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View Poll Results: Should Malik be in the plans for the 2019 WC?

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  • Yes

    189 44.89%
  • No

    212 50.36%
  • Unsure

    20 4.75%
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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Comparison with colleagues is important, we need to set bar somewhere and have some perspective of success.

    Like openers, I compared with all the "Pakistani" openers and he avg above all except two. Had I compared with all the openers in world even Saeed Anwar wont get place in top ten.

    Re: Newbies, well in SL series, he was the highest scorer in that series even big fish like MY and YK were there. So if thats the bet, don't you think you already lost?
    urmm you want to compare his batting with whats included in our test match line-up? So what you're saying is that if the others average 25 and Malik averages 30 then he deserves to be classed as a top testclass batsman?

    Since you had claimed that Malik could end up with a 50 average since both Malik and YK had a similar average after 27 or 28 test matches, then surely anything below an average of 60 for this series would be classed as a failure? Afterall he would have to average 60 for the balance of his career to end up with an overall average of 50???

    I'm prepared to set the bar lower, how about an average of 45 for this tour?

    I'd like to just remind you that this is to see whether Malik is a top test match batsman not the best of a bad bunch!
    Last edited by IMMY69; 25th June 2010 at 17:28.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    This is also a Myth (like he can not play new ball).
    I'll tackle this when I am back from job.
    I guess your going to point to fact hes opened in Test against England, West indies on pretty flat wickets?

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    I guess your going to point to fact hes opened in Test against England, West indies

    That I already did at #388
    You are a living legend, I expect you to know that there is little difference between past and future.

    If you feel that those tests against WI/Eng were @ flat tracks, let me exclude those tests and his averages shoot from 42.60 to 79.60

    Have fun.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    That I already did at #388
    You are a living legend, I expect you to know that there is little difference between past and future.

    If you feel that those tests against WI/Eng were @ flat tracks, let me exclude those tests and his averages shoot from 42.60 to 79.60

    Have fun.
    Opening in a handful of tests is no gage of a batsmens true quality in longterm but it can highlight technical short comings and poor technic.

    In england series Malik continually got out to playing shots in the air front of the wicket due to continually being over balanced at the crease. He got starts in each game on wickets not offering much yet manage to throw his wicket away.

    In west indies he looked like a cat on a hot tin roof they way he tried to combat the short ball.

    Comparing him to the Likes of Hanif, Anwar etc... who excelled as openers over 30+ tests atleast in that postion is laughable.

    Hes not even in the same league as such players.

    Have a look at Kiwis series and Sri lanka series and see how he got knocked over against moving ball when well set in some matches when playing in middle order. Top class players shouldnt have that problem!

  5. #405
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    Just to clarify - Anwaar is alone on the 'top-class' Test batsman theory.

    I think Malik is/will be a good Test batsman. By good, I mean he'll average more than 40 in Test cricket with consummate ease.

  6. #406
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    To counter the allegations that tracks were so flat.
    So here is the comparison among 4 openers who played on same playing conditions:

    On Random: Each opener has a chance of 25% to come 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th position in comparison.

    Lets see how SM fare in this criteria:


    Malik
    1st 2nd total
    13 64 77
    39 18 57
    27 26 53
    13 148 161

    2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    14 26 40
    74 122 196
    26 50 76
    69 34 103

    Opposition 1st Opener
    1st 2nd total
    33 15 48
    193 5 198
    48 0 48
    0 72 72

    Opposition 2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    25 49 74
    9 23 32
    12 0 12
    6 13 19


    Malik's position
    1st
    3rd
    2nd
    1st

    SM stood first in 50%, hence the allegations proved to be nothing just #$%%.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    Just to clarify - Anwaar is alone on the 'top-class' Test batsman theory.

    I think Malik is/will be a good Test batsman. By good, I mean he'll average more than 40 in Test cricket with consummate ease.
    Averaging "40" with ease? Hmmm! Not if he continues to make 20/30s and keeps throwing his wicket away. He might if he keeps scoring runs when wicket has flattened out against Oppostion like Sri Lanka!

    Hes a poor/average batsmen who is very limited in my eyes!

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Averaging "40" with ease? Hmmm! Not if he continues to make 20/30s and keeps throwing his wicket away. He might if he keeps scoring runs when wicket has flattened out against Oppostion like Sri Lanka!
    If he keeps doing it when we're 67/4, I wouldn't complain.

    Fact: he hasn't played any significant number of Test matches outside the subcontinent. Predictive reasoning won't really do for me - we should just wait and see how he does, because he'll be playing in all 6 Tests this summer.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    Just to clarify - Anwaar is alone on the 'top-class' Test batsman theory.

    I think Malik is/will be a good Test batsman. By good, I mean he'll average more than 40 in Test cricket with consummate ease.
    I do not know if he would hit a purple patch or just go to drain. But I tend to agree with you that he has potential to average about 44 (but thats just a hunch, got nothing to back this)

    Regarding Top class criteria, yes I am alone at other side of table.

    By defination: Class is a "division based on quality"
    and it can't be deducted alone by averages and peak performances.

    Its more related to (kind of, in business terms) QoS and SLAs or better with ISO 9000 series criteria.
    Last edited by Black Zero; 26th June 2010 at 05:15.

  10. #410
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    Maliks career stats are pretty much inflated because of good performances against Sri Lanka because he plays spin well. Yet when it comes to playing pace, swing he cant bat for toffee!

    Take out his stats against Sri Lanka and his career would have very poor reading!

    20 Tests 33 Inns 3 N.o 800 Runs @ 26.66 - 5 (50)

    Am sorry but thats a pathetic looking record to say the least!

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    To counter the allegations that tracks were so flat.
    So here is the comparison among 4 openers who played on same playing conditions:

    On Random: Each opener has a chance of 25% to come 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th position in comparison.

    Lets see how SM fare in this criteria:


    Malik
    1st 2nd total
    13 64 77
    39 18 57
    27 26 53
    13 148 161

    2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    14 26 40
    74 122 196
    26 50 76
    69 34 103

    Opposition 1st Opener
    1st 2nd total
    33 15 48
    193 5 198
    48 0 48
    0 72 72

    Opposition 2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    25 49 74
    9 23 32
    12 0 12
    6 13 19


    Malik's position
    1st
    3rd
    2nd
    1st

    SM stood first in 50%, hence the allegations proved to be nothing just #$%%.
    Rather then clarify what other openers did why didnt you just judge Malik as a player on his own?

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    If he keeps doing it when we're 67/4, I wouldn't complain.

    Fact: he hasn't played any significant number of Test matches outside the subcontinent. Predictive reasoning won't really do for me - we should just wait and see how he does, because he'll be playing in all 6 Tests this summer.
    Indeed hes not played many tests outside of Asia. However, pretty much his only real consistant performances have come against one team. (Sri Lanka)

    He flopped in New zealand and Australia and only reason hes been picked is because YK and MY have been dropped. If Maliks seen as one of Pakistans best test batting options right now then god help us all.

    I would consider Afridi a good test batsmen and some one miles better then Malik!

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Opening in a handful of tests is no gage of a batsmens true quality in longterm but it can highlight technical short comings and poor technic.
    Thats not my claim in this data set that he is quality batsmen (thats not my point). I said that He Averages higher that ALL PAKISTANI OPENERS except Saeed and Tasleem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    In england series Malik continually got out to playing shots in the air front of the wicket due to continually being over balanced at the crease. He got starts in each game on wickets not offering much yet manage to throw his wicket away.
    You saying that bad field placing is the main reason for his high average as an opener?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    In west indies he looked like a cat on a hot tin roof they way he tried to combat the short ball.
    More look like that you have nothing to contribute in this discussion so you took refuge in personal attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Comparing him to the Likes of Hanif, Anwar etc... who excelled as openers over 30+ tests atleast in that postion is laughable.
    Well I already compared him with Hanif, Sadiq and all other openers. My aim was not to be little them but to show how Malik fare among them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Hes not even in the same league as such players.
    and he should not be, as he averages higher than them

    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Have a look at Kiwis series and Sri lanka series and see how he got knocked over against moving ball when well set in some matches when playing in middle order. Top class players shouldnt have that problem!
    Coincidently, he was the highest scorer in SL series from Pakistan.

    Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
    KC Sangakkara (SL) 3 6 1 331 130* 66.20 613 53.99 1 1 0 28 1
    Shoaib Malik (Pak) 3 6 1 262 134 52.40 478 54.81 1 0 1 29 3
    Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 3 6 0 253 112 42.16 430 58.83 1 1 0 23 1
    NT Paranavitana (SL) 3 6 0 242 73 40.33 430 56.27 0 2 0 25 0

    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...67;type=series

  14. #414
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    He flopped in Australia? You must have been watching a different series.

    Made 58 and 19 in his only Test match. Didn't set the world alight, but did a good job - showed guts and decent technique. Mind you, this was against Bollinger, Siddle, and Johson.

  15. #415
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    Will have to wait and watch what Malik does to be honest

    Now that theres no Younis and Yousuf in the squad, and Malik's in the squad, no point dropping him.

    Ideally he shouldn't have been there, but now that he is, might as well give him the games and yet another chance to prove himself

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Rather then clarify what other openers did why didnt you just judge Malik as a player on his own?
    Wasn't you accused him of scoring good at FT, then comparing all 4 openers is the fairest comparison. Level playing field.

    Javed, show some moral courage and go to some other thread.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by *sallu*
    Will have to wait and watch what Malik does to be honest

    Now that theres no Younis and Yousuf in the squad, and Malik's in the squad, no point dropping him.

    Ideally he shouldn't have been there, but now that he is, might as well give him the games and yet another chance to prove himself

    This is unfair cause you guys have different yard sticks for judging SM, why not use same for all Pakistani batsmen #1 to #7 and pick on merit?

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    Just to clarify - Anwaar is alone on the 'top-class' Test batsman theory.

    I think Malik is/will be a good Test batsman. By good, I mean he'll average more than 40 in Test cricket with consummate ease.
    In 32 out of the 48 Inns Malik has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 40 runs! (67%)

    In 28 out of the 48 Inns Malik Has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 30 runs! (58%)

    You telling me those are stats/Figures of a good test batsmen?

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    This is unfair cause you guys have different yard sticks for judging SM, why not use same for all Pakistani batsmen #1 to #7 and pick on merit?
    I have repeatedly been saying I don't care about his performances

    I will not look beyond his ridiculous behavior and disciplinary issues, because frankly, I wouldn't select him if there was 1 cricket playing guy left in Pakistan

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar



    Coincidently, he was the highest scorer in SL series from Pakistan.

    Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
    KC Sangakkara (SL) 3 6 1 331 130* 66.20 613 53.99 1 1 0 28 1
    Shoaib Malik (Pak) 3 6 1 262 134 52.40 478 54.81 1 0 1 29 3
    Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 3 6 0 253 112 42.16 430 58.83 1 1 0 23 1
    NT Paranavitana (SL) 3 6 0 242 73 40.33 430 56.27 0 2 0 25 0

    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...67;type=series
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?

    Lets get some perspective here. As ive already pointed out Malik only performs against Sri Lanka. Have you checked his record with out sri lanka stats?

    Also a batsmen can fail 4/5 times in a series and then score a big double, triple hundred and it makes his average and stats look good.

    Example in 2004 - Brian lara scored 500 runs in 7 inns against England at home! 400 of those runs came in one inns! Once series was lost and game was played on a dead wicket. Does that mean Lara had a brilliant series with bat and was one of best batsmen in that series?

    Just throwing random stats with out looking into real contribution of a player in series is a bit meaningless!

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    This is unfair cause you guys have different yard sticks for judging SM, why not use same for all Pakistani batsmen #1 to #7 and pick on merit?
    So there we have it...

    You know you're on to a loser so forget all your previous arguments about Malik being a top test match batsman and instead lets be happy that he's the best of an extremely bad bunch!!!!

    So going by your logic, yuou'd be happy wiht Malik's performance as long as he does better then the rest, which means he could end up averaging 25 on this tour and you'd be happy...

    Anwaar, I thought lets bury the hadget and see how Malik does does in this tour and whether he really can be a top test match batsman, instead you keep changing the goal posts...

    I hope everyone can see you for what you are...A stuborn small minded numpty not disimilar to a certain head of the PCB...

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?

    Lets get some perspective here. As ive already pointed out Malik only performs against Sri Lanka. Have you checked his record with out sri lanka stats?

    Also a batsmen can fail 4/5 times in a series and then score a big double, triple hundred and it makes his average and stats look good.

    Example in 2004 - Brian lara scored 500 runs in 7 inns against England at home! 400 of those runs came in one inns! Once series was lost and game was played on a dead wicket. Does that mean Lara had a brilliant series with bat and was one of best batsmen in that series?

    Just throwing random stats with out looking into real contribution of a player in series is a bit meaningless!
    Aj, uo and I have had some decent arguments in the past, probably over a couple of years ago now...But atleast they were logical and based on proper cricketing values...With these guys, its like banging your head on a brick wall...

  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69

    Since you had claimed that Malik could end up with a 50 average
    Show me me please where I predicted that he would hit 50? I hate to predict as its against rational thinking, but upon some poster's insistence I said that at the end of 59th test SM has a potential to hit average of around 45.

    RE: 50, Thats your our own deduction. What I meant with that comparison that up to 29th test YK had same average so If YK was eligible to be in test squad then why not Malik.

    I have mentioned so many times earlier that I am not fan of either SM or YK but I support SM and want to clear some misconception.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?
    I have seen you and other mentioned this point so many times.

    Wrong The Series was defeated but was not Over!

    Any sane would prefer 2-1, 2-0 over white wash of 3-0.

    Series are different from Tournaments (In tournament, when both teams are out or already qualified to next round then that match is a dead rubber, but thats not a case in series, where every match has a significance.

    Here is article from Cricinfo on Malik's century:


    Malik century puts Pakistan on top
    At 67 for 4, with both Younis Khan and Mohammad Yousuf back in the pavilion, Pakistan were in danger of subsiding to another defeat,

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69
    So there we have it...

    You know you're on to a loser so forget all your previous arguments about Malik being a top test match batsman and instead lets be happy that he's the best of an extremely bad bunch!!!!

    So going by your logic, yuou'd be happy wiht Malik's performance as long as he does better then the rest, which means he could end up averaging 25 on this tour and you'd be happy...

    Anwaar, I thought lets bury the hadget and see how Malik does does in this tour and whether he really can be a top test match batsman, instead you keep changing the goal posts...

    I hope everyone can see you for what you are...A stuborn small minded numpty not disimilar to a certain head of the PCB...
    Sorry, whats your point here?
    I am not happy even if Malik make 100 or sad if he makes zero.
    I do not care if he is class or crap.

    My point is simple and plain that allegation against him that he can not play new ball has no foundation. Stats can not be more clear.
    What is stopping you to accept this? Maybe the hatred you grew passionately for Malik over years?

    Accept and truth will set you free.

  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?

    Just throwing random stats with out looking into real contribution of a player in series is a bit meaningless!
    AJ, it's very unfair (in fact dishonesty) to exclude some's 100. But I will do it for you. Ok?

    Here are other tests:

    38,0
    39* (Pakistan was out at 90) made 43% of Pakistan's score alone. and 6 in next inngs.

    Edited: He averages ~27 where par avg for Pakistan was 31 (add all 4 innings scores divide by 4 and then divide result by 7 players)

    Any other excuse?
    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 05:29.

  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by *sallu*
    I have repeatedly been saying I don't care about his performances
    Thats very true, SM bashers do not care about performances.
    and then why would they!
    Last edited by Black Zero; 26th June 2010 at 05:12.

  28. #428
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    Wrong The Series was defeated but was not Over!

    Any sane would prefer 2-1, 2-0 over white wash of 3-0.

    Series are different from Tournaments (In tournament, when both teams are out or already qualified to next round then that match is a dead rubber, but thats not a case in series, where every match has a significance.
    Straws. Clutching. Clutching Straws.


    No one likes me cause I am a Paul Heyman guy.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    Straws. Clutching. Clutching Straws.
    Ignored!

  30. #430
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    Highest Averaged player of 4th Innings in the World

    3rd best player of 4th innings in the world


    After discussing Malik's career path and his performance against new ball.

    It's ripe time to bring some of Malik's hidden qualities to fore.

    When compared 4th innings average of all the players ever played tests (at least 10 4th innings), Malik is 3rd highest in the world.

    obviously he is the highest 4th innings averaged player for Pakistan.

    s
    Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0
    B Mitchell (SA) 1929-1949 12 12 5 629 189* 89.85 1 4 0
    JB Stollmeyer (WI) 1939-1953 10 10 4 518 104* 86.33 2 3 0
    Shoaib Malik (Pak) 2003-2010 12 10 5 392 148* 78.40 1 2 1
    PJP Burge (Aus) 1955-1964 15 10 6 306 53 76.50 0 2 0
    DG Bradman (Aus) 1928-1948 18 15 5 734 173* 73.40 3 4 3


    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...s;type=batting

    Another reason to support Malik!

  31. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    In 32 out of the 48 Inns Malik has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 40 runs! (67%)

    In 28 out of the 48 Inns Malik Has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 30 runs! (58%)
    For 40: You miscalculated, its not 67% but 58% (You failed to note not out innings, as expected). FYI, YK failed to cross 40, 55%
    For 30: its 52% and not 58%


    Let me lower the bar and drop it to 25 runs and see where YK stands.
    45% of times YK failed to cross 25 runs. A shocking 50 times out of 112.
    SM got similar %age.

    You are not legend anymore
    Last edited by Black Zero; 26th June 2010 at 05:36.

  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69
    Aj, uo and I have had some decent arguments in the past, probably over a couple of years ago now...But atleast they were logical and based on proper cricketing values...With these guys, its like banging your head on a brick wall...
    I get same feeling! Its head banging and just going round in circles.

    Atleast with logic you can see someones point of view even if u dont agree with it.

  33. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Thats very true, SM bashers do not care about performances.
    and then why would they!
    Yes, convenient enough for you not to quote the rest of my post

    Why would I not care about his performance?
    Because hes been a back stabbing politician who has been proven guilty of being one of the main initiators of the infighting going on within the team

    If Don Bradman did that, I wouldn't have him in my team, let alone Malik

  34. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by *sallu*
    If Don Bradman did that, I wouldn't have him in my team, let alone Malik
    If you truly mean that, you are very naive and obviously haven't been following Pakistani cricket for any significant period of time.

  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    If you truly mean that, you are very naive and obviously haven't been following Pakistani cricket for any significant period of time.
    This. Well said Easa.. it's been happening for a long time with almost everybody in our cricket setup, it will keep happening.

  36. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easa
    If you truly mean that, you are very naive and obviously haven't been following Pakistani cricket for any significant period of time.
    I'm pretty sure we've had some very very bad cricketing personalities, but few have been of Malik's calibre

  37. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    I get same feeling! Its head banging and just going round in circles.

    Atleast with logic you can see someones point of view even if u dont agree with it.

    Aren't you supposed to say Sorry for doing miscalculation??
    Aren't you supposed to say Thank you for me addressing your concerns point-wise?? (I can paste the history, if you can't scroll up)

    Honestly, you are not even worthy to type the word "logic" and after you lost the argument fair and square, you started bashing.


    Why do not you follow sallu's suit and keep bashing SM on simply "non-performance" issues.

    Do not be a sour loser. I already advised you to "Run"!

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by *sallu*
    Yes, convenient enough for you not to quote the rest of my post

    Why would I not care about his performance?
    Because hes been a back stabbing politician who has been proven guilty of being one of the main initiators of the infighting going on within the team

    If Don Bradman did that, I wouldn't have him in my team, let alone Malik
    Accusing SM for creating grouping is "beaten to death" topic and had been discussed in gazillion threads, including this thread. We know about the allegations against him and others and you know our stand on it.

    If you want to discuss that again (gazzilion +1), you can bump a thread from past and discuss there.

    By the way, good to know that you have no issue with his performance.

  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Aren't you supposed to say Sorry for doing miscalculation??
    Aren't you supposed to say Thank you for me addressing your concerns point-wise?? (I can paste the history, if you can't scroll up)

    Honestly, you are not even worthy to type the word "logic" and after you lost the argument fair and square, you started bashing.


    Why do not you follow sallu's suit and keep bashing SM on simply "non-performance" issues.

    Do not be a sour loser. I already advised you to "Run"!
    Lost the arguement? why did someone declare you the winner and give u a gold medal?

    Sore loser?

    You really are clutching at straws. When you can discussion something meaningful and logical with some decent evidence to back it up i might take notice.


  40. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Sore loser?
    Yes, you are.
    Cause

    Still I do not see "Sorry" from you.


    Chao
    Bye
    tc


  41. #441
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    Malik lef Pakistan during their most difficult time, after 2007 World Cup,with a team that would be losing all its players to the ICL, when Younus got a typical tantrum and quit. But that won't be mentioned will it?

  42. #442
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    I guess your going to point to fact hes opened in Test against England, West indies



    That I already did at #388
    You are a living legend, I expect you to know that there is little difference between past and future.

    If you feel that those tests against WI/Eng were @ flat tracks, let me exclude those tests and his averages shoot from 42.60 to 79.60

    Have fun.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    To counter the allegations that tracks were so flat.
    So here is the comparison among 4 openers who played on same playing conditions:

    On Random: Each opener has a chance of 25% to come 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th position in comparison.

    Lets see how SM fare in this criteria:


    Malik
    1st 2nd total
    13 64 77
    39 18 57
    27 26 53
    13 148 161

    2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    14 26 40
    74 122 196
    26 50 76
    69 34 103

    Opposition 1st Opener
    1st 2nd total
    33 15 48
    193 5 198
    48 0 48
    0 72 72

    Opposition 2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    25 49 74
    9 23 32
    12 0 12
    6 13 19


    Malik's position
    1st
    3rd
    2nd
    1st

    SM stood first in 50%, hence the allegations proved to be nothing just #$%%.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Have a look at Kiwis series and Sri lanka series and see how he got knocked over against moving ball when well set in some matches when playing in middle order. Top class players shouldnt have that problem!


    Coincidently, he was the highest scorer in SL series from Pakistan.

    Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
    KC Sangakkara (SL) 3 6 1 331 130* 66.20 613 53.99 1 1 0 28 1
    Shoaib Malik (Pak) 3 6 1 262 134 52.40 478 54.81 1 0 1 29 3
    Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 3 6 0 253 112 42.16 430 58.83 1 1 0 23 1
    NT Paranavitana (SL) 3 6 0 242 73 40.33 430 56.27 0 2 0 25 0



    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?



    I have seen you and other mentioned this point so many times.

    Wrong The Series was defeated but was not Over!

    Any sane would prefer 2-1, 2-0 over white wash of 3-0.

    Series are different from Tournaments (In tournament, when both teams are out or already qualified to next round then that match is a dead rubber, but thats not a case in series, where every match has a significance.

    Here is article from Cricinfo on Malik's century:


    Malik century puts Pakistan on top
    At 67 for 4, with both Younis Khan and Mohammad Yousuf back in the pavilion, Pakistan were in danger of subsiding to another defeat,


    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?

    Just throwing random stats with out looking into real contribution of a player in series is a bit meaningless!


    AJ, it's very unfair (in fact dishonesty) to exclude some's 100. But I will do it for you. Ok?

    Here are other tests:

    38,0
    39* (Pakistan was out at 90) made 43% of Pakistan's score alone. and 6 in next inngs.

    Edited: He averages ~27 where par avg for Pakistan was 31 (add all 4 innings scores divide by 4 and then divide result by 7 players)

    Any other excuse?


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    In 32 out of the 48 Inns Malik has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 40 runs! (67%)

    In 28 out of the 48 Inns Malik Has played in test cricket hes failed to get past 30 runs! (58%)



    For 40: You miscalculated, its not 67% but 58% (You failed to note not out innings, as expected). FYI, YK failed to cross 40, 55%
    For 30: its 52% and not 58%


    Let me lower the bar and drop it to 25 runs and see where YK stands.
    45% of times YK failed to cross 25 runs. A shocking 50 times out of 112.
    SM got similar %age.
    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 05:30.

  43. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over.
    Younus' 309 inflated his average by 1.67 runs.

  44. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBowler
    Younus' 309 inflated his average by 1.67 runs.
    Well I know his "logical" reply, and would be like below:

    "It's common knowledge that when player's middle name starts with Y, then inflation rule nullified"
    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 01:12.

  45. #445
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    ^

    Anwaar

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Well I know his "logical" reply, and would be like below:

    "It's common knowledge that when player's middle name starts with Y, then inflation rule nullified"


  47. #447
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    As disturbance is cleared, let me re quote.

    Scoring big in 4th inning of the match is a great test for a test batsman's character.

    So many greats failed to pass this test, for various reasons (un even bounce, double/triple speed pitch, condition of pitch, more turn, fatigue and pressure).

    Only the physically strongest and mentally toughest are able to perform well consistently in 4th innings.

    Here are some stats for 4th innings:

    Shoaib Malik is 3rd best player of 4th innings in the world


    When compared 4th innings average of all the players ever played tests (at least 10 4th innings), Malik is 3rd highest in the world.

    obviously he is the highest 4th innings averaged player for Pakistan.


    Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0
    B Mitchell (SA) 1929-1949 12 12 5 629 189* 89.85 1 4 0
    JB Stollmeyer (WI) 1939-1953 10 10 4 518 104* 86.33 2 3 0
    Shoaib Malik (Pak) 2003-2010 12 10 5 392 148* 78.40 1 2 1
    PJP Burge (Aus) 1955-1964 15 10 6 306 53 76.50 0 2 0
    DG Bradman (Aus) 1928-1948 18 15 5 734 173* 73.40 3 4 3

    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...s;type=batting
    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 01:47.

  48. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBowler
    Younus' 309 inflated his average by 1.67 runs.
    Younis has proved himself a world class test batsmen.SOmething Malik hasnt!

  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Younis has proved himself a world class test batsmen.SOmething Malik hasnt!

    Look over the stats Anwaar has provided.

  50. #450
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    Not to interject your discussions, there are some things Anwaar et al need to note.

    1. Fourth inning being a 'heroic inning' is an excuse. If you didn't score in first three innings, you put pressure on the team in the fourth. It's only fair you make up for it then.

    2. 5 not outs in 10 4th innings. That's 50%. What's more, he crossed the 100 mark only once in those 12 innings, and 50 mark only twice. There's a reason why there are no other high-average contemporary batsmen in the top 5 of this list - as you can see all these notouts against the number of innings.
    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...und;view=match

    3. His highest score during the 4th inning - i.e. 148 not out - didn't even win us the match. Ended in a tame draw with us still having 6 wickets in hand. Maybe he helped out in eking out the draw, but quite a contrast from '4th inning heroics'. Esp. on a pitch that flattened out in the match.
    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/238216.html

    4. His second highest score in the 4th inning - i.e. 59 - still lost us the match.
    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64105.html

    5. His third highest score in the 4th inning - i.e. 53 not out - won us the match when the target was a paltry 137.
    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64106.html

    6. All these three scores were registered against Sri Lanka in the subcontinent.

    7. His 4th highest score in the 4th inning still lost us the match.
    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/423778.html

    8. His 5th highest score in the 4th inning still lost us the match.
    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/299004.html

    9. In fact, in the 10 matches that he batted in the 4th inning, our W-L-D record is 2-5-3. Our overall W-L-D record while playing Shoaib Malik is 10-9-10. So, clearly, when he bats in the 4th inning, we are much more likely to LOSE.
    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...ults;type=team

    10. All your stats above lead to a simple conclusion. He's a very good player against SL but below average against the others. So, we should play him against SL but that's about all. And no, quoting Farhat-type comparables don't count.
    Last edited by taaveez; 27th June 2010 at 03:32.

  51. #451
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    Shoaib Malik has got a lot of chances but is not performing. To keep his place in the team he needs to play with better technique and improved foot work. He has to perform to keep his place in the team.

  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBowler
    Look over the stats Anwaar has provided.
    There are few more.

    ODI Stats and comparison:
    #231
    #281
    #283
    #285
    #287

    #327


    Below is already discussed in detail in other thread.
    Here is the comparison between SM and YK in test at same number of tests:

    Shoaib Malik overall 29 1517 148* 36.11 2 19 4/42 63.21 0 16 0

    Younis Khan filtered 28 1680 153 37.33 5 1 1/47 139.00 0 31 0

    SM played 29 while after 28 tests YK had the same average.

    If YK could continue his career as a test player with avg of 37 then why not apply same criteria to Malik.

    SM AVG YK AVG

    After 5 Matches 24.20 25.11
    After 10 Matches 36.14 45.92
    After 15 Matches 39.90 37.45
    After 20 Matches 38.03 44.80
    After 25 Matches 35.73 40.17
    After 26 Matches 38.72 38.97
    After 27 Matches 35.57 38.27
    After 28 Matches 36.00 37.33
    After 29 Matches 36.11 38.68

  53. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by asimmatloob
    Shoaib Malik has got a lot of chances but is not performing. To keep his place in the team he needs to play with better technique and improved foot work. He has to perform to keep his place in the team.
    Reasonable advice, but 29 tests in 10 years is not good enough chances.

  54. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    AJ, it's very unfair (in fact dishonesty) to exclude some's 100. But I will do it for you. Ok?

    Here are other tests:

    38,0
    39* (Pakistan was out at 90) made 43% of Pakistan's score alone. and 6 in next inngs.

    Average 40.33 in first two test matches. (This is after excluding his century)
    Is that right?

    Pick up your calculator and do your 40.33 again.

    And write 'Sorry' to AJ in front of us all once you are ready.

  55. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Shoaib Malik overall 29 1517 148* 36.11 2 19 4/42 63.21 0 16 0

    Younis Khan filtered 28 1680 153 37.33 5 1 1/47 139.00 0 31 0

    SM played 29 while after 28 tests YK had the same average.

    If YK could continue his career as a test player with avg of 37 then why not apply same criteria to Malik.

    SM AVG YK AVG

    After 5 Matches 24.20 25.11
    After 10 Matches 36.14 45.92
    After 15 Matches 39.90 37.45
    After 20 Matches 38.03 44.80
    After 25 Matches 35.73 40.17
    After 26 Matches 38.72 38.97
    After 27 Matches 35.57 38.27
    After 28 Matches 36.00 37.33
    After 29 Matches 36.11 38.68
    Now, this is a better argument. Although still fraught with some issues. Extrapolation is usually not very convincing, but I'll give you this one for your creativity.

  56. #456
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    To taveez,
    1- The same "excuse" was given here on PP to shoot down Sachin and Sehwag and received warm welcome by PPers.(was posted by our very own Jeera Blade, with qualification, What I did, just removed that qualification)
    2- Blaming him of remaining not out?
    3- Draw...Should be extremely proud of that we secured a "Draw" at last.

    4-5-6-7-8-9 are actually one point, what a waste of numbers (may b u trying to increase your point average). This data set is about averages in 4th innings and never claimed that it would give you win.
    So your counter argument is mis-directed.

    10- So you saying that scoring in 4th innings in subcontinent is easy? Then we should see the same pattern emerging in other Subcontinent players. But unfortunately we don't.


    Now back to your hunch that Pakistan would more likely to lose when he bats in 4th innings, maybe it has some truth as Pakistan team as a whole suck, so let me restate "Pakistan is more likely to lose if SM(or any other pakistani player) bats in 4th (or 1st, 2nd and 3rd) inning.


    Joke aside, Malik is yet to get out in 4th innings in test matches which Pak won. I never quoted as sample set was too small.


    I guess, it's about time to shed baseless hatred and stop taking refuge in phony excuses and start accepting facts on face value without any grudges. Its hard thing to do, can u?

  57. #457
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    uote:
    Originally Posted by Amjid Javed
    Maliks average was inflatted by a hundred in final inns of last test when series was over. Where was he in other 5 inns when team needed a contribution?

    Just throwing random stats with out looking into real contribution of a player in series is a bit meaningless!

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AJ, it's very unfair (in fact dishonesty) to exclude some's 100. But I will do it for you. Ok?

    Here are other tests:

    38,0
    39* (Pakistan was out at 90) made 43% of Pakistan's score alone. and 6 in next inngs.

    Average 40.33 in first two test matches. (This is after excluding his century)


    Taveez has mentioned typo/miscalculation. (mostly typo on windows calculator.exe)
    Its 27.66, I am sorry if it caused anyone trauma.

    But be clear that excluding his century and SM was the highest scorer in that series for Pakistan. His Avg of series was 52.40
    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 04:15.

  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    Is that right?

    Pick up your calculator and do your 40.33 again.

    And write 'Sorry' to AJ in front of us all once you are ready.
    - Addressed.

  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    Now, this is a better argument. Although still fraught with some issues. Extrapolation is usually not very convincing, but I'll give you this one for your creativity.
    That piece was for a worshiper.

  60. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    To taveez,
    1- The same "excuse" was given here on PP to shoot down Sachin and Sehwag and received warm welcome by PPers.(was posted by our very own Jeera Blade, with qualification, What I did, just removed that qualification)
    2- Blaming him of remaining not out?
    3- Draw...Should be extremely proud of that we secured a "Draw" at last.

    4-5-6-7-8-9 are actually one point, what a waste of numbers (may b u trying to increase your point average). This data set is about averages in 4th innings and never claimed that it would give you win.
    So your counter argument is mis-directed.

    10- So you saying that scoring in 4th innings in subcontinent is easy? Then we should see the same pattern emerging in other Subcontinent players. But unfortunately we don't.


    Now back to your hunch that Pakistan would more likely to lose when he bats in 4th innings, maybe it has some truth as Pakistan team as a whole suck, so let me restate "Pakistan is more likely to lose if SM(or any other pakistani player) bats in 4th (or 1st, 2nd and 3rd) inning.


    Joke aside, Malik is yet to get out in 4th innings in test matches which Pak won. I never quoted as sample set was too small.


    I guess, it's about time to shed baseless hatred and stop taking refuge in phony excuses and start accepting facts on face value without any grudges. Its hard thing to do, can u?
    1. I don't care what someone else said or did. I presented to you my own opinion.
    2. Nope, identifying such a small sample set which is inflating the average. Only 5 completed innings. Only once crossing the average of those innings.
    3. It was a very negative 4th inning. About 400 and change to win - we actually gave that a proper chase in all Australian matches. You're not going to win if you don't try. Only 4 wickets down - hardly anything to be proud of.
    4-9. Wrong. Your argument was that Malik had a high 4th inning average so he was better than the greats who failed the test. The reality is, you play for your team not to pad your average but to win matches. Cricket isn't about individuals - it's about a team, and the team wins or loses, not the individual players.

    So, Malik can have a 300 average in the 4th inning, but if that doesn't win us the game, it's only academic. Greats don't need to pass this irrelevant test. I'm not devaluing Malik's effort at all - he has been very valuable, but that's where I'd stop. I wouldn't use it to belittle better batsmen.

    And, no, Pakistan is NOT more likely to lose if any other player batted in the 4th inning. If Malik's case was worse than the average, someone else's was better - that's how averages work. As an example, in the matches Taufeeq Umar played in the 4th inning, our W-L-D record has been 6-3-1:
    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...und;view=match

    As far as Malik remaining not out in 4th-inning winning matches, it's pretty simple to explain. If you win a match while batting in the 4th inning, you'll not be bowled out. In fact, taking the average of how the games should be won in the 4th inning, a random sample match should be won with 9/2 = 4.5 wickets down. Malik's typical position is #5 and #6, so he's the most likely to be on the crease when we win.

    I'm not the one dealing in baseless hatred and phony excuses. I'm only countering the 4th inning argument. Nothing personal against Malik - it's all numbers.
    Last edited by taaveez; 27th June 2010 at 06:51.

  61. #461
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    Your other points are basically the repetition of your two main concerns.
    (1- Those runs were not contributed toward wins 2- his Average is misleadingly inflated)

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    2. Nope, identifying such a small sample set which is inflating the average. Only 5 completed innings. Only once crossing the average of those innings.
    I disagree. Its an adequate sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    So, Malik can have a 300 average in the 4th inning, but if that doesn't win us the game, it's only academic.
    It's your assumption that Malik should have won us those matches. Sorry again, these stats are RESULT NEUTRAL as I am against of such phony qualifications (like, subcontinent, vs SA, Bowlers were tired, Leggie was missing, Match was a dead rubber, lost us match, negative inngs, in other words called manipulation of data). It's not Malik's job alone to win us matches. Period.

    When I would be comparing countries I assure you I'll present Result Based Stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    I'm not the one dealing in baseless hatred and phony excuses. I'm only countering the 4th inning argument. Nothing personal against Malik - it's all numbers.
    No you are not countering 4th innings argument, instead presenting a related but entirely different argument by un-naturally joining personal performances with Team Result, even you are well aware of that there is no 1-1 co-relation between them.

    If you have reservations against "inflation of averages" (like we all have) then again its a different topic for some other time. ATM, we have average as bench mark.


    Punch line:

    SM got the third highest 4th innings average in world and highest among Pakistani.

    Last edited by Black Zero; 27th June 2010 at 07:34.

  62. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Your other points are basically the repetition of your two main concerns.
    No, they are not. Selective quotes = no answer to the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    I disagree. Its an adequate sample.
    You can continue to disagree. It won't change the fact for a second that 5 completed innings or 10 overall innings in 10 years is an inadequate sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    It's your assumption that Malik should have won us those matches. Sorry again, these stats are RESULT NEUTRAL as I am against of such phony qualifications (like, subcontinent, vs SA, Bowlers were tired, Leggie was missing, Match was a dead rubber, lost us match, negative inngs, in other words called manipulation of data). It's not Malik's job alone to win us matches. Period.
    It's Malik's job to score in both innings. It's Malik's job to maintain a test average equivalent to a good average irrespective of phony comparisons with Farhats of the world. YOU are manipulating data by posting irrelevant 4th-inning-only stats. How about this? Malik has an infinite average when playing as an opener in the 4th-inning. Looks better?

    Bottom line is, this is starting to sound like my neighborhood Ford salesman who tries hard to sell me an irrelevant feature when the simple truth is, it's a crappy car. Malik has a 36 average in tests. It's mediocre, yawning, and won't get him in any other team in the world except for Pakistan and the minnows. He has an inflated 4th inning average that means diddly squat unless you link the 4th inning to something. Some sort of a result or an established performance metric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    No you are not countering 4th innings argument, instead presenting a related but entirely different argument by un-naturally joining personal performances with Team Result, even you are well aware of that there is no 1-1 co-relation between them.
    I'm debunking your 4th-inning criteria. YOU have come up with the claim that the 4th-inning average with 5 completed innings is a barometer of some sort. Prove to me where it is used as a tool to measure performance. You need to link the 4th inning with a performance metric for us to sympathize. Just saying it's a test of mental strength or other subjective /vague stuff is a waste of everyone's time. Your next argument could be, averages during the afternoon session on the third day of a test. So what?

    So, again, I'm debunking your 4th-inning artificial criteria - I challenge you to quote for us any reliable source of such measurement in cricket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Punch line:
    SM got the third highest 4th innings average in world and highest among Pakistani
    Try this:

    SM has a mediocre test average and an artificially inflated 4th-inning average that actually results in us losing matches.

  63. #463
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    All those supporting SM should consider either counseling or medications to treat their paranoia and hallucinations.

  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    Malik has an infinite average when playing as an opener in the 4th-inning. Looks better?
    By the way Malik really got infinite average in 4th inning when Pakistan won.

    Re: Your other issues I have already addressed twice. We are now just doing spamming, nothing constructive.


    Anyway, why not for change you have a take on :
    Pasting from #388

    As promised I am back after Asia Cup.

    I hope you still remember the first dataset when we established that Malik has the exact same test career path as of YK.

    I will provide series of data set, the first one is to counter the Myth of Malik's vulnerability against new ball.


    Malik's vulnerability against new ball


    When I compared ALL the OPENERS ever played for Pakistan with Shoaib Malik. (qualification at least 5 tests as opener)

    Malik averages higher than:

    Hanif Muhammad
    Shoaib Muhammad
    Toufeeq Umer
    Mohsin Khan
    Majid Khan
    Nazar Muhammad
    Salman Butt
    Farhat
    Muddasar Nazir
    Aamer Sohail
    Sadiq Muhammad
    Rameez
    &
    Ijaz butt


    Infact, Malik averages higher than everybody else except Saeed Anwar and Tasleem Arif.

    Malik's tests include against WI, Eng, SL, Ind.

  65. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Khan
    All those supporting SM should consider either counseling or medications to treat their paranoia and hallucinations.
    I think you are correct about hallucination for SM supporters.
    But I think YK worshipers are best candidate for Paranoia, but then I am not doctor and you r.

  66. #466
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    @Anwaar SM whether he is good in Opening role or not ..but he definitely is a must for 1st down i mean @ 3rd in current squad....very good player of spin and very effective strike rate ...can rotate the strike quiet easily ....overall all the qualities of 1st down batsman ...but i don't know whats fear him to come @ 3rd.....yes if YK is present then he is best @ 3rd ....but in YK's absence he need to come @ 3rd for the sake of teams interest...

  67. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind_quad
    @Anwaar SM whether he is good in Opening role or not ..but he definitely is a must for 1st down i mean @ 3rd in current squad....very good player of spin and very effective strike rate ...can rotate the strike quiet easily ....overall all the qualities of 1st down batsman ...but i don't know whats fear him to come @ 3rd.....yes if YK is present then he is best @ 3rd ....but in YK's absence he need to come @ 3rd for the sake of teams interest...
    I agree. With no YK, time for Malik to make or break his career. No hiding from the seaming wickets, the team needs you and time he steps up to 3. As Anwaar so believes that he will go onto average what YK is, so I would like to see him in such a role.


    No one likes me cause I am a Paul Heyman guy.

  68. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    I agree. With no YK, time for Malik to make or break his career. No hiding from the seaming wickets, the team needs you and time he steps up to 3. As Anwaar so believes that he will go onto average what YK is, so I would like to see him in such a role.
    and i heard it from PP or somewhere that he refused to come @3 intentionally
    after inspecting pitch condition..... he need to show some courage if he want to expand his career with Pakistani team..

  69. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Malik's vulnerability against new ball


    When I compared ALL the OPENERS ever played for Pakistan with Shoaib Malik. (qualification at least 5 tests as opener)

    Malik averages higher than:

    Hanif Muhammad
    Shoaib Muhammad
    Toufeeq Umer
    Mohsin Khan
    Majid Khan
    Nazar Muhammad
    Salman Butt
    Farhat
    Muddasar Nazir
    Aamer Sohail
    Sadiq Muhammad
    Rameez
    &
    Ijaz butt


    Infact, Malik averages higher than everybody else except Saeed Anwar and Tasleem Arif.

    Malik's tests include against WI, Eng, SL, Ind.[/COLOR]
    I wouldn't compare Malik's opening with anyone before the 2000s.

    Players like Majid, Hanif, Sadiq, Mohsin, and Mudassar had to face the likes of Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Croft, and others with the new ball - and without any current-era batting protection.

    Even Ramiz, Sohail, and Anwer were facing Ambrose, Walsh, and Bishop in their prime opening years.

    On the other hand, Malik got to face Powell, Best, et al with full protection and at home. So, it's not a fair comparison.

    Apples to apples, you should compare Malik with S Butt, Y Hameed, T Umar, and Farhat. Again, the sample size is way too small for Malik but at least it's in a near-continuous space.

    To avoid "data manipulation" by pitches, opponents, home/way, I'm going to compare Butt's stats with Malik's stats in only the matches they opened together.

    These are tests # 1770, 1772, 1774, 1781, and 1782. This sample set is only missing two matches in Malik's entire test opening universe.

    The stats are:

    Malik: 7 innings, 188 runs, 26.86 average
    Butt: 7 innings, 367 runs, 52.43 average

    So, in these 7 innings, Butt had a better average.

    Malik opened with Hameed in one test and had a better average.

    Malik opened with Farhat in one test and had a better average.

    So, based on this, I'd conclude Butt is a better opener than Malik, who is better than Hameed and Farhat. HOWEVER, I've already qualified it by saying that the sample sizes are inadequate. I'm not a fan of linear extrapolations, so until I see Malik facing a new ball in a similar number of appearances as other openers, I won't be able to conclude one way or the other.

    All said and done, if he thinks he can open better than the current openers, he should volunteer. This will help solve one of our major long-running problems. (Assuming he bowls only part-time, as - let's face it - he hasn't got twatson's six-pack fitness yet.)

  70. #470
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    To counter the allegations that tracks were so flat.
    So here is the comparison among 4 openers who played on same playing conditions:

    On Random: Each opener has a chance of 25% to come 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th position in comparison.

    Lets see how SM fare in this criteria:


    Malik
    1st 2nd total
    13 64 77
    39 18 57
    27 26 53
    13 148 161

    2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    14 26 40
    74 122 196
    26 50 76
    69 34 103

    Opposition 1st Opener
    1st 2nd total
    33 15 48
    193 5 198
    48 0 48
    0 72 72

    Opposition 2nd Opener
    1st 2nd total
    25 49 74
    9 23 32
    12 0 12
    6 13 19


    Malik's position
    1st
    3rd
    2nd
    1st

    SM stood first in 50%, hence the allegations proved to be nothing just #$%%.

  71. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    I wouldn't compare Malik's opening with anyone before the 2000s.
    Pure nostalgia

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    Players like Majid, Hanif, Sadiq, Mohsin, and Mudassar had to face the likes of Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Croft, and others with the new ball - and without any current-era batting protection.

    Even Ramiz, Sohail, and Anwer were facing Ambrose, Walsh, and Bishop in their prime opening years.

    On the other hand, Malik got to face Powell, Best, et al with full protection and at home. So, it's not a fair comparison.

    Apples to apples, you should compare Malik with S Butt, Y Hameed, T Umar, and Farhat. Again, the sample size is way too small for Malik but at least it's in a near-continuous space.
    Excuses, mourning, excuses , mourning.
    I hate lame excuses and seems like you have nothing else to offer in response.

    its apple to apple (career average as an opener vs career average as an opener)

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    To avoid "data manipulation" by pitches, opponents, home/way, I'm going to compare Butt's stats with Malik's stats in only the matches they opened together.

    These are tests # 1770, 1772, 1774, 1781, and 1782. This sample set is only missing two matches in Malik's entire test opening universe.

    The stats are:

    Malik: 7 innings, 188 runs, 26.86 average
    Butt: 7 innings, 367 runs, 52.43 average

    So, in these 7 innings, Butt had a better average.

    Malik opened with Hameed in one test and had a better average.

    Malik opened with Farhat in one test and had a better average.

    So, based on this, I'd conclude Butt is a better opener than Malik, who is better than Hameed and Farhat.
    Your data would make sense only if SB had played only those matches and/or having career avg of 52.43. Unfortunately this is not the case, he averages 31.52 well below Malik's average so your point is meaning less.


    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    HOWEVER, I've already qualified it by saying that the sample sizes are inadequate. I'm not a fan of linear extrapolations, so until I see Malik facing a new ball in a similar number of appearances as other openers, I won't be able to conclude one way or the other.
    I doubt thats your real thinking as you reduced the sample size from the original sample set when you felt suitable (re: avg 52). Very funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by taaveez
    All said and done, if he thinks he can open better than the current openers, he should volunteer. This will help solve one of our major long-running problems. (Assuming he bowls only part-time, as - let's face it - he hasn't got twatson's six-pack fitness yet.)
    I do not know, arguably he is THE Most Fit player in pakistan squad. I dont know what he thinks about playing @3 or as an opener. His or anyone's else batting place doesn't interest me.
    Moreover, I have nothing to do with his future performances/failures until they materialized.

  72. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind_quad
    @Anwaar SM whether he is good in Opening role or not ..but he definitely is a must for 1st down i mean @ 3rd in current squad....very good player of spin and very effective strike rate ...can rotate the strike quiet easily ....overall all the qualities of 1st down batsman ...but i don't know whats fear him to come @ 3rd.....yes if YK is present then he is best @ 3rd ....but in YK's absence he need to come @ 3rd for the sake of teams interest...

    Well you diagnosed the issue yourself

    ".yes if YK is present then he is best @ 3rd ....but in YK's absence he need to come"

    Do not you think it's unfair to empty his #3 once YK is back?
    He said to SAJ, that he was ready to bat at #3 but he wanted long-run at that slot.

    To me its a fair thing to say.

  73. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Well you diagnosed the issue yourself

    ".yes if YK is present then he is best @ 3rd ....but in YK's absence he need to come"

    Do not you think it's unfair to empty his #3 once YK is back?
    He said to SAJ, that he was ready to bat at #3 but he wanted long-run at that slot.

    To me its a fair thing to say.

    yeah u r rite ...but i said in the context when he refused to play @3.....if he is ready to play there then its well n good ...and very rightly said must be given long run ..

  74. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    I agree. With no YK, time for Malik to make or break his career. No hiding from the seaming wickets, the team needs you and time he steps up to 3. As Anwaar so believes that he will go onto average what YK is, so I would like to see him in such a role.
    First, I do not believe so.
    As I have no knowledge of future.
    What I said was that he got the potential of reaching avg of around 45 at the end of 59 tests. At best its a guess.

    He may very well go south.

    Assure him of permanent slot 3, and he would take it.
    On temp basis, anyone would say, "no, thank you.", until its players like yasir or faisal who got no slot to start with.

  75. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    I agree. With no YK, time for Malik to make or break his career. No hiding from the seaming wickets, the team needs you and time he steps up to 3. As Anwaar so believes that he will go onto average what YK is, so I would like to see him in such a role.
    Fair thing to say. I agree.

    Let's see how he goes.

  76. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind_quad
    and i heard it from PP or somewhere that he refused to come @3 intentionally
    after inspecting pitch condition..... he need to show some courage if he want to expand his career with Pakistani team..
    There was a side match in NZL and he was accused of faking injury to avoid the match on green pitch.

  77. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    There was a side match in NZL and he was accused of faking injury to avoid the match on green pitch.
    This guy having all the qualities to b successful @ no. 3 slot...but this
    type of incident is really hampering his chances ....In today's world ppl remember somebody from his bad doing more than his goods...

    and the amount of experience he having i m sure he'll be successful @ that position ....but yeah must be given a long run there.....everybody needs stability ...but the kind of ability he having he can play @ any slot so captain n coaches definitely thinking of him as a floater ...i think this is what not work for him coz he himself want a fixed position ...so he need to be given a long @ fixed slot ..it'll be good for him as well as for team...!!!!

  78. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Pure nostalgia

    Excuses, mourning, excuses , mourning.
    I hate lame excuses and seems like you have nothing else to offer in response.
    I see nothing constructive in your posts other than data manipulation to your advantage. Feels like you just signed up to watch cricket a couple of years ago, and have no idea how comparing averages across eras is foolish. When you meet your great grandfather in the after life, be sure to mention to him how he was the most unfit person in the family as he moved from point A to point B at only 5km/hr while you did it at 120 km/hr - three times a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    Your data would make sense only if SB had played only those matches and/or having career avg of 52.43. Unfortunately this is not the case, he averages 31.52 well below Malik's average so your point is meaning less.
    No, your extrapolation is astonishingly naive. A person of even a small iota of statistical understanding would know it's wrong and, frankly, stupid to extrapolate from 5 data points to 50+ data points. Not just the sample size isn't enough but also the relationship/function is very different in different parts of the curve. I've given you apples to apples comparison. There's nothing that you can offer me with your current analysis that will sway this comparison. Yours is naive, mine is logical. I'd love to reverse this, but I see no chance given how you've been putting forth your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    I doubt thats your real thinking as you reduced the sample size from the original sample set when you felt suitable (re: avg 52). Very funny.
    You must have some reading comprehension issues. I already qualified my 52 average analysis with the sample size issue. How difficult is it for you to read?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwaar
    I do not know, arguably he is THE Most Fit player in pakistan squad. I dont know what he thinks about playing @3 or as an opener. His or anyone's else batting place doesn't interest me.
    Moreover, I have nothing to do with his future performances/failures until they materialized.
    I must tell you. Your analysis all across is seriously lacking and based purely on naive extrapolations. If you were at a weather station and saw 3 days of upcoming rain and 1 day of sunshine, you'd predict 22.5 days of rain in the month and 7.5 days of sunshine. If you were an analyst and saw Google's earning increase by 50% in the latest quarter to $2BN, you'd predict the earnings to be $15BN in 5 years. And if you owned a gas station and saw crude oil prices increase by $1 to $80, you'd predict the crude oil price to be $170 in three months. This, my friend, is what you've been doing in this thread. Pity.

  79. #479
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    ^ C- and thats very generous of me to give this grade to your critique.
    You failed to pin point any flaw in the data set except the possibility of the small sample size.
    But again you failed to establish it.
    You didn't even try to explore "what could be a good sample size in this scenario" cause of negative (mein naa manoo) mind set.
    Last edited by Black Zero; 29th June 2010 at 03:07.

  80. #480
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    SM filtered
    7 426 148* 42.60 1
    SB filtered 2003-2005
    7 507 122 36.21 2
    Last edited by Black Zero; 29th June 2010 at 17:30.


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