their faith. No wonder then Christianity has failed to protect itself and is dying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    If God doesn't work through believers, why has Allah s.w.t commanded us to do Jihad ?

    We could sit idly, do nothing and think Allah will grant us victory anyway, but thats not how it works, we are told to fight the enemies of Islam whether it be physically, verbally or intellectually.
    you have taken these words out of context.

    Jihad is to do struggle. One can struggle to become a better person from a moral point of view. Yes, fighting a war on theological basis can also fall under it.

    Didn't God grand victory during the first battle of Islam? Prophet Muhammad prayed to god to intervene to help save the religion and God did intervene.

    At one point you claim what the state does with Ahmadis is wrong, but here you want the fight to be physical

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    If God doesn't work through believers, why has Allah s.w.t commanded us to do Jihad ?

    We could sit idly, do nothing and think Allah will grant us victory anyway, but thats not how it works, we are told to fight the enemies of Islam whether it be physically, verbally or intellectually.
    Just shows how weak God is if he has to rely on people to do his bidding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szrana007 View Post
    If we as Muslims don't defend and stand up for our religion to protect it from outsiders, we would end up just like Christians.

    Look at the state of Christianity today in the West, Christianity is mocked and insulted daily, but Christians don't do anything to defend their faith. No wonder then Christianity has failed to protect itself and is dying.
    wait what?

    Christians themselves realized how dumb it is to fight about beliefs. They understood this during the 16th or 17th century that fighting about beliefs is just useless, which is why they moved on from beliefs and concentrated on the world.

    Countries like Canada and USA dont need religion to tell them that stealing or corruption is wrong. West is much much much better than any country when it comes to be being fair.

    They dont need to defend their faith, people who believe in Jesus or the trinity will continue to believe. For them it does not matter what you think and it doesnt threaten their relgion. Hence, there are more christians today in the world.

    Only fragile ones are muslims

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