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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    How many SC batsmen have 50+ average outside SC? I would expect lot more batsmen to capitalize on flat tracks to inflate their average outside SC.

    It's not easy to play in alien conditions. That's why I rated Cook's last test performance very high.
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    reality!

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    But Indians are better than most of the teams in handling spin.
    Look at Swann in last test, Panesar now. 4fer and 5fer at the cost of nearly 100 runs.
    Spinners rarely get Indian wkts. cheaply. Even Mendis had to contend with a rampaging Sehwag.
    Look at the players who have scored runs against them, you will find only 2-3 batsmen out of 11 who have scored against spinners. And the reason for that is because those 2-3 batsmen worked hard for runs. They kept their temperament well and utilized the skills. They put the same concentration and effort as any other batsmen.

    So, just because we know Indians players play well against spin doesn't mean it's cruise ride for them. And speaking of current spin duo of England, they were sure tasting Indian batters' temperament and skill.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    What is up with taking off Draw matches' results from stat? I don't get it! It's just as if people want to twist the stat for their point!

    It's ridiculous!

    This is your real stat!

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting
    Last edited by cricketworm; 23rd November 2012 at 18:21.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  4. #484
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    ^ Look at the difference between number of matches with your stat and my link. You are missing whole lot of matches and large chunk of performances.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    What is up with taking off Draw matches' results from stat? I don't get it! It's just as if people want to twist the stat for their point!

    It's ridiculous!

    This is your real stat!

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting
    Just proved my point look at the ftbs averages jump.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    Just proved my point look at the ftbs averages jump.
    How do you prove that draw matches were flat wickets and those which were won and lost weren't?

    You just can't prove that. Test cricket was never just about winning or losing, that's why we have draw section still open.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    How do you prove that draw matches were flat wickets and those which were won and lost weren't?

    You just can't prove that. Test cricket was never just about winning or losing, that's why we have draw section still open.
    look at the scorecard, if both teams could not force a result than the pitch is flat , there are a few exceptions due to rain.

  8. #488
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    And if match is drawn how do you prove that it was batsmen's fault? What if it was bowler's fault who were unable to take 20 wickets? Does that make batsmen's effort useless? Ridiculous bias analysis.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    This is true.
    But 8-0 has given India a negative image.
    what Zahid87 says is also true.
    I didn't say otherwise ! I remember thinking in 2010 if Sehwag scores in the upcoming SA , Eng and Aus tours he has case for being the best opening bat ever.We know how that turned out.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    look at the scorecard, if both teams could not force a result than the pitch is flat , there are a few exception due to rain.
    I can create zillion scenarios and prove that those matches which were won and lost, were also played on flat wicket. But wickets were fallen because of batsmen's incompetence!

    It's just wrong and misleading assumptions to think that draw pitches were flat. Test cricket is whole different ball game when you do stat analysis, the best way is to see the every single match and should know the condition.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    And if match is drawn how do you prove that it was batsmen's fault? What if it was bowler's fault who were unable to take 20 wickets? Does that make batsmen's effort useless? Ridiculous bias analysis.
    bowlers unable to take 20 wickets because the pitch is flat.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    I can create zillion scenarios and prove that those matches which were won and lost, were also played on flat wicket. But wickets were fallen because of batsmen's incompetence!

    It's just wrong and misleading assumptions to think that draw pitches were flat. Test cricket is whole different ball game when you do stat analysis, the best way is to see the every single match and should know the condition.
    please do.

    lemme give you an example I think in 2010 nz toured india and lost the 3 match series 1-0, that time Indian test team was stronger.

    This year nz came and lost 2-0 against a weaker test side or not in form indian team.

    why was this?, simply because both the pitches in 2012 were not flat but 2 out 3 in 2010 were.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    bowlers unable to take 20 wickets because the pitch is flat.
    Wrong! That's just outright bogus assumptions. May be batsmen batted better and defied the loss? How do you assume that each side as same kind of skilled bowlers as other side? And how do you assume that all bowlers have skills to take wickets at will!What about the bowlers who have taken the wickets even on a flat wicket and force a win?


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    please do.

    lemme give you an example I think in 2010 nz toured india and lost the 3 match series 1-0, that time Indian test team was stronger.

    This year nz came and lost 2-0 against a weaker test side or not in form indian team.

    why was this?, simply because both the pitches in 2012 were not flat but 2 out 3 in 2010 were.
    How can you predict Indian team was stronger? What about NZ team? I can also say NZ team was stronger before and they were weaker now!

    And I just created few scenarios above, clear that for me.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  15. #495
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    Here is the example for you.

    This test was draw and tell me that Batsmen's skills 'weren't' tested here with straight face.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63070.html

    India needed only 2 wickets to win!

    But according to you this effort has gone to dump!


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    bowlers unable to take 20 wickets because the pitch is flat.
    I have posted the many matches
    which have ended / rained off with India only needing 1 or 2 wkts. to win.
    2 matches in WI in 2006, One in NZ in 2009 , one in SA in 97-98.
    There is only one at Lords where India got lucky.
    Indian batsman have saved many matches as well one test in WI 2006, In England 2002 Edgbaston.
    Matches like Lords 1996, Capetown 2011,Oval 2007,one test in SA 2001 were evenly contested. and India even dominated some of those.
    These cover most of the draws since 96 involving India.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  17. #497
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    Cullinan's effort was nothing as this was draw match as well, right?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63738.html


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    please do.

    lemme give you an example I think in 2010 nz toured india and lost the 3 match series 1-0, that time Indian test team was stronger.

    This year nz came and lost 2-0 against a weaker test side or not in form indian team.

    why was this?, simply because both the pitches in 2012 were not flat but 2 out 3 in 2010 were.
    you were talking Overseas and example is in India!
    Stop trying, drawing tests away is not easy.
    Only the Aus tour 2003-04 , pitches were flat. not any others. Only oval in 2002 was flatter.
    Last edited by Lethalweapon; 23rd November 2012 at 19:01.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    look at the scorecard, if both teams could not force a result than the pitch is flat
    This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen on PP.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Cullinan's effort was nothing as this was draw match as well, right?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63738.html
    That test, One full session was washed out despite Cullinan's efforts.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  21. #501
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    Indians have been part of more draws outside Asia than Pakistani or SL players as well in the last 15 odd years.
    This can be confirmed.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  22. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Wrong! That's just outright bogus assumptions. May be batsmen batted better and defied the loss? How do you assume that each side as same kind of skilled bowlers as other side? And how do you assume that all bowlers have skills to take wickets at will!What about the bowlers who have taken the wickets even on a flat wicket and force a win?
    draw 9/10 times pitch was flat.

    india tour of aus 2003/4

    1st test flat = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64059.html

    ganguly cashing in

    4th test flat = draw

    srt, laxman dravid all cashing in

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64062.html

    2008

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    srt and sehwag cashing in.

    england 2002

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63998.html

    sehwag, dravid srt and ganguly all cashing in.

    4th test flat pitch=draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64000.html

    dravid cashing in

    england 2007

    1st test rain ruined result.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258468.html

    3rd test flat pitch = draw


    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258470.html

    various indian batsman cashing in.

    sa 2001

    rained ruined possible result

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63952.html

    sa 2011

    3rd test drawn rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-af...ch/463148.html

    nz 2009

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/386496.html

    gg, dravid and laxman cashing in.

    3rd test flat pitch = draw
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html
    gg cashing in

    wi 2002

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63984.html

    dravid, srt cashing in

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63987.html

    laxman, dravid cashin in

    wi 2006

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239920.html

    jaffer cashing in

    2nd test rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239921.html

    3rd test flat pitch = draw


    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239922.html

    laxman cashing in

    wi 2011

    2nd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489227.html

    3rd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489228.html

    If we were to exclude all these draws except the rain affected matches, the indian batsman's averages would fall that's why I exclude draws in my analysis.

    9/10 too much 8/10 would be right.
    Last edited by panther; 23rd November 2012 at 19:26.

  23. #503
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    I could add more but you get the point

  24. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Cullinan's effort was nothing as this was draw match as well, right?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63738.html
    rain affected match

  25. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    draw 9/10 times pitch was flat.

    india tour of aus 2003/4

    1st test flat = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64059.html

    ganguly cashing in

    4th test flat = draw

    srt, laxman dravid all cashing in

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64062.html

    2008

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    srt and sehwag cashing in.

    england 2002

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63998.html

    sehwag, dravid srt and ganguly all cashing in.

    4th test flat pitch=draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64000.html

    dravid cashing in

    england 2007

    1st test rain ruined result.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258468.html

    3rd test flat pitch = draw


    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258470.html

    various indian batsman cashing in.

    sa 2001

    rained ruined possible result

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63952.html

    sa 2011

    3rd test drawn rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-af...ch/463148.html

    nz 2009

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/386496.html

    gg, dravid and laxman cashing in.

    3rd test flat pitch = draw
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html
    gg cashing in

    wi 2002

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63984.html

    dravid, srt cashing in

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63987.html

    laxman, dravid cashin in

    wi 2006

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239920.html

    jaffer cashing in

    2nd test rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239921.html

    3rd test flat pitch = draw


    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239922.html

    laxman cashing in

    wi 2011

    2nd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489227.html

    3rd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489228.html

    If we were to exclude all these draws except the rain affected matches, the indian batsman's averages would fall that's why I exclude draws in my analysis.

    9/10 too much 8/10 would be right.
    You have included 15 matches out of 50+ tests where many were rain affected. So tell me how does it prove that draw tests are flat pitches?

    And how do you prove that those that are won and lost are NOT flat pitches? It's all assumptions. You just can't take out drawn matches effort as it still would have tested batsmen's ability.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  26. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    rain affected match
    But does it make Cullinan's effort useless as per your point?

    And what about rain affected matches? How do you plan to include them in your stat?


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  27. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    I could add more but you get the point
    No I didn't get the point, as you haven't listed almost 100+ tests result of matches won and lost, and hasn't proved that those were played on tough wickets, you are just assuming! So go on make this list.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  28. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    You have included 15 matches out of 50+ tests where many were rain affected. So tell me how does it prove that draw tests are flat pitches?

    And how do you prove that those that are won and lost are NOT flat pitches? It's all assumptions. You just can't take out drawn matches effort as it still would have tested batsmen's ability.
    I only included drawn matches.

  29. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    But does it make Cullinan's effort useless as per your point?

    And what about rain affected matches? How do you plan to include them in your stat?
    majority of draws are not rain affected but if we wanted to find a certain batsman average with rain affected draws than we just add those runs on to his total runs in won and lost matches and divide by how many extra innings there was.

  30. #510
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    And many matches from your list are showing many one handed innings played in 4th inning. You can see that many batsmen had batted out of their skin to save test match!

    Here are examples.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html

    Does it make Ross Taylor's effort useless?

    What about Sehwag's match saving 150?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    How can you discard this effort by just labeling it .. 'oh they are flat track bullies that's why you can't count them' !!! What does it even mean?


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  31. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    I only included drawn matches.
    That's what I am asking you, how do you prove that those matches that are 'won and lost' played on non-flat pitch? Just because there was result, doesn't make it non-flat pitch!


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  32. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    majority of draws are not rain affected but if we wanted to find a certain batsman average with rain affected draws than we just add those runs on to his total runs in won and lost matches and divide by how many extra innings there was.
    And who is going to do that? Unless you can't do them you can't discard that effort from your initial stat right? Means your initial stat of just 'won and loss' matches isn't the best to judge batsmen's effort.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  33. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    And many matches from your list are showing many one handed innings played in 4th inning. You can see that many batsmen had batted out of their skin to save test match!

    Here are examples.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html

    Does it make Ross Taylor's effort useless?

    What about Sehwag's match saving 150?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    How can you discard this effort by just labeling it .. 'oh they are flat track bullies that's why you can't count them' !!! What does it even mean?
    my mistake that 1st test was rain affected, last test is flat both teams racking up big scores.

  34. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    my mistake that 1st test was rain affected, last test is flat both teams racking up big scores.
    No other batsmen were able to reach even 50 in both tests, other than Ross and Viru, so how can you label that effort useless?


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  35. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    And who is going to do that? Unless you can't do them you can't discard that effort from your initial stat right? Means your initial stat of just 'won and loss' matches isn't the best to judge batsmen's effort.
    It's a good indicator although not 100%.

  36. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    No other batsmen were able to reach even 50 in both tests, other than Ross and Viru, so how can you label that effort useless?
    are you sure?, there was 5 tons in that match

  37. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    It's a good indicator although not 100%.
    It's no where near 100%. it's blind assumptions to discredit batsmen's hard work. As I said before, if test cricket was just about winning and losing then vast majority of test cricket's record would have disappeared. And batsmen aren't the only aspect of the game that decides the outcome, it's depended on 11 player's contributions with bat, ball and field.

    One just can't make assumptions of outcome where there are many factors involved. And this is just for one team that you are doing due to your bias thinking, what about 8 other team members' effort! Who is going to calculate that?

    The best way to analysis is to watch those games again or read reports of the each games and see the conditions of the match, how batsmen have negated certain bowlers in particular condition etc. etc.
    Last edited by cricketworm; 23rd November 2012 at 19:56.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  38. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    are you sure?, there was 5 tons in that match
    Note in the last inning. 8 wickets were fallen in both circumstances. Had pitch condition and match conditions were that easy, those wickets shouldn't have fallen.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  39. #519
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    laxmans average outside the sc excluding minnows and draws is 33.67 if we were to add all the runs on to his current runs where rain affected the match significantly (less than 400 overs bowled in the match), his average would be

    2088 + 918 ( runs in rain affected matches)

    divided by total number of innings 67+ 18 ( rain affected match innings)

    3006/85 = 35.36 so his average only went up 1.69, so laxman is a ftb outside asia.
    Last edited by panther; 23rd November 2012 at 20:30.

  40. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    laxmans average outside the sc excluding minnows and draws is 33.67 if we were to add all the runs on to his current runs where rain affected the match significantly (less than 400 overs bowled in the match), his average would be

    2088 + 918 ( runs in rain affected matches)

    divided by total number of innings 67+ 18 ( rain affected match innings)

    3006/85 = 35.36 so his average only went up 1.69, so laxman is a ftb outside asia.
    So, now you are going away from our discussion as you have no answer.

    How do you prove matches he played in India are flat track, how do you prove that matches he played out side aren't flat track?

    I can list many batsmen who has done well at home and not so good away, Here is M. Clarke http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    who has done nothing much outside of Australia, and many knocks he played in Aus. were on flat tracks, do you see anyone nitpicking that ANALysing this way?


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  41. #521
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    All this non sense aside, fact is only three SC batsmen have 50+ average outside SC and there is very good reasons for it. It's not easy to do so and batsmen who were able to do so are ATG. Match being draw or win or loss is hardly an issue when we are talking about scoring heavily over huge number of matches. That reflects how good batsmen have to be maintain 50+ average outside the SC if batsman learned his cricket in SC.

    Forget about stats, if you have watched cricket you know that it's difficult for SC batsmen to score outside SC heavily and averages just support that observation. Same arguments holds true for English batsmen who have hard time playing on turners. I am laving out players from 30-50 years ago because England used to have turners in England at that time.
    Last edited by Buffet; 23rd November 2012 at 20:47.


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  42. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    So, now you are going away from our discussion as you have no answer.

    How do you prove matches he played in India are flat track, how do you prove that matches he played out side aren't flat track?

    I can list many batsmen who has done well at home and not so good away, Here is M. Clarke http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    who has done nothing much outside of Australia, and many knocks he played in Aus. were on flat tracks, do you see anyone nitpicking that ANALysing this way?
    you originally replied to my post on thease stats.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    so I kept it to outside asia.

    ok clarke

    in asia average excluding minnows and draws is 35.94.

    add runs due to rain affected macthes

    647+ 57( runs in rain affected matches)

    19+ 2 ( innings in rain affected matches)

    704/21= 33.5

    clarke is a ftb but his career is not finished so he can change this.
    Last edited by panther; 23rd November 2012 at 20:52.

  43. #523
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    this guy is quality......solid defense

    India's next Tuk Tuk

  44. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    you originally replied to my post on thease stats.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    so I kept it to outside asia.

    ok clarke

    in asia average excluding minnows and draws is 35.94.

    add runs due to rain affected macthes

    647+ 57( runs in rain affected matches)

    19+ 2 ( innings in rain affected matches)

    704/21= 33.5

    clarke is a ftb but his career is not finished so he can change this.
    There are many FTBs if you nitpick like that, and many players have barely played enough number of tests as much as Gavaskar, SRT, Dravid and Laxman played.

    Anyway, you still have responded to my many queries I have posted above and proved nothing! Means you can't ignore the drawn test result and discard their performances. That is all.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  45. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    There are many FTBs if you nitpick like that, and many players have barely played enough number of tests as much as Gavaskar, SRT, Dravid and Laxman played.

    Anyway, you still have responded to my many queries I have posted above and proved nothing! Means you can't ignore the drawn test result and discard their performances. That is all.
    I have shown you 2 examples vvs and clarke and the difference between there averages in won+ lost games and won+lost games with rain affected draws is only 2-3 runs so my analysis is pretty accurate.

  46. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    I have shown you 2 examples vvs and clarke and the difference between there averages in won+ lost games and won+lost games with rain affected draws is only 2-3 runs so my analysis is pretty accurate.
    You haven't given proper response to any of these!


    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    No I didn't get the point, as you haven't listed almost 100+ tests result of matches won and lost, and hasn't proved that those were played on tough wickets, you are just assuming! So go on make this list.
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    And many matches from your list are showing many one handed innings played in 4th inning. You can see that many batsmen had batted out of their skin to save test match!

    Here are examples.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html

    Does it make Ross Taylor's effort useless?

    What about Sehwag's match saving 150?

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    How can you discard this effort by just labeling it .. 'oh they are flat track bullies that's why you can't count them' !!! What does it even mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    That's what I am asking you, how do you prove that those matches that are 'won and lost' played on non-flat pitch? Just because there was result, doesn't make it non-flat pitch!
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    And who is going to do that? Unless you can't do them you can't discard that effort from your initial stat right? Means your initial stat of just 'won and loss' matches isn't the best to judge batsmen's effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    No other batsmen were able to reach even 50 in both tests, other than Ross and Viru, so how can you label that effort useless?
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Note in the last inning. 8 wickets were fallen in both circumstances. Had pitch condition and match conditions were that easy, those wickets shouldn't have fallen.


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  47. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    draw 9/10 times pitch was flat.

    india tour of aus 2003/4

    1st test flat = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64059.html

    ganguly cashing in
    This was not a flat pitch, India took a 1st innings lead in this test.
    4th test flat = draw

    srt, laxman dravid all cashing in

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64062.html

    2008

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvind/...ch/291354.html

    srt and sehwag cashing in.
    India collapsed on in the 2nd innings , Sehwag's ton saved the match.
    england 2002

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63998.html

    sehwag, dravid srt and ganguly all cashing in.
    India again saved the test here.
    4th test flat pitch=draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64000.html

    dravid cashing in

    england 2007

    1st test rain ruined result.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258468.html

    3rd test flat pitch = draw

    India DOMINATED this test, might have won it but England saved the test.
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/...ch/258470.html

    various indian batsman cashing in.

    sa 2001

    rained ruined possible result

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63952.html

    sa 2011

    3rd test drawn rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-af...ch/463148.html

    nz 2009

    2nd test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/386496.html

    gg, dravid and laxman cashing in.
    India followed on and had to save this match.
    3rd test flat pitch = draw
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/nzvind20...ch/366629.html
    gg cashing in
    This is SHAMEFUL. This is a WASHOUT which India should have won.
    wi 2002

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63984.html

    dravid, srt cashing in

    4th test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63987.html

    laxman, dravid cashin in

    wi 2006

    1st test flat pitch = draw

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239920.html

    jaffer cashing in
    There was one wkt. left for Indian win.
    2nd test rain affected match

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239921.html
    Again India needed one wkt. to win , rain interfered.
    3rd test flat pitch = draw


    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239922.html

    laxman cashing in
    India saved this test.
    wi 2011

    2nd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489227.html

    3rd test affected by rain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-ind...ch/489228.html

    If we were to exclude all these draws except the rain affected matches, the indian batsman's averages would fall that's why I exclude draws in my analysis.

    9/10 too much 8/10 would be right.
    INDIA EITHER SAVED OR DOMINATED (MIGHT HAVE WON) MOST OF THOSE TESTS .
    BARELY 3-4 ARE DULL DRAWS.
    YOUR ANALYSIS IS MASSIVELY FLAWED.

    how many matches have Pakistan drawn after 2000 outside Asia? that number is far lesser than the Indian ones.
    Last edited by Lethalweapon; 23rd November 2012 at 21:54.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  48. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    You haven't given proper response to any of these!
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    No I didn't get the point, as you haven't listed almost 100+ tests result of matches won and lost, and hasn't proved that those were played on tough wickets, you are just assuming! So go on make this list.
    did I say it makes the wicket tough, a pitch which brings about a result can not be flat 9/10.

  49. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    You proved you are biased.
    India dominated half of those tests and could have won those.
    1st test my mistake it was affected by rain.

    how did sehwag save the match? , when aus had not even batted yet for there 2nd innings?

    @India saved the test, doesn't make the wicket any flatter 1398 runs scored for the loss of 28 wickets = 49 runs per batsman.

    @engalnd saved the match, again flat wicket 48 runs per batsman average in that game.

    @ india followed on and saved the match , another flat wicket 60 runs per batsman was the average during this match.

    @ this is shameful, already admitted mistake in above post somewhere.

    @ there was 1 wicket ,left pitch can be considered flat 41 runs per batsman average during this test.

    @ again india needed 1 wicket to win, my mistake

    @ india saved this test, another flat wicket 47 runs per batsman during this match.
    Last edited by panther; 23rd November 2012 at 21:59.

  50. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    1st test my mistake it was affected by rain.

    how did sehwag save the match? , when aus had not even batted yet for there 2nd innings?

    @India saved the test, doesn't make the wicket any flatter 1398 runs scored for the loss of 28 wickets = 49 runs per batsman.

    @engalnd saved the match, again flat wicket 48 runs per batsman average in that game.

    @ india followed on and saved the match , another flat wicket 60 runs per batsman was the average during this match.
    Follow on was on the 3rd day. India had to dig in for 2 whole days.
    @ this is shameful, already admitted mistake in above post somewhere.

    @ there was 1 wicket ,left pitch can be considered flat 41 runs per batsman average during this test.
    Windies took a 130 runs lead, India fought back and nearly won the test..
    @ again india needed 1 wicket to win, my mistake

    @ india saved this test, another flat wicket 47 runs per batsman during this match.
    Without Sehwag, India would have been bowled out for 150 and Aussies would have won it.
    See carefully what the other batsman did in the second innings.. See ADELAIDE'S HISTORY too.

    So you give ZERO importance to the runs a batsman scores saving a test? Very unfair.
    Last edited by Lethalweapon; 23rd November 2012 at 22:09.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  51. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    INDIA EITHER SAVED OR DOMINATED (MIGHT HAVE WON) MOST OF THOSE TESTS .
    BARELY 3-4 ARE DULL DRAWS.
    YOUR ANALYSIS IS MASSIVELY FLAWED.

    how many matches have Pakistan drawn after 2000 outside Asia? that number is far lesser than the Indian ones.
    40 matches, 10 wins, 23 losses and 7 draws.

  52. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    Without Sehwag, India would have been bowled out for 150 and Aussies would have won it.
    See carefully what the other batsman did in the second innings..

    So you give ZERO importance to the runs a batsman scores saving a test? Very unfair.
    there would not be enough overs left for aus to chase down the target lol, and you can not be sure they would have.

  53. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    Without Sehwag, India would have been bowled out for 150 and Aussies would have won it.
    See carefully what the other batsman did in the second innings.. See ADELAIDE'S HISTORY too.

    So you give ZERO importance to the runs a batsman scores saving a test? Very unfair.
    were the runs scored on a flat pitch or not?

    are Indian batsman the biggest ftbs?

  54. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    there would not be enough overs left for aus to chase down the target lol, and you can not be sure they would have.
    The collapse happened in the morning session on day 5.Sehwag played through the post lunch session till tea and hit only one 4. Otherwise, India would have been bowled out after lunch,
    Aus would have batted before tea and would have won it before stumps.
    They were capable of getting even 4 runs per over with Hayden,Symonds and Gilchrist. Got 250 odd vs SA in under 2 sessions in 2006.
    Last edited by Lethalweapon; 23rd November 2012 at 22:30.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  55. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    were the runs scored on a flat pitch or not?

    are Indian batsman the biggest ftbs?
    None of those pitches are close to flat Asian pitches. Oval in Eng and Adelaide provide bounce to tall bowlers and spinners. If a team bats poorly , those pitches don't look flat.
    In that 8-0 those 2 pitches were not flat , isn't it?
    Indians are big ftb's in Asia , not outside Asia.


    defensive captain=loser captain, so loser Dhoni (tests)
    Dravid away avg.in SA,Aus, SL - 34.82.

  56. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethalweapon View Post
    None of those pitches are close to flat Asian pitches. Oval in Eng and Adelaide provide bounce to tall bowlers and spinners. If a team bats poorly , those pitches don't look flat.
    In that 8-0 those 2 pitches were not flat , isn't it?
    Indians are big ftb's in Asia , not outside Asia.
    A big misconception is that people think flat pitches are only prepared in asia.

  57. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    did I say it makes the wicket tough, a pitch which brings about a result can not be flat 9/10.
    Again another out of air presumption 9/10?? Or is it 9.1/10? Or 8.5/10?

    You can't just predict this stuff out of air and discard the batting performance totally. You didn't respond to those two matches I showed where only two batsmen were able to score 100s and rest couldn't even reach 50! What does it tell you about the match situation pitch on that particular time?

    How will you take out the rain affected drawn matches and add that to your initial stat for all the matches?


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  58. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    Again another out of air presumption 9/10?? Or is it 9.1/10? Or 8.5/10?

    You can't just predict this stuff out of air and discard the batting performance totally. You didn't respond to those two matches I showed where only two batsmen were able to score 100s and rest couldn't even reach 50! What does it tell you about the match situation pitch on that particular time?

    How will you take out the rain affected drawn matches and add that to your initial stat for all the matches?
    I admitted the ross taylor 100 I made a mistake, the match was affected by rain.

    but the sehwag ton was on a flat track 50 runs was the average per wicket in that test.

    regarding the last bit check post 519

  59. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    I admitted the ross taylor 100 I made a mistake, the match was affected by rain.

    but the sehwag ton was on a flat track 50 runs was the average per wicket in that test.

    regarding the last bit check post 519
    In last inning no other batsmen were able to score 50 and 8 wickets were fallen and one guy has scored 150+ How can you prove the pitch was flat at the time when he made those runs?

    How did you get the Laxman's runs in rain affected matches?

    What about other 100+ cricketers? Who is going to do analysis for them?

    What about Sunil Gavaskar's test at Georgetown? How can you discard that batting performance when you compare his performances with other batsmen?

    I can list many many matches like that for each players! So, that doesn't prove that pitch was flat! What about Cullinan's performance? How can you discard that 100?

    If you start considering for each batsmen their average will get massive boost! Means you can't discard those performances. And your analysis is flawed!


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  60. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    In last inning no other batsmen were able to score 50 and 8 wickets were fallen and one guy has scored 150+ How can you prove the pitch was flat at the time when he made those runs?

    How did you get the Laxman's runs in rain affected matches?

    What about other 100+ cricketers? Who is going to do analysis for them?

    What about Sunil Gavaskar's test at Georgetown? How can you discard that batting performance when you compare his performances with other batsmen?

    I can list many many matches like that for each players! So, that doesn't prove that pitch was flat! What about Cullinan's performance? How can you discard that 100?

    If you start considering for each batsmen their average will get massive boost! Means you can't discard those performances. And your analysis is flawed!
    Got stats from cricinfo, filtered for all draws you can do it yourself but it's pretty long.

    cullinans performance will not be discarded because it was a rain affected match.

  61. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    Got stats from cricinfo, filtered for all draws you can do it yourself but it's pretty long.

    cullinans performance will not be discarded because it was a rain affected match.
    So, how do you plan to add rain affected matches for each batsmen? That means you have to add all drawn and tied test matches as well.


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  62. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    So, how do you plan to add rain affected matches for each batsmen? That means you have to add all drawn and tied test matches as well.
    Have to do 1 batsman at a time.

    For laxman I filtered it to all draws outside asia.

    Than checked scorecard for each match cheeked his scores and innings, also whether the match was affected by rain significantly, than add it all up( runs and innings)

    add on to total runs( in rain affected draws) to runs in won and lost matches outside asia.

    same for innings.

    than divide( runs/innings) and you get your answer.

  63. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    Have to do 1 batsman at a time.

    For laxman I filtered it to all draws outside asia.

    Than checked scorecard for each match cheeked his scores and innings, also whether the match was affected by rain significantly, than add it all up( runs and innings)

    add on to total runs( in rain affected draws) to runs in won and lost matches outside asia.

    same for innings.

    than divide( runs/innings) and you get your answer.
    So, you don't have your answer for other batsmen, that makes your analysis useless. You can't say since Laxman stat work it will work for other batsmen as well.

    And that doesn't change the fact of lots of other assumptions you are making such as that just because it's draw you can't discard that batting performances, you have no data of how was the pitch? neither you have data for how was the pitch for 'win or lose' matches, you are just assuming.

    Analysis is based on assumptions without any fact, ergo your analysis is massively flawed!


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  64. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    So, you don't have your answer for other batsmen, that makes your analysis useless. You can't say since Laxman stat work it will work for other batsmen as well.

    And that doesn't change the fact of lots of other assumptions you are making such as that just because it's draw you can't discard that batting performances, you have no data of how was the pitch? neither you have data for how was the pitch for 'win or lose' matches, you are just assuming.

    Analysis is based on assumptions without any fact, ergo your analysis is massively flawed!
    I will do the same for other Indian batsman probably over the weekend.

    goodnight.

  65. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    I will do the same for other Indian batsman probably over the weekend.

    goodnight.
    You just can't possibly have data for all the pitch types! It's just impossible! You are not trying to accept the fact that you can't dismiss players performances just because it was a draw test, that's just absurd.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  66. #546
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    How can you discard Laxman's inning he played when no other batsmen even reached 50 in first inning! India would have lost that test if it wasn't for him!

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239922.html

    There are many many examples like that in test, for each batsmen! You can't just wipe off this performances and call it useless it was on a flat track!! That's just absurd.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  67. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    How can you discard Laxman's inning he played when no other batsmen even reached 50 in first inning! India would have lost that test if it wasn't for him!

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/e...ch/239922.html

    There are many many examples like that in test, for each batsmen! You can't just wipe off this performances and call it useless it was on a flat track!! That's just absurd.
    That innings was not discarded in my analysis.

  68. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by panther View Post
    That innings was not discarded in my analysis.
    I took random match from your selection of your long lists, where you said these innings were played on flat pitches! But does that make that inning less important for team's sack?

    I can give many matches like that for each batsmen where you missed them out since you are labeling them draw aka useless inning.

    And one can't possibly go by each and every single matches for all the players! All you are doing assuming.


    3WCs, #1 Test #1 ODI team, Fab 9: Sachin, Dravid, Saurav, Kumble, VVS, Viru, Zak, MSD, Yuvi

  69. #549
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    Out for the first time in the series. That's 382 runs between dismissals. He has batted for 16 hours and 55 minutes, I am being told

    Pujara

  70. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Out for the first time in the series. That's 382 runs between dismissals. He has batted for 16 hours and 55 minutes, I am being told

    Pujara
    Some other instances when batsmen batted for more than 1000 mins

    Longest cumulative time between two dismissals in Test cricket [1000 minutes or more] [6]

    • The world record of batting for the longest cumulative time between dismissals is held by West Indian Shivnarine Chanderpaul, who remained at the crease for 25 hours and 13 minutes [1513 minutes] and scored 362 runs in four innings. [see Table above].
    • South Africa's Jacques Kallis, remained at the crease for 1246 minutes and scored 456 runs in four innings. [see Table above]. Kallis sequence of scores and the time taken by him at the crease in the four consecutive innings respectively is: 157* [381 min] & 42* [65 min] at Harare; 189* [581 min] at Bulawayo and now 68 [219 min] at Bloemfontein.
    • Sachin Tendulkar took 1224 minutes for his 497 runs [see Table above]. His sequence of scores and the time taken by him at the crease in the four consecutive innings respectively is: 241* & 60 [in 613 min & 108 min respectively], 194 [in 493 min] and 2 [in 10 min].
    • Former England captain Nasser Hussain also remained at the crease for 1022 minutes and scored 231 runs. He had scores of 70* [in 302 min at Port Elizabeth, Dec 1999]; 146* [in 635 min at Durban, Dec 1999] and 15 [in 85 min at Cape Town, January 2000] all against South Africa before being dismissed.
    • Rahul Dravid also has 473 runs in 1161 minutes [see Table above] His sequence of scores and the time taken by him at the crease in the four consecutive innings respectively is: 41* [in 50 min], 200* & 70* [in 551 min 152 min respectively], 162 [in 408 min]
    • Shoaib Mohammad also had 308 runs in 1007 minutes; 203* [in 656 min vs New Zealand at Karachi in 1990-91], 105 [in 351 min vs New Zealand at Lahore in 1990-91].
    Last edited by AlizeeFan; 24th November 2012 at 04:47.



  71. #551
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    Best batsman in world currently after Clarke...

  72. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by musaarthali View Post
    Best batsman in world currently after Clarke...
    Malakindian

  73. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketworm View Post
    I took random match from your selection of your long lists, where you said these innings were played on flat pitches! But does that make that inning less important for team's sack?

    I can give many matches like that for each batsmen where you missed them out since you are labeling them draw aka useless inning.

    And one can't possibly go by each and every single matches for all the players! All you are doing assuming.
    It was rain affected I included it in my analysis.

  74. #554
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    What a solid batsman this guy is turning out to be. The next Dravid?

  75. #555
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    4th test hundred for Pujara.

  76. #556
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    If Cheteshwar Pujara Continues To Play As Good As This And Long As Sachin Tendulkar He Will Break If Not All Then Most Of Sachin Tendulkar's Records

    Another God In The Making Start Worshiping

  77. #557
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    Well played Chintu.

    The real test coming up in the 4 away series in next 2 years.

  78. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by khan1992 View Post
    If Cheteshwar Pujara Continues To Play As Good As This And Long As Sachin Tendulkar He Will Break If Not All Then Most Of Sachin Tendulkar's Records

    Another God In The Making Start Worshiping


    Ah! these new born cricket watchers

  79. #559
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    he is amazing at home doubt, but beforre crowning him the next Sachin, lets see what he does abroad.


    If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?
    Vince Lombardi

  80. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by musaarthali View Post
    Best batsman in world currently after Clarke...
    Best Batsman in "India" at the moment. His tour abroad was pretty horrible.


    If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?
    Vince Lombardi


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